UFO whistleblower Jake Barber would '100% testify' under oath to Congress | Reality Check

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Good day and welcome to Reality Check.

So you've seen the full News Nation special investigation hunting UFOs, where we detailed the allegations of a first-hand whistleblower for the very first time, telling the inside story of the retrieval of non-human craft. I know it's an extraordinary allegation to make, and there are millions of armchair experts out there who think they know everything about this story.

Well, today for the first time, the bloke who told that story to me on News Nation is telling his full account, the full interview for the first time. Jacob Barber is a guy I first met two years ago, and he's not used to the limelight. He's fundamentally somebody who's been trained in intelligence. He's been trained in how to operate in the covert world, and the only reason he's going overt is because he thinks you, the public, have a right to know about the illegal, criminal, and improper things that he believes are going on inside what he calls the program.

But be aware that I think, as George Herbert once said, the life of aspires to know, not be known. It's difficult for any person to make the decision to step out into the limelight, let alone the excoriating glare of many hostile people who are looking for any excuse to pull Jake down from his pedestal.

The interesting thing is he wants to be investigated. He wants the government, the Congress, to tackle this story and begin the slow exposition of what he knows. It's a difficult story, I think, for a lot of people to grasp because the scale of it and the implications of it are immense. Not only does it mean that there is a non-human intelligence that's been engaging with this planet, and contrary to what the Pentagon says, we've known about it for decades, it also means, of course, that the government, or sections of the government, have been lying to us and continue to lie to us. That's an egregious breach of public faith, and at some stage, there is going to be a reckoning.

But ultimately, the big decision now for Congress and for the new Trump Administration is whether they take the allegations of Jacob Barber seriously. So he wants, and we've always intended, for his full story to be told. So here today, for the very first time, is the full interview with Jake Barber, a great and loyal American who wants you to know the truth.

"Hey Ross, my name is Jacob Barber, and for the last 30 years, I've worked for the US government and its private partners in both an official capacity as an enlisted man in the United States Air Force and in an unofficial capacity for the broader intelligence community as a contractor. Over the last three decades, my work has been very diverse and has included the recovery of downed UAP of non-human origin.

I am pleased to share that as of a couple weeks ago, I have fulfilled a promise to our friend David Grusch by getting myself into a skiff with Congress, and I have provided top-secret SEI testimony on the subject matter of UAP. With this behind us, I'm pleased to be at a place where I can share information with the public. The type of information I can share will be limited by my doser restrictions and personal restrictions I have set in order to protect the privacy and quality of life of my friends, family, and colleagues.

So with that, let's talk.

So Jake, you've just made a historic revelation that we are not alone. How did it feel?

Felt pretty good, actually, to get that off my chest.

You've lived with this secret for how long?

You could say more than a decade.

So let's roll back. Let's tell the story of Jake Barber. Okay, you say you were an enlisted man, and then you ended up working for the intelligence community as a contractor. Tell me that story. How did that happen?

Well, in high school, I was 17 years old. I was prospected into a program, an enlistment program. It was a guaranteed enlistment or guaranteed training enlistment program contract for a specific career field at the time called combat control. The career field is still called that. The contract was unique. At the time, it was a 10-year commitment to Air Force Special Operations.

I finished my screening for that program, and in September of 1994, I shipped off to Air Force basic training. Upon completion of that, I went to a place known as Operating Location Hotel. This was Air Force Special Operation selection. I completed selection roughly four months later and then entered into what is known as the pipeline. The pipeline is approximately a two-year specialized training schedule where you go to a number of schools.

At a certain point in my pipeline, I was approached by some individuals who had a discussion with me and convinced me it might be a good idea to consider becoming an airplane mechanic.

Was that to be your cover?

Yes.

Yes, because I noticed your DD214, which is your release discharge document from the US Air Force, which you've provided us. It says you're an aerospace mechanic.

I was a mechanic. I spent a lot of time on the flight line at Pope Air Force Base and an obscure maintenance shop known as the D-21 dual rail shop. I spent a lot of time there in my cover capacity, and I worked hard.

You're constrained very heavily, aren't you, by what's called a Defense Office Prepublication Security Review?

Correct, and that's called a DOOPR for sure, yes.

And if you accidentally or deliberately reveal information that they've told you that you're not allowed to reveal, you can go to jail for the rest of your career?

Yeah, they've created quite a landmine of words to avoid. So there are certain agency names, certain designations in the military that you're not allowed to reveal or use.

Yes, and for good reason.

Let me clarify something, though. You were trained as a top Special Operations soldier.

Upon completing that, I was given orders to Pope Air Force Base, where I spent a lot of time actually working in a maintenance capacity in an obscure maintenance shop known as the D-21 dual rail shop. My time outside of that was spent in any number of clubs. You could say I was a member of many clubs where I got an opportunity to do a lot of interesting training.

You were given extensive Special Operations training.

I trained in things like survival. I was in the parachute club, I was in the scuba club, I was in the weapons club, I was in the pilot club, I even was in the Spanish club, I was in the entrepreneur club, paramedic club.

So they were fully training you for whatever that covert role was going to be?

Nobody was training me. I was there on my own free will, out of my own interest, and trained in a number of clubs.

A mechanic, but you were training yourself in a whole range of different skills.

And I noticed your DD214 document. It actually shows that you've got a sharpshooter's achievement.

Yes, yeah.

So how many mechanics have a sharpshooter's achievement?

Not many. I will say that the standard for marksmanship in the Air Force is pretty low, but I did qualify as expert marksman in a number of small arms.

Right, and you've also, I noticed you're able to talk about the fact that you earned a commendation for the use of combat medical skills to help save the lives of two men in a horrible accident.

Yeah, that's the interesting thing. Every once in a while, my club skills would show up in the ordinary Air Force. Part of what goes on when things are heavily compartmentalized is often the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Serving in my capacity is what is known as an OPFOR, oppositional force. By the time I was deeply immersed in my club training, I soon began to be deployed as what's known as a red team member. I became a red team expert.

So an OPFOR is the bad guys?

Yes, an OPFOR is a utility team, and that team's utility is in pressure testing or stress testing the effectiveness of blue forces, which are the good guys.

Sure.

So OPFOR is trained to deploy their own intuition and innovation in order to make the regular soldiers' lives hell, and that was where I was uniquely qualified and was deployed in that fashion in a number of real-world scenarios and training scenarios.

Now it's a very useful set of skills that you acquired in the Air Force.

Yes, you've essentially had the training of a top-tier one operator at, if you like, Delta Force or STS-24 level, which is the top US Air Force elite group.

But you were not a top-tier one operator.

That is correct. There is no evidence that I was ever assigned to any task force that was associated with those teams you just mentioned.

What were you?

What was I, Ross? I was a highly talented airplane mechanic who got to deploy on a number of presidential support missions. I was a security escort for what are known as HVTs all over the world. I also deployed in Bosnia in support of the hunt for war criminals.

So why do countries like America have covert people like yourself? What's the purpose of it?

Well, there's a lot of utility in what you could call a hidden hand. For better or for worse, the US government and its agencies tend to paint themselves into a corner, and they're bound by their own regulations and rules of play, which makes it extremely valuable to be able to outsource to folks who don't have to follow those same rules.

So you were operating outside of the normal rule book.

But to be clear, there's nothing wrong with a covert role. The US government uses covert operators all the time.

Absolutely. It's 100% in the best interest of everyone in this country and to maintain superiority from a national security standpoint that we play the game that way.

And do you yourself as a patriot?

Do you love?

Absolutely, first and foremost, before anything else. And I'd like to be clear, let's do this right now. I'd like you to know exactly what side I'm on. Firstly, I'm on the side of my family and my friends. Second, I'm on the side of the American people, and I'm on the side of the government and the military, third, and only as long as they're taking care of the first two.

In that time when you were being trained, learning all these skills, did you have any idea about aliens?

No, not at all.

One way you can validate that you were doing special work is that you were actually recommended for a heroism medal, weren't you?

The US Air Force?

I was, I was.

And you're not allowed to talk about that operation, are you?

No, there were classified missions that took place in Bosnia. But every once in a while, things showed up in my record, and at some point, I had the presence of mind to start making copies of certain things, which was a little nerve-wracking because it may have been illegal that I was in possession of certain things.

But this was a letter of recommendation that calls out my particular act of heroism.

Were you awarded that medal?

No, it was squashed by my case officer.

And do you think it was squashed because they didn't want you to be conspicuous?

Yeah, because what the hell would an aircraft mechanic be doing chasing war criminals in Bosnia and doing so to the extent that he would find himself in a situation that would be worthy of a medal of heroism?

Now you can't name the agency, the organization that you were working for, can you?

No, you're forbidden by your doser.

Forbidden.

At any stage during any of the training that you received, was anyone ever telling you that you were part of a government that was aware of the existence of non-human intelligence?

No, not at that time.

And I'll have to tell you that everything changed for me right around 9/11. I left the Air Force and basically made a left turn at Albuquerque. Never part of the global war on terror and quite literally made a left turn at Albuquerque and was sent out to California at that time to begin establishing my cover basis for an independent contractor so that I can serve what was coming down the line next for me, and that is the path which led to the UAP key subject.

In your time in deployment, you met certain people from an aerospace company, didn't you?

Yes, I did.

Now it's also part of the constraints you operate under that you can't name that aerospace company, correct?

There's no good reason to name them, even if I wasn't constrained.

What were they doing there?

Well, they were supporting us with some new weapons technology that could be used to disable vehicles and aircraft.

I can disclose this. My understanding is that they were essentially using, it was, I think it's a matter of public record that microwave weapons, pulse microwave weapons, were being used at that time.

Correct.

There were some early prototypes that were being used at that time, and I met individuals that were there representing the companies that were providing that service to the government. Made some friends, and those relationships led to opportunities later in the California desert, where I began my journey.

Before we go any further, had you ever, as a child, experienced any kind of anomalous phenomena yourself?

No, no.

This was completely off the books for you?

It was a complete revelation to you?

I was born in the 70s. I grew up a fan of Star Wars and Star Trek and Back to the Future, and it certainly was a pleasant and fun idea. But during that same time, it was also very clear that the culture, it was clearly nostalgic, like the subject matter of UAP and non-human intelligence, which wasn't an acronym we used back then, aliens, let's say that. It was 100% a fictional story.

So while I was interested in it, it was purely as an adolescent from being interested by any other fictional subject.

Before we get into the nitty-gritty of what happened after 2001, let's talk about what you perceive are the rights and responsibilities of American citizens under your Constitution.

As an enlisted man, did you swear an oath to the Constitution?

I sure did, yeah.

How much do you care about the ideas and the principles that are espoused in the US Constitution?

Those ideas are absolutely paramount. They come above everything else. Even though I mentioned my family and my friends are whose side I'm on first, I cannot facilitate protecting them without the fundamental nature of the US Constitution. So it is paramount to everything else.

Is it fair to say that the reason why you're speaking to us here today is because you think it's important that the American people be told about what we're going to disclose?

In accordance with the Constitution, Article One of the US Constitution enshrines the idea that all arms of government must be transparent and accountable to the Congress.

Is that happening?

You know, I can't really speak to that. From what we're being told, there is no evidence of extraterrestrial presence here. There is no evidence of non-human intelligence. There's a little bit of admittance and evidence that there's something anomalous in the sky flying around, and we don't know what it is.

So the bad news is I can't really help further that question. The good news is I'm going to begin to be able to start answering that question, and that's the primary reason I'm here to speak to you today.

Do you think Congress is being misled, deceived about what is secretly known about non-human intelligence, alien life engaging?

It's clear they don't have the full story.

What's being held back?

Just about everything. But there's another problem. I don't even know that they're giving it proper attention to begin with. So unfortunately, Congress is very ignorant when it comes to the subject.

So very recently, the Pentagon spokesman assured press reporters in a Pentagon briefing that there is no evidence of extraterrestrial engagement with planet Earth. Is that true?

No, that's not true.

Now they like to hang their hat on some key words there, extraterrestrial. So that means outside of the planet Earth, and that is yet to be determined by my best understanding.

So you're saying you know for a fact there are aliens?

Yes, 100%. There are alien craft.

Have you been involved in the recovery of those alien craft?

Well, Ross, yes, I have.

How does it feel to say that?

I'm kind of over it. Like this has been a fact I had to get over. It wasn't easy when it first hit you. That was years ago, and it's actually quite therapeutic to get to talk about it. I'm encouraged that it's becoming commonplace because that's where it needs to be for us to move forward and start gathering some evidence, which we intend to do.

So you're building up a cover in California shortly after 9/11. What are you doing?

Well, I'm doing a number of things. One, trying to fill out a sensible explanation for my backstory. I mentioned one of the clubs I was in was the pilot club, and you'll speak to my good friend Don Paul here shortly, who I met during that time, but there's no record of that.

So actually, one of the first things I did is I had to go to commercial pilot school in order to create a legitimate training record so that I could operate in an official capacity this time as a helicopter pilot.

So you'd learned how to fly as a covert operator, but they didn't give you a license for it in the military?

No, because you weren't allowed to have that qualification because that would undermine your cover, I suppose.

Correct.

So you had to go and pretend to not be a pilot in order to get your commercial?

