Transcription
Whatever your quality of being is, is what your creations will also embody. So if you're giving drunk out, and you're giving traumatized, and you're giving triggered all the time, it's exactly what your creations will look like. So girl, not you're dragging us like this! Yes, let them know why creating a life that is authentic, bold, and purposeful takes audacity and truth-telling. It takes disruption. That is what it means to be a professional troublemaker. Professional Troublemaker is a bestselling book, this podcast, and frankly, a life habit. And I'm your host, Luvvie Ajayi Jones. I'm here to bring you perspectives, deep dives, and conversations about culture, business, life, and leadership. Welcome to season 5, which I'm really excited about! This season is dedicated to the glory and grit of entrepreneurship.
2023 was my toughest year as a business owner, and there was a point where I was three months away from being bankrupt. So let's talk about it. Let's get really real about running your own business—the good, the bad, and the ugly. Because while people love to glorify entrepreneurship, they often leave out the tough lessons, the failures, and the pivots that had to happen. My hope after this series of episodes is that you feel more informed about what it truly takes to run a purpose-driven business, you feel less alone about all the times you messed up, and you walk away knowing what to avoid so you don't make some of the same mistakes I've made.
Let's get into it! I recorded this episode in October because I wanted to drop it on you all as a great way to wrap up this season. Even further, you know I talked about the rebuild episode, but this episode I wanted to drop as a continuation to talk about how you can ethically build a business that's not going to burn you out and stress you out while making good money. And then the election happens, and we find ourselves with a result that honestly feels devastating. I wavered on whether I should post this episode or not, but I realized, no, no, no! The reason why I wanted to create this particular episode and even talk about entrepreneurship this season has been about how do we get free, and economics is a huge part of that. The ways that we're able to design and build lives that are sustainable is a huge part of that. For me, entrepreneurship is another path to being able to create more financial stability for me, financial freedom for me.
So yeah, I decided to still post this episode because now more than ever, women especially being able to be financially free is in itself a form of revolution. We need it to fight the battles because if we can't figure out where our next meal is coming from, there are no battles to fight besides survival. So yeah, I'm excited to bring you this conversation that I have with Khloe Hakim Moore, a woman who has built financial freedom for herself and created multiple eight-figure companies. So dig in and check the show notes because we have a lot in there for you to click on, act on, and move on.
Let's jump in! Today, I'm excited to be joined by Khloe Hakim Moore. Y'all know this season I've been talking about entrepreneurship being a dumpster fire, my company crumbling last year, and the rebuild. So I have very much been tuned into who knows what they're talking about in this space because there's a lot of noise in this space. With this season, where I've been very transparent, I wanted to bring y'all a bonus episode to talk to somebody who has built multiple million-dollar companies—who knows her, okay? Because yes, now that I've told you all the madness, let's talk about what it actually takes to be successful at building your own business, generating wealth while honoring purpose.
Right? So Khloe, welcome to Professional Troublemaker!
Yeah, thank you for having me! This is literally a dream come true, so I'm just honored. Trying not to fangirl and stay focused, but I'm very excited to be here.
Glad to have you! So I want my people to recognize your badassery and kind of who you are. So let's talk about it. Let's start with the flexes. Chloe, tell me one thing that you have done that is truly a flex in entrepreneurship or building your own business.
Yep! I recently have been really proud of the fact that I grew up in a family using food stamps, and I made it to Forbes 30 Under 30. No trust fund, not coming from wealth, none of that. And it hasn't changed who I am. But it is one of those things that I'm very proud of—to know that you can build from... I don't even say I built from nothing because I had a lot of cultural wealth, a lot of familial warmth. I had so many of the things you cannot buy, but we did not have financial wealth. So to go from chronic food stamp usage to Forbes 30 Under 30, that to me is a recent flex.
That is definitely a flex! Also, the fact that you were on Forbes—what year were you on Forbes 30 Under 30?
2020.
How old are you?
Yeah, I'm 30.
Girl, not me being the elder stateswoman here! So how did you end up on the Forbes 30 Under 30 list?
Yeah, so I was doing work. I trained formerly as an anthropologist and sociologist, and it just so happens that those skills lend themselves really well to business. I'm born and raised in Memphis, chose to be educated and work in Memphis. One of the things that I noticed early on was the huge gap between who understands a city and who's making decisions on its behalf.
As I started to work at a research firm, they needed an anthropologist. I just happened to be an anthropologist who was from Memphis, so I was the only person on the team who actually had lived experience in Memphis and also had lived experiences within the systems that we were supposed to be reforming for the betterment of the community.
I was doing a lot of work with refugee and immigrant populations around food entrepreneurship. I then got switched teams to work on a childcare project because I had a racist manager, and they were like, "We need you to switch teams while we figure out how to get her out." So I fell into early childhood education on accident. But as I was going through it, looking at the systemic barriers in Memphis, looking at how to take the expertise that's so often overlooked—just grassroots expertise—how do you bring that to the table and fund it with real dollars? That was one of my specialties.
As a researcher, my role quickly developed into, "Oh, she's actually leading the project. She's building out the work." I was on a team where I was the most junior salaried, the most junior degreed person. I had people on my team making literally three times my salary, but they found out quickly that I was the one carrying the work. At that time, I wasn't even upset. I was fresh out of college. I was like, "Look, I'm just happy to have a full-time salary, period." So I wasn't thinking about the fact they made three times more than I did but didn't know a third of what I know. I was just thinking of the fact that I could be in meeting rooms that traditionally my community is not invited to, and I could represent. I could help make decisions a little less shitty for our people.
