Transcription
I took all the most replayed moments from some of the interviews you'd done and I looked at those moments. So, I went through all the YouTube interviews you've done and there's basically the spikes in conversation are the parts that people replayed over and over again and I've got them all written here.
Wow. Like what? I can give them to you after. People are so compelled when I tell them that we do that. The first one was about cheating, but specifically this idea that even people in open relationships cheat as we can't resist what is forbidden. The situation you were describing there seems stereotypically like a situation where the the man would then go on to cheat because his needs aren't being met.
Why do people cheat? Ah, I mean I because we we tend to think it's because one person isn't getting what they want or because one person's a bad person or Look, people cheat for a host of reasons. Some of them have to do with the relationship. A loneliness is probably the biggest one.
I was going to say, oh, the variance between men and women when they cheat. Ah, all right. So the first one is why do people cheat? The second one is is there a difference between infidelity in men and in women. So um let's go let's start with the first thing. Okay.
Um I mean I put much of this in the state of affairs in the book because I had spent 10 years studying affairs and infidelity. So when you ask me how many couples, it's a lot of couples. And um and I really thought this experience is so shattering in so many relationships. There must be another way to understand it. It is more complicated than and there's so much suffering around it. I want to really delve into this deeper.
So people cheat because they're lonely. They cheat because they have been sexually frustrated for so many years. They cheat because they are resentful. They cheat for vengeance and vindictiveness. They cheat because they um need to constantly be affirmed by anybody that can make them feel better about themselves. They cheat for a host of reasons that have to do with conflict and discontent and disconnection in their relationship. But they also sometimes have affairs that have nothing to do with the relationship. And that's what was one of the big discoveries for me in the book. It was that sometimes that affairs happen in happy couples too. And that sometimes it's not that you want to leave the person that you are with as much as you want to leave the person that you have yourself become. And that it's not that you want to meet another person as much as you want to meet another self or other parts of yourself that have disappeared in your life. And that at the heart of affairs you find betrayal and duplicity and lying and cheating. But at the heart of affairs you also find longing and loss and yearning. And the word that I heard the most, and this brings us right back to the beginning of our conversation all over the world. I've gone to 22 countries on this one, is that when people would describe their affairs, they would say how they they talked, I'm not talking about paid sex, every night sex. I'm talking about affairs and you know, in a more meaningful sense, but people really talked about the fact that they felt alive.
So affairs are erotic plots. They're they're not just about sex. Actually, they're about feeling alive and reconnecting with some with an essence of something for many people, but they're many different stories around affairs. For most of history, men have basically had a practically had a license to cheat. And it was explained that they are more nomadic and rors and concistadors and that they are more quickly bored and they are in need of novelty. I mean basically we gave them all kinds of justifications to explain you know and to rationalize why it happens to them and not to women when in fact it didn't happen to women because the consequences were far more dire on women than on men.
So we said that when women cheat it's because they are lonely and they are in need for intimacy and you know we de all of these stories have been kind of rewritten from by now. The biological consequences of a woman cheating were she would get pregnant back in the that's why she'd get destitute. Yeah. She'd lose her children. She had I mean come on we're talking till the 70s women didn't have access to their own bank accounts. On what was she going to survive? She would be working with the scarlet letter. She I mean everything you want. So the consequences on women women have not necessarily had different aspirations or fantasies than men but the women have done what makes them safe more than what they would actually what makes them feel good.
I felt like I was alive. Yeah. You hear that from people who have cheated on their partner. Does that then infer that one of the causes of cheating is that it felt like the relationship or us as a three, me, her, or me, him, and the relationship we're dead or Yes. deadant. Yes. An affair is often experienced as an antidote to that kind of deadness. Yes. But of course, my next sentence would be, if people were to put 10% of the creative imagination that they put into their affairs, into their marriages or primary relationships, those relationships would be doing so much better if they put the planning in the planning, the attention, the creativity, the messages, the the hundred texts, the flowers, the the the I mean the whole thing, the production, you know, if people were bringing that full self so to speak that creative imaginative effervescent self that they bring to their lovers to their relationship their relationships would not be agonizing do we need novelty of course we do and how do we get 40 years into a relation you're almost 40 years into your relationship into your marriage you give me think once if you're trapped you give me you look like you're trapped by far not how do you keep the novelty 40 years in doing new things together.
