Art Bell vs. Scientology: The Forbidden Broadcast They Don’t Want You to Hear

Now, uh, to uh, the Reverend Heber Jentz. I believe somewhere down near the LA area, probably. Reverend Jentz, uh, good evening.

Good evening. How are you?

Uh, very well, thank you. Welcome to the program.

Well, I'm glad to be here. And uh, how are things out your way?

Uh, things are uh, dry and well, thank you. After some storms raging over the uh, the high desert here. Uh, Reverend Jentz, what um, what in the world is Scientology? What what actually is it?

Well, first of all, Scientology is an applied religious philosophy. It deals with you as an individual, you as a spiritual being. We understand that man is a spiritual being, that he has a mind which is not your brain. I know the psychiatrist say it's your brain; it's not your brain. And you have a body, and that you can affect the body through the mind. We also—it's not a belief system or a dogma. It is a religion which is based upon scientific principles and which draws on Eastern thought of how uh, the whole concept of man is a spiritual being from the East and then uses Western technology to combine and to help the person understand who he is, what he is, where he's going, what he's doing. And it is something which—you use practical rules and principles in Scientology to remove past problems, past stops in your life, uh, traumatic incidents of the past, which then gives you a better capability to do what you want to do, to achieve your goals in present time. So it is not something which people just believe; it's not something which is a dogma. It is something which uh, a person can apply in his life and see changes in his life. And again, it's not—it's not a thing where you have to believe in something for it to occur; it's you do something yourself using the principles of Scientology. You make up your own mind whether it works; does matter what I say or whether what you say or what anybody else says. You discover for yourself its workability, and that's its value. It's a very practical, applied religious philosophy.

Well, I certainly understand the aspect of the mind affecting uh, the body, and you being a summation of your history. That certainly all makes sense. Um, is—is Scientology a religion?

Yes. I mean, you know, it comes from—religion comes from the word "re-ligare," to find back. Religion has always dealt with the concept of the human spirit; nothing else has ever dealt with that. And uh, it's always been the province of religion, at least, and Scientology certainly fits that. In fact, um, on October the 1st, in 1993, um, the Church of Scientology has uh, got full recognition by the Internal Revenue Service for all of its churches and its U—its various uh, public organizations, charitable organizations, recognizing that they were established and are established for religious and charitable purposes. Uh, further, um, that ended a 40-year war that we had with the Internal Revenue Service. But in doing so, why—why did you have that war, Reverend? I mean, what was the contention of the IRS?

Well, it was interesting; we uh, we had gotten into a long-term battle based U—on the fact that in 1950, 21 days after Mr. Hubbard wrote the book *Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health*, the American Money Association—better than own, probably American Medical Association—along with the American Psychiatric Association got together and issued Ed—uh, papers and letters to each other at first, saying, "I don't know what this is, but we don't like it; let's get rid of it." Uh, they felt that if psychosomatic illnesses could be resolved, and which they could, by the man in the street who had now, for the first time, workable technology which dealt with the mind, it would encroach upon a very lucrative area of their—their control.

I see. Well, to give that—to give that uh, Reverend, a little power, there was a study that came out the other day um, about people who are given U—uh, pills, sugar pills, you know, the—do absolutely nothing. UH, 60 or I forget, perhaps 70% of them had a positive reaction, because just because they thought they were getting something that was going to cure them.

Sure. And you know, that shows the power of the mind. And of course, uh, when *Dianetics* came out, uh, Mr. Hubbard discovered that the mind was composed of pictures; that um, people recorded things in the mind uh, by making pictures of things. I mean, if I ask you what you had for breakfast, you probably get a picture of what you had for breakfast right there.

Sure. It's a way of recording in it. But then there—the—there's the other side of the mind which is called the reactive mind, and that mind deals with moments of pain or unconsciousness or threat or loss, and that sort of thing. And that mind is just below one's consciousness, but it can affect an individual because things are said. And it's interesting, Mr. Hubbard brought this out in 1950, but um, at that time he was way ahead of his time, and he said, "Look, when people talk around an unconscious person, that can affect them." I've seen a lot of press in the last five, six years here is saying that the doctors are saying they should be quiet in the operating room because things that are said affect the person adversely.

