From Teen Breeder to Six-Figure Strategy | Sculpted Exotics’ Clayton Kaufman

Here we go. A little technical difficulty to start the show off with, but I promise you we'll make it up in overtime tonight. We might be a day late, but never a buck short. I got Clayton Coffin from Sculpted Sculpted Exotics on the show tonight. He's going to teach this old man a thing or two about capital management, creative g uh genetics, and we're going to talk about the Scottsdale AARP show. We got a little a little something to make up here on the late start. Thanks for your patience. Let's get to it.

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Guys, how you doing tonight? First off, my apologies for the uh slow start. We do a little AV testing in the green room and after testing everything possible on uh Clayton's devices, we discovered it was uh Adam's end was the problem. So, my apologies for keeping you waiting tonight. We will make it up in uh quality content. I promise you. Thanks for being here tonight.

We are coming to you adree from the fine people at Palm Street. You should check out the Palm Street app at palmre.app. Download the app. uh apply to start selling reptiles and start building your business on a live streaming uh interactive platform. Pretty cool.

Um, as I said, Clayton Kaufman is here tonight. Sculpted Exotics. I'll uh introduce him in just a moment. Really not much in the way of announcements right now. This is I uh this Sunday I just concluded I think it was seven shows in eight weeks, but it might have been eight shows in nine weeks. And that goes all the way back to uh midepptember. So anyway, uh I'm pretty gassed is what I'm telling you. But I'm feeling good because I'm through it. It was a fantastic run of shows. Thanks uh wherever I saw you, if I got to see you, if you purchased something from me, thank you all uh very very much. I appreciate it. It's so fun to get out and vend to interact with people. And um I appreciate it. It takes a lot out of me. And now it's time to catch up on all the things that I didn't do while I was out traveling, out vending, and all of that kind of stuff. So, thanks very much. I really, like I say, I don't have much announcements. I won't be anywhere until uh vending in person until December 21st uh at the next Snake Discovery show here in town in uh Minneapolis. And uh so that means I'll be doing a whole lot on uh Instagram, on my website, properroyals.com. Uh if you're interested in first dibs on any uh clutches you see coming up, check out the Proper Royals Patreon. Uh and then of course Palm Street. I've been doing this thing on Palm Street uh every Monday. Today was actually a Tuesday obviously because it is Tuesday. Uh I did it today because I was catching up stuff yesterday, but I've been doing this thing on Palm Street every Monday instead of just running an auction. Uh I really like the idea of building a community. uh build content that people are interested in. And it's really great and and really intriguing that people just like to see what goes on in a reptile facility, a full-time reptile shop. So, every Monday I do three to four hours of while I've got my chores going, showing off snakes, talking about whatever uh content people want to discuss, topics of uh genetics, of breeding, of combos, morphs. Uh today we talked about uh aspen versus cocoa time uh um you know time aotment for different things that I do and my routines and that sort of thing. Uh of course we talked about the snakes. Anyway, what I'm saying is on Mondays come hang out on Palm Street and uh check that out. So um I'll get into it one of these days. Not not here and now. This isn't the time. But um I really like the Palm Street platform and I could tell you about it all later. Check out other videos on YouTube. I talk about it a fair amount. So um check it out. I hope to see you there. Otherwise, like I say, check out properroyals.com or follow on Instagram.

If you're new tonight, you come to check me out cuz Clayton's here. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. If you like what you hear and you enjoy the content, uh maybe consider liking, subscribing, all that good stuff. Uh you can find me on Instagram, Morph Market, Facebook, uh every now and again on Tik Tok, more often on Palm Street. Um and then out in the world in person as well. I kind of like that, too. So, um otherwise, I I got to tell you, like I say, I really don't have any announcements. I'm so excited just to get back to a routine of doing what I do.

So, with that being said, uh Clayton Kaufman is from Sculpted Exotics. Uh he is a member of the uh Proper Worlds Patreon. I'm thankful for that. But to be honest, I don't know him that well. Uh I don't know if you've noticed I'm I'm not quite old man territory, but maybe uncle territory. I'm not sure how that expression works these days. Um, but we, you know, different generations and um different focuses and uh but I've been really impressed with what I've seen. The caliber of animals that he deals in is phenomenal. Um, Clayton worked with us on the EPIC project as well. He was a featured guest on the all-in in 2025 episode of Epic. That's the exotic pet industry conference that we put on. Um, uh, myself, Craig Hansen, and Nikki from Irresistible Balls. That's a project that we have going. Um, and so I got to learn a little bit about Clayton then. And I just see I just see banger after banger that he posts. It's unbelievable. And I said, "Man, I got to figure out what this guy's doing." And um I was talking to Clayton before the show, just to get it out of the way. Clayton is 20. Uh for a frame of reference, I am 45. And I say that because there's a little bit of a patronizing aspect that comes when you're like, "Oh, how old are you? Oh, look at you. You're doing great stuff and you're so young, blah, blah, blah." Um that's not really my angle other than to say you can get started at this stuff anytime. You can make financial decisions at any time and you can learn uh the world of finance and business at any time. And so I mean it in a complimentary way if I ever speak of Clayton's age during this episode.

