Transcription
How could a young Chinese immigrant with only $50 in his pocket, hardly able to speak English, become a world-renowned laser eye surgeon? What led this scientific-minded atheist to believe in a Creator?
Our guest today, Dr. Ming Wang, earned his MD at Harvard and his PhD in laser physics from MIT. He's written 100 scientific papers, 10 textbooks, and played the Chinese violin alongside Dolly Parton. Quite obviously, he has a story that needs to be heard.
Dr. Wang, thanks so much for joining me. This is really a treat.
Thank you, Sean, for having me on your show.
Well, let's jump right into your story, which is absolutely captivating. You were born in China in 1960, and the Cultural Revolution began in 1966 when you were only 6 years old. Explain to our audience what happened and how that affected you and your family.
Yes, thank you. In 1966, the government in China decided the best way to keep people ignorant was to affect the next generation's educational process. People with knowledge and education are a threat to dictatorship. So, they started a Cultural Revolution, which lasted for 10 years, from 1966 to 1976. During that time, they shut down all universities and colleges in all of China and sent every single high school graduate to some of the poorest parts of the country for a lifetime of poverty and hard labor. They would never be able to come back.
Over the 10 years of the Cultural Revolution, by shutting down all universities and colleges in the entire country, they sent away basically 20 million young people to labor camps.
Now, maybe tell us a little about where you lived and your family. Did you have brothers and sisters at the time? What did your dad and mom do for a profession? Tell us about that, if you will.
I was born in a city south of Shanghai called Hjo, into a family of medical professionals. My father is an internist, a medical doctor, and my mother is a teacher in the medical school. I have a younger brother. Actually, all of them were depicted in this film, "Sight." My father and mother worked very hard because we didn't have very much; we were very poor. The combined salaries of my parents every month were only $30.
Wow.
So, we had to live on that. I remember, you know, people ask me sometimes, "Why do you work so hard? What drives you?" My best answer is that I was brought up that way. I was imprinted with the will to work hard.
As a three-year-old kid, I remember we could only afford eight watts of electricity every month. Eight watts is a quarter of a light bulb—that's all the electricity we could afford as a family. We had no bathroom, no kitchen, no heater, no air conditioning, and no telephone.
What happened was my dad wanted to hang up the eight-watt little light bulb very high on the ceiling so the whole room could be illuminated a little bit. We all lived in one room, but he couldn't study if the light was too high. Even if the room was illuminated, if the light bulb was too low, he could read books, but the whole room would be too dark.
So, he found a solution. He hung up the eight-watt light bulb from the ceiling so the whole room could be illuminated, and he put two chairs on top of each other. He climbed up there, sat on the top chair—it was summer, very hot, and he was bare-chested in his shorts, holding a medical book in his hand. He put the eight-watt light right in front of that book so he could illuminate the room and also enable him to study close enough to his book.
As a three-year-old, I remember I was playing and looking up, saw that, and saw hundreds of little pearls of sweat on his back because it was so hot—there was no air conditioning.
So, that mental impression, that imprinting, is what brought me to be someone who always wants to do my best in whatever I do. In fact, I'm very grateful to my parents, so I dedicate the film "Sight" to them.
That's amazing. Now, we're going to get to this film. I want my viewers to hear all about it and go see it. It comes out in May. But were you, at that time, an outlier among your friends, or was this a common experience for your peers and most people of that time, dealing with that level of poverty and working hard and struggling to get by?
It's very typical. Many people throughout the United States who have seen this film resonate with this part of their lives as well. For first-generation immigrants, it's very typical.
The thing is, you know, who appreciates sight the most are those who used to be blind. Those who appreciate freedom the most are those who used to not have freedom. So, I appreciate so much what we have in America—the freedom to worship, the freedom to seek happiness. That's why this film reminds us how blessed we are to live in this country.
Talk a little about your family in terms of religious beliefs. Obviously, in China, the state religion is and was atheism. Was that your belief? Did there come a point where you said, "I'm an atheist," or was it just what you assumed about the world because your parents and everybody around you believed?
Yes, 95% of people in China were and are still atheists today. Out of the 5%, I think probably a few percent—maybe two or three percent—are Christians, and the rest are various different Buddhists. So, most people are atheists, and so was I—my parents and my brother.
I was brought up in an atheist family, but it was a family that respected tradition, knowledge, and scholarship. Despite the fact that during the Cultural Revolution we were not allowed to read anything other than government-assigned books, my father always had little books of ancient Chinese poets and different books hidden on the shelves behind official government-read books. He read these to me, so very early on, he instilled in me a curiosity towards the world beyond China and beyond the time we live, but also a broader view about not just Eastern viewpoints but also Western and worldviews.
So, the Cultural Revolution hit when you were from 6 to 16 years old. How did you avoid getting sent to a labor camp, and how did you get an education?
That was a good question. At age 14, in 1974, I finished my junior high. My parents always insisted and encouraged me to study hard, so I studied really hard. I was a straight-A student and looking forward to attending high school. Eventually, I wanted to become a doctor.
