Transcription
I've actually wanted to have this
conversation with you um before the last
pump with micro strategy micro
strategies has been doing crazy numbers
but I mean of course it's come down a
little bit I think this is really what
shows people that we are convicted
because
of the the
fundamental stuff not not just the
numbers not just the price the most
important thing that I want you to teach
my audience is how to conceptualize mic
strategy how
to help them help them understand it a
little bit better is there is there
anything you want to maybe start with
any anything they want to go into
first yeah absolutely and it's been a
really exciting day I mean you get
Bitcoin breaking over 100,000 last night
I mean everyone's it's a big milestone
right people have been waiting for that
for a very long time and obviously micro
strategy is going to become a really
significant topic out there across the
internet and on most of the mainstream
media channels as well
just because they've been so in front of
this entire move that they saw what
Bitcoin could be long before most of the
general public ever did so I think we're
going to start seeing a significant
amount of coverage start coming up
Beyond just what we've all been doing
out here on X but it is a little tough
for people to conceptualize this trade
I've I've seen this be a very difficult
concept for people to grasp and I
understand it because it's a big
departure from what traditional finances
Ty typically shown Us in terms of how
you're going to value a company and
that's what people struggle with
everyone seems to understand that they
buy Bitcoin the Bitcoin goes on the
balance sheet Bitcoin goes up micro
strategy does well right people can
grasp that but what I think that a lot
of people are missing is looking at how
do you if you were going to take the
micro strategy Playbook and apply it to
your personal life what does that look
like I find that's usually the bridge
people need to Gap to understand what's
happening here and so what I've been
trying to help people with is if you
look at your own personal finances right
you've essentially got two categories
that you're going to focus on one is
going to be your income right your
salary from your business whatever that
is you've got the income side the other
side is going to be your net worth or
your balance sheet and corporations are
really no different right there's a lot
of fancy terms that fly around for all
this stuff but they've got an income
statement the money that they make the
money that they keep and they've got a
balance sheet which makes up the
shareholder Equity of the company
so if you look at micro strategy like
you were putting it through the lens of
your personal life what you've got to
make the shift in your mind of doing is
going from what traditionally we've been
told which is focus on the income make
your income higher right get to 100,000
a year get to $200,000 a year everyone's
been kind of conditioned that income is
the metric for success and that's how
you generate wealth but that's not
necessarily always the case because
while yes that side's very important and
particularly for the early stages and
this is the same for companies but in
your personal life it's very important
to focus on that income component early
I always say for at least the first
decade you should hyperfocus on getting
that higher because that's what's going
to build the assets that end up on your
balance sheet and micro strategy was the
same they started with the bi software
business they put everything they had
into growing that for a long time it
kind of stalled out but they built a
really good business that was providing
them with a of income they just didn't
have any other ideas for what to do with
it so the shift that they made is what a
lot of people can start to make
mid-career which is you start to focus
on maximizing the assets you have on the
balance sheet and how do you use the
strength of your balance sheet to
generate wealth versus spending all your
time focusing on your salary getting a
raise cutting your expenses to increase
your take-home pay it's that shift in
mindset that is what micro strategy is
doing in the corporate world they
shifted from okay we're not going to put
all of our focus and energy into just
growing our software business they're
obviously still focused on it it helped
to drive the whole strategy early on but
what they saw was we have a remarkably
strong balance sheet we're unencumbered
we don't have a lot of debt that gives
us a lot of
flexibility so instead of trying to
maximize and only show earnings through
net income or earnings per share they're
saying how do we accumulate more assets
on the balance sheet let's use what we
have there that's a tool for us and
let's start deploying those assets more
intelligently so that we can capture
value on the other side of the equation
that most people skip over so it's very
similar to people that have a lot of
Investments where all of a sudden if
you've got those Investments focused in
the right places you can very quickly
start to get to a point where you
Eclipse your income and that's what
micro strategy is doing now they've
leveraged that power and their focus has
shift to Let's deploy these assets the
best way we know how they chose Bitcoin
for that as the asset that's the
foundation and let's start to generate
value there now they've got some other
things that are a little unique to them
obviously right because they can
interact with the corporate with the
capital markets which is where you hear
all these terms like using convertible
debt using leverage using the ATM right
they've got all these tools in their
toolbox that they can use to push this
strategy forward forward and focus on
their target which for them is building
more Bitcoin per share and for your
audience I don't know how how focused
they've been on micro strategy but
essentially what that means is you're
looking at the total number of Bitcoin
that micro strategy holds divided by the
total number of shares that could be
outstanding it includes shares that
aren't issued yet so that's the metric
that they've chosen to focus on as their
kpi and so what micro strategy is doing
is they're looking at using all the
tools in their toolbox to find the best
ways to create the most value on that
balance sheet back to their
shareholders and that's a big shift for
corporate finance because that earnings
per share metric that's a tough one to
break because that's how the markets
have have focused in particular on
growth companies for decades now it's
all about that growth trajectory in your
earnings per share but what people Miss
in that is that earnings per share it's
a great number what they forget is that
you have to constantly be growing so
that Capital that comes in that income
you made in earnings per share has to be
redeployed almost immediately it doesn't
stay with the company because they have
to continuously invest in growing the
operations of the business so that they
continue to show the market higher and
higher Revenue numbers bottom line
numbers ultimately earnings per share
numbers and if they don't hit those
metrics
they start to lose their status as a
growth company and that starts to crater
on the valuations so those are the
things that a lot of people struggle
with in the early days when they're
trying to figure out what is micro
strategy what are they doing and they're
really twisting people's minds away from
the earnings per share and they're
saying we're generating a yield as well
our yield is done in Bitcoin but the
difference with our yield versus your
earnings per share is rather than having
to redeploy that yield out to go spend
money on sales forces and building
facilities and doing
R&D the yield we capture lives on the
balance sheet indefinitely now that's
value that's captured that lives in the
financials and can continue to perform
quarter over quarter for the
shareholders so I think that's a really
big shift for the markets to digest and
I think it's going to take a little bit
of time but the attention they're
getting now people are going to start
catching on quick yeah I definitely
agree I I think you you hit a lot of
great points there uh focusing on the
focusing on increasing your income and
then decreasing expenses and it's
putting all the difference into
something that can give you basically
passive income that that's the life hack
right that that's the hack where you get
all your time back that that's something
that I've been focusing on a lot on on I
was focusing on a lot on Twitter uh over
time I transition to just posting about
Bitcoin posting a little bit about micro
strategy here and there I post I do my
my a does have a pretty decent
understanding of the the um of the
Bitcoin per share I've been explaining
it I I maybe they've been watching my
videos maybe they haven't but can you
can you explain to somebody let's say
for example if they had a choice between
buying a company that already has
a business that's operating and doing
really well like Microsoft for example
instead of Microsoft why should they buy
micro strategy why is because Microsoft
