Transcription
Dr. Casey, thank you so much for coming in today. Um, it's such a privilege. You have some of the broadest experience in the space industry of anyone, from astronomy at NASA to your heavy involvement in the new space industry. And could you briefly describe your career and background to our viewers?
Yeah, sure, Harry. Well, you know, first of all, thank you very much for, for having me today. Um, you guys are certainly doing the right thing at Georgetown, and I wish you, uh, the best of success and, uh, and having an impact within this new space community. Uh, you know, my own background is that I've always been, you know, focused on physics and mathematics, and so it seemed only natural to go off and, uh, you know, pursue my PhD at the time, um, you know, going to college and, uh, in grad school. So, um, uh, with that, you know, there's also an emphasis on, uh, on spaceflight. So after graduating from the University of Chicago, I went to go work at NASA, NASA Goddard, where we focused on instrument development, both hardware and software. And then there was a natural progression, uh, to, uh, work at NASA Ames to support their Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy, which was their airborne observatory program. And it was a, you know, it was a unique opportunity because they were building the, uh, building the facility. It was a 747 SP, uh, designed to house a two and a half meter mirror, two and a half meter telescope, uh, developed by DLR in Germany. So it was a US-German partnership. But a unique thing about the program was, uh, NASA was experimenting with, um, you know, a, what they call GOCO, a government-owned, contractor-operated, uh, facility. And, you know, at the time, leaving Goddard, you could really see that there was movement afoot for NASA to change its paradigm for how it would do, uh, how it would do programs. SOFIA was an opportunity to really, uh, really live that and involved moving to the Bay Area and Silicon Valley.
So after working on the SOFIA program and being out of academics for a while, it, you know, it took a bit of motivation to think, hey, gee, maybe I need to go back and get another degree. And I went and got my MBA at the Berkeley-Columbia program, which was a great experience. Lots of, uh, you know, great cohort, a good opportunity to travel back and forth between New York and, uh, and the Bay Area to key financial centers. And, uh, you know, I use that to expand my understanding of early-stage companies and the finance and, uh, you know, the focus on, uh, you know, what it takes to build various companies. Today, I'm working with Atlas Space Operators, which is an early-stage company focused on ground station communications. And, you know, before that, I founded the Silicon Valley Space Center, which was working with a number of early-stage companies, some of which are around today, and others that have kind of just, uh, you know, faded, you know, faded into the, into the ether. But it's, it's been a very interesting, uh, progression from working as an astrophysicist to working business development, sales, and, uh, you know, helping build out the customer portfolio for a very exciting company like Atlas Space Operations.
Right, absolutely. Well, thank you for that. Um, what, what would you say, in your own words, what are some characteristics of, uh, the new space industry, and how does it differ from the firms that would traditionally come to mind when someone would think about the space industry?
Well, you know, um, what's really happened is that the technology has, has changed. And we certainly, as you look out for early-stage companies, there are a lot of, uh, disruptive technologies that, let's say, haven't been adopted by, uh, traditional players in the aerospace sector. Clayton Christensen's, uh, Innovator's Dilemma is kind of a classic text on that example, where entrepreneurs can take new technologies and bring them into, well, I would say, you know, not necessarily a stagnant field, but one that lacks innovation and disrupt, disrupt the industry. And that's pretty much what you're seeing in, um, in new space. And, you know, from, uh, SpaceX with their reusable, uh, launch vehicle to, uh, companies like Planet Labs and, and others in the smallsat sector, that are taking both hardware and hardware and software that's come out of the cell phone industry, the communications industry, the big data industry, and applying that to, applying that to the space sector. So, um, new space is about taking innovative, disruptive technologies and applying them in a, in a sector that's been, let's say, reluctant to, uh, to adopt those technologies. Um, there are a lot, a number of good examples of this. We mentioned SpaceX, Planet Labs. Are also companies that are working on synthetic aperture, uh, radar, those companies that are like, uh, Umbra Labs, that are developing the hardware while at the same time allowing, uh, software developers to monetize, monetize the data. Many companies think they need to be vertically integrated. Is that true? Is that not true? I mean, that's, that's its own decision. But I was in a discussion with, um, some of the people from, um, uh, Space Capital, saying, you know, what things do you focus on, uh, as a company? And the things that, uh, are really adding value to customers, the things that are your secret sauce, uh, that you alone bring value to, are probably the things you want to do in-house. And, uh, other things, um, that, uh, uh, that perhaps aren't in your expertise, you know, perhaps you can find a partner, um, to make that work. There's kind of a push and pull between vertical integration and just, and distributed company assets. And I would say it's kind of that decision is made on a case-by-case, case-by-case basis. But new space is fundamentally about taking disruptive technologies and applying them to the aerospace sector.
