Transcription
I'll jump right in I want to say welcome
to Tom Campbell this is an amazing honor
to get to interview you today I really
enjoyed your series my big toe and I'm
going to jump in with a big question
which is this Tom in your opinion what
what is the meaning of
life H well since that's such a short
question I'll give you a very short
answer love you know the meaning of life
is that we have a mission each of us
here and that mission is to
to lower the entropy of our
Consciousness in more technical terms
but in general terms it's
to learn to become love it's about uh
caring about others it's about
compassion
and helping it's
about what can we
say
sharing
cooperating all of those things that are
positive interactions toward people
that's what it's about that's the
purpose to our life and we we generally
uh come in with a fair amount of
self-centeredness which is in the
opposite direction most all children are
born pretty much self-centered because
it's them and they're small and they're
vulnerable and their view of the world
is that it's a big and scary place and
uh they need to take care of number one
but as you mature sure and grow up you
should be growing out of that
self-centeredness you should learn that
you're not the only person that you
should be concerned about that you
should be aware of others be considerate
be kind be helpful and that's the
lessons we
learn we come to this reality in order
to learn that lesson now maybe be
jumping ahead a bit to say that what we
are is not this human body that's our
Avatar but what we are is consciousness
and we're here
to improve the quality of our
Consciousness and that means by making
decisions toward growth toward becoming
love and now I I can make that all kind
of Technical and scientific but a very
quick bottom line that's the answer to
your question and it's a serious thing
yes we're in a virtual reality that is
created by Consciousness and we are
pieces of Consciousness playing a human
Avatar that's kind of key Consciousness
is an information
system we can maybe talk more about that
later but that system then creates this
virtual reality for us to interact in
where there are real meaningful
interactions where everything you do
affects other people and what other
people do affects you so we're in this
highly Interactive
environment where ethical and moral and
caring versus non-caring choices are
made many times every day so this is a
rich Schoolhouse for budding
individuated units of Consciousness to
grow the quality of their Consciousness
that's what this reality is all about
and I know that sounds very far out it
sounds like it came out of a Sci-Fi
novel someplace
but if you take this this reasoning you
can derive logical consequences of the
reasoning and so far I have about
35 facts by facts I mean scientific
facts things that uh are not opinion
facts that are unknown they have no
answers so people don't know why they
are the way they are from various fields
and this particular philosophy that I'm
talking about
produces answers to those
paradoxes and if you did that to one or
two people would think it was lucky or
fortunate but if you do that to 35 or
40 you actually have to have something
that's correct at your basic route
otherwise you couldn't possibly solve
that many current problems in both
physics and philosophy and even
theology so
though it sounds far out it actually is
that big crazy idea that everybody's
been looking for that big paradigm shift
that the scientists have been looking
for ever since the Advent of quantum
physics they've been looking for another
way to view reality that would make
quantum physics make sense well this way
does that this is the Viewpoint that's
been missing if it didn't sound wild and
crazy then it couldn't possibly be true
because scientists have been looking for
it now for a century with absolutely no
success and it's because they are wedded
committed to a Viewpoint of materialism
and that Viewpoint cannot produce the
answers this Viewpoint that I have does
produce those answers I want to go back
to the schoolhouse idea for in just a
moment but I want to ask you a lady
question so I know you know Bob Monroe
very well and I read I can't remember
which of the three books this came up
but he said something to this effect in
this reality this simulation that you're
talking about it is a a kind of
darwinian struggle where there just
isn't enough resources we're struggling
with scarcity so you mentioned children
a moment ago you know I have two young
children and um I can I can put myself
in their shoes and understand why they'd
be self-interested you're hungry you're
thirsty or it's hot and cold it's you
know they're extremes they're things
that affect you from a materialistic
standpoint although I know what you're
saying about it not being materialist
Paradigm however that was his point that
we are foisted into this reality in
which there isn't enough to go around
which commands that we do certain things
right from an evolutionary standpoint we
have to fight to get resources or
cooperate whatever it is now I want to
talk to you about evil for just a
moment if what you're saying is
accurate that our highest calling is
love and is to reduce entropy as you
call it is my understanding correct when
