1 Conservative vs 25 LGBTQ+ Activists (feat. Michael Knowles) | Surrounded

In terms of reality, I'm gay married, right? Like, what is the point of this conversation? Because, because you're, you're not really married. I'm sorry, I'm going to outright call you a fascist and say what you're saying is hate speech. I have XX chromosomes. Michael, do you have XX chromosomes? Yeah. Would you call me she/her? Now, I don't. I, I'll, uh, I'll, looks, I'll, I'll defer it to you.

Hello, I'm Michael Knowles. I'm a conservative podcast host at The Daily Wire, I'm an author, and I'm a cigar salesman of Mayflower Cigars. And today, I am surrounded by 20 LGBTQ+ activists. My first claim is that there is no such thing as same-sex [Music] marriage.

Wow, nice to meet you. How are you, sir? Nice to see you. Doing well. So, your claim, what's the underlying philosophy of your claim? Well, uh, I, I guess the underlying historical part of my claim is that everyone for all of history, everywhere, until, and I'm being generous, 2001, agreed with my view that there's no such thing as same-sex marriage. So, it seems to me that marriage intrinsically requires sexual difference. Furthermore, I think that any claim that marriage could be redefined to include same-sex marriage would render the term marriage incomprehensible.

Would you say that this is based off of natural law and how Thomas Aquinas defines natural law? There's a good natural law argument for it, but I think it's based on more than that. It's more than that, based on anthropology. But then, what do you say that marriage is a set of legal rights, or is it a social role? I think marriage is an institution. I think it's the fundamental political institution. I, I think, uh, getting back to classical philosophy, that man is fundamentally a social animal. So, you know, I think at the rock of politics is the unit of the family, and, you know, of course, intrinsic to the family is marriage.

For all of those, especially with natural law, is just an assertion without evidence to back that claim, in that we see marriage over time in various cultures has been different things. In, in which cultures would you say you see same-sex marriage? I did not say same-sex marriage, particularly, but the role of it when it comes to family, when it comes to the conditions. Because we do also say that if somebody is lawfully married, especially in the eyes of the church, they cannot be divorced and then married again. Well, I, I oppose divorce and remarriage, but I'm making a more modest claim than that. I'm just saying that at its core, marriage necessarily involves two different sexes.

But how would you, how would you prove that? Because all of natural law is just this assertion. I can just as easily say the opposite, in that marriage is a set of leg. You keep bringing up natural law. I'm actually speaking even more basically. I love natural law, but I'm speaking even more basically than that. It seems to me that the only way that marriage could have a meaning is if it involves different sex. But once again, you're defining that meaning. But marriage essentially is a set of rights conferred from two spouses when it comes to inheritance, when it comes to the rights of the children, when it comes to a number of about 1,100 federal and state rights.

Okay, then what you're getting at is interesting. It might help us move forward. How, how would you define marriage? I would say marriage is a, a legal contract between individuals when it comes to a set of, uh, property laws, when it comes to family law, when it comes to children, and many other rights that are conferred. And we do see that those rights have been conferred to members of the same sex. And so, to say that same-sex marriage does not exist is not true, because see it. Well, you say that marriage, uh, entails rights pertaining to children. Well, two men cannot create a child. Neither can, uh, neither can. There are a number of couples that cannot have children. Sure. So, infertility sometimes occurs, and that's, that's unfortunate. And so does gay marriage? Well, no, gay marriage cannot occur. I guess, but you're asserting that without proof. We see that it does happen. And in that word that we mean marriage, you could say that there's such a thing as a square ball. You could say that, but a square ball doesn't.

Would you agree that there are people who have been lawfully wedded in the eyes of the government, and those two parties are members of the same sex? No, I'm saying that isn't possible. So, laws can assert all that without proof. Like, the law could say that a black person isn't a human being, but that wouldn't be true. That wouldn't make it true. Once again, when we get into this, uh, Aristotelian view of the world, that's an assertion.

Would you agree? You're bringing up Aristotle. I don't know. I'm not bringing up Aristotle. I like Thomas Aquinas. And in the, in the traditional view of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, are a view that you use to base your worldview off of? I am Catholic, but, but marriage actually even predates the church. So, I guess my view, your, your definition of marriage seems to get a little muddled. You say it's a legal arrangement of family. But to say that marriage is a legal arrangement pertaining to family is circular. Of course, it's a legal arrangement pertaining to. Saying, uh, when you, when you say it's an arrangement that pertains to children, you, well, okay, now we're getting closer, because only a man and a woman can produce a child in principle. Now, of course, some couples are infertile, but just because, you know, uh, a human being, let's say, loses an arm, doesn't mean that human beings only have one arm or might have arm components. And that necessary component doesn't come from anywhere. No, no.

Well, I'll give you my definition of marriage. Absolutely. I think marriage is a lifelong union between a man and a woman, ordered toward the procreation and education of children, and as a secondary matter, for the mutual support of the spouses. Well, once again, when we say ordered toward, is to look at the world, at the world with these preconceived notions about things. I'm not preconceived anything. I'm just, uh, I'm just observing nature as it is. No, I'm just observing nature, and I'm saying that that's what marriage is. Just we observing nature, we see that there are same-sex couples. So, if we go, we are observing. No, no, I'm not saying there can't be same-sex couples. I'm just saying there can't be same-sex marriage.

Are there same-sex individuals that have entered into a legal contract that the state recognizes as a marriage? Sometimes the, the state gets things wrong, as, as I am arguing. Is that a, is that a yes? That there are couples of the same sex that have been wedded in the eyes of the state? Since 2015, the US government pretends that that, uh, two men can be married to each other. But you're basing off of that nothing. You're basing that off of nothing. No, I'm basing it off of the Obergefell decision from the Supreme Court. They're pretending. They're acting as if two men can marry. According to you? No, according to the Supreme Court in the Obergefell decision. Pretend as if things exist outside of the institutions that we make. I'm just saying the word has a meaning, and I gave you a very clear definition of what I think it means, and what statistically everyone for all of human history, everywhere, has thought it means. And you've given me this kind of jumbled description that keeps contradicting itself. And that's my whole point. Is I think it is not possible to define marriage. I have nothing against. Who, according to who? Prove me wrong. Prove you wrong. Once again, are there couples in the US that have entered into a covenant that society views as marriage? As I, well, some people in society view it as marriage, but many do not. But you aren't the ones conferring rights to society. But, but I don't think that, uh, the government dictates reality. I think that if the government came out and passed a law and said that human beings are people with three heads and 17 arms and octopus tentacles, and so we decree the US government, that wouldn't make it true. What, who defines marriage?

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Nice. A pleasure to meet you. Good job. Close. Hey, good to meet you, Mindy. Nice to meet you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my name is Mason. But to meet you. Yeah, I'm Michael. Oh, gotcha. Wait, do you have a birth certificate? I, uh, not on me, but I do have one. Okay. Well, I, I can't confirm that your name is Michael until I see that birth certificate, just as a defender of objective truth. But we can go more into the prompt. Speaking about marriage, you could actually, if you have faculties of reason, and you say, well, this is the sort of fellow who presents himself, you know, in a credible way, and you've probably checked with the producers here, they've probably verified that I am who I am. So a reasonable person would be able to. Is that more performative characteristics? Is that what you're implying? Is that I'm able, with my faculty of reason, to assume that I'm speaking with a man in front of me, and therefore I can just politely go with the name that you're presenting to me, almost as an act of respect? No, I just think that I wouldn't have gotten in this building if I weren't really who I say I am. So that, that would be my deduction.

Bring back to the prompt. Going back to specifically same-sex marriage, um, are you, you said you argued from an anthropology, that's like your basis of, yeah, men and women are different, and marriage involves one of each. Yeah. Which specific culture are you referring to? Because we have so many cultures that have communal relationships in which people are raised. When you said in the act of procreation, have you ever heard of "it takes a village" to raise kids? That's not something that's just a saying. It happens literally in specific cult. No, no. But when I say procreation, that's the act of creating the child, and usually there aren't three or four people involved in that. It's usually two people. Yeah, but even those people that do create the child, often times were referred to as different genders depending on the culture that it is that you're observing. Which cultures are, which cultures are you referring to? Uh, we could talk about the Mayans. We could talk about certain Amazonian cultures. I recognize that they're not Western culture, so you might not prioritize them, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Well, they no longer exist. The May. Oh, right. Because of colonialism. I'm glad that you're just. What was their view of gender? What specifically? You, that's specifically a social characteristic that we're all performing in right now. I mean, you can't say. I'm, I'm, I'm not asking your opinion. I'm asking what you brought up the May. What, what did the Mayans think about marriage and gender? What, what do you? We can talk about difference in, in the way that they are recognized. Can we? I don't know that you know the difference. You said there was a difference, but you haven't explained how there was a difference. And I think this is what people do. Is this prompt specifically on the Mayan anthropology? Okay, I'm trying to drill down. Just to when you say there are different understandings of marriage throughout history in time and space, I say, okay, maybe that's possible. How? Tell me. Point to the examples. And you said, well, the Mayans. And I said, okay, well, what did the Mayans think about marriage? And you don't have an answer. And none of these people have answers because everyone has. Do you have an answer? People can look up right now if you're right near a Google. Yeah, exactly. Michael's trying to hone me down on trivia night right now. We're trying to talk about specifically our examples. I'm asking you. I'm asking you to explain the point that you brought up. And so what people usually do is they say, well, look, I'm sure that there were all different types of marriage throughout history all over the world. And what I'm telling you is there actually hasn't been. So you're telling me that a Catholic priest, or the people who created like a, a certain ceremony within the Mayan culture, is that what you're telling me? I'm not telling you that. I'm telling you that for. I'm telling. If you want to listen, I'm happy to tell you exactly. I'm listening. Ears are open, Michael. Okay. I'm sorry, Mindy. For all of, for all of history, for all of history, everywhere in the world, until roughly 2001 in the Netherlands, every single culture, every polity has believed that marriage is the union of a man and a woman, ordered toward the procreation of children. That's what it is always been. You're saying that's the specific objective of what marriage is? For thousands of years, marriage has been used for property transfer. That's what marriage. Marriage is also, it's also used for the mutual support of the spouses, but it is in principle ordered toward the procreation of children. That's what distinguishes it from other kinds of relationships.

