Transcription
We're back, all right? Yeah. How are you? Yeah, not bad, not bad. Uh, we're recording this on a Tuesday, and the football, the game week, uh, ended last night, and I had a terrible one. So that's sort of put a dampener there on Tuesday morning, but other than that, I'm fine.
Okay, you're talking about fantasy football, for those who don't know. Yeah, yeah. Um, I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but I run a fantasy football newsletter, and so there's slightly more onus on me to do well at fantasy football than perhaps the average fantasy football manager. So it's extra painful if I embarrass myself because it's slightly more public than it would be if it were just you, for example.
Jamie, that's, yeah, I get that. You didn't even need to be set up to plug your FPL newsletter then. That was a self-setup situation. That was a, it's like we're playing heads and voles, and I've just gone and done some kick-ups and volé, and that's not allowed. Yeah, no self-setups, no self-setups. Yeah.
So your FPL newsletter, so for those that might be interested, the minority of people out there that might be interested. I'm in that minority, by the way. I think it's great. Thanks, man. Uh, the newsletter and, and the game, you run a fantasy football newsletter business, and it has, how many subscribers at this point? It's got, we just passed 76,000. Nice, which is cool. Yeah, it sort of stagnates a little bit around this time of the year 'cause people start to fall out of love with fantasy football. So we'll get most of our subscribers for the whole year in August and September when fantasy football fever is at its highest. Yeah, yeah.
We'll do an episode about that one time, maybe, mate. That'd be nice. Not, not to sort of promote the newsletter, but to talk about building a, a sort of hobbyist newsletter that could be quite interesting for, for people, perhaps. Yeah, I like that idea because the, some of the rules are different, right? You can get away with a lot more. Say more often. People will pay for newsletters, believe it or not. Yes. I'm one of those. Again, only 'cause I am, uh, blackmailed you into it. Into the four quid a month. Yeah, the value of our friendship is emotional blackmail over four quid a month.
Um, so yeah, that, and what's that called for people who want to check that out? Oh, it's called Lazy FPL. So lazyfpl.com. If you Google Lazy FPL, you'll find us. Nice. And there's a free version and a premium version. There is indeed, yes.
Um, when you, you know, you can try before you buy with Lazy FPL. It's like the, the tasters at the Morrison's counters. You can, you can have a little bit of cheddar on the cocktail stick before committing to our whole wheel. I always feel embarrassed going for those free tasters. Do you? Yeah, I do. Are you shameless? Oh, I, I'll be like, oh, I've got a mate over there. I'm just going to grab two. And then there is no mate. There is no mate. It's just the story of your life, I think. Where I remember going around supermarkets with you when we were young teenagers. It would, it would be after school. It would be me, me, you, and your mom, just walking around Sainsbury's. And I remember you would take things off the shelf and eat them, and then put the wrapper in your mom's trolley. And then she would check out with you all the empty wrappers that you'd snacked on. Yeah, I was edgy. Yeah. And I thought that was, that blew my mind. I thought, this is borderline stealing. Of course, it wasn't.
I tell you what I would do, though, that technically was stealing. This is actually gross in hindsight. I, I feel kind of feel ashamed admitting this. Maybe we can cut this out. I would take grapes from their P.E.T.s 'cause they used to, I don't know whether this is still the case. I feel like every, every grape P.E.T. now is sort of cellophane shut, but they used to be open plastic bags of grapes that you could just pick up and shove in your trolley. I haven't seen those for a while, actually. I know. I don't know what, I don't know what happened to those. But anyway, I would pluck off grapes from those on my way around. Um, you know, nobody's paying for those. Okay, so we'll keep that in. But what's the statute of limitations for grape theft? I don't know. Um, and you're the reason why now they have to sell cellophane those things shut. That's so true. They, they call me, um, Grape Theft Auto. We'll call that. Oh, so good. What a start to the pod. Should we just end it now? Just finish on a high. Yeah, there's no email marketing advice in this one, just confessions. Yeah.
We do an email confessions episode one time as well. That would be good. Where people just, where we talk about where we're [ __ ] up or, yeah, like most embarrassing things. We can get people to submit their own. Everyone's got an email confession, I think. Even if it's not an email marketing one, like you just sent a work email to the wrong person. You know, there'll definitely be some. 'Cause emails are rare in the internet world, 'cause you can't take them back. Which, which lends itself nicely to embarrassment. Does once we've got a following big enough? Yes. Once we actually have listeners to submit their confessions, yeah, then we'll get them to do that, and we'll have some juicy stuff, I'm sure.