Yeah, that was loads of fun, actually. I found it quite challenging to pretend I didn't know how to fly.

So amusing?

Yeah, you must have blitzed it.

Well, pretending to be bad was quite easy in the beginning. The hardest part was faking a natural learning curve, so how to show that I'm getting better in a progression that they've seen before. So that was fun. A few times I took the liberty to mess with my flight instructor, but he just thought I got lucky.

So this happened for what, a couple of years?

Yeah, a number of things were done. So one of the rules we go by is that legitimacy is the best cover. So in order to provide a certain utility to the government by way of a contractor, I have to go and establish a lot of legitimate businesses.

I have to function in a legitimate way under existing contracts to build a cover. A cover is not a hollow shell; it has to be layers deep, and the best way to have many layers of cover is to just go do something genuine to begin with.

So let's be clear about this. You're a very financially successful businessman in your own right. You've done well in business.

Yes.

You are not being paid by us or anyone to do this interview?

No.

In fact, you're deriving no financial benefit or in-kind benefit at all from doing this interview with me?

Why are you speaking to us today?

Well, because I've got some good news.

Okay, so I know everyone's been waiting for people like me to speak out, and we haven't been doing nothing the past several years. There's been a lot going on, and I'm very pleased to share that we are moving forward in an official and transparent capacity to explore the answer to these questions that there appears to be no evidence for.

Our number one goal now is to function in a private capacity with the backing of venture capitalists and in coordination with some of the most key departments in the government in order to start answering these questions in a transparent way related to the UAP topic.

Are you a front?

Am I a front?

Yeah, I mean you've worked obviously in counterintelligence. You're a trained intelligence operative. Is this some kind of disinformation propaganda operation?

No, and I'm going to say no, and I'm going to tell you I'm not lying to you, but unfortunately, there's no way that I can convince you of that if that's what you're thinking.

A lot of people watching this will be thinking, "Oh, you can never trust a spook." You know, there's obviously wheels within wheels. This is part of some official government disclosure operation.

Yeah, is it?

No, it's not. And again, I'm not going to be able to make you believe that, but what I can invite you to do is I'll paraphrase the Book of Matthew: you will know us by our fruits.

So I'd like to invite you to stay tuned in and watch what our new project is about to do and prepare to be dazzled.

So you're proposing you're part of a team that is proposing to do private retrievals of alien technology?

Yes, yes.

And you've got the backing for it?

Yes.

Wow.

So let's talk about now what you do know.

Okay, when you finally secured your pilot's training in the commercial world, what happened?

While I was getting my pilot's training, I was also working to set up a number of businesses in order to pursue government contracts from the DOI, the DOD, and all their organizations and departments within those.

Mostly what we did, a lot like in the 90s, you know, the cover capacity takes up the most of your time.

Is spent operating in the cover capacity?

So you were working in legitimate businesses, earning a living like everybody else?

Like everyone else, you're just waiting for the call.

Waiting for the call.

The incidental benefits of the capabilities of the companies you set up are those benefits that are on standby to be deployed in the subject matter of UAPs.

So you've set up all those legitimate businesses. When did you get the call?

So as a helicopter operator, we provide a number of services to a number of departments within the military-industrial complex, and that includes the Department of the Interior as well as the DOI.

The Department of the Interior has a number of other departments within it, and we worked mostly in those for our CONUS or within the continental United States.

Those operations include things like firefighting, long haul, short haul, which is our external loads for helicopters, working for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, anything you could do to provide utility.

Anything that you could do with the utility of a helicopter, we were put to task.

Gone.

Now at this stage, there was no indication of any anomalous phenomena at all?

No.

When did you first start becoming aware of strange objects in the sky during your work?

Well, a lot of the work we did was on what I call the range, and the range is a particular geographical area where the US government and its private partners use to test all kinds of things, weapon systems, and resilience to weapons systems of certain craft.

So you see a lot of exciting things, and I have to remind you that my particular role is very basic security and transportation.

It gets a little broad as you drill down, but I'm a security and transportation expert, and that's the service we provided broadly to the government and its partners.

So you start seeing at the range?

Yes, interesting objects.

Well, yeah, it's always interesting out there.

You know, it was a process for me getting to the point until we had our first experience with something that was obviously non-human in origin.

But up until that time, there's lots of interesting things in the sky, I can tell you that.

Our technology, and by our I mean anything that lies within the inventory of the United States government and its private partners, is pretty spectacular.

There's some cool things, and from an observer standpoint on the ground, it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.

Things come in and out of sight, things disappear for a moment, reappear, things seem to move very quickly, things change color, they change shape.

And a good reference for this is I'm sure we've all seen these drone shows like that could put on at the Super Bowl halftime or other places.

Those are pretty amazing to see visually, amazing, but we all know that's human tech, and we accept it.

But if you kind of think about that and think about perhaps what we might be doing privately in the interest of national security, your imagination could fill in the blanks on what you might see on a test range that's being used by the US government and its partners.

I mean, I guess we all expect that there's technology that we don't know about that's being kept confidential for very good reasons because the United States doesn't want foreign adversaries to know that it has an aerospace advantage or a weapons advantage over a potential rival.

And were you telling yourself that for a long time when you started seeing anomalous objects on the range?

Yeah, because just like it is now, you kind of have to train yourself. Even once you become a believer in the UAP subject, and you take some folks outside who are believers and they look up, they get really excited and falsely identify a satellite as a UAP or something else in the sky, an airplane that you might not be able to see its position lights or strobe.

So you know what Lou Elizondo has described as the five observables?

Yes, instantaneous speed, incredible hypersonic speeds, transmedium travel, water to air, air to water, positive lift, some kind of propulsion system that isn't explained by conventional systems, and stealth.

So you were seeing objects that complied with those weird observables?

Yes.

And at that time, you would also see things when you talk about the transmedium.

So one of those that would raise your eyebrow is more of the transmedium characteristics because things would come from the ground, like from the Earth, from a ridge, from a mountain.

Or could pass through?

So they'd come out of a ridge?

Out of a ridge, yeah.

That is clearly technology that is certainly not known.

Now again, that is the visual understanding of what you're saying.

And was that human technology?

You just don't know?

I just don't know at the time.

So there came a time, though, where you began to realize that this was something else.

Well, let me add to that. We also know of circumstances, and you'll speak to some of my teammates here, where we did recover things that were exotic in nature in the sky, and we know they were classified craft, and we recovered them and took them back to where they go, and that was a regular thing.

So there are things that we're trying to protect that are far beyond what we know about publicly.

Yeah, much like everything in my story that we're talking about, 80 to 90% of the time, it's very ordinary and boring.

Once you get acclimated to the lifestyle, but for a 5 or 10%, that is the most outrageous and exciting time of your life.

But the majority of what we see and do is explainable and is ordinary and is known by many people and is not classified.

But there is a certain percentage which is extremely sensitive, and that extremely sensitive bit does include what we know is our own man-made advanced technology.

And we work to, our recovery efforts, if this is where we're going with the conversation, when we look at a recovery mission or a crash recovery team, you don't put together a team like that with the intent of recovering non-human craft.

That team is trained and provided the training and tools and technology to conduct a recovery mission for a number of objects and craft.

But in the rare occasion, or let's say the hypothetical occasion, something of non-human origin or source were to interface with the ground, you would deploy that same team.

And that is the segue and how we got involved with this particular subject.

So tell me about the moment when you realized that you were involved in a retrieval of non-human technology, alien tech.

So it became very clear the first time we recovered something that was non-human in origin that that was precisely what we were dealing with.

Our communications changed. Our communication process and procedure was modified.

It was also clear to everyone on the team that what we were dealing with was something that was unexpected versus expected.

And then just visually looking at the object on the ground, you could tell that it was extraordinary and anomalous.

It was not human.

How close did you get?

Well, I was a helicopter pilot, and I operate with a 150 to 200-foot long line, so I got within 150 feet of this object.

What did you see?

I saw an egg, a white egg.

How large was the object?

I would say approximately 20 feet, plus or minus a little bit, about the size of a large SUV.

Did it have any seams?

No.

What?

And it was pure, pure white. It was like pearly white, like a metallic pearly white, the best I can assess.

I mean, what you're describing sounds like something out of a TV show.

Yeah, well, fortunate, I'm going to share some images with you, and you can see one of these flying in the sky if you like in broad daylight.

So you actually saw it in the sky before?

No, not this one, but in our new venture, we've already begun work, and we're capturing sensor data of the exact same craft flying in the sky.

How did you know that that egg-shaped object was non-human in origin?

Well, visually, after seeing all kinds of things in my past, it was clearly something that was ridiculously looking. It's inconsistent with anything I'd ever seen before.

I can also tell you that the reaction by my team, who was very experienced, was atypical.

We changed our entire process for recovery that night. Our communication process changed.

We all knew we were dealing with something extraordinary.

And in addition to that, it has also been verified by me by high-ranking members of the UAP task force that what we recovered that night was in fact known in high craft.

So the implications of that are actually quite shocking.

It means the government's lying to us, which shouldn't come as any surprise to us, but we're being lied to.

I don't, I can't comment on that because I don't know what the government knows.

This operation?

Yeah, I just can't comment to that because...

Do you think it's possible that there are even senior people in the Pentagon who aren't aware of what you know?

Absolutely. There are senior people in all branches of government that are unaware of what's going on at the bottom.

So when General Air Force General Pat Ryder speaks at a press briefing in the Pentagon and says there is no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation or engagement with planet Earth, he might actually be telling the truth because he hasn't been read in like you.

Correct.

Now you have what's called, I understand, a top-secret SCI clearance. You have compartmented intelligence clearance to certain programs.

My clearance is given like on an as-needed basis. So like when I go, it's not like I go, there's no record of me having top-secret clearance anywhere, but I get dis...

Well, there is because in the documents that you've showed us, there is one document that shows a NATO top-secret clearance.

And what does that mean?

That means you are cleared to the highest level that you need to be in order to function in the capacity that you've been assigned on a particular mission, and it's quite a high clearance.

It's a very high clearance.

And so the best effort was done to secure your cover, and as part of protecting that cover, it wasn't allowed to be known that you had high clearances.

But what you have been able to demonstrate to us is that you were in fact given high clearances as part of your role.

Yeah, the clearances kind of accompanied me like a shadow. If I got deployed on a particular mission, let's use an aircraft, an HVT mission for example, high-value target.

I spent a lot of time in the '90s living out of a hotel room at Pope Air Force Base with a pager. That was our technology back then.

So I'll give you a short story that'll tie this together.

So a typical situation for me would be told to go stay at the lodging on base, and I could travel to the chow hall, I could travel to the gym, but I had to stay within that response area.

We would have a sealed aircraft. A sealed aircraft is an aircraft that has been configured and swept, and then a metal seal goes on the door to where if that door is open or broken, we know someone has entered that aircraft in an unauthorized capacity.

So we'd have a sealed aircraft there. If we got dispatched, I would go to an aircraft. There would be manifests that go with that aircraft that would list all the crew members, their security clearances, and a rough description as to the mission.

At those times, the crew would be briefed, security clearances would be issued to that crew, and anytime I was on a high-value target mission that was highly sensitive, I would operate under what is known as a NATO top-secret security clearance.

And there are documents, a few documents that I was able to make copies of that show that.

And indeed, the document that you've showed us shows very clearly that you and the pilot were the only people on board the plane that had a NATO top-secret clearance.

Yeah, probably the reason he was assigned is because I was there.

So not to sound arrogant, but the fact that I was being deployed on that mission meant that the aircraft commander also needed to be read in to a certain degree, which required that clearance.

And as part of the reason why they keep your clearances secret in that covert role so that they have plausible deniability if you ever did decide to speak publicly?

Yeah, here's the funny thing. The US government can make a bunch of rules in order to create a scaling that keeps things intact, but they make a bunch of rules so that they can break them and hack the system and get around them.

It provides great obscurity to create the rules that separate the known from the unknown.

And I want to add one comment here. When we're talking about circumstances like the first time we recovered a UAP, which was the flying egg, that immediately, regardless of where you were or what level of security you're operating under at the time, when that shows up, you're instantly now in a top-secret classified situation regardless of people's clearance.

So before you flew out that day to go and do the recovery of the egg, what were you told?

I was told that we were going out to do our normal thing. We were going to provide range security, and we transport crew, and we're doing our normal range work.

You weren't told that this was an anomalous craft that was clearly of non-human origin?

No, and I genuinely believe no one else knew this was going to happen either. I think it was a shock to everyone.

And at no stage were you ever subsequently told that the craft was of non-human origin?

No.

So how do you know it wasn't human?

How do you know that we don't have top-secret tech that is shaped like an egg?

Right, well, I'll tell you that because of the reaction of my leadership structure and because of my experience working in that capacity, everyone involved was convinced that what we were seeing and dealing with was in fact exotic in its origin.

I'll also tell you that during this process over the last couple of years, it's been confirmed to me by ranking members of the UAP task force that what we were working with that night was in fact an HII, and it was not a unique experience.

The egg, as we're referring to, is known by, and there have been many others that have encountered this type of craft in our atmosphere, outside of our atmosphere, broad daylight, nighttime, all over the place.

You got a good look at this object, didn't you?