already has this business we already
know that they're going to continue to
have these customers these customers are
already working with them they provide a
product that people need and they'll
probably need for a very long time so
why should anybody go with investing in
micro strategy over Microsoft over Apple
over pretty much every other company out
there yeah well for starters to invest
in micro strategy you have to have a
foundational belief in the success of
Bitcoin long term right that's very
foundational to this investment because
that's essentially what their whole
thesis is here we're watching the
emergence of a new asset into the global
markets and we're starting to see that
penetrate into all different areas of
Our Lives we're starting to see it now
creep into politics within the US which
is a much bigger deal than people really
thought it was going to be because the
US currently holds the reserve currency
of the world so for them to start
discussing an alternative asset like
Bitcoin is a huge development that shows
just how big Bitcoin has gotten globally
so for micro strategy that has to be
your foundational belief you have to
start there if you don't believe in
Bitcoin you know sailor says there's a
trade for everybody in micro strategy
because if you love Bitcoin it's a great
trade you can go long you can buy calls
you can do all kinds of Trades there if
you hate Bitcoin and you think it's
going to fail you've got options there
as well when we look at some of these
other companies like a Microsoft make no
mistake these are valuable companies as
well right they are so ingrained in the
lives anyone who has a corporate job has
come across a million Microsoft products
right they're a very strong company
they've built themselves this Niche
within the corporate world that's going
to be very tough to break so they've got
long-term stable growth that they've
been able to achieve and they really
understand their consumers so I don't
see any of those as being bad
Investments right there's a lot of
nuance out there in investing where you
do have a lot of people that are looking
at one investment and going all in on it
I think there's still other good options
but when you're looking at a company
like Microsoft as it pertains to a
Bitcoin strategy which has been hitting
the news recently with sailor giving his
pitch to the micro strategy or to the
Microsoft board you know it's a little
bit different because when he's pitching
Microsoft he can't pitch Microsoft the
same strategy that micro strategy can
use and the reason is is because
Microsoft is a fund Mally different and
much larger business than micro strategy
was to begin with so for micro strategy
they had to invent a new product for the
markets right and that was enhanced
volatility they were taking an asset
like Bitcoin that's already volatile
putting it on their balance sheet in a
very significant way for micro strategy
strategy to work and to be deployed for
any other company you have to have a
unique setup where you've got an
unencumbered balance sheet that you can
now skew largely in favor of holding
Bitcoin and then if you add that
additional leverage to the balance sheet
you start to get the enhanced volatility
well Microsoft's a little too big for
that type of a play but what's going to
be very important for some of those
companies is they're going to have to
look at all this cash that they're
starting to hold on to and figure out
what really is the best way that we're
going to be able to deploy this Capital
to generate value for our shareholders
and traditionally that means that
they've had to just pivot if they're out
of ideas for growing which is
essentially what a lot of these
companies are admitting they start
issuing dividends they just start giving
the money back to the shareholders
because they're saying we don't have any
better ideas to generate new value for
you so what we're going to do is we're
just going to give the money back and
they'll do that either through dividends
or they'll go buy back the shares
themselves of the stock which enhances
the shares that other people are holding
so those are the traditional signs you
start to see in companies that are
reaching that you know that scale
where it's very tough for them to grow
but now they're sitting on piles of cash
and the pitfalls with cash in the US
dollar and and currencies around the
world are pretty well known right I mean
the value is eroding out of those very
quickly and it's a very fine line that
governments are running in terms of how
they're managing their inflation numbers
so if you're a company that's holding 80
to $150 billion dollar worth of cash on
your balance sheet like some of these
Giants are you're going to start to have
a decision to make you've either got to
Dividend that out and just get rid of it
because there's no value to you holding
it and sitting on these piles of cash or
you have to look at evolving the way
that your company views the world and
that's where I think a lot of these
companies are going to start focusing
now that micro strategies shown the
success of their model is they're going
to start looking at Bitcoin with a
different lens and that lens doesn't
need to be that their company has to
change the entire being of who they are
and pivot fully into a Bitcoin treasury
company and particularly a leveraged
Bitcoin treasury company but what it
might mean is that all this excess
Capital they've got a new way to deploy
it they can get into an emerging asset
that's showing the strong signs of
adoption globally not just within the US
and they can now own a piece of that
ecosystem and so if they have cash with
nothing else to do they can buy an asset
that will continue to perform for them
and when you're talking about 80 billion
getting a return on 80 billion is a very
significant number particularly if you
start keep seeing the 29% kager that
people are projecting forward if you
start seeing those types of Returns on
80 billion doll that significant
shareholder value creation and we're
reaching the point now and particularly
since we got over that hurdle of 100,000
I think bitcoin's going to start to
become undeniable to these corporations
and if you see nation states really
adopting this like we've started to with
the brics Nations and some of these
other countries like El Salvador when
you start seeing that level of adoption
and it's working itself into the Global
Financial system it becomes a safe
investment for a company to make right
you start to see the protection that's
there it's no longer that one country
can crush the value of this asset now if
the US decides they're going to go and
put out some political attack on bitcoin
you're attack another country's currency
that's a very different thing to do than
it was when Bitcoin was just off on its
own and it wasn't being acknowledged by
countries so I think for the
corporations when you're looking at
investing in them and when they're
looking at investing in something like
Bitcoin those are the types of thought
processes that they're going to have to
work through to determine what's really
the best use case here for our
shareholders for us to continue
delivering value to them if we want to
continue to grow and be a part of this
conversation and not just shift and say
we're going to run a good business until
it's no longer good anymore and then
we'll disappear like so many companies
before us they got a short window now to
make that
pivot yeah uh you made some really great
points there I made some notes on my
phone I was just looking down on my
phone uh so you said how you need to
have the fundamental understanding of
where Bitcoin is going to to first of
all just believe where micro strategy is
going if you don't understand Bitcoin
you're not going to understand micro
strategy so 99% of the world maybe 99
maybe maybe less maybe a little bit 95%
of the world has no idea where Bitcoin
is going so they're they just don't
don't get it
so you you also you also mentioned how
um micro strategy is creating a new
product and you mentioned enhanced
volatility can you explain enhanced
volatility and how the new investor
who's coming into the market and they're
trying to see what what this is they're
they're used to these digital products
they're used to these physical products
they're not used to a company coming out
and basically creating a brand new
market they're used to companies just
either um improving a market maybe
providing new products and and just
improving on a product that's already
existing I think micro strategy like you
said created a brand new product that
nobody else has and and they have this
Monopoly can you explain what you mean
by enhanced
volatility yeah absolutely and it is an
interesting discussion because what you
have to realize about what micro
strategy is doing is they're being very
methodical about how they're engineering
this right and what they're doing is
they're looking at the segments of the
capital markets that have a lot of
capital to deploy who can't come to
bitcoin and they're finding out ways to
create products that these institutions
