Transcription
What would you say is the most important word to use in any negotiation?
Not "use," but come to grips with—no, the word "no." When you say "no," I think you got to have a dream. The School of Greatness, please welcome... Where do you think the confidence comes from in negotiation? How can we gain more confidence when we're mastering some of the strategies from your book and from your workshops and trainings that you guys do? How does someone develop that confidence?
Someone, break that into two parts: the type of confidence and developing the confidence. Because there's a lot of empty, vacuous confidence out there—false confidence. I, you know, this one guy we talked to about a possible investment company, you know, I pointed out how I thought the numbers were flawed, and then the guy said, "Well, I'm confident I can make these numbers." Anyway, and I'm like, "Alright, so we're walking away from you right now."
Mm-hmm.
Because you just told me you have confidence in the things that I just pointed out to you that were flawed, instead of actually listening to what I said. Now, the confidence that you spoke about a moment ago, the way you lived it and what you said—it wasn't confidence; it was confidence in connecting. And that's the critical point: with people, with people connecting with somebody and the desire to connect with them—which is also the whole point of the negotiation.
The Black Swan Method is about succeeding with people, not at their expense. You know, getting better at negotiation, not necessarily at the expense of other people. In point of fact, making the other person's position better also—not as you're hurting them; not hurting, but them succeeding, and you succeed, right? Because you want repeat business.
Yes, and if you heard them, then I can repeat.
Right. So connecting with people, negotiating with people—that's your confidence: a desire for that and a genuine sincerity, enthusiasm for it. How does someone do that when they know what they want is not what the other person wants?
Well, and that's only if it's short-term—a gotcha. And then if it really gets at the risk of that, you make what you want the path to what they want. Like, you know, I love seeing a Black Swan method showing up in the real world.
So, of course, somebody sends me a clip from Shark Tank, and Kevin O'Leary got Black Swan.
Okay, tell me.
So one of our go-to lines when somebody's giving you an unacceptable offer or something you can't deal with, or something very difficult for you, I used to say that, you know, to kidnappers: "How are we supposed to pay if we don't know the hostage is alive?" They want to get paid. "I gotta know that your hostage is alive. How are we supposed to pay you if we don't know you're gonna let them go?" They want to get paid; I want to get the hostage out.
I'm making my goals their sequence. So how am I supposed to do that? It's some form of "how" is a great leveling-the-playing-field question when someone's coming at you hard.
So what happened with Kevin?
Kevin O'Leary, the classic: "Alright, so this is my offer. Take it or leave it. No discussion—yes or no. You gotta answer me right away. This is what I want. Can't talk to anybody else." And the guy looks at him, says, "How am I supposed to do that?"
And then he says, "How am I supposed to agree to those terms and pay you back your money?"
Now O'Leary, initially, this started with a larry, basically saying, like, "Yes or no, right, or get out of my face. You got five seconds; make a decision, I'm out, or I'm out."
Instead, they hit him with a couple of how questions, and then there's a sequencing. Larry wants his money back, so "How am I supposed to do that and protect your investment?" And so suddenly, now all of a sudden he's not angry, but now he's not, he's back on his heels. He's trying to think. He's thinking.
And at that point in time, since they've created so much space in the negotiation, now Barbara Corcoran jumps in.
Right.
Now there's some time that says some people, a 10-second window.
Yeah.
And a better deal is opening, and Kevin looks at her and says, "Hey, are you in? Are you out? I thought you were out." And so then—now he's engaged in a full-on negotiation. It's back and forth exchange. And these guys are still hitting him with, like, "How am I supposed to protect your investment and give you those kind of terms?"
And then finally, they get a great deal teased out that O'Leary is still not ready to jump on, and Barbara says, "You know what? I'll take that deal!" And she jumps in, and she gets it.
Wow!
So great negotiations are about succeeding with people and creating the opportunity for good things to happen. Because until they did that, Barbara Corcoran was out, but they created some space, they had some legitimate questions, and suddenly Barbara says, "There's a great deal in front of me; I'm gonna jump back in."
Right. What would you say is the most important word to use in any negotiation?
Wow! Um, not "use," but come to grips with—no, the word "no." I know it's a great word to hear if you're trying to make the negotiation. When I'm trying to make the negotiation, because empathy is about what it is for the other side, not what it is for you. It's not about you.
So when you say "no," you feel safe. I'm protecting myself; I'm guarding my right deal or whatever side of that I have. I'm not giving in to something I don't want.
Right, and as soon as you do that, you're more willing to explore options.
Okay, "no" for this, but maybe—what about this, this, or this?
Right. Or I may say, "Look, does this look like a bad idea?" And you might say, "No, it doesn't look like a bad idea, but I need these things," which you having feel safe will now tell me honestly, because you don't feel obligated. If I just said, "Does this look like a good deal to you?" you might say, "Yes, it looks like a good deal," but erasing the word, "I need these things."
But you're afraid if you said you had said "yes" in the first place you're now on the hook, so you're not going to be as honest with me about those things.
So coming to grips with what "yes" and "no" really means is one of the major first turning points in anybody's negotiation journey.
As a great negotiator, say that one more time: Coming to grips with what "yes" and "no" really means is the first major turning point in anybody's negotiation journey.
Because you think "yes" is success, and it's not, and you think "no" is failure, and it's not.
Why is "yes" not a success?
"Yes," at best, is aspiration only. You know the phrase "hope is not a strategy."
Yes.
It's hope alone; hope is inadequate alone, and at best, it's an aspiration. Most commonly, it's counterfeit; it's fake. It's a fake "yes." If someone says, "Hey, I want to do this deal with you," and you say, "Yeah, I'm open to that," or "Yeah, that works for me," you're saying it's not a hundred percent until the deal terms are laid out on paper and people are going back and forth.
Or what do you mean?
Well, about 80% of the time, I want to know what your deal terms are so I can shop them.
Oh!
And if I've said "yes," you're going to lay those terms out to me, and now I'm free to shop, I'm going to start playing you off somebody else.
Interesting.
And that is such a problem in the business world, recognizing a lot of salespeople are now taught to say, "Are we the vendor of choice?"
Well, you're going for yesterday.
Now, if you're being played, nobody's ever—if they're playing you, they're not going to tell you the truth.
Oh, yeah!
They say "yeah." They're not going to say, "Well, thank God you asked because, as a matter of fact, no, we're just pumping you for information."
Right.
Yeah, like nobody's ever gonna say that. If they were already lying to you, they're gonna lie to you about that question too.
So this whole "the seduction of yes" because we love to hear it, like, "Yes! The heavens part; the angels sing; the sun shines!" And that is such a seduction that people exploit us regularly by telling us "yes."
Yeah, it's interesting. So when you hear a "no," or when someone hears a "no," what is the first thing they should think in a negotiation?
Well, it depends upon how the "no" came up. Like, you know, and Never Split the Difference, we point out "no" could mean "not yet," or "no" is "no to these circumstances," which doesn't eliminate other circumstances.
Like, "no" could be, "I need time to think." Like, "no" is almost never rejection if it's come up unexpectedly. It's really a signal that there's another path versus, "I gotta quit and go home; that was failure. I'm horrified with 'no.'"
That ain't the case.
So we intentionally try to get it all the time. Like, getting someone to say "no" as a result of a calibrated question is so powerful.
You intentionally try to get people to say "no"?
Potentially try to get people to say "no."
That may be the only thing that some people learn.
'Cause I get emails on LinkedIn all the time, like, "Hey, I use the phrase, 'Have you given up on this project?' And my close rate is so exceeding everybody else that I, on my company, that I should come work for you and teach this." And my thought is, like, "I'm glad you're making a lot more money right now, but you're just scratching the surface."
And you think because you're comparing yourself to your peers who are in the middle of the bell curve that if you just moved up the bell curve one notch, you now see all these people way behind you. You don't have any idea how much more upside you have.
Right, wow!
What is the—when you hear a "no," what do you think next in a negotiation?