I always wanted to be a doctor as a kid. My dad and mom got me these little medical instruments—broken instruments that the university threw away—and I always played little doctor for my childhood friends, you know, repairing their broken skin or things like that.
So, I wanted to be a doctor, but when I finished my junior high at age 14 in 1974, a very difficult situation emerged. If I went on to high school, I would be deported, just like 20 million others, for life into a lifetime of poverty and hard labor. My parents wanted to avoid that for me, so with pain and agony, they actually had to stop me from going to further education into high school. Therefore, they basically shut down any dream of me becoming a doctor.
So, my education was abruptly cut off after my junior high graduation at age 14. The government still wanted to deport me unless I could find a way to find a job in the cities. That's why I started learning a musical instrument called the erhu, a two-string instrument, and learning dancing. Because if you could play a musical instrument and learn dance, you could get into a government song and dance troupe and therefore be allowed to stay in the cities and avoid being sent to a labor camp.
Very interesting. In China, in the early to mid-1970s, there was this suddenly found interest in music and dancing by tens of thousands of youngsters and teenagers throughout China, all for the sake of survival rather than the love of music and dance. I was one of them.
Then the government discovered we were interested in music and learning dancing with an ulterior motive—not for music and dancing, but to avoid being sent away to labor camps. So, they actually stopped everybody's recruitment into the song and dance troupe in the cities. My dream of avoiding being sent away to a labor camp got dashed, and I was going to be sent away to a labor camp.
Then my parents smuggled me into the medical school they were teaching at, so I became an illegal medical student, studying medicine illegally without any prospect of becoming a doctor ever. I asked my father, "Why should I study?" He said, "Well, knowledge will always be useful." They actually bribed those medical school professors, saying, "Don't look over there; my son is sitting there. He's not a student, but he's listening." So, all these professors were doing a favor to my parents by allowing me to illegally sit through those medical school classes.
Okay, so then the revolution ended in '76, but you came to the States six years later in '82. What happened in '76, and then tell us how you ended up coming to the States.
In 1976, the Cultural Revolution ended after 10 years, from '66 to '76. China realized what a tragic mistake it had made by shutting down all universities and colleges for 10 years and practically destroying the future of a whole generation of young people. They stopped the Cultural Revolution and reopened all the colleges.
There was a chance to take the SAT equivalent national college entrance exam, but I only had a junior high education. I had basically dropped out of school three years prior. For the last three years, I had not been studying; I was playing a musical instrument, learning dancing, and also trying to study medicine illegally.
So, my parents said, "Well, you need to go back to school." I said, "Go back to what?" They said, "No." I said, "10th?" They said, "No." I said, "11th?" They said, "No." I said, "12th?" They said, "Yes."
Yes, you may want me to jump back to school, but jump three years ahead overnight? They said, "Yes." I said, "What's the chance of getting into college, even if I somehow magically become a 12th grader?" They said, "About 1%," because there were so many students from the last 10 years—a backlog—all coming back to the cities applying for college.
While they finished high school in the preceding 10 years, they were not allowed to apply for college because all colleges were shut down for 10 years throughout China. So, I said to my parents, "You want me to jump three years overnight and somehow magically become a 12th grader, having never studied 10th, 11th, and 12th, and somehow participate in the college entrance exam, competing against other 12th graders for their 1% chance?" They said, "Correct."
I said, "You guys are crazy." My mom said, "We're not crazy." She said, "How long did the government shut down colleges?" I said, "10 years." She said, "Okay, now they reopen all the colleges. That's wonderful, but what is to prevent them from shutting down again next year for another 10 years?"
You see, people who didn't have freedom, when freedom came—even briefly—they appreciate it so much. So, I had to do the impossible: jump three years ahead and compete against other 12th graders for the college entrance exam. But my mom and dad helped me. They borrowed some old exams from 10 years prior and hand-copied them onto little pieces of paper. We couldn't afford zero, and so they drove me every night with little pieces of paper containing those old exam questions.
They made me study like 10 to 15 hours a day.
Wow.
So, yeah, it was really hard, but I had to do it because I did not want to return to the darkness of not having a future.
And you came to get your MD. Were you already enrolled? Did you just show up and apply? How did you get into Harvard?
I actually first went to the University of Maryland when I first came. I could not get into medical school right away. I studied a subject that many American students want to study, which is classical physics, quantum mechanics, and laser physics. That's how I got into school. I had to support myself and work at the same time when I was in graduate school.
So, I got a PhD degree in laser physics from Maryland and then finished my postdoc at MIT. That was in 1987 when I was 26 years old. Then I thought, "Well, now I have the technical background. This is a free country, and since I always wanted to become a doctor ever since I was a kid, now it's the time to do it."
So, I applied for medical school. I was discriminated against by a professor at Johns Hopkins who thought, "You're Chinese; we don't know how good you are." It's hard getting into medical school even for American-born kids, and you're from China; you don't have any chance. But that actually inspired me to work even harder.
Well, I fought once after the Cultural Revolution for myself to have freedom. Now I could fight again to get into medical school, but also not just for myself, but for anybody who has been discriminated against. So, I worked even harder and got into both Johns Hopkins and Harvard. Partly because of this professor, I went to Harvard.