With all that being said, there's nothing more awkward than talking about the guest who's sitting there listening to you talk about them in the green room. So please welcome for the very first time to the proper royal stage, uh Clayton Coffin from Sculpted Exotics. How you doing, Clayton?

>> Pretty good. How about yourself, man?

>> I am good. I'm good, man. You have the patience of a saint after all that uh AV check that we went through. It was it was something on my end, man. I apologize for that. Thanks for being here, man.

>> It's all good, man. It seems like a ritual almost. Every time I'm on a live, there's always some kind of technical difficulty or some sort. So, I think it's just kind of like my signature a little bit.

>> You know, it's um it's the fun of doing live stuff. I like playing music live. I like vending live. I like interacting with people live. Um, we even had a conversation or started a conversation a few days ago and I was like, "Dh, stop talking. I got to ask you about it on the show live, right? So, um, it comes with the territory, but uh, it's all done and settled, so we're in we're in good shape."

Um, take a moment if, uh, if you would, if people don't know you and they haven't met you, uh, give us a little, uh, kind of the elevator pitch of yourself, your brand, uh, as it relates to ball pythons.

>> Okay. Well, hi everyone. My name is Clayton Coh from Sculpted Exotics. Uh we deal with ball pythons mainly. Um we've been breeding for going on about four years now. Uh about two and a half years ago is when we started seriously looking at investment level animals and uh since then we just really haven't had the ball stop rolling. You know just

>> who is the I hear I hear we who is the Wii.

>> Uh so I just like to refer to it as in general a Wii. Uh I like that term a lot more but um I have an investor as well. she's a little bit more handsoff. Uh, and then she just kind of trusts me to do the day-to-day care and things like that. Um, but that is my grandma actually. So, she's really uh, you know, bless her. I love her so much. She's helped me a ton through all of this. So,

>> very cool. I want to dive into that later. And, uh, as we talked a little bit about in the the green room as well. Uh, I know that could be a touchy subject. On the other hand, um, it grind grinds my gears. I sound like an old man. Uh it it annoys me that we don't we're not taught uh so much um financial and business uh knowledge in school. Um, you know to me I had a I had a conversation with my son tonight. He's 13 over dinner talking about uh credit um investors and debt and and gambling for that matter as well. um and putting all that into a blender together. Like I don't want to shy away from that because I resent that it took me till I was 28 till I understood what an index fund was to invest in and probably close to my 40s before I was like wait a minute I've been looking at business all wrong for 40 years of my life which is um frankly I feel like a crime against me but we'll get to all that later.

Um, you vended this weekend at the uh All-American uh Reptile Plant Expo in Scottsdale. Did I have that right?

>> Yep.

>> Was that your Did you say that was your first time vending?

>> Yeah. So, that was actually our debut here, man.

>> Okay.

>> I know. It was It was crazy. It was definitely a great experience. Um, we had forgotten a couple things. Uh, just like you said, you know, doing things in person, you know, things always go crazy, haywire or whatnot, right? But overall, like I said, it was a great experience.

>> Well, remind me after the show. I'll send you my show checklist that even still I do like 26 to 28 shows a year I still use every time just because like even in business in my career like I open the same restaurant every day for years on end. If I didn't have a checklist of, you know, 60 things that were important to me, uh, sure enough, something would get lost. So anyway, I believe in systems and processes, but um I'll tell you from my experience, Nick and Troy put on a hell of a show. Um, they're the promoters at at AP. And I know a little bit, not much, but I know a little bit about the Scottsdale marketplace because when I work for the PGA Tour, uh TPC Scottsdale is out there in a club that's owned and managed by the PGA Tour. I worked there for a little bit, so I got a good feel for the market. Um, I think you might have experienced like one of the best shows you could possibly experience as the first one uh vending. Tell us about like what was the volume like? What were your impressions like? Just uh I know you said you were tied to the table most of the time. So, just through your eyes, what did you see?

>> Um, well, so uh from the very start of the show, there was um quite a few people just walking in. I mean, it was a little bit slower around that like that VIP section, but once it opened up to the public, a lot of pet people were coming in, especially cuz Clint and uh Brian were there, so that definitely drove in a lot of people. Um, we've done like a little like greet and talk at the start of the show. Um, just to get people a little bit more familiar with just what was going on. Uh, and um, yeah, I mean there was uh, yeah,

>> I had heard uh, through the, you know, the Breeder Grapevine, I heard that Saturday was like smashed attendance. Like I heard it was just a phenomenal attended attended show. Uh, is that what you saw? I mean, did it just feel like it was just just bonkers?

>> Oh, most definitely. I mean, all day it was really packed and people were a lot happier with the show. I heard from a lot of people they did think it was going to be a little bit bigger just because uh, of the venue it was at. the venue was a very large place. Um, so I think there's a lot of room for growth. That's a good thing because a lot of people are like, "Oh, there's next year I'm expecting a little bit more, right? So people can start expanding, bring a little bit more. Um, but yeah, I mean overall in comparison to the other shows we have, people seemed a lot happier and people were buying animals, people, things were moving. Um, yeah.

>> Very good. What did you uh how much experience do you have as far as like going have you been to do you go to other reptile expos? Are you mostly online or what's your what's your uh personal experience with that?

