Tommy Robinson's politics in his own words & stories: an interview with Bob of Speakers Corner!

Tommy, thank you so much. This has been a long time in coming. Peace be with you, brother.

It's a pleasure, mate. It's a pleasure.

Thank you. Um and and thank you so much for packing us into your very tight diary and and attending our put together studio.

No problem.

Um so, as as I said off camera, the point of this interview is is we're just landscaping your political beliefs. That is the point.

Interesting.

That Yeah, that's it. just just landscaping your political beliefs. Um there's, you know, it's not about your biography. It's not even about your conversion. It's just talking about your political outlook. And the aim of this interview is to put to rest um any sort of dispute about what you stand for.

Okay?

To get it all on record so that both your enemies, and we know sadly you've got lots of enemies, and your allies can all use it as a reference point of saying, "Well, this is actually what he believes because he said it here. And and the aim is to just try and explore that political landscape through different kinds of questions.

Y

um and that's the aim.

Cool.

Ready to begin?

I'm ready, mate.

Okay. Let's start off just by an opening question. Can you name me any any political figures or historical figures, cultural figures, um who sort of stand out to you as personal heroes?

For me, Gilders.

Geers.

Gilders. And And what is it about Geild that that that he appeals? In fact, I'd say Donald Trump, I'd say Elon Musk. I I'll say them for different reasons, but I'll say Gilders because he has not budged on his truth.

His truth that Islam, that Muhammad's a problem, that the Quran's a problem, he's never watered it now.

Yeah.

Even when he's got close to power and just been in power, still never watered it now. Now what we see with some populist parties or some groups as they get closer to power we're seeing now with Nigel Fraj they start weakening their message becoming more mainstream.

Um G and also I went to meet G at Parliament and he has I think probably a group of 20 odd men that have to protect him to shut roads. He can't live a normal day.

I've just come down here now. Yeah. I don't like people keep going on about to me about security. I feel like if I had to live under 24-hour protection, my life's over. That's how I'd feel. I like my freedom. I don't want to be um I've had incidents because of that and I'm in risk because of that. But to meet GE,

he can't just go for a walk. He can't just go to the beach. They have to plan things. It's like a presidential visit.

Yeah.

That's what he's living under. And he's living under that because he wants to talk truthfully and honestly in his own country about Islam. M

so I absolutely respect him, admire him and I guess he's inspired me from the start of my activism because I watched him and thought well if he can do it then I can do it as as I watched from the start and I knew there were threats against him when he made the film Fitner. There was um fatwars from Islamic countries. He had to be killed. He was banned from this country. He faced prosecution. In fact 2010 I flew out about 15 of us know we went on a ferry to support him. He was facing prosecutions. Remember Ge faced what we've all faced. He faced attack, relentless smears, campaigns and lawfare. And he was in court for labeling Moroccans as scum or problems or something like that. He was in court for hate speech and all these things. And now he's winning the election. So I am inspired by him. I'm inspired by Donald Trump. I respect Donald Trump and respect Elon Musk because they didn't have to do this. They made it. Donald Trump was the American dream.

The Democrats loved him. The Republicans loved him. As soon as he stepped into this, he's divide. He's then got half the country, well, not half, but nearly half the country who hate him. And then he's faced the onslaught and the hate from the media and the and the attacks and the assassination attempts. He could have carried on with his billionaire life, just living his life. But he didn't because he saw something greater than him, and that's the America and the future of America. Same with Elon Musk. He didn't have to step into BX. He could have just allowed free speech to be attacked. He was would have continued to thrive and go on to be the richest man in the world and send rockets up to Mars. But I don't think Elon will be remembered for sending I keep saying this. I don't think in the future when we look back at Elon Musk, he's not going to be remembered for sending rockets to Mars. He's going to be remembered for saving freedom of speech.

So that's three figures that I absolutely admire and respect. and the when when you sort of triangulate their politics, um I think it would probably be fair to say that they are on the solid right of politics, um possibly close to the edge of alt-right politics, maybe with Gilders.

Well, how they're labeled, I don't know. I don't actually really know

what G's other policies are other than them against Islam.

I don't actually know what where what his policies are. I thought he was pretty liberal. Well, this is the this is the thing is what what I'm I'm interesting to interested to to understand is because it seems to me the thing that you admire about these men is that they've got character, that they've got courage, that they're willing to lay down their lives for a bigger cause. So, it's more like a kind of like in in many ways the way that you inspire lots of men um by people note your courage and they're inspired by the fact that

you stand up for what you believe. uh you're willing to be penalized for what you believe, but you keep going anyway. And and it seems that that's where your admiration is.

That's where my admiration comes from. Yeah. I'm not talking about all of their politics because I don't know all of those politics.

Where where would you say on the political spectrum if you from from alt-right to alt left and everything in between?

Where I sit where you where do you think where would you place yourself?

I done one of those tests. Yeah.

Um I was bang in the center.

Bang in the center.

Bang in the center. See, I think most people

take things from the left and the right. I think this whole you're far left, you're far right, you're leftwing, you're rightwing, I think it's nonsense

because I think many values will be taken from this side and many values will be taken from that side.

And I also think that up until the age of 25, I didn't care about anything to do with politics. And I think most working-class people were going to think the same.

I wasn't poor enough or rich enough to care or for it to make that much of a difference. And I didn't have an interest. I think 9 million people voted in Karma, but 20 million people didn't vote.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I was one of those 20 million

until I was 25 and then I had a real awakening and a real experience and I guess

um to understand politics and then I understood media and just like I've had an apprenticeship in all of it.

Yeah. Yeah. We've all of us have watched that learning curve

as you've gone on and and learned to articulate yourself. And

when you say in the center, so give us an example of something that you would say you take from say for example I I I want small government want them to leave us alone.

Just leave us alone.

I want small government. But now I was talking about Vauxhall. Vauxhall left Luton.

I don't think they should have been able to leave Luton.

I don't I don't think they should have been allowed to to take the plant from Luton to a foreign country to bring that which is capitalism.

Yeah.

So, but I think no, they should have been allowed to do that. So when I was talking to them, I said, "No, no, what?" So they can make more billions. Yeah. No, they've destroyed my town. Yeah. And I think they should have been forced to keep those jobs in my town. So

penalized for leaving

or penalized for leaving like like it's it's what Trump done when he come in.

But when I talked about that, someone said, "Well, that's leftwing." You're like, when I was talk, they said, "So I don't know. I believe in I believe in free speech and I believe in small government." And when it comes to left or right, I'd say most my values are liberal. I'm pretty liberal.

I don't really care.

Uh, live your life. Do what you want to do. Yeah.

Yeah. I I mean, I have I have I I'll tell you maybe more of my thoughts of how I see you um a bit later on in the interview.

Um but in in terms of in terms of the question of of um our identity, because that's obviously at the very core or at least it appears to be from my perspective at the very core of how you go about your politics. What what for you is it that makes a nation? What what is the nation and and and and how is it constituted?

Culture, community, language, um history, loyalty, borders, um and I think all of those things have been under attack and I think they've all been broken. M

I think that I've looked at Luton. I'm just again I have to just bring it back to my hometown. Yeah. And I know that bloke who does the funny voice over me who takes the piss.

Yeah.

He's going to do that. Every time I say Luton I think of him doing it. But I um I I think that So I'm in Luton. I'm in my hometown and as migration has come in. It's broke our community. Do you know there was a boy called Tom Costello.

Tom if you're watching this I'm still pissed off. Tom Costello. He done a documentary called Proud and Prejudice. Channel 4 documentary. Now, when they come to meet me, I said, "Tom, I'm going to let [snorts] you in." Yeah. They said, "We want to film with you for a year. We expect we just want to get to know you." Yeah. So, I said, "Come into my life."

And I brought him into my life. I invited him to my wedding. Yeah. And I just said, "This is an open door." So, when went first time, we went up to the local pub and we met everyone. Went in the shop, the shopkeepers hugging us. Everywhere we went, everyone knew everyone. And as we sat down back at the pub, he said, "I've never experienced this." I said, "What?" He goes, "You all know each other."

I mean, everyone here knows each other. Said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, I went to private school. I didn't hang around on the estate. I then went to university. Then I've moved to this city for my job. I don't know anyone." And I said, "Okay, well, do you get it now?" So, this is our community. So if someone's hurt in this community, if a girl's attacked, a girl's raped, or something happens, we all feel it because that's our this is like our broader family.

Yeah.

But he'd never experienced that. And I think that's most politicians. Yeah. They don't get it because they haven't got that close-knit tight community now at this time. And even with Tom Castello, I I I then rang up some Pakistani boys that I went to school with. I said, "Yes, boys. Blah, come down." I said, "We're at the Burden Bush, which was a pub in Bushme. They've pulled up, got in the car, said, "This is my posh cousin from out of town." He sat in the car for an hour. We were having a catch up with these lads. They got out. I said, "That's for your benefit, Tom." So, you can see I don't hate every Pakistani or Muslim. Yeah. They're my mates.

I went to school with them that we we have relationships. And as he went around that, he met such a diverse group of people. Yeah.

From all of my friends cuz I'm from Luton Town. And he saw all of this. And he went on and he made his documentary. What they didn't tell me is Proud and Prejudice. It was me versus the main Islamic radical in my hometown. So, they were playing us against each other. So, they're filming with me and they were filming with him, but they didn't let him know and they didn't let me know. And crazily during the filming, he punches me through a car window.

So, it comes together on the documentary, but um but that I didn't know any of that till the end. But as when we're talking about community, he'd never experienced that. Now that's changed cuz as mass migrations come into Luton and all the problems that come with it, everyone's started leaving and moving. So that same where you'd walk down the shops and you know every person that's not there now.

Yeah.

In those estates, in those communities,

it's been broken.

Yeah. But what you then see and and growing up in Luton, we didn't have the reason why all of our activism started really was after the soldier soldiers homecoming parade, they then banned St. George's Day. Now, we used to mobilize every St. George's Day as young English lads in Lugan. It was our day that we'd all come together, football lads, really, but we'd come together, we'd hit the back streets of the town and it'd be a great day out. We And we done our own St. George's festival. We got a horse. We used to We'd have a English band and a reggae band

for the diversity of the crowd. Yeah. But we'd have our St. George's Day. And they banned it that year. And when they banned it that year, it was after Souls Home Parade. They said racial tensions are rising in the town. Their religious tensions were rising in the town. So they banned the St. George's Day, which was what really triggered me into no you're not. We'll do now we're doing a march at the same time. So that was partly it. But we have all of our identity days have been and anything that focuses on identity even at the schools they don't encourage it. Nothing's encouraged now. So as I've I've then left Luton to move to the outskirts of Luton. And if you got Luton here around Luton, all these villages and these little small towns have all doubled in size. They built a new town called Wixoms, which people call Little Luton. When you drive through the village that my mum's in, they have Morris dancers now on Boxing Day. Yeah.

Every one of those people have fled Luton. And the focus on there are days that are focused on identity is huge.

Yeah.

St. George's Day is massive in the villages. Yeah. Because people have realized how important these things are for identity. And I think the reason why the English Defense League was such a success, some people may not see as a success, they couldn't stop it until I left. They could not stop that group. They tried everything. They couldn't stop it because it gave back identity.