I also had the team lead at that time, who was one of the co-founders of the company, decide to leave. I will spare you all the messiness of that, but in it, he said, "I'm also going to make sure before I leave I tell the funders you've been driving the project. So if they choose to keep someone on, it's going to be you." And he got his word. He told them, "She's actually been the one doing all these reports you've been liking for me. It's actually her work, so if you want to keep this work going, you should hire her."
And so that is what got me into connection with all of these funders, with the people who are in government offices or nonprofit executives or private organizations like corporations and things like that. That's what got me interfacing with them and allowed me to build two different nonprofits that were both eight figures apiece and fully funded. So both of those nonprofits were in early care and education and looking at how you transform systems to be more effective.
My work in early care and education is what got me on the Forbes 30 Under 30 list as somebody who has run a nonprofit before, built one from scratch. Getting a nonprofit to eight figures is some superhuman. I could not figure it out. Nonprofits are the ultimate in trying to build a business because that business is technically owned by the people. So also, the fact that you can make a nonprofit in that way profitable to that level is wildly impressive.
Thank you! I appreciate that.
Let's talk about what are the skills that you have that actually led to that type of success.
Yeah, I think first and foremost, I have an insatiable curiosity, and I think I've worked really hard to uncouple any tendency to judge quickly because I definitely at some point in my life would make snap judgments of things. The more I've understood how dynamic people's lives are and how even stuff that doesn't look rational to me is likely rational in someone else's choice set that I don't have access to, it's really been a process of decoupling my curiosity and judgment.
Because I have been working on having this openness, it's allowed me to be in so many different environments, so many different situations, and to just be seeing like, "Okay, there are things here that don't make sense to this person, but that makes sense to that person." But they have shared things. So my ability to find the commonalities within what might look like they're supposed to be opposing or might look like they don't normally fit together, I think is one of them.
I also think I just see in systems. I take—I have my clients do this too—but when I took the Clifton StrengthsFinder assessment, my top two skills are strategy and empathy. I really think that sums it up. My ability to understand systems but to care for people, I think bringing those two things together has allowed me to really flourish in strategic roles.
Let me look up my Clifton StrengthsFinder real quick. Ah, so my top two when I took this in 2020—I should probably retake it—input and context. And then number three is connectedness, four is belief, and five is responsibility.
Context is such a powerful one too! Say more.
Yeah, I think it's really difficult this day and age to critically think, and I do not blame individuals for this. I actually don't, and I really mean that. I think on a macro scale, the way we are being conditioned to take in information so rapidly and keep moving on, it's not socially rewarded to pause and think or to try to weave threads together. It's very much like our current structures rely and thrive on reactivity, compulsion, and indecision, even—all of which are things that are not rooted.
So for context to be—and you're a phenomenal storyteller, so of course context makes sense—but for you to be able to weave together things in a way that is sensical, I do think it's a really important skill.
So throughout this episode, I actually want to drop different actions for y'all to take. So the first one I'm actually going to drop since we're talking about it: I think you should go take the Clifton StrengthsFinder test. It is a test that you take that gives you 34—it basically puts all these different assets or attributes about you and organizes them, right? It creates an order from 1 to 34. So like my last is includer. My number 34 is includer. So I am very much like, I want to do myself in this way because my last one is ter. But yes, so number one thing, action for y'all to take is go take the Clifton StrengthsFinder test, and in the show notes, we're going to have the links for you to use to get to all these different things that we're going to recommend.
If I could also say, just really quickly for a co-sign of this, for anyone who struggles to articulate their gifts, for anyone who struggles to talk themselves up, let this be a tool that helps you. So you notice how I said my top—I took the assessment and my top two strengths are strategy and empathy. It's an easy framework for me to use to explain what my skills are. So hopefully that's helpful to you all listening as well.
Yes! Okay, so is there another type of test like this that you actually think people should take?
Yeah, I think the DISC assessment is really good for anyone who leads a team or anyone who is on a project. Even if you're not the team leader, if you are in a project that involves multiple people, it is very important to be conscious of people's responses when they are stressed and when they're not. I think the DISC assessment is really good at helping you understand how people are wired and how teams can better function together.
So what does that one do different? Because I've actually heard about DISC; I haven't taken it yet.
It's more leadership-focused. So if Clifton Strengths is like, "How would I describe Luvvie as an individual?" the DISC assessment would be, "What are Luvvie's tendencies when it comes to leadership, and how does Luvvie show up interpersonally when you are in flow versus when you are in stress?" Right? So it is very interpersonally focused, whereas Clifton, you can extrapolate how you and another person might work together. Like if both of y'all's discipline is rock bottom, you probably need somebody with great discipline to balance y'all out. But DISC is more intentional with that.
Yes! So I love taking these assessments because part of, for me, like I'm all to your point of curiosity—like I am a forever student. I'm always trying to learn more. And one of the things that saved me this last year was that intense curiosity as I rebuilt my company—just being open to what felt like I needed to do next, like taking a bunch of assessments, learning who I am as a leader has been important to me, learning where my energy is has been really important to me.
So I took another one called Working Genius. Have you heard about Working Genius?
No, I haven't.
Okay, so Working Genius is an assessment that searches for what kind of builds your energy at work. So yeah, my Working Genius—and it breaks it down into, I think, six different things: like what are your frustrations, where's your energy, and where's your competency? Because the more that we spend in our frustrations, the harder work is.
So the Working Genius, it'll tell you what areas are your Working Genius, what areas are your Working Competency, and what areas are your Working Frustration. So for that one, it says I am naturally—my Working Geniuses are invention and tenacity. So I am naturally gifted and derive energy from creating original ideas. Yeah, I'm also naturally gifted from pushing projects to completion to ensure that desired results are achieved.