>> So, I started recently going to a little bit more shows about six months ago. Um I went to out to Seir and a couple of the other shows on the West Coast. Um and or I'm sorry, the East Coast and

>> Oh, wow. Okay.

>> Yeah, they were they're really fun in comparison to a lot of the shows here in Arizona. Um, they're a little bit smaller, things like that. The All-American was definitely probably the biggest show we've had here in Arizona. And I think people are really happy that it's here and I think it's something that we really needed. Um,

>> yeah, I'm I gota I I have to be careful what I say sometimes because I'm I've been privy to certain conversations that I know are private and that I don't want to dig in on. I'll just say I'm I'm so happy to hear that because I know Nick and Troy faced some headwinds, let's just say, in Scottsdale and I'm not at liberty to speak about that. You're more than welcome to if you have any idea what I'm talking about. But uh Nick and Troy have done things the right way. Um, and my personal belief is that the best thing about capitalism is competition. Monopolies are not capitalistic. And they I I'll leave it there, but I'm so glad to hear that the outcome was how successful and and your feedback that uh that you're providing right now because those guys do a great job. I have no dog in the fight. I don't advertise for them. I've never vended one of their shows. I've been to several of their shows. Um, and I know them personally, but I've actually never even bought an animal from either one of them. So, this is me speaking as unbiased as I can. I like the way that they are doing things. I like the way that they're going about things, and I do believe competition in the marketplace is a good thing. So, I'm happy to hear that that's uh that's out there for for them that it went so well.

[snorts]

>> Yeah, I totally agree. like you were saying, the monopolization of like uh the the shows here, it just really hurts a lot of people. I mean, not as many animals are getting out there, you know, it's confining more interest. I mean, this whole hobby is based around sharing things along those lines, what you find beautiful, whatever. Uh and so when you start to become exclusive of those things, it it really just

>> uh hurts the flow.

>> And

>> yeah, and I know that there's a thin line. Healthy competition sometimes means that there's winners and losers, which is which is inconvenient. That's not wonderful feeling. But that's different than a monopoly where somebody goes, "Nobody else can come compete. Screw that.

>> Get in the ring. Show me what you got. You knock me on my butt, fine. That's it. That's how it goes. I got to get up and I got to go learn and I got to do it better, faster, cheaper, something." But, uh, to just to just say that nobody's allowed, that's a sign of, uh, that's a terrible sign of weakness in my opinion. So, anyway, I agree.

>> Yeah. So, I'll let that be. Let's go back to your experience. Uh, are you, uh, willing to share how many animals you sold, what types of animals were you selling, what's going on?

>> Yeah. So, um, everything we brought to the table was ball pythons. I only had one table. Uh, I vended with my buddy Matt Yates. He had a display and then I had brought two next level displays. Um so in total it was like probably like 50 tables on the or 50 animals on the table something around that. Um I myself I brought about 32 animals and 13 of those animals had actually sold. So overall I was really happy. That's about half of what I brought. Right. So um yeah the first night I actually had to go back home and restock which I was really not expecting.

>> My man nice nice work man.

>> Um in terms of like what was selling it was definitely a range. We had a couple higherend people come in. uh nothing over a,000, but I had a couple uh 700, $500, $600 sales, but the majority of like the the lower end stuff was all like clown pi pi stuff around like $300, $500 range. Um that stuff was really really moving. So,

>> how much do you So, I've in in my experience, I kind of agree with you that that sweet spot of maybe even 200, but certainly 300 to 500 is I mean that's and actually on a good day that that's if that could be 80% of your sales, you're going to have a little wholesale stuff uh under it and you're going to have a couple, you know, just really great like you say uh other breeders or just perfect animals at the right time. Uh, do you find yourself pricing things into that window? Um, I mean, you talk about clown pides. I mean, both of us can remember this. It wasn't that long ago clown pides were not in that window. I don't know where they were, but they were not in that window. You know what I mean?

>> Uh, so I definitely like so at the shows I I went into it with more conservative mind for the price points. Um, I I figured if I'm going there, I want to make back at least my table fees. And that was something I did notice was when I was walk when I did have the chance to walk around the show. A lot of people like so it was very mixed on how people did in terms of sales and I noticed that people who didn't do as well had their animals relatively high from the very start. Um and it'd be for like simple things like a banana spot clown for like $500 $600. That's a little it's a little much um for that you know especially cuz I mean people talk about you know you don't want to saturate the market things like that. But at the point we are a base clown animal isn't going to be hurting anyone's projects that we're looking at long term because they're still I mean generations away from making a clown head DG hypo whatever whatever. Right.

>> Right.

>> So

>> yeah. Yeah. Right. Actually that's a really good point. Yeah. You're not going to sink the clown projects going on out there with your uh like you say banana spot clown. Um on the other hand that is a beautiful eye-catching animal. I mean, to to the right person who has done research and is wellprepared and goes, I want an eye-catching animal that looks like a cartoon come to life, that's a pretty cool animal.

