Transcription
[Music] In this episode, we will learn how to live in truth and dear from an author and activist whose work is built on the belief that everyone deserves and is capable of finding peace and warrior-like strength within themselves. Welcome to the show, Sandy. How are you doing?
Thanks, Toby. I'm very happy to be here with you. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode all the way from Montreal for a soulful conversation. I really appreciate your time right now, and I'm so thankful that you released this gift to the world since February 2023, The Courageous Circle. Oh, sorry, The Courage Circle. Um, I don't know why I added courageous to it. The Courage Circle to the world, and I'm looking forward to just learning everything about this book from you in this conversation. Um, you know, before we go into that, I would just love to learn from you personally because I know you, you know, you are, um, you know, a lawyer for 20 years, or you are teaching law for 20 years, and after that, you started facilitating, um, workshops for young and experienced adults. Can you tell us your journey of, you know, switching lanes and, um, what motivated you to move in this direction?
Um, what motivated me is basically suffering. So, a lot of times, a lot of things come out of, uh, difficult moments. I guess, like for a lot of people, the past several years were very difficult for me. And so I just spent a lot of time, uh, with myself, uh, listening to a million talks, uh, crying, writing, doing anything and everything. And I started taking many notes. I like to call them my sanity notes to keep me sane. And, uh, these notes came together, and, you know, they did become my book, The Courage Circle. But more importantly, they were my pieces of my puzzle in order to kind of walk around in this world feeling okay. And I realized that for most people, this is not, um, a common thing. So they don't really walk around feeling like, um, you know, just feeling fine and knowing how to navigate in life. Um, and so I decided to start after doing the book circles where, uh, we sit around together, we discuss some of the pieces of my puzzle, and hopefully, some of them resonate with other people in the circle and, um, and form a piece of their puzzle because, after all, we're all human beings. So certainly, there must be some overlap and similarities in, you know, what works for one person and what works for another person. So this is what I do now.
That's beautiful. Uh, I would just love to ask this short question, like, um, the circle and The Courage Circle, does it have to do with the community that we build up, or is, what does the circle mean?
Yeah, so, uh, the interesting part of the circle, I think the most important part happens right at the beginning, like the first 10 minutes, basically. So, so we sit around, and there is no, um, you know, type of person that attends. It's really anybody and everybody that attends, any age, any race, any nationality, any profession, anything. And we sit around in this circle, and we start off by, um, I ask everyone to say their title, you know, or their CV, basically. So I start, yes, I'm a graduate of law school, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And everyone says their kind of their CV, as we're used to doing in the world. So I'm an architect, a programmer, I'm this, I'm between jobs, whatever it is. Um, and then what I invite everyone to do is actually to drop it all. You know, drop your title, drop your kids, drop your dog and cat and everything else, and to try to deal with each other, uh, in the room, at least from a different place, like from our essence, or from our humanity, or something a little bit deeper than, you know, just these kind of things. Um, and so doing that right away, you know, really puts us on a certain footing in the room, uh, around the circle. Uh, and then the next thing I do is I try to demonstrate different types of listening that exist in our world, and you must have experienced many of them. Um, if you want, I could tell you about that quickly. It's actually a super important part of our circle.
Yeah, so I mean, my experience is that there's been like three main different types of listening that I experience. So let's say, well, Toby, do you mind sharing something with me? Like, whatever, something you're, doesn't have to be too deep or difficult, but just something like, whatever, I'm nervous about this, or whatever, just anything that you're comfortable with, obviously.
Yeah, okay. And what comes to the top of my mind, because maybe that's what I'm currently, you know, maybe dealing with right now, is the, I'm nervous about making a, a choice in career change or job change.
Yes. Okay. So, so that's what I do in the group. To start our group, we'll say, okay, can someone just say something? So you just said something that is really, basically 100% true, right? So, uh, what that's what we try to look at in the group. And so the first type of listening, we can call them like dismissive or gaslighting, or something else, or whatever. And so instead, you know, if we imagine ourselves like a mirror, like I'm a mirror, a human mirror that's reflecting Toby. That person literally puts down the mirror, and it's like, you, they didn't see anything, they didn't see the truth. So they might say something like, oh, really? Oh, okay. So like, you know, what's, uh, on the football game tonight? Oh, really? Oh, yeah, everybody has that. Or, you know, something just very dismissive, gaslighting. So it doesn't really reflect the truth, right, of what you just said. So it's a very unhealthy thing to interact with, and we interact with it, you know, so many times a day. It's quite unhealthy for everyone.