Would you say that there's an aspect where love is important, specifically within this current culture? Would you say that you love your wife? I do. But now, okay, well, that always hasn't been the case. Specifically when it comes to things like, people today who don't love their wives. That's absolutely true. I suppose the difference is, as I just mentioned, that love has not always been something that's recognized. Even in some couples now, we love people in relationships that aren't marital, and in relationships that are not marital, we sometimes don't love our spouses. We sometimes don't love people who are not our sp. I think the point of what this conversation is, we're seeing different motivations in which people actually get married. To be specifically for the procreation, it doesn't have to be specifically for property transfer, and in some instances, it can just be the union of people who care about each other. The fixation and the obsession of same-sex couples, care about just what's so weird. Specifically when conservatives claim to be big, strong men, you know, cigar salesmen that are out there presenting this certain image. It's weird how you're focusing more on gay people than often times gay people focus on gay people. I'm not focusing on anything. I'm not the one who changed the definition of marriage here, making the claim, hey, all of these marriages that I'm seeing are not legitimate. Say my feelings. No, no, no, because that's just not what marriage is. Like, if, if you told me that there was such a thing as a square ball. Yeah, the ball that we're referring to is a yellow ball and a green ball. It doesn't mean that the ball is square. And now, where I think we're confusing our analogies, the reason one can't have a square ball is not because one has an animus against square balls. It's because it's in the nature of spheres and squares that one cannot simultaneously be both. The fear isn't seeing a gay and saying, oh, boo, oh, my God, I got scared. The fear is, oh, my God, my rights are being taken away, or the institution of marriage is degraded, specifically because we're expanding it to people who also love each other. It's, it's because even in principle, two fellas can't make a baby. That's the difference there. As we mentioned, there are people that are infertile that you wouldn't say their marriage is any less legitimate. Specifically, they, in principle, their marriage is inclined toward the procreation of children. That's not true because we just talked about there were certain instances where marriage is used as a property transfer. It's not for procreation. But again, you, any of his marriages were illegitimate? He, I, I would, because I'm a Catholic, but that's a separate issue. Go. This is the issue. When I love my buddy, right? I love my anchor, Trudy. I love my cousins, but I'm not married to them. I have lived with roommates. I wasn't married to them. Uh, many people have slept with people who are not their spouses. That doesn't mean they're married to them. Marriage has to have a definition that is different from all of these other kinds of relationships. And the only one that anyone throughout all of history until roughly 2001 in the Netherlands has ever come up with is that it's a union of a man and a woman inclined toward the procreation of children. And also, it so happens that children are raised in a much better way from a man and a woman. Specific motivation that you continue to reiterate and parrot, that is just not true. If you look at various examples. Good to meet you, Mindy. Good to, good to meet you. What was his name? I caught you. That was easy. You got it. How's it going? Good. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Okay, so I am not in this politics world, to be honest. All I know about you is your name is Michael and don't marry your cousins. I don't, I avoid that. So I was taking some notes here on my handy-dandy notebook. Okay. Um, you're making a lot of appeals to things, you know, appeal to nature, appeal to the dictionary, appeal to the past, philosophy, yeah, anthropology. I feel like what you're ultimately appealing to is Michael's idea of marriage, and that's fine, right? But we, I'm, I'm appealing to everyone else's idea of marriage for all of history. Well, so here's the thing, haven't there before. I don't get sidetracked here, but briefly to respond to that, weren't there other ideas in the past that were bad? Well, there are plenty of ideas in the past that have been bad and discarded. There are very few ideas that have existed everywhere for all of history and continue to exist today, albeit in a slightly different form, that that are bad. Right, but, but like, why, why am I supposed to care that people have believed something for a long time? Well, because, uh, often, uh, things that have endured forever everywhere do so because they work or they have some tethering to reality. But in this case, in terms of reality, I'm glad to mention the word reality because in terms of reality, I'm gay married. Woo! Right? Like, we live, we live in a, in a society where if you look at polling data, society seems to be okay with gay marriage. And so if you personally don't want to get gay married, you don't have to. But shouldn't we? I mean, I'm thinking like, what's the, what is the point of this conversation? Because, because you're, you're not really married. You, you have a relationship with a man, you're not really mar. I understand that you think that, and that's fine. But we should structure. Because what's the point of this conversation? Right? Like, I was kind of falling asleep through all like the Plato and Socrates. And I didn't bring it up. That was the other guy, wasn't it? I know. And we, we'll agree on that, okay? The agreement for the thumbnail. All right. Um, but like, the point of this conversation, I can make it very clear for you, that we're deciding how we should conduct ourselves, right? Yes. I can make it very practical for you. Children do very poorly when they are raised by two men or by two women, relative to my understanding of the literature on this. That's not true. What literature are you referring to? Unfortunately, I was not able to bring notes here. If you look it up afterward. I don't have notes either, but I'll tell you. You can, you can reach out to me after. I can email. We're getting off of my point here, and I don't like it. So I'm going to keep talking. Now you want it to be PR. You want to avoid. We're just going to talk over each other. No, understand anything. You talk so much more than me. You're the, you're the hero. Let me talk. Come on, Michael. Let me talk. So, um, if you want to avoid the point I'm making, I, which probably is good for your side of the argument. Okay. If it's good for me, I'm going to do it. So, um, we need the point of this conversation is we're deciding ultimately, like, what should our laws be, right? We, and if we live in a plutocratic society, where a lot of people have a lot. Be plutocratic? You mean pluralistic? Oh, pluralistic. Thank you. See, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a media guy. I'm just a guy. I'm just a guy. Why am I here? He's a professional. Pluralistic. Thank you, Michael. So we live in a pluralistic society, and we should have our laws allow people to live the way they want, in so far as we're not impeding on other people's liberties or harming others, right? To my understanding, that's so. What about the right of a kid to have his natural mother and father? Because when the rubber meets the road in gay marriage, it's not just two people living together. You could always do that. It's not two people doing those things. You guys do that. You could always do that. It's the ability to adopt children, and in some cases, acquire children by going to the baby store and purchasing the eggs of one woman, renting the womb of of another woman, and raising children, depriving them intentionally of their natural mothers. And that's very wrong, and that does infringe on the rights of kids. I understand that you believe that, and all the scientific literature, by the way, backs that up. Not true. It is true. Fact check that, please. Let's let them fact check that on the video. Fact check it for you right now. The study that you're referring to is the Michael Rosenfeld study out of Stanford in 2010, and it said that that kids raised in gay households did just as well in school. Other study. And that, no, it was a major study, but, but it was, it was wrong. It had a major methodological error, and it's been corrected by multiple other St. I'd love to engage with you on that in a sec. Yes, in a sec. My point is, the majority of people in society are okay with these things, and society's laws should reflect what the majority of people are okay with. The majority of people were okay with slavery for much of the 19th century. So should society's laws just reflect that? Wait, so now things that happened in the past are bad? Some things that happened in the past are bad, some are good. But some things are good, and some things that are happening now are very bad too, and contrary to reason. The problem is that slavery is bad. Gay marriage, gay adoption, things like that are not bad. They are bad. And, and, and gay marriage is non-existent. And gay adoption is bad. Then how am I gay married if it doesn't exist? You're not. I'm having an existential crisis after this. Yeah, you're not. People, you guys see me. Can you guys see me? You, you exist. But, but gay marriage does not exist. Okay. And gay adoption is very bad for the kids. I'm not, and I'm not even knocking the guys who want to do it. I understand there's a natural longing to have kids, and homosexuals in, in a same-sex union can't create kids, which is part of the reason why it's not marriage. But it's still bad for the, the kids. Okay. Well, I thank you for correcting me on the word plutocratic. I otherwise completely disagree with everything you said. All right. Well, and I think most people do too, and that's why the laws don't reflect your opinions on this. Most people around the world agree with what I said. All right, guys, that's it for this claim. Please return to your seats. Thank you. Thanks. My next claim is that transgenderism should be eradicated from public life entirely. [Applause]

Hi, Blossom. She/her/hers. Powerhouse Blossom Powerhouse. Lovely to meet you. Yes, go ahead. I want to know your ideology around transgenderism. Something that doesn't exist. It just sounds more like conservative propaganda. So I kind of want to know a little bit more about what you're trying to communicate. Okay, I think for all of history, everywhere, uh, people have understood the human person to have something to do with his body. So, like, your body has something to do with who you are. Now, there is an alternative view, which is called Gnosticism. It's a view that our bodies don't really have anything to do with who we are, that the body is maybe even evil, and that our true selves have no connection to our bodies. And I see in the transgender ideology a kind of Gnosticism that says that you could look like a man, you could have a man's genetics, you could have a man's, uh, genitals, you could have a man's everything, but if you feel on some deep level that you're really a woman, then then you are really a woman. And I don't think that's true. And, and I think that the social effects of that are really bad because it leads to the, uh, depriving women of their legitimate rights in some cases. It leads to rapes, notably in the last few years. And, uh, it also leads to women losing their sports competitions and their scholarships. And it's just disordered and false. And it also leads to more people adopting this identity, which leads to very high rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide. So it's bad for everyone, and it's not grounded in reality.