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Yeah, what are we going to talk about today, Jamie? So I wanted to talk today about cold emailing, and why it's very, very different to what we do at The Inbox Club. Um, and why it's very different to opted-in marketing email. And so I wanted to highlight some of the key differences between cold sales email campaigning and opted-in warm newsletter marketing and CRM. Brilliant. Yeah. And you suggested this, and I think partly, without wanting to put words in your mouth, part of the inspiration for that was that you are regularly having conversations with people that might want to work with The Inbox Club, and there can sometimes be a conflation between what we do and cold email campaigns, where actually there is quite a big difference. Would you agree with that? Yes, absolutely. And I think people come to us because they think we do both. And for a long time, when we started, people always assumed that email marketing meant that we bought or scraped email data, and that we would do these kind of sales lead gen campaigns, which, which isn't what we do. Um, and, you know, then we have this hybrid of the worst of two worlds, where people might buy or scrape data and then use that data to send their newsletter to, um, which is probably the worst thing out of all, you know, all three options. So that's kind of, I wanted to highlight the difference between those two things and, and talk a little bit about how you can do each thing well separately, and the place that they have in, in the marketing funnel for, for a little bit as well. Nice.
So it leads on from a conversation I had very recently. Uh, and the conversation went something a little bit like this: "I want to do some email marketing. I want to start a newsletter. I'm going to send one once a month. I don't have an email list. What do you suggest in terms of buying data, email data, scraping it from somewhere like LinkedIn, uploading it into something, you know, an email platform like Mailchimp or, you know, countless others, and then sending my newsletter to those people?" Uh, and at that point, I had to say, "We need to take several steps backwards here because that, you cannot do that." You know, I think there's, in terms of like GDPR, there's, there's gray areas, and you can get away with doing that, but in terms of impact, you know, having a positive impact and doing something worthwhile, you know, it's, you should, you, you can't do that. So we need to take that several steps back and firstly, we need to think about where we're getting our list from. And so I've talked there about buying or scraping, and then what I haven't talked about yet is growing a list, an email list organically, of people that have opted in, and they want to hear from you. So that, that's the first differentiation. Yeah.
The next one is the proposition of the emails that you'll be sending. And so if we have this warm opted-in marketing list, we need a proposition for the newsletter. Why should these people opt in? Why should they say, "Okay, I willingly make this exchange of my data and permission to email me with the value that you say you're going to offer me through your newsletter?" Um, you know, what is that proposition? We need to work on that a little bit. And when it comes to cold emailing, you know, we aren't cold email experts, so you have to take what I say here with a pinch of salt. But usually, those, those kind of campaigns are further, um, towards the top of the funnel. So we're talking about awareness here, we're talking about acquisition. Whereas in opted-in email marketing, we're further down the funnel. People have made that exchange, they're warmer, they're people that know you, um, they understand what you do and the value that you can offer, and saying, "Okay, I'm, I'm ready to hear from you more often." So we have to think about these two things and, and really separate them. And what we do is this one that's further down the funnel. People are opting in, people are, um, saying, "I'm, I'm, I want to hear from you more often." So, yeah, it, it would be strange to start sending sort of warm, familiar emails to a list that has never heard of us and isn't expecting to receive our emails.
Jamie, when people talk about email marketing being dead, which is a sort of hipster phrase that you sometimes come across, I suspect that what the people that say that really mean is that cold email marketing is dead, or at least dying. That the impact of cold email is lessening, because partly because of the sophistication of email browsers like Apple Mail and Gmail to suppress those emails, but also because of the intelligence of the average recipient now being higher, that, you know, because we're so literate when it comes to what looks like a dodgy, unsolicited email and what doesn't. That's having an impact on open rates and the engagement that these cold email campaigns get. By the same token, even though we don't do cold email campaigns, that's not to say that we completely denigrate them as a medium for, as you say, that top-of-funnel activity. So what are your reflections on the effectiveness of cold email campaigns in 2025?