It's true.

Well, that was something which U—he brought out back in 1950. So you know, I was thinking of sort of a classic case: an individual who um, fell from a cliff about 20 or so feet uh, in Hawaii while he was doing climbing, and um, people stood around and he was unconscious and saying, "Boy, it looks like he'll never walk again," and he'd broken his legs anyway. He—he went to a hospital; his legs were healed, but he had an extreme difficult walking—difficulty walking. There was nothing physically wrong with him, but again, by using *Dianetics*, he was able to go back uh, in time to sort of rerun that subconscious tape, that—that video recording, if you will, or that tape recording of what had occurred, and then heard the people saying, "Oh, you probably never walk again," and so forth. And that restored his capability to—to walk because it was psychosomatic.

All right. Well, then why is um, Scientology more than a placebo?

Well, because it's an exact U—it's an exact technology of how to deal with the mind. It's a way of approaching that subconscious part of the mind in what we call *Dianetics*, meaning through the mind, going back and locating the exact moment of pain or unconsciousness, what was said, being able to review that, and you know, without drugs, without hypnosis, or anything like that. Anyone can do it who can read a book and um, read *Dianetics*. There's ways uh, listed in there to do that, but it's a very precise technology. And when I say technology, that probably is something people don't necessarily understand, but technology uh, indicates that it's something—if you do it repetitively, you can always get a result.

Well, that is what is new in the spirit, and my *Dianetics* has now sold almost 17 million copies internationally, and Mr. Hubbard's works on Scientology, *Dianetics*, and other writings now number about 155 million in the public arena. That's uh—that's a lot of—lot of books sold.

All right. Um, what about the actual religious as—aspect? In other words, um, uh, what does Scientology teach about uh, God and uh, and religion in general?

Well, first of all, we—you know, we—we hold that uh, an individual may have his own particular belief system about what God is; it's not a dogma. So we don't tell him that this is what God is, but we do say there is a Supreme Being. We recognize that there is a Supreme Being. And since Scientology is pan-denominational, people can come in from all kinds of religions. In fact, uh, a lot of times you'll find out that people um, will have a dual membership; uh, they may be uh, Jewish, and they may be—they might be Scientologists at the same time, but they'll have their own concept of what God is. And I think we sort of approach it from the Buddhist tradition, which is: you understand yourself first as a spiritual being, and then later on you can understand your relationship to the Supreme Being. I'm simplifying this a lot.

You know, that's fine. I think I appreciate that.

What happens to us when we die, Reverend?

Well, we come back. Art, and uh, you know, that's—that's an interesting concept. I don't—not—not reincarnation where the concept—people come back as animals or whatever other things—man, you know, a spiritual being comes back in um, in a body and lives again. Now, uh, you know, I realize that that sort of goes against a lot of the Western tradition, but it's certainly something which has been—billions of people have followed for years and years in Eastern tradition. So it's more—it's more in the Eastern tradition: you live again, and one has more than one life. And of course, that's kind of interesting too, because I—again, Mr. Hubbard found this with *Dianetics* back in 1950, and he—he said, "Well, this is a phenomena that people talk about having lived before."

Yes. And then I read this stuff in the last three or four years, and—and there's people hopping on the bandwagon as if that was something that they had totally discovered and knew—finding that if you counsel people about having lived in past lives that they live better—live—they felt better, they had greater health. So these—Mr. Hubbard was way ahead of his time when he wrote the book *Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health*.

How did you get to be president of uh, of Scientology? How does that happen?

Well, that—that was something where uh, I have been in Scientology now for almost 28 years; in fact, this year marks my 28th year in Scientology. And uh, at the time when the Church of Scientology International was established back in 1981, uh, by that time I had been in Scientology for almost 15 years.

Mhm.

And uh, I had worked for the church um—well, let's see, by that time I've been a full-time staff member for uh, a little over 10 years. And the—a board of directors was formed, and at that time they were looking for someone to be the president. And since I had established myself as a um, executive and worked for the church for all those years, it was decided that um, I would be the president. And that's uh—I was the first president, and I've been that president since uh, 1981.