So for me, it actually started explaining some of last year's frustrations because my whole goal is I come up with ideas, and I want to see them finished. I don't want to deal with the middle. I don't want to be the one helping you come up with the plan to get us to the finish, but I want to see us get to finish. So my Working Competency is galvanizing and enablement. So galvanizing, I'm capable of, and I don't mind rallying people and inspiring them to take actions around my ideas. Yeah, I don't mind providing others with encouragement and assistance, but they're not my genius; I just don't mind doing it right now.
My frustration is discernment and wonder. So I am not naturally gifted and don't find energy in using my instincts to evaluate those ideas. So once I have the idea, you tell me if it's good or not. I don't want to be the one that's like analyzing whether it's a good idea. I would just tell you the idea; I need somebody to reflect it back to me. And then my other Working Frustration is I don't find energy or joy from pondering the possibility of a greater potential. I'm not the one that's like, "Let's scale it and make it this big." I come to you with the big idea already.
So it actually taught me some of last year's losses and why I faced them because I was surrounded by people who required me to embody my Working Frustrations.
Oh, right!
Yeah! So if you're listening to this, y'all, and you're running your own company, you have a team, and you're having a tough time, Working Genius is another assessment I think you should take just to tell you kind of why you're walking around pissed. Because if you are doing too much in your frustration, you're going to be like, "I don't want to talk to nobody!"
I don't want to talk to nobody!
So yeah, no, you're very much giving me—so you seem to be like you thrive best when you are in the visionary CEO role, yes?
Not an operator CEO.
Yes! And I've been operating as an operator CEO. That makes sense!
Yeah! So can you self-describe as an artist as well?
Do I self-describe? I would not have probably 10 years ago, but I probably do now.
Well, that makes sense! Yeah, I'm a pragmatic artist, though, for sure.
For sure! I think artist doesn't have to be floaty, right? I think sometimes people hear artist and they think not grounded, not practical. But I think artist is someone whose creativity is just very activated. And activated, I don't mean reactive; it's just on, right? So you seem to me like a very artistic person.
Am I?
I can confirm that part! Like my creativity being activated is absolutely valid. I stay having ideas. But that's also one thing about me as a leader that I'm very cognizant of is that I am a visionary, which can cause my team to squirrel along with me if I don't wrangle them in.
Right!
So like, yeah, especially because you also present very confident. So confident creativity, it's like if people aren't used to it, they can feel like, "Oh yeah!" Like they can get swept up in your ability to galvanize if there's not something to anchor them that's procedural.
So I completely understand that!
So that actually has been a problem of mine, and I have to be—I know when I'm squirreling because I have to tell my team, "Listen, I'm just throwing ideas at you. I'm not saying we have to execute all of these right now." So like I'm also having to constantly wrangle folks to be like, "Don't get swept up with me! You stay—you keep your feet on the ground as I'm floating with my ideas. You tell me what's possible because leave it up to me, we're doing 15 projects at once!"
Yeah!
Because I'm excited by all of them!
Yeah! But I actually had to switch that off, though. I actually had to switch that part of myself off in leadership where I've had to be the one doing my own discernment. That's been exhausting! I'm not an operator; I don't want to be, but I've had to be an operating CEO.
Yeah! And I would offer, if you don't mind me offering—
Listen, because I love your thoughts!
Yes! Yeah, I think you need a very—like, and I'll explain what I mean when I say this—you need a strong personality operator to balance you.
Yes!
So you need someone who's not afraid to tell you no.
Yes!
And who doesn't tell you no because they're triggered, who tells you no because they are calm and sturdy. And that's different, right? There's some people who show up strong, and it's because they are so rigid that they cannot be flexible or they cannot take in additional perspectives, right? There's some people who can give you a strong no, and it comes from a place of gentle strength.
Yeah!
And I think you need the gentle strength no as your counterpart because their no will come with really, really good understanding as to why, and you know it's thoughtful. And their no should be very human-centered and like thinking about people's workloads, people's capacity, people's bandwidth, what the organization can hold without being under duress.
So they need to give you thoughtful strong no's, and I think you would light up in it. You would be able to flourish creatively because you don't have to be having this meta processing at the same time of, "Well, if I get excited and creative out loud, then my team might start to jump, and I have to rein it back because leader Luvvie needs to make sure people aren't just getting swept in the current of my creative power."
Because they're hearing confidence and idea!
Like you, I think a counterpart—and I don't mean a co-founder; I mean a staff member—who can be that grounding balance.
Okay!
You know what? You actually just gave me the idea of switching up this format real quick. I actually think I'm going to ask you a series of questions, and you tell me how we solve it because you're actually spot on!
I love it!
You're actually spot on, Chloe, because yeah, that confidence that I have in myself, in my creativity, and my ideas, and my ability to execute—when people start working with me, I see them use my confidence as a reason to not tell me no, right?
And I'll have to say, remember, because one of my company's core values is radical transparency.
Yeah!
It's number one, and then two is we challenge each other every day. So to your point, I absolutely need a number two who is just as confident, who doesn't have to be prompted to say no.
Like, so you know the person you described of somebody who's really strong and rigid versus the person who's strong but flexible and can be moved? People actually assume I'm the strong and rigid, and I'm always like, "No, no, no! I'm looking for you to tell me no because it actually does help me settle in in the idea that we are moving on."
Because when you tell me no, I go, "That's a great point!"
So when people see those of us who are very strong personality types, confident, strong visionaries, I think it makes sometimes it makes people shrink in their own confidence.