Yeah.

Was there any visible propulsion system on it?

No, not what we would know.

There was no engine?

There was no thermal signature.

I was operating at night when I finally came in to pick it up, so I'm working under night vision goggles at the time.

And it was quite clear. I flipped them up, flipped them down, and looked at it a couple of different ways.

Was there a thermal signature?

There was not a thermal signature.

So it wasn't hot?

No.

Now you know general laws of thermodynamics. You know if an object has been flying or driving an engine, it's going to show heat, isn't it?

Yes.

So how do you think that object was being propelled?

Well, that's a great question that we're looking forward to exploring with our new venture.

So when you went back to base, was it the sort of job where you could go to your bosses and say, "Hey, listen, what was that object that I picked up, that strange-looking egg thing?"

No, that's not quite how it works.

When I go back to what you would call my base, when I go back to our facility, that's back to my normal working business, and the people that are involved there have really no idea what's going on when I'm holding myself out for work for the government.

So this is how the compartmentalization system works. It's a need to know. There was no need for the people that you were working with to know, so they weren't briefed in.

Yes, and you only found out incidentally because you saw it on the range.

Right.

So let's keep on going. That's twigged your interest for the first time. You've seen something that does appear genuinely anomalous.

When was the next occasion when you became aware of anomalous non-human technology?

There was another craft that we recovered that I can talk about, and that craft was what we referred to as an 8-gon. An 8-gon is basically a disc-shaped object that when viewed from the top has eight different symmetrical sections that are delineated by some form of ridge.

So it's an octagon-shaped disc?

Yes.

By any chance, was there a name, a nickname for the egg?

Yeah, the egg. We actually called it Nanus, like from the Mork and Mindy show from the 70s because it's ridiculous. That's exactly what it looked like.

And so it's funny when you look back at what may have been the motivation for the 1970s because where else would they then? The egg is a ridiculous idea for a guy from Ork, right?

So you have Mork from Ork who flew to Earth in an egg, and surely gives credit to the idea that some like to think that perhaps there was a PR program that utilized our fascination with Hollywood and television to paint pictures of actual fact as fiction, making it now some weird hybrid you could call faction.

So what time of day or night was it when you came across the octagonal object, the 8-gon?

We did recovery on that both day and night.

So talk me through it. What happens? You're in your chopper?

Yeah, I'm in my chopper.

What sort of chopper?

At the time, it was a Bell 22, which is the same as a N1. It's a twin-engine, twin-bladed Bell helicopter.

You're flying at night?

Flying at night, yeah.

What time at night?

Oh God, I don't remember, like after midnight.

Have you been given any pre-flight briefing?

I would, I'm the one who would be given the briefing, but we are given a loadout on the particular object that when you're flying an external load, we designate two different sites. One's called the drop site, one's called the pick site.

You could say the pick site is where the payload is that you're flying in pickup.

As you're making your first trip into the pick site, the payloads are already rigged and manifested for you and to prepare them for flight.

When you're in route to that object, you're given some basic information like weight estimates, size estimates.

There are two objects that I'm here to talk about. One was the egg, the other is what we called an 8-gon.

The 8-gon was essentially a flying disc with what looked like eight delineated sections when looking down.

And I can tell you what it looked like from looking down because that's primarily how I saw it because I'm a helicopter pilot.

We did recoveries with the 8-gons. There was more than one that made its way to the ground on this particular operation, and the recovery was done at night, and then more was done in the day because of where we operate.

Sometimes things can make their way into the steep terrain. The terrain where we operate is the highest mountain range in the whole continental United States.

And so the decision was made to wait till daylight to recover some of the object or some of the material that was brought down or made its way to the ground that night.

During the recovery of the object at nighttime, I make my way in the helicopter from where we configure the line, and we fly to where what we call the pick site.

There are two locations. We designate them pick site, drop site.

The drop site is the delivery location. We have a crew both at the pick site and the drop site on the ground.

The pick team configures the cargo for flight, so whatever it is, the craft is sitting in a sling waiting for your helicopter.

Yeah, it's sitting. We have these things called pumpkins, which are like rubberized bags or containers.

And from my point of view, it was covered in a pumpkin, at least from the bottom and the sides.

This is one of the most profound experiences I've ever had in my life. I'm about to share with you, so bear with me.

This is for me when it became clear. As I get closer to this pick site, I start feeling odd. I start feeling extremely emotional.

And the closer I get, the more the emotion starts to overwhelm me.

And what do you feel? What's the emotion?

I feel a sense of my mother. I don't know how to explain it. I feel this intense hybrid of sadness and happiness and beauty and song.

And it was very disruptive to me because I had a very practical responsibility at the time to operate a helicopter in the mountains at night.

And I began wondering what was wrong with me. It was late. I'm like, am I just stressed? Am I tired? Am I marinating in cortisol and estrogen? I don't know.

But as I came over this object for the pick, it was this overwhelming sense of emotion.

What's it saying, the object? Tell me what you're feeling.

Like I said, it was an overwhelming sense of sadness, happiness.

Is it your feeling? Are you suddenly having a mental breakdown on the job?

No, I felt like something connected with me. I felt like something had tuned in to me and my soul and was providing me some sense of guidance on what to do and how profound what I was doing was.

And it was so overwhelming that I began to cry.

And I can't imagine crying at nighttime with night vision goggles is the healthiest way to fly a chopper.

No, no, it is not.

And then I'm confused as to why I'm crying at the same time.

And then I'm, do I abort the mission?

So I just did my best to focus on my particular cues when doing this type of work, and I got the load hooked up, and I began flying away.

And once it was just me and that object in between the pick and the drop site, there was about 20 miles in between.

I felt like something was inside of me. I felt like I was possessed by the most beautiful spirit I'd ever been possessed by.

And was it loving?

It was loving, but there was a sense of sadness at the same time.

And had you ever had an experience like this before?

No, no.

It was a very feminine energy, I'll tell you that.

It felt like the spirit of God, but not in any masculine sense that I had ever felt.

It was like, again, the feeling of my mother and my daughter and beauty.

And it wasn't like a...

So it was like a frequency that I was connected with.

Was it scared?

I don't know if it is a thing. I'm still trying to figure out why that happened.

I don't want to say that because I have a pretty good idea of what's going on now, and whatever that force was, since that night, it has stayed with me.

And as crazy as it sounds, it's what's guiding me now, and it's what's providing protection for me.

It's changed your life?

It's changed my life.

Do you think it's made you a better person, that experience?

It has made me a more sensitive and aware person, which I think all of us would be better people.

So that was a moment when you became aware of at the very least a technology that had the capacity to touch you remotely?

Remotely, telepathically?

Telepathically.

Now, telepathy, we are told, is nonsense.

It's fiction.

What happened after you flew the object in the sling to presumably the drop-off zone?

Once I made the drop, before I got there, I was really scared that I was going to have to stop flying and punch this thing off because I was so distracted.

But then I was like, well, crap, now we've got another recovery site. Now we're going to have to recover this.

I'm going to have to emergency land. I don't know.

So it took everything I had in me at the time to get to my drop site, and I delivered this.

Oddly enough, no one in my crew reported having similar effects from this.

I do not believe there was a being in that craft.

I've come to understand now, after being involved with other parts of the programs that are tested on the range, that there is a known and researched and implemented emotional or psychic or what we call a psionic component to the research and development of the UAP program.

Now, Jake, I know it's going to be very confronting for our audience to hear this, but you think that you've discovered something potentially about yourself as a result of that experience, that you might in fact have abilities that you were never aware of?

I know when I, in my childhood, if we look back to when I was a kid, I sincerely believe that the screening I went through in high school, you know, my grandparents are...

When I was a kid, there's the reason I joined the military. It's real simple. I wanted to jump out of airplanes and kill bad guys and make my grandparents proud.

And my grandparents were the most amazing people I've ever met.

You know, they grew up during the Great Depression, dealt with World War II.

And my grandfathers particularly were the strongest and the most sensitive men I've ever met, all wrapped up into one person.

We can call them Navy Grandpa and Army Grandpa, let's say.

So, you know, Navy Grandpa was a very influential naval officer who's actually a member of the SEALs' predecessors, the Scouts and Raiders.

Army Grandpa was an Army captain and a salesman.

They both founded our neighborhood church and literally set the cornerstone to our church together.

Unfortunately, you know, their children, my parents, were very loving people but made a lot of bad decisions.

This led to stepfamilies for me at a very young age, and to get away from the abusive environment, I spent a lot of time outside.

I would tell my mom I'm going to my dad's house. I'd tell my dad I'm going to my mom's house, and I would bug out and just go live outside.

You were living in the bush somewhere?

Yeah, essentially I was homeless, but you know, I just told myself I was a wild commando survivalist, and that gave me pride in what I was doing instead of shame.

And so that I refined a pretty high level of independence at a young age.

But my grandparents were still always there, making sure I had some outlet for certain things.

And so they got me involved with an art program and a music program.

I'll have to tell you, so my Navy grandfather, he was the superintendent. He got his doctorate in education, and by the time I had graduated high school, he had retired as a superintendent of our school district.

So he was a very influential man, and I understand he ran the gifted and talented education program for that school district.

Yeah, you could say he was the ambassador for this area for the GATE program, which was a program for gifted and talented kids.

And my personal experience with that was great.

I just got pulled at a normal class a couple of times a day, at least twice, and got to go to a private classroom where I had one-on-one time with a staff member there who played a lot of games with me inside and outside, and we ran a number of creative classes together.

And outside of that, I also, after school, I attended, I had a private art teacher. I learned music.

And so I felt like I had a unique education experience as a kid.

My grandfather also got me involved in water polo and swimming. He was a diver and a swimmer.

And water polo became a great outlet for me.

I found the competition and the physical exhaustion was like great medicine for me.

Looking back, though, do you think there might have been something special about your connection to the GATE program?

Well, if we look into my high school years, you know, unfortunately, my senior year, I got in a lot of trouble when I did show up to school.

I was a bit disruptive in class. I had a smart mouth. I liked being a class clown, and I got in a lot of fights.

And by the time my senior year came around, I was the varsity goalie on our water polo team, and five weeks into my senior year, I got expelled for fighting again.

And at that time, I was on a disciplinary contract, so my accumulation of bad behavior throughout high school resulted in a contract, which was interesting, and it was a one-and-one fail situation.

And five weeks into my senior year, I was expelled.

At this time, my grandparents decided to hold an intervention, and I don't even think my parents or stepparents know, but the two men got together and met with me and decided to research military programs that would be available at that time.

And so we made several trips down to UCLA to an office near there, and I began going through a series of tests of all kinds.

There were physical, physiological, psychological, creative tests.

And we assumed that all of this was pretty typical.

You know, now don't you that the US Air Force has been secretly testing people through the GATE program for certain psychic abilities?

Yes.

Were you tested?

Yes.

Do you think that might have played a part in what happened to you that night when you were recovering that craft?

Yeah, and I don't know that the Air Force realized that.

I'll tell you, I know others that I've come to meet through the program that we'll talk about that were in a psionic program that have a very similar backstory.

But for whatever reason, I was not used in that way again.

My creativity and intuition resulted in, as I've shared with you before, being used for creative war games, being very creative in war games.

But what I used as intuition, if we make a spectrum and we put intuition on the conservative side, let's say the right side of the scale, on the more far-out side, that might be something that looks a lot like telepathy or telekinesis, and we call this psionics, which we can talk about.

And so I knew I was intuitive. I knew I was creative, and I also know I had a good imagination.

And so looking back, it was clear that becoming a red team expert, those are the tools that I would deploy.

My intuition and creativity is what made me successful in that capacity.

I'm quite struck by how many very senior elite soldiers, special operations soldiers, when they admit what they do in a combat situation where they're facing imminent harm, there's often a moment where they talk about intuition.

Yeah, precognition. They knew something was about to happen.

Does that happen to you?

Yeah, I would say that I have a keen ability to make good decisions short-term and long-term.

I also find comfort in chaos, you could say, and I actually see things more clearly in chaos and tend to make very wise decisions.

And is that a quality that you recognize in a lot of your colleagues in special operations?

Yeah, you might be interested to know that people at an elite operator level, there's a lot of them that are left-handed.

A lot of them that were artists as kids or still are very good drawers, illustrators, musicians.

They're also, if you were to describe their personalities, you might find yourself using some oxymorons like peaceful warriors, sensitive savages, you could say.

That's a real thing, and I'll add one more. We're a bunch of dead serious goofballs.

So there's this dichotomy between feminine and masculine at the extremes that I don't know if you could go as far as to say is the big blue Air Force and the big black Department of Defense knows what they're doing, and they're prospecting for these kids at a level, and they're planning this long-term, well-thought-out path.

But what you will find is that we end up making our way there.

Something made you connect with that machine that night?

Yes, it chose to connect with me and reportedly no one else on my crew.

So when you got back to base, did you report the fact that you'd had that extraordinary experience?

No, no.

Why not?

Because I didn't know what happened, and I don't want... You know, you carry a lot of responsibility as a pilot.

You know, in this process, I've moved from being a very pragmatic person with a tremendous amount of responsibility in day-to-day grind in this dimension to a place where I've had to take into account and incorporate things that are basically metaphysical and find a balance between the two, all while maintaining the trust that I could do my very pragmatic work.