So, in 1987, I enrolled in Harvard and MIT, joining the MD program to get my second doctorate degree—this time in medicine.
Was that professor who treated you that way because you were from China an exception in your experience, or have there been a few people that have treated you differently and discriminated against you because of your race? Is that a common experience since you've come to the States?
I would say yes, there are actually a few people, including one professor in the PhD program when I was studying. However, my overall experience of coming to America has been extremely positive, and I'm very grateful because almost everybody else, except these few folks, really welcomed me with open arms.
I mean, imagine—I couldn't speak English, I did not know the culture or language, I had no social background, and I had no money. But it is America, the country that gave me the opportunity to work hard and realize my dream.
I think people from around the world, like myself—many immigrants and refugees—put their lives on the line sometimes so they can come here. This is because of the bedrock of this country, which is freedom guaranteed by the Constitution.
But later on, I found Christ in my life, and the other cornerstone of America is the Bible.
Okay, so let's talk about that. You describe yourself as a scientific-minded atheist. When did you start to shift, or when did those questions come? Were you in China? Were you in the States? Tell us kind of those first moments, if you will, and then let's probe into the story.
I actually, you know, was not born as a Christian. I was born as an atheist, and I came to America as an atheist, just like the Chinese student in the movie "God's Not Dead," written by our mutual friend Dr. Rice Brooks. Just like that student, that student's life is inspired by my life story in "God's Not Dead."
So, I came to this country. I was not interested in anything else except science because I finally had the opportunity to study science. I was not going to be distracted by anything else.
But then, after the PhD program and getting my second doctorate degree in MD at Harvard, it was in the study of medicine—in fact, in the study of the human eye—that the seed of my eventual belief began. I was studying the human eye because I wanted to become a laser eye surgeon. Since I had the laser background PhD, if I studied MD and medicine, particularly the eye, I could be a very unique laser eye surgeon who knows both medicine and laser technology, which are very few in the world who have both degrees among laser eye surgeons.
So, I was studying this human eye, and something became clearer and clearer to me. It's interesting that in our human brain, all of us, in each of our heads, half of the brain neurons are involved in vision. So, vision is disproportionately important for human survival than almost any other senses—touching, speaking, hearing.
Because so many neurons are involved in the vision signal capturing, processing, and interpretation, it quickly became clear to me, with my scientific background, that the atheist worldview would hold that it is just impossible.
How could all these trillions of cells combine themselves to form a functional eye in a short span of 9 to 10 months during pregnancy? So, there are just so many things that can go wrong that most of us should be born blind, but yet most of us are born with sight; we can see.
So, I started asking a professor these questions. I said, "How could all these complicated eye parts, neurons, and photo receptors form in such a short period of time, which is such near perfection and out of randomness?"
I kept on pestering him with these questions, and basically, my atheist worldview was in crisis. I could not answer a basic important question like the human eye structure.
Finally, he took me out for lunch and said, "Ming, what's across the street?" I said, "That's a car." He said, "What's the difference between a car and a human eye?" I said, "The human eye is a lot more complicated." He said, "Okay, can you imagine a random piece of metal on the street assembling itself into a car?" I said, "No way."
Then he leaned over and said, "How about the human eye?"
Right there, he basically opened a window in my life, making me realize that the reason the human eye is so complicated but yet can form nearly perfectly every time is that it is not formed out of randomness, as the atheist worldview would hold, but it was formed with a specific purpose, and that purpose is vision.
So, there's a designer—a Creator—behind it all. Of course, going from that realization of a Creator to eventually becoming a Christian, I realized that the Creator has a name: Jesus Christ. Christ died for our sins on the cross.
That’s a long process, which is described in my autobiography book, which I have a copy of called "From Darkness to Sight." It's called "From Darkness to Sight" because it's not just those blind orphan children that our foundation has been able to help over the decades—their remarkable journey from darkness to sight—but also how these kids, their courage, have also inspired me to come from my own darkness to light spiritually.
That's a fascinating title, especially because you're an eye surgeon—from literal darkness to physically seeing, but spiritual darkness to spiritual sight. You're obviously playing on that.
Let me take a couple of steps back on your story. You won't be able to go into the depth, obviously, in your book, and I hope folks will pick that up. But it was Darwin who famously said the design in the eye made him shudder. Later thinkers like Dawkins kind of point towards these simpler eyes that exist in other organisms all the way up towards the most complex human eye.
What convinces you that there couldn't be kind of a step-by-step incremental naturalistic explanation for the eye and that some kind of Creator is required?
Great question. The fact that Darwin himself, his theory of evolution—the Achilles' tendon of his theory, the weakest point—is the human eye. He readily admitted in his book that the human eye is so complicated that this evolutionary viewpoint just doesn't hold in the context of the human eye.
Particularly how the eye could form—the fact that I discovered practically the same thing as Darwin did, 200 years later in modern time when I was studying the human eye, shows that at the end of the day, as Dr. Rice Brooks has always been advocating with his "God's Not Dead" lecture tours throughout the United States and the world, and many of those lecture tours that I was fortunate to be involved in, he invited me to talk about the scientific aspect.