can buy and micro strategy becomes the
loading dock for that Capital to enter
into the Bitcoin markets so what these
people need right and we're talking
about you know like hedge funds you'll
hear the words convertible Arbitrage
desk right well what those convertible
arbd Des can do is they can buy
convertible debt but that's really it
that's the whole Charter they're only
allowed to trade that so when you look
at the other corporations that have been
putting out convertible debt offerings
the volatility on their stock which is
essentially the significance of the
moves up and down right and that's an
important point up and down is very
so when we talk about volatility a
normal stock is probably going to have a
v of 20 to 30 maybe right if it's got
some volatility to it Bitcoin is usually
going to be like a 50 to 60 micro
strategy has recently been sitting at
around
110 and what that means is that Stock's
going to move significantly in both
directions well if all you can do is buy
convertible
bonds what these people need to be able
to do is do what's called trading the
Delta it's called Delta hedging
and so Delta is essentially the
sensitivity of the bond to the price
movements of the stock so if you've got
a 70 Delta that means that it's going to
move about 70% as much as the stock is
going to move and what's important about
that is they need the volatility to go
both ways so that during the course of
holding this Bond they can capture the
movements right if you think of it very
simplistically they're really just using
a sell High buyback low methodology
throughout the cycle of holding these
bonds they can do it because the bond
has a call option to it where it
essentially becomes like Equity the
higher the underlying share price goes
so what these guys are hoping for is
that they get these really strong
run-ups in the share price they can
start shorting the stock right that's
how they put their Hedges on is they
actually short the underlying Equity so
they're selling the shares that are
essentially tied to their call option as
the price goes higher and higher and
then they want that volatility to drive
it the other direction now they want it
to go down and when it does that the
bond sensitivity is lower the lower that
price goes right so the stock could keep
moving down at a rapid Pace but because
that bond has a par value it slows down
its descent and so they're going to be
able to buy back those shares close out
those short positions at the lower
prices so they're capturing that
inefficiency in the between how bonds
move and how the equity moves that's
what those guys are doing it's a more
sophisticated discussion than that right
there's a lot that goes on behind the
scenes but that's the general overview
of it but what's important is that those
institutional level Capital allocators
have a charter that only allows them to
buy convertible bonds so what Michael
sailor figured out is that capital is
never coming to bitcoin on its own right
they can't do it part of their Charter
is not buy convertible bonds or buy
Bitcoin they can buy convertible bonds
so what he started doing was taking this
Bitcoin that they've got on their
balance sheet and he's providing a
mechanism to securitize bitcoin to these
institutional investors and he's giving
them an onramp to get exposure to
bitcoin so when they're trading bonds
that are trading more volatile than
Bitcoin itself sometimes that's a whole
different level of profitability that
convertible Bond Trad
can achieve than they can do with a
stock that doesn't really move all that
often and you're seeing that in these
convertible bonds and how quickly
they're reaching their conversion prices
like I I do a tracking pretty much every
day at the end of the market close where
I'm tracking all the convertible bonds
that micro strategies issued and there's
Clauses in there where these guys can
convert those bonds into Equity well
before the maturity date it's called the
130% clause which basically means if the
stock trades 130% above the conversion
price for 20 days out of a rolling
30-day period those Bond holders can now
reach out to micro strategy and convert
into shares if they want to there's
reasons why they would or wouldn't right
A lot of it depends on how far beyond
that conversion price they are because
if they're fully shorted out the equity
position of the bond there's no more
upside for them so they might just want
to convert into the shares and reset and
hope to get into the next round of
convertible bonds but what's what's
interesting with micro strategy is all
but one right just the most recent the
2029 bonds that they just released those
are the only ones not in a countdown for
early conversion three of them are
already eligible to convert those Bond
holders can call Micro strategy at any
time and say we want shares now and the
only remaining two that are in a
countdown but can't convert should be
eligible to convert by next Wednesday so
by next Wednesday you might actually
have a position on micros strategy where
five of the six convertible bonds that
they have outstanding right now are all
eligible to convert that can clear the
entire debt off the balance sheet with
the exception of the 2029 bonds if those
Bond holders elected to convert early
it's not to say that they will but it's
a possibility and it's a very unique
possibility because some of those bonds
just got issued like three months ago so
for something that you're actually
intending early on to not be able to
achieve your conversion price for 4
years years five years six years to
achieve an early conversion trigger
within you know call it sub six months
is wild in this world right that doesn't
happen very often and what that's going
to do is it gives micro strategy the
ability to delever right it takes debt
off of their balance sheet and that
gives them the ability to go back to the
capital markets and say look at how well
our bonds performed now we're going to
issue new bonds but the terms are going
to continuously turn further in our
favor and we saw that with the most
recent offering where they got a 0%
coupon rate which means they have no
interest carrying cost on those bonds
for the entire term which is very unique
but we're starting to see it more with
the Bitcoin bonds we've seen it with
some of the Bitcoin miners as well and
if he gets that debt off the balance
sheet given the fair market value of the
Bitcoin that they hold if they're lever
targeting a leverage of 25% meaning
they'll borrow at any one time 25% of
the fair market value of all the Bitcoin
they own that means he might have a lot
of space here to go out and issue more
convertible bonds in the next next
couple months so it's going to be very
interesting to see how that all plays
out so when you say that um they short
shares with their bonds does that mean
that all of the cell pressure is already
gone it means a lot of it's gone yeah so
it all depends on what the Delta of the
bond is when it's issued right so right
away when it's issued what you'll notice
during the pricing period of the bonds
which is usually a 1 to two day period
where they're taking a volume weighted
average price of the shares during that
time period most of these convertible
arbitragers they're putting on their
initial short positions and those
initial short positions could be 60% of
the shares that are associated with that
Bond so that means before that Bond
offerings even closed 60% of of the
shares associated with it might have
already been sold right because when
they convert what they're doing is
they're receiving the shares for micro
strategy but then their Brokers just
netting out their short positions so
there's a misconception out there that
when these bonds convert that there's
going to be this immediate sell pressure
in the market because all these new
Shares are coming but that's not true
that sell pressure happened all along
the path up to where they converted by
the time they're ready to convert these
shares they're going to get rid of any
Equity risk that left so they're going
to be fully short the equity position of
the shares that they're going to get so
once they get those shares they're just
netting out two positions that equals
zero so they don't have to go sell new
shares so there's a lot of fear out
there anytime that people hear that the
bonds are going to convert but it is a
little misguided because that's not the
mechanics of how it works they've been
selling all along the path so most of
that sale pressure happens early the
last you know 40% of it might happen
over a period of a year or two
but what's interesting is as the share
price gets higher there's less and less
shares that are getting tied to these
convertible Bond offerings so as the
scale continues to ramp up we might
actually see less shares even available
to get shorted with these offerings
which could also increase the volatility
right because we have to acknowledge
that the shorting that these convertible
Bond guys do and taking off the shorts
can dampen the volatility at the
extremes right they can stop a blowoff
top because now they're going to Short