If you do, this is the research of Eli Finkel in the all or nothing marriage is that if you do the things that you enjoy but habitually we like to go to this cafe to this mountain, this hike, this restaurant, this beach, you know that that breeds a lot of friendship and warmth and satisfaction. But if you want to experience desire, it is wanting something that you don't yet have. It's exploring something that you don't yet know. And that means that couples who do new things together that involve an element of risk, not because it's dangerous. New things together could be a conversation that they've never had. New things could be going to a hotel, something outside of the ordinary, you know, that you don't do anymore when you are together for 40 years or 20 years, whatever it is. It's that that the the regeneration of new cells, putting yourself into situations where you are not predictable to each other. And so you look suddenly at each other and it's like, what was that like for you? And what was that like for you? And this we know is one of the elements that creates aliveness in relationships. I mean that that is the distinction. Now not everybody wants that and that's okay too.
Is there a part of when you've been cheated on that you suddenly value your partner more? I say that because it it highlights that someone else was attracted to them and then presumably you're kind of seeing them through not as like Dave who just comes home and just lays ver like horizontal. That is one of the responses. There are many different responses. But when you ask people when do you find most drawn when I can ask you when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Not just sexually attracted but most drawn. What would you say?
When I one of the one of the times was when I went and saw her doing her thing at work. So when I go and see her doing her thing in the breath work studio, it's like looking at a completely I guess a new person in a in some way. That's right. That's right. And what would be another one? When other people know how be notice how beautiful she is. Right. Right. Right. So, you've just basically named two out of the three most important answers I have heard for decades now about this one. Worldwide. By the way, there's only, you know, I'm most drawn to my partner when I see my partner in their element. Oh, interesting. Passionate about something competent. And it could be on stage, on a horse, on a slope, whatever it is, on a piano. It's when I see my partner as a separate other person that is already so familiar, but that is yet again somewhat mysterious, somewhat unknown, somewhat elusive. And in that moment when they are radiant and in their element they don't need me. She's not pursuing you. She's doing her thing. And that space between me and the other is where lies the erotic elo. This is the bar none the most important one. The second one is when people talk about I'm drawn to my partner when we reunite when we've been away from each other. God which is the second one you told me before when you talked about the other one. And the third one is when I see my partner through the eyes of a third. And that allows me to see my partner not just as my partner as Bob, but as a separate person who other people see things that I no longer pay so much attention to.
So, can we create that in our relationships? Yeah. I can go watch her do her thing in her element. I can create some distance. We spend time apart. I travel. I do my own thing. Whatever. And also, I don't know. I go and ask guys if my girlfriend's hot. I mean, you can do it that way, but um, of course, she needs to have her breath work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There needs to be something that, you know, it can be breath work. It can be what she's done with the house, what she does with with with other careers or or or with her parents or with her children. It doesn't have to just be, you know, can it just be lingerie? Can't it just be like a new I have rarely heard somebody say that. And because also I wasn't talking about I'm attracted to. I asked you what I'm drawn to. Okay. And that drawn to is a very particular. But this answer when I went and I saw her do her thing is bar none the number one. So interesting. And I I mean and the only one by the way that is gender specific is when women say when he plays with the kids because it is not you know when a woman plays with the kids it's called motherly. It's not drawn to and that's the only one that is gender that is gender different or specific. All the others I I mean I can't tell you the the breadth of different countries where the same answer. There's something about this thing, you know, I'm drawn to is an it's a movement towards and that movement towards is because there is an other and that other means there's a bridge to cross and that bridge to cross is that erotic energy and that's what cheating is. Yes.
So can people experience that in their own relationship? Yes. But of course it demands recreating it. I mean you know we are living twice as long. Not everybody's going to be married for 60 years and we're working from home. That is recent. But yes, that Dave sat over there all day and is Yeah, that was killer for a lot of people is to see you the whole day doing the doing your thing. It's a it it strengthened the friendship for many people and it lessened the erotic for many people, you know. But I I think that seeing her do her thing or her saying that to you or I I I I find it a very beautiful answer because it really says when I see the other as an other, it was like meeting her for the first time. That's what it felt like the first time I went to one of her breath work sessions and I I was just kind of hiding in the corner. I was completely irrelevant. It was like spying. And she's got all of her, you know, her clients there. There's 25 of them. They're all hypnotized, so none of them even know I'm there. She's doing her thing. I'm like, who is this person? And who are all these people and what's this place? And it felt like I was, I guess, meeting her for the first time in a in a way. Um, it's beautiful. And also, they have a different relationship with her. And me as a partner, we become kind of encrusted in a certain way of being with each other. That's why the opening up in the triangular gaze is so important. how others see her allow you to see her differently again. And that is all generative. Those are all new cells.