So this was something pretty new to me this night.

The last thing I'm going to do is go back and tell my team that I almost had to pop the load off because I was connected with a goddess that was making me cry.

So you've had those two anomalous incidents with craft?

Yeah.

Clearly, these are objects that are being recovered that do not appear to be human technology.

So this is a good thing to talk about because what we're dealing with is either non-human intelligence, if we want to use those words or that phrase or those acronyms.

It's either that or we need to dramatically redefine what we think human intelligence is because this object, whatever it was, was capable of communicating with you in your mind.

That object or whatever was controlling that object was also connecting to me through the mind, through my mind.

Now you learned, didn't you, that this was the tip of an iceberg?

It wasn't just you.

Correct.

What did you learn?

Well, my work coincidentally shortly after that led me in support of another particular part of the program, which deals directly with looking at this piece right here, which is, is there a component on the summoning side that we call and the operation side of these non-human craft that has to do with consciousness or at least a field of consciousness that perhaps humans can tap into?

And maybe all beings in the universe can tap into?

What is a psionic?

A psionic person is someone with the predisposition for, you could say, extratemporal abilities and sensitivities.

Someone who has fantastic intuition.

What did you discover with the psionics were being used for in the program?

In the program, there was certainly a desire to explore the idea that perhaps UAP could be summoned, could be communicated with, could be controlled, and could be persuaded to land all by deploying people with psionic abilities to interface and communicate with the UAP.

And did you see that happen?

Yes, I did.

So there were people who were purportedly psionically gifted who were brought into the program?

Yes, there were.

Where did they come from?

They come from all over.

And all over, I mean from outside the United States as well as in.

And how are they detected?

How are they picked?

You know, I don't really know. You'd have to ask somebody else.

I'm told that there are particular indigenous communities around the world, Native Americans, people in different third-world countries who apparently have enhanced psychic abilities that are recognized.

Sure, I think most people could grasp the idea that perhaps people that are from other cultures, you know, our culture has leaves a lot to be desired when we look at the contaminants that exist in our food, contaminants that exist in our drugs, and contaminants in our culture.

Some of these contaminants, it turns out, aren't great for your spirituality or your consciousness or your psionic abilities.

And so those who live a particular lifestyle or live in a culture where they have a more natural or direct way of life with nature and their surroundings seem to, within those groups of people, there's a little bit higher demographic than there typically is for those with a psionic ability.

So these people are sought out and are used to contribute to the research that might be going on with the psionic.

I want to put something to you.

Yeah.

I've spoken myself, you haven't told me this, but I've spoken myself to people of Native American background, indigenous Americans, who say that this is a particularly popular thing for recruitment from the program to happen in indigenous American communities.

Yes, I know that for a fact.

There are also people from countries in the third world where these abilities are recognized and not treated with stigma as we do in the western world.

Yeah, there is no stigma. In fact, if there's any stigma, if you're the one who's not playing along, you might be the outcast in those cultures.

So the irony is that part of your discovery inside the program is that there genuinely are people who can actually make a mental spiritual connection to a technology?

Yes, 100%.

Was that a revelation to you?

It was fun. It was actually fun to learn.

That's one of the things in our work that was like, oh my gosh, there's more to life.

It answered certain questions and intuitions, if you will, that we have going back to your childhood.

And if anything, that were most present in your childhood, which is very satisfying because, you know, something as a child, you have this particular feeling, and it kind of dies out as you become more mature and have to take on more responsibility.

And so to be able to nurture that and accept that that might be the case and to see organizations as serious as those who we worked with taking this seriously was actually a heck of a lot of fun.

So this is an analogical shock, I think, for many people watching this because we're all being told, firstly, there's no such thing as aliens visiting this planet.

Yeah.

And secondly, we're all being told there's no such thing as telepathy or psychic abilities. It's rubbish.

Yeah, you know, I don't think there is going to be an ontological shock.

I think people are going to react to it the same way I did.

I think it's going to be an ontological relief because I think everyone deep down knows that there is more to life than what we are being told and experiencing.

And to know that there might be something like a sixth sense that has a spiritual connection and that that might actually have a good nature and application behind it, like not only is it not shocking, but it should be welcomed, I would think.

Well, I'd go through it, Jake. It's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

And isn't that the message you got from whatever that overwhelming sense of beauty?

Overwhelming and love.

And love.

And it's funny hearing an elite soldier talking about love.

Yeah.

And benevolence.

You know what fuels every elite soldier is a preservation of love or something that they love.

That's what's behind all the strength.

So let's go through the psionic program.

When a psionic operator engages with technology, how do they do it?

Using their mind?

Something like meditation.

And I need to preface this by saying this is stuff that I've come to know recently.

The night that I had this experience, there was another team involved, come to find out, was a psionics team, and they were also working that night.

And do you think it was them that had attracted the object in the first place?

Yeah, I do.

And so how did the object come to land?

I think it was invited to land by the psionics team.

Is that always how they make the objects land?

No, there's a number of other ways.

So I have to tell you that, you know, weapon systems are tested out there.

I know this from other sources.

I know that high pulse microwave weapons are being used to bring down some of these craft.

Yes.

Now how often was it done where the objects would land on their own accord, and how often was it done that weapons would be used?

Yeah, I can't tell you how often. I can tell you they are brought down both ways.

That they are invited to land by the psionics team.

Other times they are invited in by the psionics team, but then HPMS, which are high-powered microwave weapons, are deployed, and they have an effect where they can disrupt the flight pattern of the object.

And when it is an object, sometimes it's not, and it can result in that aircraft being forcibly brought down.

When they did the attraction of the objects, was it purely psychic or was the machinery that was used as well?

So there's five components to our operation, which might answer a lot of your questions.

So the first component is a calling phase. Calling is either through man or machine-based summoning systems.

We have man-based systems, which are our psionic assets, which make a psychic connection through intuition or consciousness with the object and can invite it in.

The other is a machine-based calling system, which uses many systems, which I'm not going to go into detail about.

You could refer to them as a dog whistle or a lure, and UAP certain types seem to be specifically attracted or responsive to our machine-based calling systems.

And then from there, once they're brought in, we communicate with them.

Now the CICS can have a dual role because in this communication phase, we do a lot of data collection.

So it's verifying that what we are seeing is something tangible, also that it is responding to our efforts.

So we might invite it to move left or right or to position our particular machine-based systems in a particular direction and then measure the response.

The implication of what you're saying is that this intelligence that's behind these objects, whatever it is, seems willing to share?

Yeah, yeah.

I think it ultimately is working for us, and it is commonly talked about that what we are getting, even when we weaponize it, is a donation, I guess a gift.

And even when we deploy equipment, when there's a combined operation with the psionics team and a machine-based team, all the equipment kind of has to be blessed and brought in when it's a psionic-led operation for summoning.

A lot of people watching this, Jake, are going, "I'm sure this is crazy. This guy's making this up. This can't possibly be true. Alien vehicles, psychic techniques to engage with technology. This is disinformation, fabrication."

Yeah, well, we intend to prove that's not the case, which has a lot to do with the timing as to why I'm coming out now.

We plan to produce that evidence in our new venture with our teams that we've used for years in the legacy program.

We've now gotten out, and we've pooled our resources, and we're backed by venture capital.

We're also working in coordination with the most forefront government agencies that you would want involved with us on this subject matter, and we're going to start producing evidence on all of this, and we're going to share it with...

But you know it works because you've seen it done?

Yes.

And so have your colleagues?

That's correct.

What would you say to people who might say there's no way a secret like this could have been kept for so long?

I mean, you're describing an operation that, in your experience, has been going for at least 10, 20 years?

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know how long the program's been doing this?

I'm sorry, get over it. I don't know what else to tell you.

So it can be kept a secret?

It can be kept.

Oh yeah, secrets. There are lots of secrets, some kept for good reasons.

So let me briefly summarize the implications of what you're saying.

Aliens are real?

So I would like to know.

Unfortunately, we got to get really specific with the semantics.

Okay, so what do you mean by alien?

Something non-human and intelligent built craft that you have been involved in recovery?

Yes, something that is inconsistent with our idea of what a human is is involved with these craft.

Are these intelligences, whatever they are, are they extraterrestrial?

Are they from somewhere else, or could they possibly be living?

That I don't know.

I got to remind you, I'm a security and transportation guy that has been involved in this program really within the purview of those two categories.

So you're going to have to ask someone else.

I presume you got a chance to talk to the psionics?

Yeah.

When they mentally, telepathically engaged with whatever this intelligence was, what did they tell you about it?

Well, that they refer to it as a "they" in a very spiritual nature, something like angels.

Angels and demons, let's say.

There are certainly good energies and bad energies, but it's talked of in a very nebulous way like this because no one really knows what it is.

No one, especially on the psionic side, we're still trying to figure that out.

We're still trying to figure out exactly what it is, and there's probably a number of things going on.

There might be biological entities, and we use the word biological for a very specific reason.

Biological, we don't need, we limit it to that because we aren't here to imply that it is sentient or has a consciousness.

We really don't know that.

There is some evidence that shows it might be the case that these are something like soft tissue drones or lab meat that was programmed in order to operate craft.

Meat robots?

Yeah, okay.

So it really begs the question, but ironically, while some of the biological cargo that comes with these craft is not conscious, consciousness itself is how you interact and pilot the craft.

Which is ironic because for the first time ever, the biological creatures inside are not conscious, but the craft is.

The other implication too from what your experience shows is that whatever and wherever the intelligence is that's behind those craft, it seems friendly?

Benevolent?

Benevolent, yeah.

In fact, loving?

Loving.

If you want to connect with it, if you want to have a relationship, and if you want to see stuff flying in the sky, you need to be channeling a loving energy.

That's the way it works.

Beautiful.

Yeah, it is.

In fact, there can be individuals in the group that throw off that vibe that can mess up the vibration of the psionics work and their communication with the beings, and then you aren't as successful.

Have you, in any of the work that you've done, and I know you're being very limited in what incidents you're prepared to talk about, have you ever come across malevolent intelligence that's non-human?

I have not.

I personally have not.

Have any of your colleagues?

You'll have to ask them.

Okay, the implications, though, of what you're telling us are incredible.

We are not alone.

We are not alone.

There is a non-human intelligence that has been engaging with this planet?

Yes.

To your knowledge, is it just the United States that is having these encounters?

No, no.

I can tell you for a fact that my team has been sought after for our unique service that we provide by organizations outside the United States.

But let's, to be clear, I don't want to put you in the position of imputing that you might have been helping unfriendly countries.

Neither of the countries or none of the countries that you worked with are foreign adversaries?

No, not, and when I say that, I use the word organizations instead of governments because there are many other folks that may be operating in a private capacity.

So let me say this: this situation is not unique to the US.

To your knowledge, are Russia and China doing retrievals of non-human craft?

I have no idea.

I imagine they are.

Why would you say that?

Well, because this particular activity is not unique to the United States.

I know for a fact that members of my team have been asked to provide our expertise and service for organizations outside the US, not China and Russia, but you know the US government does not have a monopoly on the UAP subject matter.

I mean, the skies are not classified. Your consciousness can't be redacted.

So the NHI can connect with whoever the hell they want, and whoever the hell they are can connect with NHI.

And this lends itself to a particular situation or formula that you can imagine exists, which is if you have a belief that this is a worthwhile venture, which ironically the government has made extremely clear, like there are many people, myself and our new organization included, that are not waiting on the government to say this is something you should invest time and energy on.

And that's become abundantly clear in the last two years.

But prior to that, anyone that had the will to believe that and the money to invest and the tools and techniques and talent in order to do it could set up their own communication, crash recovery, and reverse engineering program anywhere in the world.

The NHI is not holding itself out exclusively for the United States.

Why has this been kept secret from all of us?

Oh God, I don't know.

I really don't know.

I imagine, you know, I have to trust that.

Be careful what you wish for. There might be very good reasons.

I imagine that some of what we see, I know that some of what we see is our own advanced tech.

And it's absolutely imperative that we keep a competitive advantage over our adversaries.

As a patriot, that's paramount.

We need to be able to defend ourselves, and unfortunately, you can't tell the public things without telling your adversaries.

So therefore, the public, for their own good, is going to be kept out of the know on certain subjects.

And so there's this difference between secrecy and privacy, and I lay this out because we need to be able to flip back and forth between the two.

Privacy is something that protects responsibilities and the dignity of whoever needs that privacy.

Secrecy is something that typically hides vices, amoral intentions, and crimes, let's say.

I know for the most part that what we're dealing with when it comes to our government, the subject matter is a matter of privacy, not secrecy, if you want to look at it that way.

Somebody you discovered was recording these operations in secret.

There are videos of these operations that were captured illegally during these operations that are out there.

You became aware, didn't you, while you were doing these retrieval operations that there was concern from a private aerospace company that certain computers had gone missing?

Yes.

And those computers were Panasonic Toughbooks, correct?

Five Panasonic Toughbooks.

What happened?

Well, we were deployed on a particular task to recover what we call HVTs or high-value targets.

Those high-value targets were Panasonic Toughbooks, and whatever was on these Toughbooks was highly sensitive material.