I say that evil and our our willingness
to do terrible things to people
especially in the name of getting those
scarce resources is that meant to be the
ultimate kind of a challenge in this
Schoolhouse when faced with an
opportunity to do what we like uh to do
what thou Wilt if you if you will we
choose not to do that is that the
purpose of evil or how does evil fit
into this lesson evil fits into the
lesson
because all of the players here in this
game have free will so every everyone
all what is it the nine billion of us we
all have free will to make choices if
you make good choices low entropy
choices
then things will generally work out well
for you you and the people around you
because a good choice is a is a choice
that optimizes the caring and love you
make poor choices then that creates
Havoc it creates anger and upset and
insecurity and all those things that are
negative so because you have free will
you don't have to make a good choice you
can make a very poor choice you can
create chaos with your
choices and evil exists because there
are entities who have chosen to make
poor choices now it seems to them in the
short run that their poor choice is
actually a good one like they rob a bank
and now they're Millionaires and they
only had to work for maybe a two or
three days planning and maybe a half an
hour in the execution and now they're
millionaires already so in the short
term that seems like a really fine deal
but in the big
picture it is not in the big picture
you've created more havoc and more
dysfunction by making those poor choices
so in the bigger picture the long term
that is not a good thing to do that's a
high entropy thing rather than a low
entry thing that's a what do we say not
ethical thing instead of an ethical
thing so that's where the evil comes
from it just comes from the fact that we
are allowed to make poor choices and
there's a certain amount of of shortterm
power that you can gain through those
kinds of you know wrong choices you can
become alcapone you can run a whole
organization of nasty people you can
become wealthy so it looks like maybe
there's some advantages there but that's
only short term in the long term when
you make a poor choice you de
evolve your Consciousness so you go from
a you know from whatever level your
Consciousness is at as far as its
development you get decremented now
you're less than that so you de evolve
the quality of your Consciousness by
making those choices there's no
punishment in the sense that you know
we're going to take the alapon and the
Adolf Hitlers and they're going to have
great atonement and Punishment their
punishment is is that they're de
evolving and now their evolution is
further they're further behind they have
lost ground in the Consciousness
Evolution game which is the main game so
they're actually going back backwards as
far as their goal and that's really
their punishment if you like so that's
how evil works it just makes bad choices
it finds power in those bad choices and
it works in the short term and though it
may reap some rewards in the short term
the long term it's a big loser it's
loser in Consciousness quality and it's
a loser for degrading the reality that
they live in so that's where evil comes
from and I would not necessarily
agree that the the driving thing in our
in our evolution is scarcity I'm not
sure that's that's entirely true I think
that scarcity is there obviously but we
have the ability to pretty much get rid
of scarcity there's enough understanding
there's enough technology now there's
enough capability
that there shouldn't have to be a
scarcity problem or if it is it would be
a very mild one that you had all the
basics but not much more you're not
going to starve you're not going to
freeze but maybe you're not really very
well off either but there's no reason
that scarcity has to be the Big Driver
in our culture and I'm not sure that it
was before before there were much fewer
people there was lots of space in which
to live so I'm not so scar it was the
thing I think the problem is the low
quality of Consciousness human makes
choices and those choices are I want
more it's all about me the
self-centered the more I get the more I
want and the more power I have the more
control I have on the outside world to
make it the way I want it so when you
have that then that creates the scarcity
because those that have the power hoard
it and those that have no
power don't have much to live on that's
where the scarcity is so I think much of
the scarcity is created by our low
quality of Consciousness our dysfunction
in the world I think if we cooperated
and cared about each other we'd find
there was plenty of clean water and food
to go around and that we could do the
things that we're doing you know many
times more efficiently as far as clean
food clean water
we don't do that very efficiently today
it all matters on control Power and
force how much power do you have which
which equates generally how much money
do you have and to the to the money
flows the resources and scarcity is what
people without money have to deal with
but that's not because our world hands a
scarcity that's because our low quality
of Consciousness hands us scarcity for
the large majority of people that's a
little different I wouldn't blame that