It gave those people back the community. I I feel I pick up a tension between the eviscerating effects of globalization and or the dilution effects of globalization versus a a response to that in terms of the reaffirmation of the local, the reaffirmation of of that which is, you know, historical. And and and would it be fair to to sort of prism your you know what how would you see the state's role in sort of safeguarding locality, history, culture, borders versus how our current state is operating in the sense of no borders, no culture, a neutral a neutral state that that seeks simply to organize the balance sheet. So

I think that in America the children all swear allegiance to the stars and stripes of the flag of the United States which helps encourage the minorities that have gone there and the other the diversity that's gone to that country to feel American. We welcomed all these other cultures in and told them all cultures are equal. You can create your own ghetto. You we should have had every school should be flying the Union flag. Every child should be encouraged to be British. Every migrant that's come here. My mom come here from Ireland. Yeah. But most of my mates, we're all all in Luton. Most of them are sons of migrants, sons of immigrants. Yeah. But they're, and I have this off the ethnationalists. Yeah. They get upset. My mates who are black lads, they're English lads,

right? They might not be ethnicity English, but to them they're English.

Yeah.

They're English. And their children and their children, say you go down six generations, at what point? They love England. Yeah. So I don't I've never seen And Luton's football group has always been black and white. So, I've never really seen the color element to it. I've never seen it. I just see we're all English lads.

So, for you, is it is it do you see do do you see an alternative to mult I'm I'm taking a guess that you're against liberal multiculturalism as is. And if you are, please correct me if I'm wrong,

but if you are, what what alternative are you looking for? So I always I believe cuz I always sort of

when David Cameron said multiculturalism was failed. It was the day before our Luton demonstration in England. I remember it cuz I think it was a nod to the English fence league. He come out and made a big statement. We had our biggest ever rally. It was called the Luton Homecoming. 10,000 coming into Luton.

Tensions were high. Everything we were talking about was hitting the newspapers worldwide. People were talking about this movement, the English Defense League. He came out and said multiculturalism failed. Um, Angela Merkel said multiculturalism failed for me growing up in Luton, Islam failed. So I used to think it was weak and cowardly to blame all the other cultures and all the other migrant backgrounds, say Italians, say Bulgarians, say say Irish, say St. Lucian, say Jamaicans, say Indians. I don't really in my line us all up. We haven't failed. Yeah. Not in my experience in my hometown. Now, we don't have total black estates. We have every group and I I used to and I can only talk about my experience. Yeah.

I can only talk about my experience. Every group of black lads is with white lads. There's not that that's every group. Yeah. So, I used to say to journalists when they come to Luton, well, because when journalists come to there's a lot of black people there. I never noticed that because I've grown up there. Yeah. I noticed I'm pro the problem for me is Islam. But when they say there's a um I used to say to journalists, okay, I'll challenge you now. You're in Lion. Go find some Muslims with a non-Muslim. Just go find any that aren't selling them drugs.

Yeah. Go and find any Muslim with a non-Muslim. As in out together friends. You're not going to find it. You're not going to find it. That's just reality. Every group of black boys will be with white boys. every group of white boys will have a black boy with them. Yeah, that's integration. That the divide, there's never been a racial divide. Never. There's never I've never seen it in in my experience growing up in my town. The only divide I've seen is is born by religious lines. Now, as I've gone forward, I I don't think now as I'm sitting here for the future of this country, I don't think white people should become a minority. It's just simple. We shouldn't for the culture, identity, and future of the country. It's wrong just like it would be wrong for Nigerians to become a minority, blacks to become a minority in Nigeria or Japanese become a minority in Japan. Yeah. But per se, my experience in Luton, it wasn't something that really bothered me any of this. Um, I just grew up experiencing what I experienced. So I think that the community and the identity aspect which is what we've now done with United Kingdom. I think that when we brought all those people together and I learned a lot as I said I feel like I done my apprenticeship. I learned where I went wrong where we went wrong as a movement. Um when I first went to Dresden in 2015 remember I'd led the English fencing for 5 years. I traveled to Dresden. I felt so embarrassed

because I went to a demonstration there 30,000 people. They came in orderly, calmly, and they left. And they weren't a bit litter.

And I used to think about our rallies. [laughter] I think Jesus Christ, we were a mob. We were a mob. We were absolutely at times, I wouldn't say out of control. I think it's part of our culture. We are boisterous. We are loud. But at the same time, I watched at that Dresden rally and my mate said this to me. My mate, he become my friend. In fact, I'm going to do a podcast with him soon. So, there was a journalist who latched on to me and spent two years with me. Yeah.

And and he videoed everything. He's got some amazing content. And he was sanctioned by the BBC. But when he went back to the BBC with what he'd found,

they said, "No, you're not making it. He can't look good."

Yeah.

And he he said, "What?" He said, "I'm telling you what I found. This is this is the documentary. Like, this is how it is." And they bought him and paid him that he couldn't use it for three or four years. So he still got all this footage but when he come to me he he said we we had the tower hamlets demonstration which was just lio and we've gone into tow we're trying to get into town hamlets for a long time trying to raise awareness of issues but some I heard someone describe the English defense league as a drinking club with a website a journalist and it made me laugh cuz no part partly partly though it's why it was a success

it gave people fun identity community it was a movement of people that all become friends and family. People had kids together. It was a mass movement. But then say for example at Town Hamlets, my mates, we'll be talking, giving speeches. Half the people ain't even listening. That's the reality. They are now. It's all changed. Half the people there are there for the day out. Half the a section of the people there are there for the fight. A section of the people are there for the cause.

And it was a mixture. And my mate went up to people, this journalist went up to people and said, "What was the best thing about what Tommy said?"

He said, "When you said, "Send them all back." And he said, "These people were saying things that you didn't even say."

Yeah.

They don't even know what you've said.

Yeah.

So, and so when I went to Dresden and I stood and watched 30,000 people, not one of them even turned their head.

They were all there. They knew why they're there. They were there for the right reasons and right cause. So when it come and at that time I wanted there to be a movement similar in the UK. So I tried to get Paul Weston and and Marie Waters and other people. I'd just come out of jail. I'd led the English fence league for four years. My wife was never going to let me go back into leading the street protest movement at that time. So I tried to push other people up the front and then I organized behind the scenes a silent walk and we picked Birmingham airport

because when you march into Luton or you march into Manchester, march into these city centers, it's the reason why our London demonstrations have worked. We're not marching near Muslim communities with what we're doing back then. we were. So with the tensions rising and the left actively trying to wind everyone up and get everyone stoked up, the Muslims will come out and there'll be confrontations in the town. So we looked at Birmingham and thought right Birmingham airport is miles away from any communities we can and as we met there under Bida probably a thousand 2,000 people turned up and we had a silent walk and the Birmingham police officer who's worked worked with us as a liazison officer for the whole of the English fence league as everyone walked silently in total silence he said that he said today was the most powerful thing you've done

in my eyes

because and it used to be frustrating so I'm going to go back through this two years of footage because I remember Lee Riby peace demonstration after he was killed. And I remember my frustrations because such important issues and I remember then this lad interviewed me afterwards and it's like people were throwing bottles at police.

We've got such an important message but all everyone's talking about is bottles hitting police.

Yeah.

They said it's just and I was constantly battling the cause, the message, but the reason why the EDL was so strong was because of identity. M people had EDL tattoos all over them. It gave them back what they've lost. And I think United the Kingdom. So, as I said, I learned how to stop the infiltration with masks, what not to do, how to behave, grew up a lot, took it more seriously when we're looking at the United Kingdom movement. And this is where Christianity comes in for me.

I'll question you on that later.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because I thank Okay. So with United the Kingdom, many of these people have had their communities broken. They haven't they don't feel part of something. They don't have that sense of pride. They don't feel they've been able to celebrate that identity and be proud of that identity. And then on that day, so I know by everyone who I've spoke to who comes, anyone watching this will know they felt it that day.

They felt part they felt that brotherhood, that camaraderie, that that family feeling which we should feel. And I felt it in Poland. I felt it when I went to Poland. I remember standing at the front and I I remember standing at the front of the Poland demonstration, quarter of a million, 2015. And I remember the hairs in the back of my neck stand up and I said, I can just feel power. I can feel something energy from all these people together for a common thing which I guess is what as we get on to Christianity, which is what churches and but I felt something.

Yeah.

In Poland and I never and I felt jealous coming back to UK feeling jealous. I thought we don't have that. And then I had the 30th of June and then on the 27th of July in in Lut Fowl Square, I felt it. I remember standing there thinking, I can feel it. I can feel that same feeling. I can feel it here today with these with these 100,000 people who are all here together to stand in unity for a common cause. So yeah, I think that is community. what we've built now with the United Kingdom, which is what the country needs again, which is what all of us need. Cuz a strong community will resist,

yeah,

what they're throwing at us. A strong family, a strong father will stop the indoctrination or the what's going on within the education system. If you got or the gangs or anything, the strong family, same as strong community. So I think the rebirth of community, the re the importance of community and the importance of of coming together is um an identity. So imagine imagine then that you're in front of your crowd that you you could have a one-to-one seminar with everybody who's coming on theite the kingdom marchers and that entire patriotic movement and you could just outline to them your political vision like if you were just sort of giving them a political vision to hold on to. describe that to for us.

A political vision. What do you mean? The vision of what I want for our country, what I see the future of our country, what I'd love the country to

what what is it? What is it that the what is it that you hope that the movement embodies achieves? What is it that

So, as I said, the movement, the English Defense League embodied and had my identity as in anyone can join because line us all up, my mates. It's it's built off of that. M

now for me you see for me I see a worrying rise coming from the United States of just ethnationalism which I see growing here. Yeah. And I've just I just went to a Luton game this week, first game of the season and I stood with three of my mates there. Black Kev. Do you know why they call him Black Kev? So Black Kev, Sully, and Isaac. Three of the best lads you'll ever meet and none of them are white.

Yeah.

And and and from my point of view, so when people cuz I hear people commenting, I think no, [ __ ] you. like they're my best mates and you know when I was in trouble in the English fence league days in Luton it weren't all white lads I was ringing it weren't all white lads having my back yeah they're my mates I love them

so um the the the United Kingdom movement the same yeah I don't really care gentleman who just stopped me in that shop over there an Indian gentleman who owns owns owns a business here owns the shop didn't charge me for anything showed me love I don't care if you come here as a as a as a legal migrant 6 months months ago. Yeah. And you want to love this country, come along. Yeah. So, Unite the Kingdom movement was to bring and unite this country together and send a message to the rest of the population that you're not alone. You're not alone. Yeah. But my key point of it was to unite everyone because you know what I see happening and I can see it happening.

But unite everyone to what end? What direction are you wanting to I understand that you want a broad church you want it to be broad for lots of people to get involved but get involved to what direction

for for me when when we met together the

small state free speech

free the 15 of us met together originally which was um Lawrence Fox Carl Benjamin Mayusi um Katie Hopkins um so there was many people come to this meeting and the meeting was for this this purpose was to say let's not talk about what we disagree on because you might like Palestine and I might like Israel you might like this and I might like that but let's agree together on five points just five what's the most important things to all of us what can we agree on

British culture our culture is at risk free speech stop mass immigration Islam is a problem

mass immigration legal and illegal.