>> Most definitely. And I think there's a there is a mix. Um, people aren't stupid either. So, like when they walk around and they see like, oh well, I can get this banana clown for, you know, 200 bucks and then this one just has spotnose, right? And so why is it so and so much more? um I don't know with the like a year or two ago a singular gene like that would make a substantial difference um in something value but for me personally with where I'm at if it's a banana spot nose clown it's only going to really change the value 150 bucks right something like that to me I'd rather just take it at the lower price point get it moved so I'm not holding it on not feeding it for the rest of you know five six months while it's on morph market whatever whatever I'll take that like and plus it also makes the customer feel like they they got a good deal out of it too. And that that's like one of the most important parts uh of the purchase itself is making sure they're happy with what they got. So now they're getting a quality animal that looks great. And you can say, "Oh, you can even start your price point at 5600." And then like start the conversation off with everything's negotiable, right? Right. And then I And then you can be like, so what I did was I was like when I was talking to people, I'd be like, "Well, you know, I have this more markets already uh up compared to what I have listed, but to make back some of my table fees, you know, I could do this for you, right?" Yeah. um things like that and uh that really just entices the people to buy whatever kind of pet animal whatever whatever you are doing. So

>> let me back out from this for a second because I'm a big believer in every person has their own perspective, their own resources, their own limitations, uh their own uh context. Do you see would that let's just let's keep the same example even if it's hypothetical. I don't know if we're talking about an actual animal or not. Uh but let's keep the same hypothetical one. Uh banana clown uh spot nose. Is that something you are able to sell at a given asking price on Morph Market or is that something that sits there forever? You have to go to auction. You're going to end up taking the wholesale price at auction anyway. And how many in-person Well, you you said this is your only your first in-person show. How many in-person shows do you think that you'll be doing uh going forward on a regular basis?

>> A lot more. So, I I like I said, I went into the the show mindset being very conservative. That's mainly because of the auctions. I've been using the auctions to move a lot of my like lower-end animals. Um, just cuz like my main like uh clientele is that like, $1,500 kind of range. So, anything above lower than that, I'm like, "All right, it needs to, you know, find a new home, things along those lines." So, when I went into the show, I was already expecting maybe get a quarter to half of what I was listing for, and if I can make back my table fees, then awesome. And it lets go of a couple animals. Um, so that's that's where I I was at with it.

>> Gotcha. So my and again, like I said, I I mean this with all respect because I think that this is a perfect example of different focus, different resources, different uh uh outcomes and it's a different market, too. Like

>> um I don't know, the the Midwest has its own upper Midwest has its own little marketplace. Um, I don't if it were a female banana spot-nose clown, probably 375 to 400 is what I would mark it at on the table. And then, like you say, maybe you do a little show negotiation. Uh, probably wouldn't go under 350 for it. But part of my mindset is I know I can sell I, for example, I know my banana leopard clowns, I'll move them at 375. So, if I know that in my regional market and I know that I have another show on the horizon either next week or the week after, like say I average two a month. So, um, that's a little different outlook than if you're going to do national caliber shows six or eight times a year. It might not make sense to bag that animal up because if if Morph Market or any classified at or any online platform, um, let's be honest, they're all extremely tough when it comes to [laughter] moving that caliber of animal. Maybe you let it go less than that. Like you say, with the focus on covering table fees, building brands, building a relationship with a customer. There's all those values in there, too.

>> For like a for an animal of like a banana spotless clown, I think you'll get a better price at it at a show rather than an auction. Um, just because people will most likely be buying it as a pet rather than a breeder aspect. People who are breeding, they're they're going to be looking more at those like triple double heads for that price range.

>> Um,

>> and that'll have more longevity for them. So to me it's, you know, I could I could auction it and take the really low price or I could just bring it to the show and it sells for, you know, 50 100 bucks under what I would have listed it for and I'm happy.

>> Right. Right. Um I was interested in in how you uh actually let's talk about that. So [snorts] um let's let's talk about Morph Market for a minute. Where do you where do you find what animals are you finding the most success on? And what strategies from a if it's here or or better, I'm loving morph market. If it's not here, I may as well go auction or save it for the live show or what what other variable what other platforms or what other ways are you seeing?

>> So, if the animal like retail like on Mor Park, it would be like around like 300 bucks. I'd usually just hold it until I have a group of them and then I'd wholesale those as like one group on auction. Um and then in terms of like stuff that I like because I use auctions a lot just to keep up with my weekly bills,

>> right?

>> Um

>> uh I put up a lot of like clown head pi stuff uh on there and that stuff does really well. So I've really made a like a priority to make not all of my projects just exactly what I want but also what people want. um cuz I'm not like too crazy about clown pide stuff, but it gets a lot of people into it and uh it pays the bills, things like that. So yeah, I make a couple clutches for that and I designate those for the auctions and then some like lower-end stuff like I might put like a a GHI yellow belly OD headclown something like that on there and something like that is useful to someone, right? um they'll bid on it and um it gets, you know, something like that, but it is a little bit slower. And if you put up like 30 animals, for instance, like you can't if you like if you were to take the amount of animals you take to show to an auction, you'll get like $5 for each one, you know, so you can't overflood it. Uh there's definitely a healthy balance and there's already so many people, especially with Morph Market giving everyone a bunch of free auctions, things like that. Um, it's almost uh more worth to do like some of these bundle sales than to individually sell them out. Um,