And this came about, I have to tell you, after 2018.

It is quite possible, I will say, that the sensitive material that is on these Panasonic Toughbooks has to do with sensor data, video, that was illegally captured during some of these operations, some of which may be incriminating or classified.

Now I can understand a lot of people may be watching this may be indignant, but there are good reasons why some things are classified in the US.

Absolutely.

So you were tasked to get these laptops back?

Yes, because the concern was they could break the secrecy of the whole program.

I can't speak to what the implications were of this sensitive information getting out.

You know, my job is pretty simple. I get tasked on something. I get given a pretty narrow scope, and after doing this for 20 years, that's enough for me because everything that I've done up until now is I've been very well taken care of, and everything, I trust the process by which we operate.

So I'm only preloading it that way because that wasn't the case.

By the end of this operation, for the first time in my career, by the end of this operation, we began asking questions we've never asked, which is who are we working for? What is going on? And why did it turn out to be that there were two seemingly adversarial parties trying to employ us to go after these HVTs?

So what happened?

So my team and I worked in coordination with our contact for this particular task.

There was obviously another team involved, which is an intelligence team.

Most of our intelligence came by way of human, which is human intelligence, which is essentially the reporting of information by a human by their own observation and experience.

And we recovered our first two Toughbooks.

They were in the high Sierras, I'll tell you that.

And we had first deployed, began recon on that particular target for the first two in the wintertime, and there was tons of snow.

So we continued to just observe that location in order to keep tabs on who might be coming and going.

It's very remote. There's no way there.

The only way to get there would be by foot or horse, helicopter.

So we did a couple snow surveys, and at the time, the snow was over 9 feet, so we had waited for the thaw before we would deploy to get these first two.

Are you and your men armed?

Yeah, we're always armed.

Yeah, because whoever this was is potentially very dangerous.

I'm armed when I go to Starbucks, so that's not saying much, but we were armed.

Yeah.

So what happened?

So we recovered our first two Toughbooks.

We got back to our base location and then went through them and took photographs, discovered that the hard drives were missing, which is something we expected could be the case.

We then took pictures and detailed reports of the Toughbooks and the contents of the casing that we found them in, and we delivered them to a very familiar facility, which is consistent with the company we were working for.

And then we went back to task and waited for more instructions on where to look next for the missing components of these computers as well as the other Toughbooks that were thought to have been out there.

The next piece of intelligence that came through led us to a lake, a high-altitude lake, and we

own air assets and we got the hell out of there. Um, you felt you were in significant danger at? Yeah, and I was concerned that we were being set up. We were being prepared for the one thing that we've always offered employers, and that is plausible deniability. And that we were perhaps going to be the hidden hand that gets severed, and that perhaps we were the ones who may be responsible for capturing that sensitive material on the front end.

Do you think that you and your team had come under suspicion for the videos? Is it as simple as that? I think that's very likely, or we were a suitable PI. I do have to put one thing to you, yeah, because it's an incident that I've been told about from 2004, and I've been told about it by multiple people. I've been told that a private aerospace company was testing one of its own vehicles, what's referred to as an alien reproduction vehicle, an ARV in the colloquialism. That vehicle crashed somewhere south of New Mexico, possibly in Mexico.

And I'm told that a team from that private aerospace contractor was deployed, and while they were there, another team arrived from the US military. They had innocently been deployed by their government to intercept what they thought was a potentially anomalous craft. And in the course of that encounter, I am told two men were killed. Can you comment on that incident?

Yeah, there's nothing I can add to that story or comment on. If I did have something to add, or if I had knowledge of that, it would certainly be something I would expect to get squashed by Doster. Um, and quite possibly if I was involved in something like that, I probably wouldn't share it for one of my other reasons, which is maintaining the privacy and quality of life of my friends and family.

It's too dangerous for you to talk about potentially? It certainly, I, it would be, yeah. Can you speak more broadly, without referring to that particular incident, speaking broadly about the implications from the program? Do you believe people have been hurt or killed as a result of attempts to protect the secrecy of this whole venture?

Yeah, it is my understanding and belief that unfortunately that is true. People have been murdered; that seems to be the case. You were in a situation where what you were doing was plausibly deniable. You felt under threat. You were asking who you were working for. Who were you working for?

Yeah, for the first time in my career, let me start by saying that for my entire career, both in the Air Force and as a contractor afterwards, I've been very well taken care of. I was given time off to get my head right when I needed to. I was given time to take care of my family when my wife had twins. Um, I've been very well compensated. Um, I've been trusted, and everything that needed to be laid out before me when put on certain tasks was as advertised and as promised.

That all changed in 2018, and I cut ties and built, had to get rid of everyone on my team and build a brand new team from scratch the same way I always had. But we cleaned house, and I went back and recruited through very reliable sources, um, the type of team members I always have from the places I always have. And we set out to try and figure out exactly who the adversarial parties were that were both interested in these laptops.

Um, and again, it was obvious to us at least who the employer was, um, but they were now in question in my mind as being part of the problem we ran into. And it became clear to me after working in this world that perhaps it wasn't this company; perhaps there was someone in mid-level management or someone completely external that was masquerading as representatives of this company, and they liked wearing their merchandise.

Okay, so we came up with a plan, and I decided we're not going to ask questions down here; we're going to go to the top. So I reached out to the director of security for the particular organization and a sister organization and set up a meeting with them and went and spoke to them directly about our operation to find out which was true. Because there were only two truths in my mind: either they were complicit or they were compromised.

So either their company and their chain of command was compromised, meaning the top had no idea what was going on at the bottom, or they were complicit. This mission that we were asked to do was directed from the top down. So the question in your mind was, was this a rogue operation? What did you find? What did you find out?

Well, I found out that the people at the top claimed to know nothing about it, and they didn't want to touch it with a 10-ft pole, and they advised me to leave it alone. So this leads you to the possibility that this was a rogue operation. Somebody was tasking you to do things, dangerous things, where your life had been in danger and your team members had been in danger.

This is a good example for everyone watching as to how something like this could be kept secret, because you could think of me as, again, I'm just a security and transportation specialist. Everything else I'm speaking to and that I know about, I gain just from my own knowledge and interest of being in the environment. But I speak to a lot of things that aren't necessarily my specialty.

I'm on the very fingertips of this thing, which is part of why you haven't heard from me before. I operate in the shadows by design. I'm the fingertips of this thing. I have firsthand accounts of working with these craft and in these organizations. They're up here at the shoulder, like our friend David Grusch has worked at a very high administrative level. He didn't know who I was; he had to find me through the process.

And so there are things that the shoulder is intending to do, if we're going to use a joint analogy, that ends up being facilitated by individuals on the fingertips. There's another joint in between; that's the elbow. This is that mid-level. Something could be dramatically redesigned and repurposed at the elbow joint to where the mission of the fingertips is not consistent with the mission of the shoulder.

When you confronted the head of security for that unnamed private aerospace company, what was his reaction? Was he nervous? Oh, he was nervous. I mean, it's quite unusual for you to go and knock on the door of a very, very senior person in such a huge organization.

Yeah, no, he welcomed me, and this is something that we had made arrangements for, right? But was he perhaps freaked out, frightened when you confronted him about what you told him? No, I like to think I know how to make myself come across disarming. And so he told you to forget it.

We had a lovely talk, actually. It was very personable, um, very congenial, and he shared concerns. Maybe he, like, I would go as far as to say he had more concerns than I did. And he was at a point in his career where he didn't want to deal with this anymore. He was making changes in his career to try and distance himself. If he had any knowledge at all, it was clear he was trying to distance himself from it.

Um, he didn't want to get involved, but he did provide some advice on who, where we should go. Um, if you look at the Inspector General function of any organization, that is certainly a place that he recommended we go. But he made it clear that there were some inspector generals that may be a better place to go than others.

And is that what you did? No, I didn't do that. Why didn't you go to the Inspector General? Um, 'cause these are the oversight agencies that the US government has set up to properly investigate these kinds of abuses of power. It wasn't at that point. You got to remember, like, I had lost all faith in everything. I was starting at ground zero. I even fired my whole team and was rebuilding my own network from the ground up.

Um, so at this top level, I'm a fingertips guy, so my knowledge of the shoulder, I was not going to go. I didn't know who to trust. So even going to an Inspector General, the expectation would be for me to just spill all. So, um, I hadn't done my homework enough to where I felt comfortable going to an Inspector General, and I wasn't sure that that was going to provide me the outcome I wanted.

So what did you do? So the first thing I did is I began expanding the list of people whose opinion I was going to ask. And, uh, through that process, I found myself reaching out to the one thing that was always my "get out of jail free" card, which was I knew if anything got bad, I could go to members of Congress, particularly the Senate Intelligence Committee, the monitor for the CIA, and plead my case and ask for help.

Um, so we started there, and unfortunately, that was a very disheartening experience because me going there asking for their help very quickly turned into them asking for my help. You're kidding? No, no. Um, which was extremely disappointing, to say the least. But they were scared. They were scared, and they were running into their own problems of being in fear of—they were being harassed, and they were afraid for their own personal safety.

So people investigating this UAP legacy program for Congress were feeling threatened? They were feeling threatened, and other people they were speaking to as sources were being threatened. And so they very quickly, after learning who I was, began asking me for personal protection and for strategies to mitigate threat.

But you're not getting the help you need? No, I'm like, I came to you. So that pretty much was a devastating moment where I'm like, shoot, we're all alone. Um, and it was unfortunately a much more grave situation because what it indicated was that our Congress was not only ignorant to the subject; they were neutered. They were neutered by what they could do about it.

Why? How? I mean, it's in your Constitution, Jake. The Constitution enshrines the idea that Congress rules everything, is accountable to Congress. Congress needs an enforcement arm, so laws without enforcement don't exist.

So Jake, hearing your story about a psionic program inside the legacy UAP retrieval program makes me think back to cases like the 1980 Bentwaters incident, where at an RAF base, a Royal Air Force base in the United Kingdom, Christmas 1980, a craft allegedly landed in an adjacent forest, the Rendlesham Forest.

Yeah, what do you think happened there? Man, that's one of my favorite cases. Once I began looking into the history of this thing, that's one of the ones that stood out to me, especially when you think about where we are now. I’ll tell you this: if Bentwaters happened tomorrow, like, this thing would be over with, and 'cause they couldn't conceal it.

Like, well, you couldn't conceal it, but it's just everything we're looking for has already happened. Like your book, for example, in plain sight. If you just look, it's so obvious. But that one case has everything we need, and I don't know how anyone can say there's no evidence of extraterrestrial.

And maybe they're hanging their hat on the—that's why we have non-human intelligence. Maybe they're trying to hang their hat on this one little narrow place they can slip through, which is things are not from outside the planet. I don't know how they're doing that, but whatever the case, what went on at Bentwaters has everything we need.

It has firsthand experiencers, people that have made physical contact with the craft, um, the most reputable people in the Air Force at that time working on a nuclear facility. Um, OSI shows up immediately. The Office of Special Investigation. Office of Special Investigation—that's a US Air Force office. Yes, people are sworn to secrecy.

Um, people—it happened on multiple occasions. There's multiple sensor data that goes with the firsthand witness testimony. What do you speculate brought that craft down?

Well, I'm certainly speculating, but after my experience, I think what may have happened in that case is it may have been a craft that was attracted to a psionic asset or was being operated by—if that craft was ours and it was being operated psionically.

Um, there's this thing called link loss. Link loss is a common phrase used with drone operation. Drones are, or UAVs as we call them, unmanned aerial vehicles, um, or UAS, they're also called that, unmanned aerial systems, are operated remotely. In the off chance that there's a disconnect between the operating system or the transmitting side and the receiving side within these craft, um, it's called a link loss.

And when that happens, um, our man-made systems are designed to RTB or return to base, or they can go to designated landing sites in a link loss. So that same system would be deployed because commonly what happens with a psionic asset who is using a form of intuition and consciousness to connect with a craft, uh, there's a disconnect we call it, which is like link loss.

Um, I can tell you when we run exercises using the psionic assets in an intentional environment to get samples to the ground, we intentionally disconnect the psionic asset so that the HPM systems can be energized because there are some potential issues that can happen if the psionic asset is still connected to the craft when it's hit with an EMP or other HPM.

I'm told part of their consciousness can stay in the craft? Yeah, it seems to be the case that, um, the human being can suffer some form of cognitive injury by still being connected to that craft when that craft is de-energized.

There is a case at the RAF Bentwaters during the RAF Bentwaters incident in the United Kingdom. There was a man called John Burroughs who was exposed to what we now know was an extraordinary amount of gamma radiation, dangerous radiation, and he suffered quite terrible injuries but had a terrible time persuading Veterans Affairs that he deserved medical assistance because he couldn't prove that this was an occupational exposure to radiation.

Well, I can tell you I came to know the name John Burroughs because I've been seen by the same doctor as him, Dr. Gary Nolan, for the exact same reason. So what happened to you?

Uh, we're not quite sure, but the first time I got exposed to what in hindsight is obviously a radiation exposure of some kind is we are transporting HVTs, high-value targets. High-value targets, which at this time was a large sealed container. Um, I'll tell you I was near the continent of Africa, and after this particular mission, me and everyone on my team got extremely sick.