Oh, I don't even think you understand what you say sometimes. I don't think you even understand what you say because when we talk about these rape cases of women in the restroom, they're coming from cis men like you. So let's be very clear. Not true. Excuse me. Do not interrupt. A black. I'm just trying to correct. I would never interrupt a black woman. Thank you. Here's the thing about me, as a black trans woman, I am not a threat to cis women. And I think it is harmful that you are going around here spewing that rhetoric, weaponizing this rhetoric against trans people. Transgenderism does not exist. We, as trans people, exist. We are 1% of the population. And there is a lot of power in the trans identity because you are sitting here spewing something to me that doesn't really anything. I'm just stating facts. I have lived experience. You don't, and you never will. But I do have a question. Experience. What if one of your, what if one of your kids came out as trans? How would you react? God forbid. I mean, I would, I would obviously love my children, and I would try to do what's best for my children. And the best thing that I could do to be respectful and also to, uh, be conducive to their flourishing is to tell them the truth, which is that they're not really girls. Oh, come on. I can't even imagine your relationship with your children. No shade, right? I just cannot even imagine that. But here's the reality. We exist. Again, people like you do not have the intellectual capacity to hold conversations like this because in a minute, you're going to reduce this down to genitalia, and then we're going to have to shift somewhere else because obviously, like that's where they go, right? In a minute, what I'm going to do is correct something you said. When you said that the, the rapes that have occurred in these bathrooms are cis men. Like you, white cis men, I should say, actually, that isn't true. Loudoun County, 2021, the, the big case that actually ended up flipping the state was because there was a, a boy who wore a skirt, went into the girl's bathroom, and raped a girl in a particularly hideous way. And you know what happened? Hold on, don't cut me off. Cis boy. It was not a trans woman. All y'all do is go back to cis boys. You're always talking about this boy. I don't understand the fascination with trans bodies and what's happening in the bathroom. It is mostly happening, I think, because you don't want me to tell you what happened in. Who? Me? I think you're filibustering. I think that you, you're distracting from the fact that a boy wearing a skirt in a girl's bathroom. Boy, but not a trans woman. Well, there's no such thing as a trans woman. Oh, it is. You're looking at one right now. I'm looking at, looking at me. I'm looking at live experience. Live experience. You are looking at a trans woman who has been transitioning for over 20 years, who has lived the experience. You're looking, you're talking to an activist here, to a somebody that's extremely. Oh, I am real. I'm not really talking to anyone. You keep talking over in your head. I'm not, but I am in reality. I'm here in front of you right now, talking to you. You're confused about your ID. No, you are confused at the fact that you don't really have any talking points right now because I, then why aren't, then why aren't you letting me speak? You really don't. If I have nothing to say, why aren't you letting. Put me on your show. How about, how about that? Become your show. Oh, yeah, I should have a show. I should have a show. In 2018, there were two rapes in bathrooms, one in Wisconsin, one in Georgia, also because of the transgender identity. Say it. If you're, if you're going to describe a, a boy who wears a skirt and goes into a girl's bathroom as a cis man. No, I, I did. No, you are. This is the example that you run to. Past that you have nothing. I've just given you three examples in recent years. Nothing. You don't. You've been struggling this entire time. Yeah, you have. I think the trans lady doth protest too much, me thinks. Byebye. Perhaps I'll see you on my show. Yes, invite me. Get my em. Tell your, tell your people to get my email address. How about that? Good. [Music] [Applause] job. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Okay, so if we're going to think about women getting rapes in bathrooms, right? It's a small percentage of trans people that are doing it. I'm not denying that that's happening because it is a reality, and it's an awful thing for women to have to go through. Yeah, but then what are we doing about the men that are the 93% of sexual violence towards women? Well, hopefully arresting them and putting them in prison. And what are you doing before that? Why are men the highest percentage for this? If it's such a bad thing for trans women to use the bathroom, when a very, very, very small amount of women are being raped by trans women, why are we not having any sort of things before for? I think we try to enforce our laws and protect people from rape. And so we, apparently not very well. No, I think relatively well. We have a relatively low rate of these kinds of violent crimes compared to other places in the world. But, but in one area, we're talking about men forcing themselves into women's bathrooms. This is one area where, uh, we don't need to allow them to do that. It's a needless risk. It's based on a false view of reality and, and claims of rights, so-called rights from confused men that infringe on the legitimate rights of women, not just in bathrooms, but also in sports competitions, also in scholarships, also in, in just about anywhere else in society. So, I, I think that we have the right to insist upon some kind of reality because I think not only will that be better for women, not only will that be better for society broadly, but that especially will be better for the individuals who are confused about their gender identity. And how are you going to prevent trans women from using the female bathroom? How are you going to, what's the tech? Uh, there are some giveaways. Contrary to what the trans activists, men who identify as women, you, you can usually tell. And what are they? You can say, you can say, you can tell all you want. Yeah, you know, broad shoulders, Adam's apple, and, you know, like the face. And yeah, right, right. You can tell. You can usually tell. Usually, not all the time, but usually. Okay, okay. So if you can only usually tell, what are you going to do to prevent it? Well, look, look, a man who doesn't even identify as trans, a man who's just a nefarious fellow, could sneak into a woman's bathroom. So we have to. 93% because what are you doing about men? We should enforce the law against people who break it. And what are you doing before that? Like, why is it a continuous pattern for men? We teach people in, in class. You're not teaching them very well, apparently. I mean, we have Republican parties who are literally putting a president who is a felon who has sexually assaulted people. What does that say to men? Yeah, no, one really, that I, no one really buys that. No one seriously thinks that Donald Trump is a rapist. I know we pretend because the Democrats were trying to prosecute. Is such a bad thing? Why don't you believe women when they say it's happening? Because you're not believing Trump when he says that he didn't do it. You're, you know, whatever. But you're not believing the woman. The claim you're making about Trump obviously was not criminally prosecuted. It comes from about 30 years ago from a woman who previously said that she likes rape and finds it, you know, scintillating. And I know it's, it's terrible. So has, so that woman, did the Trump accuser literally say that to Anderson Cooper on CNN? But, you know, sure, I'm sure. Fetish with like consenting adults might be different. But no woman knowingly goes out into this world and says, I love to be raped. I want to be. The example you brought up, which is the, the accuser of Donald Trump, but anyway, no one really believes Trump's a rapist. And so your question is, why don't we? Okay, I guess maybe some people in this room. You ask, why don't we just believe all women all the time? Well, I, I do think we should give a lot of deference to people who are accusing others of crimes. And so, you know, we have courts of law to adjudicate these claims. So I don't know. I don't think women are incapable of lying. But I do think that we should protect their legitimate political right. Women do lie, though. It's a very, very, very small percentage. My blank period. So what again are you doing? Like, you care to claim about women so much because trans people in the bathroom is so scary? My claim, my claim here, in other, my actual claim here is that transgenderism is false, and we should eradicate it from public life because it's harmful to everyone. Okay, that's my, that's my actual. If you want to talk the. Then what does transgenderism in public look like to you? It's, uh, allowing men to be treated for the purposes of the law as women. It's men taking 900, uh, sports trophies from women in recent years. And they didn't take 900. They took 900. There's a report just came out from the United Nations, actually, 890, uh, trophies and medals across 600 women who were competing competitors across 29 different sports in 400 competitions. That came out like yesterday. And they deserved them. It didn't happen, and they deserved them. Okay, that is the logic I hear from the pro-trans crowd. Yeah, thank you. They do deserve them because I'm sure they followed the specifications for the sport, and that's why they were there in the first place. [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

Ved. Hello, hello. So I think I want to start off by asking you, what your solution is to like the word eradicating? Like, what, what do you mean by that? Well, the, the word literally means to pull up by the root. So not just to have some half measure where you say, you know, okay, we're only going to trans kids after the age of nine, but not under the age of nine. Okay, we're only going to let men who identify as women go into this bathroom, but not that sports team, or what. I don't think a half measure makes any sense. In fact, I think a lot of the conservative arguments. You're not answering my question. What's the solution? It means to uproot it. We. So how do you do that? I want to know how you're going to uproot an entire percentage of people. Oh, oh, I'm not uprooting people. I'm, I would return American public law to what it was before roughly 2015. I don't understand the perspective of how you or the conservative party is going to make any sort of progress in eradicating an entire percentage. I think it's just. We're not eradicating people. You're trying to say that because it makes us look crazy saying. No, I said I want to eradicate a whole ideology of transgenderism. Trans people. That is going to be people. That you are taking. No, like, if I want to eradicate poverty, that doesn't mean I want to kill all the poor people. I'm not saying I'm not saying that you want to kill. I, I'm asking you what your plan, like, what, in the best case scenario, how are you going to get people to stop being trans? I think we're going to tell boys that they're not girls. We're going to tell boys that they're not girls. That they're going to listen. Yeah, basically. Really? Yeah. What we've done for most of hist. Happened to me, and I can promise you to God that I didn't listen. Yeah, well, because we live at a time that is is affirming the transgender delusion. But if we lived at a more sensible time, probably you would have listened, and you might have had some. I think we should just return to a more sensible kind of politics. How, what is your? You're not giving a solution on how you would even be capable of doing. I think I am. I think we kicked the fellas out of the boys' bathroom. We kicked the transgender teaching out of schools. We, we just enforced the law as it was before 2015. There was a law prohibiting trans women to go into the women's bathroom, or trans men going into the men's bathroom. Yeah, it, it's there in the term women's bathroom, that's why men can't go. That's a law. Yes, you, you, there are all sorts of laws against public indecency, for one, against men going into women's sports leagues, or all sorts of regulations against that, or at least there were until recently. We did not have established in public life transgenderism until very, very recently. That's not true. That's not true. What about the two-spirited people? What, what is the two-spirited people in the indigenous community? They are. I'm, I don't want to get into semantics, but I'm just. I know that there had, there has always been trans people. Do you know where the phrase two-spirited came from? I don't. Enlighten me. It came from the third and ual intertribal Native American First Nations gay and lesbian Americans Conference in 1990. And the woman who coined that term. I just don't think that that's true. It's true. The woman who coined that term. Aditt. Hold, hold on. Let me just, let me just finish my point on this. The, the woman who coined that term, Maya Laramie, admitted somewhat recently that the term two-spirit came to her in a, in a dream in 1990. Now, the OG Nation actually has translated this term. It's the. How are you capable of eradicating an entire percentage of people by setting laws? Because people are. As I think you're choosing not to hear what I'm saying, because I'm saying we don't want to eradicate any people. We want to eradicate. But the other word is transgenderism, which is an ideology about a group of people. I am a transgender person. You, you can't just. You are a confused person, but you're not. I'm so secure in myself, and there's other women in this room that are also trans, have been trans for 20 plus years. Seven years, babe. That know exactly what they're doing. You're confused because it's not possible for a man to become a somebody without knowing their bodily autonomy, knowing anything that's going on with their medical history, anything. Nothing about. I know the basics of human nature. You know nothing about me. I know that you're a human, and I know a little bit about human nature, and I know that a boy can't become a girl. So that's what I know. Does anybody want to take? You're tapping out. Yeah. [Music] Okay, I feel like I did you dirty there. That was very unch. I will, I'll let you. I'll only take a sec. Okay, everyone, just vote me out in like, in like a minute or two. Okay. Um, I want to make a very quick point. Y, uh, that was about a lot of stuff. Oh my God, you'd be great at Jeopardy. All these things. Okay, so you mentioned, uh, what you would do if your kid, uh, came to you and said, you know, in a medical sense, they had gender dysphoria, right? And gender dysphoria, a specific medical diagnosis where somebody's sense of their gender is not matched to their physical gender-related characteristics and/or the way society perceives them. Y. In a world where gender-affirming care is allowed, as a parent, you still have the right to not have your kid go through that care, right? In some, in some places, you don't. Why is it that every major medical association supports access to this care? That is not true. Sweden, Finland, and the UK all just banned the cross-sex or the, the puberty blockers for children because there was the Cass review of the of the transgender studies. Welcome to my trap, Michael. Okay, I learned about the Cass review. The Cass review was done by Dr. Hilary Cass, a pediatrician, um, on behalf of the NHS. Y. They did not find any evidence of harm and they did not recommend a ban. And a ban did not happen. All they did was a on what? Puberty blockers? Puberty blockers. All they did was limit access to research settings. France did a similar national review. They found the opposite thing. So here's the problem. Watch the UK. The UK did ban it. That's something you said. No, they restricted it. Have you ever seen guns are restricted? They're not banned. There you go. That's the difference. So, um, have you ever watched a toothpaste commercial, Michael? This is my line. I prepared. I want to say, okay, you know when they say nine out of 10 dentists recommend this toothpaste? Yeah, yeah. I feel like what you guys do is you point to the 10th who's, you guys, uh, the people who are conservatives and advocate your position. You say, look at the 10th dentist, they're a dentist, and they think this toothpaste is terrible. What about the other nine dentists? Why is there a global medical consensus? There isn't a global medical consensus. Glad. Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. I bet you didn't know that acronym. Google. Glad. Medical associations. They have a page where all of this is just links to like 30-something medical associations. But you're suggesting that the review by the NHS of the puberty blockers is the dentist, and it's not. And furthermore, even the New York Times, which I don't read, I don't like the New York Times. New York Times. Okay, hold on, hold on. Let me just make this point. The New York Times came out very recently in 2022. The puberty blockers, contrary to what we've been told, are not in fact often reversible. That is one of the reasons why you're seeing major restrictions, if you like to call it that, moving toward full bans in multiple countries, is because it causes all sorts of problems for kids long term. Have you ever met a kid with asthma? Uh, yes. So a kid with asthma might be prescribed, um, I'm sorry, I'm blanking here. Is this hard? Is this hard? Yes, thank you. It's a steroid, right? Yeah. Steroids can have side effects. Doctors monitor for side effects. Yes. So puberty blockers can have side effects. Doctors monitor for side effects. The problem is that asthma responds to a real medical condition where you have trouble breathing. Gender dysphoria is in the DSM. It's V out. All right, you're out. A pleasure. Round, round two. Yes, we are. Yes. Thank you. I'm happy to continue this if you want. Yeah. All right. I added five more minutes. Oh, hi. You guys. Thank you. Wow. Hello. Hi, I'm Lex. Lex, nice to meet you. I'm Michael. I want to talk about, um, the term eradication. Um, eradicating trans identity. Sure. Um, trans people is really what you're referring to. That's not what I'm referring to. Sure. So I want to chat about where we've also seen that before. Can you guess where? I'm going to guess you're going to say something about Hitler. Do you want to know the first book burning that the Nazi party did? Uh, please. Yes. It was the library of queer and trans history. It's outrageous. I heard Martin Luther burn Thomas Aquinas's books, which bothers more. It's so funny you want to bring up Martin Luther right now, but that's a whole another conversation. My point, fascism as a whole really loves to hone in on small portions of society. Um, and right now, I'm sorry, I'm going to outright call you a fascist and say you're saying hate speech. Um, what you're calling for is an eradication of a, of an entire community of.