Second type would be a person who kind of like, they kind of heard you, uh, a little bit. So maybe they raised the mirror a bit, but then they put it down really quickly, and they want to fix a situation, fix you, or save you, or give you advice, or something like that, right? Um, so that person might do something like, oh, really, Toby? Okay, you know what? When I get nervous, all I do is I take a hot shower, and I'm really fine, and I'm sure you're going to be fine, and you're going to, you know, whatever, like, and if you need something, just let me know, and I know a really good, you know,
[Interruption in audio]
CBR in transmission. We'll just keep on recording. So Sandy comes back when she comes back. The recording will continue. I believe I don't want to also have two clips, so just stick to this one. Sandy is coming back soon. The good internet connection. And there she is. Oh, I'm so sorry. I was told that, um, internet connection or something like that. Yeah. So, did you hear the first one, the gaslighting one? I, I heard gaslighting, but I didn't know. I didn't know what you said afterwards.
Okay, so why don't I restart this one if you'd like? So let's say the first type of listening would be what we call like, uh, dismissive or gaslighting, right? So if we imagine ourselves as human mirrors, they put up the mirror, but instead of like, really reflecting the truth of what you just said, Toby, they just kind of put it down quickly. So they'll say, oh, really? Okay, okay, I hear you. Uh, you know, like, also, did you hear about that restaurant tonight? That, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, oh, yeah, everyone has that. Or something. So that's, you know, dismissive or gaslighting. They're not really seeing, you know, the reality in front of them, and it's really harmful for us. And a lot of people do this, and it's very unhealthy in terms of relationships, right? And then the second type, um, you know, again, if we imagine ourselves as a mirror, so they put it up, and then but they put it down really quickly. Like they see it, but I'm not really comfortable with this. So they put it down really quickly. They want to fix the situation, fix the person, uh, solve the problem quickly, rescue someone, give advice, you know, just fix it all. So that kind of fixing energy would be something like, oh, really, Toby? You're nervous? Really? I mean, the best thing you could do, just take a nice bath, and, you know, you'll probably feel better, like a little bit later today. Or, you know, I really know a great therapist or whatever. And hope you can, you know. So they're need to fix you or fix a situation. And that, you know, often gives the message to people that either something is wrong with them, you know, that they're having this problem or emotion or whatever else it is, and that they can't figure it out. So it's really giving, like, really unhealthy underlying messages, I believe, when this happens. And then the third type of listening is simply to listen and and reflect what you're hearing, um, with the other person. And then, um, so for example, that would just be like a clean mirror. Uh, so Toby, it sounds like you're a little bit nervous because you're making some choices and they're about your career, and you're really not sure where to go. So it's making you a little bit nervous, right? So that's just healthy listening. And when we do that, it allows people to just, you know, open up and maybe share a little bit more and see, you know, what to do about things and whatever else. So, uh, we establish this as the way that we're going to listen to each other in the room. So this happens all in the first, you know, 10 minutes. We've all, you know, let go of our titles, said hi to each other in a healthy way, and practiced this listening. And then we discuss new topics every single week. We discuss different things, but from that kind of space, right, from that kind of, uh, energy in the room. And it's just unbelievable, you know, the amount of openness and honesty that happens in the room immediately. And people don't know each other. Uh, they don't, you know, there's nothing else that happened there, but these two elements allow people to do that. And then to eventually maybe encourage each other to deal with whatever, or, you know, to express things, share things. And so it's, uh, just a remarkable thing that it's possible in our world to have a room of people interact this way. Like, for me, I, I love to go just to witness that this is possible. It is possible for people to do this, you know?
It is wonderful. Yes, I believe it's very important for us to have that courage circle where we could feel free to open up about whatever we're going through, and we have that, you know, feeling and acknowledgement that we are truly being listened to. Yes, that's good. And, you know, releases that burden off our shoulders, basically, right? And then we discuss actual real topics too, each time. You know, last time we discussed the topic of, you know, is something wrong with you? Or, uh, this week we're going to talk about avoiding conflict. And, you know, people share about their experiences, how they deal with it. And, um, you know, I obviously share with my experiences of many of these topics and what I've learned for myself in terms of a lot of these topics, and, you know, how to find peace in ourselves with all these topics. So it's just, uh, very interesting to be in that room, and there's a lot of wisdom and honesty and, um, that comes out of everybody in the room.