Absolutely. And, um, having, having worked extensively in both, um, the private and public side of things, both, um, NASA and, um, your work in the new space industry, do you, do you see a point in the future where, um, the needs of NASA and the commercial space industry diverge? Today, they work very closely in tandem, very closely with each other, and NASA supports many parts of the commercial space industry directly. Do you see this dynamic shifting anytime soon, and if so, over what specifically would you, uh, project?
Um, yeah, I mean, I think the, uh, you know, the commercial space sector exists when you're talking about commercial space. And, you know, for companies that aren't deriving all of their business from, uh, from the government, you know, they're providing a service to customers in the, in the private sector. Um, those companies, if you go out and you're pitching your company, you really have to be able to assess what are the risks associated with the development of that technology. Um, you know, we've had 50 years of spaceflight, so there's certain aspects of the problem that are kind of known within the, within the commercial sector. Therefore, it makes sense for when you're able to assess risk and you're able to assess what the market is, that you can build a company based on those, uh, those two positions. Certainly, investors want to know, what are the risks in this company? And then how big is, uh, how big is the market? Um, NASA will continue, uh, to exist because it serves, um, the, you know, the, the, uh, the needs of, of, uh, of government, serves needs of, uh, scientists and, uh, uh, and engineers, and it has a national, uh, national objective. Um, their ability to partner with, uh, commercial companies, um, is important, much like how the government partners with, uh, with the commercial sector in many cases. It's probably important for government not to, uh, duplicate what's done in the private sector. I mean, that's kind of a unique aspect of, of how business works, uh, in the United States, that we feel that commercial companies should have the opportunity to provide services both to commercial customers and government customers. Um, but, uh, for those cases where we can't assess risk, um, where you kind of don't know what the, uh, what the downside might be, those are the kinds of projects where, you know, NASA, you know, should take the lead. For those, uh, projects where NASA has experience based on, you know, their past accomplishments, it's important to get that experience out of the government and into, uh, private industry. I think we all benefit, uh, we all benefit from that. So, I, I see it, there's a sort of a symbiotic relationship that will always exist between government, uh, and the public, government and the, and the private industry. And, uh, it's important for the government to embrace what the private industry can do, and it's important for private industry to work with government to achieve those things which, you know, we find, uh, uh, difficult to accomplish and kind of stretch the imagination.
Understood. Yeah, understood. Um, in your 30-year history watching the commercial space industry develop alongside NASA, what most excites you, and, um, what most frustrates you about the current state of the space industry, and maybe where it's where it's headed as well?
Yeah, I mean, this is, this is, as you say, a very, very exciting time. Um, I like my heart, I liken this to how aviation developed, uh, throughout the 20th century. The beginning of the 20th century, we had a rudimentary understanding of, of aviation, and at the end of the 20th century, you could easily get on a jet aircraft, you know, buy a ticket on a moment's notice and fly halfway across the world, uh, uh, to a destination, which, you know, previously would have taken a month or more, a month or more to get there. Um, 20th century also excelled in developing communications. The kinds of innovations that we saw in the 20th century are will be similar to what we see in the 21st century. And certainly within the, uh, the aerospace sector, we've got 50 years of experience of, of building and launching satellites. We've got 50 years of experience of, of human spaceflight. And now is the time for expanding, taking that government experience and rolling it out into, into the commercial sector. Um, we've seen a lowering of the barrier to entry, which allows entrepreneurs to come here, come in to that sector with a lot of innovative ideas that, you know, probably haven't seen their, you know, their time in the sun yet. And, um, this is what spurs innovation. It's when you have a lot of people participating in space. And it's not just, you know, the spaceflight participants, like on Virgin Galactic, buy your ticket and get a suborbital, uh, spaceflight, or, uh, you know, maybe, uh, with Blue Origin, get a normal spaceflight, or SpaceX later on. But I think it's, it's the business of space. How can you use space as a, uh, as an, as an asset for building and growing a company? We've seen that in the small satellite sector. We're going to see that with regard to, uh, lunar activities. And when you talk to people in the mining industry, they say, you know, you know something about the moon, but you probably