short because the Deltas climbed so much
but they'll also soften the draw Downs
because when it gets drawn down they'll
start buying back and closing out their
short positions so they do have that
impact but that's probably about 80% of
the people that are buying these bonds
are going to be those convertible
Arbitrage guys you can see it in some of
the 13fs but there's also a component of
people that are getting long only
exposure and they basically want Bitcoin
exposure with cap downside right so
you're starting to see companies like
Alliance an insurance company coming and
buying these bonds they would fall into
that long only category where they want
the upside exposure to bitcoin but they
want to cap their downside right and if
they go buy Bitcoin that can't become a
part of their collateral as a company
because regulations prevent it but
corporate bonds do count so it's kind of
this you know this this gray area that
they get to play in where they can buy
convertible bonds that are tied to the
performance of Bitcoin without actually
holding the Bitcoin and they've got the
downside protection of the par value of
those Bonds in the event that they
believe bitcoin's money good at maturity
so it it's very interesting to see the
developments here in terms of who's
buying the bonds it's always interesting
when the 13fs get released to see who's
holding on to this paper because we're
seeing a bit of a shift in the profile
of who the buyers
are I'm just trying to think through
through what you're saying here so
you're saying that um would you say that
they're basically creating synthetic
Bitcoin
kind of yeah they're creating synthetic
Bitcoin exposure for sure and then and
then when micro strategy uses the
leverage they get the upside so micro
strategy gets the upside
um so who deals with the downside if bit
let's say Okay I I want to I don't want
to put you on this SP here but I've
actually been asked this question a
bunch of times what would happen to to
to all of this if bitcoin's price I
don't think it'll happen but let's say
my bitcoin's price drops 80% what would
happen to all of this so nothing until
the maturity right so one of the
misconceptions that's also out there is
everyone's looking for this Margin Call
or liquidation price that's associated
with these bonds there isn't one it's
unsecured debt there's no liquidation
price so if the price draws down the
risk that you do have with micro
strategy is really point and time risk
right you're looking at the maturity
date of whatever the nearest bond is and
your risk is a Black Swan perfectly
aligned with the maturity of the bonds
where now micro strategy has to go
redeem for cash because that call option
has no value right the bonds were busted
so now they've got to go and redeem for
cash that's when you start to get into
the conversations about well what are
they going to do in that scenario are
they going to go and sell Bitcoin
because they've stated pretty openly
that that's not their intention they're
not intending to sell any Bitcoin but
that's that's what people are looking
for so if you look at an 80% draw down
part of it depend depends on when when
does the 80% draw Down happen and how
long is the 80% draw down sustained
right because they can probably handle
you know one maturity where the Bitcoin
price is way down but let's keep in mind
the Bitcoin price has to be way down one
metric that people can look at to start
to get themselves some comfort around
this is you can take the amount of debt
that they have outstanding divided by
the number of Bitcoin that they hold and
that's kind of your break even point
right that's where your Bitcoin would
get you out of all of your debt
completely whole and right now that
price is around
18,500 a Bitcoin something in that range
so it's a big draw down from where we
are today but then you also have to
layer on the fact that micro strategy
does employ risk management tools here
right there's a reason why only one Bond
ever matures in any given year right
they use a ladder strategy where they'll
essentially put out five to six bonds
but they'll all be in different years
and as some of these mature or not
mature but convert early you'll see them
start to roll that debt further into the
future so for instance the 2027 bonds
are coming due right now that's the
closest bond to maturity that we have
well if those early convert I don't
think they'll replace another one in
2027 that's too close so you're going to
start seeing these get pushed out
further into the future and what that's
doing is it's allowing continued time
for Bitcoin to evolve as an asset class
for the use cases to show up in the
financial markets for how corporations
or nations are going to use Bitcoin and
it's giving them the ability to Rite Out
Cycles so you might have a scenario here
where they won't have a single maturity
for the entire next Bitcoin cycle right
their closest one in a little bit here
might be the
20129 which is the end of the next
four-year Bitcoin cycle if they repeat
right you always got a caveat with that
we don't know right people are mentally
preparing for it to repeat and you might
get some draw down just because people
are anticipating so they might put some
sell pressure there but if nation states
come in and start buying we're in a
whole different conversation so micro
strategies continuing to push this out
further and further the other fear that
people get into is right now when we're
looking at why micro strategy so valued
is because they're essentially a Growth
Company it's just a non-traditional
Growth Company right because they're not
focusing on the growth of the earnings
per share that's not what they're until
fby fair value accounting comes you'll
start to see the valuation of Bitcoin
start to hit the net income but on the
operations of the bi business that's not
where that growth's happening where it's
happening is in the return the Bitcoin
yield and so people are struggling with
how do you what happens if that slows
down right if the price of Bitcoin
skyrockets and they can't accumulate as
many Bitcoin as they've been able to
accumulate particularly over the last
year and maybe even the last six weeks
right where they've accumulated huge
amounts of Bitcoin what happens then and
I think a good exercise for anyone who's
going to invest in the space to do is
you have to evaluate what you think
Bitcoin looks like in five years and 10
years and you have to determine for
yourself whether you believe there's
going to be any other use cases for
Bitcoin other than storing value and
when I look at it I go well maybe the
growth slows over the next 10 years
right maybe we don't have the same
explosive growth that we're seeing now
because this seems very intentional in
terms of front running the adoption from
some of these bigger buyers who are
buyers at any price because they're
buying with a currency they create you
don't have to be price sensitive in that
scenario but when that ultimately slows
you're balancing that with is there
going to be a way to deploy it right is
there an end state for accumulating this
much Bitcoin where you now actually have
uses for this right Beyond storing value
which is kind of the core use case
that's why people compare it to Gold so
often well my argument typically is if
this is getting adopted by corporations
it's getting ingrained in Wall Street
you've got Nations that are starting to
talk about settling trade with it right
that creates so many uses for Bitcoin
that the products for that are going to
come now right because there's going to
start to be that demand for accessing
this type of of an asset well who's
going to be one of the largest holders
in the world of this asset micro
strategy so you're looking at what are
the odds in the future that there's
going to be monetization opportunities
for this now this is I'm talking a ways
off because I don't think they're out of
runway for growing the Bitcoin yield for
quite a while they've got a pretty good
thing going right now there's still not
a lot of competition in the market for
it although it's starting to show up
because people are starting to not be
able to ignore the
performance but if you run the math on
if they could even earn a quarter
percent say they've got their 400,000
Bitcoin at a million dollars of Bitcoin
if you earn a quarter percent yield on
that in a year what does that put to
your bottom line right it's close to a
billion dollars so you know when you
start to look at that if you think that
there's a scenario where there are those
use cases you've got to evaluate that in
terms of whether this is an investment
that you're willing to hold
longterm because you've got to look
further down the road than one year two
years even five years if you're starting
to look at what assets do I want to hold
for the next two decades right what does
that look like and a lot of that is
going to be tied to the evolution of
Bitcoin globally so there are risks
right nobody should be under the
illusion that there's no risks to this
strategy right but it's largely focused
on that point in time maturity risk of
the individual bonds and they manage