How sick? Like physically ill in the hospital. Um, within, you know, weeks after this, I lost every hair on my body, which they call alopecia, um, migrating alopecia. Um, and I also lost the skin on my arms.

So the skin's actually falling off your body? Yeah, like not just falling off; it was lopping off within a couple of days, like a severe sunburn. This led to a series of all kinds of other what I've learned since being with Dr. Nolan is autoimmune issues.

Um, I ended up developing a severe heart murmur that I never had before, which is the same thing that John Burroughs had. Um, and throughout my career, I would have reoccurring autoimmune dysfunction when exposed to other things.

Uh, I ended up recovering from that at the time, and because of the nature of my work was classified, the VA was only dealing with symptomology, not causation in the treatment of my injuries, and I didn't even really understand that it was radiation.

So were you treated for radiation poisoning? No, I was not. Are you being now? No, I'm not being treated now for radiation poisoning. But you're being—what? You're being investigated for what sounds like a radiation exposure?

Yeah, because I had other occurrences later in my career after 9/11 when I left my enlisted capacity and went to work as a contractor. I've had other episodes where I've had other illnesses, and I've lost the hair on my body and patched out several times.

And to me, I don't know if this—my fear is that there's something permanently broken that might show up in the form of cancer or God knows what later in life, and we're going to be way behind in trying to figure out how to deal with it.

So I did leave the service with a service-connected disability through the VA, and so I'm getting treatment through the Palo Alto VA under the supervision of Dr. Gary Nolan right now. And he's dedicating his expertise and his clout to get me the best treatment I can get.

Now, Professor Gary Nolan is one of the world's top immunologists, a hugely respected scientist who has, as I understand it, spoken publicly that he's been involved in a program for an intelligence agency that's right, investigating Havana syndrome.

Yes, so does it give you some comfort that you're now getting the medical help that you should have got all those years ago? Hell yeah, it does. And plus, he's got the best bedside manner I've ever experienced.

So, but clearly, because of the covert nature of the job you were doing, you weren't told what you'd been exposed to? No, no. We transported what we called mystery boxes all the time. I have no idea; it could have been empty. It probably wasn't empty, but we don't know what was inside the boxes.

And what were you told if someone tried to seize that box? What was I told? What were your orders? Oh, we maintained the authority to use lethal force if anyone tried to seize those boxes. So whatever that box was, it was extremely valuable to the US government.

That's correct. I have to say, Jake, the idea that you would be so recklessly exposed, you know, a person who's clearly patriotic, somebody who's clearly been a highly trained operator at the elite levels of Special Operations in the US military, it offends my sense of decency that employers would expose you to something so recklessly.

Can I put on my speculative hat for a minute? Sure. Okay, so if the Air Force, let's say, knew that what we were working with that night had any type of radiological signature or could turn on or turn off, there's a whole set of processes that we are trained in on how to deal with that from a Hazmat perspective and a containment perspective and a measurement perspective on our person to detect the level of risk that might be associated.

And the fact that none of that was apparent that night tells me they didn't know what was in the box, and it got turned on or turned off, which leads me to believe in hindsight all these years that it may have been something of non-human origin or, let's just say, exotic.

It may have been something exotic that activated or still had some fallout, let's say, that they were unaware of. Now, are you the only person that you're aware of inside the program who's suffering health effects? No, no, not at all.

How many are there? Uh, more than me, and probably 51% or greater, I would say, are suffering some form of health effects. Yeah, I have a half—I’ll just say that. Just so you know, it's more common than it's not.

That's heartbreaking. I mean, we ask our men and women in service to do so many things. The idea that because of a program is secret, you wouldn't get the help you need. I'm going to push back on that a little bit. I don't think this is something that's unique to the program, as we keep saying.

I would say 51% or more of the people that come out of the military have—and they sacrifice their bodies for good reason. That's part of what we're willing to do. I mean, the ultimate sacrifice, they say, is death, which we've all agreed to do, is to give up our life.

So anything less than death goes in with that obligation that we gave up voluntarily. So the military at large or anyone that works in this capacity in the broader service of our nation, they—you get injured, especially doing it 30 years.

In the course of your high-value target investigation, you met Dr. Steven Greer? Yeah, yeah, I did. What was the purpose of meeting Dr. Steven Greer?

Um, well, first of all, I'd like to say that, you know, you could say what you want about Dr. Greer, but the guy's been 30 years ahead of everyone else on a lot of the details of this subject. Um, so a lot of what he says is correct. He, to me, he's like the Bentwaters. Like, we had everything we needed in 1980, and now we're fishing around for morsels of that.

This guy, he's been ahead of everyone, and what I find quite funny is the one thing he gets the most flack for is the one thing he's probably most right about, and that is his CE5 protocol. So CE5 is when he uses meditation, and he claims it engages telepathically with the phenomenon.

Yeah, that's his term for it. Like, we don't use CE5; we don't use Dr. Greer's protocol, nor do other people in the program or subsequent programs. So CE5 is real?

Yeah, if we're going to use his term, I'll tell you what is real is the ability to go into something like a meditative state and summon UAP and pilot UAP. That is real; that's 100% real. Wow, I have to process that for a moment because that is just the most extraordinary claim.

Yeah, well, we hope to prove it soon. On what basis did you approach Dr. Greer? My understanding was that whoever was in illegal possession of these HVTs may have the intention to expose that sensitive material as a whistleblower. You were concerned he might take it to Dr. Greer?

Yeah, I was still working in my official capacity of protecting the sensitive data that was on these HVTs; that was my job at the time. So Dr. Greer was scheduling a whistleblower conference in DC and was holding a large event at the Press Club in Washington, DC.

And so we reached out to him. One of my teammates made a bump with him in the Virginia area and shared with him some information to pique his curiosity and to also bonafide ourselves as someone he should maybe consider listening to. And we set up a meeting, and I explained to him, um, upfront what our intentions were, that we believed that there were whistleblowers that might come forward with something that, um, is sensitive and it may not be appropriate to disclose.

And I asked to become, um, asked to be put in a position of authority with him where I could vet his whistleblowers. So we offered our service to help vet whistleblowers at the time, thinking our guys, whoever was, uh, whoever had these HVTs might show up with the content. Nope, they never did.

But it was on this trip that we were—what was interesting at the time is we were contemplating our own whistleblower path forward because of what had happened. Because of what had happened, it was happening at this time.

And so what surprised me is during this event, a young Marine named Michael Herrera came forward with a very particular story and spoke of a particular operation that we were aware was taking place, um, or operations like it, let's say, were going on.

And I saw this young guy get up there, um, and it just spoke to me, call it my intuition that was blessed. Um, I was blessed with that night. I made contact with non-human intelligence for the first time, but my intuition was on, you know, was on high alert that night.

And when he spoke, I knew what he was saying was true, and no one else was believing him, and he was wrong about a few key things that he was speculating on. And so I made the decision after he spoke to go to Dr. Greer and ask to speak with him privately.

So let me summarize very quickly what Michael Herrera alleged. He was on a relief mission in Sumatra, Indonesia. They were deployed, he and his small patrol, to a particular area, and they were helping find people who needed help.

Yeah, in the course of that patrol, they were carrying weapons. That's something that's been vigorously disputed by some of his colleagues, but he's adamant that he was carrying weapons, and they stumbled across a craft, a gigantic craft, yeah, many, many, many meters wide, hovering in the air.

And below that craft, there was a platform with trucks, Ford 150s, and there were containers that he described that pushed buttons with you. What he described, didn't he? He was told—he told the Greer disclosure conference, which was in 2023, that the paramilitaries pointed their weapons and threatened to kill the Marines, that they were American.

They took their guns off them, and they basically threatened that they were going to be killed. Yeah, that's exactly what he talked about. Basically, they were told eventually they were released; they were told to walk away. Their weapons were unchambered; there were no rounds in the weapons, and they were told to walk away.

They allowed them to leave, but they were told not to look back. Yeah, I can't speak to all that, and let me be clear, um, that is never—that is not the type of group I would ever volunteer to be a part of. But I know that, uh, there are guys like that out there that get chopped out and become part of these programs.

The particular part that struck me were two things. One, the description of his craft, although the size was enormous, I have no experience with a craft that size, but the craft he designed was precisely the same craft that we had come in contact with in our operations within the United States.

And that is, it was a disc with the eight-gon construction when viewed from above. Um, the other thing was he spoke of the containers, and his initial speculation was that they may—they must have been moving drugs because they had something on the top that looked like some form of HVAC system of some kind.

Um, and I knew right away those are the same type of containers used for the site team when they're operating and being transported. So what are the containers used for?

The containers are used for transportation of the site team and also just as an operating base. It's a mobile operating base. Um, and so this quickly went off the rails because for some reason, the term human trafficking got put into the story after—or got put into the minds of the people that were hearing his story after I got involved.

So what did Michael Herrera think? He thought they were either gun running or drug running, didn't he? Yeah, he thought they were—that's what he assumed; they were running drugs. And, uh, I knew that those type of containers, when associated with that craft, were used for the site team.

That's why they had mini-split HVAC units on the top, um, to provide comfortable environments inside for humans, for either transportation or for operation. You can operate inside those containers, and they're sealed. They're kind of like a Faraday cage in that regard, where it allows you to concentrate.

If you're going to operate from those, you can concentrate on your work as a site asset, or they're used to mobilize. So clearly, whoever those men were, they were American; they were private military contractors, and they weren't very friendly.

No, are they the people that you feel pose a threat at times to the legitimate operations of the program? Yeah, I think it doesn't take many bad apples to ruin the batch. 'Cause to make the point, you're at pains, aren't you, to emphasize that generally this is a well-run operation that runs on ethical boundaries?

Yeah, moral boundaries. My primary message that I want to get across is that this mass vilifying of what's referred to as the military-industrial complex is a very bad idea, and there are very good people that work over here. Not just good; the best. The best and brightest that America has to offer.

And the goods and services that are provided by those organizations, which fall under the military-industrial complex, are the goods and services that make our country the greatest in the world. Um, and we benefit from those on a daily basis.

And so to mass vilify it en masse is not only—I—that's a crime in itself, but it's a shame. And we're so hungry to—people are so eager to quantify where their threat is coming from. We want a bad guy, and this is not an entire cabal of bad guys.

There are a few bad guys like it everywhere that operate within the military-industrial complex, and unfortunately, um, their operations get the spotlight. So you decided that Michael Herrera's account made sense to you from what you knew about the program. What did you do?

Um, I told them—I told them what I believed was going on and that I knew that there were operations going on OCONUS in third-world countries to recruit and train psionic assets. Um, and whether or not this was an opportunity to recruit or provide job opportunities to new people, or he stumbled upon an operation in which they were currently being deployed, and maybe they had to evacuate themselves from that area because of the natural disaster—who knows? But that's all speculation.

There's two implications that come out of that. Firstly, we're recruiting psionics from Indonesia, a foreign country. Yeah, are those people given—are they voluntarily going? Are they?

Yeah, it's my understanding they're very well taken care of. Um, you have to think—and this is where the human trafficking idea was a very unfortunate turn in Michael's story, especially after my involvement with it, because now, oh great, now we got this guy that is at least somewhat indirectly informed that there's a human trafficking operation.

And when we talk about human trafficking, we think of sex trade and all kinds of other things, and this is not it at all. I'm—it is my understanding that the programs that are conducted to recruit psionic assets in third-world countries, these people come willingly.

And if you were to go down there and try and liberate them with any type of, you know, Liberation Army, um, you'd be liberating people that don't want to be liberated. They get very well taken care of; they get fed.

There's actually a sense of pride, especially within the Native American communities that have been involved in this program that do cooperate outside of OCONUS as well. Um, there's a sense of pride with this skill and ability.

And so again, this is another example of—it's almost like we want there to be darkness in this area, and there is not darkness. And I'll tell you, by nature of my experience, as I shared, non-human intelligence itself does not operate that way.

And so these people that are—whose skills are nurtured are basking in a glow of light, I would assume, most of the time when they're doing their work. For them, it's a very positive experience engaging spiritually with this phenomenon.

Yeah, that's what you say; they're basking in some divinely beautiful frequency in order to do the work properly. The implications from what you're saying are that if Michael Herrera is telling the truth, if he really did see a gigantic octagonal craft floating in midair with no visible means of propulsion in Indonesia in Sumatra in, I think, 2009, it suggests that a private military contractor working for an aerospace company was operating some kind of reverse-engineered vehicle.

Yeah, it's certainly possible. I would say, especially based on what I saw, I dealt with a much smaller version of an octagonal saucer. This was a bigger one; I could certainly see that being possible.

Can you answer me this question? Have you seen any alien reproduction vehicles, any replica vehicles made from non-human technology? I honestly can't tell you with certainty. Once we get into the space, I can tell you what I know has been human, what has been non-human. When it gets into the hybrids, I just don't know.

Can you tell me how many retrievals you've been involved in? No, you—that's a classified thing. Yes. Can you tell me, were the remaining, I think, four hard disks ever recovered? The four tough books? To my knowledge, no, we stopped at two.

So there are still four hard disks containing potentially incriminating material at large somewhere, or somebody else was hired and they recovered them? Is it a question mark in your mind that maybe it was a foreign adversary power that was trying to procure this incredibly sensitive?