Yeah, that's beautiful. Wow. Um, yeah, I would love for us to talk about your book right now, the Courage Circle. And, um, I'm so, you know, excited to be talking about this because in this book of yours, you, you help us to, or you encourage us, basically, to stand up for ourselves. And this is something that we actually need in this day and age. So can you tell us more about the book and what's inspired you to write it?
Um, I mean, there's many aspects to standing up for yourself. It's not necessarily, you know, going and banging at people's heads or anything. That's certainly not what I'm talking about. But, you know, um, you know, learning to value yourself and love yourself, and then do what you think you need to do for yourself, whatever that might be. So sometimes we have to put difficult boundaries because that's what's healthy for us, right? And that could be sometimes upsetting to other people because they think we should do differently than we think we should do. But ultimately, we're the best person that knows what we require, right, to feel okay. And so I definitely encourage people to, you know, to learn how to say, uh, no. But I don't mean no like in a negative way. It's more like saying yes to yourself. No, which means, you know, I can't go out, I'm very tired today. Or no, I'm not an idiot. Or no, you know, whatever it is that's happening in front of you. And this can sometimes, you know, disrupt the outside world, you know, things outside of you. Um, but ultimately, I mean, if you think about it, when we talk about this word, like keeping the peace, right? So people are trying to kind of keep the peace, but this is trying to manipulate or keep peace outside yourself, right? So you don't want to disrupt. There's a family dinner or something, and I don't want to make problems or off the boat, or I want to keep the peace. So you don't say anything, or you tolerate, um, people talking to you in a way that's disrespectful or things like that, in order to keep the peace. But then internally, you're not okay, right? So you're not at peace. And so what I do encourage is for people to, you know, do what they have to do. Maybe at that event, you might decide to leave, or maybe tell the person, you know, how you're feeling about whatever is going on. And that might cause, you know, disruption. But at the end of the day, that would lead you to have more peace inside, right? That's really what matters the most, to have your inside peace. And then, you know, once you do that, you will be a healthier person in the world, right? Everything you do will be more peaceful because what happens on the inside will happen on the outside. Yeah. And so I encourage people to, um, to stand up for that because unfortunately, most people have spent, uh, most of their lives being put down, you know, in one way or another, you know, subtly, indirectly, directly. You know, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. This is not enough. Why don't you do that? You have to perform this way, you have to perform that way. It's just constant, right? People telling each other what they do. A lot of controlling behavior, basically.
Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, that's so deep. I mean, I didn't even know what to say to that because you said it all already, and I'm just reflecting and like, wow, yeah, of course. Um, a lot of times, a lot of people find themselves unfortunately in this kind of situation in which they're told what to do. And if they don't do it that way, there are consequences to that. And that's where they don't truly find themselves, basically. They don't know who they are because they have to conform to the norms of the society and do things exactly the way they've been told, even right from their birth up to the moment, you know, that they are. They don't even know if they actually love what they're doing. They just do it because they're told to do it. But then how do we?
Yeah. And there's, please go ahead. Please.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're saying basically true. Like, we're taught, you should do this, do that, whatever. And we think there's some kind of a, you know, ranking system or something in our world. Like, you get more points if you're this, and you get more points if you do that. And it's just absolutely untrue, right? So if somebody once came into my circle, and they have, uh, social anxiety, but they managed to come and, you know, sit in the room. Like, how many points do we give that? You know, it doesn't even make sense to talk about points like that, right? You know, if I smiled at my neighbor, do I get a point? Like, this whole point system is a bit of nonsense. And we're all seem to be trying to accumulate some kind of, uh, points outside instead of just, um, you know, realizing that inside, we're fine. You know, we're good. There's nothing wrong. Nothing wrong inside. And then, okay, let me see what I have to do. So instead of trying to, to allow other people to decide, um, your points, basically, you kind of take all that back and and don't give that power to another human being, basically. So, for example, I'm not going to say, Toby, you decide if I'm okay or not. You know, I'm not going to do that. Yeah. And I hope you don't do that either, right? We, you can kind of take that yourself.