that a little bit with the other tool
that they have which is the ATM and what
people seem to misunderstand about the
ATM is yes they're selling their own
equity and raising Capital with it but
what's different about that is there's
no debt beyond that so it's permanent
Capital it's Capital that they capture
immediately that they move to the
balance sheet they can lower their
leverage ratio simply by using the ATM
buying more Bitcoin which increases the
fair market value of the Bitcoin on
their balance sheet so it's a delevering
tool so a company like microad they're
not tied to one specific l average ratio
I use 25% because it's kind of what I've
seen them oscillate around but the
reality for them is they're going to be
a range they're their targets probably
20 to
40% and in a bare Market you'll start
seeing that leverage climb closer up to
40% and you might see them then
deploying the ATM to bring that leverage
ratio back down right A lot of people
think they're super levered as a company
but that's just not true right they're
probably less levered than most
corporations that you see and so 25% you
know imagine you're talking to a friend
who's just bought a house and he goes
out and takes a 25% mortgage on his
house are you looking at that friend as
financially Reckless and overly levered
no right not really so that's kind of
what you've got with micro strategy
except it's bitcoin's the asset it's not
a home right so it's it's it's a little
bit different but that's how I like to
conceptualize it so people can
understand when they're saying how risky
this is that's essentially what you're
looking at you're looking at the
leverage against the ass asset that
they're holding and they're baking in a
lot of room for flexibility here so I I
have a I have a I have I have some uh I
guess some push back on that I I don't
maybe maybe I'm understanding this wrong
but you said during a bare Market they
can go back to the ATM they can um sell
shares and buy more Bitcoin increase the
value of the Bitcoin that they have
because of course when they buy Bitcoin
the price of Bitcoin goes up wouldn't
their shares no longer I mean if Bitcoin
I think if Bitcoin dropped significantly
if Bitcoin price drops maybe 80 90% I I
don't think that's going to happen but
let's say it does yep won't the won't
the um nav premium on their
stock go down meaning that they no
longer have the same effect of let's say
for example when the end when the
premium is three times so they're able
to sell these shares that are basically
worth one Bitcoin and they're able to
they're able to buy three Bitcoin and
put it on their balance sheet so they're
they're basically like like Michael said
we're selling $1 bills for $3 when when
that nav premium drops let's say it
drops down
to I don't know during a bare Market it
could drop below
one right would you would you say I mean
I I think that they would
actually I don't know how would they how
would they how would they sell more
shares at the market to well if it goes
below one they're not going to right so
this is part of a managing on the way
down right if you're talking depth
Market I agree depths of the bare Market
no they're not going to be using the ATM
if the nav is anywhere near one right
it's got to be above one for that to
continue to be a creative if it goes
below one they might look like say they
replace a lot of these bonds with 0 per.
they might still have cash flow that
comes from the operating business in the
depths of a bare Market they might go
back to traditional debt right if
they've got strength of cash flow that
might be the tool that they go back to
but it depends on where they're at on
the risk right so say we go into a bare
Market you know next year which is
supposed to be the bull market but let's
just say hypothetically for 2026 even
let's say we go into a bare Market in
2026 and Bitcoin draws down 80% and sits
there for a year right what happens to
micro strategy well the share price goes
down for sure right that's a given if
Bitcoin goes down micro strategy is
going down as well that's just a reality
but nothing tragic happens because
there's no convertible debt maturities
in all of 2026 and if they have no
coupon payments to make they're just
waiting they're in a waiting period so
then you get to 2027 well those bonds
are most likely going to convert so
there might not even be anything in 2027
so that bitcoin price can stay down 80%
for two years in a row and nothing
happens right nothing it micro strategy
doesn't go out of business they're not
getting margin called because there's no
bank they have no covenants on this debt
so it's not like you have a debt service
coverage or a collateral requirement
govern it's all insecure
so they're just waiting so your Black
Swan event is that that happens but it
happens for six years in a row right
where they've got to redeem all of these
bonds for cash and if they can't go
borrow the cash from a bank to not sell
Bitcoin and say we're just going to
borrow right now we're going to clear
this convertible debt and then when more
favorable conditions come we'll go
reissue convertible debt and we'll clear
the bank debt the traditional debt out
right they're going to be more strategic
than people think people think that
there's just this immediate need to
immediately liquidate Bitcoin and cause
this spiraling effect right which would
be a concern if you had a big seller
like micro strategy that had no options
left but to sell all their Bitcoin into
the market right that's a bad scenario
but up until then if it happens with one
of the bond offerings or even two of the
bond offerings there's other ways that
they can engineer this to not have to
sell the Bitcoin it all depends on what
that Outlook is right if something is
fundamentally broken with Bitcoin if
there's an exploit or something that
happens that's a whole different story
right clearly but if it's just that
we're in a bare market and therefore
there's not a lot they can't use the ATM
because that premium has compressed
right now it's back down to around Net
asset value or maybe even below it we've
seen that before but if that happens
they're going to look at other ways to
do this it could be that they roll the
debt maybe if they've got cash flow they
can go issue a different fixed income
product right that's not a convertible
one and they can just offer coupon
payments for five years and they can
clear out that debt but if they can
handle the cash flowing of paying those
coupons then they've effectively rolled
that problem out four or five years
right so you have to continue with that
then go to the traditional F there's
ways around it is kind of the point that
I'm trying to make is there's a lot more
creativity out there and they have a lot
more products left that they've never
offered because they've never been in
the market conditions where they've had
to offer them yet so I I think it's a
really good exercise to go through for
people right I don't I don't discourage
discussing the be case I think it's
important if you're going to have
conviction you have to stress test it
you have to think through if you're
Michael sailor and bitcoin's now trading
at $15,000 a coin what options do you
have so you got to go back to that
toolbox and go well if people aren't
lining up for the convertible debt
because now it's not
performing and you can't use the ATM
then you've got to start getting
creative and you got to look at what
else is available to me in the capital
markets how can I leverage my
relationships with these financial
institutions and use more traditional
means of taking on debt right what can I
do to get myself out of this or at least
buy myself time for a recovery to happen
in the market and I think that's a great
exercise for anyone who's going to take
a trade and have conviction in it for
the long term you have to battle test it
so you feel comfortable with what the
risks
are what do you think micro strategy
could do with all this Bitcoin in the
future they have all this Bitcoin this
Mass massive stack of it um they could I
don't know what they're going to do
maybe they could hire the best talent
maybe they can H they can think of ways
to to build Bitcoin what are your
thoughts on
that yeah you know that one's a very
interesting question because a lot of it
depends on how the institutional
adoption happens right so you've already
got some of you know we've gone through
the battles of the lenders before right
we had a lot of Bad actors in The
Lending space and I think that that
really took a toll on that industry as
whole because we did have a lot of bad
faith actors out there and you know
myself included gives me a real Sour
spot for that but when you've got
financial institutions like caner
Fitzgerald coming into the mix and
wanting to lend against Bitcoin right
well when you start to see that happen
as regulations start to change in
traditional financial institutions like
Banks if they'll allow the value of
Bitcoin to become lendable a part of
their lending base that they can now
lend against now just shifting
custody of your Bitcoin could generate
you a yield because if you can shift