No—no little puffs of smoke rising from Scientology headquarters or anything, I take it. In other words, you don't—you don't have that sort of uh, a pomp and circumstance?

No, it's funny you mentioned that. I—I guess not uh, you know, it's just um, we're—we're hardworking folks, and um, you know, we recognize that—

No, I see what you're saying. No, I—you said the puffs of smoke—you—I live here in LA, and we've had riots and everything else, and earthquakes, and I—for a second I just shifted my attention, but I—saying, "No, there's no papal bull; there's no uh—no such thing. It's not U—not something like that."

All right, I missed the humor of it for a second, but no—no. Um, now, people who are in Scientology hold positions of trust based on their competence and their long—long years of service. Okay, but it's not something where you know, there's some sort of um—I mean, very direct—it's not a divine appointment or something like that.

No.

All right. Nevertheless, you are a reverend.

That's right. I mean, but I also studied extensively to do that, you know. Understand that I—before I came into the Church of Scientology, that I—I went to college, and I graduated from the University of Utah out there in Salt Lake City. So I know what it takes in terms of getting a degree in the kind of study that one does for the various subjects in order to major in those subjects uh, in order for me to become a minister. I—I spent, just for that particular level, equivalent of four years in uh, in college in a major to uh, arrive at that particular point. So there are basic studies that one does, learning about the mind, learning about the counseling techniques of Scientology, which are very precise and very well articulated. So I had to do all that before I became a minister.

Mhm. And it's—you know, it's a—it's a regimen; it's not um—it's not something uh, easily or simply uh, given to an individual. There is a good deal of study involved.

I'm sure there is. How—how big uh, is Scientology? Will you tell—how many members you have?

We now have uh, over 8 million members internationally. Uh, we are located in 102 countries. We now have some 1500 organizations internationally. Uh, Scientology and its books and works have been translated into over 40 different languages. And um, you know, Scientology has been growing tremendously in Europe. Um, the *Dianetics* books are very popular in Russia right now, and uh, Germany, of all places, where we have probably the greatest amount of problems dealing with the old neo-fascism problems over there, at the same time Scientology is growing very strongly in that country.

I could imagine Scientology would grow very quickly indeed uh, in Russia. Uh, it's very troubled right now. Um, there haven't been a lot of traditional uh, religions there, and uh, so it just would—it would thrive. It would make sense that it would thrive in Russia.

Well, there have been 70 years of uh, the teachings of no religion except for some of the folks who've, you know, lived through that time, and um, there really hasn't been a religion in Russia per se. But at the same time, you'll find that Russians are um—they are concerned; they have a sort of a Western approach in terms of science; they want something which—which works. And so they are inquisitive in that direction. Um, but there is a resurgence in religion in Russia, and um, certainly there are the conflicts uh, where the Russian Orthodox Church coming back into power um, is concerned about other religions. But of course, Russia has always been a place of many different ethnicities and different religions if one looks at the traditions going back through the centuries. So it certainly isn't something new. Scientology, though, in that sense is new in that um, we're talking about the precision of counseling; we're talking about a way to understand the mind, a way to um, understand oneself—oneself spiritually. So there is a large appeal in Russia.

I will—I will say that is quite true.

All right. Um, I'm familiar with uh, some forms of Buddhism, and there is a fairly radical sect of Buddhism that's come into America now—now known as uh, I believe, N and Shōshū Sokka Gakkai. Are you familiar with that?

I've heard of Soka Gakkai and N and Shōshū. Uh, I'm not terribly familiar with U—with their teachings. But when you say "radical" um—"radical" um—uh, from a Buddhist uh, mainline Buddhist perspective, and um—uh, so I'm—I'm sure you're sensitive to that word "radical"—do people regard you as radical? As a matter of fact, how do the traditional religions in America respond? Do they regard Scientology as a threat and evil, or how do they regard it?