We played tag team: I talked about more science, and he talked about more scripture and spiritual matters. His premise is to be open-minded and go to where the truth leads you. I think that's the ultimate goal—we want the truth, right?
The fact that Darwin, who was an atheist and who developed this wonderful, very impactful theory about human understanding of the world, the evolution 200 years ago, and 200 years later, I discovered the same conundrum—the same problem: the human eye is the weakest point of this evolutionary theory. The complexity of the human eye makes evolutionary formation of such a complicated structure impossible.
It shows that there's some truth to it. Both he and I discovered the same thing: there's a fundamental weak point in evolutionary theory.
Now, as we may get into more discussion, I am a common ground seeker, Sean. I love common ground. I love bringing people together. I love to listen on both sides, and I love to find the element of truth that is somehow embedded in people's viewpoints. That truth is the ultimate truth we are all seeking.
Last night, I was with 400 kids on Zoom, and the question asked was, "Dr. Wang, do you believe in evolution and creation?" My answer was, "You'll be surprised; I actually believe in both."
I believe that creation addresses different questions. Creation has to do with the genesis of life—the genesis of the human parts, in this case, the eye. Evolution has to do with the change and adaptation of that evolutionary-created structure—how it evolves and adapts to the environment.
Because there's undeniable evidence of change—undeniable evidence of adaptation of all species across the globe over time. It is true, and you cannot oversell that. But yet, the fundamental problem of evolutionary theory is that it could not explain the complexity of structure and the complexity of life—how it could come in such a specific form with all the other possibilities.
It is impossible that a random theory or random adaptation will form a structure as complicated as the human eye. So, I believe creation is true because it addresses the genesis of life, and evolution is true because it addresses the change and adaptation of life forms after it was created.
That's really helpful and raises a ton of questions that I have for you, but we're going to, in a minute, come to why you went from believing there's a Creator to the Christian Creator. But first, I have to ask you—you're trained, obviously remarkably, at one of the top universities in China. You got your MD from Harvard, you got your PhD in laser physics, so clearly you're trained in science, and yet you have a religious faith.
So, you obviously don't buy the idea that science and faith are in conflict. Talk about what you think is the relationship between the two of them.
Great question, Sean. I appreciate the question. Last night, again, I was in front of 400-some young generation students talking about a purpose-driven life. The question was asked, "Dr. Wang, isn't it true that in universities among intellectuals, the majority today are not believers?"
So, how do you explain that? My answer to the student was, "Well, it is true that in universities, the majority of scientists today are not Christians. It's true. So, one might conclude then that science and faith are mutually exclusive—that they cannot be combined and don't have common ground. If you study science, by necessity, you will hold an atheist worldview."
But I said, "However, what I've learned over my lifetime, which is depicted in my autobiography book 'From Darkness to Sight,' which is now turned into the movie 'Sight,' is that the more science I study over decades—I went to school for 31 years to get both doctorate degrees, you know, PhD in laser physics and MD—so, in so far as I would say I probably have achieved the most amount of knowledge and study that humankind could have.
But the interesting thing is, as I study more advanced science, I find more, not less, evidence that points to the existence of a Creator. Because the more mystery that comes through, the less explainable by random collisions by the atheist belief.
So, I told that student last night, "Yes, there are many scientists who are not believers, but if you look at the history of human scientific pursuit, many of the top scientists were believers. The proportion of scientists who believe in a Creator actually increases if you go to the highest tier of scientific advancement and expertise."
So, I encourage the student to study more science, study harder, because you're going to discover more advancement. The greater you get into the top tier of scientists, the more common ground—not less—between science and faith you will find.
So, you had this conversation with a professor at lunch, and he opens your eyes up to saying, "Oh my goodness, there's really design in the eye." Of course, that's consistent with Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, and some understandings of Hinduism.
What were the steps that started to lead you to identify that Creator as found within Christianity and Jesus being that Creator in particular?
Great question. In my autobiography "From Darkness to Sight," which is now made into the movie "Sight," I talk about how I was impacted by many other physicians—a group of physicians who are dedicated Christians, members of the American Medical Dental Society.
In particular, there was a professor who I respected a lot, you know, professionally. Then, actually, I was influenced by a young lady who was a dedicated Christian who was also studying to be an ophthalmologist. She brought me to this group of physicians who are Christians.
First of all, I respected these physicians because of their professional achievements, but at the same time, I listened and attended meetings and saw how faith guided their lives. I realized that to be an ultimate physician is to recognize that our science is just a tool; you need a bigger purpose for life.
They told me about Jesus Christ, told me about the resurrection, told me about God. Yes, there's a Creator, but then I believed there's a Creator, but the Creator has a name. Because Jesus died for our sins, as a human being, because He loves us, and then three days later, He rose from the dead, proving that He can conquer death.
So, I realized that as a human being, we have the opportunity for eternity if we follow Jesus Christ. We have the opportunity to serve—in this case, all these physicians serving not just with medical knowledge but also with a heart to help others.