Well, I always hear those that I want to hear. You hear that, you set it up.
Yeah.
So is it asking for something so extreme first?
Well, for example, there's a lot of stuff—let's say about the particular deal that I know you don't know.
Okay.
I mean, Ronald Reagan says, "If you're explaining, you're losing." But I gotta give you some information at some point which is evidence of explanation. So I'll say something like, "Alright, here's what I think you're up against. Here's what I think the challenges are that you face. Are you against me sharing some ideas with you?"
No.
Right now I just teed up; you just—you got no problem with that. Now I can't—if I got 15 things I got to share with you, I probably only get away with three because each one is a lot; it's good information, you gotta absorb it, I gotta let you think about it; we gotta go in small doses.
But I will always—we are CDA—call to action, call to next step—however we close out, we always close out with a "no." You know me, the Black Swan team, everybody that we coach always close out: "Are you against doing this? Are you against me sharing some ideas? Does this look stupid to you? Is this a ridiculous idea?"
Like you can turn any one of your "yes" questions, huh, into a "no" question, which is more valuable really. Because I've heard in the past from people that say, you know, "You want to get people saying yes, yes, yes," leading into the close to a sale or whatever, right? It's like getting them saying yes, right?
But I'm hearing you say get them to say "no."
Right.
Why is "no" more powerful than "yes"?
I think that what you're referring to is called the "yes momentum," and I think that has been so overused.
Yeah.
And not only overused, but it's also been—everybody's been—they've been flim-flammed; they've been bamboozled; you know, they've been conned by that two or three times. They're "yes battered."
And then your problem is they feel like it's a trick or something or some “strap.” You're not a trickster, but you're engaging in the same methodology that the trickster used.
Interesting!
You know the African phrase: when you're bitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes. There are a lot of really legitimate people that are not trying to flim-flam somebody, but the flim-flam artists used that on them.
You know, the timeshare industry has a very bad reputation, and some of the timeshares are clearly very valuable because I know people that have them, and I love them.
Simultaneously, there are a lot of people out there that are hustling economy people, and there's a whole industry of that. We've coached some of these people on getting people out of timeshares because they got them on a "yes momentum," and now they got a timeshare that's going to bankrupt them.
Now they don’t remember exactly how that happened, but it was probably this "yes momentum." So they weren't conscious of it, but as soon as they hear it again, even from a close, trusted friend, they get burned, and they get an instinctively negative reaction to the "yes momentum."
Interesting!
So what's the "no?" Is it "no momentum?" What's like—what is this process of getting to "no?"
Well, you know you're getting to "no," and you're getting the information. You know, "no" typically triggers implementation, next steps.
Got it.
But a "no" is really a "yes."
Yes! Sounds like "Would you be against me sharing some interesting ideas for you?"
No, I'm not against it.
Exactly!
Okay, cool. Here's the next step.
And probably if I just said, "Are you against me sharing some interesting ideas for you?" your more likely answer would be, "No, I'm not against it, but I only got 15 minutes."
Yeah, awesome.
If I stick to the 15 minutes or less, I got your undivided attention. If I go over 15, you're gonna start to get anxious because you're worried about your clock.
Yeah!
And you know that that's the secondary thing. Like, if we set up an appointment, it's a ridiculous idea for me to take up 13 minutes of your time.
Right.
Not 10, not 5, but something in between. Right now, I know I want nine minutes—I gotta time down. You know, I call this "BDA lines." They're always showing up late.
Uh-huh.
They're not getting killed for that anymore.
No.
Are they more efficient?
No, they just changed the time they said they were going to show up.
You know, I'm sitting on a tarmac in LAX, playing, can't get to the gate. We're there 20 minutes early. The airline is, "Hey, we're here 20 minutes early. We promised an on-time arrival; we're here 20 minutes early."
They won't let us get to the gate, and you're sitting there thinking, like, "This airport is so stupid; this plane is big; they saw it coming; they got radar."
Yeah!
We're not a surprise, right?
Well, point of fact, the airport said you guys sure said you were showing up for three.
Wayne opened up this gate till three.
Now you're sitting there on the airplane; you're not mad at the airline; you're mad at the airport.
But in fact, the airline knew how long they were going to be early.
Right—
But who gave you back time in your life?
I call you on the phone; I say, "Louis, I need 13 minutes." You give me 15 because you ain't got 13 on your calendar; I get done at 9, and you're sitting there like, "Holy cow! Hey, you just gave me back time in my day!"
Everybody else is taking it away; now you love me.
Next time I call you, picking that phone right out—he's not gonna waste my time.
Exactly!
So I like these questions to get—would you be against me doing this? Would—what's another way you could say a "no" question? It's usually like, "Is it a ridiculous idea? Are you against?" Our phone calls start with, "Is now a bad time to talk?" instead of, "Have you got a few minutes?"
Right!
Because you know where people feel safe when they say "no."
They feel safe!
Why is that?
I guess probably because we get flim-flammed over "yes," and we've been flim-flammed so many times that "no" gives an automatic feeling of protection.
You know, and I talked about this because I told you I want to talk about how you're interviewing some of your other interviews.
Yeah, Andrew Huberman—yes, he's great!
Like I've become a queen with Andrew, a fascinating dude. Like his first interview of him I heard on with you, and I'm like, "This is a great interview! I gotta listen to everything this guy says."
Fascinating!
And so then I catch him on another podcast, and I'm falling asleep; I'm like, "Oh, Jesus, Andrew was awesome when he was in Lewis. Now, I can't—it's a cure for insomnia."
And I actually went back and I compared the interviewing stunt. Really interesting!
And there's a very difficult skill in the Black Swan Method also, and you were really good at—you're really good at several—but you paraphrase really well.
And paraphrasing is, it sounds simple—dictionary definition—but it keeps the conversation going in more digestible bites.
And I went back and I listened to your interview of Huberman several times before I realized when you interviewed, you were genuinely connecting and interested in him, right?
And you paraphrase frequently because they're very complex ideas. I'm like, "Okay, well, let me simplify this so I can understand, and other people can understand."
That's exactly right!
And it also helps you stay focused.
Yeah!
You're a much better listener if you're focused on doing that.
Now, the other dude that's interviewing Andrew, he's trying to show Andrew how smart he is.
Mm-hmm.
So is—he wanted to use all the scientific vernacular, which Andrew likes to speak in very plain terms, and he wanted to show how smart he was.
And then consequently, I think Andrew was having trouble keeping up with the questions because it was so complicated.
Yeah, the interviewer was trying to show off.
Yeah!
Yeah, for the audience. I'm as smart as Andrew Huberman—you don't bother with that at all, and you were genuinely interested, and you're very conscious, so your audience says, "Well, your audience is sort of losing track and falling asleep," like it's the other guy.
Right!
If I'm falling asleep, then I need to reset the interview, I need to paraphrase it so I can stay focused and present too.
Something I learned early on—thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it.
And I think it stemmed from an insecurity and a lack of confidence early in my 20s once I was kind of getting into—
So you're saying you're a flawed—
Very flawed!
You would be!
Yes!
After I got done playing arena football and lost my identity, I was like, "What am I going to do with the rest of my life?"
Like, this was my whole professional football. Now I got injured; I can't play anymore. What do I do? Do I really have skills? Am I talented? Is anyone going to hire me? I didn't know.
Right.
And I started going to these networking events in Columbus, Ohio, to try to meet people—kind of these business networking events.
And I remember I was like, "Wow, the—everyone's, you know, 5, 10, 20 years older than me; they're all wearing suits. I have one sport jacket and a t-shirt."
Right!
Everything about this environment is designed to make you feel inadequate.
Exactly!
Everything! And I didn't have a job and all these different things, and I was like, "Okay, what value can I bring to this networking event?"
Right.
I'm not as smart or talented or successful as these professionals. I remember being very intimidated, and I said, "You know what? I'm just going to go here and have fun and ask interesting questions and listen."