No, I think that uh, you know, that's changed quite a bit. I think there was a bit of controversy back—certainly there was controversy back in the 60s and 70s, and um, but over the last uh, five or seven years um, it's changed quite a bit. As a matter of fact, the Church of Scientology was quite involved with 63 other organizations—all the mainline religions—in the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Uh, that was the famous Smith case that occurred up there in the—the Pacific Northwest, where uh, essentially the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment and religion was not um, an inalienable right, but a privilege granted by the state. So we worked alongside by side with Catholics, with um, with Mormons, with Baptists, with the Protestants, with um—with the Jewish faith. I mean, it was an incredible uh, gathering together of all religions, and Scientology was very much involved in that. In fact, I had the opportunity to go back there and to speak uh, when—when Clinton signed that into law, and uh, we were called by the White House and invited to the White House.

I think that's over. And I think the—the recognition of the Church of Scientology by the Internal Revenue Service—and by the way, that was the most assiduous, exhaustive examination uh, in the history of this country that was done on the churches of Scientology to see whether or not they should pass scrutiny and to receive as an entire organization their recognition as religious and U—charitable organizations and being established for religious and purposes—we passed that test. So no, I think that that conflict is gone. I think there might be some residual noise out there, but Scientology has arrived as a—as a religion. And certainly, I work with Catholics; I work with Jewish people; I work with people of all faiths. In fact, um, I'm a member of a group called The American Conference on Religious Movements. It's been around for eight years, and uh, you know, they are Catholics, uh, there are Methodists, uh, Protestants on that board; the head of the um—the dean of the uh, religious studies at Catholic University, William Sner, is on the board, and—and myself, and um, a friend of mine, Moos Durst, from the Unification Church, and we have brought together religions of all kinds and uh, created dialogues with this organization for the last eight years.

Reverend, um, I know you have had your own recent dealings with the federal government, the IRS, I guess. So I'm curious, how do you view—we only have about a minute here—how do you view what happened in Waco, Texas?

Well, I think that Nancy Ammerman's report, which was part of the Department's report, is a very key point to look at, and the fact that Nancy brought up the fact that uh, the anti-religious uh, group activities—I call them the "criminal association network"—their involvement in inciting that uh, Waco situation is something which she was deeply concerned about. Uh, that was one major point that she brought up: that they were the inciters of that issue. And the other point she brought up, which was extremely important, was the failure of the agencies involved—FBI, ATF—to use religious people who understood what the situation was, who offered their services uh, to do negotiations and so forth, and they were denied that right to do it.

All right, we—we have to break off there; we're at the bottom of the hour. Reverend, hold on; we'll be right back to you.

Yes.

You asked about Waco, and uh, not only Nancy Ammerman's uh—uh, presentation to the Justice Department is important; I um, I've had the opportunity to meet with a number of religious leaders around the—the country who were deeply, deeply disturbed about what occurred down there. And I know that James Dunn, who is the head of the Joint Baptist Committee, representing I don't know about 30 million Baptists in America, and the former director, James Wood, who was at Baylor University right there uh, in Waco—I mean, James Wood is there; James Dunn is in Washington, D.C.—both were extremely concerned about this. And—and James Dunn and Dean Kelly, the National Council of Churches Religious U—Freedom Committee, both offered to uh, go in there, and I know others who did the same name and were denied the opportunity to go in there. The—what they were told was, "Well, we have our own professionals." And what they depended upon were psychiatrists. And of course, these people here from the um, criminal association network—what—there's an article written by—in *The Nation* by Alexander Cockburn, in May 9th, 1994, and people might pick that up because uh, it's a rather—it's a rather strong analysis of what occurred uh, in that situation down there. And it involves the person who had held one of the Davidians for five days over here in Glendale, California, and quote "deprogrammed" him and then taken him to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as a former Davidian and used him as a key person to uh, file complaints against the Davidians. And uh, again, it was indicated by Ammerman's report that taking people with such extreme animosity as uh, was presented here to then uh, express themselves against that group really did not serve a good purpose. And of course, uh, it was horrible. I just came back from Europe um, two days ago, and um, people over there are—are appalled such a thing happened. They—in fact, they are terrified about such a thing. And I—I was—I was interested; the commentary comes down to this: at a place called East Grinstead, there's a St. Swithin's Church, and as you walk around the yard—I just saw this last week—there are three tombstones, and uh, in Latin uh, it is the—it is the ashes of the last three witches which were buried in 1567 or 1557—burned at the stake in England—and it says they were of the "other faith." So my point simply being that uh, the hysteria being generated here uh, in America—it has really a two-sided sort of—sort of seems to be two-sided, at least. But the point is, we have plurality of religion over here. You know, there's only one church in—in England; it's the Anglican Church. Other churches are registered as religious charitable organizations. Uh, that's kind of fascinating; there's just that one church. Over here we have a plurality; there are a lot of different churches; that's how the Constitution was set up. And I just want to make a point that uh, religions do have a right to exist in America; they may be different, and they may have different—different—different philosophies, different religions, but that is America, and that's what's made America strong. And I think the respect for each other's religions is extremely important, and it's something that should be developed rather than something that should be played against each other.