It is the influence of these physician Christians and their dedication, using science as a necessary tool, that made me realize that science is necessary, but it's not sufficient to have a purpose-driven life. The sufficient condition has to come from faith in a Creator, but also more specifically in Jesus Christ.
The resurrection proved God has a name in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. The resurrection proves that He is the ultimate inspiration for us to have not just mastered the science and skills, but also to realize there's a higher purpose for what we're going to use the tools for.
For different people, they have different purposes that God wants us for. For me, it's to use my long, hard-earned skills—31 years of schooling—to help those who need the most help, which are blind orphan children.
So, it's awesome to hear about the number of other scientists and doctors who were living out their faith, and they shared this with you. Did you need to say, "All right, I trust you guys; this story is great, but I'm going to probe into the evidence myself"? I mean, you're such a scientific-minded person. Were you reading the evidence for the resurrection? Were you studying the reliability of the Bible? Or did the story just ring so true to you that you knew it was true and didn't need that evidence, at least initially?
I always want evidence as a scientist. That's sort of ingrained in me because my parents were scientists. Yes, I did look into the resurrection and, in terms of did it happen, it was unquestionably true because it was proven by different people at different times through different means.
From a scientific standpoint, if a fact has been proven by different people who are not related at different times and different ways, that is a very scientific way of looking at whether something is really true or not.
Also, the fact that one can—I think the difference between having belief in a Creator and the Creator having a name in Jesus Christ is that there's a personal relationship I can develop with the Creator who guides me through my life, doing different things, especially in fact, when I got stuck or in difficulty.
So, my second evidence that convinced me that God has a name in Jesus Christ is that I started my life as a Christian, believing in Him, but yet I still continued looking for evidence beyond the resurrection.
One particular example is I started doing research trying to figure out how I could help people with chemical injuries that result in blindness in their eyes due to scarring. I found that the only person who does not scar is an unborn child.
However, how can you do research on the fetus without hurting a baby? Yet I do want to do research; I do want to help these kids and the blind orphan children and other people who have gone blind due to injury and trauma and eye scarring.
So, I submitted to God. I said, "Well, God, is there an answer to this question? If you're there, if you're real, give me some idea." I got stuck now between the conflict of science and faith.
If it were up to the atheist scientists, they would do the stem cell research, fetal research—no problem. But if it were up to Christians, we don't want to do stem cell fetal research because life is sacred, as the Bible said.
But I realized that the second viewpoint has a problem too because without research, our quality of life cannot be improved. Creating new medical treatments is critically important because the top four or five causes of human mortality today are cancer, stroke, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's disease, and diabetes. All of them can eventually be conquered by stem cell research.
So, I believe these two camps are too polarized. The atheists and scientists—there's a truth that both sides should learn from each other. You know, atheists should learn about Christian faith, and Christians should learn about science.
It does not make sense to me. A pastor, one time, I went to a church visiting, and a pastor on Sunday said, "Oh, I got a headache, but I don't believe in medicine. I'm going to have everybody just pray for me." But the next day, Monday morning at 8 o'clock, he picks up the phone and calls the doctor.
You know, there's a lack of sincerity there, and I think we need to be truthful and authentic. I feel science is an indispensable part of our lives. Our lives are transformed by science, such as cell phones, which have transformed the way we live.
So, I submitted my conundrum—the dilemma—to God and said, "God, I want to do research on fetal tissue, but at the same time, I want to help patients restore their eyesight, but I don't want to hurt the baby."
In the book, I talk about interacting with a doctor who is a scientist and also a Christian. He just said, "You know, Ming, God said in James 1:4, 'Perseverance, keep it on, don't give up, don't give up.'"
So, I was studying with some other scientists at the time—one notably Dr. Chen and several others—and we just kept probing this question. I kept praying, and it's one of those prayers that I think God somehow instilled in my mind a little idea that, "Well, instead of touching any part of the baby, since the unborn child can heal without scars, and after birth, we heal with scars, something traumatic happens at the time of birth."
One possibility is the fact we lose the amniotic membrane—the envelope that surrounds each of us before birth. So, is it possible that this amniotic membrane that surrounds each of us before birth is what actually conveys the ability to heal without scars?
So, you see, that's a God-inspired idea, and that's a result of the praying. Not only that God does exist, but also that God does care to develop a personal relationship with each of us.
Because in that case, it was my personal praying to Him and personally asking for guidance. So, I actually started doing research on the placenta. I got lots of placentas donated to me by mothers after giving birth to children. The placentas are discarded anyway, so nobody has any problem using those amniotic membranes.
But it was connected to the baby—that's the magic part of it. Before birth, you know, it's like a blanket surrounding the baby. So, I got these placentas brought to the laboratory and teased out a little thin amniotic membrane out of the placenta that used to surround all of us before birth.
I was doing research on this amniotic membrane to see if it does reduce scars and regenerate the eye, and it does.