I'll read you these most replayed moments anyway, just so you know them. And there's I mean, we got a bigger list of them, but I just pulled off the ones that I thought were pertinent. The things that all erotic couples do, have sexual privacy. Foreplay is crucial. Have an erotic space where they abandon their usual roles, responsibilities, and desire don't go together. The difference between men and women cheating um is how to balance love and desire and erotic is being engaged and giving the best of yourself to your partner whereas most people give their best of theirself to their friends, their colleagues and give their partners the leftovers. And then in our other guests that we had on that speak about relationships and love, the five most replayed moments from those conversations were the best techniques for dating apps and different attachment theories. So attachment theories is very popular. M um Paul talked about the importance of longer engagement periods in being physically but not sexually attracted to someone. Marissa Pier is about sexless relationships again and Tracy Cox who again is been talking about sex relationships for about 20 years. Tracy Cox I know oh is what her most replayed moment was why hot sex stops after two years in a relationship and the only way to keep going is by swapping in partners constantly and never finding long-term happiness. It's a myth that you can keep hot sex in a long-term relationship easily. That's true. You can have it on occasion here and there if you think about it as hot like that. That's true. Um and that's not necessarily the goal of many people either. I think you know there are people for whom this is essential in their life and it it it's the gate that opens them up to a lot of other important experiences in their life and then there are people for whom this is not nearly as central. They enjoy it but they they don't need it to be hot. They enjoy the what is often called maintenance sex. Erotic couples have a lot of maintenance sex and on occasion they get suddenly this really you unusual hot you know different wow it's been a while out of nowhere but they have actually a lot of of maintenance and and they do have an understanding of not just I'm drawn to this person who is different from me but also a person who has their own erotic interiority of them of their own and they don't and they are okay with that they're not threatened by it because because each of them have thoughts and fantasies that are not necessarily just about the relationship.
Of course, how do we conclude our conversation? Yeah. Like how do we conclude? We've talked about relationships, love, connection, all of these things in between. Is there a throughine of advice, a conclusion that would help people? Maybe something with a that is actionable, maybe something that feels somewhat easy or simple, maybe not easy. We can go back to the things that we talked about together and about you as well. I said to you relationships is an active engagement. It demands uh risk. It demands vulnerability and it demands accountability which we didn't talk about them as much. Typically when people are in trouble they want the other person to change and to do the work. And I said if you want to change the other change yourself. Ask yourself, what can I do that would make it better? And do it. And don't begin to say, but why me? And but but you know, just do your thing because it's ultimately what you want. Because there is such a thing called enlightened self-interest. Do it because it's the relationship you want. The relationship is the third. It's exactly the way you said it. So when you are about to say or do something, ask yourself what will this do to the relationship if I do this now or if I say this now or if I don't say this now and do things not because they suit you but because they suit the relationship because ultimately the relationship is there to serve you but it's a back and forth. Love is a verb. I think it's a very important thing and that means you you actively do a bunch of things. I mean it's the same with food. You know, some people just are okay eating whatever is in their fridge and most of the time there's nothing on the shelf. It's a but some people are actively searching the right ingredients. They go to this market, to this store, they put it together. There's an art to that. It's an art a relationship. And that art you can bring to your love relationship as well. I think a lot of people end up in a rut because they're complacent, they're lazy, they're unimaginative, and they have a lot of imagination for a lot of stuff outside, but not with their partner, and then they say, "I'm bored." Well, then that it didn't, you know, do something. Um, and and it's amazing how hard it is for some people to do it.
One of the things I think is really interesting, imagine instead of the DMs and stuff, you know, we just had a long conversation and this evening when you go and wherever you stay and you just basically write a letter and you write a letter to your partner and just say, you know, I had this woman there today and we talked about all this stuff and and it made me think, it made me think about the first time when we met and I told her about being there in the background watching you do this work and and I realized that it's been a long time since I watched you do this work and I probably should show up again because I don't even know what you've been doing since I don't do the same thing as five years ago or however long you are together can't imagine that you are and I realize that you know I expect a certain kind of coziness but then I'm thinking oh where is the novelty and I don't pursue the novelty but there is novelty I have been doing new things you must have been doing new things why am I asking you know is novelty important it is and it's there but I need to go look for it. And I was talking about the maintenance sex and I was talking about the shower and I was talking about so many moments between us and I just thought I should share this with you. When people sit down with themselves and they start to write, you know, I've been thinking about us and it's been a long time since I even said any of these things. I mean, man, this is like filling up a tank of gasoline. Why? because you say, "I value this and I value you and I value what we've created and we matter and it's important and I cherish it and I adore it and I and I sometimes don't pay enough attention to it and I just take it for granted and and that is not a good thing to do. It's like food that stays on a shelf for months on end. Well, it rots and there's something about something fresh and it's it bec it it breaks through the calcification. It is a lubricant in the full sense of the word.
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