that Bitcoin over to a JP Morgan and the
value of that Bitcoin you move to them
becomes a part of that equation for how
much they can lend now they can generate
a yield on that value and that yield can
trickle down to you right and so you
start to see some of the more
traditional products start to enter the
markets with that but I'm not going to
pretend that I know what all the answers
are going to be here yet right I don't
but it's something I'm starting to spend
more time thinking about because we've
finally got a Tailwind with Bitcoin
where we've got a friendly
Administration that's entering with a
lot of pro Bitcoin people that are in
very powerful positions and when you
have that you have to start relooking at
all the regulations that have been out
there that have prevented this from
being adopted into the financial system
and so I think it's going to be start to
look far more familiar to people than
what it has traditionally because
they're going to start to get the types
of accounts and the types of products
that are laid on top of Bitcoin that
they see with their traditional
Financial arrangements with their Banks
today so I kind of look at what's the
lwh hanging fruit that's going to be out
there and I think that's kind of it
right that's the loow hanging fruit is
getting into those products but what we
could also see you know there's been a
lot of people that have been pushing for
micro strategy to do things like fund
lightning channels and try to generate
additional Bitcoin that way that could
become a possibility right we might see
some different side chains that pop up
that need liquidity provided to them and
maybe micro strategy starts to fill that
role for a lot of these maybe they're
private chains for corporate for uh
Nations to trade and they need vast
amounts of Bitcoin to be providing
liquidity on these channels so that they
can trade off on their own chain that's
not mixed in with everybody else's right
I think there's going to be a lot of
opportunities here but it's probably
going to be a couple of years here
before we start to really see the
emergence of those actual products in
the market yeah I I definitely agree
it's not going to happen overnight it's
not going it's going to take some time
would you uh do you happen to have um an
estimate for where the the the nav
premium should go I mean the way that I
see it it it's markets are forward
looking we don't know what micro
strategy is going to do in the in the
future so I don't really think there is
a way to um assign a the right premium I
don't think there is a right premium at
this point because we don't know what
they're going to do Bitcoin Prov
provides optionality so you can
literally do whatever you want with it
right you can give it away you can uh
you can start I don't know these are
things that I thought maybe they could
maybe I heard somebody say this but
maybe they could do something like an
insurance company maybe they could do
something like a Bitcoin bank I mean
what are those
Worth right well and they're kind of
becoming a Bitcoin Investment Bank at
the moment right by issuing these you
know they're securitizing the Bitcoin
that they have essentially is what
they're doing with the convertible Bond
so you might see them expand the
offerings that they have through that
product line
here um
but I I guess when I look at how do you
how are how am I going to Value micro
strategy and the premium the premium has
been a moving Target all the time and
quite frankly one of the limiting
factors to the premium is Sor himself
right because they're using these
products like the ATM and issuing the
convertible bonds out there they
actually have an impact on how high that
multiple goes I kind of look at at it as
you've got the camp that looks at the
one times mnv right those are the people
that are only looking at the value of
the Bitcoin but they're excluding the
value of the capital markets activity
right here he's essentially creating a
product playground for Wall Street
Capital which is a huge amount of
capital and that volatility is what
those firms need to generate their
returns so what you're trying to do
mentally is value what is that worth
what is it worth to generate returns
through a product like your Equity or
your bonds to billions of dollars of
capital that's starved for returns these
days right there's very few companies
that are providing a lot of returns in
the markets these days right when you go
look through the S&P 500 most of the
returns is coming from like seven of
them so they're starred for returns in
their products now you've got someone
offering them volatility right through
Bitcoin securitization into these bonds
and what you're trying to do is value
that customers view on this right you
got to get yourself out of the consumer
minds or the retail mindset where we're
all hyperfocused on the value of Bitcoin
itself right that's one piece of this
what we're trying to value is what is
institutional Capital returns Worth to
Wall Street right what's going to keep
them coming back to the product that's
going to keep giving micro strategy
these favorable terms that's going to
allow them to continue to grow the scale
of their operations and that's a very
hard thing to do right I don't think
there's a formula yet for that and we're
going to find out we find out often when
it comes into like the blackout periods
where micro strategy is not going to use
the ATM leading into things like
earnings right you might have a couple
of weeks before earnings where they're
not going to use the ATM at all and
they're not going to issue a new
convertible Bond during that period so
what you have is essentially all the
inorganic sale pressure come out of the
market right because they are the
inorganic Sals pressure right so once
that selling pressure is out of the
market you start to get a sense of how
does the market actually value this
company because now the price starts
moving in that direction so if you look
right before their last earnings it
started going straight up on a 45 degree
angle right and then they did more
convertible Bond offerings he went heavy
on the ATM right he's running through
the 21 billion dollar he's got there and
so that becomes a limiting factor on how
far that can expand so I think that that
premium is going to stare step for a
while I think that you might see it you
know it was in the threes I think
eventually he might lay off and it might
expand into the fours and that'll kind
of reset a floor where it'll bounce
between four and three now there's a lot
of people out there that think it's
going to be 10 to 20 to 30 and I'm not
going to say that that's not going to
happen I don't know but I do think that
there's going to be a range that this is
going to end up settling into eventually
as people digest this this strategy and
these products that they're offering so
I'm kind of viewing it as falling
somewhere between a a two and a five and
kind of oscillating through there
depending on what bitcoin's doing I kind
of see it as a sentiment indicator for
Bitcoin because when you get really
positive feelings on bitcoin and the
price is moving and everyone's excited
you see that multiple expand and then
the minute it shakes up it compresses
again right so I think we're going to
see it up and flow quite a bit and
trying to figure out what the right mnaf
premium is going to be that's going to
be a very difficult thing to do
yeah have you considered um whether for
let's say for example for investors of
Microsoft if Microsoft doesn't buy
Bitcoin if they just say no we're not
going to go into it what reason does
anybody have to buy Microsoft stock
anymore I mean they get the they get the
the the Legacy business but if they just
buy Bitcoin and hold it why take the
risk of investing in a company like
Microsoft I I know like the volatility
people don't like the volatility people
like the
stability do they have any other reason
to buy the stock other than maybe
feelings well I think that you've got to
look at the incentives behind individual
investors right everyone's in a very
particular spot to themselves so
something like a micro strategy might be
way too wild for someone who's in their
60s that's entering retirement and even
if they fundamentally know that the
volatility is the product so you expect
it it's tough to to stomach the swings
right I mean you see that sentiment out
there on X all the time right when this
thing swing and people go from the
highest of highs to the lowest of lows
in 10 days right it goes fast so if
you're in one of those positions where
you're looking for stability micro micro
strategy is not what you're looking for
Microsoft might be because they've got a
very stable business right that people
can understand because it's a product
that they've use that they still
probably used today they become familiar
with how micro strategy operates as a
company their guidance has gotten
refined so you believe the targets that
they're putting out they issue dividends
people like dividends right so I think
when you get to that point in your life
and you're no longer necessarily in the