>> yeah. Yeah, I I would think so. And I I will be fully transparent. I've never literally never once uh auctioned an animal on Morph Market. I I [laughter] don't I don't like the model. Um I realize it's completely fine. I'm not against the model, but for me, I've always found eventually I'm able to sell an animal somewhere. And if here's my thing, if I'm going to sell an animal at some of the prices like we're hearing or seeing about, I'd rather make the connection in person with a new customer that could because what did you just say? Uh uh orange dream, yellow belly, xyz, hack clown. If somebody's buying that, chances are good that they at least have an idea in their mind that they want to breed and they think that they will breed one day. So, if I can make a good relationship with that person, maybe they'll buy more from me in the future versus a stranger in the ether that I just send a box to and then get annoyed at the dollar per animal price. But that again, that's for me and what what works for me in the world that I've sort of built around myself.

>> So, auctions are I I completely understand where you're coming from like that. And I think with some deals, it's it definitely is like that. But if you maneuver your way uh correctly within the auction, you can make it a very personal thing where they did get a great deal and you are sending it off to someone else. But at the same time, it is starting a relationship off with them on having a great deal in their favor.

>> And a lot of people love that, you know.

>> Fantastic point. You can Yeah. make the most I think. H how do I put it? Um just that mindset and that effort goes a very very long way. uh versus somebody who might not whether whether it happens or not. Of course, it takes two people to tango. Maybe the person doesn't want to know you at all. Maybe they're just going boom, I just got a screaming deal. I'm out of here. Uh but just the mindset that you just expressed is actually um that's my whole point. That is all I'm trying to convey. Actually, that great great job saying that, man. I I agree with you on that.

>> Um uh we talked about earlier you're 20. you um I hope for you you have a long healthy life ahead of you. You have a long you're you're put it this way. I'm much closer to getting out than you are. Uh just from a uh uh actuarial standpoint um numbers wise, what excites you about ball pythons given the conversation that we are having right now? What excites you about Hey, I mean I see the racks behind you like you've either got a long-term plan or you're throwing a lot of money away. So, and I know you're not throwing a lot of money away. So, what excites you about a long-term plan given the conversations we're having right now um at the age of 20.

>> So, um in terms of like a long-term plan, I mean, obviously these animals are very rewarding when you've worked for years and then you finally hit that animal, right? It's super cool. But, um you know, long term, this would be something I do my entire life. Uh that's why I also prioritize like my personal projects and then funding projects, right? And so personal projects for me that are really exciting me would be like Deshost VPI Zebra, something along those I love the black and white stuff. It it just always holds a passion in me. Um and it holds like I remember like the VPI stuff at the table too did really well. I sold a Firefly VPI things like that. So it sparks another interest for people. Um but yeah, that's definitely where it'd be at for me is just seeing the the infinite combos cuz I was telling people too I was at the show. I mean, realistically, we've only discovered like 30 40% of the compos out there. There's so much more.

>> I've I've had this conversation with everybody from uh Chris Eaton in person to just it's if we took uh or even when people say I, you know, I made a world's first, be more excited about reaching your goal project animal than world's first because statistically there are enough combos that we could all have worlds first and there would still be more left over. That's a literal mathematic truth. Now, whether they would exist because you probably don't have we don't have time in our our lives to make a 19 combo uh an you know, a 19 gene combo animal. But, um yeah, I I think we're still just scratching the surface and there's so much that we um passed by along the way because of trends and chasing things. So, I'm not worried about a shortage of cool stuff. I guess I I guess the crux of my question was more I'm worried about um auctions, $5 animals. Uh

>> yeah. Yeah. The the the business model, what do you are you in a mindset of it's stick at it, it's going to get better. Are you in a mindset of this is the standard, I'm going to find a way to live within this and it's going to be a volume game. What are your thoughts on that?

>> So, I think on certain projects, this is definitely going to be the new standard um for things uh just getting in uh there will always be those high-end clientele and whatnot, but with the times moving with uh inflation and things like that, just over production, uh I bananas, you know, 25 years ago were going like 50 grand, whatever, whatever, right? Um but as you produce them more, like I was saying, the the clown, the banana spotless clown, that's not going to hurt anyone's production from now on. So, that shouldn't be that should be a byproduct animal if anything. And so now the the main like interest it's just shifting from like different animals essentially more advanced animals now. So it the market isn't gone. You just have to you have to produce new things that are

>> evolving, right? Uh let's talk about some breakdowns that you've brought up. So, uh, you talked about, uh, your I think you use the word personal, but they are business goals, too, but your personal animals you're excited about, your animals that you breed to pay the bills. Uh, and then, uh, something that you just mentioned, I think, uh, or were alluding to probably requires ongoing investment. So, how much of your breeding stock is kind of like, hey, this is what I'm after, what I want to be known for. or how much is hey these will sell and I'll pay the bills and then of that how much do you reinvest in new animals?

>> Um so it kind of it varies a little bit because I have a couple different deals going on. So it depends what animal sells. Um because I just recently acquired a collection and so anything out of that collection that I do sell until I pay back the collection it goes 100% to him. Um, so I can't buy anything out of that. But anything that I'm making with like, you know, my own personal collection, it usually goes almost directly back into the business besides for like road feed. Uh, and then like I have a a monthly to my um investor as well.

