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Today, we will be discussing the unity and diversity that exists between brothers and sisters in Christ. How can we better understand one another? How can we better serve one another? That certainly is a dialogue that is front and center in our culture, and it's not just in our culture; it is an issue around the world. And so, we want to talk about that regularly.
I have three dear friends with me today. Uh, it's hard to call them guests at Dallas Seminary, but we'll treat you like guests. But all the way from Switzerland, on the big screen, Dr. Darrell Bock. Now, this is kind of funny because he's usually in this role, but he's in Switzerland today, and so we're beaming him in. And I want to give introductions to our three individuals that will be participating today.
Our digital brother, Dr. Darrell Bock, Senior Research Professor of New Testament Studies and Executive Director of Cultural Engagement for the Hendrix Center at Dallas Seminary. And through this work here at DTS, uh, in his prolific publishing career, Darrell has become a sought-after voice and leader in the areas, as you know, of New Testament scholarship, the historical Jesus, and the intersection between theology and the public square.
We are also joined by Dr. Tony Evans. Dr. Evans has served as the Senior Pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship for over 40 years. As I have [Applause] as I've read your bio over the years and watched that number grow, I realized that you were three when you started preaching. Uh, they've witnessed incredible growth from 10 people in 1976 to now over 10,000 congregants. Listen to this, plus over 100 different ministries. If you have not been there to see the outreach, uh, of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, you need to go. Dr. Evans has authored over 100 books, booklets, and Bible studies. He serves as chaplain for the NBA's Dallas Mavericks, a ministry he's done for over 30 years, and he's also the former chaplain of the Dallas Cowboys.
We are also joined by Dr. Ramesh Richard, Professor of Global Theological Engagement and Pastoral Ministries here at DTS. In addition to more than 30 years of faculty service, Dr. Richard is founder and president of Ramesh Richard Evangelism and Church Health, also known as REACH. It's a global proclamation ministry that seeks to evangelize leaders and strengthen pastors primarily from Asia, Africa, and Latin America.
Before we get started, would you just join me in thanking these three individuals today? What a topic we have, guys. Thank you for your incredible, faithful ministries, and I'm serious when I say this, the personal, uh, deep impact that each one of you have had in my life and here at Dallas Seminary.
So, Tony, let me start with you. A question to kind of get us going here. Why, in your judgment, is discussing unity and diversity, this big, massive topic that we have in front of us, why is this, why is the discussion of race such a challenge for everyone? And as a follow-up to that, why can this topic, of all topics, make people angry, frustrated, disenchanted? Any other words that you want to put with that?
So, that's a good one to get us started. Well, thank you. It's, uh, always a privilege to come back to DTS, where a lot of my formation theologically and biblically was developed, and I will always be grateful for the many years I spent here. We approach the issue of race from different experiences, different realities, and those realities inform our frame of reference, our thinking, our celebrations, and our frustrations.
If I would have applied to Dallas Seminary a few years earlier, before I applied, I would not have been allowed to be a student here because it accepted the cultural realities of segregation. Having been the first African-American doctorate, that's a compliment, but it's also a criticism because of the inability to be a full participant at the school during those early years. So those experiences color how we frame our reality. When people's experiences are different than that, because their background, their history, their racial context is, uh, is different, and the two meet without an understanding, without a unified place to start, without appropriate forgiveness and reconciliation, frustration enters into the mix. And when frustration enters into the mix, division is the natural result of that. So our starting point is different, our point of reference is different, our experiences are different, therefore our frustration increases. And until we decide that there is a center point and centerpiece for addressing this issue, then we become parrots of the culture, and the same division that is in the marketplace finds itself in the kingdom.
Yeah, we're going to talk about that center place, that centerpiece. Ramesh, let me come to you. Um, you travel extensively, and you have had the rare privilege of engaging with so many different people, ethnicities, countries, political leaders. The Lord has placed you in a very strategic role. When you listen to what Tony just said, and globally, what comments would you make in addition to this, or to supplement what he's been talking about as you engage, again, people all over the world?