wealth creation phase of life and you're
more into the wealth preservation phase
of life I think that you look at these
companies a little differently like I
look at Microsoft and I go they have
nothing to offer me right right like
right now they don't because I'm in the
wealth creation phase of my life but I
also spend a significant amount of time
analyzing business operating models
right so I I start to dig into the
fundamentals of how these things are
performing and looking for those
outsized opportunities most investors
are very passive and so if you're a very
passive investor you kind of default
back to investing in what's familiar to
you Apple makes sense to people they've
got an iPhone in their pocket they've
got a Mac computer they understand that
company they might not know anything
about the financials but they know
people are using phones and computers
still so they can be comfortable enough
with that Microsoft they know the
products they can be comfortable with
that Amazon they've got packages showing
up to their door every day they can
understand the value that's there right
so I I think there's something for
everyone out there I don't try to tell
everybody I know to buy micro strategy
all the time right because I know that
certain people can't stomach what this
product is and you have to be ready for
that it's almost hilarious now that
Bitcoins become like the safe thing to
push people into you're like look if you
don't want the volatility just buy
Bitcoin right then you'll be fine right
because to us that feels like no
volatility anymore because we've been at
this for so many years now that we've
become this has readjusted what our
normal is for volatility in the market
but we do have to acknowledge that for
99% of
investors 've not gone through that yet
right so that's not a new normal to them
it's not something that they're willing
to stomach in their own investing lives
they're not willing to watch their
Capital go down 40% in an investment
right so they are going to look for
what's comfortable to them and I don't
begrudge anybody that approach because
you have to recognize the different
situations of each individual investor
and they have to come up with the right
solution for them right the saying I
always say on X is investing is an
individual sports sport but what we're
trying to do is we're trying to make
research and due diligence a team sport
right so we're trying to put the
information out there but from that
point people have to make the
determination for themselves of what's
going to fit into their financial model
the best yeah that's that's really
really well said but what my question
was uh why wouldn't somebody just buy
Bitcoin over Microsoft Microsoft is
still pretty volatile I mean there's if
once you understand Bitcoin I mean I
guess once you understand Bitcoin that
that's the the main thing here once you
understand Bitcoin you understand that M
Bitcoin is actually less risky in my
opinion at least than Microsoft because
Microsoft has counterparties you have y
um the fact that there there could be
human error in their judgment there
could
be regulations that stop them from from
operating right yeah I think you're
right on that so going in with the
Assumption if micro strategy is adopting
Bitcoin they're just converting cash to
bitcoin if the question then is why
would you buy Microsoft over Bitcoin
well if you were going to do that you
would have to have some reason to
believe that the fundamentals of the
business is going to provide more upside
value than just the growth rate of
Bitcoin right and that's tough to do so
that's a hard thing to convince yourself
of I would have a hard time with that
right I would look at it and go I
understand Bitcoin bitcoin's enough for
me I don't see with all the things you
mentioned the counterparty risk right
you've got new products coming out all
the time from all these startup
companies that might unseat some of they
really entrenched products right that's
a risk and you have to weigh that so if
you're buying Microsoft because they're
converting cash to bitcoin you do have
to ask yourself that question right what
do I think that they can provide me in
returns beyond what Bitcoin itself is
going to provide me in returns and if
you can't come up with an answer to that
if you can't find a way where Microsoft
outperforms somehow right they've got
Bitcoin plus this other X Factor then
it's probably not the choice to make
right you should really you know sailor
said a lot of times bitcoin's kind of
becoming the hurdle rate for a lot of
people yeah so every investment that
you're making if you're a real big
believer in Bitcoin you've got to put it
through that lens of what do I think
this company brings to the table in
terms of their strategy that gives me
that potential for outsized returns
because otherwise why would I take on
those other risks into my portfolio yeah
that that's I mean that's how I see it
as well I mean I I get what you were
saying about micro strategy micro
strategy isn't for everyone I think
Bitcoin is for everyone I think everyone
should have Bitcoin I think should they
should have at least a little bit even
if they have a million Satoshi 100,000
Satoshi 5 whatever whatever they can
afford just accumulate and then that
that's the that's the key here it's
reaching that point where it's no longer
this you know internet magic money it
was made out to be years ago right
because now people are turning on their
TVs and they're seeing their favorite
people out there talking about Bitcoin
in the Main Street and it's almost every
day it's become the topic that people
love to cover and when it reaches that
level of escape velocity where it's now
becoming a normal part of daily
conversation for mainstream media you're
starting to see the inclusion of bills
making their legislature making its way
into Congress like it's a different
thing now right a lot of the risks have
started to get flattened out right there
was originally this thought that you're
just in the highly speculative area that
the US can Crush whenever they feel like
it
but now that so many countries are
starting to see the value in here and
their citizens are using it and people
are starting to realize this isn't a USA
asset this is a global asset it starts
to become a much more comfortable
investment to introduce into your
portfolio and it starts to make that
point that you might want some right
because even if all you're seeing now is
the more friendly regulations being
released you're you're not seeing the
same attacks coming from like the SEC or
all these other politicians that were
pushing these you know very negative
agendas towards Bitcoin and digital
Assets in general once you see that
environment softening for Bitcoin you
can start to build more conviction in
what the Outlook is going to look like
right a lot of those risks are starting
to fade off Bitcoin finally has its very
first Tailwind I mean it's a magical
thing that we cross
$100,000 and we basically had a decade
and a half of headwinds right everything
was going against Bitcoin for a decade
and a half and it didn't care it got
adoption anyways so yeah I think you're
right I think people should have an
allocation to bitcoin and I think as
long as you've put in the time to really
understand it and take a macro view it's
becoming a very easy thing to say yes to
for a lot of people yeah that's it
that's it um over time I think more and
more people are going to understand this
I think I think they're going to be
forced to understand it because the
medium of exchange the unit of account
the store value that they use today they
can't plan with it you can't plan with
dollarss you're forced to buy companies
you're forced to be a part-time investor
or even a full-time investor full-time
Finance um I guess financial institution
or financial financial adviser to
yourself just to make sure that you
don't go bankrupt I have this question
that I ask all of my guests uh the
question is what do you think is the
most important downside of the
downstream effect of Bitcoin over the
next 10 20 30 years how do you think
Bitcoin is going to change the world in
the big
way I think Bitcoin becomes an asset of
Peace ultimately I think that so much of
what we see in the world is driven
around monetary gain and it pushes
people to do very greedy things and I
think that Bitcoin being decoupled from
that type of a system and being an asset
that was released to the world for
everybody right there's no controller of
Bitcoin there's no active management of
the Bitcoin Supply it is truly free to
the world for everybody to use in the
way that they seem fit I think that that
is ultimately going to lead to a much
more peaceful existence for people
because people aren't going to use
Bitcoin to hold power over others right
I think it is going to open up that
layer of freedom to the world so you
know it's a little bit of an altruistic
way to look at Bitcoin I think but I
think it's kind of what the world needs
right now we've seen so much of the dark
side side of the disagreements over you
know Fiat currencies or the values of
the materials that are in the ground and