Yeah. Yes, exactly. And, um, what can we then do, or what can we do when we finally have that courage to take that power back from the world and, you know, live our true lives? What can we do then to accept ourselves, you know, as who we are? Because, you know, sometimes if you follow the norms for a long period of time, and all of a sudden, you, you fought for your freedom, and then you realize, oh, this is who I am. To be, oh my God, how can I accept myself for who I am?
For me, what it really starts with is, um, no more demonizing of our emotions. So that, for me, is a first step. It's not like the only step or something, but I think over the past 5,000 years or something, emotions have been demonized as if there's something, you know, bad about them. Like, you know, if you're sad, or if you're angry, or anything else, just having feelings is somehow a problem, which doesn't make sense, right? We're kind of human beings, and it, they are actually our guiding system. They're actually, um, something we should listen to. So if we're sad, and we listen to it, instead of saying, oh, I shouldn't feel sad, you know, I should be grateful, or I should, I should, I should, just say, well, why am I sad? Like, and listen to it, and look at it, and and feel it. Well, maybe we'll learn something. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm lonely. Maybe I need to find a friend. Or maybe we need to still grieve or have old emotions we need to process that we didn't get to process because, you know, maybe parents or the situation didn't allow for any feeling. They said, no, you're not allowed to feel anything except happy, for example. It happens a lot in homes, right? Or if we get angry, we're like, oh, this is a terrible thing. It's not a terrible thing, you know, to feel angry. We're not saying you're going to do anything. We're not going to hit anyone or aggress anyone, but just to feel. There's nothing wrong with that. If we feel it, maybe we need to, you know, take a certain action or set a boundary, or, you know, you know, experience old feelings that need to process, or we had trauma. So this demonizing of emotions often will keep us, you know, stuck. So learning to feel our emotions and trust them a bit and let them pass and, you know, experiencing them, you know, doing things in the body instead of just in the head. Definitely, that would be for me, a, a very good first step to getting to know yourself very well and deeply, you know. And it takes time, especially if there's a lot of old wounds to process in our bodies, which I think most people have. But eventually, once we have felt all this pain and all the, whatever, then they process, and then then we're cleared up from them, right? So yes, do things in the body and not just in the head.
I love that. I love that. Yeah, yeah. We've been decorated, like our, our bodies have been cut off, and we just live in the head instead of living in our bodies and feeling, you know, our hearts and our heart space and our emotions and everything else that is actually, uh, in reality, right? Our thoughts are not really, uh, in reality, the same way our bodies are.
Yeah, that's true. I, I would love to learn from your own personal story. You, you said, I mean, we have to, like, you know, really process those emotions that we've that we have. And I just love to learn from your personal story of, you know, when you had, or when you were going through those adversities in life, how were you able to process, you know, those situations that you went through, the emotions that you went through, and how were you able to come out of it, you know, as who you are right now, a champion?
Well, I mean, it was very, very difficult, right? Because you have to go towards your pain instead of avoiding your pain, right? We can avoid our pain by going to, uh, Netflix, or even sometimes exercise. Like, we do a lot of things to avoid those things. So I guess I was starting to go towards, uh, those things. And then I started to feel a lot of it, you know, so feeling, they say you have to feel to heal. So I had to go through, um, all of that. And then I had to have a lot of courage to set boundaries. And that was very hard because not everybody agrees with you when you say no to things, or, you know, so that takes courage to somehow have to stand alone, even sometimes in your own truth of what you feel you need to do in your life, or what's going on. So that's another kind of very difficult, uh, step. And then, um, a big step for me was also really getting to know myself deeply, to realize, like, you know, if internally we are okay, right? Or, you know, whether you want to call it your soul, your spirit, your energy, uh, your heart, whatever it is, you know, it's good. It's nothing wrong with it. Once we come to that realization, then we can start to actually see our behaviors that are not good, you know, then we can see our mistakes and our behaviors because it doesn't affect us internally. They're just our behaviors or mistakes. So I started being able to see more and more, oh gosh, I did that, not a good idea, or whatever. I could see more of my own, you know, behaviors that was not healthy, whether for me or for others, or anything, because it was no longer me, you know, me is something a little bit deeper, you know, and those things are learning and experiences and mistakes. So I had to, you know, redirect many, many ways in terms of how I was behaving myself. Um, and then learn to, you know, behave in a way that is more healthy for myself and for others around me. But so that took, you know, learning to forgive myself, forgive others, you know, a lot of pieces to the puzzle, like I say, it's not like one thing, there's so many pieces to a puzzle in order to arrive at a place of feeling basically okay and trusting yourself, um, you know, as you make your decisions. Um, those were definitely some of the pieces. And, you know, spending a lot of time, uh, with yourself in your body, not in your head, which means doing things like grounding, dancing, meditating, yoga, anything that's in the body will get you more in touch, you know, with yourself to to learn how to follow yourself and your inner, your compass, right? Your inner compass.