That's certainly possible. Was there a name for the psionics? Was there a term that you used for them? Uh, there's a term we used, which is what the P3 program. Why the P3? There's three Ps: it's the psionic predisposition potential. P3.

Yeah, now that's not an official program name that you'll find anywhere; that's why I'm able to say that. From your understanding of the kind of people, obviously, who were capable of psionic ability, obviously, there's people of Native American background, people from third-world countries that are deeply spiritual that appear to have this capacity to engage with the phenomenon.

Was there any other group that was especially susceptible to being able to engage with this technology? Yeah, kids. Children. Children. It's been suggested to me that left-handed gay men are particularly good at it.

Yeah, that certainly seems to be the case that there is a larger distribution of the predisposition among children and gay men for whatever reason, the demographic when compared to normal society within the program, that gay men and kids and females are more often seen as having the predisposition for the psionic ability.

I'm again exploring the boundaries of where I can go, and you might say no comment to this, but I'm going to put it to you anyway. I have another source inside the program who has told me that one of the aerospace companies holding this tech at one stage relinquished a craft to the US government, saying that they hadn't been able to successfully reverse engineer it.

And it has been put to me that this was a lie and that they have, in fact, got a fully flying intact reverse-engineered craft. I've heard the very same thing from a very reputable source, so I would believe that's true.

The implications of this are that there's a whole secret program involving potentially energy technologies, anti-gravity technologies that are mind-blowing. Yeah, it's fun, isn't it? It is fun, yeah.

I mean, I guess the message that I'm getting from you is one of kind of optimism. Yeah, I'm very pleased to be at a place where this is becoming fun again. You know, when I started this journey 30 years ago as a 17-year-old kid, as I shared with you, my intentions were very simple and clear.

I wanted to jump out of airplanes, kill bad guys, and make my grandparents proud. Somewhere along the way, things got very confusing and very complex. We're now at a point where things are very simple for me again, and I see clearly what I want to do with the rest of my life, and I have my why.

And fortunately, because of my experience, I have the how. I have the capability, and we, over the last two years while we've been hiding out, we've been working to find a way to bring this operation out of the shadows and into an open environment where we could build a public-private partnership with full transparency and explore all of these things that have been explored in secret in a way that we can start from scratch.

But we may be 60, 70 years behind what everyone calls a legacy program, but I'm telling you we're going to catch up very quickly. And the reason it's going to work is because we have all of the people like me that have been working there.

Um, I call it the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but we have been recruiting guys from within the program and women, um, and those who are associated with the program, um, in a very open way and have formed and are forming a new team in coordination with government agencies.

The two we would want the most coordination with are coming on board with us, and we also have the funding through venture capital. Can you name those agencies? Um, not at this time, but I hope to very soon.

You know, we have some really important meetings next week, and I hope that after that time, I'm going to need to ask permission out of just good faith with those folks to see how much they want to be. I guess a lot of people watching this might be worried that you're getting sucked into, say, an intelligence agency or a military agency that is going to try and shut you down.

Yeah, well, um, or it could be where we're just the—we're just the legacy program 2.0, and this all goes underground again. I'm giving you my promise right now. Um, our organization is called Skywatcher. Um, we are part of what has been defined as the Explorers Club, and it is full of people who have the best intentions in mind, and there's going to be accountability with her.

There's not going to be transparency, and I know that sounds like a lot coming—or sounds like it could be a load coming from a guy like me with my background. But, you know, I'm not going to be able to prove it to you in this conversation, but I'll say pay attention, and I'll paraphrase a quote from the book of Matthew and say you will know them by their fruits.

So stand by and judge us for our fruits. You've been really touched, haven't you, by this experience? It's touched you spiritually? Yes, it has.

There was a gathering at Esalen, okay, and a lot of very high-net-worth individuals who were interested in the suppression of non-human intelligence attended. What happened?

I think something epic happened. I think something happened that if it was fully documented and understood would go in the history books. Um, I had a feeling last week that that was historical. It felt absolutely historic.

What you had was a combination of the world's leading, like, most frontier scientists. You had people that were top experts in all their fields, and then you had a variety of fields that was outrageous. We had neurosurgeons, doctors and neurosurgeons, we had physicists, we had high-worth individuals in the billions, um, that were extremely open-minded and had a frontier attitude towards all this.

We had mystics; we had psychic kids. We had children from Germany that could harness and, um, actually showcase their ability to perform telekinesis, their ability to, uh, psychically see things with their mind and were able to prove that to all of us.

We also deployed some of our psionic assets, um, that we've used and are part of our new team with Skywatcher, and we summoned UAP. Um, we had the UAP come and fly around and visit and hang out with us and take off, and I have to say I saw it too.

Yeah, and it was profound. It's a spiritual experience, and what you're trying to do now is replicate in the private sphere what's being suppressed in the public sphere?

Yeah, you know, we're not looking back. You know, we could—we can leave the bad actors of the past; we can leave them with their lies. We have no need for that. We're looking forward.

I am absolutely confident that we are capable of generating the type of high-quality sensor data and photography and film evidence that everyone is wanting. I'm also confident that, um, if we continue on the path with our government agencies, that we're going to get a craft; we're going to get material in hand.

I know it's possible; it's just a matter of working out the logistics. I'm just—I'm just exploring this with you. The implications are that this one part of the black world of the US government that is being hidden from Congress, hidden from some presidents, I know, yeah, working on retrieved alien non-human technology.

Yeah, it's being kept from the knowledge of the American public, and yet they're being funded with taxpayer dollars, billions of taxpayer dollars, if you believe it. Yeah, what do you think of that?

Well, it doesn't sound right, does it? But you could probably tell that same story around a number of other things that have nothing to do with aliens, and unfortunately, that's the government and the world we live in.

But the exciting thing is—the thing I find breathtaking from what you're saying is you're saying, as somebody who's come from that black world, yeah, screw the secrecy.

I want to say it a little differently. Um, the US—the monopoly the US government has on the subject matter is not respected by the non-human intelligence spirits. Um, again, the skies are not classified, and your conscience cannot be redacted.

And ultimately, why I feel safe and why I feel optimistic about the future is I know that the NHI is guiding us that way. Can you explain how it is that you're not authorized to do this interview, but you ended up applying for DOU?

I think our audience might be confused; they might think that this is somehow an authorized interview and that there are people in the Defense Department pulling the strings, telling you what to say, and that this is some kind of disinformation operation.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, but you know, for what it's worth, I can tell you that's not the case. I mean, the DOU process is very interesting. Um, it's way more casual, especially on the onset, than you might think, um, when you take into account the ramifications for violating the mandates that come out of it and the subject matter that it's supposedly protecting.

But, um, you know, they get put in a really tough spot, um, and this is part of something we aimed to take advantage of, I guess you could say, by interrogating the DOU system. Um, one of the things I haven't shared yet is in our effort to find out who we were looking for, one of the ways we came up with on how to do that was to query for who might want to redact statements we intended to go public with through DOU.

So you—I think a fictionalized account of some of your experiences to DOU? Yeah, so, um, any author or anybody that's going to be contributing to an author to put something in writing or to share it orally like this, um, has to go through the DOU process if you ever held a security clearance, um, working for a government agency in the subject matter that you are intending to go public on.

So right off the bat, there's a tell right there. The fact that I had to go through DOU tells you I had a security clearance on the subject matter right there. So there's their first failure of poker face, um, and that's exactly what we set out to exploit.

And so we came up with a reconnaissance mission. The reconnaissance mission looked like this: we were going to write a detailed manuscript as fiction through a ghostwriter. Um, when we completed that, it was about 120,000 words manuscript.

We broke that manuscript into actual sections that we called episodes, um, because DOU wants you to complete or submit the entire document. We submitted our first 20,000 words, our first, um, 10,000 words, which was 20 pages.

Um, and within that first chunk of information, we included four types of information, um, and that information's purpose, again, was to inform us as to what they considered sensitive and the SMEs, which stands for subject matter experts, um, that they were outsourcing the information to.

Because what they do in the DOU process is they send it out to all of the agencies that might be affected by you going public on something, even in a fictionalized manuscript, and they say to them, is there anything in here that needs to be redacted to protect national security? That's correct.

And it could be—you could present it to them as fact or fiction; it doesn't matter the context. But more importantly, if it's protecting national security and it's redacted, it has to be a legally authorized program, doesn't it? Yes, it does.

So this is what we used to set up our four categories of information that I want to get through with you. Category one, we included in that manuscript information we knew was classified that we were privy to, um, and we knew that was patently classified on a very high level.

Information category number two was information that was classified, but we knew only existed within the hearts and minds of the operators that were at the fingertips of that operation.

Um, information category number three was information that was classified, but you may be surprised to learn was already in the public domain and open source because of the nature of the internet. There are things that the DOD and its partners would say that shouldn't be out there, but it is anyway, so we put some of that in there.

And then we had our fourth category of information, which was the most fun, which was where we took a little liberty and went fishing. We took our information that we knew was compartmentalized, connected it with other information that were these fact islands we were aware of because of our—I won't say how—and then we took our own creative liberty at connecting those two dots through a particular pathway as to what why that might exist and filled that space with other fictional classified information.

What happened? Six months later, it took six months. Uh, we came back with seven pages of redactions of all four categories. Wow. So one, that confirms there is a classified program relating to this information.

Wow. Now, there was a counterplay here. So although that was informative, I have to tell you when they came back, our situation was now that reconnaissance mission, having been fruitful, was now going to inform how we went back and edited.

Remember, this was the first 20 pages of a multi-page—I would say the first 10,000 words of a 120,000-word manuscript. We were then going to take that information and write around it in order to extract more intel through the DOU process.

So you were running a counter-counter surveillance operation against the very organizations? That's a red team's best tool right there. You would do OPFOR, opposition. You play three, four, five-dimensional chess, so you play multi-dimensional chess.

So even though they know you and your team were thinking about publishing something, they don't know that you're speaking publicly on national television about the legacy program? That's a good question. No, they don't.

But it doesn't mean I was limited to do that because I have to tell you about the counterplay. So there is a—although they have no poker face, they're in a really tough spot because not redacting information means that if they just—if they just chose, hey, this is sensitive, but we're not going to redact it, well now, obviously, that makes it into the public domain.

Um, but by redacting it, they prove that it's sensitive, so they have no idea as to how you acquired the information. They know based on your security clearance and your background because it had to be submitted under my official name and social security number and my record in order to get triggered.

And that's how they know what SMEs to send it to. The SMEs who I worked for squashed all kinds of stuff; then it went to one of the other SMEs I work for; they squashed their stuff, and it came back with all these squashing in the form of black ink.

Now let me keep going because the counterplay for them would have been to let certain information go so that it could be formally categorized as not sensitive. And the fictional liberty taken by an author of a fictional book, um, so they could do that; they could have done that.

Um, but we didn't really see that. What they did do, however, was they got a sense—they got onto us. They figured out what we were doing, and they said, stop. You cannot submit anything else; you have to submit the whole manuscript.

And we told them, well, that is the whole book. We're going to release this like episodes of a special. This is the whole season, but we're going to release it in episodes. So we have to send it to you 10,000 words at a time because that's how it's going to be released.

And they were kind of caught there, and they didn't quite know how to respond. So, um, I can tell you that since then—and this was a 2000—correction, this was 2012, I think, believe in January when we first submitted the manuscript, um, and they haven't gotten back to us on the rest of it; it's still sitting there.

Do you think that there are people in private aerospace who think that it's inevitable that eventually the story is? Yeah, I know there are, and we have a lot of people in private aerospace that are part of our Skywatcher program that have come on our side, just echoing the point that you made earlier that the military-industrial complex is not one big monolithic organization that says the same view thing and has the same view.

There are people I know inside the military, inside the intelligence community, and you've been one of them who basically think it's implausible to try and keep this secret, and moreover that the public has a right to know.

Yeah, it's going to come out; it's all coming out. It's coming out probably like this year. So you think yourself the public has a right to know this information? Not all of it, no.

What sort of things need to be protected, do you think? Let's—um, anything that affects national security. Like, we have to be careful of what we wish for. Like, we don't know what we don't know. Even me, I don't know what I don't know.

And if we're at the point where we have so little trust in our government that we're just going to—there's a reason it's called catastrophic disclosure. Catastrophic is not good for those calling for heads any more than it's good for those whose heads are being called for.

Like, we as a public do not want catastrophic disclosure. We—what we need, again, there's a few bad apples. We need to maintain our institutions; we don't get rid of them. We need to find a way to get the right people promoted to positions of power and trust, and we already have that.

It's called the Gang of Eight in Congress; they're a big part of that right now. It's not functioning that way, but we're not going to change—we can't change the structure. We need to get the right people into power, into positions, start looking into it.

Um, and again, you don't need to rely on the government; it's already there. Like, what we need to know is this: we need to know that we're not alone. We need to know that there's a profound spiritual component to our existence, and that's just for the sake of our own fellowship as creatures sharing this planet.

But also, there's an extreme amount of utility in our ability that has been suppressed forever. So if we could learn how to use that, um, and also for those that are keeping the secrets, keeping it secret is a bad way to try and study something.