Thanks, Mark. Um, preliminary comments, Dr. [unintelligible] and I, we were at Mosher Library before Turpin Library was there and established a relationship which was deep. The issues never go away. And then, of course, Dr. Bock, Darrell, he was one year ahead of me. I found out that all the really smart people were graduating one year early, so I caught up to him and Dan Wallace and others. So, we, with these relationships, the matters are deep, the matters are long, but the matters are also global. It's global because it's racial identity markers that everybody has.
I've been in the book of Genesis for the last part of the week for my devotional feeding. I've signed up for the, uh, project that the faculty is doing. And if you go pre-Mosaic, this is the template for the world. Book of Genesis, and just like we have other creation mythologies, I have one that when God created human beings, he started out with making them in the shape of cookies. The recipe called for one hour inside the oven, and he wanted to be extra careful. Took them out five minutes too early. From there came all the white people of the world. Uh, the next time, you said, uh, I need to be able to address this, and left them in too long for five minutes longer, and it came all the black people of the world. And the, uh, final time, said, we're gonna make it just right, and, uh, came all the, okay, the red car people of the world. It's personal. It is global. Our identity markers often go with color, unfortunately. This is the reality in the country that I come from, where I was raised. We have probably about 2,000 stratifications.
And we all want to find our identity in external markers or internal references or accomplishments and so on. The problem is the problem of human sin. Whether you're in India, I, or you're in Burma, where the Muslims are hit, being raped and harassed, or in Buddhist Sri Lanka, or a couple of weeks ago, prior to Darrell getting there, I was in Germany where I saw double refugees, people who moved from Afghanistan to Ukraine and then from Ukraine to Germany. So the matter is persistent. It's because it's personal. It's all attributable to the Genesis template. Amen.
Part of the reason we want to talk about this, uh, Dr. Bock, I'm coming to you in just a minute, um, is because as future leaders, right here, I mean, our student body, I mean, this is an issue that we have to talk about. They're going to be asked questions, which is why we're needing to do this on a regular basis in various formats. So, Darrell, you have, over the last several years of your life, um, been involved in the public square discussions, and obviously, because of where U.S. culture is, and even with this global frame that we have just said, uh, you have found yourself front and center talking with an awful lot of groups on this discussion about unity and diversity. And so the question that I frame for you is, what advice would you give as leaders think about how to lead a church, an organization, in this particular area?
Well, I'm here in Switzerland, as you know. And last week, I was in Germany teaching at Bonn-Bieber Seminar to expatriated Ukrainians and Russians who have repatriated in Germany and have been here for probably a generation. And in the chapel message, I was asked to speak to the war in which the marriages involve Ukrainians and Russians as spousal connections. It goes that deep. This is not a problem unique to the United States; it is global. And more than that, without a center in Christ, everyone rests in their identity, if they're not careful, and they make little or no effort to understand someone different from them. If they're not careful, and if they're not careful, you end up with the frustration that we talked about earlier.
I think the most important piece of advice I could give to leaders about how to lead a church or an organization in this area is to help people understand the difference between personal guilt and corporate guilt. Personal guilt is that which I'm directly responsible for. But corporate guilt is the environment that we live in. We live in a corporate environment, and the things that surround us impact us and shape us. And if we don't understand corporate guilt and the corporate nature of our existence, but focus just on the individual aspects, which is what we tend to do in our culture because we're so individualistic, we're going to miss some of the influences and issues that are a part of being a good neighbor and engaging with people.
Well, very helpful. Tony, let me come back to you, and then jump in, uh, Ramesh, Darrell, jump in on this one, please. Tony, you said a minute ago, there's got to be a center, a solution here. Um, let me just get it out there. How is Christ and the Gospel central to this conversation for us as believers?
Well, Ephesians 2 makes it clear. Like, you know, CRT is the big thing today. I coined a concept, I call KRT, Kingdom Race Theology. Right? And the idea is, Ephesians 2, that the work of Christ was designed to create one new man. One new man did not negate human distinctions, because in eternity, Revelation 5:9, every nation, every tribe, every kindred, every tongue. So God is not colorblind; He's just not blinded by color. And those distinctions are intentional, but those distinctions are to be rooted in, framed by, and blossom from our central relationship to Jesus Christ and His revelation. The Imago Dei, which should be the starting point of human dignity, not only in the womb but to the tomb. The Imago Dei is used to not only refer to the value of life in its origin, but James 3:9, the dignity in which you hold people, to not curse them because they created an image of God. Once you come to Christ, we are being framed in His image.