And I'm not going to try to actually listen; I'm just going to listen to whoever's in front of me. I'm not going to look around and see who else is here, who's more powerful, who's more interesting, who's coming in the door; I'm just gonna stare into someone's eyes—not in a creepy way—but I'm gonna connect.
Yeah!
Connect and really ask interesting, genuine questions and show my mouth.
And I started doing this; this first night—and I did it with, like, a joyful energy, right?
Like a childlike curiosity—I was just, like, really curious. I was like, "Wow!"
And I would do a follow-up question: "Tell me more about that. Tell me more—that's interesting! How did this happen with this?"
And at the end of the night, people came up to me like, "You got to meet Louis. He's such an interesting guy! He's so cool! He's so interesting!"
But they didn't know anything about me; I never shared anything about me. I was so curious about them, and I realized right then, I was like, "Oh, to be interesting, you have to be interested in other people!"
Yeah!
And you can build incredible relationships by showing how much you care, how interested you are in people, and make it about them as opposed to making it about you.
Yeah!
And that was essentially what I started doing. I said, "Okay, I'm just going to use this insecurity of not feeling like I'm smart enough, lean into it, use the things I am good at, which is curiosity, joy, I'm passionate, I'm playful, I'm, you know, I'll joke with people and just try to make people feel connected and feel like their story is really inspiring, which it is to me."
And that is kind of what I did with the podcast. It's just like, "Okay, you're way smarter than me; right? You've got these skills, this experience that I don't have. Let me be fascinated!"
Now I've interrupted you, and I'm talking right now, but in general it's like, "Well, tell me more. That's interesting! Well, how do I—how can I use this in my life?"
You know?
Yeah, and you threw out inadvertently, like, a couple of different, like, superpowers—curiosity. Like, you know, we got a block of instruction we teach called CAVIA; C is curiosity.
It's about getting yourself in the right headspace, and the "scene" Nicholas Tyler wrote a book, Anti-Fragile. He says curiosity is an anti-fragile characteristic, and curiosity is a highly positive frame of mind.
I cite this guy's TED Talk so many times—the happiness advantage, Sean Acker—yeah, he says, "You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind."
Curiosity is highly positive. There are every—everybody, all these different places talk about curiosity as an avenue to success for a variety of reasons.
You pick up more; you're interested; you pay attention; the other person feels very connected with you.
Yes!
When you're genuinely curious, playful—another highly positive frame of mind. Kotler talks about flow; Steven Collins says, "Flow is highly positive."
Even playful pre-adolescents walk around essentially in borderline flow all the time; they're playful—jumping around, trying—you know, climbing on people; you're just singing, dancing, you're just playing.
Yeah!
And so you take that attitude into a business environment, and suddenly everybody else—everybody there is going like, "Hey, this kid over here with this old sport coat, yeah, shoes?
It's the most interesting character here!
Right!
Come over here and meet this guy!"
Uh-huh.
Anybody can do that!
Yes!
If they, yeah, if they go like, "Alright, so I'm an idiot, and I don't have any credentials and I don't know anything, and I'm unemployable because I have no skills. Let me go and see what happens."
I mean, how are you going to go down from there?
Yeah!
You can—how are you going to embarrass yourself? You're going to be like, "Alright, so I am a goofball! Let me go in here and I'll be a goofball—I’ll be happy and figure out a way to bring value in your unique way!" I'm curious, what is the most frequent question word that you use?
Who, what, when, where, why?
Ah!
Alright!
So we only use questions to create calibrate thinking in the other person's brain to start with. Like, I'm not going to ask you a question to get information; I'm going to ask you a question to put a thought in your head.
For example, when I'm working on a free upgrade to a suite in a hotel, [Music] which I work on every time—I don't get it every time—what's your name? Practice.
What's your success rate?
The success rate is probably in excess of 90%.
Really?
Which is also going to be—it’s going to be impacted by inventory, right? If there's no inventory, and there's really no inventory, they can't give you a suite; they don't have it.
But maybe they can give you something else, or, you know, they're going to look at their inventory.
The first thing, do they have any suites?
The second, how many nights in a row do I want the suite?
Like, if I'm rolling in there and I'm almost always late because I'm traveling.
Sure!
If they only got one suite, I'm staying one night, and it's after six, they could give me that one suite; they can use up their inventory because I'm out in the morning.
And at six o'clock at night, they're willing to gamble that nobody's coming in and taking it.
Now, if I'm there for three nights, I'm not getting that suite if that's the only one they have, because they gotta leave it open.
So, but I gotta ask in a way that doesn't limit me to the suite, right? Because I want to get it; I want them to feel good about the interaction.
So throw other stuff on the table. Like I'm in a—I’m in a hotel in Dallas about a year ago. I didn't think about it; I walked in the door. Parking lot's full of Range Rovers. I walk inside; there are no shortage of women that are dressed to the nines, almost all of them accompanied, but I mean dressed to impress.
I get up to the counter, and I do the suite thing, and the guy's like, "Yeah, we got a wedding party here."
Uh-huh.
Range Rovers—expensive, expensive outfits—are they out of suites?
More than likely!
Right?
So I do the pitch; he's like, "Man, you know, we got a wedding party here; they've taken all the suites."
So I ask him, "Is it a ridiculous idea for you to make it up for to me at the bar?"
I think about the absurdity of that question.
Yeah!
Like I'm asking for something for free that I never should have had in the first place, and if you don't give it to me, now you gotta make it up to me—that's good.
It's hysterical!
It's great!
And so that guy goes, "I don't know, as a matter of fact," he comes around the counter and he gives me like five, six free drink tickets at the bar.
And I'm like, you know, let's break it down.
I gotta leave myself in a position to get other stuff.
What's the go-to approach for anyone trying to get an upgrade?
Well, so first of all, a car upgrade—it's not, you gotta understand since it's not about you—how do they see it?
And then, like, it's an emotional journey.
And the journey is how it ends and how it begins.
You know, the last impression is the lasting impression. I gotta take them to this great place.
That's going to be three steps. Give it to me now.
In a hotel, I'm gonna be like, "Look man, I'm getting ready to ruin your whole day."
That's the first thing you say?
Well, you gotta give me your ID, you're right.
Right, right!
They got a credit card ID; they gotta find your reservation.
Right!
Because they're going to be distracted; they're gonna be multitasking.
So they say, "Hey, you're checking in?"
"Yeah, check your final reservation."
If you got a points number, give them the points number.
You gotta wait for the moment, and you go like, "I'm getting ready to ruin your day now."
And you gotta stop; you gotta wait.
They tell you to go on.
Now, from a hotel, from the hotel's perspective, like they have seen every horrible thing you could imagine.
Oh, I'm sure!
You know, do you have a goat in your bag, and you want to do a satanic ritual?
Right?
Which we are never going to be able to get that on the walls.
Yeah, exactly!
Like they’ve seen crazy, crazy parties, you know, animal feces, whatever it is—everything!
So when you say that, they immediately go to all this horrible stuff.
No, because you're gonna take—you're gonna take them to a better place.
So you say first, "Are you ready for me to—I'm getting ready to ruin your day!"
Oh, bad!
And you let that sink in.
And then they go, "And then—so, now you gotta—you start bringing them out of it."
How are you gonna say—how are you gonna sing to them if you're somebody who's asking for stuff for free?
Uh-huh.
You're cheap.
Right?
You're another cheap, entitled, self-centered traveler who's demanding and so I'm like, "I'm sure again it's not—it's not a denial; it's an admission. A prediction, I'm sure I'm going to seem like another self-centered, unappreciative, demanding traveler who thinks the sun rises and sets on, who wants something for nothing."
Now you no longer have a goat in your suitcase.
No ritual sacrifice is not involved; you want something for free?
Yes, they immediately start to feel better in relief.
Now you—because you asked me about questions, so now we get to the question to create a state of mind.
The last obstacle is going to be how much trouble they're going to get into if they give me a free suite upgrade.
Now there's a colleague standing there. I've done this while the boss was the manager. Yeah, I've done this literally while the manager was standing next to listen to this whole thing.