I think they're still powerful. I, I still think it's a lever that you can pull as a, as a business owner. We just have to understand, we really have to separate the two forms of, of email, you know, marketing, if you want to call them email marketing. We have to separate them. And when we separate them, we change our expectations of how they will perform, and also on what the return is that we expect from those as well. So we, um, we partner with a, with an agency who, who specialize in, in cold outreach and lead generation and sales consultancy. And, you know, they get good results. And so I do believe in it as a, as a tactic that you can use. But what are we expecting from those things? Okay, we're expecting open rates that are really low. You know, for the, in the first instance, we're, we're expecting open rates which are, you know, perhaps single-digit percentage compared to a warm opted-in list, who we're hoping to get, I think we said in the previous episode, you know, 30% is the minimum for a healthy list, and then we want to be aiming for the, you know, 40, 50, and the dizzy heights of 60, if we can. You know, so we can see there a very stark difference in open rates, um, when we think about clicks and replies. You know, those are really, really small. And we have to think, okay, what are we expecting people to do having received these emails? When we send a cold lead gen email, we're expecting inquiries and leads, um, or you can go down a route of saying, okay, well, we're going to do this no-agenda outreach campaign where we just give something away for free, because we're at the top of the funnel here, we're not expecting to close people straight away. And when we think about newsletters, if we strip away CRM for a second, if we just think about sending a newsletter, what are we expecting from that? Okay, well, we might expect maybe one day someone might reply and say, okay, um, I've got an inquiry for you. More likely is that it's one part of your marketing mix, that's just another touch point that's, you know, demonstrating your expertise, building familiarity, um, building relationships, and that it will be one touch point among many that will eventually convert that, that person. And we will talk about ROI in an episode recorded later today, won't we, Jamie? So we can get more into ROI and what you can expect. And the sort of, that's James telling me off for going off-subject and planning a future episode. They're very closely related, but I, I don't want to give the impression that we're skirting over ROI when it comes to newsletters or cold email, um, because we will talk about the ROI of newsletters in a, in a dedicated app. Yeah, for sure.
So, one, one big difference, it, we, we need to talk technically and logistically, how we treat these two separate forms of email. I, I really hesitate to say email marketing, because I really believe that one is sales emails and one is marketing emails, you know? Um, but, and I don't want to contribute to the, um, to the, um, kind of, I don't want to contribute to this image of them being both being email marketing, because that just, it dilutes what we do as a business. But we have to treat these separately, um, in different ways. So when we think about cold emailing, we have to do things that protect the business, where we have to set up a subdomain or a completely separate domain to send emails from, in order to protect our main domain. And the reason we have to do that is because the engagement metrics are low for cold emails. You're likely to get spam complaints, high unsubscribes, and all of those things will contribute to damaging your sender reputation, which means if you're using your main domain, that your day-to-day emails that you're just, you know, talking to suppliers, partners, and customers, you know, that the sender reputation for those emails will be damaged, and you'll end up in spam for your daily emails. So we have to set up this new domain. Once we set up the new domain, we have to warm it as well, which takes some time and effort. Um, you know, when we're talking about marketing emails, we aren't doing it. It's not a failure-based system. Marketing emails, like, like cold outreach, marketing emails are much warmer, and people are expecting them. So you're not going to get spam complaints, uh, your unsubscribes will be lower, your engagement metrics will be much higher, and so we don't have to worry so much about protecting our main domain. If there's, as you're treating people and data responsibly, you know, we don't have to worry about protecting our main domain. Um, some, some email marketers will argue that it's good practice anyway to set up a separate domain or a subdomain for email marketing full stop. I would argue if you're doing it right, you don't need to. What, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean, what we're talking about here is deliverability, isn't it? And the things that you've just mentioned there, spam reports, the number of unsubscribes, your engagement, all of that stuff contributes towards this picture that email servers are building of your sender reputation. And what we really want to avoid is that sort of digital wanted poster that's up on the, you know, the outside of the, the, the Gmail wall that says, "Don't let these guys in." And, you know, so I, so I agree with everything you've said there. I do wonder, Jamie, let's imagine that you have built, built up a list of, say, a thousand opted-in subscribers through legitimate means. You haven't bought them, they've opted in through your website or or whatever the channel might be, but you've never emailed them before. Do you also need to think about domain warming in that instance if you do suddenly want to start pelting them with weekly newsletters?