don't really know enough. There's probably still more to understand before you go off and build lunar mining colonies. But that is, uh, that's a big, that's a big opportunity. To the extent that, uh, NASA provides the direction and, of course, the funding for making that happen, that's going to be a big plus for, uh, for lunar growth. Um, we see the same thing in LEO with the funding of a number of early-stage companies to build habitats in LEO. We've got robotic missions. We've got tremendous economies of scale when it comes to AI and robotics. And how will we take those economies of scale and apply them to, uh, the space exploration? Uh, and, you know, I look and say, you know, pretty much the next 20 years is a very exciting time for, uh, for LEO, uh, human spaceflight in LEO, the return to the moon, also within the next, the next 20 years, was returned to stay. And clearly, within the 21st century, uh, the expansion of technology to broaden our understanding of Mars and robotic vehicles. I mean, NASA's been tremendously successful in fielding a number of robotic vehicles to explore the surface of Mars and understand the origin of life in our, in our solar system. So, hello, you know, life here on Earth, right? But, um, and which is a big, you know, sort of somewhat of a mystery, right? I mean, why is life here on Earth? And you've surveyed the other planets, you can see how inhospitable they are. But, you know, for Mars, what's that four billion-year history of, of the potential for life on Mars? Did life ever exist on Mars? If so, why? If not, why not? And then, of course, um, you know, as we look at another NASA missions, doing the, uh, exploration out to, um, I mean, the, uh, survey of planet-forming systems, in the immediate vicinity of our solar system and, you know, throughout our galaxy, a very exciting, very exciting topic. So, I mean, I think by the time we get to the end of the 20th century, we should have, um, you know, a combination of both robotic and, and human presence, uh, on the moon, um, uh, some sort of combination of those two on, on Mars, and then a much deeper understanding of how, um, habitable planets, the number of habitable planets, the number of Earth-like planets, uh, in our own galaxy, and then how many of those, you know, possibly are, uh, reservoirs of, uh, of life. So, I mean, we'll fundamentally ask, answer a number of questions that, you know, we've been asking as a civilization for for hundreds, if not thousands of thousands of years. And all of that, you know, within our lifetime, right?
And, um, the most, the most frustrating part about, uh, the current state of the space industry and maybe where it's headed? That's the positive side. You know, um, I would say if you really want to get frustrated, talk about, uh, trying to please customers, right? I mean, and I think that's an important aspect for, for the new space sector. It's not about the technology, and it's not about old things that get you excited, but it's about really saying, you know, what do my customers want, and how to serve them properly? How to, uh, um, acquire customers, and how to retain them? And, you know, sometimes, uh, you know, if you've got a lockdown on the industry, you know, are you, are you really serving customers the best way possible? And, and I think, uh, a lot of companies struggle with that whole notion of customer acquisition and, uh, and customer retention. How do you really understand, walk in the shoes of your customers, and develop a product that, uh, that meets their needs? And here in Silicon Valley, we talk about, you know, is it an aspirin or is it a vitamin? Vitamins are like nice-to-have things, but what you really need is, you want to find out what are the pain points, where does your customer need an aspirin, and that's what you're, uh, that's what you're going to give them. So, um, and, and that, you know, you've got to, you've got to work hard. And it's not just sitting in your office and thinking about what the customer problems are, but engaging with customers. Scientists and engineers are are known for, you know, great, you know, feats of, uh, of cerebral achievements, and less so for being outgoing and interacting with everybody. Um, and so I think that's a very important aspect of the new space sector is, how do you identify what are customer problems, and then how do you answer, uh, uh, you know, create a product that answers, uh, that answers those needs? So, um, if anything within the new space sector, I think this is something that we've all got to do a better job of. You see it all the time, you know, when you're shopping in retail, or, you know, you're going to fast food, there's always an emphasis on customers, but we have to bring that same customer-focused mindset to the new space sector.
And building off that idea of cultivating a mentality of customer value above all of our things in the new space industry, um, where would you say the opportunity in the new space industry is today? And launch companies are the most flashy and get some of the most attention, but is there an opportunity in a more specific, maybe less flashy part of the industry that people tend to overlook, but is it going to be both a very impactful and lucrative player in, uh, the near future?