So, I eventually developed amniotic membrane contact lenses. It's interesting that when amniotic membrane contact lenses were put on these injured eyes, indeed, it essentially recreated this before-birth environment on top of the eye, allowing the eye to regenerate once again and reduce the scar, improving eyesight.
Then I decided, "You know, I'm just going to give this technology to the world." So, I put online my patent, and I actually went around the world to about nearly 60 nations, teaching about the amniotic membrane contact lenses. Over a 20-year period or so, I taught over 10,000 eye doctors.
So today, amniotic membrane contact lenses are a worldwide hundred billion dollar industry. Doctors from nearly every nation have used the amniotic membrane contact lenses, and millions of patients have had their eyesight improved and restored.
To me, it shows that amniotic membrane contact lenses is a powerful technology that can utilize fetal tissue stem cells, but yet preserving life at the same time. Science and faith do work together.
That's such a remarkable story of God's common grace—that God has given us the commission to use science to help people. He's given us the minds to do so, and He's given us an environment in which we can apply it.
In your journey to faith, praying to God for some kind of technology to help people, and the Christian God specifically answered it by giving you this idea. Is this one of the things that solidified you in your faith?
So, it's a combination of being convinced there's a Creator, looking at the gospels and the person of Jesus, examining the evidence, and then having unanswered prayer.
So, how did this affect you? Because as I hear you talk about your story, it was difficult growing up, but it seems like you felt cared for, you had purpose, you come to America, you had a family that provided for you and loved you.
You come to America, you're grateful for freedom. So, becoming a Christian, how did that affect or shape you personally, professionally, and relationally?
Great question. I think there are three major differences that being a Christian has made in my life.
Number one is purpose. After I finished my 31 years of schooling and was ready to practice medicine as an eye doctor, I prayed again as a Christian, "What does God want me to do that is specific for you beyond my regular job as an eye doctor?"
In those prayers, I felt that God was giving me a direction: I chose my long-sought-after skills to help those who need the most help, which are blind orphan children.
So, that's the message of my book "From Darkness to Sight." Once again, I showed early that it has to do with the stories of these kids—blind orphan children from around the world—how our foundation has helped them come from darkness to sight physically.
But also, at the same time, how these kids, their courage and determination, have also helped me, their eye doctor, to come from my own darkness to light spiritually.
So, the first difference is purpose—a God-centric purpose, a God-inspired purpose that is beyond what we normally do. I always tell my fellow Christians that whatever job you have—you could be a real estate person, you could be a business person, you could be a computer scientist—but what does God want you to do beyond what you normally do?
For me, beyond what I normally do—laser eye surgery—is these charity surgeries to help these kids.
The second major difference is eternity. Being a Christian gives me this fundamental comfort and a chance that if I am a good Christian, since God has died for all sins on the cross and rose from the dead three days later, proving that He can conquer death, I may have a chance for eternity as well with Him.
The third difference, beyond purpose and the chance of eternity, is the journey. Being a Christian doesn't mean that I just declared to the world, "I'm a Christian today; I'm just perfect, and my life is perfect." No, it's a journey.
Life is no less challenging, and the journey is a commitment. That means God is the leader in my life. When I have problems, when I'm stuck in something, I need to recognize I can ask Him for guidance and help through prayer.
I just told you the example that when I was stuck with science and faith, I wanted to help patients reduce eye scarring and restore eyesight, knowing the fetus can heal without scars, doing research on fetal tissue, but at the same time, I don't want to hurt the baby.
Fortunately, I prayed and listened carefully to what God wanted me to do. Eventually, that idea came to use the placenta.
So, those are the three major differences: being a Christian—a God-centric purpose, using science to do what God wants me to do to help blind orphan children; second, a chance for eternity because He is the one who has conquered death, so we could have a chance as well; and third, it's a journey—a lifelong commitment.
The commitment that we need to always resort to Him and ask for help when we're in trouble in life.
Those are three great answers. Now, I've noticed just watching some of your videos online and, of course, your book that you wrote, that you are outspoken about your faith. You described earlier times where you were discriminated against because you were from China.
Have you, at times, been discriminated against in the academic world or in the medical world because of your faith? Has it helped you? Is it a non-issue? Talk about that a little bit, if you will.
Great question, Sean. I appreciate this question very much. Yes, I was discriminated against in the academic world because of my outspokenness about my faith.
In fact, on one occasion, people challenged me on the podium. I was speaking about the amniotic membrane contact lens because I've been teaching for 20 years to doctors. As I told you, I basically donated technology to the world and tried to help doctors learn so that we can increase the speed of dissemination of knowledge.
So, I could share that discovery. I was describing a scientific presentation—no problem—but when I wanted to describe the genesis of it, the idea, as I described to you, some people challenged me. They were not happy; they didn't believe that it had anything to do with Christian faith.
So, in fact, this is how I answered. I told them a story. People believe there's no common ground between faith and science. They said, "No, we don't believe that."
I said, "Okay, let me tell you a story. When I started practicing medicine, I had a strong desire to pray with my patients because faith had played a significant role in my training to become an eye doctor, as I told you—the discovery of the complexity of the eye and the guidance of these Christian scientists and doctors in my life.