on nature I think that's us that creates
that scarcity
problem okay so I'm going to go back to
the to the school house idea for just a
moment if I understand correctly from
your books there is an avatar that you
and I are right now this physical being
in this reality but it's an individuated
Consciousness that is inhabit this
Avatar okay my question is this when we
enter this this realm most of us don't
have any memories of past individual
Consciousness existing in other avatars
and maybe even other beings Like A din
or an alien or
whatever if if it is
indeed education um I'm gonna call it
for our soul just for the sake of
discussion for our our soul how come
that we we can't remember anything and
and it it seems to me we're not really
learning
if we can if we have a memory wipe every
time that we exist in another Avatar how
do we reconcile the educational
component with the idea that we can't
remember most of us can't remember past
lives yeah well the way to understand
this is to realize there's a big
difference let's say between acting kind
and being
kind okay there's a difference between
those two now
if if if you came with a memory and you
had been around this reincarnational
track enough times you'd understand what
the right answers were you'd realize
what you should
do and you would probably do that in
other words you would be acting your
intellect would be aware of this
information the intellect would try to
make the correct
choices and by doing that it would
perhaps be more civilizing because it
would be acting better but it wouldn't
grow much it couldn't evolve on that
because what matters is is how you are
inside not how you act so indeed the
best way to grow from the inside at your
core you know who who you are
authentically not who you are image that
authentic growth will grow more quickly
if it's presented with a problem it's
presented with issues you stuff happens
and it has to deal with it and how it
deals with it is a good reflection of
how grown it is or how grown it is
not the people come here to game the
system oh I know the right answer is
okay I'll be kind I'll help that little
old lady across the street because
that's what I should do but when
nobody's looking you're cheating and
stealing and robbing because nobody will
notice or you uh you're really not a
very nice person inside but you pretend
to be well there's no growth in that so
that's one that's one reason it's much
more functional to the growth it's a
much better
Schoolhouse if every day you take the
test the teacher teaches through the
week and at the end of the week you take
a test to see how much you actually know
how much of it you understood well in
this game it's not about intellectual
learning it's about what you are the
kind of human being you are what level
of quality have you you know have you
grown to and the test is you interact
with others in the world and they
interact with you and what sort of
choices do you make that then shows you
exactly who you are inside how you react
okay whether you're self-centered or
whether you're more other centered than
that so that's that's part of the reason
the other part of the reason that you
don't come with memory is that you go
around the circle a lot of times it's
hard to change yourself we're talking
about growing up isn't gaining knowledge
in your intellect it's changing who you
are getting rid of your fear getting rid
of your ego getting rid of your beliefs
and that is a much harder thing to do
you actually have to change who you are
see things differently change your
perspectives not from the intellect but
from the core of you well because that
takes a long time you're not expected to
do that in one lifetimes experience
there just too much it takes a lot of
lifetimes experience so now let's say
that you remembered everything and let's
say you've been around this cycle a
thousand times then you will have had
maybe a thousand husbands and wives
maybe 500 of each you would have 10,000
children you would have you know and
what would it be like to have all that
memory it would be overwhelming what
could you do with that it isn't
functional so the way to to grow is to
take the test how grown are you well
here's here's your test life happens
something happens to you somebody says
something that's rude to you and what do
you do you get angry you punch him or
maybe think gee I wonder what's wrong
with that person I wonder why I wonder
why they're so upset I should find out
what the problem is and maybe I could
solve it you see that would be a
different way but it comes down to the
this ethic that you can't Plame other
people for your choices you have to
accept responsibility for your choice so
if you choose to be angry you have to
accept that as your choice you're angry
for a reason has to do with your fear
your ego your
beliefs you have to accept that if you
say oh George makes me angry you know
Sally makes me angry that's not true
you're trying to blame somebody else for
your own
issues so it's a difficult thing to do
you need to
grow inside From the Inside Out not from
the outside in so having a bunch of
knowledge and taking it in is like from
the outside side in that doesn't grow
you just makes you able to more quickly
and more able polish up your image to be