Is—is Scientology a fairly open-minded uh, religion? Um, in other words, it—it's very inclusive, or not?

It's very inclusive, because people of all religions join Scientology, and um—I mean, we've had people who, as I say, are from—from many different faiths, and even no faith, because as one becomes a part of Scientology and studies it, uh, one finds that he has a greater understanding of himself, a greater feeling for others, and then he wants to help other people. And I think that's why we've been able to take 100,000 people off of drugs. Again, we have a—have a very uh, an existing technology that deals with drug addiction and drug problems, and we've been able to deal with that. We've also—I've got another—another hot potato for you: what is uh, Scientology's attitude on homosexuality? Earlier in the day, uh, Reverend, our um, Surgeon General uh, said that lesbians should be allowed to join the Girl Scouts; that was a follow-on to her earlier remark that homosexuals ought to be able to join the Boy Scouts. What is Scientology's attitude?

Well, we don't tell people what their sexual preferences should be; it's—it's an individual's uh, choice. So uh, we don't come out and say, "Well, it's got to be this way; it's got to be that way."

Well, then you're almost the Libertarians of religion, aren't you?

I guess we are, in a way. Um, you know, we certainly—we certainly don't—don't get into dogmatic things. You know, what is important is the spiritual side of the individual and his spiritual development and growth, and uh, he has to look at those things that prevent him from achieving it, you know. And of course, in a society where drugs is a problem, um, we deal a lot with that uh, just on terms of handling that socially. We deal with the—the vast devastation that has occurred in education in the—in America.

Should drugs be legalized, Reverend?

I don't—I don't know. I don't think—here's my problem with it: uh, you know, when somebody drives down a street and he's on a drug and he crashes into your car and does a hit-and-run collision, he gets out and says, "Well, I'm sorry, I killed your family," and so forth, but, "you know, I have a right to take my drugs." I don't think you can put people in uh, into vehicles and—you know, flying airplanes and driving cars and trains and everything else who are on drugs.

All right. Well, for the purpose of this discussion, I'm going to have to uh, take a position that I don't necessarily believe in, but why wouldn't we treat drugs—legalized—as we treat alcohol? In other words, uh, alcohol is out there, and it's a big problem, um, but you can't drive legally under the influence of alcohol. Why wouldn't legalized drugs be roughly the same?

Well, because you know that—that's the big—that's the big promotional push by the psychiatrists who love to put people on drugs, saying, "Oh, yeah, hey, listen, it's great," you know, and they call them "recreational drugs" out here.

That's right.

Uh, I think that's insane. I think that the problem is that—look at how many thousands of deaths are created by alcoholism in America, and for them to say, "Well, let's just give people drugs now and go full blast with that"—what they're saying is, "So let's kill a few thousand more; what the heck." Uh, you know, it works with alcohol; add another piece to that devastation, right? But the main argument appears to be—our jails are full; we now have just short of 1 million people in jail in America; about 60% of them are in there on drug-related offenses. America, Reverend, is falling apart.

It's a very good point you bring up, Art. There's 750,000 prisoners in America, by the way, the highest per capita of any in the world. We put more people in prison than anyone else.