They may need to go to find a manager.
So how much trouble am I going to get you in if I ask for a free upgrade to a suite?
Because the last thing that's going to go through their mind that they have to reconcile before they make the move is, whether or not they're going to get in any trouble.
I lay this out in one hotel in New York, and as a woman's standing next—
Because you're almost always going to get it in front of somebody.
This works in front of other employees; it works in front of customers.
You're not going to be in a vacuum.
And the boss jumps in and says, "Because you asked nicely, let me see what I can do."
She starts checking the inventory.
Wow!
And I want to be there for four nights. And she says, "Look, if you can guarantee me that when you check out on Friday you're out of here before 10 o'clock in the morning, I got an upgrade for you."
But I got late checkout problems on Friday morning, you cannot have a late checkout.
Wow!
And I'm like, "You got it! I mean, I’ll come down in my pajamas if I got to get out of there!"
Right!
Wow!
So the three steps is: I'm getting ready to ruin your day, some type of approach of—because what are you getting ready to do?
You're getting ready to give them some negatives, yes.
And the second one is acknowledging that you're coming across as another greedy, demanding customer.
That expects the world to open up for them and have something for free.
And then the third one is—tell me the third question, how much trouble am I going to get you in if I ask for a free upgrade to a suite now?
And this—like this emotional journey and really, the point is always leaving people better than you found them.
And you know, they've been through a lot; like, they want to help you!
If they would love to help you, the first thing is, do you appreciate what it is for them?
Like this poor schmuck behind the camera, he's getting yelled at by everybody.
Everyone, you know, and everybody's going for a free upgrade.
And you know, I had a friend of mine who had this really entertaining one, but the success rate was really low.
You know, he's telling me, he says, "You mean to tell me if the president of the United States wasn't coming in here tonight, you wouldn't have a suite?"
And that clerk says, "Of course, we were."
So what, president? "Ain't coming; give it to me!"
Right?
That's really entertaining, but it left the guy resentful.
Like, one hotel I’m in where I get the upgrade for several nights, an hour after I check into the room, my plans change dramatically.
I got to check out the following morning; I'm not staying two nights.
Now, by and large, they are completely entitled based on the terms of the contract to charge me for the second night, right?
You know, I've agreed to that. I go down the next morning and I said, "Look, I am so sorry; this is my problem; this is not your problem because it was my problem."
And if I asked to check out without getting charged, their first reaction was like, "Look, dude, that’s your problem; bad planning on your part is not constituted an emergency for me."
Yeah!
We're a business; we got stuff to do too; you screwed up. Why should we pay?
So that's what they're going to think.
So they're gonna think it's my problem, and I've left them with really positive residue from the day before because they felt great about helping me out.
And I said, "Look, I'm sorry; it's my problem," and you know, what is it, what is it?
I go, "My plans have changed; I got to check out; I got to go home."
And like, "Oh, no, no worries, no worries; we'll get you—what can we do?"
I mean, leaving—because you even after the deal, you always need some sort of collaboration from somebody.
You're going to need something.
It doesn't matter what it is, and even if you don't need something, you want them to feel like they helped you; they felt good about helping you.
You know, the hotel staff, they realized that you could give them a great social media review as a result, which is going to be really good for their business.
They don't want to get clobbered over the head; they don't want "Well, I'm an influencer, and if you give me a free upgrade, I will broadcast it to all of my 75 followers on Instagram that this is a great hotel."
Like everybody thinks they're an influencer.
Yeah, well they want that; they just don't want to get clubbed with it.
So if they liked helping you, just because of something about the interaction, instead of making them feel uneasy and feel like they collaborated with another human being that saw their challenges, then all that other stuff that you want to use as primaries now, great benefits—social media commentary: I'm gonna put a video on my Instagram about how cool the room is, or how great the view is, or I'm in downtown Detroit, and how revitalized downtown Detroit is and this phenomenal hotel suite that I'm in.
Then I'm like, 'I'll move in here! This is so nice.'
You know, so I'll put that out there, but you know, I don't want to use it against them; I don't want to leverage it against them.
I want them to feel like I did it because I wanted to and because it was mutual gain.
Yeah! What would you say then are the three biggest mistakes you see a lot of people doing in negotiations?
Trying to club somebody with their leverage.
Yeah, explaining; you know, I gotta go first—you know, I gotta set an anchor out.
You know, this anchoring on price or terms is just such a bad idea, and so many people look to do it.
Can you give me an example what that means?
Like, if I know I want to pay a hundred dollars, and I'm saying, "Look, the best I can do is like 25."
To you, you know, you go to the side on the open market; I want to pay a hundred, and I want you to work me up there.
The real problem with extreme anchoring from the beginning I think all seasoned negotiators have learned: it drives deals from the table.
Like, I don't want to miss out on a deal because my extreme anchor on the price or terms at the beginning was so extreme that you're like, "I could never come close to this."
When we should have made the deal; we should have figured out a way to work it out.
Price doesn't break deals, doesn't make deals; it breaks them.
You don't make a great deal based on price; you can break a deal if you're trying to undercut extremes.
Somebody's going to get mad; they're going to walk away; you know, you're gonna get a—you know, heck with you, I don't—you know, you insult me with that offer.
And they just don't realize how many deals they drive away from the table.
Interesting!
If someone wants to get a better price on something, so that was I think that first, off before I asked that question—that was the second.
I think mistake—was there another big mistake people make in negotiation?
The price—extreme price anchoring; using too much leverage to try to club someone.
Was there another big one that a lot of people do that's actually taught out there a lot, which is really bad, is continue to ask for stuff after you've made a deal?
Like ask for free stuff—that's the worst!
Right? You made a good deal; here's a win-win, and now you're asking for more and more; it gonna leave a sour taste.
That's every time, and that's taught out there regularly—really?!
It was, you know, there's a negotiation guru from the 80s, and I can't remember what he called it, but he gave the example: you go out, and you get a custom-made suit, and you've made the deal for the suit, and while the guy's measuring you, you say, "So how many free ties do I get with that?"
And he said, "That's a great way to get free things—free little things after they made the deal: throw in a pocket square; throw in a couple ties; throw in a couple legs!"
Whatever it is, you know what?
And what that does is make the person you did it to hate you, which they're going to resent it.
And if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term, they will do that.
Now, unfortunately, that's taught really extensively, and it's done in business all the time.
People call it "scope creep," "feature creep."
Interesting!
Like it drives every single business person crazy because they don't know how to deal with it.
Now, the Black Swan Method, you know, you might say if you were good at how questions, you might say, "How can I give you the free ties and continue to want to do business with you?"
You know, "How can I be a great tailor for you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin?"
You know, make their what they ask for the obstacle to what they want.
Either what you want is a path, or if what they want is bad, it’s the obstacle.
You know, "How can I serve the needs of your family if you're cutting into my profit margins?"
You know, there's gotta be a way to wake somebody up to it because a lot of people have been taught they don't know any better.
Like if I stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s, I'd have thought it was okay because I'm getting free ties all over the place.
Yeah!
Like a lot of people, if they don't know any better, how do you wake them up?
So that—if they only knew, they'd change.
Now, there's some people that are doing it on purpose. If you do something like that to me because you didn't know any better, let me see if I can wake you up.
If I can wake you up, also we got a great long-term relationship.
If I can't wake you up, I now know, and I'm probably like, "Okay, cool, this is the last deal I make with this game—one and done."
Yeah, this is a one-and-done; I'm out.
But I need to know if you just did it by accident.
I get job negotiations recently; brought somebody on to my company. Thought we had the deal settled; I'm a new employee.
New employee. Yeah! Because employment contracts are like any other, and this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after we've laid out the terms.
We’ve written you off a letter; we sent the offer letter.
Offer letter doesn't get signed—silence—not a good sign.
My director of operations, who knows no-oriented questions, sends this person an email: "Have you given up on signing the offer letter?"