No, legal as well.

Legal and

the numbers are too much, man.

Yeah,

them numbers are too much now. It's it's changing too much, too quick, too fast.

It's not and so stop mass immigration, um, free speech, stop sexual exploitation and LGBTQ plus indoctrination. So, we said these are the points that we

think we should focus on. Yeah. And all of us agreed on these points. We spent two days. Jordan Peterson flew in for the meeting. Jordan Peterson flew in and said, "What what you've done already in your first event and what I can see rising is what we've been trying to do with Ark, which is a cultural revolution." Yeah. Now,

which Jordan Peterson classically said on stage that the Ark movement is a conservative classically liberal movement.

Is that what he said?

Yeah. Yeah.

But he said any cultural revolution has to start from the bottom. It it can't start from the educated. Yeah. And from the the higher class. It has to start from the bottom. And that's what he So he he flew in cuz he said, "I see I'm watching what's happening here and I see this is incredibly important for Brim because something's brewing." Yeah. And that something still is brewing. And it may mean, you know, like it's the same with English fence. You'd stop the English fence, say, "Why are you there? Why are you there?" You'd stop 10 people and they'd all be there for a different reason. Same with the United Kingdom movement. Yeah. People are there because they feel lost. They feel lonely. They feel uh betrayed. That mass immigration is a problem. Islam's a problem. But we come together just to say let's agree on five principal values that we all agree on. And if we can all work under this umbrella, then we have a massive power because we have a massive reach. So we whilst you're isolated and and I'm isolated and you're blacklisted from the media and they won't talk to you and they won't talk to you. If we all come together under one umbrella, we've got a big reach

and we can start challenging and then we worked out how's best to do that. So we were talking about what we should do best. Should we do stunts? Should we shut down Asda? Should we target halo? what what should we do? And the focus was that if we change the culture, we change the politics, let's give people back the sense of identity and make it fun. Let's have fun again. Let's make it cuz it's it's not cool to be British at the minute. The kids aren't celebrating being British. We need to make it so everyone looks and thinks, I want to be part of that.

It's cool to be British because it a and rather than people, the youth wanting to convert to Islam, we want them celebrating who they are. So that was the focus in music, in culture, in art. Momus was incredible for this. So I sat and had done a podcast with Mus and thought has a Pakistani just sat and give us all the answers

because he sat down. [laughter] I think he's a great man. But he sat down and he spoke about culture and what he saw as his vision and I was picking up on bits of that. So we were all coming was at the meeting as well. for all at this meeting and um I think that the vision for the country would just for me is if politics is politics but this is cultural we have a cultural problem we're losing our culture

and if we come together and if we change the culture then the politicians will try to ride that wave y

and I think that's what we've seen and if you look at a 20 if you look 24 months on

if you look at 30,000 100,000 200,000 a million whatever September 13th and then you look at Robert Genrich You look at their statements. You look at Nigel Far. Now, Nigel Farage wasn't Nigel Farage openly said, "I'm going to America for my uh commentary and whatever media stuff he's doing."

We held the 30th of June 5 days after seeing 30,000 people celebrating identity outside Parliament, which has never been seen from the right.

Yeah.

That's never happened in Britain. Yeah. Yeah. those numbers and the fact that we managed to pull it off peacefully, very calmly and in such a beautiful manner when bringing bringing music bringing music change everything.

Yeah. Yeah. Bringing music change everything. And I think which we can get on to I think the introduction of Christianity which at this meeting we at this meeting obviously Calvin Robertson was there um and there was a lot of focus as well on Christianity with the 15 of us because there's another gentleman who's fabulous gentleman um who everything all of my documentaries none of them would have happened without this man. He's a very devout Christian.

I've struggled with faith. I've struggled all the time with faith and then he's played a pivotal role and he was pivotal in these meetings as well and behind the scenes and working he's pivotal now with uh advance which is why I'm aligned with advance

because I align with him and so he's been pivotal and I think that um yeah so we had these meetings and we had a we had a plan 24 months on I think we've changed debate we've awoken a nation we've United people Nigel Faraj and reform a ride in that wave. I think as I said Nigel wasn't standing.

Nigel's gone from not up for mass deportations for all these things to just changing totally because he can see the public opinion there.

Yeah, he's he's he's definitely flip-flopped. So obviously you have centered um Christianity in in very recently. I mean very recently you become a Christian yourself which we're all happy about you know in the church. um at least the real church, not not not the Church of England hierarchs, but you you've obviously put Christianity front and center of the the United Kingdom movement and the patriot movement. What what role do you see Christianity playing in the patriot movement, but also in your vision of Britain? So that those two elements. So I think I I think and I just done an interview for a documentary yesterday in France and I thanked France because it was the French the day the Olympic opening ceremony.

Yeah.

That bought me that. So I then changed and said a priest is talking get a priest talking at our event. Yeah. Cuz it [ __ ] it wound me up that much.

It wound me up that but I wasn't that I wasn't that into belief.

I just watched it and thought how [ __ ] dare you. M

how you would never do that to Islam. You would never do that to another religion. You would never do that to another prophet. You would never mock it like that. And then I start asking why are they mocking it in such a way? Why the which is pretty much Satanism, I'd say. And when as I've looked at all the evilness and then I started going down rabbit holes and I'm watching thinking, well, if there's this, there has to be this. There has to be a good there has to be an there has to be the opposite.

And then I looked at, you know, when they take the word Christ out of everything.

Yeah. And then I looked at uh sportsmen who say something about Jesus after a game and then when you watch the game they cut it out

and I see a massive effort. And then I looked at Britain and I saw the queen. They said she there's a question asking the queen what built Brit says the Bible built Britain. So I looked at that and then I looked at our history and then I looked at where we're at and then I and I was thinking deeply because I went to Poland. Um they haven't lost their identity. When I went to Poland 2015, it was called a March for God.

That's what the march was called. And on that march, there were so many symbols of Jesus. So much about abortion, so much. And it it surprised me, but I didn't think of it much then. And then and then I think about where we're at now. We have no whether you like and I've had this discuss discussion with Liam Tus. Whether you want to believe in Jesus or not, what built this country? What values built it? and what's filled the void once it's been replaced. So once you've took Christianity out of life, which we've done, you've took church out, you've took prayers out, you've took it all all of it out. What's filled that? Marxism, communism, LGBTQ plus, new ideas, new ideologies, new movements and Islam

and Islam and then but but I've always been felt betrayed by the church. I feel massively betrayed. When we started the English fence league, every city we went to, the priests come out with them. They stood with the Imams against us and condemned us. And every time they done it, I thought, "No, we're your lost sheep. You you [ __ ] We're the lost sheep.

We're the reason your church are empty because you are not in touch with us." Now, what the church doesn't have, which Bob, you played an instrumental role in my view as well because what the church doesn't have is young men.

Yeah.

They don't have Islam [clears throat] does. Say, say I was just in jail in Woodil and a a Muslim, a Muslim imam was come from my thing and he actually he come and he said Iran sends his love which was a kid I went to school with he's doing 25 years he was in Wood and he said Iran sends his love. I said is he in here? Cuz I was talking to him three years prior. I said [ __ ] hell man. And but the imam was a lad. He's wearing Stone Island.

Yeah.

He dresses like us. He talks like us. He's from the street. You see a priest, they're usually elderly, not in touch with the street or the working class. That's how I felt. And then the priest come to myself and he was a lad.

He was an Asian lad from Scotland, but he was a good lad.

And I asked him, so when we had

gable,

yeah, one of the lads. Yeah. So I could I could relate with him.

I mean, I do, Tommy, forgive me for interrupting. I do I do genuinely find the anecdotes interesting, but I want to drill into what where you see Christianity is. What is it? What what is why have you centered Christianity in the patriotic movement? What do role do you think it'll play there?

I think it's going to and then what role do you think it will play for the country?

I think for the country I think that all of the values which are broken are Christian values. the family, all of these things, free speech, all of these points are coming from Christianity. And I think that if we as a sense of identity, as a Christian nation and Christian people and bringing them back together, I see that none of this would have happened that the destruction of this country. But I don't but I blame the church.

I blame the church. No, I I mean just just so you know, like I agree. The Church of England is is singularly useless.

I don't actually think many of them I used to look at the one in Luton. There was a bloke called Adams. What was his name? Adams, if you're watching this, you don't even believe in Jesus, bro. You're a Marxist and you've infiltrated the church to push a political [ __ ] agenda. And I've watched him do it. And I used to watch him do it. I thought, you're not even a Christian, man. Like when I'd meet him and he'd always be condemning us.

So I saw the church as problematic. And you know, my my deacon Jerry, I still remember it. Deacon Jerry is Polish. He was a deacon of the Catholic Church. My mom's a Catholic. I was brought up a Catholic. And I went to the Catholic church when the English fence league started. And I said, "Deacon, I'm struggling massively here." I said, "I'm struggling with Islam. The more I'm finding, the more I'm struggling."

And he said the Lord's prayer, "Our Father in heaven," he got to the point of, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." I said, "That's it?"

Yeah,

that's your advice. Forgive them

as they rape their way through our town. as they terrorize and slaughter Christians worldwide. And I feel like even now, look what's happening in Nigeria. Where's the Christians? Where's the Yeah.

Um,

no, but you you've played See, when I say you play people role, cuz I saw you, I thought, who is this dude? And what form of Christianity is this? Cuz I've never heard a priest talk like this. I I used to find in America. So, I started then looking in America and hearing some pastors thinking, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's strength."

And men want strength. And do you know who Colin Dy?

No.

No. So Colin Dy um Kensington Temple.

Yes.

Yeah. So when when I started the English Fence League, I went there. I went there again searching all these different things. And I went for a meeting there and he had a book called Unmasking Satan.

Unmasking Satan's Islam. And I always thought the church were asleep, but I didn't see

them. And he spoke to me about Jesus. Uh, when Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek," he meant, "Hit me like a man."

I said, "What?"

He said, "It wasn't of weakness. It was, it was to turn and..."

"Yeah. It's the insult there that you've given someone an insult. So you're forcing them to..."

"You're forcing them to. So that's how he portrayed it."

So when my, when the pastor knocked on my cell door this time around, I said, "When Jesus said, 'Turn the other cheek,' what did he mean?"

He goes, "You meant, 'Don't treat me like that. Hit me like, like he..." So he gave a strut, and I thought, "I'm going to listen to you."

Yeah. And I'm, 'cause I've never, I'd never even looked at the Bible.

Yeah.

I'd done my Holy Communion. I'd done, but I didn't go to, I refused to go to a Catholic school.

Yeah.

I refused with what happened in the Catholic Church. It sickened me.

Um, I refused it. I'd never been. So whilst I'd done it for my mom, I wasn't interested in the Catholic Church, um, because of all the pedophile, the cover-up, everything like that. And then I felt betrayed by the church, or the English Defence League. I was going down this path of, and against the church. I thought, "You, your churches are empty. You're so outdated. You're so..." And then I saw this rise. You were pivotal in it. When I listen, I listen to you and saw strength. And then I thought, "Christianity wouldn't still be here if it was weak."

Exactly.

But so it cuts, it intersects with your whole question around identity.