Actually—actually—actually, Reverend, the late figures are n—over 900,000; that's as of tonight.

Wow.

Well, okay, I'm—I'm probably two years behind you, and—which is a horrendous—horrendous point. Let me bring out a couple points on that: in California, it's 44% of the people who go to prison are uh, being put in there for drug and drug-related crimes. I don't think that—see, I don't think you have to criminalize it that way. I think what you have to do is offer workable programs that show that you can take somebody off of drugs and stay off of drugs, and I think that that starts to change the society. I mean, we've taken 100,000 people or more off of drugs now. Uh, we have a recidivism rate that's one of the lowest that I know of in the world, by independent studies in Sweden and in uh, in Spain, for example. We're talking about 75 and 78% success rates.

That's quite something.

We're a 100% drug-free religion; that means it is possible to be drug-free. I think for people to say, "Let's just go back and—and—and give drugs to people and let him take it," is um—is devastation. I think that's what destroys a culture. And if you look at all the historical perspectives—cultures that went into heavy drugs did not survive. So—but I'm saying, with a 100% drug-free religion, I think that others can do it. And I grew up out in Utah originally, so I saw—you know, I saw the Mormons, and um, they lived lives where, again, they chose not to use drugs, and they've been a very strong and a very healthy kind of church out that way.

Reverend, we're going to have to hold it there; we're close to the top of the hour, and I've got something—I've got to do, so I'm going to ask you to hold on. When we come back, we'll also touch on the new um—the new syndrome, the Gulf War syndrome. So relax; we'll be back to you shortly. The Reverend uh, Heber Jentz is my guest; he's president of the uh, Church of Scientology.

All right. The one—the pet project that I know you have, and it was the only thing I knew about you before this interview, was um, with regard to government openness—the radiation tests the government has done, the above-ground testing they did uh, that I think may have affected you. You said you lived in Utah, and uh—and the testing—our government is doing generally—chemical, biological, and so forth.

Yeah, there's—there's a much larger picture which you bring up here; it's an important picture, especially uh, Las Vegas, Nevada, or anyone in the states, because everyone in the states was hit by atomic fallout. Now, there's two—two points I want to bring up. I mean, I grew up in Utah, and so I was a recipient of radiation fallout when I was 15 years of age. I almost died of radiation burns, which the government chose not to tell the people out there—correct—that uh, they were recipients of heavy fallout. And for them to say now that, "Well, we just didn't know"—

It was doing; we were trying to find out, is absolutely insane. You know, I have to characterize it almost humorously, but it's just insane because, reading documents from 1946, top secret—they knew what they were doing. They knew that it would create problems; they knew that. I mean, I was trained in the Army in handling nuclear casualties, so I know the extent of what it can do to an individual. Yes, I was uh, given similar training in the Air Force; I was a medic, so I know what you went through.

Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, this is something which um, I I think people have to look at. So I saw, you know, I saw an incredible amount of devastation out there. I saw uh, lives being just uh, destroyed, and I have lost a lot of friends in Utah who died unfortunately at a very young age. And again, we weren't told what they were doing; we didn't know the level of destruction that was occurring at the time. Along with that, at the same time, people don't realize that there was also this problem, which was that the government was also involved in biological weapons, chemical weapons, and experimenting vastly on the American public, where a lot of people died.

Yes. Did you see the recent uh, theatrical version—you probably missed it—of *The Stand*? I don't think I saw Stephen King's *The Stand*. Well, uh, the um, the scenario in *The Stand* is that some sort of biological something awful gets loose and virtually kills about 99% of the world's population, and um, that the story went on from there. It's not important. The question is um, what do you think AIDS is?