What has happened is that we have argued for the *hēugallion*, the content of the gospel, while negating the scope of the gospel. The *hēugallion* is not only the narrow content that gives men eternal life to come, but the word is also used when Paul condemns Peter for his racism in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 11 and following. He says, "because you have not obeyed the truth of the gospel." Now, Peter's already said he's already on his way to heaven, but Paul refers to the gospel in terms of our relationship to one another as believers, and he still calls it the gospel. My favorite Bible passage is Ephesians 2:20: "crucified of Christ, nevertheless I live." Most people quote that verse and extract it from the story Paul is telling Peter. Galatians 2:20, that you have confused your identity, Peter. Your identity now, why you don't lose your Jewishness, is to start from and be rooted in your relationship to Christ. And when the narrow content of the gospel is properly connected to the broad applicational scope of the gospel, then we can see what is to be anticipated in heaven being worked out in history, because we become gospelers in all of life.
Daryl, Ramesh, go ahead. Ramesh, go ahead. Daryl.
Um, I, I often hear that this kind of a conversation is peripheral to the gospel, and it isn't. It actually is the central opportunity the church has to give its testimony about the power of the gospel in the world. And the reason I say that is the second half of Ephesians 2:11-22. Because the first good work, you know, 2:10 says, "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." The first good work that's mentioned in Ephesians after that is the work of the new man, the bringing of Jew and Gentile together into the new man, formerly, uh, terribly estranged people who fought with one another, now united in Christ and brought together. So if we want to give a testimony for what the gospel is about, so that people can see it, the place where we're supposed to show it is in the church.
He himself is our peace. And we've got to constantly understand what our ultimate absolutes and what our relative absolutes. What our ultimate, what are penultimate, our ultimate commitment is to the Lord Jesus. Everything else is penultimate. Our color, our language, our history, accomplishments, our economics, you know, what we're talking about has a peculiar American tone because the American church has been in a position of control and wealth. This is not so in other parts of the world. And because we have been in a position of control and wealth, the whole thing has blown up. If you are marginalized, if you're poor, if you didn't have influence on the political system, it would be less of an issue. It seems like we are returning to the early church when the majority culture would oppress the minority culture, and they had to find, they had no option than to find their key ultimate commitment, the absolute identity of the Lord Jesus. And yet it flowed down into preferences and accents and, and so on.
Unity itself is, is needed to be defined. You know, what, what is unity? Unity is not union. It's not like Siamese twins; that's that's a birth defect. Unity is not unanimity. If everybody who is saying the same thing the same way, it'll be boring. It's not unison. Just imagine our worship team always in unison. It's not, uh, uniformity. We're all different. That's part of the genius of God and how He made us to be fruitful and multiply. What unity is, I see both Ephesians and Philippians and go back to Genesis 11 and so on, is, is harmony. And can we grow up to harmony? Only in the Christian faith do we actually have resources for harmony. In the other faiths, you don't. We don't live up to our theology, but we have inherent in our theology the possibility of unity and harmony and impact as a result in the church. But only in the church is the best, biggest resource that we have for unity.
That's great. Let me switch topics just a little bit here, but obviously, it all relates. When I'm watching a variety of discussions and participating myself in this particular dialogue, [Music] it's exposing some things. We're not good listeners. And so, let me ask the question here: How important is listening when it comes to this topic? And why are these real difficult conversations necessary? Tony, want to lead out on that?
