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If you're not investing in your workforce, what are you doing all this for? Because you're not gonna How do I put this? You're not gonna end up with no employees. Doesn't matter what what kind of work you're in, what kind of industry you're in, you will have employees. And do do you have a plan for them?
It's time certainly for executives to consider whether they're following the right path of investing in AI. Um if they are investing in AI and there's no way back, um they need to come up with a plan. If they don't have one, they're risking a huge productivity crisis.
>> Today on the Tech Report, I'm joined by the tech journalist Natasha Bernau. Thanks for coming on as always.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> With Meta laying off 10% of its staff today, I want to take a look at a possible light at the end of the tunnel. with Gartner, the business and technology researcher. They released a report this week which says starting in 2028, AI will create more jobs than it is supposed to eliminate. And businesses who fail to invest in developing their employees skills won't have a workforce to fill the jobs that AI would then create. What do you think people who've been saying AI is coming for you and your career and there's going to be an a job blood bath that kind of thing like Dario Day or even Microsoft AI chief just the other day said something similar. What do you think they'll be thinking when they read this report?
>> Um I think they'll probably still think that they're right to be honest with you. Um I I think you know there is a blood bath. I mean we are seeing loads of layoffs that are happening and those aren't um losing pace. Um, I I think the the really interesting thing about this Gartner research is is this idea that to successfully leverage AI is to think about what kind of roles and skills you're going to need in the future and invest in that. And it doesn't feel like a lot of companies are doing that. And I think, you know, people people like, you know, these tech leaders um that have been, you know, promoting the idea of this doomsday scenario of AI taking all our jobs. I really hope sincerely that they think about this at the moment and and say do I actually have a plan for this myself because it's all well and good to you know scare people and you know give out all these big messages of of of you know everyone's going to be made redundant because AI is going to do this and that. Um but it feels like there is a different alternate path. Um and and if they have got any solutions to the problem they should they should also be talking about that at this point. uh because I feel a lot of companies are in that weird gray space where they've invested in AI or they're thinking about investing in AI, but they haven't necessarily invested in people's careers or in the skills that they're going to need to capture some of these jobs that um AI is supposedly going to be creating.
>> This study broadly tracks with what you and I have kind of been saying for a little while that without upskilling your workers and bringing that workforce along with you in the process of adopting AI into your business, you're going to lose out heavily in the long run. And what do you think will be the wakeup call for executives who right now expect a big payoff from AI but have no real plan of how to achieve it?
>> I think there'll probably be two things varied maybe um maybe it will happen both will happen to the same sorts of of business leaders. Uh maybe it'll be one or the other but I feel there's two things when they find themselves with the AI that they might need but they haven't bothered to develop any human capabilities that will take them to the next level. um or when they realize that they can't just bolt on AI to their practices and expect new skills to reveal themselves. I feel like a lot of people are falling into that that bracket. Um there was a lot in this Gartner research which I thought was super interesting talking about the sort of specifics that companies should be considering at the moment you know saying okay AI is augmenting or automating many core tasks that means that CHRO's and business leaders need to to have a more deliberate approach to building critical skills they need to identify the the skills that they're going to need and depp prioritize the ones that are going to be made obsolete. Now I I'm just going to speak as as someone who has been watching this industry for a long time. Um in my experience there has been especially in during this wave of AI a lot of willingness to invest in the AI from top level management. There's not been a lot of thought behind it about what actually that means um to to to the business to you know what that means to the skills and the people that are having to use it or in fact whether those um whether those bits of tech are useful to people on a day-to-day basis. So, I sincerely doubt that those conversations about the key skills that we're going to need moving forward are happening. Um, I would love that to be the case and if um our listeners and our viewers have have examples of that happening in their businesses, I'd love to hear about that as well in the comments section, but I haven't seen that. So, I think that the big the big situation that is likely to be occurring is we've got a company that's invested a massive amount of money in AI. The AI has been deployed. They're seeing some form of gains. Maybe I'm I'm being optimistic here. Um, but they're certainly not thinking about what happens next. And so if they do need to perform layoffs, they're doing that without necessarily thinking ahead a few steps of what happens when we've automated all the all the things we need to automate. What are the critical skills that we need to cover? And do the people that we're laying off possess those skills? because this garden of research is is arguing that a lot of the skill set um mindset of the people that are putting people in charge of certain things whether it's managerial or leading teams are not the same as what has historically been the case. So they're saying you have to think outside the box you have to think differently and honestly both those things are things that I know that businesses struggle with. Thinking outside the box and you know thinking creatively is not something that necessarily is is prevalent in in the business world at that level. Um, and so I'm really interested to see how how things progress given that this this is a significant report and it does echo, you know, other reports that have been out there for a little while now. You know, BCG did a report um in April that said in the next two to three years, 50 to 55% of jobs in the US will be reshaped by AI. Um this will mean that according to BCG that people will have the same or similar role but require radically new expectations for how they work and what they produce. Um and again it's calling for businesses to create a clear vision of how that transformation is going to be managed including a scaled strategic approach to upskilling and reskilling and restructuring of career ladders internally. if this is happening, I'd love to know, but I really don't think any of this is is happening yet. Um, so I believe this will be a wakeup call for a lot of businesses who don't have a plan and who are thinking um, you know, we're at the initial stages of all this. I can think about this later. The answer is not to think about it later, to think about it now and have that plan in place.