Yeah!
Because they see us so confident. It's not that I can be less confident, but how can I encourage somebody to step in in their own leadership confidently?
I will first say my upcoming advice has nothing to do with your current team. I do not know them; I do not know how they operate. So I'm going to speak in the hypothetical of a team.
Yeah!
Right? So for you, you would need all players. So for these strategic roles, you need people who are better than you at it, correct?
So for the roles that need to make strategic decisions, they need to be better than you at that lane.
Yeah!
And very confident in their lane, but understanding they are one voice at the table, right?
Right!
So what I see with leaders like you—I've also experienced this—is when we had staff that maybe are more new or more green in their roles, then sometimes that immaturity in the role can also come with less confidence.
Yeah!
I actually think that's appropriate. If you don't have a level 10 competency, don't have level 10 confidence.
Okay!
I'm not upset at that!
Say that again!
Yeah! If you don't have a level 10 competency, do not try to have a level 10 confidence. That mismatch actually causes issues.
It really does!
So if you have a level three competency, come in with a level three confidence. I'm very pleased with that!
Right!
If I'm clear that you are at level three comp-wise, I can't expect you to come in confidently making strategic decisions because that pulls you out of your integrity, correct?
If you can fully realize how great our organization is, but you know you are not at the skill level to make these strategic decisions, please don't fake it till you make it. You will break something!
Right!
You just need someone who also is a level 10 competency operator with the matching level 10 confidence, right?
And for anyone listening, please don't get caught up in these numbers. I'm making this up as a framework to communicate. It's not some external system to go off of.
But I do think for you, outlining which of the roles need to be able to make decisions without Luvvie's input—what are those? And make meaningful decisions, not just decisions on like, "Is she going to sit in row one or row two, seat A or seat B?"
Right!
I don't mean those kinds of decisions, right? I mean decisions of, "Are we going to do this project or not?" You need folks who are at that level to have a level of competency that can, in the most nonviolent way I can say this, like spar with you.
Yes!
Right? And I think it's really hard.
Yeah!
Because you are so gifted, and I can already assume you've been the exception in so many rooms that you have grown accustomed to just being the exception and compensating for you not having other people around you to spar with.
So I think that while it has served you beautifully to get to this point, for you to be able to grow the entity, you have to have people who can spar with you.
Yeah!
And these are people who can hold your no and not take it personally, can have an idea they are so, so excited about, come to you with it, you will have a meaningful, intelligent, well-rounded discussion, and to come to a no, and they can comfortably accept the no.
Right!
Like if you all have come to that, you've brought what you've prepared to the table, and maybe they're going to get the yes someday, you're going to get the yes someday, and you all understand that's resilience in a team.
Resilience in a team is not just crisis management; it's what happens when we are working to get to a place of being competitive, being high-performing. There has to be resilience in that too because when you put high performers together and they have differing opinions on where to end up, resilience is what happens when you can bring those people together, have real good conversations, and people can decenter the ego to come to the best decision for the organization, which is a reflection of people's personhood.
It's not personal, but it is an external entity that has to be moved forward. If I could, yeah, put a bow on this, you just need some A players at the strategic level to help you have more of like a council running the business, not just it relying on Luvvie being talent operator, visionary, crisis manager.
Like there's too many roles for any one person to juggle.
You just hit the nail on the head about me having and needing people to spar with. A lot of people can't spar, and sparring is the exchanging of ideas and actually arguing about it, right? Where it's like, "No, I don't think that's—I think we should." I'm super comfortable doing that, but I think people shrink behind it, right?
Because I'm like the thing I'll ask you a series of questions because I need my brain to conceptualize what you're saying. So a lot of people can't deal with the sparring, but a lot of us who are the confident visionaries need that because it actually allows us to work through our ideas and allows you to poke holes in the idea we just brought you.
And the thing is, I don't attach my ego to my ideas because I realize even if my idea is bad, I'm still good!
Of course!
That's—I'm always—whenever I tell people, I'm like literally the first thing I tell people who start working with me is if you find anything that does not work, any systems that are broken, anything that is janky, just say it! I receive it with no offense. In fact, I love when somebody points out that's actually not great because great, that's something I can throw out; that's something I can fix!
So yeah, you were spot on in that I need somebody who I can spar with, go tit for tat with, and be like, "Bet! Yeah, my idea was trash; you are correct! You are correct! Let's move on to another thing."
And I would offer as well—and this is going to sound like a hot take at first—but I would offer that I think this culture of not wanting to have healthy argument is a descendant of both slavery and capitalism.
Shaking hands! Come on!
Like I think it is very much the—come on!—a new iteration of like plantation politics of, "Yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am," and the fear of being fired, the fear of disagreement leading to disrupted livelihood and what that could mean for your family.
It's also why I don't think capitalism and meritocracy are actually compatible because a real meritocracy requires argument, but people's egos and people's paychecks don't always love arguments.
Come in for people who have been so well rewarded and have been shown time and time again that you can be a professional troublemaker, you can be excellent, and you can present your ideas, and they've been rewarded for it. Like we can develop a confidence, but if there are people who haven't had that exposure, that experience, maybe the courage, maybe there's some woundedness from childhood trauma or things like that, they may be the most brilliant person walking, and we wouldn't know.
Right!
And I also just want to say for anyone listening, because Luvvie and I both present very confidently, I think we are confident people, but also I would just imagine like we have some crazy ideas too!
I know for a fact I have said some dumb shit before!
Okay!
And really believed it!
And really believed it! That was the other thing! And by the grace of God and the good people I have around me, I had people who were able to tell me, "Chloe, we love you, and no!"