Human beings that deserve. Because you say that do deserve to have rights that deserve. They do. They do deserve. Oh yeah, I agree. I totally agree. As a, I think you're very disrespectful to them by lying to them. I think lying is very disrespectful. Guys, do you feel like I'm lying to you? No. Okay, okay. Just want to make sure. Um, but, but you are, you know, I guess, I guess you know what, you might not be lying in that you might be confused yourself. And lying is an intentional, is telling an intentional TR. Sure.

So I also want to talk about when we're talking about puberty blockers, um, and these long-term effects that actually haven't been studied. There are genuinely no long-term studies on puberty blockers that have been repeated enough to be accepted by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the by the American, um, sorry, Academy of, um, clinical endocrinologists, who are the clinical experts. Dat, dat, that we do have the data that we do have have persuaded even people who formerly advocated puberty blockers to to recognize that they are not totally re. But they haven't. Because I literally can, I'm sorry, we can fact-check this at home, but I counted before I came in here, 13 different governing bodies of medical professionals who all support unanimously access to puberty blockers and gender-affirming care. Right. But I, I just named you three whole nations that don't support it anymore, who previously did. Like Sweden was, was the most probably pro-trans country in the world. How many countries are there? There are, how many countries that believe in transgenderism? Not that many. Not that many that believe in transgenderism to puberty blockers. I want that's okay. All on your own. You got it. Thank you. W at all the support coming from Indie. I really appreciate it. Um, I just find it interesting how usually this is Matt Walsh from y'all's place, and it seems like you're trying to leech on it from a lot of the media tension that you got from the transgenderism should be eradicated. Do you want to talk a little bit more about why a woman should be doing that instead? Usually people don't usually confuse me for Matt Walsh. They usually confuse me for Rachel Maddow. But she didn't come here. You present very feminine, which is why I feel like it's weird that you keep calling yourself like, he or this term, Michael. I still have yet to see a birth certificate or see anything GL that you recognize that there are stereotypical behaviors of men and women, and that they maybe ought to behave in those ways. That's what a social role is. Performative characteristics. So it looks like we're agreeing. I don't, I don't, what I don't agree with, though, is that you're saying again, these specific, uh, biological essentialism, which you cannot prove right now. I wouldn't call myself, I wouldn't call myself a biological essentialist. You said things like chromosomes, genitals are the only things that can determine what people can. When, when did I say that? You, what do you mean? We can rewind the prompts. You guys can go back in the. Good luck. Good luck doing that. Uh, what have you said then? I, I agree with you that there is a social and performed aspects to gender. In fact, I agree that there is a distinction to be had between. Yeah, no. Judith Butler goes a little wrong. I guess my point is, the pro-trans people say that when you are a man, uh, your body is that of a man, but you, uh, desire to behave in a way that is not like a man, that you should do that. And then actually, you should change your body often to be more like the opposite sex. And I guess my argument is, well, that's not something that's advocated for for people who all experience gender dysphoria. There are certain instances where the medical community will say that this does qualify. You don't think that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones and surgeries are advocated for? I'm glad you know my name. Said that you did say. I am being respectful this time. That's good. Because I, I want to, you know, just respect and show that it's not something that has to be proven on a piece of paper. The way that we engage is a dialogue. So I'm just choosing to use the respectful terms that you've said, even though you still haven't proved that your name is Michael, by the way, which is a little bit weird. But, uh, we'll continue to go back to not all medical professionals will advocate for gender-affirming care for every person that's trans. Often times it's a social transition where people are just changing their name or the way that they're dressed. So let's just have some appropriate respect. Treat people like society. Ide. Let's just treat people correlated with all sorts of terrible outcomes and it's contrary to reality. So to your point, wearing certain clothes is contrary to reality. If you go to a woman, cry because they're very masculine. W. Actually, gender roles can change. They're malleable. Is that what you're saying? Say there's not something intrinsic that says I should wear this. Exactly. Fashions can change. But, but I'm willing to go further than maybe some of my friends and colleagues and conservatives, which is that I don't think that that gender is just your biology. Because I don't think a human person is just a body. I'm not a materialist. I think that we're body and soul. I think that we. Okay, so that goes back to again, you arguing from a religious perspective, which you have. American, American right to have that lack of religious perspective too. And that's, I'm trying to be, I'm a patriotic man. Michael, USA. Should we have the freedom of expression? Freedom? The First Amendment. That's what it's. There's no First Amendment right to obscenity, first of all. But second of all, it's obscene for me to wear a dress. But the, the view isn't it weird because I have XX chromosomes, Michael. Yeah. B surprise. Do you have XX chromosomes? Yeah. Would you call me she her now? I don't. I'll, I'll defer. I'll defer it to you. I, I don't remember. I don't remember your name. What is your name? What would you say my name is? I don't know. You can determine. You just said easy. It's very easy to determine. Well, I, I could say if you look more like a man or a woman. But what is your name? You look more like a man. Okay. That you certainly do. So much because I don't. I have XY chromosomes, by the way. But you, little flustering right there. Is a little bit, uh, it shows that you're like freaking out. I'm trying to figure out what OB. I don't think, I don't think I'm freaking out. I think that people are intentionally confusing people in public, which is one of the problems of transgender confus. Yeah. For a man to pretend to be a woman, that would be one example. Saying that you're a man. I'm not seeing any masculine qualities, but I'll still call you a man for the rest of. Yeah, that's, I'm glad. I'm glad you do. Because actually, uh, our identity as people doesn't depend upon some kind of performance. I don't need to wear a tank top or look like a big. There's just an performative characteristics. That is something that you just said, rewind again, like 20 seconds there. Is if, if you would listen to what I've said, there is a obviously a socially enacted aspect to sex. The pro-trans people who are operating off of a religious or rather irreligious Gnostic anthropology say that when there is a distinction between the two, one should favor the fantasy over the biological reality. And what I'm saying is, when there's a distinction between the two, which does sometimes happen, then if you're a fella, you should just act like a man. Yeah. And you acting like a man again, is going to change depending on what the cultural context it is that you're residing in. Not all that you said. You just said if I were be like, y. That's a little bit weird. But just because I have a plaid pattern on it, you're going to say it's masculine to wear it. Kills. That's something that Scots are pretty. Scots are pretty masculine. Yeah. Fashion question change. But human nature, that's something that you just can't change. Michael. But I appreciate it. I'm sorry. Mindy. Mindy. Huh? All right. You say it again. Call you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Hey, before we go any further, we want to take a moment to say thanks so much to Straight Arrow News for powering the fact checks in this video. Straight Arrow News is an app and website that is on a mission to raise the bar on journalism in a time of media bias and mistrust. Their team of journalists believe that unbiased news should be the standard and not just the exception. So they report down the middle with facts, delivering news without bias, filter, or spin. Plus, their media miss tool allows you to discover news that's being underreported or not even reported at all by different sides of mainstream media. That's why we're so happy to be partnering with Straight Arrow News. The work they're doing gives us a complete picture of the news straight from our phones and tablets with their app. Go to S.com surrounded or click the link in the description to check it out. By clicking that link, you're not just supporting this channel, you're also supporting a group of journalists that are raising the bar on news and focusing on serving you unbiased, straight facts. Thanks again to Straight Arrow News for partnering with us on this episode. Now let's get into it. My next claim is that LGBTQ+ identity is a social contagion. We lost a chair. Hi. Hi. Hello. Um, I guess I'd like to start off this conversation by pointing out some other people that share your opinion that LGBTQ+ people are a social contagion. I didn't say that. I said LGBTQ+ identity is social. Because that's a huge difference. I think it's a major difference. Yeah. Yeah. You know who else also would agree with you? I'm guessing you're going to say Hitler or something and all of his friends. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Good job. I, you know, Hitler also drank water. Okay. Do you drink water? Do you drink water? Be honest. Do you want to know how, how much water I drink? Is that really the topic of this conversation? Well, no, but it's a comparison between you and Hitler, and that's very scary. Well, we're not talking about consumption of aqua. We're talking about ideologies, right? And there has been a large uptake in people who share the opinion that certain ideologies, certain racial backgrounds are contagion, and there's a lot of danger in that. I am a nurse. My background and my education has provided me with the privilege of being exposed to people of all backgrounds, people of all belief systems. I think that if we're going to talk about social contagion, um, I think we should start off by the ones that have positive and negative impacts on society. Because I could just as much say that hatred and bigotry are social contagion, that toxic masculinity is a social contagion, that. Are you saying that I'm a sort of pinnacle of masculinity? No, I wouldn't say that. All right, then I'm not toxic. Um, perfect. Yeah. Okay. Um, I could also say, um, a myriad of other things. When you say that LGBTQ+ identities are a social contagion, would you then venture to also say that you would like to see people like me and the rest of the people in this room eradicated? Uh, no, that would be quite a leap. Uh, I'm just a leap. I think so. I'm observing a pretty basic social phenomenon, which is that in the '90s, about 1 to 3% of Americans identified as LGBTQ+, and then in 2012, about 3.5% identified as LGBTQ+. Fast forward to 2020, it was about 5.5%. Fast forward to 2024, so really, really close, it was 7.2%. And now there's a number from NBC News that says that 30% of Gen Z identifies as LGBTQ+. So I guess my observation is just, either there's something in the water turning the frogs gay, or there's something. Yes, which actually oddly enough was a study that kind of proved