Immediately comes back with a bunch of, you know, not ridiculous benefits—more asks.
More asks.
Yeah, which are not on a plate. Some of them are, like, wow, that was interesting; I never thought of that one.
Now, we can't do that—not a million years!
This is stuff I aspire to, but you—now we can't do it now.
But no, this is—I like this one; it’s just not in the package now.
But my director of operations, like, "I never had somebody come back."
And I'm like, "Okay, first I gotta do is I gotta find out did this person just not know any better."
So I engaged in the conversation, and I said, "Alright, so however this goes, I want you to understand two things. First of all, I'm glad it came up now as opposed to six months from now, but secondly, this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut.
So I'm guessing you just didn't know any better, and you were uncomfortable bringing it up.
But if you come on board, first you gotta understand we don't do this to people, and you’re going to learn we work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement instead of going for a little stuff after the agreement."
Right?
And this person was like, "Hey, you know, I didn't know," and "My intention is to help build the company," and "I appreciate you letting me know," and "I understand where you're coming from."
They were genuine about it; they were very genuine.
I needed to know that!
Yeah!
Like, was this person advised to do this? Did they do it by accident, or did they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future behavior, which now we have a real problem, right?
Because if this is a habit that you're born with, you are not going to last, and you can't represent me!
No!
Because the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors.
I gotta find out which one it is, and I go back and we talk it through, and I get a list of things to aspire to for employee benefits, because these are great things.
Sure!
So to finish that up, one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on!
Right, do that before the final agreement, is what I'm hearing you say.
Yep!
Yes.
If someone's looking to paraphrase, you want to make sure I capture that—if someone is looking to buy, wanting to buy something—acquire something.
Whether they're buying a business, a car, a house, some potential expensive item—jewelry, something of more value than a thousand dollars—and they might be able to negotiate a lower price.
You mentioned the extreme price anchoring, how that is a mistake!
Right!
There's a house for a million dollars; I'll give you 200 grand for it!
Right, but you want to get a better deal, right?
Maybe it's a Rolex; maybe it's a car; maybe it's a house; maybe you want to acquire a business; whatever it is.
Somebody have higher value, a ring, an engagement ring, you're going to marry someone, right?
Right, right!
Let them make their profit off somebody else.
Yeah!
What should be the lower percentage on a higher item of value?
How low of a percentage should you go to anchor in order for you to feel like, "Oh, I got a great deal, and I got the thing I wanted, and they didn't get screwed over?"
You know what I mean?
Well, depend upon the context.
I mean, like 30—30 is a good rule of thumb, just start out low, for a target.
Sure!
Like if you—and again, it's very, very context-driven.
Sure! Like, for example, I'm in Macy's one time, and I'm picking out this jacket; the girl I'm with really likes it; she searches this thing extensively; she finds like a thread out of place, and she goes like, "Watch me get 10% off on this jacket!"
And I'm like, "That's right. I can get 30 by being nice."
No way!
Tell me more!
Well, I like—every transaction, you know, I look at it as there’s an aggravation tax.
Now the person you're dealing with has already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them.
So there's an aggravation penalty; there's an annoyance tax; there's an aggravation tax that's already there on a price.
Now if you're not aggravating, you don't need to pay the aggravation tax!
That's interesting!
Let somebody else pay that aggravation tax, and you benefit from them actually paying that tax.
Yeah!
Let somebody else pay it!
If I'm not aggravating, why should I pay the aggravation tax?
So, you know, this young lady, she'd gotten 10% off on a regular basis, I will be demanding 10%.
10%?
The annoyance tax?
When there’s another 20% to be gained!
Interesting!
Like, you don’t—so many people don’t realize how much money they’re leaving on the table—really!
Like massive amounts of money!
On any given day, the difference between 10% off and 30%!
Right?
Like they got a way to give you a better deal!
Mm-hmm!
If they feel like it!
So how do you get them to feel like it?
Well, yeah, great—there you go.
Exactly!
Again, the approach is very similar to the hotel thing.
You know, there's a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in the Black Swan Method we call it "the accusations audit."
The accusations audit?
Let me do an audit of all the names you would call me if I’m going to do this.
Uh-huh.
You say this; you say it to yourself, okay?
Not today because I need to come up with a list, so again, it's like, "Look, you get annoying people coming through here all day long every day wanting something for nothing.
I'm going to look like just like another one of these annoying jerks that's really demanding and rub you the wrong way and don't appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store, this car dealership, this wherever you are. You are knocking yourself out—a tough sales job; you're trying to feed your family. People are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth."
Because how do they see it?
You know, it's not about you, and it's not about—it's really not sympathy.
You know, the difference between sympathy and empathy: "I feel your pain!"
Right!
Like, I've been there too, you know, like, I'm a regular guy like—yeah, yeah, yeah, like don't give me that regular guy stuff!
So—but you look at me like you want something for nothing, to come walking in all the time.
You know, you look at us as wanting discounts, and you know, and you're trying to feed your family.
Now, suddenly this person is like, "Oh, wow, they get it! This is not the other annoying jerk that came in here!"
Now they're starting to open up, and then, you know, you talked before about being playful.
Being playful about this can be a really big deal.
I've gotten so many things for free, for being playful or upgrades or discounts just by—let me just say a friendly joke or just something funny, right?
You know, let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, "What is this guy doing?"
You know?
Yeah, you've just got—you don't gotta pay the aggravation tax!
Yeah! And then, plus, see Sean says you're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind.
Not only have you put the person in a better mood, you've now got them thinking about options: what can they do?
What, you know, how can they help you?
What can they get away with?
How can they shortcut the TSA line?
How can they—what's the code for the employee discount?
Like, I—you know, in the same place where I'm trying to get this 30% off and I'm joking around with this guy.
Sure!
And one of the things, get him to see as a human being, I'm like, "Well, I'm Chris; is there a Chris discount? What kind of Chris discount?"
And then laugh at that, and so and I'm still not getting enough of a discount, and finally I go like, "Look, give me the employee discount! I've been joking around!"
And I smile when I say this.
This guy goes like, "If I give you the employee discount, I gotta pay for this thing myself!"
And I go, "I'll pay you back!"
And I'm laughing.
And he laughs.
And so he looks at the machine, and I says, "Wait right here," and he walks around, and I see him—I walked up to a person I perceive to be the manager, and he's whispering to the manager's ear.
And I see this manager standing going like, "No, no, no, really."
And he comes walking back, and another employee intercepts him and whispers in his ear, and I see his eyes light up.
And he walks over and he plugs in a discount for me, and we get the 30% off!
Wow!
But I was joking with him; I was showing—I knew what it looked like from his perspective.
I'm getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing, you know?
Let somebody else pay the demanding, aggressive, annoying tax.
You go in there and you brighten somebody else's day up; you leave the world a better place.
You get some practice in!
Mm-hmm.
Because you want that confidence for the big negotiation, right?
And all these things work for you, and you end up feeling better about the day, yourself!
Yes, you had a fun interaction!
Yeah! You got a discount!
Exactly!
Do you practice every day on any trends?
I mean any financial transaction? Are you practicing even if it's a cup of coffee, if it's a gas station, if it's a hotel—it's a plan—any—are you always pricing?
It's a perishable skill, and me and everybody on my team, if we let ourselves get out of practice, we get rusty.
Interesting!
I'm really used to my knowing two questions; that's pretty much all I ask.
What questions?
Uh, no-oriented where I'm trying to get you to say "no."
That's what you do deeply? You're pricing that cost?
I keep that, I keep that teed up—console: "Is it a ridiculous idea?"
It's kind of your go-to.
Yeah, is it a ridiculous idea for me to get a 30% employee discount today?
Yeah!
And so, depending upon my daily interactions, I get so caught up in my world, then I don't get my practice in.
Mm-hmm!
And so, like when we started traveling in right after the pandemic, I'm getting ready to go into a hotel. I haven't done a hotel upgrade in a while, and I almost talked myself out, really.