So, I wanted to pray, but then people told me, just like those scientists who challenged me in scientific presentations when I talked about faith, that it would be politically incorrect. They said, "Dr. Wang, if you pray, the atheists will be unhappy. They will not come back to see you as an eye doctor."
Then I realized, "Well, that's true." So, I stopped praying.
But then again, I prayed again. I said, "Well, God, I want to pray with my patients before surgery because faith is such an important part of my eventual journey to becoming a doctor, but at the same time, I don't want to lose these patients."
So, I consulted my church elders and consulted the physicians and Christians who I look up to, and they told me that if it's the right thing to do, there's a price to pay.
You know, Christ paid the ultimate price by dying for our sins on the cross. So, I said, "Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to pray. I'm going to go in and pray with all my patients."
So, ever since I started my career, I pray with all my patients before each of my surgeries for them. But as a scientist, I always want to do research.
Because people said there's no common ground between science and faith, if it were up to the atheists, they wouldn't want me to pray. If it were up to myself, I wanted to pray with my patients before surgery.
So, I collected over a two-year period about 200 non-Christian patients in different ways. I figured out they were not Christians and asked each of them the day after surgery, over a two-year period, about 200 of them.
The question was, "Now you're happy with your surgery yesterday, but what I want to know is, were you offended when I prayed?"
Because I'm doing research, I'm always looking for evidence. Is there evidence supporting that science and faith or Christians and non-Christians could have common ground? It seems there was no common ground, right?
Up to non-Christians, they would not want me to pray. If it were up to Christians, I wanted to pray.
So, the answer came back from these over 200 people I surveyed the day after surgery. Over a two-year period, almost all of them said this way: "Dr. Wang, yesterday before my eye surgery, you did pray for me. I was not only not offended, but I was moved."
I said, "How could you be moved when I pray to my Christ that you do not believe in?"
They told me the reason I was moved is that yesterday, underneath your laser, I was lying there. I was nervous about my eye surgery. So, you came to my ear and said, "Can I pray for us before your eye surgery?"
Honestly, the reason I asked for them that is because I was told I'm supposed to be politically correct; I should ask for permission. So, I did every single prayer before I always asked permission.
Then these folks told me the day after in the survey, "Dr. Wang, honestly, I was so nervous underneath your laser when my surgeon came to my ear and said, 'Can I pray with you?' I did not dare to say no."
I said, "Well, I kind of took advantage of the situation, but I took advantage for God, so I feel okay."
But my question is, "Were you offended?" They said, "No, not only was I not offended by your praying, but I was moved."
I said, "How could you be moved when you do not believe in the Christ that I pray to?"
They said, "The reason I was moved is that in one of my most important moments in my life, which is my eye surgery, I do not want anything to go wrong. It has to do with my vision for the rest of my life. You brought something that is most important to you—your Christ—and I appreciate that."
So, at that moment, I realized that it's the love for fellow human beings that transcends the boundary. The faith and religion is the love for fellow human beings that is our ultimate common ground.
That's a great answer. I have one last question for you, and then I want you to tell us specifically about the film that's coming out.
So, you're a scientist and a doctor. You see a lot of pain and suffering and brokenness in the world. How do you make sense of that? Why do you think God allows so much pain and suffering when He could just stop it and doesn't need surgery from somebody like yourself, so to speak?
I think God is looking for human growth in each of us in the real sense. Just like people in America today have taken—how many of us have taken the freedom for granted because we always had freedom?
The manifestation of that taking for granted of our freedom is our unprecedented polarization—the unwillingness to work together across racial barriers, ethnic divisions, and political aisles.
If we had everything, God said everything just perfectly, we would not have the growth in our character. Just like one will not have the growth of appreciating freedom if you're born in a free society and have never been challenged or experienced life without freedom.
So, I think God is looking for the ultimate growth in each of us—the character. That character can only grow by our having experience of not having what we want, but also, even more importantly, by having the experience of making a decision to choose.
Because if you bore the perfect world, we don't need to choose, and we have no experience otherwise.
So, it is the inner growth that God is looking for. He allows these things to happen—these bad things happen—because He's looking for us to have the experience of the bad things so that in comparison, we know what the good things are.
But not only that, He gives us the choice to make a decision. Each of us, by making a decision, can grow as a person.
So, that is a manifestation of ultimate love from God for us. He does not want to just pamper us with a silver spoon in our mouth; He wants us to grow by experiencing and making our own decisions.
That's a really helpful perspective. Obviously, a ton more can be said about evil, suffering, and pain, but given what you've been through and that you're an eye doctor in particular, surgeon, that's a really, really helpful angle to approach this.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Last question: tell us about your film coming out. I can't wait for my kids to see it. I want my audience to go see it and support your efforts. Tell us a little bit about it.
The film "Sight" has been in the making for 10 years. It is based on my autobiography "From Darkness to Sight." It has to do with two parallel lines: from darkness to sight—those kids, their blind orphan children, and how our foundation has helped them come from darkness to sight physically.
But also, at the same time, how these kids, their courage and determination, have also helped me, their eye doctor, to come from my own darkness to light spiritually.