You're definitely in a better position than I am to answer this question, but my, my answer is yes. We want to start slow and in batches at that point. You know, I guess a thousand is, is kind of that number where it's, it's not too small and not too big in terms of, you know, when we think about domain reputation and and deliverability. But, you know, if it's bigger than that, we certainly want to think about sending in batches and monitoring, you know, performance metrics piece by piece. Um, if we have any previous data based on who we know is engaged or not, then we can use that to send to the most engaged people because that will send the right signals and we do that first. Um, but, you know, there is an element of, of domain warming that needs to happen there as well. Yeah, I agree. Uh, you, you've, you've nailed that, I think. Yeah, a thousand is a slightly awkward number to offer you because it, as you say, it's sort of on the cusp of being big enough that you should consider domain warming, but not so big that it's, it's essential. Uh, I would say 5,000 and above is, is, is certainly then you need to be, um, you need to be domain warming. And a lot of email service providers will help you with that process as well. At Beehiiv, for example, there, there are some automated features you can use for domain warming that mean that it sort of happens in the background without you necessarily knowing about it. Um, so, uh, yes, uh, domain warming, super important if your list is big enough, regardless of whether it's a list that you've acquired via purchasing one or whether it's a list that you've acquired via the sort of opted-in acquisition.
Yeah, Jamie, go on. You go. No, I was only going to add there that I think if you, if you've gathered this opted-in list, like you were saying, and there's a thousand people, but you haven't emailed them before, they start to then, that data starts to age, right? Um, and people will move on. Uh, they're not at those email addresses anymore. Um, people might have forgotten. And so, you know, what with thinking about is, are people expecting to hear from you? And the older that data is, the less people on there, there will be that are expecting to hear from you. I would, I would argue if you, if you haven't got, if someone signs up, you don't have a welcome email, and then you haven't emailed within, um, two, three months, that people won't expect to hear from you. Agreed. And we have completely forgotten. Even, you know, that might even be too long. Yeah, that's a really good point. I think that's particularly pertinent when we think about B2B lists as well, because emails expire at a much faster rate in the B2B world because people move companies more frequently. In a way that you've probably had your personal email for years, you might not have had your business email for nearly as long. Jamie, how long have you had your personal email for?
Um, I think I've had mine. I remember creating a new one when I was searching for a job because I had a quite embarrassing childhood one. When I, yours Norwich Freak, Norwich Freak. I still have that. That's still live, so you can get me on that if you, uh, if you want. But no, I think I changed it when I was about 21, 22 or something. So I've had that one now for 11, 12 years. Going to make a joke there and say 30, 35 years, but, uh, because for the listeners, for the listeners, for the watchers, will see that I'm positively youthful. So Jamie wouldn't have abandoned well.
Um, yeah, okay. So, yeah, so that's a, that's a long time. And if you're a consumer opting into an email list, um, it may be that you, you know, you're, you're not going to move emails for, for a long, long time. And when you do receive an email finally from, from the brand or the, the business that you've signed up for, uh, that it, it won't come as a huge shock to you. I think B2B works slightly differently in that, yeah, you've probably got an expiry date of, let's say, an average of between 18 months and two years for a standard, uh, business email. And, and, and that, uh, that means that theoretically speaking, if you're not emailing a list for a year or two, it might be that only 50% of them are still about by the time you, you get around to it. Yeah.
There are, there are pieces of software we can use, by the way, to, to verify how many email addresses are still legit. The one we use is called NeverBounce. And wait, is it? NeverBounce? Yeah, I think it is. You can spill all of our corporate secrets, that's fine. Um, yeah, I think it is called NeverBounce. Um, and you can, you can just verify your email data through that for, for a fee. Yes. Um, it's very good. Yeah, it is good.
You, you said something earlier on about the phrase that some people use in that email marketing is dead. And I don't know if I properly addressed that question that you, you posed at the time. Um, I, I think half of the people that say email marketing is dead are email marketers that want to hook for their LinkedIn post. And so they say, "Email marketing is dead," and then they actually prove the opposite the rest of their post. Uh, and then there are the other half people that for some reason care enough to shout about the fact that they think email marketing is dead. And I think those people are, they are the people that have experience as the receiver of emails and not as senders. You can ask any e-commerce store in, in, in the world, they will tell you that email marketing certainly isn't dead, because of the amount of revenue that it's pulling in through that channel. People who send newsletters, most people who, even I think people are very well educated on the reason why they should be sending a newsletter and they can see the value in it. So my feeling is that when people say email marketing is dead, they are probably talking about, uh, cold emails, you know, sales lead gen emails, because you, I, I only have to open my spam folder and most of them are. Most of the emails that I get from campaigns like that are in there. Um, and if that's because those people won't have followed best practices when it comes to cold emailing, and a lot of them won't have done any research into who I am, what, what I do, um, and so it just falls completely on deaf ears. It's irrelevant. It doesn't, it doesn't offer me any value whatsoever. And, and, you know, from my point of view, I actually think that I prefer at that point to say, we, we need to, people need to shift what, how they think about cold emailing, and they need to treat it like they would treat their social media channels. You don't post on your social media channels saying, "Buy this, buy that. We do this, we do that." You know, on social media, you're often posting things that are valuable, entertaining, um, you know, we've got to think about that as top of funnel when we do this cold emailing stuff. Um, but I will just say that caveat again, we aren't cold email sales lead gen experts. Um, we are email marketing experts. So we have something to say on, on, on it. But when, when people say email marketing is dead, I assume that that's what they're talking about, especially post GDPR.