Yes, follow your inner compass. Yes. Stay grounded. Live in your body, not just in your head, and follow your inner compass. I love that. Yeah. And one thing I would love us to touch, you know, um, from your book also is, you know, now that we are accepting ourselves for who we are without taking permission from the world, it's also important for us to then, you know, set, set and keep healthy boundaries for ourselves. How do we do this without causing havoc?
Well, boundaries. So it took me a long time, and I'm not saying I'm right or wrong about it, it's my experience. But it took me a long time to understand what boundaries are. So boundaries are not like rules, like I'm going to tell you, you know, you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that. That's my boundary. That's not really what they are. What they are is what you feel, you know, right now, you need. And they don't, they could be temporary, they could be permanent. Um, and it's not about controlling the other person. It really is about you taking care of yourself, or what you feel at the moment, right? So let's say, um, you speak to me in a way that I find very disrespectful. I say, right during the thing. So setting about, if I get kind of upset about it, that usually tells me, oh, you know, my boundary is getting broken. So I listen to that, first of all, right? So I'm not going to ignore that feeling. If I get that feeling, I'm going to listen to myself and say, oh, I'm feeling like this is not okay. Doesn't mean I get to to do anything to you, right? But definitely, I will respect that feeling. I might need a moment to calm down sometimes, if it got very high, my, my upsetness or something. But then, uh, our power sits in making choices in the moment of clearly, this is outside my boundary for whatever reason it is. Maybe I'm just very exhausted today, and I can't take, you know, certain volume. Like, it doesn't have to be a certain rule. It could be anything that I feel, um, at the moment that I can, you know, manage, or I can, you know, tolerate or not tolerate, you know. And so my choice at the moment will be, you know, what, I'm going to get off this podcast, so bye, Toby, and just hang up, right? That's a choice. Um, or I might say something, what I'm feeling, or I might, you know, tell you later. Like, we get many, many choices what to do in setting these boundaries. And of course, you know, it's hard because, like I said, people are afraid of, you know, conflict, and they always want, you know, to please people or to be liked, and all that. It's a very difficult thing to start to realize, you know, what's most important is that I'm okay with myself, or that I feel okay. And if I keep just trying to please other people, then it's going to not be good for me, right? So you really have to, uh, take care of yourself. And that is not selfish, right? Taking care of yourself and loving yourself is not selfish. It's your responsibility. Responsibility, actually. So yes, it would take a bit of courage, and it would be a bit uncomfortable to say, Toby, you know what, I, I really feel disrespected, but I'm getting off now. But that's what a boundary would be. So I'm not telling you you can't do it. I'm just making a choice what I'm going to do in this situation. And so most of the time, we, we have these some kind of choice in something. And noticing how we're participating in in those situations, right? Sometimes we are staying in something. Or, you know, if I keep telling you, I keep getting on this podcast every single week, I'm like, Toby, but I told you this way you're talking to me, I don't like it. Stop. I told you, I told you last week, I told you last week. Why don't you? Whereas actually, I could have the power to just say, I'm not doing this anymore, right? So starting to notice what we can do. But it's hard. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not to pretend it's easy. But it is definitely, at least for me, the right way to go in terms of finding your, your peace and finding your own health and your sanity. Because if you don't do it, what's the alternative? Then you're walking around, you know, always uneasy inside, right? It's not really solving the problem.
Yeah, I mean, to have to have that peace of mind, for you to enjoy that peace that you really want or deserve, you have to set those standards for yourself, set those boundaries for yourself, and keep them. Yeah. But I think you said what you said earlier is also very valid in terms of, you know, how you go about it is also very important. I think we also have to go about it in the most polite way, or friendly way, or the best way as possible, not aggressively and say, oh, Toby, calling me some some names and saying, what you said to me was bad, or something that way, we are also causing trouble in, you know, we're trying to set our boundaries also.