I had an experience where a guy was doing some work at my house, and while he was Christian, and, uh, in talking to me, he used the word "boy." He called me "boy." All kind of history rose up in my mind, heart, soul, and body, because that was a derogatory term that even children would call older men "boy" in our history. And so my human reaction, given that historical reality, just kind of began to boil. Another gentleman came in who was like me, older than the gentleman who was doing the work, and he called him "boy." Now, that changed the atmosphere immediately, because I made a judgment based on my history. But when I heard him do that to someone within his own race, then I understood, well, that was his communication. Unless we are willing to talk to one another and get to understand why there are sensitivities on my side that you may not understand, or that you may need to become more familiar with, then we will go into our own corners with our own judgment, and perhaps many of those judgments will be errant, either because we didn't talk about it or we don't care to discuss it and understand one another. That becomes a relational issue. And of course, the church is supposed to be a relational environment, right? Right. So, just coming for preaching and teaching and singing, as important and foundational as those things are, is not sufficient ecclesiology. Ecclesiology must be relational. And without that relational component, which includes the communicative parts of it, uh, there are brought up a moment ago about personal guilt and corporate guilt. If I can tell a quick story, located adjacent to our church is a golf course, of a golf club of Dallas. The Golf Club of Dallas would not allow blacks to play on it until 1994. We tried to, the way they had it structured was, if a person brought a black person to the golf course, you had to get two-thirds votes in order to be admitted at the golf course. So no black person could ever get two-thirds votes. So that's where they could have a systemic system of exclusion. Whether or not the person invited me was personally guilty, so he could have been my friend and not a racist, but he was bringing me into a system that was racist. So there was a systemic system that didn't include his personal guilt. Unless we sit down and talk so that you understand what people have to go through that may not be true of you, but true of the environment in which they live, then you don't understand the sensitivities that occur in their mind, heart, and soul. So that's why those relational components must be essential to healing wounds and living out this one new man. And that's fascinating to think about in terms of the local church and how to facilitate environments where we can have that discussion and to teach that. That's a, that's a discussion for another day for us. But Ramesh?
Yeah, so my wife is here, and she often asks, "Are you listening, or are you, are you hearing me?" There's a few different, uh, words, you know. I, I can't, Darrell, be hearing but but not listening. Two stories here. Bonnie's parents were in Georgia when Tony and Lois were going to be applying for membership in this white church, and people did not want Tony and Lois to be part of this white church, and she and her family walked out as a result. This is deep and inherent. You need to hear the rest of the golf club story because he's been hesitant to say this, but now God has given the golf club to Tony Evans and Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship for community ministry. Are you aware of the reversal of history in God's wonderful, marvelous providence? But in Delhi Bible Fellowship, where I was serving, we could not make discriminatory situations exacerbate them in any way. And the only point where we could publicly demonstrate that regardless of color, social stratification, of caste, of vocation, of economics, was at the communion table. So they would come to the front to have the ambassador of Canada to India take communion with the Christian brother rickshaw puller at the same table. It was a powerful example that that's the only possibility of brotherhood toward a purpose in internal belonging and external impact came of the Lord Jesus Christ. Outside, human beings don't treat human beings like human beings. Only in the church can we live up to what our inherent theology is, that human beings can teach human, treat human beings like human beings. So actively listening is more than just being exposed to noise and sound. It's hearing and acting upon it.
Daryl, I know this is a topic that, uh, you and I have had discussion on a lot. The importance of difficult conversations. I know you're just chomping at the bit to probably say something about that particular. He's always jumping at the bit topic. What are your thoughts? The importance of difficult conversations.
You know, when you, when you hit a difficult space, you really have three options: you can push back, you can withdraw, or you can work through it. And working through it is really the best way to proceed. Because what engaging in a difficult conversation with someone whose experience is different than yours gives you the opportunity to do is to discover blind spots that you may have. And it's the blind spots that we have that we're not even aware of that oftentimes get us into trouble in our relationships. So you have an opportunity to build a relationship. I'll just say as strongly as I can, one of the beauties of being at the seminary is you have the opportunity to build relationships with people who have completely different backgrounds than you've come out of. And you have an opportunity to see a little microcosm of the world on this campus that you should take advantage of. And in the midst of those conversations about what makes your culture different, why do you think this way versus that, why do you react this way instead of that, with an intent to listen to actually understand where the person is coming from first, and do your assessments later, you actually have a chance to spot your own blind spots and grow and learn. That's how God teaches us, is, is through those kinds of difficult conversations. So don't just push back, and don't withdraw. Work through it, because if you work through it, you'll be a better person on the other end. Amen, brother. Amen.