I am, I'm like, "Oh, this—you know, amygdala is kicking in; it's not going to work; I'm going to embarrass myself."
Yeah!
I can see this guy turning me down.
I mean, they literally stand outside the hotel and kind of go, "Alright, alright, you can do this. Come on, come on, you can do it; you can do it."
And I gotta psych myself up because I'm out of practice!
Yeah!
But you're the guy that's right—everybody. It's perishable for everybody; it is not riding a bike.
Yeah!
And then you also got to be willing—like if it works nine times out of ten, sometimes you don't get anything right.
A hotel was in recently. You know, my read of the guy is—you run across deceptive people that are not there to help you that are not going to give you anything.
And through the course of the interaction, I get several very strong reads that this person was that minority that we're all afraid of—is the majority; they're a minority, and they're there.
And so that interaction was art.
So my read is this and this, and now, I'm smarter.
I see this guy coming farther away like Conor McGregor: "You win or you learn!"
Sure, sure.
You win or you learn!
Now I'm curious; when you go into a store, a hotel, you know, airport—is it, and there's multiple options of people to talk to, who you would buy from or get upgraded from—there's two people at the counter, there's three people at the store.
Are you assessing first who I should approach based on body language, based on if they smile, if they're in a more positive state?
Or is it depending on male or female?
Do you have a success rate based on—is it just more intuitive feeling that who you walk up to?
You know, I hadn't thought about that before.
What I'm really more worried about is what kind of vibe I'm putting off.
Like, I don't have a lot of control over who I'm going to get.
In point of fact, they're reading me before I start reading them because, you know, they got a revolving door; they're picking up this energy.
I think there's actual energy there.
It's one of the things I bounced off of Andrew Huberman: you know—is the energy actually there?
Interesting!
And he's like—the data doesn't support it; I suspect it's possible.
Uh-huh!
And he's a very data-driven guy; he's solid—solid science, solid science, peer-reviewed journals.
Yes!
He's like, "The data ain't there yet," but I think it exists.
That's Chris Voss saying that, not Andrew Huberman.
Andrew didn't say that.
He didn't say, "I think it exists!"
Chris Voss says: "I think it exists!"
These people behind the counter, they're picking up on my vibe, so what I got to do instead of sitting there like, "I want this guy to do it; I want this guy."
I might be putting off a bad vibe.
I need to put off a relaxed vibe.
Yeah! Just go walk it right now—not in any hurry, like I'm cool.
If I'm looking at them, I got to make sure I'm looking at them, and my inner voice is saying like, "Take your time."
I know you guys are busy, right?
I can't look at them like, "Do your job; I'm standing here; I'm a customer; you should be waiting."
They're going to pick up on that.
That's my inner voice, so I got to get my inner voice in a place where I'm giving off a positive vibe—relaxed, positive—then I'm gonna roll up, and I'm gonna do a read on a person in a moment.
You know, if they look like they're having a bad day, I'm going to say, "Tough day?"
I'm hitting the reads on the TSA people all the time really for practice.
I do a misread on a TSA guy; don't remember what airport I was in.
I ended up in an unexpected negotiation on the phone 15 minutes later because of the misread.
I looked at this TSA guy, and he just looked kind of blank, and I said, "Tough day," any kind of way.
And then I went, "Just another day."
Right?
He goes, "Yeah, just another day."
But that little read is like stretching before going in the game.
And the conversation I had 15 minutes later—which caught me off guard—because I did the read earlier; it was a really successful conversation.
What was that conversation?
I needed a favor from somebody.
What I did, I said, "Am I offending you if I ask you for this favor?" Because I needed him to go out of my way for me, and I did the no-oriented question and I did sort of, you know, what am I going to do if I asked him; I might offend him.
I'm doing an emotional read; I throw the two of them together on the spur of the moment, which is really kind of where you want to get, you know?
You know, you play the same notes over and over and over, and suddenly you combine them in the moment: that's pretty cool!
And that's why I work on my normative questions all the time, and I'll do a random cold read the TSA guy.
My favorite one—I’ve always got a bottle of water in my bag; I forget to pour out the water.
Do you say New Jersey?
I got a New Jersey!
Uh-huh!
TSA, I'm going to put up with you!
Exactly!
So they get the water, and they're taking my bag off to the side—now they could almost walk me back out to the curb because the line is so long.
They're too secure, and the guy's got the bag.
And I realized I don't want to spend another 20 minutes in line, so I go, "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned."
And he walks—he looks at me, he walks and looks at me, and he goes, "How long since your last confession?"
Myself—you know, it's funny!
And I'm like, "You know what, an hour ago! I'm screwing up all the time!"
Yeah!
And he took the water; he poured it out; he’s not supposed to pour it out; he poured it out for me; he turned around and walked me back, caught me in line in front of everybody else, put me right back to the thing and said, "Yeah, I'm taking care of this guy. It's okay."
And it pulled me through!
Wow! That's great!
That's amazing!
Someone taught me this like 12 years ago, and he said, "Use this: Say, 'What are the chances that you can do this? What are the chances you can get me an upgrade? What are the chances you’d be able to do this?'"
Yeah!
After you've created the rapport and the connection and all those things—what's the chance?
And that has worked really well for me!
And I'm wondering, why do you think using that has also worked?
Okay, so, and I'm glad you brought that up because you asked me about questions before.
If you're going to ask the question, they should only start with either the words "how" or "what," because they feel very deferential to the other side.
People love to be asked what somebody should do or how somebody should do something; it's extremely appealing to the other side.
There's great power in deference; it feels deferential, so it's a lot more impactful than just saying it's an open-ended question.
The who, what, when, where, why, and how should really just be narrowed down to what and how.
Okay?
Now, "how" is primarily—but not exclusively to map implementation.
"How am I supposed to do that?" is actually how am I supposed to implement that?
Mm-hmm!
What, you know, how do we get this done? It's implementation; "what" primarily, but not exclusively, is to uncover obstacles.
What stands in the way?
What are the chances?
So when you put it like that, you got a "what" question; it feels deferential.
It's open-ended; it triggers deep thinking.
Danny Kahneman talks about deep, slow thinking.
Your demeanor is very genuine and curious and connective; you want to talk with people.
And then, "What are the chances?" triggers people to immediately begin to assess where the obstacles in the environment are.
And they're really gonna probably, if you look back at all your answers, because "What are the chances?"—most of the time, if I were to technically answer that question, the answer would be like 50, 75, right?
And point of fact, people probably say, "Well, here's what we got to overcome; here's what we got to do," and here's what that would look like.
They would be answering you in regards to the things to be overcome in order to make it happen, and then you can negotiate more.
And then they would think about chances or how hard each of those obstacles would be to overcome.
So those are the things I love about that question.
That's interesting!
When you're practicing again, you're practicing all the time.
I feel like this is something I've been doing as just a game in my life—just like a fun challenge.
Can I get this from this person? Can I do this? Can I get an upgrade? It's just like a fun thing that I've been doing for a while.
But when I started reading your book and having you on, I was like, "Okay, I need to do this even more!"
The question I'm curious about is, with every interaction, is there always something we can get—even if they say "no?"
Like, for example, if they say, "No, we can't upgrade you," I try to say, "Well, can I have a free mint?"
And if they say, "Oh, we don't have any mints," then I say, "Can I get a fist bump?"
You know, can I get a smile? I'm always trying to like get a something—even if it’s a little something!
What's your thoughts on that?
Like even if they say "yeah," even if they say "no" to everything that you want—can you smile for me? Can you be about water? Can you give me something?
You know?
Yeah, yeah!
No! I love it!
As energy; there's measurable energy!
So it's always—if you're a complete mercenary, it's your advantage to be increasing your positive karma, right?
It's going to constantly increase your chances of success!
Right!
And the more karma you leave around you, you know, whether it's real or whether—who knows what it is—but you're gonna increase your chances of success!
Yes!
And so—or, you know, you increase the chance of success to the guy behind you, and the guy behind you ends up sitting next to you on a plane, or, you know, whoever's in line alongside you.