If businesses don't pay attention to this wakeup call, do you think they're risking some kind of productivity collapse from the burnout workers are feeling from being oversaturated with AI tools and the unreasonable expectations that come with the investment that's gone into those AI tools supposed to be being replicated in the output?
>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you said it, I agree with it. They're risking a huge productivity crisis. We're already seeing a movement of of workers who are in an awkward situation of being partially managed by AI or having, you know, uh quotas to meet regarding AI and they are now transforming the way that they work creatively. Um I may add to try to meet that meet those expectations so that they don't lose their jobs. And so we're seeing an evolution towards performative um work. uh we're seeing an evolution towards burnout as people's, you know, workload increases massively. We've talked many a time on this show about um the research that's already been done into how AI increases people's workload rather than helps with the workload. And the sort of fallacy of the argument of, you know, AI is going to free you up to do more interesting things. You know, is a double-edged sword. Yes, it might free you up from doing more mundane tasks, but it means that you're full-on working on very complicated tasks, the most complicated tasks you might have in your job all the time, which leads to burnout. And so, um, yes, I I do feel that you're absolutely right on on that front. Yeah, we we're going to be facing a lot of that. Um, it does it does feel also that we're not at the end of like the introduction of AI tools um and unreasonable expectations regarding that. It feels like we're at the beginning of the bell curve of that. So, I'm interested to see what will happen with regards to people's attitudes toward work. I feel like a lot more people will be thinking about quitting and even joining businesses that don't require them to use AI. That might be a really good way to attract talent actually. Um, if if companies are thinking about standing out amongst the crowd, if they if they try to attract all the people that feel either agnostic or very negatively towards AI, you might find yourself having a bit of a competitive edge when attracting talent that has felt very um put upon with this movement. Uh, and I'd be interested to see if that that becomes a thing, too.
>> I'm always reminded now of that worker who was laid off from Oracle who said easier was just a euphemism for doing more work. And I think that kind of really really gets to the heart of it.
>> Yeah, it does.
>> The the Gartner study also argues that performance at work can no longer be seen as a a ready sort of proxy for being ready for more senior roles as people can use AI to meet goals and tasks that would otherwise not have been able to achieve without upskilling or or developing professional skills. Leaving aside kind of what that means for the executives, where does that leave employees who want to develop professionally but are being told or even forced through quotas or things like that to use AI instead?