Hey, we've had some questions that are coming in. Hundreds. They made comment, uh, to Dr. Richard on this one. You mentioned identity in external markers, internal reference, and accomplishments. How do these hinder communication? And how does identity in Christ help?
So, I was in Western Africa with one of our graduates, Dr. Scott Cunningham. You might know Scott. Scott and I were walking across a football field, soccer field, and we had little kids who were yelling to me and said, "Oyembo, oyembo." And I said, "Scott, what does that mean?" He said, "It means white." I looked at myself, I said, "I don't probably qualify for the epithet." And then he went on to say, "It really means non-black." So anybody who's non-black is white. I said, "It's really hilarious because when I go back to the States, they call me non-white." So in Africa, I'm known black, and in America, I'm non-white. Maybe in the right color after all.
So here we are with identity markers. It's a, the number one question, in my opinion, of the, of the human condition: where do you source your identity? And if it is in any of these markers, like language, apartheid for South Africa, when I got to be there, I mean, they had these wonderful streets which stopped at the white neighborhoods and immediately the black neighborhoods were in massive decay, all in the same, same road. But they kept the Afrikaans language alive because they knew that if the country's poor spoke Afrikaans, their identity will still be preserved, even though they were in the minority. So identity markers are extremely critical. The question is, how much weight do we want to give to the secondary, relative identity markers, or do we really subsume our identity under the ultimate, the absolute ultimate, who is the Lord Jesus?
So internal reference, we are people of minds and hearts. We have been built with experiences and history. There's been pain, but there's also been great joy and relief. I usually use the metaphor of the glasses. We wear particular kinds of glasses. All reality, we interpret through the color of the glasses that we have. And unless these glasses can be gently broken and replaced with our identity in Christ, it's going to be very, very difficult, except to interpret everybody else with the glasses that we have. The good thing is, in Christ, we are a new creation. All things have passed away, and He's given us new, uh, paraglasses, primarily on us, but influenced by who we are on the inside, to read what is on the outside. So salvation is a deep experience. Think of the content and the scope of the gospel that has just been mentioned. It's applicable at every point of life, history, geography, and demographics.
That's great. Tony, a question came in for you, Dr. Evans. What is the balance between letting love cover a multitude of sins and being diligent to preserve the unity of the body in the bond of peace?
Well, love is never to be divorced from truth. So you don't excuse truth in order to maintain love. You speak truth in a way that demonstrates love. And the way you speak truth in a way that demonstrates love is that your goal is to build up and not to tear down. So when I am, or someone is correcting some errant thought or behavior, it should be clear to the listener that the goal is to fix a problem, not to keep it broken. We have, um, people in our culture who it is in their vested interest to keep things broken for notoriety purposes, for economic purposes, for destabilization purposes. Whereas we, this, this bond of peace, this belt of peace, harmony, as Ramesh said, it's very critical because God will only reveal His presence to the level of our unity. So when Jesus, who uses the word "one" about 10 times in John 17, and He comes to verses 23 to 25, and He says, "preserve the unity." Uh oh, no. He tells them to, to keep the unity, to perfect them in unity, and then He says, "so that they may see my glory." One God, composed of three cultural persons, one in essence, distinctive personality. So God can't be Himself in a disunified environment. So we actually uninvite God when there is illegitimate disunity, segregation. So God has been uninvited in America while we pray and while we preach.
Segway, Dr. Bock, question for you. Um, I know, again, in terms of the U.S., you have been involved again in this dialogue with many churches. What are the biggest strengths and weaknesses in the American church and the global church in terms of the current approach to race discussions?
I don't think we appreciate how important this theme is to God. There are numerous passages in the Old Testament that say, "If you do not care about justice, I do not care about your worship." Amos 5, Micah 6, Isaiah 58, numerous texts. And actually, all that is a reflection of the great commandment. We're called as the people of God to love our neighbors as ourselves. And our neighbor is everybody. And so that Jesus was very clear in the parable of the Good Samaritan, our neighbor is everybody.