that. But it's a topic. Lu, they got rid of the DEI program at the EPA that was turning the frogs gay. That's good. That's good. The EPA also discovered that we're getting sidetracked. Either there's something in the water turning the frogs gay, or there's something social and cultural going on that would lead to that huge increase in the number of people. There was a study just came out of the University of York yesterday that showed a 50-fold increase in, uh, children who think they're the wrong gender over the last 10 years. How do you explain that if it's not a social phenomenon? I would love to speak to that actually, because one of the jobs I've worked as a nurse is, um, as a nurse at a summer camp for trans teens. I've worked with hundreds of trans teens. I think that when we're talking about how people identify, how comfortable they are to identify the way that they identify, and their ability to assert themselves in that identity, the social environment that surrounds them can either hinder that or allow them to embrace themselves. So are you saying I'm trying to, can I finish my point, please? Like, you, thank you. Um, when we are talking about people's ability to assert themselves and their identity, if they are growing up in a society that tells them that they don't exist, that their marriages don't exist, um, that they're a social contagion, do you think that psychologically that person would feel empowered to? They're not a social contagion. The, the fact of identifying as LGBTQ+ is a social contagion. Um, you can go back to semantics all you want. Semantics means meaning. So if we want to understand what we mean, we actually do have to delve into semantics. I'm going to go back to my point. Let's try. Um, if someone is surrounded by people like you who are saying that their identity is invalid, that their existence isn't valid, that their marriages are not Val. Existence isn't valid. Who would say that? Do you think that that allows them to be in an environment where they feel empowered to do so? They feel empowered to be themselves, to admit to society around them, this is who I am. Yeah, but that isn't who they are. If a little boy says he's a little girl, he isn't really a little girl. He's a little boy. And I think it's actually very harmful to tell a little boy who thinks that he's a little girl that he's really a little girl. And well, my evidence for this would be that transgender identity, which has skyrocketed, especially among young people, is tied to vastly higher rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide. The transgender suicide rate, as I suspect you know, is between 32 and 50%. You are flipping a coin. If you tell someone to embrace his transgender identity, you're basically flipping a coin with his life. And so I think that's very harmful to that person, and it's not founded on human nature. Sorry. I would shake your hand, but I don't really want to. You don't want to. All right, that's okay. It's close. Next time. Hello. How you doing? Good. I'm Jeremiah. Jeremiah. Michael, nice to meet you. Okay, so I just wanted to kind of define terms a little bit. But you mentioned social contagion. Contagion, how, uh, meaning, uh, well, going back, there's a good study by Dr. Lisa Littman that showed this was back in 2018, that, uh, peer influence is one of the great drivers of transgender identity. So that's how it's a social contagion. People look around at their peers and they see them identifying as LGBTQ+, and that makes them much more likely to identify that way themselves. Okay, so by that definition, because I'm thinking contagion makes it sound like it's a disease, right? Yeah, it's not a disease. It's not good. It, it leads to lots of bad health outcomes. Go. So you're saying bad. And I think you mentioned earlier, you said, oh, kids are more likely to attempt suicide if they come out as trans, right? Anyone, not just kids. Anyone who identifies as transgender is significantly more likely to be orders of magnitude more. Let me focus on where I, my expertise is. I'm a therapist. And the thing is, when kids and adults get mental health care, they're less likely to attempt suicide. Furthermore, if kids have to hide their identity because of people that are ultra-conservative and try and, um, repress someone's sexuality and or identity, those kids and adults are more likely to attempt suicide. That is not backed up by the scientific literature. I'm, what scientific literature are you talking about? There is lots of scientific literature. Answer that question. Do you want me to answer your question? Well, you asked me what scientific literature I'm talking about. I'm happy to answer that question, but maybe you don't want me to. Well, it's not, it's not because that only, it's because you are going to pick stats that support your point of view. We all know that data can be. What if I pick, what if I pick the largest data set on transgender outcomes ever compiled? No. Would that be helpful? I want to hear more about how you are actually thinking about this. Well, I'm thinking about this based on the science that you won't let me talk about because you know it undercuts your argument. No, I think that what, what I'm getting at is that you're thinking about how you view personally because of your transphobic and homophobic views yourself. Hold on. Where, where did that come from? I'm just trying to tell what the science says, and you're trying to just call me transphobic and homophobic. I don't know. I'm happy to give you. I'm happy to give you an answer. You are though. I don't have an irrational fear of, of an imaginary identity. It's so, it's okay. I have a rational fear of it becoming a, you know, social problem. But hello. Hello. How are you? I'm good. I think I just, cuz initially the prompt was about LGBTQIA identity, and we're really hyper-focusing on that trans identity. We can do any identity. Absolutely. So I kind of just want to speak from my own anecdotal experience. I'm not here to debate, change anybody's mind. What I can tell you is that pre-transition, all the mental health issues I had, all of that was starting before I transitioned. Since I transitioned, started my hormones, have done all the right things, gotten my gender-affirming care, all of these issues, problems I've had have alleviated. How long ago did you do it? Um, about a year ago. Yeah. That is also backed up in the scientific literature that there can be short-term, uh, improvements to mental health or even a short-term euphoria. But, but the long-term, there, it, I mean, people are laughing at this. Well, because it's ridiculous. Well, okay, so in 2019, the, uh, American Journal of Psychiatry published the, uh, a study giving, giving the largest data set on, uh, transgender experience. Doesn't matter at all. It does. But it doesn't matter as much as data, because data is just a lot of anecdotes, you know, many, many. So it, it looked at much longer-term, uh, analysis and and what it, it tried to argue was that the transgender hormones and and surgical treatments, uh, did improve outcomes on anxiety and suicide and depression, but they had to issue a correction very quickly because there was a methodological error. And when they, when they admitted this, I'm not interested in talking about policy. I'm really talking about. But I'm talking about science, not policy. I understand what you're saying, but I'm sitting here in front of you as a trans woman who is telling you that every issue I've had before, mental health problem before I started my hormones, is gone. And I'm telling you statistically, it's going to come back. It's, you're wrong. Like, you can't predict the future. Like, I don't, I'm not predicting the future, and maybe you'll be one of the lucky few. I guess my point is this, uh, if you look at the, not just one anecdote, but but and actually your anecdote actually fits into the scientific liter. It doesn't. It, it does, because doesn't. I've been a trans person since I was a child. I've experienced the gender dysphoria my entire life. And the second I got on my hormones, everything started improving. Doing it a year ago. A year ago. I've also been socially out as a gender-ambiguous person since I was 22. Sure. You don't know anything about my medical history. I'm not, I'm not claiming to know anything about your medical. You're trying to claim that you know about my medical history. You're also trying to say that in the future, I'm not going to be okay. No, no, I'm not saying that either. I'm saying I'm saying statistically, you probably won't. I'm saying I'm saying that the largest data. Trans. Do you know I'd love to know? Apparently not enough. Clearly, clearly not enough. What I'm telling you, and I know you're talking over me because you don't want to hear this, but what I'm telling you is the largest data set, the largest study ever conducted to follow the long-term outcomes of transgender identifying people found that not only did did their suicide rates and depression not improve, their anxiety actually went up. And so what I'm telling you is, if you're feeling a kind of euphoria that pretending that you were the opposite sex has made you feel better, pretend. I'm the opposite sex. Yes, you are pretending. And I don't think that it's respectful to lie. People pretty good. Don't you guys think? Yeah. You're not pretending. I think, I think everybody else here. I think you might be really angry with me for telling you the truth. I feel like I'm remaining quite. You're, you're remaining relatively calm, but I think you're, I think you're angry. I think you're probably not thrilled that I'm telling you that you're not really. I don't care. Do you not? You're, you're sitting here talking to me. It seems like you care a lot. I'm here to give context to a conversation that you clearly know nothing about. You don't know any trans. Do you know personally any trans people? You never really. I know a number of people who identify as trans. And so they're not, you know, some who have gone back the other way because it, it was ruining their lives. Love to hear. Yeah, you'd love to hear about people who regret it. They are. Oh, I don't know. It was just with a couple of them the other night. Political party. Well, Chloe Cole would be probably the most famous example. Have you? I don't know if you've seen her work. She's doing much better now. I've interviewed a number of people who have detransitioned on this show. All, all the only reason I'm, I'm, I'm mentioning the detransitioners is, you, you might think that it's really nice to affirm you in your delusion that you're the opposite. It's not nice. It's, it's, I have to do it. If I didn't start my gender hormone therapy, anything like that, I wouldn't be here right now having this conversation with you because of gender dysphoria. I, because, because what you would have, I, I just think that there are a lot of avenues that could have happened if I didn't. My hor. I don't like. I, I just don't think that the broadness that you're bringing to the table right now is. I'm bringing. I'm bringing scientific specificity and logical precision. Told you've met a detransition person. But I'm asking if you know a transgender woman. I know people who identify as transgender. And how are they doing? Not well, really. Yeah. And statistically, it's a good line. There was off camera, they said PR because they know me. Uh, statistically, 32 to 50% of people who identify as trans will kill themselves. And that's really bad. And I think that if there's anything we can do to improve that number. Know about, like their access that they have to hormone therapy? Do we know about any access to medical care? It, it doesn't improve. That's what I was trying to tell you about the waiting. The suicide rates don't improve after they access all of that supposed. Where did you get that from? I'm very interested. From the American Journal of.