And I look back and I'm like, "Thank God for more people, right? Like tell me—tell us no!"
Right!
Like you have to have a reason why; you can't just come saying no, you know? Like you have to be prepared to stand on that.
Yeah!
It has to be thoughtful!
Yeah!
Like you need to communicate to me why, but I love a thoughtful no, girl!
Like I love me a thoughtful no!
I love me a thoughtful no!
I can be confident and wrong, and I know that, but if I'm confident and I'm presenting that way and people are like, "Well, she's confident," that doesn't mean I'm right!
And the confidence isn't arrogance either!
It's—and I don't think it's unwarranted; it's the best information I have at that time!
Yeah!
And I'm excited; my values are aligned, so I am confidently trying to build something that is of good!
And so yeah, iron sharpens iron! Like please don't be afraid to stand on your skill set, right?
Oh yeah! A couple of things that you just said that I want to drill down on. So one, the capitalism-slavery no mentality, and then the two, the confidence of it all.
Let's talk about the confidence piece first. A lot of people reached out to me this year and was like, "You know, with how vulnerable you've been on the podcast, were you ever worried about like people seeing you different?"
No!
Because I'm so confident that I can still tell you I'm a mess and know I'm still amazing at what I do!
I can still own my mistakes and still show up in my fullness knowing that my mistakes were part of the journey to build me into even better!
So I think oftentimes because our confidence or self-assurance is so fragile, we think we're always one mistake from it all crumbling down.
Yeah!
And as leaders and people who are trying to build purpose-driven lives, it's a dangerous stance to have because if your confidence is so fragile that it's attached to every idea you give being good, everything going well, it is easy for all of it to start crumbling quick.
So of course, when we talk about that confidence around us as leaders and as people who work with us, those of us who are truly confident, why we're like, "Please tell us no!" We need the no so we can be confidently going into yeses with energy—full energy!
And I think that's really important. I don't think a lot of people believe it when we say, "I want you to tell me no."
I think sometimes, you know, it's not even personal why they don't believe it; it's from a string of times where they were told, "Yeah, say this," then they say it, and then it's a problem!
Yes!
Right? Or maybe not shown how to say no in a way that's meaningful.
Yeah!
And I think the other thing that really gripped me while you were speaking is that I think so often people are afraid to make mistakes because we've been lied to about what is required to make change or what is required to build something excellent.
Yeah!
And so people feel like if they don't show up perfect, that means all of these things about how they are either not capable, not going to make it, whatever it is—not realizing that so much of building things you care about does require trial and error.
People like to say trial and error and think that error is just like a joke option.
Yeah!
It's real! Trial and error sometimes!
And I think it's okay to make mistakes!
I like to tell that to people. There's a phrase in human-centered design, and it says, "Fail and fail fast."
Because failing and failing fast means you're learning very quickly how to do it well.
And I think we are, especially in the age of, you know, digital media—well, actually even in print media too; it just looks different now—but we are shown finished products. We are not shown the journeys.
And I think because we are shown finished and we are shown polished, it's very misleading, whether intentional or unintentional, as to what's required to get there.
And so I think people don't understand that there are a lot of—there are mistakes that happen, but the mistakes aren't wrong. It's not that somebody has done something wrong; that is a part of becoming excellent.
So I very much appreciate the people like you who are willing to be—I don't even think I say it's vulnerable anymore; I think I say holistic—like who are willing to show the entire pie chart, not just the 15% that looks sparkly.
And I think in us sharing the mistakes, we really show that we can learn out loud, lead out loud.
And to your point around slavery and capitalism and the remnants and the fingerprints and the charcoal that it left on us, understanding, especially Black and brown people, our economic outcomes are not great, so we're afraid of being—we're afraid of losing the jobs we—the wealth gap means that we feel less room to make the mistake.
So we're like, "Let me just be quiet through it."
Right!
The thing that we keep finding out over and over again is that our silence still hasn't protected us.
So even though we're still not saying the no's that we need to, even though we will say, "Well, you know what? They got it," we're still not getting the promotion; we're still not getting the job security.
So what was our silence for?
And I think it's one of those things that it's the best protective action that we have often had.
So even if it doesn't result in the thing that we were craving, I mean the fact that the silence wouldn't result in what we wanted, I think is just proof that it was never going to be possible.
Right!
It's not that if you had spoken up, maybe you would have gotten that raise; I don't know that you would have, right?
Maybe you would have been branded as aggressive.
I've definitely been branded as aggressive!
It's very funny because your girl is five, all of five-two, little, and you have such a baby face!
I do! I look 15!
I think I remember people outside of our organization would come to meet with me, and they would sit—I remember this so distinctly—somebody came in, sat in the meeting room, and just started playing on their phone.
And I'm looking at them, "Oh yeah!"
They thought I was the intern at one point!
I was like, "Sir, how's your day going?"
And they're like, "Oh, good! Do you know when Chloe's going to be here?"
I was like, "Yeah, I do actually! Nice to meet you!"
Nice to meet you!
Yeah!
So I'm all of five-two, been branded as aggressive, right? Because I would say things like, "Hey, I actually am not sure that will get us to our result."
Wow!
So even—I mean, when they're silent, where they're speaking up, the systems are still so laden with that kind of insistence on maintaining a power structure that, yes, is like keeping people of color subservient.
I also think it's keeping anybody who's not affluent and white subservient.
Like I think it is very widespread, but I think there is this culture of authority and affluence being paired as inextricable. Notice I did not say merit in that, right?
No!
I think it is structural power, and that's also why I started to deeply believe in ownership and what led me to entrepreneurship.