And that took me forever to really, uh, realize that, you know, to learn not to be, like I said, just like we learn not to be against ourselves, right? When we really learn not to be against ourselves, and we can accept that we're making mistakes or this and that, when you do that very deeply, then you can actually see that for the other person as well. So I could see, okay, they're yelling their heads off, clearly they're experiencing some problem or something is going on with them. It's not an excuse, it doesn't mean they get to keep doing whatever they're doing, but it allows us not to be against the person again, you know, you're against the behavior, but not against the person. So you don't want to, uh, you know, attack the person. Rather, you're just putting the boundary for you. You're not against the person. You're against maybe that behavior, and you are for you. Um, so really, you're always for everybody, right? You're for yourself, you're for them, but just there's certain behaviors that are not for you. No. And it took me, you know, a long time to learn to do, you know, what we can call loving boundaries, which can be extremely strict. Like, you could, you know, you can love someone and never talk to them, right? It is possible to say, I'm sorry, I cannot talk to you anymore at this point of my life because I'm not, you know, it's not good for me. But I do still love you, but from afar, because it's not working. It's possible.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. For your peace of mind, for the peace of mind, just love from afar. Yeah, sometimes that's what you need to do, temporarily or permanently, if that's what your boundary is for your own health. Yes. Yes.
Wow. I mean, that could be very difficult, but yeah, it's something that has to be done if it has to be done. Yeah. What was Sandy, then I have a question to this, you know, to boundaries and all of that. After we've set the boundaries for ourselves, after we are, you know, you set the standards for ourselves, and we're enjoying this peace, or let's say, before we start enjoying the peace, sometimes it comes into play that we start overthinking, saying, "Hmm, am I sure about this standard? Am I sure about this boundary?" And we start, you know, second-guessing ourselves, second-guessing what we want out of life. So how can we go about this? How can we avoid overthinking and avoid second-guessing our choices in life?
Uh, again, well, for me, at least, uh, it all has to do with, you know, starting to go back into the body again, right? So overthinking is a thinking, and it's not in the body. And so sitting, you know, with yourself. The first time I started like doing this, you know, years ago, it was in the middle of misery, but I was sitting there in desperation. I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna ask, like, what should I do? What should I do in this situation? How do I, what do I do? What do I do? You know, to try to hear some voice, or like, you know, anything, basically, just tell me what to do. Yeah. And what I heard was like, like a very clear voice that said, just quiet. And I'm like, oh, great. Like, the universe wants me to shut up, basically. But then I said, you know what? Maybe, okay, maybe I'm gonna listen to that little thing I just heard. And I actually sat a lot, and I was quiet a lot, and I was meditating a lot, and listening to a lot, and whatever. And I was quiet, um, actually for a long time. And so for me, what I learned to do when I'm confused or I'm not sure, I actually will sit, and I'm gonna sit and say, okay, what do I really feel I should do in my gut? No, you know, no other rules, just what do I feel I should do? What do I feel I should do? That's the question. And then, of course, it takes a little bit of trust, um, in yourself. And maybe just trusting life a little bit, that if that's what you feel, then, you know, it's going to work out. You might not see the results right away, or it might not work out the way you think it should, but it doesn't mean it's not the right way to go if that's what you deeply feel you should do, right? If that's what you deeply feel you should do, then, um, you know, learning to trust ourselves is so difficult because for many people, nobody has ever trusted them before. Yeah, nobody has ever said, oh, yeah, I trust you, Toby, you'll figure it out. You know what to do. You know what's best for you, right? People don't talk like that to each other with that energy. They're always like, I know what you should do, Toby. Best thing you should do is join this podcast thing and do this and do this, and that's the best thing you should do. Yeah. Isn't that what we hear 24/7? So how do we build this trust? It's hard, right? This self-confidence.
That's true. Yeah. So we have to, we have to learn to trust ourselves. Yes. Listen to yourself. You have an inner system that is perfectly built to guide you. You know, your body is telling you what to do and how to do it. And, you know, slowly it'll unravel and, and, um, you know, you'll process many feelings, and then there'll be a bit more clarity on, you know, do I feel like traveling here or no, actually, I don't. And that's it, without reason and justification all the time and everything. You know, you know, once you've cleared up many of those topics, like I said, then you kind of just trust. No, doesn't feel right for me. So today, it felt right for me to go on this podcast with you. I don't know how and why. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know who's going to see it, not see it, called, not called, like, we don't know, right? We don't know all these unknowns. No, but that's fine. Yeah. See what happens. Yeah. Just trust the process. Trust yourself. And just, yeah, yeah, don't overthink it.