Yeah. You know, the, the kind of, um, and, and I, I want to keep focusing on your politics, but ultimately, it is the, the thing that you're being drawn to is a Christian identity that has a sense of itself. And I'm getting the impression that that's why, not only why you become a well, that's a separate question, but that you see Christianity as being able to fill the void.

To fill, to fill the void and bring back and bring and give us back that sense of identity we've lost. And it's where we, and it's actually everything that built us. Do you know when I read the Bible? Do you remember when I started reading the Bible when I was in jail?

[ __ ] hell. Every saying, everything come from the Bible. I can't, I couldn't believe as I'm flicking through like, "Oh, that, that, that, all, all the, all the different sayings, all the different analogy, everything." So as I'm reading through it, I was just shocked, surprised. Um, but certainly the pastor who I met in jail, who was, whose church, [clears throat] was full.

Okay.

'Cause I'd been to other prisons. I was really going to church. The priest is out of touch. Steve was in touch, man. And, uh, he was a good lad.

And I could see, and he cared, and he wasn't weak.

And the church in prison is a very alive church. It's a very real church, you know, very much so. In terms of, in, in terms of then you, you've got this vision where Christianity, do you see Christianity playing a central role?

So Christianity, do you see Christianity being sort of like an ingredient in a mix of things? I experienced something on the first demo when a lad stood up and he had a sign saying, "Christ is King," and I watched the crowds roar. [ __ ] hell. And I, at this time, I wasn't like, as I said, I was just, and I swear, everyone roaring. And then at the second one, when he had 100,000 people chanting, "Christ is King," I thought, "What's happening here? Something's happening."

Something's happening.

And obviously, I was asking myself all these questions at the same time. Something's happening because I don't even think that 100,000 people believe.

Christ is King.

Yeah.

But something's going on here. And then I looked at church figures. When I come out of jail, I started asking all these questions, looking at the numbers. Young men are searching. Young British men are searching.

Yeah.

The quiet revival.

As they've lost their cult, as they, as they're seeing their culture disappear, they're seeing their identity erode. They're searching for it. And as they're searching for where it's come from, they're finding Christianity.

[laughter]

It's come from here. So I see something huge happening. But I also see it happening outside of the church.

I see a, you can see by whether it be Ricky or the other lads who are baptizing people. People aren't going to mainstream churches.

I think they portrayed us.

Yeah.

But there's a rise in masculine Christian identity.

I think what you're identifying is liberal churches. The Church of England church, you know, like, I like the black churches. When I look at churches, I like the black churches.

I think I'll go there. I went to a funeral, black lad who was murdered. I went to a funeral, mate. It was a party, man. And it was so energetic and it felt so, it felt so great.

At a funeral?

But I just think, yeah. I, when I look at standing in the church with an old 75-year-old priest.

Yeah.

No. So, so let's.

Because I think that Christianity is as important because of community.

Now, you mentioned, you said yourself that you've aligned yourself to Advance because there's a, a Christian who's also a part of Advance and he's sort of drawn you into that orbit. So, you know, are you signed up to the Advance political agenda? And do they see Christianity as being essential to their vision of a United Kingdom?

They do. Yeah.

And, and, and how have they expressed that? What do they see? Because I, here's one of the things that I would, I, I know that pivotally, I know that my friend, the Christian lad, is writing lots of the policies.

Yeah.

For Advance.

And I know him.

And I know that the one thing that drives him is Christianity.

Yeah. Because, because the thing is, one, one thing that I, I would, I, I engage with on this issue a lot. Something I'm very interested in, is that there's a lot of people out there who want to cloak themselves in Christianity and have Christian festivals, but they're not actually committed to Christian values or a Christian worldview, Christian life. It's why I haven't been baptized. I want to get baptized.

Yeah.

Because I want, because, because I'd say that I think that from that point, I think I've lived a pretty immoral life.

A pretty embarrassingly immoral life at times.

When I think about it now.

Yeah.

And I think that, yeah, I've done a probably done a lot wrong.

I mean, we've all got history.

And, and that's the point.

And no one's perfect.

And that's the point of.

But I think from the, from, yeah, from a baptism, you want to live a perfect life anyway.

But I still struggle. Do you want to see Christianity taught in schools?

Christianity has to be taught in schools.

Do you want to see, do you want to see the state being a con? So, for instance, we've got a state now that, on paper at least, is supposed to be a confessing state. It's supposed to believe in Christianity. Clearly, it doesn't. It's got no confession. So.

The Houses of Parliament, you've got the Christian, you've got the Bible and the Quran in the same drawer. Which one do you think's on top of the other?

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. But in the Houses of Parliament, you've got those prayers in the division halls. You've got those great prayers that are there that the Lords are meant to read and the MPs are meant to read as they go onto, onto their divisions. But, but do you, do you are you wanting to see a confessing state like the state? Do you want, like a neutral state like you've got in America or in France? That, do you want a, or do you want a confessing state that says, like more like Poland and Hungary?

That's what I think. Yeah. We, that's what we need.

Yeah. We need to be unashamedly and proudly Christian.

As a country, as a culture, as our identity.

Yeah.

That's it.

And do you see any limits to that? Like, do, or do you think it should influence all aspects of life?

No. Look, because some people are going to be atheists, but that's not a problem.

It's not a problem at all. Some people be other religions, but we shouldn't be promoting other religions.

Yeah.

We should be promoting our religion.

That's it. So, it's a case of the state promotes Christianity, but if you're not into that, that's fine. Get on with your own thing. But.

Go your own thing, but stop telling us we can't sing Christian hymns. Stop. Stop. If you want to go to school, there's going to be Christian, um, hymns. That's it.

There's going to be Christian identity. You can't, like, like, as I said, I give the example with the English Defence League when they took the word Christ out of Christmas and six.

Six different councils.

Yeah.

It's like, but when they make these decisions, again, that's not Muslims making those decisions. I don't actually think that they care that we celebrate Christmas. I don't think it's them that are trying to erode Christmas. It's some liberal atheist Marxist who is attacking Christmas.

We're attacking Christians. Not no other ones. You know, when it's Eid, you know, they actually in Luton, they put other logos. When it's, because Eid was at a similar time, they put all the Eid lights up with the Christmas lights. It's like, no, [ __ ] off.

So, so, so let's get into the Islam question. You.

Um, you know, like, and, and I do want to encourage you to be bluntly honest. I know you've got balls of steel and I know you, you express yourself fully, completely based upon what you believe. So, do you believe that the problem is Muslims, Islam, some Muslims, some sects of Islam? Like, what, when you talk about the question of Islam, let's, let's drill into it. What exactly do you say is the problem and who exactly is responsible for?

The problem is Muhammad.

Right.

All comes down to Muhammad. The problem is the man Muhammad was.

Yeah.

He was an immoral warmonger, a pedophile, a rapist, a murderer, a torturer. He ordered the execution of poets. He tortured Canana, burned him until he robbed his gold. He was a pirate.

That's the problem.

Now, many Muslims, this is, and this is a difficult issue for me because I went through a lot of problems here because growing up in Luton, I, I know some beautiful Muslims.

I know some wonderful men, but they're not wonderful men because they follow Islam. They're just wonderful men.

And even, you know, I just said I went to football the other day, so got two brothers. I don't want to name them, but mom's black Kenyan Muslim, dad's Christian. Okay. They got taken out of the Madrasa when they were, and bought into my school. When the Madrasa started teaching, their dad had the devil in him.

Yeah.

Because I remember that's when I met him. When they come to my school, one would still at times identify the Muslim side of the family. The other one doesn't. But I still love that man. He's still a great man who would have my back like that.

Yeah.

In any problem. But so he's not a problem. But he would still identify as a Muslim. And, and, and many Muslims, and I think the problem is apostasy because if there wasn't that rule and families wouldn't abandon them and they wouldn't be ostracized from community and family, then Islam would have collapsed already.

But because of that rule, many people who might not even believe in it still identify as it because it's part of it's part of this thing that glues them all together.

Yeah. So I don't see Muslims are people. So if you think every individual person's a problem, you're a problem.

Yeah.

Because some of them are going to. Winston Churchill said it perfectly. Individual Muslims will show great traits, personal traits.

But Islam will always bring society backwards because of their belief on women being the property of man, their belief on freedom of speech. So for me, Islam is the problem and Muhammad's the problem. It's Muhammad. It's all because of Muhammad and the man he was. He was an immoral man. The fact we now got four million people in this country, maybe six, maybe eight, that believe or are taught to believe from this high that this man was perfect. This man who, according to their scripture, not mine, not the Bible, not anything we say, forget what Christians say, forget what Sikhs say. Listen to what their scripture says.

He beheaded 600 people. He, he waged war. He spread with fred Islam with the sword. How, of course we're going to have problems. So when someone wants to be devout and practice the literal word of this book, well, they end up going and fighting for ISIS. And when we look at that, we've had Muslim immigration to this country for 50 years. And my mate who I was just talking about is one of the, one of the Muslims that went to join the Royal Navy.

Yeah.

He's one of them. And after Lee Rigby was beheaded, I stood at our first demonstration in Newcastle and said, "There's 660 Muslims serving in the British armed forces. They're doing a lot more than us."

Like, we can't hate every individual here. Period of Muslim immigration or 70-year period into the UK. Then over those years, in a three-year period of ISIS, four times as many Muslims went to fight for ISIS than had ever joined the British military in 60 years. There's a massive problem. Do you, do you, what, so let's, let's imagine that that you know, you're, you're in control, you do, do this thought experiment with me, like you're in control, you can fashion the state however you want. We've already established that you want a small state.

You want free speech. Do you want any kind of limits?

No limits.

So completely anybody.

Unless, no, no, unless it's incitement to violence.

That's the only limit. Silence of violence, incitement to murder. If you say something insulting. So what right? Okay. Um, where you and people, you know, you've got a confessing state. People can get on, do their own thing if they're not interested in that, but the state will only promote Christianity. Where in that vision of society do the Muslim population of the UK sit?

Well, hopefully they start going to church and they experience freedom.

Right. So you want to see them convert?

I want to see, I want to see Muslims have freedom. So Muslim girls in this country, I want them to be free. They're not.

Right.

They're not free due to the enslavement of Islam.

Yeah.

They're not free to wear what they want. They're not free to act on they want. They're not free to behave they want because their families are enforcing Islam upon them.

Yeah. So.

Where does Islam fit? Hitler's books banned. Mine camp. It's banned throughout Europe.

The Quran's not banned. It's celebrated and it's promoted.

By politicians, by Qatar, by all this money coming into the country.

So would you ban the Quran?

I think it needs to be. I think it needs banned.

How, how would.

No, I think if we have hate speech laws now in this country.

Yeah.

Well, the Quran breaches all of them.

So any mosque promoting the Quran is breaching every hate speech law.

But logically, if you, if you knock that first domino over and it falls, then there's, there's consequences that knock on from that. Like when you say, so for instance, would that mean that you would ban Islamic worship? Because Islamic worship requires recitation of the Quran and it requires these.

I'd ban Sharia. All aspects of Sharia.

So does that mean, for instance, you'd ban halal meat?

Uh, yes, I would.

Yeah.

Um, what about, um, Sharia courts?

Yes. Every, every. Well, if you banned every aspect of Sharia, there's not much left in Islam.

Well, this is that's the point.

There's not much left in Islam. So, so the European.