Well, you know, I get that question all along. Let me just say, you know, that is such a devastating question, and it's such a devastating disease um, but it seems to be so sophisticated that one has to wonder about it. Let me just say that when we were doing a bunch of work uh, on the on the issue of biological weapons, uh, a lady came to me about 1978, maybe as late as 79, but right around there, 78 and 79, and we'd been publishing some stuff at that time. She walked in; she said that her husband had been um, a person working at uh, Edgewood, Maryland, where a lot of this stuff went on, and she said that he died of his entire uh, immune deficiency system breaking down; that he had worked on so many different uh, different biological weapons and taken so many different uh, types of antidotes for it that his body had just completely deteriorated and had no longer any defense systems. That's AIDS; that's AIDS to me, and I heard that back in uh, before I'd ever heard of AIDS, by the way. And she was trying to get the government to uh, give her restitution for his death, and they just said it was CH related.

Yeah, well, that's interesting. I never saw that lady again, but it has always stuck in my mind. Where did it come from? And that one little anecdote, that one remembrance has bothered me. On top of that, when I have seen the CIA in the 50s developing special biological weapons which would kill ethnic minorities, as they did with black children using a whooping cough virus in the 50s down in Fort Detrick, Florida—we went through 10,000 documents the CIA gave us under the Freedom of Information Act and slowly, meticulously pieced together a mosaic of horror uh, where the CIA had run this operation and killed—well, 12 kids died, 11 were black, 400 came down with it. It was a it was a really major epidemic, but it was engineered by CIA agents going down there to see if they could develop biological weapons which would attack certain groups and certain minorities. Now we both know that if you allow that to happen, that um, a lot of destruction can occur, and also, if allowing that to happen, and the fact that it occurred that long ago in the 50s, they have continued to develop uh, weapons of magnitude. Where are they now? And is—I mean, the question does have to be asked, and I think that again, under the Freedom of Information Act, folks want to know: Is AIDS a biologic that got loose?

That's right. And if it is, then you could imagine the government not wanting anyone to know uh, what that is. Well, of course, it it sounds like you lean toward that view. Well, I I'm terribly worried about it because uh, I don't have an exact document on it, but you know, when I when I see these documents of of disease after disease and and targeting uh, ethnic minorities in America for decimation uh, and developing the weapons and spending who knows hundreds of millions of dollars to do it, it it bothers me. I have a a letter here from January 1, 1990, from uh, Channel 9, KUSA um, up in Denver to a couple of our folks, and he writes at the end of this something which really disturbs me. This is 1990, by the way, in case you're interested. "In the current defense department research in this field is the chemical biological warfare. I'm enclosing an extra copy of the environmental impact statement for the Army biological defense program. The Army is spending more than $100 million a year to experiment with and even to genetically alter some of the most dangerous pathogens known, everything from encephalitis to snake toxin," and he goes on. And one has to know, in other words, I am I am deeply grateful to what Helen L. has done at the Department of Energy level to expose the past issues of radiation and what had occurred in the experimentation, much of which still has to be released and has not been released. What I'm terrified about is that the—I'm terrified, but deeply concerned about—is the chemical and biologics that also were being released in those years, and the attention has not yet gone onto really releasing the information on that level. That has to happen.

What happened in San Francisco? There was a big uh, some sort of test I recall in San Francisco. Yeah, the what they did in San Francisco, and they did it in some other places, was they uh, they took some uh, pathogenic um, type of germs and uh, they said, well, at first they said, well, it's just harmless; it's not going to harm anybody, and they took ships off off the coast there and they ran a fog of these germs and released them in the wind so that they drifted over through the bay and then throughout the San Francisco area. They had these little um, receptor points that they had placed—not telling the people what they're doing, by the way—where they could pick up the germs and they could figure out how fast they traveled, at what intensities and so forth. It was found out later that those those pathogens that they released uh, caused uh, people with empyema and people who had respiratory problems; they documented a death in that particular case. We don't know how many other people died with it, but that was an experiment done in San Francisco. Then you go to the other coast, and there in uh, in Georgia, for example, um, they were releasing hundreds of millions of mosquitoes, and they selected uh, an area where it was a black um, uh, or African-American uh, housing area which hit these folks, and then when we exposed that information, went back and folks wrote in and told us about a number of diseases that had happened: stillborn uh, babies which had occurred because of that; it just went on and on and on. Well, the point simply being that uh, it was in Savannah, for example. You know, these people were talking about um, mysterious diseases, death from unknown causes in the neighborhood and so on and um, uh, unknown diseases; infants died; 24 years later, people are having heart trouble uh, caused by mosquito-induced problems; they didn't tell these people what they were doing; they didn't tell them they were releasing it. Again, here's the government experimenting on the public; it's it's Maoism.