Yeah. Yeah. The unknown is not a negative thing, right? What you don't know is not a negative thing. It's just you don't know yet. So, you know, the brain doesn't like that because it's like a calculator, and it likes to forecast everything. So if it can't forecast, it gets like a bit nervous, right? But it doesn't mean it's bad. Just because we can't predict it, it doesn't mean it's bad. It could be wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. We just can't predict it. So sometimes we have to let go of thinking we could, um, foresee everything, which is actually impossible because so many factors interact with each other every single moment. We can't actually foresee and organize life like that. We cannot control life like that anyway. No. So, yeah, you just make choices and and follow it and trust a little bit, um, you know, trust that unknown a little bit. And, uh, it'll work itself out.
Yes, trust that unknown a little bit and to work itself out. Keyword. Yes. Well, you know, okay, we, we are trusting this process already, and we are taking those steps. We, you know, we are building that confidence in ourselves already, inner system already. But then sometimes we have these negative thoughts that just creep in from time to time and shake us a little bit. How, how do we deal with them? How do we deal with these negative thoughts that just don't, you know, come at the right time, just, you know, sleeping, and then you just push us off our equilibrium?
They're very difficult, um, you know, so many people struggle with those. Um, you know, when I say emotions, we're talking about feeling sad, or anger, or excitement. Those are our emotions. But when we're talking about, you know, feeling guilt and shame and those kind of things, they're not really our emotions. They're more ideas that were put in our head by other people, you know, that you're not good, you're this, you're that, or whatever else. And, um, you know, they've been ingrained, basically, in our heads. So, quick example, I can give you a true story. Once I was walking by in a park outside, um, you know, waiting for to pick up my daughter, and there was a girl sitting there in a prom dress, maybe she was 13, 14, I don't remember exactly, but teenage age, all dressed up. And her mom was there, you know, screaming at her basically, and telling her, "You're such an idiot, you're such an idiot." And I don't know what, like, really nonstop. Not such an unusual story, maybe that it's in public, but it's not actually an unusual story in life, right? It happens a lot. And so in that specific situation, I actually made a choice. When the mom wasn't there, I, I went next to the girl and I go, "Yeah, but that's just a little story." But whether I said that or not, you can understand that this girl will definitely, or very likely, be older and have this, "You're such an idiot, you're such an idiot," running in her brain, right? She's internalized a sentence that came from somebody else. And often, you know, this inner critic is actually the voice of somebody else, not really our voice. So sometimes, um, we might need to stand up, kind of, to that critic a little bit. And, you know, there's all different things people do in therapy to that effect. So, for example, you might need to, like, you know, if that voice was actually a parent, for example, you might need to, like, uh, you know, in your own room, or with the therapist, feel some of the anger about how you were talked to, or whatever else, or stand up to it somehow. So there's different things to do that. And, um, also another part is just again, challenging if it's true. Like, is it really true what those sentences are saying? Is it really true you're a loser? You're this? Or you can't? Like, is that actually true? Or just thoughts that came? You know, the truth is more in the body. Truth. If you look in your own heart, you know, if you really, really sat with your heart, most people, I think, are capable of sitting and realizing, no, I'm not. I'm just, you know, I went through a lot of things. That's all. I just went through stuff. I'm not, nothing is wrong with me. I'm good. Deeply, you know, in a deep way, I'm good. Uh, it's just that I've gone through a million things. And so I'm struggling, or whatever. There's nothing to criticize there. It's the opposite. It's to be kind to each person because each person goes through so much in our lifetime.
The way that people treat each other. Yes. Yes. That's true. We have to, you know, realize that fact that we might have gone through a lot in life already, or, you know, experienced a lot, and maybe we're still processing it, or we are just coming out of that processing phase. So we have to take that into, you know, acknowledgement and then have compassion on ourselves, basically. And say, yes, I'm going to be compassionate with myself. I'm going to respect what I've gone through. And then I'm going to give myself love and be kind to myself and forgive myself.