what you think it ought to be which has
nothing to do with who you really are
when you look under the
hood you know Jin Jen Roberts talks
about this in the Seth material this
idea of which he calls aspect
Consciousness almost this idea that you
who you really are is like a tree and
this life that you're living is a leaf
and so you know when you're talking
about Lessons Learned things like that
does does that thinking Dov till with
yours were they're whatever you are if
this if this is an avatar that you and I
are in in this particular reality is it
part of some larger let's say overs Soul
or or soul is that is that what you're
suggesting that exists outside of this
that um does rack up the lessons and it
is what grows over time is that what
we're talking about here yeah yeah we're
doing that and it's actually there's two
levels to it there is the thing I call
the individuated unit of Consciousness
and that is a piece of the larger
Consciousness system okay the larger
conscious system is just what's
fundamental that is the fundamental
thing is
consciousness and you're a piece of that
larger Consciousness system just a
subset if you're into computers I'd say
you were a virtual machine inside the
larger machine that's Consciousness
Consciousness again being an information
system
so that that's one roll up you're a
piece of the larger thing the larger
thing is just the source you could call
it all that is I think is what Seth
called
it but now when
you have an experience as a human when
you're going to play a human Avatar then
you that individuate unit of
Consciousness partitions off a pie a
piece of itself that I call the free
Free Will awareness unit and that Free
Will awareness unit is what actually
logs on to the data stream that defines
that individual now that they are going
to make all the choices for you see we
Consciousness are the player the Avatar
only does those things that we tell it
to do you know that's the way it is in
any virtual reality your Elf doesn't do
things on its own it only does what the
player tells it to do so we're the
player we're a piece of Consciousness
the elf is is uh you know Tom Campbell's
body here and Michael's body so we tell
that body what to do we make all the
choices for the Avatar all right now
that comes from a free will awareness
unit which is a subset a partitioned off
part of this individuated unit of
Consciousness when that elf dies or that
human dies then that partition comes
down and all that information of that
lifetime just becomes part of that
individuated unit of Consciousness so if
you've had a thousand of these
incarnations then that individuated unit
of Consciousness has the collective of
all thousand of those lifetimes and it
does that because there's
often more understanding if you can look
for patterns and series and and things
you know if you look at a 100 lifetimes
and you see a pattern of Anger
Management problems then you know that's
something you have to work on it wasn't
just a oneoff for that one lifetime it
was something that's deeper than that
that you're going to have to work on so
then you try to have incarnations that
help you work on that aspect so there's
one roll up which is individuated unit
of consciousness of multiple lifetimes
that that individuated unit of
Consciousness has experienced making the
choices for an avatar and then there's
another roll up of that individuated of
Consciousness being a subset a piece of
again you could say a partitioned off
piece of which is all a virtual machine
is a partitioned off piece of the larger
Consciousness system so the old saw
about we're all one is really true we're
all part of one thing and it's also true
that our part has its own free will and
can make choices that's how it learns so
that's kind of the overall spectrum of
how that works so there's two rollups
there not just not just one but the
parent or the the source is is just
Consciousness and U
Consciousness doesn't have a source
Consciousness is the source okay now
that troubles some people that
everything has to have a source but
that's not the
case some things are just beyond our
ability to understand and though we try
we just don't have what it takes to
understand them in Consciousness the
larger conscious system is one of those
things and the reason that we can
understand it is that we are it we can't
get outside of ourselves to look at
Consciousness from some other
perspective from the outside we're
inside it so I in my books I make an
analogy of that to an intestinal
bacterium just doesn't know anything
about you know refrigerators and uh and
tractors and Farms all it knows is that
food comes out of this pipe and it
decomposes the food and it's no way for
it to understand that bigger process of
sunshine and plant growth it just can't
do that it doesn't have what it takes it
it can't get outside to to look at that
well that's the way we are with
Consciousness so there is no infinite
regress of well what caused that and
well what caused that cause and so on
you have to get to a point where you
just say we we can't know it's not we
don't know it's not we're ignorant and
haven't learned yet it's that we can't
know that's outside of of of the reality
in which we live thank
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