So what freedoms would you give to Muslims in the sense of what happens if they chose like, "No, actually, I want to wear the burka. I want to wear the niqab. I want to wear."

Ban them. Let them cover their hair if they want to cover their hair. I'm not going to tell a woman she can't cover.

So there's not a complete ban. And I guess what I'm trying to tickle.

I don't want to be telling people you can't put your hood up, you can't cover your hair.

Yeah.

But you're not walking around in a face covering where you're only showing your eyes. Reason being, a terrorist left this country wearing one.

Yeah.

Reason being, we've had murders. We've had terrorism. We've had all different things. Crime. Um, it's not normal. It breaks down communication. It's just not right. And I don't believe women are are free to wear them.

How does what you're saying differ from, um, Macron and the French Republic and the, the kind of enforced secularism that we've got going on?

Because they target all religions. All religions are a problem. They're not. Islam's a problem. That's it. Don't blame everyone else. Stop banning every, every other religious symbol. In every, I don't think there should be any Islamic society in any university in the UK.

Yeah.

Ban them all. Close them down. Let people go to university and learn. Then some people say, "Well, ban the Christian one." Well, why? Christian one's not a problem. All the Muslim ones are his butt to here. They're all, they're all Muslim Brotherhood. They're all promoting an intolerant fascist violent ideology. That's what it is. Christianity is none of those. Stop trying to make them comparable. When people say, "Oh, yeah, but you, if you do that to Islam, you must have to." No, you don't. No, because Muhammad said, "Turn the other cheek." And Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek." And Muhammad said, "Cut their heads off." There's two totally different beings here.

Yeah.

There's a man of peace. There's a man of, of love. And then there's a barbarian and a warrior. So, we don't need to put them on the same level because they're not. Muhammad can [ __ ] off. Okay. Jesus can come up here. So, we can worship Jesus and we can idolize Jesus. And on the Muhammad issue, no, that's it.

Yeah.

He's not a good man. Why? So when it comes to Islam, I just don't, I think Sharia should be outlawed. And I think if we outlaw Sharia, I think then maybe lots of Muslims may start having freedom, even on issues, even on female genital mutilation. 55,000 British girls have had their genitals mutilated and we've let it happen.

I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to tickle out where you would draw the line. So for instance, like Sharia conceives of things like, you know, five daily prayers. Would you outlaw five daily prayers?

Like, no.

So, so there is obviously some degree of Sharia that you'd permit. And, and am I right in think I'm gonna take.

I'd love to see Mecca, Medina, Quran.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a guess and, and you correct me if I'm wrong, that the dividing line is between public and private practice.

Yeah. Do you know like Sikhs?

Yeah.

Sikhs are very religious at home.

They're not out sticking on everyone else. They keep their identity. They're very religious, but they're not enforcing on everyone. They're not asking anyone to change for them. They're not asking the country to change for them. They're not forcing the country to change for them. They're not offended by everything.

So if it was a, so.

And mosques are not houses of prayer.

They're just not. So the last thing you do in a mosque is pray. It's a command and control center. Every war, every Islamic war, every uprising, every, every attack is starts from the mosque. So anything in any of these countries, it comes on Fridays after prayers. So I [snorts] think that allowing Qatar, allowing Iran, allowing any of these nations, any of these Islamic nations to fund madrasas and mosques in this country to dictate what form of Islam is being promoted in this country, I'd stop every penny coming from those nations.

So, you are you looking for like a, a version of Islam that is adopted, um, that is, that is, um, adapted to getting along with the rest of British culture and in so far as it does.

And if you want to go down that path, see you later.

But I, I'm just, I just want, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want the words.

No, I'm, I'm looking to take all of the hate out of Islam. The only way you can take the hate out of Islam and all the problems that come from Islam is to stop it. And, and then if you started stopping it, maybe some of these Muslims might think, "Well, I don't really want to live in Britain."

Okay. Sound. Where do you want to live? You want to live under Sharia? See you later. Okay. 1.2 million British Muslims want to live under Sharia law.

What about those Muslims that don't?

No, fine. Stay. Stay. Stay and enjoy freedom.

Because I, I believe the Muslims that don't will be the Muslims that don't believe in it. The one, they're the Muslims by name only. They're cultural Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims, and I, I found this, which I was very surprised with, when I actually started my in-depth research into Islam. Then I talked to Muslims I knew. They don't know anything about him.

They don't know the crimes of Muhammad. They don't know the man he was. Many of them. So, and they defend, but they defend him. But they're defending.

Yeah.

Because it's an honor culture. You've got that honor culture kicking in.

So, they defend him. So I, I don't want, if you're a peaceful Muslim and you're going to work here and you're living here, I don't want you to leave. I don't have a problem with you. If you're a Muslim and even if you're peaceful, but you wish to implement Sharia, you wish to influence Sharia, you wish to stop alcohol being sold, you wish to ban pork, you wish to have everything as allow, sorry. Go wish for it. I tell you what you can wish. Go to an Islamic country.

Yeah.

Stop changing this country. What happens if, if you've got a Muslim who just wants to keep the five pillars? They want to fast during Ramadan. They want to, um, go on Hajj at least once in their lifetime if they can.

They want to, you know, testify to their own faith. They want to, um, give their Zakat and they want to do their five daily prayers.

Like Ahmadi Muslims.

Ahmadi. Yeah.

Fine.

Would, would Ahmadi Muslims be analogous to the kind of Islam that you think Britain should accept?

I think there's certain sects of Sufism. I think there's certain sects that are less problematic, but they're not perfect. Even the Ahmadi Muslims.

But the other Muslims want to kill them.

Yep.

The other Muslims want to kill him. But yeah, there is a, there is a Ahmadi Muslims are a peaceful sect of Islam.

Um, that can live, side by side-ish. Well, I mean.

[laughter]

They, they, they, they, they are skew violence as a means, you know. So, but, but then so.

But they believe in a caliphate that would still use violence to impose Islam.

What, what we had, what we had in 200, after 7/7, the British government had a meeting of 100 Muslim organizations. And, you know, Harris, Harris Fah, Harris Fahhe, a Muslim gentleman, lovely man, invited me to his house for with his family for food, lovely family. Meant what he said, wanted to stop the problems. Because I think most of people like Majid Nawaz, was just getting paid. It's all [ __ ] Majid's back in Islam now. But when I went to Quilliam, you, I went to Quilliam. I spent three months at Quilliam. Quilliam was the British government-funded think tank to counter Islamic radicalization, extremism. And we had all these Muslims portraying they were the solution and fooling and luring to the public that there was an Islamic solution. When I went there, he was gay. He wasn't Muslim. So I'm like, "You're all just lying. None of you are Muslim. None of you are, any of the arguments you're putting across are not Islamic."

You're coming from a non-Muslim perspective.

And then the public are buying this [ __ ] that you are a solution. So you're walking us down a path, letting us think there's an Islamic solution to this. There's not. And, and, and Dr. Asim, Asim, who's an Imam, and he was the Imam from Quilliam, a be a lovely being. Yeah. A really kind, loving man. I believe he, I don't believe Majid believed it. Majid was at the time money, wanted financial benefit, career benefit, political benefit. Now Majid's back on the radical one in my eyes. He's back on the Muslim. He's back believing. He wasn't believing back then. I sat and had bacon with the Giza.

Yeah.

He wasn't believing. Now he's believing. He's back in Islam. I went and met him last year with a few of his mates in East London and they're they're back on their, they're back on their, um, belief. But, but Dr. Osama, I said, because I really believe he was trying to fight like for reformist Islam.

I said, "You're going to end up dead, one."

Yeah.

'Cause they're not going to let you reform it because no one's ever been able to. The last time someone tried to reform it, it was Abd al-Wahhab. And we, that's where Wahhabism come from, which why we're so [ __ ] because as they look to reform Islam, he brought it back to the teachings of Muhammad, which is war and [ __ ] violence. But, but with Dr. Osama, I said to him, "Can I just ask you, how many people do you think have converted this week to your form of Islam?"

One, two, if that. How many do you think have converted this week to jihad in the prison system? In the Wahhabi mosque, the Salafist mosque.

Yeah.

In all the.

Lewisham mosque.

How many do you think you're losing, bro? There's no, you're not even, you're not touching the sides. So, let's stop, let's stop pretending to the public that Islam or you guys are going to win this from within. We cannot rely on Muslims to sort this problem out because they're not going to, right? It's been going on for 1400 years. Not going to reform. So, we need to solve it. And the, the, the peaceful Muslims, the ones that you will know or the ones that I will know, well, they're irrelevant. They're irrelevant. Why are they irrelevant? Because 10,000 children were raped in Telford. Um, out of a population, 20% of the Muslims were raping. Thou there was 200 men. That's 20% of the men were raping kids. In in Roam, 3.7% Muslim population, 1,400 children raped across this whole country. Hundreds of thousands, if not million, [ __ ] rapes against our children. Do you know in all of those rapes, in all 85 cities now the inquiry has found that had these massive gangs in all these cities of hundreds and hundreds of men, generally Muslim men, went to the police?

They're going to go.

Not one.

Not one. They're not going to stop it. They're not going to help you. 66% of British Muslims say they would not report on another Muslim joining ISIS. Why? Because the Quran tells them they can't side with the Kafir over their brothers.

Yeah.

So even if they're their brother and they're raping an English girl, they're still their brother.

I know that's been the heart of your activist journalism.

Yeah.

Um, you know, what is it? You know, what, like, 'cause you, you are an activist in the sense that you're trying to build a, a cultural political movement and you're also an activist journalist as well and you pick up on stories that a lot of the mainstream journalists don't want to talk about. What do, what do you think is the role of of journalists, activist journalists, mainstream journalists in this whole debate? You know, are, do you think that they are meant to be, are they pushing an angle? Do you think the mainstream.

I think every journalist pushes an angle. I think we should recognize that.

Yeah.

Even us.

Yeah. Push an angle.

And you mean the new journalist? The new.

The new journalist. But, but at the same time, so I done Phantom Rake Game, if you saw it. Muhammad Raheem, who was accused of rape by a girl up in Barrow. I went up there to nail them, the Muslims. I, I went up there. I went to his ex-wife's house. I done so much research on him. I found out everything about the man. I couldn't find anyone to back up he was raping.

I found, I spoke to young girls that worked at his business previously, six of them. Woke to everyone who knew him. I think he was up to a lot, but I don't think he was involved in raping kids. And then I found that the girl had lied. So, it would have been easy for me to go up there and jump on the bandwagon and identify these men as potential rapists, but it's a big accusation to say someone's a child rapist if the only person saying it has a history of lying continually about rape.

So, when I went up there and found that, I delivered my documentary. Um, Muhammad Raheem, the Muslim said, when the, the MP come out, when it all hit the news and he said that I went up there to stoke tension. And Muhammad Raheem come out and said, "He's the only person who come up there to clear our name."

He was the only man fighting to clear our name because the more I sat and learned, I said, "I wanted to just get the truth out there." Now, his all these Muslim businesses and families were being destroyed. Their lives are being ruined through an accusation from. And I can't say that that girl wasn't a victim of rape at some point by someone. I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know. But I know that her word can't be taken.

Yeah.

And we can't see the destruction of other people's lives based on what she says.