>> Sure.

>> Um,

>> are you are you willing, able, want to what's your uh what are your life respons, you got a car payment, you got student loans, you got uh utility bills. What's that look like for you?

>> So, I have uh in total it's about 9,000 uh a month. So, it's definitely a little up there, but I don't have any mortgage or anything like that. I don't have I'm not a homeowner just yet. Um I have a a car payment. Um I have the investor and then I have the collection um and then feeding uh and general upkeep and uh rent and utilities.

>> Wow. Okay. You know, insurance, things like that. So,

>> yeah. So, your your overhead is nine grand a month. That's you got to do nine grand a month before you make a penny.

>> Yeah. Well, not ne I mean, yeah, to a certain extent, but yeah.

>> Or or before you can reinvest or anything like [clears throat] that. So

>> So once I'm once I'm done paying off the collection and the uh the my investor as well, then technically I would only be needing to make around three 3,500 a month to really be making uh breaking even because I don't plan on expanding in terms of size past this. I'm happy with where I'm at. Um, I actually want to go down if anything. We have a little over 100 breeder females, but not all of those are uh necessary stuff I I want to be breeding.

>> Right. Right.

>> Um,

>> and so it was that

>> Well, I was going to say so uh so nine grand a month. Uh I think that's um $108,000 a year gross revenue just to That's a lot. How do you sleep at night, man? How's it going? I mean, is that Let's going out. Forget the stats. Like you're doing really well. Yeah. No. Uh I mean, so 2024 was a little slow, but that's cuz we didn't have a lot of production. But the start of 2025, I we just kicked it off with a blast. I mean, our first our first clutch out of the year was uh leopard spot, no sunset head clown combos, right? Uh and so those did really well for us. And ever since then, we before I acquired the collection, my overfee was about my overhead was about like 2,600. Um, and then I was making around like seven to eight grand a month on average. After buying the collection, we're averaging around 20,000. Um,

>> last month was actually really really good. We technically we made 69 uh just shy of it, but so that was crazy. I wasn't expecting that. Um, and I'm not expecting that every month, but on average it's around 20,000 a month. And so that does it clears our our um, you know, feeding all that. So we are profiting and it is uh you know that's what I was trying to explain as well too is you know these animals there are they are definitely still moving you just can't be producing the same I mean even clown pides you can't be producing clown pides anymore you have to be producing you know od leopard whatever whatever clown pides you know

>> um

>> when you

>> and that's okay

>> you know

>> well

>> I mean to a certain extent because it's given time it's not like this happened just you know overnight per se I know it's been These animals have been produced for a long time. So, a lot of these people are like, "Oh, well, I bought this animal 15 years ago for this amount." Well, okay, that was 15 years ago, you know, now you can get the same animal in two years for, you know, from two years ago for the same price. That makes sense.

>> No, it does. It does. And it's the truth. Um, uh, thank you for your transparency. I will, uh, reciprocate. I'll tell you uh to echo uh Herbert's [clears throat] point, um 108,000 is almost exactly the most I've ever grossed in a whole year of of of uh in uh 20 that was my number in 2024 and I can tell you it's significantly down this year. Um, however, my profitability percentage-wise and dollar-wise is actually up this year, which I think is a function of me uh capping out um some of my investments and and uh equipment investments, capital investments, not the animal investments. So, um uh and you said, and I'm at about uh 60 breeder females, and I've never really gotten past the about 50% of them going because so many of them are firstear breeders. I'm still early in that phase in that sort of uh time frame as well. So actually I'm excited that um somebody is doing you I mean you said you're averaging almost double that. U who are the how many of these buyers are out there like not everybody I guess would I mean everything would be relative but I don't think there's space for a whole lot of people to be doing 20 grand a month. Uh I could be wrong, maybe there is. And I know I know there's people that do way more as well, but that's a pretty big uh uh uh achievement. And by the way, congratulations, man.

>> I appreciate that.

>> Yeah, man.

>> Um yeah, no, it definitely is a very high number. And it has to do especially with like the caliber of animals that we are producing. Um we are very fortunate to, you know, get really crazy odds on a lot a lot of that and that really killed this season as well. I mean, last season we produced two triple visual males and so that really helped our projects uh go forward.

>> Um yeah, but I'm sorry I'm blanking. What was the question again?

>> Uh just um um mostly mostly just talking about oh how much who are the buyers? How much space in the market for for this uh volume of of sales? Um and not even volume, amount of sales because you're doing it on a relatively low amount of volume. If I'm I'll tell you the 108,000 I did, I think I averaged right around 350 per animal um across the whole year. So you're probably going, "Yeah, you did that the hard way, Adam," is probably what you're saying to yourself.

>> Um so, uh I'm sorry. Um do you think that there's a lot of those buyers out there? You see

>> Sorry. That's what I was That's okay. Are you seeing repeat buyers? What are you seeing there?

>> Yeah. So that's what I was trying to think of. Um I so in terms of like my customers, I do have a couple repeat customers here and there. Um and the repeat customers tend to be a little bit more on the the higher end side. Um but the I get a lot like the main thing that sells for me is around the,000 to $1,500 sales and I get, you know, like three or four of those um throughout like the the week lease inquiries and I'd say at least like two of them go.