And I think when we think about where the world's going, you know, every time Google rolls out an update, it's to improve the experience of the person using one of their products, right? And I think the same goes for Gmail, and no doubt Apple will have similar priorities. And that what they really want is to ensure when people go to check their emails, they're getting the stuff that is relevant to them, and they're not seeing the stuff that isn't. And so I think with every new update that's rolled out, and email moves relatively slowly in the grand scheme of things compared to to other things like SEO and social media, but whenever an update is rolled out or whenever a tweak is made in the way in which Gmail or its its cousins interpret the quality of an email coming in, it's going to be to move away from those cold emails and towards more high-quality comms that Gmail users have actually opted in for. And I think that's important to bear in mind, because in five years' time, if we're having this conversation, we're not going to be in a world where suddenly people are receiving more spam and cold email has made a resurgence. I think that would be very unlikely, because it's not in Google's interest or Apple's interest or Microsoft's interest, uh, to promote this sort of stuff. They want people hanging out in their inbox for longer, because people are using their products for longer, and sticking within their ecosystem for longer, and that's all good for, for Google.
Yeah, and, and look, I guess the rules are very different when, when depending on what country you're in. And if we have made, if our podcast does make it over the Atlantic, and for some reason we have listeners in the States, then, you know, I think their approach to, uh, data protection is different because they've got different legislation. And I'm also been told that it's different state to state as well, which confuses things. Um, but, you know, it would be very hard for, for the UK, for example, to then make a backward step in data protection and say, "Okay, well, actually, we're going to get rid of these regulations." Um, it would be very hard. So I think once that, like you're right, once that step has been taken, you know, that's kind of, okay, this is the new world now, and this is what we have to get used to. And it's, it's for, it's for the better, right? Even as email marketers, we can say it's for the better that this, that those regulations came in, because it makes the inbox a better place.
Yeah, it's exactly what we want as newsletter senders. I think one important thing to stress, and we've sort of touched on this a couple of times, but haven't really gone into much detail, is is GDPR. If you're listening to this and you are a B2C brand, the idea of scraping data and then sending, uh, cold emails with it saying, "Buy my product," or, you know, "Sign up for my yoga class," or whatever, is an absolute no-no. If you are a business and you want to sell to other businesses, for example, you should become a client of mine, for example, or you should read my ebook about list growth, any of those things. GDPR, as Jamie mentioned earlier, is more of a gray area. GDPR is there to protect the data of the individual, but not businesses. And so if it's a business email, you are allowed to cold email them under the terms of GDPR, which is why every, everyone listening in the UK will have received emails to their business account that say, "Quick question?" and other such cold email clichés. And we'll probably get those every day. And that's because it's absolutely, there's no GDPR rules being broken by doing that.
I think if I was to, uh, you know, offer one more point on this subject, the, we talked a little bit about the technical side of these things and how they are, how things operate slightly differently. You know, we also need to use different platforms as well for these types of things. Things. There are platforms that are built specifically for cold emailing, lead gen, and there are platforms that are built specifically for newsletters and CRM. Um, and so we need to, if we're going to do both, we need to have the right tech to support those activities. Uh, and then we can, we can integrate them, make them talk to each other, and work together. But we've got to, we've got to treat the data with some difference. We've got to treat the process with difference, otherwise neither will have the impact that you, that you want from it. Um, so if I was to sum this up, because we're getting towards half an hour. Cold sales lead gen emailing, opted-in warm marketing emails, and CRM newsletters, very different, two different things. They have different processes, they have different goals, they have different places in the funnel. And one thing you definitely cannot do is mix the two into a hybrid where you say, "I'm going to procure data of people that aren't expecting to hear from me, and then for some reason expect that they want to feed my newsletter." Nice.