We need an open source; we need all hands on deck, all brains on deck, all consciousness on deck in order to find out how we can exploit this in the best of ways in order to come up with things like zero-point energy, let's say.

Um, until we do so, we're going to be stuck with the same problem we have been for all of civilization, and that's a battling for limited resources. And if we could solve that problem by something that might come out of disclosure, that would be something I say should be disclosed.

Things relative to national security? No, and we can't trust ourselves. We can't say, give us all of it because we don't trust you. We have to put trustworthy people in position and let them make that decision.

Okay, let me ask you this way then. Do you think the public have the right to know that we are not alone? Yes, I'll say yes to that.

And the thing I find shocking, though, is that the most beautiful thing that you've described to me, the most exciting thing, is what I think our audience is going to have the biggest trouble with, is believing the idea that human beings have the capacity to do things with their minds that have been suppressed.

Yeah, I just kind of smile because that makes it more entertaining for me because they're going to be shocked. But you know what? I think—I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think there's more people that believe it; they're just not talking about it.

And I can tell you for a fact, even within our world of hardened operators at the highest level, guys that are still in, behind closed doors, we all know it's true, and we have the most emotional talks like we're part of Oprah's Book Club.

I mean, it's true, and right now we're in a moment where the truth is being obscured and twisted, but the truth, I'll tell you, is our weapon. And when we're willing to accept the truth, no matter how profound or earth-shaking, is when we move into a position of power, and it's going to liberate this subject.

And you know what? How fun would it be if we're right? I'm not telling you it'd be different if the government and what was being hid behind the subject matter was the fact that there was an asteroid on course for Earth that we—there is no way we could redirect it or there's no way we could defend against it, and we were all going to die in the year 2020X or whatever it is.

That's not what's being hidden. What's being hidden here is something extremely positive, and, um, it's something we've all hoped for. It's the one thing we've all looked for in all of our religions that we celebrate across the world.

It's the one thing that we want to be true of our religion, and it's the one thing that—the one common thread amongst all religions. And so that's what's being hidden, and that's what we're going to find out, and you can't bottle it up.

The implications of what you're saying also are that potentially there is some kind of capacity to draw incredible amounts of energy from—seen it, the quantum vac? I've seen it. You've seen it? I've seen it.

There's also obviously the capacity to use propulsion systems that are far beyond what we're describing. Yeah, that seems to be the case as well. Anti-gravity? Anti-gravity, they know about it. Anti-gravity, zero-point energy, those secrets are being suppressed from our knowledge.

I've seen demonstrations recently that, again, proves that the government doesn't have a monopoly on this. They have—while they have—we know that they have been working on it, they've seemed to be doing a good job in keeping others from making their own independent progress, but that time is changing.

Independent progress is happening right now, and it's coming out. That's why I'm so confident we don't need to rely on their body of lack of evidence, let's say. We don't need to rely on that. Like, it's here.

Like, the shift has already happened. There's people in Silicon Valley and around the world that are so financially independent, so intellectually independent, and yes, so emotionally and psionically independent that they don't need the government to tell us those things.

But we still have to work through that. Do you think the aliens, the non-human intelligence, wants us, humanity, to know about their existence? Yeah, I do believe that. That's the message that we're getting.

So you felt that yourself? Connect message? And there are others that I know of that are being sent that message directly, and they are extremely confident.

So Jake, in early October, you made the decision, on the invitation of the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence, to go to Congress and give evidence? Yes, I did. How was that day?

Um, it was great. It was, uh, it was nice to finally get it done, and it seemed like by the time I went, I held out so long that, uh, by the time I got there, a lot of people had already done the heavy lifting, like Dave and others.

And so they were like, okay, we know, we don't know, and we know that we haven't proven to be the most, um, we—they know that they don't have—they can't offer whistleblowers the protection we know they need, which was my primary objection the entire time, is that they offer protection.

They have no way of providing it. They've got no enforcement power. They've got no enforcement; they can't protect me. Um, and so things had certainly changed. What was the reception in the room? What kind of comments did you hear?

Well, for the most part, it was fantastic. You know, there was eight or nine people. Um, I'm not going to say versus me, but it was a one-v-nine situation where it was me, and then I had at times 10 people. A few had to come and go 'cause we went for four and a half hours, but, um, it was all ears; it was listening.

David Grusch and Commander David Fravor gave evidence to Congress along with Ryan Graves, the two F18 pilots, sat with David Grusch and gave evidence to Congress last year under oath, and they insisted on doing it under oath to emphasize the veracity, the truthfulness of what they were saying.

If you were asked, would you be prepared to do the same? 100%. And I told them that, uh, I told Congress during our time in the skiff. Yeah, what impact do you think you had on the people listening in the room at the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence?

Well, we laughed; we cried; we had a lot of serious talk. So if anything, I would think I came across sincere. Um, keep in mind we were scheduled for a two-hour block; we went four and a half, so they were definitely engaged.

They seemed like they were sincere in their effort to find out what's going on. Why hasn't somebody like you with firsthand knowledge of the program come forward so definitively before? That's a good question, and that's what I kept waiting for more to come forward.

Um, I feel uniquely qualified to come forward at this time because I know we have this private venture coming, and I've already begun negotiating with those government agencies who I thought may have come after me, let's say, um, if they had ill will, and it's been proven to me that they don't.

So there are government agencies that don't know about this program that are aware of the obvious illegality of parts of it? Yeah, I don't know if it's that. It's every department has within it a responsibility to deal with in the sky flying around that we don't know what it is.

I mean, just start the FAA, for example, which is Ryan Graves's particular case. He's trying to advance is that, you know, there is a safety of flight here; there is an aircraft separation issue, a collision avoidance issue in the air. If there are things flying around in the sky and the FAA doesn't have a way of managing that, um, or producing safety reports on it, we've got a big problem.

And the problem gets much bigger from there. And so while we like to speak of the government as the government, it is not one big cohesive machine that works together.

And so every department, like the FBI, like the Department of Homeland Security, like Border Patrol, um, Department of Defense, you know, they have their own niche responsibilities in order to make sure things in the sky aren't our adversaries, aren't carrying payloads, aren't causing safety of flight issues.

And yeah, they also have a responsibility to figure out whether or not aliens are visiting the planet, and you think they are? Yeah, I do. So the truth is out; the truth has been out for a long time.

What would you like to see happen? Like, what's your dream? You've seen this technology; you've felt the sincerity of the intelligence that you were engaging with. What would you dream of? What's your aspiration for the future?

You know, what would be really cool is to be driving down the highway, look up, and see a billboard advertisement for the United States Air Force recruiting kids into a career field for UAP research and study for psionic exploration for piloting technology to other galaxies.

Like, that would tell me we've arrived, and we are at a place where clearly the public and the government are working together because the suppression of this secret—it's not just suppressing technology and weapons, which I can—you know, as much as I don't like the idea of it, I can understand why somebody might have made the decision to do that.

It's suppressing spiritual knowledge that you think the public's got a right to know? Well, and here's where I would say we need to respect the fact that we don't know what we don't know. Imagine weaponizing consciousness.

We don't think of—in this story we're telling, we're assuming consciousness is the good, benevolent, harmless thing that should be disclosed. Everything we've researched and understood, imagine if it is the case that consciousness could be weaponized and that people like the president of the United States could be under mind control.

That's a huge problem. And imagine if someone could independently develop—we already see this problem with drones. We are so out of control with the drone issue that drones can fly around with a payload and cause mass casualties because we don't have it under control.

The FAA doesn't—we just, unfortunately, don't have the CFRs, the code of federal regulations, and the people hired to deal with something like drones. Imagine if we had to manage and police the benevolent use or the weaponization of consciousness; that could be a really big problem.

Have you done any operations yourself, retrievals or operations involving the legacy program in Arizona? No. Have you seen the rubber duck video, which was shot by Border Patrol from a surveillance plane over parts of the Arizona desert?

Yes. Do you know anything about that object? I don't; I don't know anything about it. Are you aware of any underground bases? Yes. Have you visited any? Yes.

So they exist? They do. Can you tell me anymore? No. Ross, you can't blame me for trying. No, I don't blame you. Do you know anything about the Phoenix Lights?

And I'm very—yeah, I'm familiar with that story. Uh, I remember hearing about it when I was a kid and going, oh, you know, that's interesting, but not believing it. But now knowing what I know, it seems very clear to me that that was a legitimate non-human intelligence that had flown some sort of craft over Phoenix.

Which raises the question, all over the United States right now, US Air Force bases are being buzzed by what they call drones. Yeah, and funnily enough, nobody's seen one of these and been able to recover one because so-called electromagnetic pulse weapons don't work on these objects, whatever they are.

Not all UAP respond to the same weapon systems. It raises the question, is the phenomenon making it so more overt, do you think? Is it trying to wake us up? It certainly is to me in my experience, but you know, it's hard to say.

I don't know how to look at that from a completely objective—I don't know how much it's shown itself over the decades and centuries because a lot of people watching this, sad to say, you're pushing them up against a barrier of doubt, indecision, stigma, and taboo that's been attached to this subject for 80 years.

A lot of people aren't going to believe this. What do you say to those people? Um, I'm not here to make anyone believe anything. It's exhausting. Like, either you're going to get it or you're not going to get it.

Like, we have—we, in our own capacity, we've operated Skywatcher already. Me and my team, on the very first outing, summoned a white egg in broad daylight. And while I have pictures of it, I'm happy to share with you, we calculated this object to be traveling, depending upon the slant range distance, uh, anywhere between 3,000 and 11,000 miles per hour based on the size.

We're still analyzing the data we collected from the range, and we're happy to show that to you. Um, and so what else could that be? There’s this other way of looking at this. Like, we can put all this information before you, and you could say it's not this, it's not this, it's not this.

We're at a point now where the amount of information is so overwhelming, the probability that any alternate explanation for its existence is there is so much less than the probability that what I'm telling you is exactly what is going on.

You want this investigated, don't you? Yeah, I want to—I want to do the investigating; that's what we're doing. I want to inv—would you quite like to see, as a result of this story, would you like to see yourself questioned and held to account for evidence and tested your allegations?

Yeah, um, we have an opportunity right now to work with the US government and as a private partner. Um, the place where we operate right now, we've been successful before in conducting our whole operation, all five phases of it.

Um, the US government has shown an interest; they know we're capable; they know what we've pulled out of the sky. It's consistent with the egg and everything else I've told you about, um, and what they're offering to do now is give us exclusive use access to facilities, um, because they don't know what's going on.

Departments—there are departments within the broader branches of the three-letter agencies that aren't being read into what other sections are, so they want us to help. And because we're one of the few groups of people that have experience, and we provide them a path to redemption.

So there's a real message here from you of incredible optimism about what this could represent? Yeah, this is why I know disclosure is coming, and guess what? It's going to come out in the most beautiful way.

I believe the United States government in the next 12 months is going to use me and my team as a peaceful, non-judgmental path forward to disclosure. They're going to help us conduct our operations and gather evidence in order to present this subject matter to the public so that these questions can be answered once and for all.

And all the questions I'm talking about: what do the craft look like? How do they operate? Who is operating them? How are they being operated? And where are they coming from? We should be able to answer those questions probably entirely in the next 12 months.

Can I put to you there is a dark state? There are people who don't have good intentions who want this secret to remain suppressed, aren't there? It seems that way, yeah. Are they going to win? No, they're not going to win.

They're not going to win. We've passed a tipping point. They, like I said, when you're talking about these people, they aren't organized. Um, you become a dark person by having—by being filled with more vice than virtue. Virtuous people win; people full of vice, they lose.

And they're dividing amongst themselves; they're on a sinking ship. All of the good people that are in these organizations realize they're in a position they need to make a decision as to which side they're on.

And despite having all this leverage and threat that they have, that being held against them, they're making the decision to move forward. Are there people inside the program who you know will come forward when you speak up? Yes.

I know I'm going to serve as a huge catalyst, and that's going to be an exciting day. The things I'm talking about are going to be—you know, Dave did a great job of paving a path. I'm going to come along and try and improve upon that path and widen the road.

I expect the next, uh, people that are—the next groups of folks are going to be coming down this path are going to blow it wide open. Do you worry for your safety, for your family's safety? No, I don't.

I don't; I think I'm being protected, believe it or not, by the NHI. And also, I don't put up with harassment. I don't believe in the boogeyman; I am the boogeyman. You know how to help yourself? Yes, yep.

So if somebody comes after you, they'd better watch out? It'd probably be the worst decision they ever made in their life. I intend to make it that way. Clearly, at the heart of all of this, there's been an 80-year cover-up where we've all, outside in the normal world, been told that this is nonsense; aliens aren't real; telepathy is nonsense.

How do you deal with that? How do we reverse decades of stigma and taboo? You inform yourself. Why are we relying on these people that have been keeping the secrets to let us in on the secret?

Why don't we make their secrets obsolete by capturing the evidence ourselves and becoming all firsthand experiencers of the phenomenon and the technology? And because that's possible, and from what you're saying, Jake, Baba, that's a beautiful experience.

Yeah, the most beautiful experience that—I add in my life. Would you like to see your kids one day doing that work? My kids already are, believe it or not.