>> Um and so then that that helps out a lot. So, I think there is a lot of space and I mean I've been looking on Instagram the people who do have like and they aren't like massive names or anything but the people who do have like some vision and whatnot their animals are selling. They are moving. Um

>> and so you don't have to be doing this on a large scale to be making a lot of money. You just have to have the the vision almost. Um

>> and on on that topic, what uh are there any cornerstones to your vision? Like to your vision? We hear that word thrown around a lot and everybody's got their own philosophy. you have the numbers to back it up. What is the uh blueprint of your vision?

>> Um so most of it was based out around the clown project. Uh when I was first investing in I was like all right if I'm going to get into a project it has to at least revolve around clown at some point point so I could you know incorporate them all into each other. As we've expanded though it's kind of uh maneuvered into VPI exanthic. um almost all of our projects have some kind of tyings into that and so I think that's really important when you are like investing in large is to make sure that your projects work together but they're also separate too so you can have those more niche customers but then also cover the more widescale thing

>> what would you say to somebody who says um you know what if people don't like VPI and that's what I do what if I work at that for five years what do you what do you say to that I'm not saying I agree with that but what do you say to that

>> Well, I mean, uh, you know, not everyone likes every project, and that's perfectly a-ok. Okay. Um, you know, in my personal opinion, it's going to be a lot harder for anyone to push any other line of Exanthic, no matter the quality, just because of how widespread VPI is.

>> Excellent point. Agree completely with you.

>> And so, that's why I mainly chose to invest into VPI. Like, I was looking at blackanthic for a while. It just seems like it's going to if you want to work the project, it's going to be great. It's going to look beautiful. It's just going to be a lot more effort to try to push those kind of animals. Um, and that's also like another thing when I was looking into investing as well is like I wanted to get into some of these more like niche projects, but I also didn't want to go too crazy out there. Um, because there are like some really cool projects, but they don't have any like backing or foundation, right? But then you look at like something like Sunset a couple years ago, that was really niche, but it had a lot of potential, things like

That. So, I invested into that and Zebra, things like that. Um, where do you find the sweet spot of, excuse me, cuz you're exactly right. You can have a really cool-looking animal, and sometimes that trumps everything. But, uh, a lot of, uh, just about every gene that we work with, maybe with the exception of banana, but banana is its own, its own, that's its own market study for many, many reasons.

Most genes that we work with, they're intriguing by themselves, but the real magic happens when you find them in the right combos and then you start pushing them in the right direction and you use that as a foundation. And, um, so to that point, uh, let's take Zebra for example. Where was the sweet spot of Zebra where it was unique enough to still be high value, and, uh, there would be enough people that would buy it based on its merits visually of where it's at. I guess what I'm saying is you can work the daylights out of a new project that there's nobody there to buy it, nobody else working it. It becomes pet grade really, really, really, really fast, which isn't really necessarily fair to all the projects, but it is what happens.

Um, so when I was first investing into Zebra, I was a little, uh, like, like, not necessarily skeptical. I just wanted to make sure that it actually had like, you know, some kind of, um, backing like we were talking about. So I hit around a couple different breeders and I saw that it actually had like some history. I mean, like Steve Rousus was has been working in forever. Um, and there's just a lot of really cool, uh, essentially breeders who have already backed it, like Nova, Bob Vu, things like that. Um,

And so when you're looking at investing into like a new gene like Bambino or something like that, it, it has to prove itself first within the community. And so this had the, the, the point where it hasn't necessarily been proven yet, but it's been already diverse throughout the community. So it had like the opportunity where you could be the person to almost prove it and make something new out of it while having a little bit of backing. So you know that you had a little bit of support and those animals would move.

What do you, are there any genes whether you own them or not, or whether you're excited about them or not? Are there any genes that you see like that at this moment right now?

Um, I mean, on like a really, on like, I'm really excited about the, the Shredder stuff. Uh, I, I like Shredder a lot. Um,

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, I only have one female. She's a black pastel spot no Shredder het clown female. So that's like in terms of like the only like kind of newish, like unique gene to our collection. We also have a lot of Scrambler. I want to really prove out Scrambler, um, before I push it too crazy hard. Um, just because there's been so much debate about it, but in my eyes, no matter what, the animals that have been produced from the project are just so unique and colorful and vibrant that even if it is Orange Dream, all right, well, my Orange Dream is literally like 10 times better than your Orange Dream. So there's something going on. Whether it's lime bred or whatever, you know, I think that there will be a definite difference in value, but it needs to be more concreted and proven first.

I, um, I, God's honest truth, that was the gene that, oh, there you're back. Okay.

You there?

Oh, no.

You're okay. Can you hear?

Hello.

Yep. Can you hear?

Awesome. Yep. Sorry. My bad. My grandma had called for a second.

Oh, nice. No, no, you're good. You're good. Yeah. No, we, we, we had you the whole way through there. You didn't realize it, but we were watching you the whole time there. Uh, it was good.

Okay.

So, my nose or anything.

Exactly. God's honest truth. Uh, Scrambler was a gene that I had in mind when you brought that up and I had this conversation today.