And is the child grooming gang? Because I've, I've defended you publicly. I mean, that's, I often get attacked for the fact that I've defended you publicly. But the reason why I defend you publicly is because I'm from the North of England and when no one, I'm not gonna say, but where, um, nice try.

[laughter]

But, [snorts] but when, um, you know, when no one wanted to listen to, to my community, you know, you forced people to listen to my community. And from that day, I, I just made a point in my head, well, he stuck up for us, so I'm going to stick up for him. And I have done ever since, you know, but.

Well, no, thank you.

You know.

Remember Anne Cryer.

What, sorry?

Anne Cryer is an MP. And I met her. I met her years and years ago. She is, she is the first MP who tried to raise this.

Well, there was Jack Straw.

Jack Straw was after her. Jack was so.

Jack was after her. So Anne Cryer was the first in Dewsbury. But her words, she went to the Imams and asked for their help and asked them to tell the Muslims that it wasn't Islamic to do this, you know. So when I sat there and I sat there with her, and this is on video. I've got an old video of it. I said, "Well, how do you know it's not Islamic?

Do you know what's in the Quran?" She had no idea. So she asked them to help and they didn't help.

Yeah.

So she was trying to raise awareness. And I think Piers Morgan made a point in this. Someone else spoke about it. They may have spoke about it, but how many people in the country heard about it from Anne Cryer?

Yeah.

Who never, who, when it, when unfortunately, when the [ __ ] got tough, she stood back.

Yeah.

Jack Straw made the comment, Pakistanis, um, "easy meat."

But he only done that two years into the English Defence League. I remember it. Blackburn, I can remember it.

So the difference is, which I'm not the only person to speak about it. I'm not the only. But Andrew Norfolk, who won all the awards in his words. Yeah. Again, this is documented. He's a mainstream media guy.

He's The Times journalist. And he's just died recently. But he's The Times journalist who has given the credit for bringing this to the world's attention. Now, in his words.

He knew it was happening for years. So, I know he's dead, but he's a coward.

Yeah.

Like the rest of them because he knew it was happening. He refused to report on it. His words, not mine.

Because it was so politically toxic and it was the far right's dream. Pakistani men raping young English girls. So he was aware it was happening but didn't comment on it. The reason why he jumped into action was because he saw the emergence of the far right, the English Defence League. So he saw the English Defence League on the streets. He saw them championing this message. So he wanted to take it back. So if we, that's the way he words it. Now, I'll reword it as a spineless coward journalist who refused to, who allowed children to be raped because he was worried about getting labeled as a racist, then wanted to take it back from the concerned families and community who were on the streets protesting about it.

Yeah. And so, so, so where, what do you think? Like, so you, as a journalist, you've obviously crusaded on this agenda for quite a while, just like other journalists crusade on their own, you know, like you got left journalists crusading on environmentalism and others on poverty and so on. And you, you've obviously crusaded very much on this topic and all the credit to you for for charging in there, you know, like in terms of other stories that you would like to bring to attention as a journalist, what, what other kind of areas of concern and, and topics would you like to speak about and you want people to know about?

Uh, the Islamic takeover of our prisons.

That's something I'm working on now. Just, just had a meeting this week, but I've got, we haven't got a big enough team. We need to do episode six, which is looking at Labour's involvement in the rape gangs.

Yeah.

So, we've done a five-part series, The Rape of Britain. You can watch them at trfilms.co.uk, but episode six is Labour Party's involvement. I'd love to go to Nigeria. I think if I had the resources now, I'd be in Nigeria as well.

Telling the, the jihad and what's happening to Christians there that people need to see and hear and understand. That I think 200,000 have been killed, far more than were killed in, in Palestine.

No.

Yeah. Loads more.

Far more than been killed. But no one even knows what's. Do you know what? It's the truth. Go back, find our first ever English Defence League demo. When we went from the United People of Luton to the English Defence League, we went to Birmingham and our placards, which you can find and read, "Nigerian Christians, we stand with you."

Because I remember that year, three or four Christian churches were blown up on Christmas Day.

Yeah.

Didn't even make the news.

Never does. They only ever talk about it on Christmas Day and then they forget it for the.

Mosque. If a mosque was blown up by Christians,

look at the hoo-ha when there was a Muslim that vandalized the mosque. That's it. And, and the hoo-ha that was around that. And the silence around.

And all the Christian churches being burned down in, in France, in, um, Canada.

Yeah.

Here in this.

So you want to talk about, you, you want to talk about Labour's involvement in the child grooming gangs. You want to talk about the Muslims taking over prisons. You want to talk about persecution.

On the, on the prison issue. So back in 2009, when the Islamic takeover was going on in the prison system, some men tried to resist it. Yeah. Those men are currently rotting in the basement of jails. They've been left. They've been forgotten. They've spent years now on solitary confinement. And they've got fatwas against them.

So I want to tell their story.

I want to tell the story that in England's prison system, some English men tried to resist, mainly from Liverpool.

Yeah.

But they tried to resist the dominance, the bullying, the conversions, the all of it. And forced conversions.

Forced conversions. That's they weren't just attacking Muslims.

Yeah.

But they were stopping the terrorists taking over the jails.

Yeah.

And then the system crushed them.

And a system. So I want to. So you know, like everyone. So you'll have a journalist who specializes in football commentary. Well, they focus on that.

Yeah.

So my special. You know, when I started the English Defence League, I left Luton. I know loads of girls that have been victims of rape gangs and conversions and all this. When I left Luton, I traveled the country just meeting families.

Yeah.

And it was like, [ __ ] it was harrowing, man. When you go from one city to another city, you hear the story of what's happened to the 12-year-olds. And do you know one dad who's in Blackpool, and this years later, he rang me. The dad, they took his daughter. So she's gone. She, she's gone. Yeah. The Muslim boys took her. They'd ring the dad. The father and the son would ring the dad and he'd have to listen to them raping his daughter.

Now think about this [ __ ] What the [ __ ] is. What the [ __ ] And I'm listening to all this thinking, what the [ __ ] is going on?

Yeah.

And then I go to another family whose 12-year-old's been missing for three, four days. And I speak to the brother who was only 16. And I tell this story because it still lives with me. I went to Blackburn. I met the family. The daughter's missing. She's 12. They're all raping her. All the Muslims have got her. The 16-year-old boy sitting there. The mom, the dad are there. Now we've got the demo the next day. So I stayed up there. We got the demo the next day. It's all kicking off with the police at the front. I've gone down to try and calm it. Who's, who's attacking the police? The 16-year-old brother.

Who the [ __ ] am I to tell him not to attack the police? When I'm watching it, I'm thinking,

you, they're not, they're doing nothing. They remember at the start of the English Defence League, this wasn't being addressed. They were still in cover-up mode. They were still letting them take the girls.

Yeah.

It was only boom, when when EDL went bang that they then had to address it. That's when Andrew Norfolk ran the story. I was in jail. I remember when, when the Andrew Norfolk, and I think they might intentionally have done that. I was leading the Defence League. I'm sat in jail. I'm watching it for myself. Boom. Thinking, "Fucking hell." I'm watching it all come out, thinking everything we've said. We've been, you've all been attacking us and here it is now in a government black and white.

And it's amazing how, it's amazing how when when you say it.

Yes, it is.

It's a terrible problem. But when the elites say it.

And do you know what they're all doing now? All the commentators, they're all seeing who can shout the loudest about it. And I'm looking, well, hold on a minute. You were all condemning us for for 15 years. So you want to be a journalist that, you, this, you were, you were just about to tell me as a journalist you wanted to specialize in, and then you slipped into an anecd issues that people find difficult to speak about because I have faced all the attacks. I've lost everything. There's nothing more they can do to me.

Yeah.

So, anything that's challenging, any stories that need to be told, I'm happy to tell them. I'm happy to tell them. So, I want to talk about the prison takeover. Anything that's a danger to this country and that people need to know. The public need to know things.

Now, you, you, you say something like anything that's a danger to this country, like you've been on the receiving end of what could only be described as political persecution by the elites, by the state, you know, um, abuse of police powers, abuse of the anti-terrorism act, um, you know, falsely accused of multiple different things. I mean, I know you've also done your misdemeanors as well, like, you know, that that's obviously true.

No, I'm not, I'm not, I don't ever claim to be polishing my hair, though.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. And, and, and like, you know, firstly, every Christian, every Christian's got a sinful past. Every Christian's got problems and things that they're going through, you know, like you. And no one who respects you or or supports you is doing so because they think you're sinless.

Yeah.

No, no one's doing that. No one's under that illusion. We know you're not perfect.

I, people admire you because you stood up for the vulnerable. It's because you've, you've taken the hits and you've suffered for what you've done. Um, but the, the, the question that, uh, I want to get at is like, how do you view the state and the state's role in what is going on.

In this?

So the state are responsible for all the things I'm talking about. The state are, the state are responsible for every aspect of this, every problem. Now, that's the why reason why they needed to cover it up because if the public were allowed to be aware of this, the magnitude of the problem we face, whether it be the rape gangs, whether it be Islam, whatever the problems are, well, who brought them here? Who opened the borders? Whose policy was it? The state. And the state have actively said, I'm about to do. I know Rupert Lo's inquiry going on at Parliament. When I started talking about the Islamic, the rape gangs, when I started the English Defence League, um, I, I go to Luton Airport, I'm detained by Special Branch.

Yeah.

They then tell me when they get me to a police station, "We're now raiding, raiding properties linked to you." So what do you mean, properties linked to me? They went to my mom's house and they went to my kids's house with machine guns. Armed raids.

Yeah.

Do you know the police that executed those raids? They'd come from Yorkshire. Now, what they said is on the hotel room door, there's a little bit of mail. I've told the story a few times, but it's it's incredible.

Yeah.

There's a 30-pound damage on the hotel room door that they say I stayed in. Now, after the Blackpool demonstration, the EDL one, I went and stayed in Sheffield and the police followed me there. So they know I stayed in the hotel. And they say there's 30 pounds worth of damage on this hotel door and they use that to gain a warrant to raid both houses.

Yeah.

So, then I get my bail conditions. And this is Yorkshire Police. This is before anyone knows about grooming. Where's the biggest rape scandal? Yorkshire.

Yeah.

At this time that this is going on, they raid both houses. When they bail me, my bail conditions are, I'm not allowed to send an email. I'm not allowed to be in a group of three or more people from the English Defence.

Yeah.

My bail date was the same date and time that I was meant to talk at our next event in Yorkshire about grooming.

Right.

So they just fabricated a charge and politically tied me up.

Yeah.

I then put in a complaint with the IPCC, the Independent Police Complaints Commission. They just admitted it all. So when it got to after the demonstration, because I weren't allowed to go, I wasn't allowed to contact people. I wasn't allowed to do anything. They tied me.

up. Yeah. But they continued to use these tactics. Now, this was a tactic by the state and the police. Thirty police officers coming from Yorkshire to fabricate a charge that the hope the manager, when I went through the evidence, once I got, once it all got kicked out, when I went through the independent place, the manager of the hotel told them I'd done nothing wrong. Yeah. They'd gone up there trying to find something. Yeah. And they said there was this criminal damage, which there wasn't. Right. They fabricated it in order to arrest me, in order to control me, in order to silence me.