what kind of Darkness that can really
bring to the world and I think having
this free open monetary system within
Bitcoin is going to be a huge stepping
stone in changing the way that the world
operates with itself absolutely I think
that's that's that's a really great
answer I feel like um the the peace that
Bitcoin is going to provide people just
from being able to say for themselves
not having to commit Petty crimes to
feed their family I mean that's just
going to change things completely like
we have um cities like what San where is
it San Francisco is that where there's a
lot of crime are you in the states
you're in the states right I'm in the
states yep yeah San Francisco has a lot
of crime I believe yeah oh yeah it does
San Francisco New York there's there's a
lot of them right now yeah and part of
that is because people can't save they
can't save for the future they can't
plan for their fam's stability they
can't give their fam stability because
the savings that they have if especially
if they're living paycheck to paycheck
their life gets more expensive but their
paycheck doesn't increase that's exactly
the worst position to be in people in a
position of desperation right you have
to have empathy for that position a lot
of people can't understand the heads
space that you get into when you're when
someone's truly desperate and I think
you're right I think we're seeing a lot
of that right now people are getting
desperate right we just went through a
very rough time across the world that
devastated a lot of people right people
lost businesses through no fault of
their own they might have had a really
great business and they just got shut
down and I don't think there's limits
that people are willing to go to when it
comes to having to provide for your
family and I think you're right that
when you can never get ahead if you
never have a way to be able to save and
outrun the devaluation of the assets
that you do have you get put in a very
tough spot where you have to make
decisions that look terrible to other
people but in your mind at the time it's
the only thing you could do and so I
think you're right I think that this
does open up a layer for people to have
something that they can decouple from
that system that has really penalized
them for not necessarily even doing
anything wrong and I think that's going
to be a very powerful mindset shift for
a lot of people yeah it's going to
change lives I I really think even if
people don't adopt Bitcoin right now
over the next 10 years 15 years whenever
they get paid in Bitcoin whenever they
start getting paid in Bitcoin they'll be
much better off compared to somebody
who has who doesn't have that mindset or
or in a world where Bitcoin didn't exist
because their government is going to
continue stealing from them forever
without them even knowing that that's
the biggest part they they have no idea
most people have no idea that the money
that they have continues to lose value
no matter what they they don't see it
they don't understand it and if you try
to mention it to them they just wave it
away they think oh yeah it's inflation
is normal we need inflation you're being
pickpocketed by an invisible hand right
yeah you can never see it coming it's a
problem and luckily the discussions have
started opening up I think people are
starting to realize right I mean this is
why a lot of the the you know wealth
accumulation right and the Gap that's
happening that divide that's happening
in the wealth across the
world is some people learned that lesson
earlier and that is an advantage because
you really do have to understand the
devaluation of money and the mechanics
of inflation before you really
understand why people with all the money
have it all invested right you learn
that you have to own assets instead of
holding on to the cash because the
assets at least the valuations on a lot
of those is going to rise with the
devaluation of the denominator of what
they're valued in right yeah but most
people don't have that type of
background it's not something that's
typically taught in schools right if you
don't go to a university and even if you
do go to a university a lot of times
you'll never hear that discussion so
people never learn how to allocate their
own Capital right everyone's their own
personal Capital allocator yeah and
that's a big responsibility particularly
if you have people that are depending on
you to be successful in how you allocate
that capital and you have to spend the
time to learn this unfortunately you've
had to learn how to do it on your own
the beauty of the internet and what
you're putting out and what a a lot of
other people are putting out is that
that type of information in those
different thought processes that you can
hear from different people who have
started to figure these things out that
information is now getting open sourced
right it's no longer closed it's not a
secret of just a wealthy community this
is now you can come online and have open
discussions about the topic hear other
people's approaches you can figure out
what the right one is to apply to your
own life so we're getting to a better
place from an education perspective from
a sharing perspective right nobody's
gatekeeping information anymore now
we're trying to share it right and I
think bitcoin's really brought that
along this has really been a big
Community effort from it started with a
small team of people that were working
on this in the dark right and now it's a
broad discussion that's opening people
up to information about economics that
nobody was ever going to learn if these
discussions weren't happening and if we
didn't have a solution right the
solution is what causes the discussion
you need the understanding of what's
happening and then you can understand
why Bitcoin is the solution to that and
so it's a very powerful education that
gets wrapped into this asset and it's
very important for a lot of people
moving forward yeah yeah that's that's
so important and uh Ben I want to uh I
want to thank you for your time but I
want to ask you one last question here
do you have any final tips from my
audience they're generally TR to
understand micro strategy better they're
trying to understand Bitcoin better do
you have any any final tips you can
leave for them yeah I think the biggest
tip that I can give is to stay engaged
in the communities that are out there
there's evolving thinking on all these
types of Investments all the time and
there's huge groups of people doing
great work to put out their thoughts and
their strategies around this right
everything from Trading strategies to
General investment philosophy right I
think that continuous education is going
to be your best Edge in these markets
most investors don't spend the time to
learn anything Truly Deeply they go very
passive so when you do spend that time
you're going to have that edge that
everybody talks about but most people
don't really know what it means it's
that information asymmetry that you can
get so stay engaged always be willing to
learn and if you're putting Capital into
something make sure you at least spend a
little bit of time to to really
understand the foundational components
of the strategy of that company and
that'll get you a very long way yeah I
think a lot of people are just buying
into things like xrp um all these random
crap coins that have no value that are
doing nothing they're trying to replace
Bitcoin but they they I don't think they
will you have to go through the pain of
those sometimes I did I mean early on I
I got smashed on more of these altcoins
because you get excited and you just
start investing in everything right
because everyone's making all the money
and it's a painful and costly lesson to
learn so if someone's out there watching
this who hasn't learned that lesson
learn it from me I'll tell you I got
smashed a bunch of times and it
eventually brings you back to what asset
do I really understand the value
proposition of and if you're looking at
an xrp or any of these other ones and
you don't understand the value
proposition that brings and why the
world needs it it's not something you
should be in so I went full circle I'm a
Bitcoin only guy that's really all I
need I understand the big picture there
it's important enough that I'm willing
to have that be the only one that I need
to be in yeah very well said Ben I
really appreciate your time here I thank
you I thank you my audience is probably
going to find this very very useful I
think there were so many Concepts that
we touched here that I haven't touched
in my channel before can you let my
audience know where they can find you
absolutely yeah I'm pretty easy to find
I'm really only in one place I'm on X
that's where I do all my content we do
live streams where we're mostly
discussing Bitcoin in micro strategy so
you can just find me at benw Workman on
X and that's where you'll find all my
information awesome I'll uh link your
Twitter in the description below so that
my audience can find you very easily
thank you so much for your time Ben I
really really appreciate it thank you
Raj thank you for having me