>> It's a really really difficult situation to put people in. Um, a lot of people who have, you know, worked with AI or AI tools, um, over the last few years might find themselves, you know, on a career ladder that they that they, you know, were hopeful would lead to promotions, would lead to more opportunities, and might find themselves stuck if they're not able to uh, meet, I suppose, the the whatever criteria um, their company has decided the AI will will evaluate evaluate them under or they'll be evaluated under by using AI. So it feels the game has changed. You know, it's no longer about those soft skills. It's not necessarily, you know, I remember when I started out, it was about, you know, how well you did your job, how many scoops you got, for example, as a journalist, you know, what how well, you know, did you do getting interviews with exclusive people? Um, in in the world of corporate, it's about, you know, managing client expectations. It's about outcomes. It's about measurable, you know, performance output. You know, have you done that project really well? Have you, you know, performed really well for a client? have you had really good feedback? Um, you know, in the world of of work and manufacturing, it's, you know, how efficiently have you been able to do this task? Um, and and then this AI um eruption in the workplace and and this this new world of work means that suddenly you have to figure out what it is that you're being evaluated on. if it's about using you know co-pilot or llama or you know ch chat GPT like what are the what are the bits of criteria that could get you ahead in the world of work and that suddenly ends up being a you have to spend an hour you know trying to give it tasks that might be useful to you have to somehow prove that the AI has has put you over the edge with a client or pushed your performance to the next level or you've created a personalized tool of your phone that is um that shows just your amazing prowess at using AI. Suddenly it's a completely different skill set and a different way of thinking and I feel so hard um because it's very personal to each organ organization and some of them have criteria that I feel personally is not entirely reasonable. So I I do feel for the people who are trying to get those promotions that are finding that those soft skills, people skills and and being good at their job is just no longer enough. Um it's it's really really really tricky. Um I don't really have any advice for those people aside from just try and sus out the system and get ahead of it as much as you can. Um and if it is if it does seem like the game is rigged, don't waste your time. U because that's not it's not going to become unrigged. It's not going to become easier. Um and you know for those who are being measured with performance um related AI reviews, good luck. That's what I've got to say. I guess it kind of goes back to what we were saying last week, but it feels like the the goal has shifted from being you've got to do well at your job to now you've got to do well at justifying why your boss has spent so much money on AI and just using AI to to somehow make it a worthwhile expense.
>> Yeah, this maybe also goes back to what we were talking about last week and and the labor movement stuff that we we've spoken about, but how can workers effectively advocate for themselves when the executive expectations are again? Yeah, just you need to just do more work to make what I've the decision I've made make sense.
>> Yeah, I remember seeing something on social media because I was I was about to fall into the same trap that the p the person um that that got quite rinsed for doing I won't even name names but there was someone who basically quite famous who said to people just quit just quit you don't like it quit um and that's a very easy thing to say but in this climate in this economy it's very very difficult pill to swallow for for people to um to just go ahead and quit their job even though that is the easiest thing to do on paper for your mental mental health and and to be able to get out of a situation where you feel you're being treated unfairly via AI which is a very difficult thing to to battle against. Um it it does feel that there are a lot of opportunities for people to uh see what's happening in other industries. I saw a fast company report which was amazing actually really really good one um terrible actually terrible report but a really good bit of reporting pardon me I must clarify it was terrible but it was it was it's basically they they talked to um Amazon workers who basically said that um they were finding that their interactions so when they had problems at work more and more of their interactions through HR they felt were being dealt with by automated systems. So they found themselves in a situation where if they had a a problem whether it's stress or uh concerns that they brought to HR uh it was at 62% of them thought that that you know that this situation was being automated their questions were being automated in responses um and and you know they they found themselves without being able to talk to a human being and I think when you have those sorts of examples there is there is a tipping point right I know we you know we all go to to to a job to and money. I know it's not a popular thing to to talk about. You know, a lot of especially in in the US that culture of like we really love our jobs and it's it's there's a passion. Of course, there is that, but ultimately you're going to get a salary. It does feel like in this climate if you're in a situation where as I said the system's rigged against you or you're in a situation where you know more and more um a AI tools are bolted onto what should be human processes um that might prevent you from protesting about something or discussing your performance or saying that something is unfair at work. Um I sincerely hope that it's not the norm across all industries for this to be the case. I don't think it is from what I've seen reported and what I know myself. But it does feel that that is a line, you know, that has been crossed in in certain companies and one that I would seriously consider just trying to find another job anywhere else if you can. Um, and if you and if you can't, you know, I mean, a lot of people are talking to different unions at the moment. Um, just kind of trying to shed light on what's happening and put a bit of pressure on. Um but yeah I mean here I am promoting one of the oldest organizations organizational structures in the world but um but yeah, it's it's very it's very difficult right you're talking about um a situation that a lot of people are facing for the first time in their jobs and it is a situation that although um it kind of replicates some of the unfairness you would have in a human system um it it's it's like turbocharged by AI you get an answer in seconds saying sorry no computer says no we don't care sorry about that Um, it's it's it's hard is basically what I'm what I'm trying to say. So, I I I would say there's going to be a lot of movement in the labor sector as people try to find an alternative to places that utilize these kinds of tools and I welcome that. I think companies they learn from feedback, they learn from people leaving. Um, yeah, that's my answer. I'm not sure it was very >> No, fair enough. No, no, fair. It's it is it's a difficult as I guess that's there difficult question because there is no real answer for no >> most people who can't afford just to uh what is it vote with their feet and just go somewhere better or if there is somewhere better in their industry >> it is hard but there are like you know policy you know lobbing policy makers lobbing politicians is not you know besid it's not beyond the point and you know we we have seen I mean there's there's cases of discrimination especially that are going to courts um in the regarding AI decision-m especially in the hiring process of it being agist um and racist. Um these kinds of these kinds of actions taking action um and kind of standing up for yourself although it's it's an extremely difficult thing to do is is something that will set precedent for other people in the world of work um and will make businesses think twice if they decide to automate these kinds of things and don't follow the letter of the law um on on you know people's rights at work. Um but yeah, hugely hugely difficult and gnarly subject for sure.