Because I realized even when I had made Forbes 30 Under 30, even when I had successfully built two eight-figure nonprofits, it was 2020, and I wanted to list on our website systemic racism as one of the reasons why we were seeing so much poverty, lack of economic mobility, lack of affordable access to childcare, etc.
And in my mind, that was not a controversial thing to do.
It's not!
In Memphis, Tennessee, we're 65% Black, and yet we have like a 45% child poverty rate. Like there were so many things happening. I was like, "Okay, we should name this, this, and this."
And I was told that we shouldn't because it might upset the funders.
And mind you, the work was being funded by three different entities.
And so it potentially could upset the funders.
So I was being told, even as brilliant and excellent in all of these accolades that I was given and received, etc., in all the autonomy I had to make decisions, I was still told, "Don't rock the boat."
Even though our supposed mission was supposed to be to spur economic mobility, create more educational opportunity, how could we do that if you won't even let me say what the problem is?
Wow!
So even if people do speak up, I think it's appropriate to be nervous, but when we have organizations like led by you or led by people who do get it, being able to create businesses that are psychologically safe, being able to create businesses where it is safe and it's genuinely encouraged and proven through action that it is encouraged—not just speak, not just fancy branding—proven through action that your merit is welcome here, I think then you will find organizations that are so competitive that it confuses everybody else.
They are so excellent that people can't understand how it could happen!
Right!
And so like I remember one of the best compliments I've ever gotten—it was a woman who was in her mid-60s; she had worked at the same organization for 40 years. She got moved to my department, and she said on a meeting one time it was the first time in her entire career she felt like she had a psychologically safe work environment.
And because of the space I was that I insisted on her having, she was able to improve the curriculum they were using to coach other organizations.
And it's such a small thing, but that improvement made a big deal to over a hundred different teachers.
And it's one of those things where she was just given the green light and shown with real action proof that it was okay to be excellent and that excellence wasn't going to offend my ego, which I also think is crazy!
Yeah!
Like sometimes people are so nervous about the leader's ego that they will sacrifice the good of the project!
All the time!
Which is why everybody's ego is leading their organizations and their companies.
That's why!
Honestly, that's why a lot of companies tank, because people are stepping into the CEO role because they're creative, they have an amazing idea, you do have a great mission.
And I'm talking to somebody who's listened to this—listen, you're an amazing visionary; you have incredible ideas. Creativity does not create strong companies!
Oh, correct!
Creativity is not what creates strong companies!
It is not what allows you to be successful!
To be quite honest, your creativity kicks it off, but unless you have systems in place and people in place to help you manage it, the creativity does not matter!
Because you can be the best photographer, but if can't nobody figure out how to book you, they're moving on to the next person!
And that's actually why I want to have you on, because the visionary pragmatist that I am is why I've been able to rebuild my million-dollar company—multi-million-dollar company—after it crumbled.
The part of me that has been very pragmatic has been what stood my company up.
Yeah!
So one thing Chloe is a genius at, I would say an expert at, is how to build sustainable and profitable companies.
I do!
So I wanted to bring somebody to the table, y'all, who actually knows how we can be successful at running our own companies and building wealth through it because she's 30 years old, who has built multiple multi-million companies.
She's on her third, and she's 30!
That is some wild behavior!
Chloe, how?
Thank you, girl!
And my girl is over here so passionate about this that you're offering something free to help entrepreneurs further deepen their companies' profitability.
Yeah!
So talk about that!
Entrepreneurs Excel!
Yeah! So I'm hosting a free training called Entrepreneurs Excel that teaches you the A to Z of what are the needle movers you need to create and deepen in order to build wildly profitable multi-six-figure businesses while having a work schedule that's 30 hours or less per week.
I say 30 hours or less per week because first of all, no one's actually productive 40 hours a week.
Second, with a work schedule that is 30 hours a week, the rest of the time is not for you to go hustle; it's not for you to go do more. It's for you to go be a real human!
It's for you to focus on your health, to focus on your relationships, to focus on anything that nourishes you and gives you joy.
That is how we resist hustle culture—by having rules, by having real structure, right?
Because we're people first; we're not business owners first!
Right!
Like you are yourself first, then you get to choose the roles you find sacred in life, and then you get to choose the causes you want to also advocate for in the training.
I am going to give my entrepreneurial playbook to building premium businesses—so businesses where you can charge a ton of money and have clients who are thrilled to pay you because it is worth it, right?
It's very much substance-rooted and generational wealth building.
I can give away a spoiler: part of it is just math!
If you want to charge $5 for what you do and you want to have a $10,000 a month, you're going to have to make thousands of sales.
If you want to charge $10,000 for what you do and you want a $10,000 a month, you need one sale!
If you have to serve one client versus thousands, I promise you the people serving one client are going to have much better health outcomes than the people who are trying to split themselves into a thousand different pieces to serve people because you were too scared to charge what you were worth!
So in Entrepreneurs Excel, we definitely go through my entrepreneurial playbook, but we also talk about why should you even consider owning a business, especially in this time?
And especially for all of you who are nervous about this, we will talk about why you should build a business when there's a war happening.
We will go there!
We will talk about why you should build a business when you might have family members who are not doing as financially well as you are right now.
That's a big one!
A lot of people have guilt around building the business around like, "Well, like now do I have to..."
Oh, there's a lot of things!
There's a lot of things attached to this entrepreneurship thing that is beyond just making money.
There's a lot!
It's deeply personal!
It's deeply personal!
And I think that's why people like working with me is that I am very clear that business is really personal.
It is not your identity, but it does affect you personally, right?
So like your well-being is first, and it does matter.