Now, when they done that, this is West Yorkshire Police. This is Yorkshire Police. Now, the officer in charge of Yorkshire Police, this is, you have to understand that in every police force, remember, these police officers know what they've done. They allowed the prostitution and rape of a generation of kids. They've all got dirty hands. They will do anything to hide that.

Now, in those early years, they were crushing us. They tried to crush us. They tried to silence us. They tried to attack us. They tried everything. They threw us in jail. They done it. They they arrested. My wife was six months pregnant when they come and arrest her at at this time. They nicked her. She's six months pregnant. Yeah. They put every bit of pressure they could.

Now, at the time of the height of the Roam scandal in Yorkshire, the police officer in charge, what's his job now? He's in charge of counterterrorism. He's in charge of counterterrorism. Oh, have I just been smashed on counterterrorism police? It's like all of these police officers, which we're going to look at the next documentary, all of them, not just the counsel, the the counselors that were involved, because many Labour counselors were involved, they've all gone up through the ranks. So, anyone who was involved in allowing this rape 15 years ago are now sitting in sitting in high ranking positions of power. Some of them are members of parliament now. Yeah. So, the cover up from the top has been pushed down because they've all got dirty hands.

And how do you propose, given the fact that they've, you know, um, how do you propose that we change that? Like, well, they have to face criminal proceedings. But but how? No, let's be clear, not the rapists. How do we propose, how do you propose that we change that in the sense of, they are the ones in power right now. So if they're the ones wielding the power and they're in the the village of the powerful, how do you get the village of the powerful to turn on their own? How do you?

So in OldM, in OldM, which when [clears throat] you get to 33% Muslim population, you cannot get the statistics. Because basically, old, the people of Oldm, the mothers and the families of the children were demanding an independent inquiry in OldM council. I don't know if you followed all this. That Raj me is brilliant. He needs a total recognition for everything he's done. Yeah. The Muslim lad up there fighting like on his own. Yeah. But in, so they're demanding from the council, we want an independent inquiry. Yeah. And the council rebutted about four times. They actually dragged the family out with security out the town hall or the council. Then they have local elections and then people put themselves forward to say, if you vote for me, we will get an independent inquiry, because Labour kept shutting it down. Yeah. Labour and old kept shutting down. So then they have elections and then these people have voted in. Yeah. And they win the elections. So now they're going to go for the independent inquiry. Now, this all developed when I was in jail at this point. Then on the start of January. So Labour, the so Olden council, now full of these independents who are demanding an independent inquiry, they then go to the Labour government. We want an independent inquiry. Jeff Phillips, [ __ ] off. They shut them down again. So it's the government and the people with dirty hands continually shut it down. So they had their election to try and get the independent inquiry and then the Labour government shut it down.

So how do we stop it? Get rid of this [ __ ] Labour government in a in a political revolution. At the, it's happening anyway. Do you think though that I know obviously you've you've tagged your your your colors to Advance? I still I think. Do you think Advance is going to win? No, I think Nigel Farage is going to sweep it. I think that the country is going to back him and I think that hopefully through Advance and through Rert Low, he's going to be forced in his positions. Because understand this, when Rupert Low was speaking out about the rape gangs, Nigel Far was telling him to stop talking about them. Yeah. He was trying to shut him down. Yeah. The mood of the nation has swung. Okay, Nigel will know that Nigel cares about Nigel. That's what I think. Yeah. Nigel will want to be successful. I hope that when Reform win the election, in fact, I believe they will, um, do a proper independent inquiry. That independent inquiry has to have punishment. So all these people at the minute, the heads of police, the heads of councils who allowed all this, they're just sitting on their pensions. They're quite happy. They need to lose their pensions. They need, if you, if you want to stop it ever happening again, anyone sitting in a position of power who sees men raping kids need to be that worried that if they don't do their job, they're going to end up in prison. Yeah. Because all of these people who let it happen, none of them have gone to prison. None of them have even lost their pensions.

So there needs to be, there needs to be accountability and justice. Not and justice, not just for the rapists. And when we say justice, say like Telford, 200 rapists were identified by the police. They prosecuted 11. So don't [ __ ] yourself if you're watching this at home. Don't think they've gone and got all the gangs and gone and got all the rapists. In fact, the National Crime Agency coming in Yorkshire, they done a good sweep because to deal with these gangs, you need to take it away from the local police. You cannot allow Telford police to investigate Telford rapists because Telford police are working with Telford rapists and they've worked together for 30 years. We know that in all these towns and cities. So, you need an outsized force to come into the towns, which is what the National Crime Agency have been doing in Yorkshire and they've been smashing them. So, you need the National Crime Agency. So there's still there's still elements of the state that can operate, but they're only doing it because they now have spoke. They have to. They've never done this.

Do you think I mean, they're quite happy. They were quite happy to sacrifice our our daughters for the for the future of their vote, for the future power. They care about power. They don't give a [ __ ] about you. They don't give a [ __ ] about me. They don't give about our daughters. I'm aware. Do you do I mean, it it it strikes, do you think that Reform, Advance, anyone has the the the sufficient drive to sort of drain the swamp? Because it's not just, you've mentioned police, but it's also judges, civil service. It's the civil service is the big. Civil civil servants, particularly, um, it's, it's people in child protection, the social services, like, is do you think that Advance or Reform have the kind of contingent of MPs that have that vision enough that actually, yeah, we, we, what we're going to do is we're going to have a sweep away.

I think it's above them. So I, I think that coming out of the United States, everything is coming out of the United States. So what Donald Trump does and what their vision they're portraying for Europe and the future of Europe with populism, with right-wing politics, with unity, with the AFD, with them not handpicking the future political leaders of Europe but supporting them, that will give the courage, I believe, to people. So Nigel, we're watching him shift. By the time it comes to the election, a hell of a lot more is going to go wrong in this country. So people aren't, are going to be screaming for change, real change. Not talking about stop the boats, Nigel. Yeah. Because that's not going to address this issue. The demographic change to this country has to be addressed. It's what, not, it's what Donald Trump's now talking about. Yeah. Now, you couldn't address it without Donald Trump talking about it. As Donald Trump mainstreams it, as mass deportations have been mainstreamed, as the Somali migrants who are causing havoc in America are about to be addressed due to Donald Trump, that makes it more palatable and acceptable and more tolerable for the British politicians who are going to come into power to do it. So the the shift has been insane. I think anyone watching it, mass deportations, you couldn't say that 24 months ago. Now everyone's saying it.

Would you want Christians to minorities mass deported? Part of that? No, I don't want. No. No. What about what about Jews? No. What about? No. I don't want individual Muslims mass deported. I want illegal migrants mass deported. I want criminals mass deported. Um, and I want problematic Muslims who wish to overthrow democracy and replace it with Sharia. I want them gone. I want the 40,000 on terror watch list. Half of them have got dual nationality. They've got to go. I want any of them that step out of line in our country. I think we need to stop pretending it's everyone's country. It's Britain. It's our country. These people who have come from Pakistan, they've come from Somalia, they're guests in our country. You're guests. And if you step out of line, just like the United Arab Emirates do, they take their passports off them. [ __ ] about, you're going home. Yeah. That is the policy we need to have. That's where we should be. And when you start addressing that.

So when you, to be clear, so when you're talking about mass deportation, I'm not talking about deporting decent immigrants that have come here at all. I'm not talking about that. In fact, I'd fight for them. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I'm not talking about round up every non-white person. Literally, because nearly everybody that I work with at Speakers Corner, you know, like most of them are British, but a good half of them are are migrants. Yeah. No, you know, and as are as are most of the people I love. Yeah. As I said, and for people who Oh, look. Yeah. Because the the clickbait, you know, that the left would use is you, you want, you're talking about mass migration. So I just want to be clear about exactly where you see the limits of mass migr, sorry, mass deportation. If you come here legally, if you come here legally, I believe that if you come here legally, I don't know how long their visas are for, but I believe that the mass deportations is for illegal immigrants, criminals, jihadists. Um, I think we need to stop all Islamic immigration. People say there's a good engineer from Afghanistan. You'll find a good engineer from somewhere else that shares our values. Okay? Because do you know this whole debate, you would never Bob, we would never meet if there wasn't Islamic immigration to this country. We would never be having any of these discussions. No one would be moaning about any other immigrants. No one would be kicking off. It's just this conversation would be being.

There isn't, there isn't an anti-Polish, um, when we vote for Brexit, anti-Buddhist, anti-Sikh, anti-Pakistani Christian, anti-Hindu, anti-Jewish. I mean, there's always ethnonats who are always anti-Jewish, but like, you know, it is, it is a fair observation to make that there aren't accumulative movements building up to resist other religious groups. Well, that's because the problems aren't from the other religious groups. The problems are all from Islam.

Do you think, do you, what what do you think are, and I've only got 50 minutes and I've still got like 50 questions in my head that I want to ask you. So, now I'm struggling to to pick the the right ones. Um, obviously you've been accused of that. There's three accusations that I've I've heard being made against you that I'd like to give you the opportunity to to reply to. Okay. Um, I obviously, some of these I already know what you're going to say. And I suspect a lot of the people that watch them know what you're going to say, but it's just to get it on to map out your your your political worldview. Yep. Um, so, so four accusations. Accusation number one, you're a Zionist. What do you say to that? Yes, I'm a Zionist. And what does that mean to be a Zionist? It means I believe in a homeland for Jewish people. Okay. That's what it means to me. It means that they can defend themselves, but it means that there's 55 Islamic nations and the Jews can have one. And it means that biblically, historically, it's their land anyway. Yeah. That's it.

Now, the ethnonats, who I'm guessing, would you say you're against the ethnonationalists? Yeah. You would. The ethnonats would then use that as an argument and go, "Look, he's in favor of a Jewish state for Jews. So why can't we have an?" The Jewish state ain't for Jews. Israel is not for Jews. Israel has 2 million Muslims. Israel has loads of Christians all happily peacefully coexisting. It's the only place where actually at a 20% Muslim population actually works not too bad. But, um, it's not for Jews. In fact, the one, the one man, so when they talk about, what was his name? We looked it up when I was researching that. There was one Jewish politician who wanted it just for Jews and they destroyed him.

So when you talk about Zionist, he was a real Zionist and they destroyed him. Fundamentally Zionist. Fundamentally, but they destroyed him. Yeah. They [ __ ] him, man. So yeah, it's not a Jewish state. Yeah. Not an ethnically Jewish. It's not an ethnically Jewish state. Religiously Jewish. Well, religiously Jewish state. There's so many liberals there. And when I went there and the Druze community who love Israel. Christians who love Israel. There's Muslims who love Israel. Yeah. It's such a more complex issue. But for my, just to make it a simple point, yes, I believe that that land is Jewish and I believe that they should be able to live there and if anyone wants to [ __ ] around with them like jihadists, I believe they should be able to obliterate them. Yeah. And that's it.

Next accusation. You are a racist. Just total [ __ ] It's like it's. But why, why is it total [ __ ]? Because I despise racism. In fact, the real racists despise me. Yeah. As I said, I'm actually, like, there's just no truth in it. There's certain things that you can get an argument about with Islam and my views on that, but racism, I've never spoke about race. Remember, I went on a debate with a car. I'm doing it again. I went on a debate with a car and and he started talking about race and color. And I was like, I don't talk about racial color. I talk about Islam. You can be white, black, brown, yellow, whatever. So, no, I'm not a racist. Never have been, never will be.