As you're increasing that karma is probably there because, yeah, if it's on the airplane, they're going to be on the plane next time; it might be a dude next to you!
You know, they might be the guy who either rubs the flight attendant the wrong way or he makes her feel good, and consequently when she walks up to you, she has a different—I mean, there's you know, the sort of the domino effect!
The domino effect's always there!
So I love that; I love that approach!
Yeah!
Yeah!
And then, on point of fact, you're doing it in a positive fashion which keeps you smarter!
So you're probably more prepared for your next interaction, right?
And there's nothing that fuels all momentum like success!
Yes! So for Uganda, I—dude! It was a fist bump, right?
You're walking forward with a success, something!
Yeah!
Okay, good to know!
Can you share for you your greatest negotiation, both when you were working FBI—could be not in a hostage situation—but just the greatest negotiation you had during your time there, and also your greatest negotiation in life outside of that?
This could be something small; this could have been for, like, the biggest deal ever—this could have been an intimate relationship; this could have been buying a car; this could be, you know, rescuing a hostage.
But I'm curious if you can give one example personal life and professional life.
Wow!
Yeah! I mean there were some different victories in hostage negotiation.
After a really bad debacle, a second case I worked in the Philippines—the Burnham-Sabra case—two or three hostages died in friendly fire at the end; that whole case was 13 months from beginning.
And a lot of people died; it was a train wreck. It was ugly from start to finish.
An American citizen was executed early on.
I mean, everything about that was ugly—everything!
And we had somebody got proof of life in the middle of that case, and I don't know who it was or how they got it, and all we find out one of our hostages on the phone—hostages only ever on the phone for proof of life, and he ain't on the phone with us, and we're thinking like, "Who the heck is out there? Is there a competing bidder for the hostages?"
Like, it was insane!
So struggled with that for a long time, finally, got the revelation how it's done which is, in my view, somebody on the other side and another player, as to how questioned.
So that was when we first got on to how questions: drug dealer in Pittsburgh, really.
Drug dealer?
On a drug dealer kidnapping, the drug dealer goes to the FBI because who do you go to when somebody in poor do you get kidnapped?
The FBI!
No matter who you are, even if you're a drug dealer, his girlfriend gets grabbed by another drug dealer!
Huh!
Hostage negotiators riding around with this guy on his own; he says to the other bad guy, "Hey dog—" it's my favorite phrase of all time—"Hey dog, how do I know she's alive?"
How questioned—everything changes in that moment!
Who really had the upper hand?
Shifted from the guy with the "quote" leverage who had the hostage!
Total shift in upper hand when he asked that how questioned!
So I'm like, "This is it! This is it! This is it! We gotta change; start doing how questions!"
We got another kidnapping in Ecuador, this guy named Pepe, whom I'm still friends with—the kidnapper—the hostage.
Oh, yeah, sorry! I got you!
I was like, I got some bizarre friends!
I got former prison gang members that are friends!
I’m sure you do!
Yeah!
But none of them were hostage things!
Okay!
Yeah!
So this was the hostage, hostage Pepe; he's still a friend; he and his family.
So we asked a how question.
Now the—it's in Ecuador, and the gala—which is the local police in Ecuador— they're like, "We don't do it like that down here; we ask a different proof-of-life question."
Pepe's wife afterwards says she knew there was tension between the FBI and the gala, and she knew it was there, but she appreciated professionalism that nobody would argue in front of her.
Well, they were arguing about this change I wanted to make, so we're doing a journalistic how question.
And halfway through this thing, they start referring to Pepe as Don Pepe.
And we're like, “What? Don? That’s a sign of respect! What in God's name is going on on the other side of the table?”
And about 28 days in, Don Pepe makes good his escape—goes out 2 o'clock in a driving rainstorm, middle of the jungle, goes out a window.
He's a jungle guy; he was a jungle guide ahead of time.
In 28 days, he'd been there; he figured out where the nearest town was, how to get there.
He knew if he goes out in the rain, all he needs is a 20-minute head start.
They're not going to be able to track him; he's gonna be able to get down; he's gonna be able to get out of there.
Interesting!
28 days in, I get a call from the same negotiator that had called me a year earlier and said "I got bad news; Martin Burnham is dead."
This same guy happens to be in Ecuador on my behalf, and he says, "Hey, Pepe’s out. He escaped!"
He hasn't got out of guerrilla territory yet; he's on a bus; we're going to meet him.
Wow!
And so I'm—this is all this how thing, so we never got proof of life!
I can't wait to interview Pepe; he's actually a New York State resident; he's an American citizen, dual national.
I'm sitting down with him in upstate New York, and I'm like, "Hey, you know, we never got proof of life."
We were asking us how a question, and he said, "You know, it’s crazy! The whole time, they talked about taking me to town to put me on the phone."
And they kept talking with me about that, and that was one of the major factors that he went from being a commodity, a piece of property that they were housing in a house waiting to be sold—to this forced interaction on the other side of the table where they had to talk to him regularly, kind of build a relationship with them.
And he happened to be very good at relationship building!
Wow!
So we triggered the interaction, and then he capitalized on it with his natural gut instincts!
Wow!
Creating the opportunity—they relaxed his security so much because they got to know him as a person; they were less worried about him running away.
They got very relaxed around him; they let—they gave him the run of the camp!
He sees the opportunity 2 a.m. rainstorm—he's gone!
Wow!
And that, to me, that was like: great negotiations give the opportunity for good things to happen, and you don't get so focused on your outcome that you wouldn't take something better.
And just engage in a process—let great things happen!
Wow!
And he escaped!
And that was not part of the game plan, and I realized if we've got a great process, if good things are going to happen, you've got to let them happen.
Yes, that's powerful!
And what about personal life?
Outside of the FBI, what's the best, most memorable negotiation?
Again, it could be some big deal or something that was small but really meaningful to you.
Wow!
Director of Operations, Black Swan Group—Chelsey loves working with us!
And we initially brought her in as one of the virtual assistants—not an employee.
And you get a virtual assistant because if they don't work out, you don't gotta fire them; you say, "Hey, this person was the right fit; we learned about fit!"
Chelsey is phenomenal!
And just loves working with us, and the most satisfying one was when we hired her.
The virtual company wanted to continue with us as a customer, and we were a good customer!
And so they let, you know, the deal that you sign in advance is if you hire an assistant, you've got to pay them a penalty.
You've got to pay them like 30 or 50% of that year's salary or whatever.
Yeah, right!
Like they waived that!
We brought Chelsey on; we got a waiver because we continue to do business with them and we're a good customer and we're not demanding jerks—no aggravation tax!
But we took one of their top people, so that negotiation went well!
And when we brought Chelsey on board, we gave her a substantial raise, and she she almost broke down in tears.
Wow!
That's cool!
That's cool!
And she's to this day, like, I joke around that she's—I'm a toddler, and she's [Laughter] she's a minor; she keeps tracking me, right?
Right!
And if I'm not where I'm supposed to be, you know, I'm getting a buzzing on my phone!
Yeah!
That's great!
In a world that has now shifted to what seems like might be for a while half-virtual, half-in-person, this kind of flexible style of communication—what have you noticed over the last couple of years about the challenges of virtual negotiations versus in-person negotiations?
See, that's another reason why I think this energy thing that you feel is real because, you know, but people get on Zoom, and they're like, "You know I got to see him! I got to see him! I got to be in person!"
Like you got almost all the same data visually that you had before.
Yes!
Like if you and I are meeting in person and we're at a table, I don't see you from the waist down!
Right!
If we're on Zoom, I
Was how hard that was going to be. Yes, because in throwing it out there, I want to get a feel for… is this a layup for you? Is this a slam dunk? Am I — do I think it's a slam dunk and you think it's a three-point shot, right? Or it's a half-court shot.
Yeah, now I'm teasing this out. Like, there are things like that that could be good opportunities for some people, but is your team set up and ready to move forward? Right, that's really where all that comes in. So if somebody has a great opportunity, I got to know what the journey looks like.