And it matters not just for the little h-mark reasons of like, "Oh, we love ourselves."
Your quality of life is really all you have, and so we have to have a good quality of life now.
And it's also like whatever your quality of being is, is what your creations will also embody.
So if you're giving drunk out, and you're giving traumatized, and you're giving triggered all the time, it's exactly what your creations will look like.
So girl, not you're dragging us like this!
Yes, let them know why!
Yeah! So the deeper your well-being is, the better the outcomes are for literally every aspect of your life.
So well-being to me is absolutely fundamental for just being who you are, but it also—for all my people who need to walk backwards into that messaging—it's the best business strategy I can give you!
So yeah, I'll give you the entrepreneurial playbook. We're also going to get into some real human stuff, and we're going to talk through some societal things.
I actually think it is an act of justice for Black and brown people to own their means of production.
Same!
It's the only way we will also have the opportunity to build generational wealth.
It's certainly not by hoping an employer sees our merit such that they will pay us our worth.
It is fundamental that if you do not own your means of production, you are subsidizing your company in some way.
Profit happens in companies when you generate an amount, they subtract a portion, and then give you whatever they deem the rest is, and you don't have control in that, right?
So for those of you who really want to build generational wealth, I believe if not the fastest way to get there, besides just being born wealthy, it is to take ownership of your means of production, which is how you work, when you work, what you charge, and what you keep.
Those things are very important!
So we will get into all of that in Entrepreneurs Excel.
So how do people sign up for it?
Y'all, this is free!
So if you listen to this, jump on this call!
Like honestly, these are the things that did not exist for us 10 years ago!
Yeah!
I've been running my own company for 15 years.
Yeah!
14, actually!
Actually, no, it's—yeah, 14 years!
And I had to figure out so much by accident when I fell flat on my face!
When I fell flat on my face!
And I still fall flat on my face last year, just so you know!
This is a continuous journey of growth and learning!
And I think for me, as I talked about my company's whatever last year, this year it was in hopes that others would take something away that would make their path easier.
And why it was also important for me to have Khloe on this podcast as kind of like the ultimate bonus for the season is that I heard so many people being like, "Oh my gosh, I was struggling too, and I still am!"
And I'm realizing more and more and more and more—even before we even talk about the money, let's talk about the systems that's creating this!
Let's talk about the ways in which we need to believe that we are worthy of a type of rest even in hustle!
Just so y'all know, Chloe is tapping in from Florence, Italy!
I told her she needs to let me know when she goes to the Gucci store because I might have some!
But like Chloe is living the life that she's preaching!
And I really know how much you all trust me and there are people who I trust in their knowledge because there's so much—so much—so much, and it pisses me off so bad!
There's so much fake knowledge out here!
There's so many coaches who are spewing, "I made $600,000 this month!" Meanwhile, show us the receipts!
They can't!
So Chloe is here as somebody who is living what she's preaching and teaching and purpose-driven profitability.
So yeah, Entrepreneurs Excel, I hope y'all tap in in because legit, I wish I would have had that type of a webinar or masterclass, heck, three years ago when I was trying to figure out why my team was crumbling!
Heck, you just told me why my team was crumbling!
You need somebody who was able to spar with you!
And I was like, "Oh, that was what the problem was!"
I just need that one person!
That would have saved my whole situation!
It would have saved my whole situation!
I think it's also one of those things where something that frustrates me, but I also have to release because so many people are just trying to figure it out, is that I do think there's so much misinformation.
And there are a lot of people who are offering the misinformation, but they don't realize it's misinformation because in their minds, they might actually be getting those sales results!
Yeah!
But if you were to look at the other metrics of their lives, their lives are crumbling!
Or they may be great at sales and marketing, but they're horrible at leadership, and their turnover internally is really high!
So I've had the privilege to be on the back—to see the back end of some of these businesses, some of the bigger businesses in the online coaching space, etc.
People doing million-dollar months, people having million-dollar years, and seeing the staff attrition, seeing how messy it is internally—you would be so surprised!
Because they are making that much money, but they might be miserable, or their organization's not sustainable because people keep coming in and out, so there's no institutional knowledge that keeps getting passed out.
So all that to say, I think first of all, I'll just give kudos to you, Luvvie, for building what you've built and your ability to learn and to dream and to do something about it.
It sounds so basic to say out loud, but that takes such depth of the human spirit to do and to go after.
And when you were earlier saying you're tenacious, I wanted to laugh because I'm like, "Of course you are!"
It's such a thing that radiates from you that's also not easily kept!
Like tenacity is something I think people might take for granted and say like, "Oh, well, you're just built like that."
You may be built like it; that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt!
Right!
It doesn't mean that it doesn't—you know, it doesn't mean that that doesn't come with its challenges!
So for you to have created what you've created, I hope you know is like merit on steroids!
I think it's really incredible!
And if there are times where you realize, "Okay, maybe I didn't have the team around me I needed," I hope you know that that wasn't a mistake!
Right!
Like it's not that you were going around messing up; you built this from scratch!
Of course, there are going to be things that you will see in hindsight!
And so yeah, maybe there are still things internally that you are going to evolve.
And something I heard you say earlier is that iteration is not necessarily what you light up around, but I do think that with your business, it will go through more iterations.
And I'm not saying they will be as painful as the business having to have just a complete refresh, but I hope you know those iterations aren't mistakes!
I so appreciate that!
That's important to hear!
You know, like in the midst of it, I was like, "Man, I am terrible at this! I am terrible at it!"
So it's so good to hear those affirmations!
And for me, you know, of course looking back and being like, "You know, I know for a fact that I am a much better leader than I ever was!"