Okay. And then the other accusation is that you're an Islamophobe. And by that, I'm going to define it. I know we're waiting for the Labour government's definition and that's terrible. Um, but I'm going to define it as, we'll give two definitions and you can respond to each. One, that you're against Muslims. No. Explain. I believe you should have, I believe stop talking about Islamophobia. You should have rules. Anti-Muslim hatred, maybe. Yeah, fair enough. But Islamophobia, just total nonsense. It's a made-up word in order to prevent us criticizing and legit telling legitimate discussions around Islam and the teachings of Islam. It's it's bought in in order to silence us, to to stop any debate around this issue, to put fear into people from talking about it. There's no such thing as Islamophobia. How come there's no Christian phobia? The reality is Islam. What is Islamophobia? There's no doctrine for it. Whereas Christian phobia, there's actually a whole book. There's a doctrine of phob of relentless hatred against Christians and it's in the Quran. So no, there is no such thing as Islamophobia. I never entertain it and neither should anyone else. I hear some other people, but they've put it into the mainstream now where people just take it that it means something. It don't mean anything. It means nothing. The word means nothing. There's no such word.

Do you think that people who support you need a bit of education to make clearer distinctions between Muslims, Islam, and between different kinds of Muslims? Or do you, do you think that there's no, do you think that there's a problem? I think it could cross over. You who perhaps don't make the same discretions or or distinctions that that you attempt to. I think it, it could cross over, but again, okay, let's have anti-Muslim hatred. Let's talk about anti-Muslim hatred. Let's not talk about Islamophobia, a phobia of talking about Islam. M Let's not. The real Islamophobia, if, if there was a meaning of Islamophobia, the real Islamophobia is is the fear that was put into the police from doing their job. Is the fear that that allowed a rape of generation of daughters. Yeah. That's the real Islamophobia. So no, but I am against anti-Muslim hatred, if people hating a Muslim for being a Muslim. Um, I always say to people and try to stress to people, separate the people from the idea because it, sin from sinner, just separate the two. Which, which you can separate the two. Christianity, you're allowed to criticize Christianity. You're allowed to mock Jesus. That doesn't mean you hate every mus, every Christian or want them dead. But with Islam, it's given this special protection that you can't talk about it. You can't talk about the Quran. Talk because you hate Muslims. It's like, well, I'm talking about a book or a figure from 1400 years ago. Some wrong. So I'm talking about that. Not talking about [ __ ] Muhammad who runs a shop, am I? He's a, he's a bloke. I'm talking about an idea here. And every idea has to be totally open for criticism, ridicule, everything. Islam's an idea. Like a very, very, very bad idea.

Okay. What about you're often accused by some people of being a grifter? Oh yeah, I'm a grifter. How would you respond to that? Um, why wouldn't I be a grifter? So I started the English fence in 2009. So people understand my history. At that time, I had seven properties and two businesses. I had a plumbing business, a sunbed shop, and seven houses between me and my wife. I was a young successful entrepreneur businessman. Yeah. I sacrificed all of that. Four years of the EDL. I lived under financial restraint. I went through police investigations. I got fined £125,000, which I had to pay. Had to pay through [ __ ] court cases. Yeah. In order to [ __ ] take everything. Yeah. So I went through all that. 2015, I get a job for the first time. So I didn't get paid a penny. We didn't have fundraising, crowdfunding with EDL. Yeah. We done it all through ourselves. In fact, I funded in those first couple of years, most of it with my own money because I had money. Yeah. Then we get through to 2015. I get a job as a journalist with Ezra Levant. For the first time, all of a sudden, I'm getting paid to do what I was doing. I'm, I've been an activist. Now I'm a journalist. Ezra's paying me. And people went on because I received £5,000 or dollars, can't remember which it was, a month for that time. Yeah. I was worth it. Yeah. I tell you what, 60 grand a year, people going to want to kill you. Police are going to harass you. You're going to sit in storage confinement. You're going to get attacked. Your kids ain't going to be able to even go to college. They're going to have nightmares at schools. You're going to be coming home to your family crying. Your mom's house is going to get attacked. You're going to do all that for 60 grand? No. Shut the [ __ ] up then. Yeah. Shut the [ __ ] up then. So, I was worth my money as a journalist. Yeah. Now, we fast forward on. I've wrote four books. Why wouldn't I sell them? Why wouldn't I tell people to buy my books? I'm unapologetically going to say, "Yes, I believe." Bearing in mind, I was made bankrupt. The mad thing is they say he's a millionaire. I was made bankrupt in 2021, you idiots. I lost everything. I've got nothing. Yeah. 2021. I'm, I currently have debts of nearly £300,000. So, people are going, "Oh, [ __ ] hell." It's like, "No, I have debts. I'm in debt now. M I'm in debt now. £187,000 for legal fees for the last case. So in my last case, when they give me 18 months in prison because it's civil, I've got to pay their costs. I haven't got 187 grand to pay their costs. I haven't got it. So, I work for a company who pay my expenses, travel, and people will say, "Oh, yeah, but it's like, and then, and then it's like, I think some people would only be happy if my family were in a total position where they have nothing, which is what the authorities have been trying to do, and they're vulnerable." Yeah. So, I am very grateful, very grateful because the only reason why I'm here and been able to fight the way I have is because people have supported my family. Yeah. When I went to jail, thank you if you're one of the people who supported my family. Without you, I wouldn't have even been able to carry on. Okay? I can carry on and I can fight and I can do what I do and I can take the risks I can do and if I got killed tomorrow, I know my family are going to be backed and supported. I confidently know that. Yeah. And then the accusation, so hope not hate the ones that push it. This whole he's a millionaire and they get it into public domain. So then, and the whole reason for this is the people don't support your work. Yeah. Because the ability to work is only if people support financially support it. How can we fund a team? How can we fund documentaries? How can we do all of this without people supporting us? So they tried to stigmatize you and try to demonize you and slander and liate you so that people don't support it. So I'm not a millionaire. Okay. Simple. I'm about to face bankruptcy probably again. Yeah. But I'm not going to apologize for trying to sell my books. Right. I'm not going to apologize for saying to people, if you financially support the company I work for, yeah, then we will do this or we to say like people said, oh, you asking money for United Kingdom demonstration, it cost £200,000. You [ __ ] like, how are we meant to pay it? How are we meant to put these events on? Now, bearing in mind, an average documentary, I'd say our documentaries probably cost about 50 grand to make. BBC cost million. Yeah. We're competing as citizen journalists with the big boys and we're outdoing them. Our work is better, our investigation's better, our content's better, our dedication's better, our commitment's better. So, if I earn a salary, if I do, which I do, I [ __ ] earn it. Yeah.

No argument from me. I, I, I do have one final question to end on and and that's just, you know, um, excuse my French as well because I keep swearing, don't I? Is it's, you know, what it is, cuz these sort, I just think I, I deserve, I deserve to do all right. I'm sitting here 43 years old with nothing. Yeah. With nothing. No one, no one can deny the commitment and the sacrifices speak for themselves. Um, he's always on holiday. Yeah. Cuz I ain't got a house. You [ __ ] cuz I can't rent a home. I live in Airbnbs. I get, I get you. Yeah. I get you. I wanted to give you a chance to. No, it's all right. I wanted to give you a chance to respond. So final question as as we're departing. So it's a much completely different change. How's it going with Jesus? How's it going with Jud? Jesus. Um, I need to do more. I, when I went to Israel, I found it fascinating as well. Do you know when you walk there, which I'd advise anyone to do. It's just, you get, do you know, I had a moment in Israel which I'd say was probably the biggest moment for me. I don't know if you saw it when Christians prayed for me. Yeah. So, I felt, I remember coming off, you know, I hear people talk about the Holy Spirit. I think I felt, I felt, I felt the Holy Spirit. I felt what the [ __ ] what is that? And I felt something. But I'm not perfect. And my thing with Christianity is I like to know everything or I talk about it. Yeah. So I like to research everything. I can sit and debate anyone on Islam because I know I feel like I know everything about it. There's not one corner of Muhammad or Islam I don't know. With Christianity, do I know every aspect of Jesus's life? Not yet. Um, I listen. I'm, I'm a good listener, not a good reader. Yeah. So, I listen. I watch videos. I've been listening a lot more to Jordan Peterson. Um, I've been listening a lot more. I found your just Bob. When I first saw you speak, I, I felt the fire and I felt and I saw something. I thought, what, what that, like, oh, follow that. I'll follow that. Whereas I'm looking thinking, so I always struggled. So with Jesus, um, I'm still on my own path. I'm still on my own path. I need to be a better Christian. By being a better man is being a better Christian. If you want to live in moral, if I want to be a good man, it's just being a Christian. Yeah. I struggle with that. Well, I mean, just, just so you know, not that I struggle with it, but I'm imperfect and I, I, I, I wish I would have got baptized recently in the Jordan River. I will go back, um, probably to the Jordan River and I'll probably ask someone who I've watched here to baptize me. Um, cuz I need to wash away lots of sins. [laughter] I, I think, I think you know, and, and I think being a better man, being my son, my son's pretty, my son took it on himself and always has with Christianity. Is your son a Christian? Yeah, he's just got, he's just, he's just got a big, he's only 16, so he shouldn't have done. And I was away and I just got a picture, he's got big Jesus on his, he's got big tattooed. I'm like, you're 16, how have you done that? But, um, but yeah, I think that my son always used to, my son always spoke a lot even before, but I think that, um, I think I'm on my own path, but I'm not perfect and I won't want to profess I'm a good Christian because I'm not. And I think that to live a perfect life, which is how I look at it now, to live a moral, clean, good life and be a good family man is just to be a Christian.

I, I want to, as we close, I want to give you a gift. Um, at the heart of the Christian life is prayer. Um, and when you were in prison, last prison, when you became a Christian, I actually bought you this with the intention of getting it to you while you were in prison. Thank you. Um, but you got out before I managed to get down there. And to be fair, that's partly my own idleness. Um, so it's a book of prayer. A book, um, morning and evening prayer. It's taken from the divine office. It takes a bit of reading, um, to figure out how to use it, but once you use it, you'll find that it'll enrich your prayers. And I want. I was shocked. John was shocked about how many Christians there are. When I was in prison, your movement has been always been supported by. When I was in prison, it was insane. I was like, "Everyone's a Christian. Everyone who wrote to me, everyone who took the time to write to me, the prayers, the beautiful words." So then I realized, geez, there's an army of people praying for me weekly, daily. Might be why you're still alive. Yeah, probably is. Yeah, because I probably shouldn't be with some of the things, even some of my own self, not self-harm, my own positions I put myself in, I probably shouldn't be it. Um, but when I, yeah. And then the importance of prayer and then, yeah. I want to, I want to, that is at the heart of the Christian life. Yeah. Is prayer. But we can get carried away, can't we? Because I can, I can sit and think, well, I need to be this and then I just get carried away and [ __ ] tornado through life. Yeah. So, so this is something to help your prayer life. It's my gift to you. Thank you, Bob. Thank you very much for your time, Tommy. No, thank you. And we wish you the very best. Thank you. God bless. Peace.