Okay, is that, is that also your hot take, Jamie? That was quite long for a hot take. Do you know what? If you hadn't said that, I'd have forgotten to do hot take again. Shall we do? Should we do hot take?
Okay, hot take. Should I go first or you want to go first? Um, I would like you to go first 'cause I haven't thought of one yet. Okay. I haven't needed either, but let's just, I'll just shorten what I just said. Okay. Sure. Uh, so my hot take is that email marketing is not dead, and that we need to separate our thought processes from sales emails and marketing emails. Lovely.
Okay, I'm, my hot take is going to be that it's, it's, it's similar to yours, because yours is quite, quite wide-ranging there. Mine is going to be, um, no, no, no, it's all good. Mine is going to be, um, consider the technical implications of cold emailing that might catch you out if you don't. Nice.
I, well, I don't know if there were hot takes to what we just did. They were like sizzling takes. Sizzling implies even hotter than hot. Do you think? Yeah, I would say sizzling is like, you know, when they bring the dish out in a restaurant and like everyone looks 'cause you can hear it. Yeah, it's like really hot. I'd say sizzling. Extra hot, in fact. I would even argue that the sound effects used to introduce the hot take section is a sizzle. Yeah, it might be, but although it's kind of flamy. Yeah, true. It's more maybe it's more campfire. Yeah, I don't know. You're saying it's lukewarm. Lukewarm tap. Lukewarm is, I think, probably. It's more than lukewarm. Okay. Sorry. Between lukewarm and sizzling, smoldering. You're small. Thanks, mate. I mean, it's hard, is it? It's hard to, it's hard to do a, a really hot take on a, on a topic like cold emails. Yeah, I mean, they're called cold emails for a reason, right? They're not called hot emails. We... Okay, that's it. We can end on that one.
Thanks for listening. Oh, and I've got to do my sales bit here. We don't do cold emailings and lead gen. We know a very good agency that do. Uh, and we partner on some projects. We do newsletters, CRM, we do email marketing where people have opted in and they want to hear from you. Um, and that's us. That's Jamie, James, The Inbox Club. That's the sales piece. Also, uh, R, give us a rating. Apparently, you have to ask for a rating. Yeah, okay. So what is it? You can find us on all your favorite podcast streaming services. Well, people know that if they've got this far and they're listening. Okay, that's true. Sorry. Um, so if you're on Spotify, give us five stars. The good news, go through each one and say, yeah, if you're hearing this, if you're listening to this, and you've got this far in the podcast, that means you're eligible now to rate five stars in Spotify, because you have to have listened to at least some of an episode. Yeah. So when I asked my wife to rate me five stars on Spotify, she had to actually listen to some of the podcasts. She, yeah, she actually did. She was in the car, and she told me she listened to, I think she listened to three episodes back to back. Oh, and I rang her halfway through, like, episode two, and she said she felt star-struck. She had been listening to me on Spotify, and then I was reading her. I think she's being kind, that poor woman.
I also have a quick shout out 'cause whilst we were recording this episode, we had an email from a guy called Jack, uh, from an agency called, uh, 48.1. And he emailed to say, "Guys, really enjoying the podcast. It's, uh, easy and entertaining to listen to," and that's not easy to achieve, something along those lines. So shout out, thanks for that. Happened whilst we were recording. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you were talking about something boring, so I was checking my emails. What you doing? Oh, that's nice. Cheers, Jack. Cheers, Jack. Anyway, we'll slip you that fee later, mate. Yeah, I think I actually promised the ten, but we'll see if we can get it down the price.
Also, just a quick apology for me, 'cause I'm, I've just realized that I haven't had my mic switched on. I've had my, this has been recording on my Mac. Jamie, I know, I know. This is so professional. I hope so. The quality is not going to be as good. Okay, well, that just means your coughs, that you, the cough that you still haven't shaken won't be as visceral, so that's fine. Yeah, exactly. Okay, we're going to go into recording in the next episode now, so maybe plug it in. Yeah, yeah, it's plugged in. It's just, yeah. Okay. Anyway. Okay. All right. Thanks for listening, guys. Catch you next time. Bye.
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