>> There's a video going around at the moment of the second person to get booed at a graduation ceremony after talking about AI in their speech. Do you think that the Gartner study and to be fair, I think a lot of uh business technology research has kind of glossed over the growing resentment that people have towards AI and the resistance that that will create.
>> Yeah, there's a whole generation of people who are entering the work force at the moment. Um, who have found themselves, you know, on the short end of the stick with regards to the pandemic, who have found themselves, you know, in a situation where AI is disrupting the labor market more than ever before in anyone's lifetimes. Um, and it's it's a really difficult situation. And I think you know these these booing at commencement speeches I mean the first one was that I saw was uh from a re real estate mogul um Gloria Corfield um she basically was talking at UCF's College of Arts and Humanities and she made the mistake of telling loads of humanity students that um the AI revolution was the next industrial revolution. Um and and you know one person shouted you know AI sucks you know and she was like oh let me finish let me finish you know um only a few years ago AI was not a factor in our lives and you know the crowd started to cheer and it it just goes to show that the sentiment of of people I love a bit of booing. I'm English so I love a bit of booing in public. I think there's nothing wrong with it and it does make people think twice. Yeah, the the the next video I saw and I'm assuming that that's that that's the person you're talking about is is um the former, you know, Google CEO Eric Schmidt who was booed during a commencement speech at the University of Arizona Arizona um last week. Um I think it was really interesting that one because um I could see, you know, I I could see the the the logic of people booing the entire thing from start to finish. Um, but I I thought what he said was actually quite interesting. And I actually I've written it down um on on my screen so I can read it out because I think you could read it two very distinct ways. Um if you just listen to what he's saying and it it kind of feels like at one point he's sort of saying, you know, if you want to do something about this, if you hate so much, you know, the future's in your hands. But he says, you know, there's a fear in your generation that the future has already been written. He said that the machines are coming, that the jobs are evaporating, that the environment is collapsing, that politics is fractured, and that you are inheriting a mess that you did not create. I mean, >> yeah, >> great. What wonderful insight. And he says, and I understand that fear, it's rational and it's amplified every day. He says by social media platforms that he says, you know, have learned that fear earns clicks and anxiety drives engagement. And then he says he says to you know to speak of the future as if it's already been decided is to surrender the one thing that actually matters which is your agency. Now look I know he's not involved in Google anymore but Google's a massive player in this AI race. Um, and you know, it is it is sort of like saying, you know, look I built like I've helped to build this, you know, this situation, you know, jobs are evaporating pretty bad isn't it? Pretty bad for you guys but, you know, the the future's in your hands. you can do something about that. And it it does feel I can I can understand to to some people like it's totally disingenuous for someone in his position to be saying something like that. Um, but it is also an interesting uh way of uh talking about something that he's created being like, oh, you know, if you hate it, it's in your hands to stop it. And I I'm intrigued to how people will take that message because, you know, we've seen a lot of backlash on personal levels in workplaces. um people campaigning in the streets against you know some of what AI um stands for and and you know the surveillance side of things especially has been hugely contentious within the media and within you know every part of the world especially as we've got lots of conflicts involving the US and involving AI happening at the moment and so I do feel that that sort of statement is is an interesting one uh from someone who has helped um you know build the empire that is Google and um yeah, I'm intrigued to to hear what actually the next generation is going to do about all of this because it is it is correct. You know, the the the progress of AI relies on information and people and if people if enough people decide they're not going to engage with it or they refuse to engage with it, that will be an interesting development for sure. Um and you know, I'm just I'm I'm intrigued. I know that you know I was a humanity student and I would not have appreciated hearing that in my commencement speech. I'll say that. Um, but yeah, it's very very difficult especially for those who are not in um in industries that are considered valuable anyway a lot of the time that are very underserved and you know underfunded to be hearing you know rah rah rah AI is so amazing all the time. Um, and you know, I think, you know, it's it's it's interesting that they that they wanted to boo, that they did boo. I think I approve of booing. That's all I've got to say about that.