Yeah, well, you know, launch companies lower the barrier to entry, uh, to space. And, you know, with companies like SpaceX, you're seeing the price point come down for, you know, the cost of getting one kilogram, uh, to orbit. Um, you know, and this gets back to the early question of like, what is new space about? Uh, new space was that, uh, all of a sudden, the space business was something that was, um, compatible with Silicon Valley investment strategies. You know, in Silicon Valley, when you're starting a company, you're going to go through tranches of funding, and each tranche of funding is intended to mitigate some risk of failure, you know, customer acquisition, customer product fit, uh, you know, expansion of the, uh, expansion of the business. And, uh, the lowering the barrier to entry to space and technologies that have large economies of scale, kind of put the space business into the realm of what you could do, uh, with a Silicon Valley type, type startup. And by that, I mean, um, that, you know, for $600, $600,000, you could demonstrate some level of success with your technology for ground-based applications. You know, for a couple of million dollars, you could build and launch and deploy your satellite and operate it in orbit. For tens of millions of dollars, you could expand on that concept and fly, you know, tens of, uh, tens of satellites, uh, and so forth. So, what happened is that space started to fit the Silicon Valley model that has been successful across any other, uh, many other verticals. Again, you know, reflecting back on, you know, where is space going to solve these problems? Uh, you've got to, uh, you know, if you're an entrepreneur and you're thinking about, hey, I'd like to start a company, you better go back and and say, well, what are the problems that exist where space can be, uh, uh, you know, a solution to that, to that problem? You know, an entrepreneur doesn't have to focus on space, but space is an asset which is accessible within the funding model of, of Silicon, of Silicon Valley. A great, um, you know, a great example of that is, uh, a company like, uh, Orbit Fab, you know, with Dan Faber, uh, where Dan is focused on, um, kind of refueling of satellites in low Earth orbit. We're seeing, um, the adoption of satellites with propulsion technologies. As you start talking about more satellites flying in low Earth orbit, you've got to watch out for collisions, you've got to be able to maneuver your satellite. Well, what does that mean? That probably means that propulsion technology is going to be important. When you have propulsion technology, well, tell me about the fuel that's, uh, that's associated with that. I mean, some of those are markets that have yet to be developed. But I would say if it becomes obvious that you should be addressing that market, it's probably too late. Because if it's obvious, it's probably obvious to you and a lot of other people. Um, you know, we've seen that with Earth observations. 10 years ago, you know, the Earth observations were dominated by a few very large companies. And Planet came in and said, hey, you know, we use smallsat technologies. Yeah, we use smallsat technology. Um, we can, you know, uh, observe the Earth on a daily basis. And when you're doing that, what do you actually see? We've never, we've never had the opportunity to take a snapshot of the planet on a daily basis. And so there's a certain aspect of what happens when you build it and you start to see things that otherwise you never would have, never would have, never would have expected, which is part of the science of it. But then again, they can do it at a price point, uh, which is attractive to a Silicon Valley, uh, a Silicon Valley, uh, Silicon Valley investor and, uh, you know, to, uh, uh, customers. So, um, you know, we mentioned before vertical integration. I think Planet has kind of rethought their model and trying to invite more people in to help do that last mile of answering customers for questions. They've got a huge database. How do you use the Planet software to turn the crank on the data and answer questions to, uh, new customers? So, um, you know, where are the opportunities? We've got a huge, what I would call, a tsunami of Earth observation data, which is capable of answering questions for farmers, for investors, for retail, retail engineers. I mean, here we're living in COVID, but, uh, you know, I think at some point the economy will, uh, will bounce back on these things. But, you know, you might say, um, how can I take all this data that exists from both private and government, uh, satellites and synthesize it into a product that adds value to customers that customers are willing to pay for? In that sense, Earth's, Earth observation data is a big data play. It's a big data play, much like anything else. And so, how, if you're doing data fusion, it's not just data fusion with Earth observation data at one wavelength or another, or imaging versus synthetic aperture radar, 3D, 3D point cloud data, but then also, how do I include some of the other big data that's out there? Big data coming from, uh, social, uh, social media outlets, or big data that's coming from economics, data that's going in and out of, in and out of harbors. And it's tough to cover all fronts of a very broad ecosystem. And I think it's, it's an opportunity for entrepreneurs to come in and say, I understand this industry well, whether it's the insurance industry, whether it's the retail industry, whether it's the real estate industry, and say, all this data that's coming in from space, how can I use this to better serve the needs of, of my customers? You know, all entrepreneurs and all investors want to know, where is the next big thing? And