[Music] [Applause] [Music] Psychiatry. Finally. Hi, Michael. Hello. How are you? Gilbert, nice to meet you. I do watch you a lot, actually. Thank you. Thank you for watching me. You have great taste in podcasts. Thank you. I appreciate that. So, LGBTQ+ identity being a social contagion. Your statement was not that it can be, you said that it is. Yes. Right? I might be willing to agree with you that it can be, right? Because socially, sometimes people are like, well, I feel more at home in this community. Whatever. Is it your belief that it's that every person who is gay or lesbian or bisexual? Trans? Actually, let's just go to the gay, because I'm gay, so I'll talk about that. I just outed myself. I think everybody knew that. Um, obvious. But, um, do you believe, this is controversial, but that's why we're here. Do you believe that I'm choosing to be gay? Oh, I, well, so you make a good point, because obviously it couldn't be a social contagion all the way down, because at some point, you know, there's got to be the first gay guy. I don't, I don't know the story of the first gay guy. But, no, I, I think it's entirely possible that there could be either some environmental factor that inclines one to to be, uh, to have same-sex attraction, or even potentially a genetic factor, though they've never discovered the so-called gay gene. But that is different from LGBTQ+ identity. And it can be in a few different ways. One, uh, one could either, if one has these same-sex attractions, could still like marry a woman, or could be celibate, or could just not, you know. Or do you think that's ethical for a gay man to marry a woman? To take that spot in her life that could be going to a straight man? That's not loving. Well, you know, as a Christian, sorry, I'm a Christian. You should maybe be honest. I wouldn't lie to your wife or anything. No, I'm gay. We're never going to be into this. I'm never going to be into this. I'm gonna hold my breath and all that. But let's do that so that I can get. You're okay with that? Maybe you should not get married. I'm not, I'm not encouraging that. You, I don't think that's a loving thing to do. Michael. Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not saying that anyone has to do that. But that's one thing that one could do. Or one could just do what that. Or you think it's an option? I mean, it happens plenty of guys I know, of course, especially in the church, a lot of closeted gay men are marrying women. I think we know that, right? Do you think that that's the correct thing to do though? Is that ethical to do to that woman? To take that away from her? Well, I don't know. I mean, if you're going to fulfill the responsibilities of a husband and responsibilities, I don't know, you know, like provide, keep a roof over their heads, have children. Children part. Don't be your father. Well, you said, well, you, the provision. Okay, I can do that. But you said have children. How can I have a child with her? Well, you would. Do you want me to spell it out? I don't. As a gay man, how can I have a child with her? Well, you know, if, listen, I've got, I lived in New York, I lived in LA, I went to the gayest university in the world. I know a disproportionate number of guys who are a little light in the loafers. Some of them probably could marry a woman, maybe some of them could not. So they don't have to. So, so ex. It's external for you then? As long as it appears to be a certain way, it doesn't matter what's going on in the inside? Is that what you're telling me? No, you're asking me how can a, how can a man and a woman make a baby even if the guy's not that into it. I said, I don't know. Your mayed a marriage. That's what I'm trying to. I'm trying to get to the, the heart of the issue, quite literally, the heart of a gay person to to be ethical and to, to live their life ethic. I don't think your sexual attractions constitute the entirety of your being. Oh, I agree with that. But in this, I don't think that's the heart of a person. I think it's part of my identity. An aspect of your prompt is about identity, right? Yeah. I guess I would go even further. I, I know guys who are, you know, they didn't marry women and they, you know, hang out just themselves and everything. But they wouldn't call themselves LGBT activists. They don't wave the rainbow flag. They don't, they don't, they think that movement really doesn't speak for them. I agree. I understand. So I think that would be a, a distinction, you know, in, in that kind of social contagion. Okay, so we have some middle ground then. So there somebody can be gay, but not make it this, this activism part. Yeah, that the identity is actually different from. As a point that I, you've explained very well that others were missing. I think, uh, it can be an aspect of your desire or whatever. It doesn't have to be your identity, which that has clearly become a social contagion, the, the entire, the totality of your identity. But it is part of your identity, Michael. My being gay will never change. So it is part of who I am. Yeah, maybe. I mean, you don't, doesn't need. You don't need to like shack up with a man. I, I'm not saying you can think that I should be celibate. Well, I'm Catholic, so I, I would recommend chastity and all, all the rest, but, you know, that's, uh, that's up for you to decide. I'm not saying you have to do that. You, for all of human history, you know, fellas have, uh, you know, done odd things together. Okay. It was a pleasure. Such a pleasure. Pleasure all mine. Thank you. Frank Rodriguez. Frank, pleasure to meet you. I like that flag pin. Thank you. I'm actually a big fan of yours. I subscribe. I've worked with our government from Hawaii to Florida, passing conservative legislation. Love it. And, um, I just have a question for you. Do you think that the way that you're presenting the information here today is counterintuitive to the people in this room to get them to vote in a certain way that helps our party? Am I winning votes for the Republicans right now? Don't. I'm with how you do your content and how you project your advocacy. I think I'm fairly persuasive. But, but my goal right now is not votes for the. I'm try, I'm try. Question. You've already lied, you know that. You're not because you've been in here triggering people based on the terminology that you use. I used to be like you when I was a first. Tell the truth. I used to tell people things just to trigger them. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying that is a totally false accusation. You accusing me of using ACC Prova language? No, I'm, I might be. So why did you use the word contagion? Why LGBT? Because it's, is LGBT. I want to know specifically why you chose the word contagion. I said social contagion because it's contagious. That's why. Does the word contagious have a positive or negative connotation to it? It's a negative connotation. Thank you. So you chose negative verbage. Yes. I think the LGB, I think the spread of LGT, this is what really bothers me. I don't agree with a lot of the people that sit in this circle. I agree a lot with you, but it's people like you that I have to defend when I stare at these people in their face, trying to convince them to vote for our party. It's about meeting people where they're at. That's why I don't think that you do this to actually change these people's minds. I think you do this to sit in that seat for clicks and views. Why do you do? Why do you choose language? I'm happy to answer. Well, I'm using precise language because I want to get to the heart of the matter and not be wishy-washy and mealy-mouthed and not understand each other. When you choose to stare at these people, tell and try to convince them that you're right, you choose vitriol language. Vitriolic. I said, you're not an idiot, Michael. You're pretty smart. I've watched you for a long time. You used the word contagion in your statement to provide a negative outcome to. What word would you prefer to make my point? That's a good question. That's a very good question. I wish you had an answer. That is a very good question. I would say that LGBT is something that can be taught. That's what I would. LGBT? Well, LGBT can be taught, but I'm saying the spread of the identity is not merely taught with formal pedagogy, but it spreads through my misus. Would you prefer that I use that language? I don't think that's going to resonate with anybody. What I would say is I have to meet them where they're at, and I don't think you choose to do that. I think you choose for this clickbait because at the end of the day, I have to stare. These are the people I advocate here in Los Angeles because I have to defend actions like yours. What actions are you so upset about? That I, I'm upset. I'm very passionate. Don't mistake my passion for upset. Yeah, that's. Thank you. All right. A pleasure. Yes. Thank you. I have one on me. Actually, my next claim is that Pride parades should be banned. I'm so fast. You guys. That was fast. Hi. Hello. Um, nice to meet you. Ryan. You as well. So, um, go on. I think they ought to be banned. Go on. That's my claim. Well, because they're disgusting, and I don't think that my, uh, grandmother or my kids or even myself should be forced to see these obscene displays in public. Fasc. When were you forced last to go to a Pride parade? Well, I, if I'm to walk down Main Street, you know, in, in many cities in this country, I would be forced for much of the month of June. Uh, it seems to have metastasized. So it's not just a day, it's a week, it's a month, it's two months. I would be forced to see these kinds of displays unless I wanted to remain a shut-in and see the public. Are there any other things that happen in public that you find, uh, objectionable that you don't want have to be exposed to? Yeah, like what? Uh, women driving too slowly in front of me. That bothers me, but I'm not going to take away women's driver's licenses. But I would say, like, the 2024 Pride Parade in San Francisco, when two grown men were urinating on each other in a kitty pool in front of kids, I think that should be banned. I don't think that's unreasonable. Well, look, um, there's, I, I want to make a distinction here between, um, there way that, by the way, that is the thing you have to. They do say it's wholesome. Do say it's wholesome. I got, I got to give you this, though. You are so good at redirecting 3% in the middle of someone else's good point, and I would love. I'm, I'm waiting for some good points. Please enlighten me. I got you. So, um, the concept of Pride is a lot larger than, uh, extreme things you might see on the outlier, uh, of the scale of things that happen on Pride. Now, I, I will grant you that there have been things that happen at Pride, like many other kinds of festivals, that maybe you don't want your kids exposed to, which is why you don't take your kids to them. But they're often marketed as family-friendly. Like the. Let me, let me finish. Um, Pride as a whole is about a community of people who have been denied, like you're real good at, uh, existence of for most of time. Denied existence. What does that? Yes. Yeah. You, okay, fine. Public existence. We've been denied the access to being ourselves in public. So, so, which is an essential thing. So, so, so Pride celebrations are essentially an act of resistance to that and an opportunity for us to come together and be seen, which many of us don't feel safe doing alone. Now, on the corners of things like Pride, sometimes something happens that I don't want to see. Sometimes on the main stage. You sure. Listen, I'm not saying objectionable things never happen. Yeah, but you make. They often happen. Actually, no. Well, how many? You don't spend a lot of time at Prides, do you? I don't, but I read the news and I see the main streets of cities. All right, let me, let me, let me, let me just, let me, let me just be clear. As somebody who has been to many, that I, what you're describing is statistically insignificant. It is significant to the people who have to see. You're describing it. The occurrences are statistically insignificant. So you're taking this thing that happens like 0.2% of the time and apply a little bit more. I know you think that, but you're wrong. I'm just telling you, you're wrong. What's your evidence that I'm wrong? Cuz I can cite to you all the examples. Sure. And I can cite you a bajillion examples of inconsequential Pride parades. It's that goes both ways. Of in inconsequential. Didn't it happen? It went. Nothing crazy happened. I mean, just within the last two years, I mentioned the San Francisco thing, which you'll say, well, that's something else. Okay, well, New York City, when the naked guys are riding on the bikes, Minneapolis Pride, you had a guy twerking in his underwear in front of kids. Governor Tim Walz showed up to that parade. Yeah. Happily. I'm not a Minnesota citizen. Uh, if, if you look at even in West Hollywood, not too far from where we are now, at a supposedly family-friendly Pride event, there was a man almost naked who was being choked and whipped by a guy wearing leather, almost like he was a member of the Biden administration. It was totally obscene. Inap. I, I hear your point. Um, I know, I know you could go on. Um, and here's the thing that I find really interesting about this. Um, you are, you have great anecdotes. Anecdotes are not data. Well, you don't have data either. Well, difference between us is I'm not trying to pretend I have specific data. I don't. I'm telling you, if you take the lived experiences of these 20-some people who are all telling you, which are anecdotes, yes, more than yours. But here's, but are they more anecdotal than mine? They were just an. By volume. By volume. But here's the thing, we need to get more conservatives into this room. I agreed to come into a room surrounded by 20 libs. Here you are, right? Um, you have a point that things happen that you don't like to see. Sure. Sure. But you are not speaking as, uh, in reference to the majority of what Pride is now. We can disagree about that. I'm right. But if, if your contention is, well, I disagree, most of it's obscene, there's nothing to talk about. You're just wrong. So, so would you, would you agree with me? Oh, you're out. All right. You got it. All right. I feel as though a lot of your claims today have been backed by this energy that you just want to erase LGBTQIA+ people and our history. Where do you get that from? From your perspective on a lot of the trans, because I'll tell you what, all, all I've been doing, I've just been coming here and citing historical examples and citing a lot of scientific studies and telling you explicitly that I'm talking about an ideology that I think is not conducive to the flourishing of anyone, and for the good of everyone, including you guys. I, I would like to see a restoration of sensibility. And every time I say something like that, you say, man, I just kind of The vibes that you hate us and want to erase us all. And I don't know where you're getting that from. Let's, let's, let's join your side and let's say, you know what, let, let's, let's say everyone should follow your lead. And let's say as a society, we should ban Pride. And let's say as a society, we should eradicate trans people. In our transgender, again, your point, transgenderism encapsulates everything LGBTQIA+. Just in that isn't true. It's just an idea that a boy can become a girl, which isn't true. And I think we should forget about that so that people, including the ones who think that they're the opposite sex, can flourish again. So you would agree with me when I say by eradicating transgenderism, you would also eradicate the history of trans people, just in general? Well, you caning the fact we're here in this room today because of black trans women. And because of. I am not in this room because of black trans women. I can promise. Are you in this room then? Because I was invited on this podcast to what exactly? The hate speech, the rhetoric that you spread on your little YouTube channel? No, just, uh, to advocate truth and sensibility. Truth and sensibility. The truth of a matter is, you're surrounded by 25 really proud LGBTQIA+ people who do not give a about you. You obviously do. You're here talking to me. What are you talking about? You obviously care. What? Because you give us. I just want to be on YouTube. Michael. Say, yeah, some just want to be on YouTube. No, I'll tell you what. Look, we, and it's harmful when, when, when in history, but also today, this month alone, our entire government is run by straight white men who are hurting these communities. And I know you live on a pedestal and you were able to put on your little suit today, spr on your little cologne. I didn't put on any cologne. That's just my musk. That's my natural musk. Wait, hold on. Correction. You should have put on. Oh, wow. Real nice. Exactly. But now let's imagine a world where you had to put on a dress and you had to put on heels. I'd prefer not to. Yeah, I don't think I would do that. So what do you do about the people society who have to put on their suit to live and who have to have a wife to live? Because I don't understand what you're asking. People should, no matter what they feel deep inside, according to your views, people. I don't think anyone should be forced to be married. Or you're telling me you just spent your entire last three hours talking about how my people, men should not be dressed in gowns, dresses, dressed. Fine. You're wearing a big t-shirt. I like Crux. I would, I would discourage you. Thong that I'm wearing underneath. I would, I would suggest you not do that. But I don't really care that much. So let's just go back to the point at hand. Yeah. Is what is the point? Your claim, your claim, your idiotic claim that we should just stop LGBTQ+ Pride. No, I guess. All right, pause. You're out. You're out, pal. See you. Sorry, guys. Hello. Hi. How's it going? Doing very well. All right, great to speak to you. Pleasures all mine. All right, so, uh, Pride parades should be banned. That's your claim. Correct. Yes. Okay. Um, I can meet some middle ground with you. Sorry, guys. Uh, I think Pride has kind of became a bad representation of what our community is. Yeah, I agree. Um, it's not all just like sex toys and leather, right? Unfortunately, which is why I think, uh, you know, most conservatives kind of are completely on the other side. It's like pendulum, pendulum swing. Is that okay? So like, one side of the, the coin is pretty much that, you know, gays, gay, or I'm sorry, LGBT, we have fought so hard for our rights. You know, we kind of leaned so far one way, whereas like now, you know, we've kind of accepted too much, right? As far as like, we're so open-minded that, um, our brains fell out, you could say that, um, in some aspect. However, um, it doesn't take away the fact that, you know, there's still gay people that exist. Um, I don't think Pride parades should be banned, however, I think we should portray a different, uh, a different image of it. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're quite right. You know, for all of history and everywhere in the world, there have been people who are a little, little odd, you know, or they have desires that are not the mainstream. And so I get it. I'm not saying we need to like totally deny that or, you know, toss people out of society or anything. It's just, I said we should eradicate the transgender ideology. Yeah, which is a false account of human nature. But yeah, I, I think you can, if you can separate the war on poverty from, you know, a war on poor people, I think you, you probably could. Well, you, you had the most sensible take of anyone. I really. Yeah. Pleasure to speak to you. Yeah. All right. It wasn't even close. Pleasure to meet you. Hi, Shelby. Okay.