>> There was a recent uh Gallup survey that found I think only 18% of those aged between 14 and 29 said that they felt hopeful about AI and generally have negative views that have been rising and and rising over for a little while now. And I was just wondering if public distaste and and the the shifting mood towards AI that is happening at the moment is something that could impact morale and be one of the biggest battles that AI model developers have to face is yeah selling it to a generation which are like like you kind of say coming into a world where they're like well I didn't create any of this mess. Why? What? What? What? I don't want to swear, but they're kind of like, "What? What? What the hell?"
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's It's a It's a hard one. It's It's interesting because I feel that some of the perceptions from businesses has has been the supposition that people who don't like AI are the people who kind of don't really know how to use it. And so they the new thing is the scary thing. But I guess this this sort of flies in the face of that, right? We've got a whole uh generation of young workers and you know young minds are are praised for the elasticity and their ability to um understand and learn new tools and techniques a lot faster allegedly than uh the generations that came before. Right? That's what the that's what the assumption is a lot of the time in the workplace. Oh, this young person's going to come and tell us how to do this and tell us how to do that, you know? um that's not true but it is it is the supposition and and and I feel that um that for for the people coming into into the workplace it is it's hugely unfair I would just say to assume that these young people who at the very start of their career who I feel are quite vulnerable because of the situation of the job market and not having any experience that that they would be able to draw from to get different jobs and jump from one place to the next would be the one setting the culture of of or the standards of how to use AI or not use AI in the workplace and sort of staging a rebellion. I think that is is very unfair to put that on their shoulders. Um I think you know people who are better placed in their careers who maybe are a bit more advanced and more senior um could could very much set the tone on that a little bit better and more fairly I suppose than than you know the intern or the or the work experience person or or someone who's just started then their first job. Um, I do feel though that that quiet rebellion we've talked about before, people who are doing the bare minimum, people who are setting tasks that they just really don't think are that useful, but at least it fits the criteria for what their company wants them to do with AI. I do feel that, you know, the more creative ways of rebelling in a way that doesn't feel like right, you know, refusal um could come from this gen this new generation of workers that can think of new and interesting ways of of of dealing with these problems precisely because of the this one reason. If you look at the um pyramid of work, a lot of the low-level work that is being automated would have traditionally been used to train these people in the workplace. And to me, I mean, I'm not even going to go into how unfair I find the fact that there you've got a lot of of people who would not have had the opportunities to learn from other people that others that are slightly older would have had and how unfair that is. I I do feel for them tremendously, the people that are joining the workplace now. But um it's it's it's very it's very easy to see how the people who have had their jobs part automated or who have been most affected by automation so far could be well very well placed to sort of figure out new ways of of coping and new ways of of maneuvering that show how valuable they can be. Because the motivation is there, right? You you your job is being affected. they might be cutting your job or you know if they do have to make reductions your job might be the one that goes and so you know it wouldn't surprise me if we see new wonderful and interesting things coming from the world of work at the at the entry level position.