as anybody, if, like, if you had the answer, you know, would you be doing what you're doing today, or would you be off pursuing that? So I would say, um, aside from the answers, is what are the, you know, in science, what matters is not in part, it's the answers, but sometimes the breakthrough in science comes from asking the right question. Again, the right question is, what are the thing, what are the problems that customers have that can be addressed by the data and the assets that are available in space? How can you use the microgravity environment to, you know, produce products that otherwise you can't produce, um, you know, in a 1G environment here on Earth? I mean, how can you take, um, the technologies that have large economies of scale, as I said, like AI or robotics, and apply that to the space sector? If you're looking at, um, you know, what we did going to the moon in the 1960s, we live in a completely different world today than, uh, than 50, uh, you know, 50 plus, uh, years ago. We have a whole different suite of, uh, technology tools that we can apply to these problems. And, you know, I think if you look at robotics, self-driving cars, the technology that makes self-driving vehicles possible, those same things, you're like, how can I apply this, uh, to the aerospace sector? How can I apply, you know, numerical modeling techniques to the next generation of vehicles? How can I improve, take the advantage of Moore's Law and the incredible processing power we have, and apply that to the analysis of big data to real-time problems and make decisions, uh, uh, you know, on the fly? So, uh, I mean, I think that's what makes this time so exciting is that we have so many technologies that are capable of solving so many big problems. Uh, it's worthwhile for entrepreneurs to pause and say, what are the big problems, and then how can I go solve this with the technology that's at hand?
Right, right, right. Absolutely. And, um, our final question, as a former NASA airborne astronomer, was there any project you specifically worked on or revelation that you came to about the universe through your work, uh, that gives you pause or some piece of wisdom that you've always carried with you?
I think, I think this is a, uh, more of a statement about our, our time here, um, right now. I, I just like to joke with people that, um, given the New Horizons mission and the Pluto flyby that we've done, we've kind of completed the marketing survey of the solar system to determine that the largest markets in our solar system exist here on Earth, right? You know, you haven't been really fine, you know, lots of life elsewhere. Um, you know, other, other parts of the solar system are pretty, pretty uninhabitable. I mean, there's, you know, it's, it's difficult, you know, it's difficult to exist in LEO, it's difficult to exist on the moon. I mean, all those are big, big challenges. And, um, I think the 21st century, aside from being an exciting time, is also an inflection point. And, uh, you know, we're, we're looking at things where evident, you know, as I say, evidence-based reasoning is, uh, has been the hallmark of, of the Enlightenment, uh, for the last couple of hundred, a couple of hundred years. And, you know, if you're ignoring the evidence and, uh, making decisions in the absence of what science tells you, that's probably not a good thing. It's probably the wrong thing to do. And it's, and I would say it's probably regressive, and it's pushing us back to, uh, to times that we'd probably not like to, not like to return to. So, um, I, you know, I think it's for everyone's benefit, uh, as we deploy new technologies and we look at the problems that are facing, uh, the planet as a whole, that we probably tread, uh, tread very carefully, because the consequences of our, of our actions, uh, in the 21st century are likely to, uh, have ramifications for many, many, many, many generations to come, and for many, many people, some of which haven't even been, many of which haven't even been born yet. So, um, you know, as a scientist, I mean, I approach much of what I do as a scientist and say, well, what's the reason for doing that? Or if I had that piece of data, what would I do differently? And we seem to live in a time where people ignore the data that's, uh, that's there. They ignore the predictions of scientists, which, you know, I believe is probably not a, not a good thing. So, um, but, uh, this will be, uh, one of the most exciting and, um, uh, challenging centuries, uh, for us to face collectively, uh, as a planet. Um, we have a, we have a great place to live. We should keep it that way. We've got a lot of places to go. We've got an entire solar system to explore that will provide us with conundrums that we otherwise would never have anticipated. And those things will only occur to us by being there and by asking questions and and seeking answers. So, you know, for the group at Georgetown, I think you guys are in an ideal spot to position yourselves to be, you know, impactful players in the new space sector. We've been talking about science and engineering. It's also about, uh, politics. It's also about sociology. All of these things come to play in the new space sector. And, uh, you know, I think, uh, your group is doing its part to engage new minds, ask new questions, to find new answers, in the 21st century. So I applaud your efforts and certainly welcome an opportunity to, to work with you, uh, in the years ahead.
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, uh, Dr. Casey, it's been an excellent conversation. Um, I really enjoyed it, and I hope everyone watching, um, finds it as valuable as I did. Um, thank you so much. Really appreciate you.
Thank you very much. You.