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Why would you give yourself anything else? Exactly. You are the, you should be your best friend, or it should be the love of of your own life. So you should give yourself the best, the best. And that's love, kindness, and everything, everything wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And it took me a long time to to really realize that. But, you know, if you do that for yourself first, like, forget everybody else in the world, just learn to do that for yourself and, you know, take care of yourself, then later you can, you know, think about others and and deal with others. But really, first to get yourself at that place is so important. Is that exactly true?
Wow, Sandy. I've learned, I've learned a lot from you from this conversation. But, but before I let you go, um, I would love to learn something from you. You talked earlier about loneliness. So I just love us to quickly touch on that briefly. Like, how do you deal with loneliness and how can you come out of that lonely phase of life?
Um, I mean, I've had such deep periods of heartbreak and loneliness myself. And first of all, they were very difficult. So I won't pretend they were not. And, you know, there was a lot of times I had to comfort myself with anything I could, whether it's music, or anything. I put even massaging my own face sometimes, oh, difficult times, you know. Um, you know, but slowly I started to realize that, you know, what a lot of us are missing is true connections, and not just superficial connections. And to have a true connection with another human being, both people have to be, you know, this listening is very important, the type of listening, uh, that I was talking about, and the non, you know, criticism and and judgment and advising all the time, and putting down in a subtle way, and all these things have to be there. And it's very hard to find people that are, you know, able to do that. So we often feel disconnected. So sometimes we can find people that are a little bit bit like that, and we can talk to them and say, you know, do you mind just listening to me? I don't really need advice, but I just, you know, would like to hear, you know, want to hear me out, or can I share? And then if both people start to share without, you know, this fixing energy together, without fixing each other or advising each other too much, and without being asked, for example, then they can actually have connection. And that helps our loneliness, right? So in the circle, even though people don't know each other, you know, from the get-go, the fact everyone is like opening and and sharing that way, uh, I believe, you know, it helps, uh, for people to feel, you know, a bit of connection in a deeper way, which I think every human being craves and needs. As is a very essential part of our existence, right? To connect with ourselves, and then to connect with other people. And to do so, we need to be, uh, first, you know, with ourselves, non, uh, you know, open and looking at the truth and listening to ourselves. And then with others in that way. So hopefully, slowly but surely, uh, people that are doing work like you, Toby, and there's so many other people who are encouraging this type of relating, you know, hopefully, uh, you know, that just becomes contagious on others. And that there are stricter and stricter boundaries of each person places for themselves. And that's how I feel our world will improve with strict, you know, good boundaries and yourself, you know, doing things in a way that's healthy for yourself and healthy for the people around you. And hopefully, it's all contagious.
Yes, hopefully, it's all contagious. Wow, Sandy, thank you so much. I mean, I really appreciate everything you've talked about, everything you've taught me from this soulful conversation. Um, I just love you to tell us how we could get your book and also for people out there who love to get across to you, what's the best way to contact you also?
Um, well, my only contact is on my website. So on my website, it's called thecouragecircle.com. So if you want to join our Meetup, if you come to Montreal, you're welcome to join. They're free to join the circle and meet each other. And then there's other information there about my book or other things or to contact me. So just on the website, thecouragecircle.com.
Awesome. I'll put the link to your website in the show notes of this episode. So I encourage everyone out there to get across to you, to contact you, to get the book also, and then, yeah, become blessed, become do something contagious that will that is good actually for the world. Yes. Thank you so much, Sandy. I appreciate this.
Oh, thank you, Toby. I really appreciate. [Music] Hey there, podcast enthusiasts! Are you ready to add a little sparkle to your day? If you're loving the insightful conversations and captivating stories on Mirror Talk Podcast, here's a friendly nudge to hit that subscribe button! By subscribing, you'll never miss out on the empowering messages and thought-provoking discussions we bring to your ears. But wait, there's more! We're all about spreading positivity and inspiration, and you can be a part of it too! How? By sharing the love with your friends and family! Share this episode with your loved ones and let's create a ripple effect of empowerment and growth together! And hey, if you've been enjoying what you hear, why not take a moment to leave us a glowing five-star review? Your feedback fuels our passion to keep delivering content that resonates with you! So, hit that subscribe button, share the love, and leave us a review! Let's keep the conversation going and spread the Mirror Talk magic far and wide! Thanks for tuning in, and remember, your support means the world to us! [Music]