And I have been getting better year by year!
Like so yeah, you know, knowing and understanding that the failures are always just stepping stones to the better version of you!
I sit with that, and I'm grateful for the expensive lesson because I'm like, "Listen, I look at this point that that million-dollar lesson—listen, heard you! Ain't gotta worry about me making that exact same mistake again!"
Because the mistakes might be different; they might still come, but they'll be different, you know?
And each mistake teaches me more because leadership is a series of humblings—of knowing when to say I'm sorry, knowing when to say I got to do different, or I have to pivot.
So yeah, no, I am grateful for that reflection!
I'm grateful for your work, and I'm so glad you're doing Entrepreneurs Excel!
And I'm glad to be bringing it to my audience!
How do they sign up for it?
Like how do they register?
All these links will be in the show notes, but is there an easy way for them to register that they listen to right now?
Yeah, they can go to your page or mine and just DM us the word "Excel," E-X-C-E-L, and it'll go from there.
And again, it's totally free!
I will be teaching it live; this is not a recorded session. It will be me!
So at the end, there will be some time for question and answer too, so if you have questions, please feel free to bring them!
I can't guarantee we'll get to everyone, but yeah, we'll get to as many as possible!
Tap in!
A lot of y'all remember I always say, like, "Let my helpers find me" as a prayer.
I actually honestly feel like that prayer continues to be answered because, Chloe, I definitely believe that you are an answered prayer in that way!
You know, let my helpers find me—people with passion and clarity of purpose who find me and then who say, "You know what? I see what you're doing; I do not take it for granted!"
So truly, truly, truly thank you for believing in me and my platform for saying, "You know what? I've been following you for a long time," and once we talked, I was like, "Oh yeah, no, no, no! I gotta let my audience know about you!"
Because the work that you're doing is going to help and change so many people's lives!
I really see that!
I'll end by saying I hope that everyone listening who has ever wanted to give Luvvie her flowers but been shy to please do it!
I'm a big believer in people getting their flowers while they can smell them, and I am not shy about this!
When I was prepping for my TED Talk, Luvvie was the one that I found and watched that had me feeling like, "Oh yeah!"
I don't know if I told you that your TED Talk made you the representation for me because I didn't see anybody who was like—I was really looking for a Black woman who could be both so soft and so intelligent at the same time.
And the TED Talks that were being shown to me just were very much not culturally aligned.
And so when I found yours, I felt so hopeful!
And like I could do it!
So I mean, I just want to thank you for, again, like your light!
And I said this in our first call—that your work really does matter!
I meant that personally too!
So if anybody's listening and they have not yet given Luvvie her flowers, please do it and do it often!
It does matter!
Oh my gosh, my heart is full!
My heart is so full!
Y'all, we have given y'all a lot!
Oh, and I have one more thing to tell y'all about!
Actually, I've talked about like three different assessments that I loved, and Chloe, I haven't even told you about this assessment that I've created!
So it's been years in the making—years in the making!
I have wanted to create this since my book came out, Professional Troublemaker came out!
I have finally done it, and it's finally ready!
It is the Professional Troublemaker quiz!
What type of a Professional Troublemaker are you?
I've wanted to do this for years because I also want people to know what superpower they have that they can wield in the room!
Are you a truth-teller? Do you use your voice like I do?
Are you a bridge-builder using collaboration and compromise?
Are you a hard helper using empathy and support?
Or are you a mind molder using data and intellect?
So when you step into the room, you knowing what type of Professional Troublemaker you are and also knowing what other troublemakers are in the room and what their powers are allows you to now play against each other!
And I think so often people think about just the truth-tellers as the Professional Troublemakers.
So if you're listening to this and you're like, "I don't always have the right words," that's okay!
Because maybe your power of collaboration is actually what you need to lead with!
Or maybe it's you being the supportive person who is like, "Let's talk about it after the meeting!"
Or maybe it's you bringing the data to the table and saying, "Hey, hey, I have the numbers that actually prove what the truth-teller just said!"
So if you want to know what type of Professional Troublemaker you are, you can go to TroublemakerQuiz.com.
It is brand new!
I'm excited to find out!
I know it's probably going to be a whole lot of truth-tellers following me, but listen, if you're not a truth-teller, whatever your superpower is, is still super valid!
Just as valid!
Okay?
The truth-tellers get the attention!
Listen, we still need you to show up in that room in your fullness!
So Chloe, I'm actually curious to see what type of Professional Troublemaker you are!
I will take it immediately!
And I just feel so grateful as well to know that for anyone who's also listening to this, I mean, take it with me!
How is it that we get someone who gets us to create a tool that can help us better understand ourselves?
I hope you don't take this for granted because how exceptional that we can live in a time where we can learn more about ourselves and get really thoughtful frameworks to help us deepen who we are!
So I'll take it as soon as we log off!
Yes, yes, yes!
And let people know in Entrepreneurs Excel which one you end up being!
Yeah, I will!
So y'all, take Entrepreneurs Excel!
Like if you are thinking about starting a business or you are already in business, it will be deeply helpful to you!
You know, find this information now because it's going to fill some gaps!
Just look in the notes or DM me or Chloe on Instagram with the word "Excel," and they'll send you a link to register!
It's free!
Show up!
Bring your notebook, okay?
She gonna be dropping all the gems!
Apply it!
And just know that whatever level of entrepreneurship you are in or whether you just started dreaming about it, we with you in this!
But now there are some dope Black girls who are making good money doing what God told them to do!
And isn't that a gift?
Okay, making good money!
Amen!
Thank you so much for being here, Chloe!
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