This book has been turned into a movie, "Sight," and it will be released by Angel Studios, which distributes "The Chosen," the Bible story, and "The Sound of Freedom" last year on May 24th, Friday, Memorial Day Weekend.
It will be in theaters across North America, actually for the movie "Sight" at Dr. Wang's books. I also published this book; it's called "Sight: The Bible Study" because the movie is called "Sight."
So, people always say, "What is the message?" The message is seeing beyond. You know, we have challenges in life as human beings, and we need to see beyond our pain.
This is inspired by the people in the story in the movie. All of us, you know, are broken in some sense at some point in our lives. How do we see beyond the pain, see beyond our circumstances?
As I mentioned today, my parents saw beyond the circumstances during the Cultural Revolution, believing that there's a better tomorrow for their kids. That's why they worked so hard, instilling in me the desire to work hard when I was very young—seeing beyond ourselves.
As I mentioned, one of the key differences that made for me as a Christian is the chance to realize that there's more to this life than what we see—the chance for eternity.
As a Christian, seeing beyond our own culture—we talk about today about racial discrimination and very different things—shows that God wants us ultimately to respect all cultures, all faiths, and all people.
You know, that finally, we need to see beyond our polarization. The Bible said to all people, "I’m all people," right?
So, we are living in a world that is so unprecedentedly polarized that we are so fixated on differences rather than appreciating what we have in common.
We're so unable to work together across political aisles, racial divides, and ethnic divisions. Why are we so polarized? It's because we have taken freedom for granted.
He said, "If you're taking something for granted, the result is dispute and polarization." Correct?
It's like marriage—husband and wife. When you have differences, if you don't appreciate marriage, you're more likely to yell and shout at each other, hurting each other's feelings.
But if you do appreciate marriage, you're more likely to say, "Honey, we're different on this thing, yes, but don't we have so much else in common?"
So, the lack of desire to see common ground in human beings is a manifestation of the underlying problem. The diagnosis is that we have taken what we have for granted.
Now, human nature drives us to polarization because of money, control, and power. So, the only way to get us out of the deadly spiral of polarization is to heed a higher calling.
In the film, there is a storyline suggesting an idea of a higher calling—in this case, Jesus Christ—that He is the ultimate common ground seeker.
Dr. Rice Brooks and I also have another book called "The Common Ground Bible Study," which details what we learned from scripture. Not only is Christ the ultimate common ground seeker, but He has also taught us how to find common ground.
So, overall, this film's message is about freedom, faith, and the need to seek common ground.
So, it's a film for all. It's for Chinese Americans, immigrants, Asian Americans, Americans, minorities, but most importantly, it's for all Americans.
Basically, this "Sight" is someone who used to have no freedom and came to remind America how blessed we are to live in freedom. Just like someone who used to be blind reminds us how sight is so precious.
It may just take the story of an immigrant who used to not have freedom to remind all of us as Americans today that we're so blessed living in the country we have freedom.
We need to appreciate it—not just by saying it, but actually doing it. This means being more willing to work across our differences politically, racially, and ethnically to build up America.
To realize that this country is founded on two bedrocks: the Constitution, which gives you freedom, and the Bible, which gives you faith.
Dr. Wang, you really have a remarkable story for our day—of hard work, about the American dream, about living a life to benefit and help other people, about the intersection of science and faith.
It really blows me away. I was telling my wife last night, "I think I've written maybe half a dozen journal articles. I'm a professor; you've written 100, one academic book; you've written 10. You also have an MD, and yet you're writing Bible studies and creating movies to get a message of hope and sight out to people."
That's incredible. It's so encouraging. It's convicting. I can't wait for my family to see your movie, and I hope everybody here who's watching this with us still will go check out "Sight," coming out May 24th, I believe it is.
Is it the kind of movie you can bring a non-Christian to, and they'll be okay with it? Or is it going to be—tell me the answer to that question. Can you bring a non-Christian to it? Is it designed for that?
Absolutely, it's designed to bring two groups of people. For us Christians, one is to bring our kids. Some kids are studying science and technology, and some of them are leaving Christ.
This shows that science and faith can work together. You need science to give you the tools, but you need Christian faith to give you a purpose for what you're going to use the tools for.
It's a film designed to bring atheists and skeptics because it is toned down. It did not talk about the Bible; it did not say Christ, and there's no altar call.
It is through the storytelling, through the transformation—the conversion story of the protagonist—that it is so. We have been showing this film around the country, and nearly half the audience who come to the films were not from those churches.
So, what amazing outreach events, right? We encourage all Christians to bring kids and bring friends, particularly atheists and skeptics, because it's the experience that we together allow them to feel, allow them to make their own decisions after being exposed to these wonderful stories of a scientist who is also guided by faith.
The place that they can get information for the film is angel.com.
We'll link to that below. Thanks for coming on. I've pushed way more time from you than you had given me, so I appreciate you staying on.
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Dr. Wang, thank you so much for all you're doing. This has really been a treat to have you on.
Thank you, Sean. God bless you for what you do. Thank you.