I think the weakness in the church right now is the inability to think about and appreciate people who are different than us, to understand our commission, that our call is to call people outside the church into an invitation to come into the church, and to do so in such a way that we show and reflect the love of God, which was, He went to the cross and died for us when our backs were turned to God. And if we do not understand that core message, if we don't remember where we came from by the grace of God, we cannot be a healthy church. And we need to rediscover that. We need to discover the humility that comes with that. We need to exalt the grace that comes with that. And we need to work to care about people enough who are different from us enough to think about how we were once in the same situation that they are in. If we do all of that with some level of empathy and conviction about what it is that God offers through His Spirit to change us, that we're learners. You know, we often joke that the Reformation was an important part of the history of the church, but the Reformation began with God when He entered into our lives of the Holy Spirit. And that change means there are things we all need to learn as we walk with God.
Okay, as we wrap this up, one-minute closing statements from each one of you. Dr. Bock, we're going to start with you. Ramesh will come to you. Tony will end with you, and then I'll wrap us up with prayer. So, Dr. Bock, closing statements, one minute.
I'll take less than one minute. Get to know people different than you. Listen, listen, listen, and apply James 1:19 and 20. Be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger, because the world does the exact opposite. And I like to emphasize Psalm 133. "Behold," it's not just "see," but "take action." "How good and how pleasant it's, uh, it's two synonymous words, but big difference there. Because not everything good is pleasant, not everything pleasant is good. How good and how pleasant it is for brothers." We are brothers and sisters with the same family. The biggest metaphor in the New Testament for the Christian family, most used, not uterine brothers. We're talking about brothers by blood, Christ's blood, brothers by heritage and human family, and especially the Christian family, to dwell together. The dwelling together is not just coming together in chapel or being together. It's not even thinking together. It's actually belonging together, in deferring to one another, in exchanging care and love, and saying that our identity is going to be secondary to what we are in Christ. And together, it's both fragrant as a result to the world and is very, very fruitful for the sake of the cause of Christ. The last part of that psalm says, "there is life forever." Where? In the place of brothers and sisters dwelling together. You guys are the future of the church, both in the United States and beyond. And if we, as a laboratory here, are able to practice it, enjoy it, grow in it, we're going to potentially make a dent in the course of U.S. history and world history. For there is beauty, there's pleasantry, there's fragrance, there's productivity in us being together.
We must let being biblical Christians trump being cultural Christians. If I say I'm a black Christian, somebody else says a white Christian, you make black and white an adjective, you make Christian a noun. The job of the adjective is to modify the noun. So that you must always make Christianity the noun, uh, concomitant to its adjectival or declaration. But if you put your Christianity in the adjectival position, your color or culture, and the noun position, then your noun of your humanity must always adjust to the adjective of your faith. So our humanity must always be adjusted to our Christian faith and to the lordship of Jesus Christ. You hear this? I say this to us as a community of faith, a family, and to a large listening audience. We all have a long way to go. No one has clean hands. We're tainted by sin. But the Lord Jesus Christ, He is the answer. May we live it out. May we learn to listen well. May we continue to grow. Have incredible patience with one another and be different because of Him in our lives. Amen.
Would you join me in thanking these three individuals today? And let us pray. Dr. Abro, I'd like to recommend a couple of books here. Oh, yes. Go ahead. You're going to recommend, and then you ask him to go ahead. Okay. Real quick, *Kingdom Race Theology: God's Answer to Our Racial Crisis* and, uh, *Oneness Embraced: A Kingdom Race Theology and Reconciliation, Unity, and Justice*. I've not read the first one. You mentioned you need to read *Oneness Embraced*. You must indeed. Thanks for bringing those. Tony, thanks very much. Appreciate that.
Let's pray. Lord, thank you for today. Thank you for these dear brothers. I thank you for this topic. We need Your help as we move forward. Lord, none of us are who we want to be. May we follow in the footsteps of our Savior every day through His life of sacrifice and service. May we follow Him faithfully. In Jesus' name, we pray. Amen.
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