>> Axios reported that multiple AI executives that they'd spoken to from from Frontier AI labs were surprised by the fact that there is this growing dislike for for AI. And it kind of seems obvious why why, but I'm just wondering if you might be able to explain for us why they're surprised. I suppose
>> um it's sort of like um I don't know what the analogy would be like, you know, man who smells who sells cigarettes surprised by people who don't like smokers. you know, it's I I don't know like I feel, you know, logically speaking, it's very easy to understand why they believe AI is good. you know, a lot of them are working on, you know, frontier AI models, really interesting innovations, um that they believe will help to change the world. um and they're caught in the crosshairs of you know really big seismic changes that are happening especi frontier AI not not necessarily but certainly in the world of work relating to generative AI models and they're going I just didn't really see that coming that they would everyone would start hating us you know and it's you know you've got a situation where you know the FT was reporting that you know banks are trying to uh safeguard themselves against uh being exposed with investments data centers. you know, we we're seeing people, you know, increasingly being scared about their jobs. layoffs continuously being announced, people talking about, you know, the extremely concerning ways that AI is being used in decision- making within the workplace on a wider scale than we've ever seen before. I think they need to get their heads out of the sand really. like they need to they need to, you know, just read the read read something read something to see why people might not like AI. But again, I I feel that, you know, that they're speaking as as people who are who are more on the um on the cutting edge of AI. um who are not working necessarily on things that we would expect and are more on the I feel quite joyful side of AI where they're doing a lot of kind of experimental things and trying to figure out you know consciousness and you know what does that mean all that sort of stuff and um a lot of them are are academics and that or they have an academic background and they've been subsumed in this topic for a very long time and it's quite heartbreaking really to think that if you spent your whole career kind of looking into this and it's finally reaching the headlines that that you you have so many people hating on it, but I I don't understand why they don't understand. It's it's blatantly obvious, right? I mean, I'm sorry. It's just it's lesson.
>> Bless their cotton socks. Uh if if you were advising an executive, how would you advise them to deal with everything we've been talking about and in particular explain to them why people are turning on AI and what they can do about it.
>> Oh, I would almost like to cite someone in the comments section from a couple weeks ago, um, who said, "I really wish Natasha would stop telling people that executives need to persuade people of why they should use AI and simply say that I should say they should just stop investing in it in the first place." Um, and I think that was a point that it's totally valid. And um I think you know if if you if you don't see return on investment, you don't have a path for return on investment. I think it's it's time certainly for executives to consider whether they're following the right path of investing in AI. Um if they are investing in AI and there's no way back. Um they need to come up with a plan if they don't have one. Um, you know, we we talked last week about how, you know, the the the layoffs aren't exactly justified by RRI and that we we're seeing a lot of businesses who have not made layoffs that are making just the same gains as those who have. So, it makes no sense to to do these layoffs to begin with. I think you've got to think about your your workforce. You've got to think about the um opportunities that you might be missing if you don't make a plan now. Um ultimately though, I mean I feel that a lot of businesses are under such strain and pressure to try to um keep their competitive edge or gain competitive edge if if they don't have it. Um, it's it's very difficult to me to believe that even if you do have a plan, the plan is a good one because there's so many unknowns at the moment. um even if you've invested in AI, let's imagine you got a tool or two and you've adapted it to your business, it's very difficult to kind of see ahead two years or three years and be like, "Oh yeah, now I can retrain these people to do these other things because definitely we won't be automating those." When you don't know what's going to happen in the next 12 months, you don't know what the next model's going to be. You don't know what's what's going to happen. Um, it's it's really really difficult um question to answer for them. But I think they they need that's their job. They need to answer that question. And I think it's I if you're if you're not if you're not investing in your workforce, what are you doing all this for? Because you're not going to how do I put this? You're not going to end up with no employees. Doesn't matter what what kind of work you're in, what kind of industry you're in, you will have employees. And do do you have a plan for them? Do you have a plan for what you want them to do? Um do you have a plan for upskilling them? Uh, do you have a plan that includes everybody in the workforce from entry level to senior management? Um, is there something you could be trained on? Is AI making decisions about your promotions and your your your bonuses? Have you tried out the systems that you're putting your workers through? Like, have you done that? Um, I I genuinely feel, you know, do do yourself a favor and do like an undercover boss and think go amongst your workers and see what's see what's what. uh and figure out what it is that the problems are and and solve them. Um, I don't know. I feel like it's almost utopian for me to be like this is how you do it, but it's just be human, right? Just be be the opposite of what you want to invest in and be a bit human and and start asking questions of your workforce and seeing what works. And I feel like those who have just invested in like bolting on AI tools, there's not even a point to having that conversation because they haven't even thought that far yet. Do you know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> And on that note, Natasha Bernau, thanks for taking the time.
>> Thank you for having me.