My team is set up; no, it's not, right? But I can't jump at that opportunity. And there are a number of places out there that are glittering jewels in the distance, like Dubai, which I'm thinking seriously about setting up shop there. Really, but it doesn't work for everybody, right?
Right. So I got somebody saying to me, "Dubai is an opportunity." That ain't good enough, right? I've been there twice. It's actually pretty fascinating what they built. I mean, it's pretty impressive. But again, you're on the other side of the world, you know? And if you do a lot of business in the U.S., it's just different. You got to see if that could be a bigger benefit.
What's the journey to the opportunity and what are the obstacles in the route? Absolutely. And very few people think about that because a great idea looks like a great opportunity, and they don't have an appreciation for the landscape on the way.
Chris, you're the master negotiator. I want people to follow you, I want them to get your book, I want them to check you out: blackswanltd.com. The newsletter is that right? Slash the Edge. The newsletter is The Edge. Gotcha, but the website is a gold mine. Yes, there's a lot of free stuff — so much good stuff there.
Yeah, I mean, they got to get your book. You know, if you're watching this or listening, you got to get your book. That's step one — go through that. Never Split the Difference. It's incredible. So I don't know how many copies have you sold now? You sold so many, do you know? Worldwide we're over three million.
Three million, it's incredible, man. That's the other good thing about it. This works in every country. Yes, like I'm in Dubai, a young female, Asian female walks up to me. I don’t know until I assess; she tells me she's Chinese. She says, "I negotiate with your book all the time."
I go, "Let me get this straight. You're in China, right?" She's like, "Yeah, I'm Chinese." Like, okay, so you're using Never Split the Difference to negotiate with Chinese people in China? And she's like, "Yeah." I just want to make sure that’s cool.
Three million copies! So if you guys don’t have the book yet, get the book: blackswanltd.com. So many good resources, articles — all this different stuff you got on there. I love all your stuff there. Thanks. We've got a couple previous interviews with you; we'll make sure to link those up. But I think this was a good refresher and some more stories you shared here, which is really cool.
Always a pleasure having you on. I've got a question for you; how else can we be of support and service to you today besides people getting the newsletter, getting the book, following you on social media?
You know what we're trying to do? And you and I talked about this a little bit before, so mention again: we're trying to slowly back into the space of improving police-community-minority-community relations. Neither side realizes how traumatized their counterparts are. So, um, the cops—many street cops are suffering from traumatic stress, yes? The communities that they're serving are suffering from worse traumatic stress.
So it's not surprising that there's problems. So what we're trying to do is gently, quietly figure out ways to increase understanding with the other side. So if you're in law enforcement, spend some time in the community where you're not on the job. If you're in a community that needs cops but it's not getting along with them, whatever you could do to give a cop a break — mm-hmm — and take it a little bit easier on them.
Yeah, to not honk at them when they're blocking traffic. To realize, you know, they're not intentionally trying to screw up my day. We’re just gently trying to get into the space, ever so gently, because these are two communities that need each other.
Yeah, how are you guys doing that? Or how can people support that? One of our trainers, Troy Smith, um, he's got an organization called Walk a Mile in My Shoes, and he's developing relationships between, uh, the police and disadvantaged communities, which is usually really a euphemism for Black, by and large.
The communities that struggle the most on a regular basis, for whatever reasons. There's no shortage of blame across the board; no group is without sin. Mm-hmm. But what Troy's doing with Walk a Mile in My Shoes is making a difference.
That's cool. Okay, where can they check that out or learn more? Ah, take Google Walk A Mile in My Shoes; you'll probably find it. Yeah, yeah he should… I think they've got it set up on his website, um, but, uh, or email us.
Okay. Email info@blackswanltd.com. Say you want to be supportive of Walk A Mile in My Shoes. Nice, and we'll turn you on to them.
Okay, cool. I want to acknowledge you, Chris, for your constant — you're constantly showing up and giving people tools, strategies, uh, resources to become better communicators, to become better negotiators in ethical, uh, win-win situations, not manipulative situations. For giving people strategies to have a more enriched life.
Yeah, and it's really cool you continue to show up this way, so I appreciate you for all that you're doing and the consistent effort you add to the world. I've asked you this question before, but I'll see if it's different. Three truths questions: Let's imagine it's your last day on earth and you've accomplished everything you want, but for whatever reason — every reason — you got to take all of your work with you, so no one has access to your books or your messages or this interview; it's gone.
But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, and this is all we would have of your wisdom, your life experience, that you would share behind. What would be those three truths for you?
You know, before you disagree with anybody, see if you can lay out what their position is, how they see it. Are you free to disagree, or do you want — but you got to lay it out. Before I disagree, I can tell this is how you feel about this, and lay it out in a way that they would say, "That's right."
And you can disagree all you want. Yeah, like, if people would just do that, the amount of stress and anxiety in the world would decrease because they would feel seen and heard and understood. Right?
Yeah, okay, that's number one. That's one. And how many more do I gotta do? Two more. Don't quit because your competition's going to. Um, you know the McDonald's movie, The Founder, you know, depending upon how you — how, uh, what you thought of that movie, Michael Keaton in that role, you know, early on he's listening to a motivational speaker: you know, persistence, persistence, persistence.
And then after he's a big success, he's giving the same speech, like… and it's cliché, you know, to be persistent, but the reality is your competition's gonna quit. Like, like the Black Swan team, we're not gonna quit, um, and we're not in a hurry.
But by and large, all of our competition in our space is slowly falling by the wayside because they're gonna quit. They're gonna stop learning; they're gonna lay back on their laurels, and that's just not our competition. Like, your competition's gonna quit.
So all you gotta do—Molly Bloom says you never lose if you don't quit. You can't lose; your competition's gonna quit. If you just don't give up, just keep showing up. All you gotta do.
You know, there is no finish line. Looking at all the different ways that you hear from other directions, like there's no finish line. Like when am I gonna be done? Your competition's gonna quit, right?
So if you don't quit, you're going to outlast the people that you're competing against. Okay. And then finally, just learn. Just learn slowly. There's a phrase out there, you know, the only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster than your competition.
Don't pressure yourself to learn fast because if you don't quit and you just learn slowly, then those two things are gonna build. But if you pressure yourself to learn fast, like you have a bad day, uh, somebody takes you out, and, um, you have a great night out; like, you know, I'm old enough these days. Like I can drink as much as I used to, but it takes me two days to get over instead of a half a day.
Yeah, but if I got heavy pressure on myself to learn a lot every day and I lose a day now, I'm kicking myself because I feel like I lost a lot. But if I only want to learn a little bit each day and I got a day where I'm in the tank and I didn't do any good; I didn’t get out of bed or I didn't eat right, like I haven't lost a lot.
I can recover from a lost day very easily if I don't pressure myself for each day to be big. So just learn just a little bit each day and don't quit, and you're gonna get to meet interesting, cool people, like Louis.
High five! There you go, there you go. I love it.
Um, final question: what's your definition of greatness? For a man, to be a gentleman. And I realize that, you know, some people want to say these are chauvinistic terms. The equivalent term for a woman would be "lady."
But somebody close to me once pointed out the highest compliment you could ever pay a man is referring to him as a gentleman. You know, so integrity, polite, hardworking — look out for other people.
Um, you know, I stand when a woman walks in a room, I pull out a chair, my girlfriend cannot get into a vehicle that I don't open a door for. You know, that to me — to be a gentleman is to be a success.
And as an equivalent term, whatever that term might be, regardless of your gender or your gender orientation or whatever it is, to be a good human being — and whatever that label is, that doesn't restrict you, but you know causes you to be your highest self.
Chris, appreciate it, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. I think bravery is something that we don't speak about, and courage is something we don't speak about. We don't do it in a very overt way, in a very physical way, in a very engaged way. It's talked about as this like thing: "Oh, be brave, be motivated." Where is that?
You have to manifest that with your body.