So is your main issue with the pride parades the nudity and obscenity? The obscenity is, is a big issue with it. I also don't think that as a society we ought to be celebrating the deadliest of the seven deadly sins, namely Pride. Not even the sex stuff, but just Pride. I just think that's kind of weird, you know? Because we have, every time we, we in in America, we used to have, uh, celebrations of like Christmas or Easter or even Thanksgiving. And now those have been pushed out of the public square, and we've been told that we're a secular country and we're not.

No, there have been many, many lawsuits in recent decades. And, uh, so we've been told that we're not permitted to have these kinds of big displays. But what has replaced that? The traditional liturgical calendar is this kind of secular liturgical calendar where now we celebrate the great feast of Pride. And I just don't think one needs to feel pride in one's sexual behaviors.

Okay, but it's not just about sexual behavior. It's about love. It's about, I mean, I would say it's mainly about love. I don't go around talking about my sexuality in a form where I'm like, "Oh, I have sex with women." I say that I love women. But you, you love your family, you love your neighbors, you love your friends. You don't have big parades for them. You have, you're specifically talking about love in a romantic and, dare I suggest, sexual context.

Okay, so you think that they should be shut down just because you think that they are disgusting? Well, I think they're legally obscene. So I think there's actually a legal predicate to shut them down. But I also think broadly, they're just sort of disreputable and odd. And I don't think that that's the sort of thing we should celebrate on Main Street. Maybe on some sort of side street if you want to have a party.

But, but I have a right to Main Street, you know, 'cause I'm a citizen. I mean, yeah, but you, you don't have my grandma has a right to go to the grocery store and walk down the street. Not, yeah, she has the right. She has the right to go to the one that she likes downtown, you know. Has her right to protest. Yeah, oddly enough. I mean, I would, I would actually, someone just suggested the KKK has a right to protest. I would be more willing to circumscribe the supposed free speech rights of people. But, uh, in that case, you know, courts have found that they have some right. But there's no right for, you know, leather daddies to smack each other in a kiddie pool or something.

But that's not everything that happens at Pride. But it happens so consistently. But I'm citing examples from San Francisco, New York, Oslo, Toronto, Minneapolis, West Hollywood. At what point do we see a pattern here? There can be a pattern, but it doesn't mean that that's all that happens at these parades. Well, I'm sure people make, you know, ham sandwiches too, but that's not the part that anyone has a problem with. It's, it's the sexual displays. Nobody said they can't people for doing something lewd. And still have a parade. And you've also said that you, correct me if I'm wrong, people often aren't cited for lewdness. But me if I'm wrong, but somebody else came up here and you said that you don't think that the obscenity and the pride can be separated.

You don't think that that's something that people can do? In principle, they could be separated. But even then, it would raise the question, why are we celebrating one particular or several particular kinds of sexual arrangements? Why are we celebrating sexual arrangements at all? Because we're celebrating love. That's the thing. You're, you take, should we, should we have a parade for the love I have for my Aunt Gertrude? You want your aunt? If, yeah, sure, we should. If you would feel, I don't know. I don't think, I don't think that deserves a parade down Main Street.

Okay, I, I think actually, just if you're having a loving relationship or even a relationship you perceive as loving, you can just sort of enjoy that. And it doesn't need to become a big display down Main Street. Okay, good job. Thank you. Thank you.

[Music]