Yep.

All right. You okay?

Yeah, I'm good. My girlfriend's texting me right now.

So, God's honest truth. I had that conversation today in the, uh, I mentioned earlier, I did a Palm Street session earlier. Um, and that topic came up and you're right, there is, and rightly so, there's a ton of questions about what is it? Is it its own gene? Is it lime bred? And the thing I love about Scrambler, and this will probably make some breeders, and especially going back to the, uh, uh, competition capitalism commentary I had earlier, cringe, but those animals speak for themselves. I don't care. I mean, I, I care like 2% what the genetic information is. If that is Kodom or, uh, non-recessive for whatever we want to call that these days, uh, and those could be produced and reach the masses. I think, I think Scrambler can have an effect on the hobby industry almost to the extent that banana did. And because there's going to be a lot of them produced, we might like that or we might not, but that's going to happen. It's a, it's a non-recessive, so there's going to be a lot produced whether we like it or not. They are amazing looking. They stop people in their tracks. That's why I bought one. I, it passed my, I don't care what that is. If that's at the right price and I can afford it, I'm buying it. And I did that and I did it three times over. Um, and I imported them from Canada. So, um, it passes those tests. And then to your point on crossing over in some of the higher-end stuff, if people want to build that into triple recessives, be my guest. I would want to as well. The future's wide open on it. And there can be some high-end stuff, but those are, uh, just some of the most breathtaking animals that I've seen. And all the debates over what it is and whatnot, that is wasted energy in my opinion. Put those out there and get those in the marketplace and change people's perceptions of what beautiful animals are is my opinion, man. Incredible, you know.

So, when I was vending, um, I think what really helped me is because I brought two, uh, like a couple of our really highlight Scrambler animals and I had numerous, like people stop at my table. Like I said, I only had two, two displays. They, I had numerous people tell me I had the most beautiful animals at the entire show. Um, and it was all the Scrambler stuff. The Scrambler stuff, pet buyers, breeders. I had people who said that they hate ball pythons, but the Scrambler stuff stopped them dead in their tracks. Yeah.

You know, just invest in what you love. It, you know, there is a certain extent to like you need to know what you're breeding. Uh, of course, you need, you know, of course, but at the same time, you know, a lot of these genes are new and we're still figuring them out. And so this is a great time to get into something that is clearly different, as long as you get it from a good quality lineage because there are some people who, you know, are just putting things up there and that is what's hurting the project. Um, but if you can get some good quality lineage for a decent price, it could be massive for you.

I, I think so. And I think, um, I think this is going to be a really good, this, I make a prediction. It's not that bold because we've seen this happen. Just, we're just coming off of this happening with Lace, right? It was beautiful. It is incredible. I don't know anything about it because I don't own it. Uh, a lot of stuff was being sold as Lace. Then we had the genetic test. Oh, turns out, nah, that wasn't Lace. So, like, if it doesn't pass the eye test, I don't care what somebody labels it as. I'm not buying it. It's got to pass. It's got to pass the wow test, you know?

100%. There. I spent about, it hurts to say, but about nine grand on Lace stuff and it all proved negative.

Oh, it hurts. But I, I've gotten some animals. I've gotten the hookup from a homie. Um, so I have some actual, like shed tested stuff now. But yeah, I mean, shed testing has been a blessing. And when, uh, we can finally figure out, especially like this, all, all this Orange Dream debate too, it makes it so much harder cuz I mean, you know, you can send in a hyote and Orange Dream, whatever, whatever, and they all test the same or they come back negative. Um, because a lot of our Scrambler stuff, it, it's negative for Orange Dream altogether. Um, and but at the same time, that test isn't 100% completely valid. So it's like, okay, well, maybe we missed the allele or something like that.

That's the problem. And I, I don't, I don't want to speak, how do I put this? There's a banner under my name that says shedtesting.com. There is a reason Charlie doesn't offer an Orange Dream test.

The Orange Dream tests don't meet a certain level of scientific veracity.

They meet a pretty good level of it. They don't meet the level that he wants to get to. That causes pause for me. The flip side of that that I love is, okay, what do we care what it's called? What do we care about this word salad other than our egos and trying to sell it to somebody else versus going, here's what I believe the parents had. Here is the result that I got, and this thing will blow your mind. Would you like a piece of this or not? How about that? Because if you would, now's your chance. And what's it worth to you? And that to me is the beauty of what we do. That's back to the artistic part of it. That's back to the, um,

I, I don't know what Gina was for you, but for me it was Pides. I just, I, and I have a different, I have a different perspective of Pides right now from a breeder standpoint, but from a consumer looking at something with my two eyeballs,

I, it was like incomprehensible to me. And that's what I'm looking for in ball pythons. I'll figure out the genetics, the finances of it all later. If it's mind-blowing, I'm cool with it, you know? And I, I think that's where I think Scrambler's done that the best that I can recall, really, in in recent time, to be honest with you.

Yeah, most definitely. I would say the most eye-catching animals I've seen for the most part have been Scrambler, um, if not various combos.

Yeah, and I should hang on. I should clarify that the highest result of sort of mind-blowing and the most attainable. When I say we don't need, there are, you, you mentioned earlier, like a an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an 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