Pleasure. All alone. All alone. We're back. All right, so let's dive into details. Pride parades should be banned. Yeah. What specifically would the conditions of pride parades be for legal consequences? Well, probably the Miller test, which is the current, uh, obscenity, um, measure in the courts. I think there were better, more robust ones in years past. But that's way primarily appealing to the prurient interests of the condition. So there are three conditions. The old one was just prurient interest. So the first is, uh, by contemporary community standards, appealing to the prurient interest. I think the displays I've just, because most people are fine with it, right? So I don't think so. In fact, I think the, the one that you went to would be allowed. No, I think the uniform election of the Republicans in this past election, running on LGBT issues and DEI in particular, actually shows you that most Americans are not so down with this. Somebody has a. Those aren't the only two criteria. The other one would be, uh, depicting sex in an offensive manner. I think obviously the pride parades hit that one. And then the third one is that it has to lack serious literary, artistic, scientific. It's a great form of art. Put a lot of time in there. I know you've been watching RuPaul. Who could turn it off? But I think, you know, it's on that third one that you have the closest argument to a legal protection for the pride parade. You say it's political. If we already have the Miller test, what new thing would you pass? Oh, I would just enforce the law. You just enforce the law. So if a bunch of us get together, we have rainbow flags, we have drag, we have a float, you're approving that permit as a city planner? No, I'm saying I would enforce obscenity law against that. But appealing primarily to the prurient interest. If we have a pride float, no nudity, no leather daddies that you're so into? That's the. The Miller test isn't just about appealing to the prurient interest though. It's a necessary condition, right? It's a necessary condition along with. So then if it's necessary, then let's talk about it. Yeah, well, okay, sure. Well, yeah, I think the pride parades, again, they don't appeal to my prurient interest, but they do appeal, I suspect, to the prurient interest of the people in the room. Uh, and and they're, they're obviously sexual in nature. That's the. Are they sexual in? I think so. What is pride? What does pride celebrate? Celebrates pride. It's a celebration for many of people's marriages that you're saying are invalid, which you're right. Well, even, even if you want to pretend that that can be marriage, marriage has at a very close part to the center of it, sex. It's sexual. And so you can't have then a public marriage in your wife at the Latin Mass. Uh, we don't. No, public, public marriages are very good. But they, they, so he can have his public marriage that you said doesn't exist? Well, he can't be married because two men can't marry each other. But that's a fault. The main here, if I have a float, no nudity, we just have awesome pride flags, is that being prosecuted? What, what else is occurring there? It's just, it's just people. We're dancing to Lady Gaga, doing the splits, jumping up and down on the trampoline, doing splits. Okay, now we're getting a little bit prurient. We are. RuPaul would be upset. Seriously? Seriously. I mean, if you're, you know, if you're so, float with pride flag allowed, people are doing, uh, splits and twerking and I don't know, twerk? Only splits. Splits on trampolines. Is that allowed? And, uh, the trampolines are definitely appealing to the prurient interest. I'm not. You're dodging the question. I have my pride. I just told you I would not permit that. You would not permit that. We're doing about the Miller test. If we're not, if we're talking about, if everything you've just described, everything you've just described, well, you can appeal to the prurient interest while still being fully clothed. Has never been prosecuted that way in precedent. When we look at the courts, what are you talking about? So it's going back. I mean, obviously obscenity law in America goes back to like the 17th century, and there are all sorts of cases of, of, of even going back to the Comstock laws of of material that didn't. That's the real question. If I put a pride flag outside of my house, they should be, they should be banned certainly at government buildings. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't come to your house. I can have a pride. I wouldn't take it down. But if I were in your HOA, I would ban it because it's a very nasty image. It's, and kids shouldn't have to. It's a nasty image of seeing some colors on a flag. You're that triggered about talking about. You know, a flag is a symbol, right? That symbolizes something else. You understand what a flag is. So what does it symbolize? It's LGBT identity. And I don't think that should be waved out in public. That shouldn't be waved out in public in any context. So our float, we take pride flags off, we just say we're gay, it's awesome. Is that being allowed? I don't know. I think it's kind of weird to go out into the street and start preaching about your sexual desires. Would you make it illegal? Well, I, I'm not. My argument isn't that I would change the law to make that illegal. My argument is that laws on me saying I'm gay and it's awesome on a street corner. Uh, yeah, the way you're describing it seems kind of obscene. We're going to criminally prosecute that. Yeah, you in particular? Yes. Me in particular? As a prosecutor? No. Of the LA District? That's right. So we're saying. Pleasure, of course. Uh, hm. Wow. It's really. I hate to pick. I hate to pick favorites. I know you're probably my favorite of the whole show. I'm so tempted. And then, of course, my, uh, fellow cast here. But I think actually I got to pick Greg. Greg, I felt you were really digging in in a serious way. So Greg, you're up. Let's do it. My claim is access to gender-affirming care for minors should be legal. Okay. Why do you think that the global consensus is that when we're talking about gender dysphoria, which is again, just for anyone who doesn't know, I know you know, it's the diagnosable medical condition where someone experiences extreme distress as a result of their physical gender-related attributes, whether that's their genitalia or secondary sexual characteristics like their facial hair, um, and or the way society perceives them doesn't match their sense of gender. Like for me, my sense of gender is that I'm a guy. And if you look at studies, you can find global consensus. Even more specifically, you're talking about the global consensus. The global consensus. Okay, so I guess my question then would be, there was, was a global, certainly a national, but but more than national consensus on the positive medical good of lobotomies in the middle of the 20th century. There was a medical consensus on the seriousness of phrenology and of eugenics for many, many decades. And those all were proven to be terribly, terribly wrong and very harmful to the people on whom, uh, who had to suffer the experiments. So how are you so confident, especially in the face of so much medical literature that contradicts your view, that that it's, uh, worthwhile to experiment on these kids today? Sure. Um, can I get, go out that backwards? Sure. All right. I don't. I'm just a guy. He's, he's a debater. I'm a guy. Okay. Um, so I think that arguably, it is more experimental to deny the care. Um, I think when we look at the history of medical care, evidence-based medicine as a concept is actually relatively recent. It was starting to be taught in like the '80s. I think. I think that's a modern flat. Self-flattery. I don't think that's true. I think actually, just Wikipedia evidence-based medicine. I, but I don't get my knowledge from Wikipedia. Okay. Uh, if you find whatever, some, know, find whatever knowledge is appropriate for you. Um, we had pretty good medicine in the '60s, even the '20s, antiquity. The last thing about, um, I watched, have you seen Nosebleed? The movie? Bled people to fix things. I don't think medicine's always been great. Um, yeah, but I, but I think we're doing terrible things like that now, like castrating little kids. You're referring to castrating little kids. Are you saying, are you referring to a surgical procedure? Are you referring to puberty blockers, which often lead to permanent sterility? And I'm talking. They do. They do. And even the New York Times admitted it. So I, you know, not that I like to cite them, but that's true. And then also, just later on, uh, if, if kids go on to to follow through with the transgender procedures, they will be sterilized. Get with, with certainty. The kid. Could you explain what that means? How, how, what age are they? And how are they following through? The puberty blockers obviously begin with before puberty. And that, that alone, that alone can lead to sterility. And it can lead to all sorts of other health problems. But later on, later on in the teenage years, one could take cross-sex hormones, which have all sorts of terrible health problems associated with them, which also can cause sterility. Okay, that's also fact. And then, and then furthermore, if, if a person, as at 17, 18, 19, or even later, decides to go through with the surgical procedures, say a hysterectomy or any other procedure that by would cause sterility. So going, going, going through that. So I actually, in preparation for this video, cold-called a bunch of doctors. I just emailed them and I like zoomed with them. And they, I also looked at scientific literature directly. I actually, I'm not involved in medical science, but I'm involved in science. I presented at scientific conferences. I have a paper in peer review right now. I've looked directly at this evidence. And I have not seen this evidence you're bringing up that puberty blockers cause sterility. What I have seen, what doctors have told me, according to the guidelines from all these major medical associations, according to the best practices from these different children's hospitals, is that when you're put on puberty blockers, puberty blockers have already been used for decades for precocious puberty, which is another condition. There's a lot of evidence on whether or not it causes harms in general. When you stop puberty blockers, the puberty resumes. And actually, that was the claim. But that's been disproven. And if you, if you get your information, I'm not doubting that you've called doctors, but if you primarily get your information from Wikipedia, you're going to get bad information. I don't. I get my information from PubMed. And doctors. Was just citing places that you had previously mentioned. Okay. You know, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, which has, which has been thrown, uh, absolutely out the window for its methodological errors and lies. WPATH. I would not say WPATH. Can you help me understand the conspiracy then? Because every major medical associate, this is not the American. Like WPATH is just an activist group. Okay. I, I mentioned this earlier. You can go look. Just woke up. Glad major medical associations. Yeah, the gay and lesbian lobby. Sure. Is going to advocate for transgender. They just have links to all of these medical associations. It's not like they, you don't have to take their word for it. It's literally a page that has links to like 30 plus statements. They're hosted on the websites of these medical associations, right? That back up the pro-trans view. Right, right. So it's not the American, it's not the American Transgender Association. It's the American Medical Association. We rely on these, on on these groups of people for advice on how to treat cancer, how to treat depression. There are also industry lobbying groups with a lot of political influence. And there, and there are political alternatives. Everything you could, every, every. I'm just, I'm just explaining that these are political organizations. For any medication, there is a profit incentive for a pharmaceutical company to lobby a medical association. Like, you mean like very expensive cross-sex hormones that people will be hooked on for the rest of their lives from childhood? I was picking up medicine. I was picking up anti-seizure medicine for my brother-in-law last night, and his insurance didn't go through, and they said for a 20-day supply, it's $4,000. There's a lot. It's a problem. I think so. Do you agree that medicine should be cheaper? I, yeah, I'd like for medicine to be cheaper. But I think, wait, we can agree on that. He says medicine should be cheaper. I think you're making my point, which is that there are really perverse medical incentives for groups. Even we saw this at one of the children's transgender clinics that was closed in the United States, that that was acknowledging on camera that when you, when you put a kid down for these procedures, you are making a lot of money for the hospital and for the pharmaceutical industry because you're hooking them on very, very expensive drugs for the rest of their lives. And that's the kind of perverse incentive that you're talking about. So you're, but isn't that true for any medicine? Some, some more than others. So why, why, what is this? This is what I'm trying to understand. So are you just saying that we shouldn't trust medical associations? Why is it one thing? Because these incentives you're outlining apply to all medical care. In this case, I'm trusting the American Journal of Psychiatry. I'm trusting now the Health Services of the United Kingdom, in Sweden and Finland. I'm trusting all sorts. I'm trusting the New York Times, for goodness sake, in its review of a hundred review of 100 studies. When we spoke earlier, you didn't even know what the Cass review found. You told me. I certainly did. I absolutely did. Told me you said I said that it banned the puberty blockers for kids. And you said, well, it restricted them, which are practically synonymous. No, you didn't. You didn't. My sense was you did. You weren't very familiar with this. But a lot of people keep talking about. My sense, I don't know. Like, I come here, I, I refer to these medical papers, and everyone says, well, but I just sense that you want to like kill people or whatever. I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry we triggered you. Yeah, no, my facts unfortunately don't care about your feelings. What facts are you bringing up? Your facts is that you sense that I don't know. I've cited you. I've cited you probably two dozen academic papers. Do you know how many biomedical papers are published per year on this subject? How many generally? How many on this subject generally? A million. How many on this subject? You don't know either. A lot more than 12. You don't know either. Well, here's the thing. Like, do you think that all of these major medical associations? Do you think that all of the reports that I've cited are just false? Do you think the New York Times is just lying when it says the puberty blockers can't be reversed? I don't care about the New York Times. Do you care about? I like their cooking recipes. Why do you keep bringing up the New York Times? You're making me hungry. Okay, my, my point here is when you do like a, like a meta-analysis or a systematic review, or you get, you know, a panel of experts. You mean you don't have access to secret special information that they don't have access to? So why are they all, all these, again, dozens of medical associations? But you're misrepresenting this because you're ignoring the largest data sets on transgender health. You're ignoring the largest scientific and popular publications. And you're saying, yeah, well, WPATH, which is a pro-trans advocacy group, thinks that trans and kids is great. And I'm sure they do. And I'm sure there are other medical associations that have been promoting that too, although fewer and fewer as time goes on, because the longer-term effects of the transgender procedures on kids are coming to pass, and you're seeing more cases of regret, and you're seeing that the suicide rates don't decline. Death. So I didn't just mention that one organization. Um, I actually would love to clear that up for you about the suicide rates. First of all, I want to disambiguate detransition and surgery regret. So detransition typically happens when people are not, it's not that they internally change. It's external pressures like social stigma or familial, you know, being rejected by your family lead people to walk back their transition. Not the, not the detransitioners I've talked to, and I've talked to a number of. Well, that's why you can't just talk to people. That's why we have to do science and evidence. But you kept telling me to focus on anecdotes and not scientific studies. That I don't think I ever said that. I think you're confusing me with another very handsome person here. It's my looks. Um, okay, so, um, my, my point is the, thank you, thank you, everyone. Okay, so detransition is what I just said. Yeah, I don't think that's true though. I think that's just a thing you're saying. Thank you for, thank you for standing for the record that you don't think is true. Moving on. Um, surgery regret is typically, it's not when someone, like, regrets their identity. It's usually when there is something like cosmetic or functional about the result of the surgery. That's a cliffhanger to hang on part two. Yeah. All right. Nice to meet you. Pleasure. This format is great. I love this. And I'm just irritated that we didn't think of this first. Do this yourselves. Some of the interlocutors are a little more serious than others. But I, I really liked chatting with all of them. And they have a great deal of my sympathy. I think Michael, no, he's annoying, to be quite honest, disrespectful, and kind of unintelligent. I think he's a lying Nazi. The way that they usually dishonestly present my views is that I hate them or that I want to kill them or something like that, which I don't. I've explicitly said that I don't. They say, oh, well, we don't want people to die, but they know damn well that the suicide rates skyrocket the second you remove access to gender-affirming care. My favorite conversation occurred with Blossom because I was not really required to speak at all for that conversation, and it made my job much easier. Uh, but he was a nice fellow. He just kept talking over me. It was just like, I got to get in there. I don't care. I'm a black trans woman. I'm a powerhouse. He's going to listen to me. And so I just went forward. I really liked Greg because he was respectful and at least to some degree listening to what the other person was saying. However, the flaw in his argument was that he was grounding his understanding of the truth, and even of medicine, on consensus. And of course, the truth is not necessarily found by means of consensus. That was one of the most horrific experiences I've ever had talking to another human being. I'm very glad I did it, and I'm never doing it again. Mason, who kept calling me Mindy, I felt he was not really engaged in our conversation. Yeah, Michael's a clown. I've talked to Ben, I've talked to Charlie Kirk, I've talked to a lot of conservative figures, and he is the worst at having some sort of cohesive argument. All he tries to do is push people's buttons to get these emotional responses that then he can turn into those viral clips. I admire the bravery of every transgender person that came here today. I would just say that trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. I think that if you went out of your loop a little bit and you got to know us as people one-on-one, you would change how you feel about us. Overall, I don't care what Donald Trump and his administration think they're going to do. The reality is, we're going to always be here. We're going to live in society. So as a matter of the law, we have to accept certain things. You know, either women can have their own bathrooms or they can't. We're at a moment now of particular confusion, and I think we should ditch it, 'cause everyone's getting unhappy. When you're going down the wrong path, the real progressive is the one who stops and turns around and goes back in the other direction.