I take it that Scientology is able to address a lot of the ills that have been perpetrated in those uh, in those ways. Well, we've run into it, especially I think in terms of uh, what happened in Vietnam: Agent Orange, for example, with dioxin; now they use it in malathion out here in California and spray everybody with that, and I again, what we find is respiratory effects; my son almost died because they were spraying with malathion out here a few years ago, and I went over here to Presbyterian Hospital, Children's Hospital, and talked to one of the doctors there, and he said they always had a a rise in respiratory problems with children, with people of all ages, whenever that stuff was sprayed, but they just go ahead and do it. We found, yes, we started addressing the problem uh, with dioxin, for example, the the Agent Orange. We're going to pause here at the top of the hour for some news, and we'll be right back. Now, once again, the Reverend J.Y., are you there, sir?

Yes, sir, I am. Mar—I remember you were just closing off with your concern about potential biologics in the um—

Well, the Gulf War. Yes, I have in front of me um, just interesting three documents from the CIA, um, top secret classification. Let me just read you two or three of these little paragraphs because it sort of leads to what you were just talking about at the break. Here's one; it's dated 9 November 1962; it's a date initiated MKUltra, 1958. It says, "Cutouts for drugs and other materials and then development and testing of antimaterial systems, biological hydrogen systems, personnel marking systems, and biological weapon harassment systems. Provides facility for large-scale production of microorganisms. Provides general advisory and developmental services in the biological weapon area." And that same project, sub-project 78, dated 28th September '57, it says, "Purpose: To provide complete microbiological support ranging from research, establishing production capabilities to meet Technical Services Division special requirements; to provide special materials as well as general advisory and system developmental service in connection with the overall microbiological and biological program. Provides cover and access cutout for special jobs." And here's a paragraph; it's—this is—this last one is is uh, marked "Warning Notice: Defense intelligence source and methods involved. Eyes Only. Top Secret." It says, "U.A.," and it's all blanked out. You know, people who are not familiar with it, they black out a lot of sections. "Develops, evaluates, and maintains a variety of biological materials suitable for covert application. Since some of these materials have nothing to do with the area of manipulating human behavior, we are planning to continue our relationship with [blank] using our normal contractual mechanism." All I'm saying is that these documents, which uh, are startling and devastating in their intent and in some of the description, show that there has been a foundation for this type of activity for some time. The closest um, present-time concern is the attempt to create uh, biological weapons or to genetically alter uh, various uh, types of germs and so forth for germ warfare, with the the whole concept, for example, the National Institute of Mental Health, headed up by psychiatrist Frederick Goodwin, who has been promoting the idea of um, genetically altering uh, African-Americans as quote "his solution" to quote "crime," and uh, that takes us into a whole kind of *Clockwork Orange* um, modern um, madness sort of thing that I I think we really have to pay attention to, have to look at. I don't want to make everyone afraid of all this; I just say that an informed public is is a public that can take action on these sort of things, and so I think what we're saying is: Here's the information; other people should hop on the line, use the Freedom of Information Act, dig out this sort of thing, and do something about, you know, what is happening in that area.

Interesting. Interesting. You should mention *Clockwork Orange*; we almost have a *Clockwork Orange* in some parts of the country right now in our inner cities, and uh, one has to wonder, Reverend, where do you think it's going? Are we headed toward some form of anarchy or rebellion?

Well, I think I think unless we do something about the drug problems and about the uh, moral problems in this country, which is really going to have to be uh, borne by the churches because uh, government paying billions of dollars just to keep people on drugs or give them new drugs to replace the old drugs—unless we address that problem and start getting people off of it, we are going to have some problems. And um, but you know, we've been down there in uh, in Compton since the riots, for example. We've taken a thousand people through uh, Study Technology Program implemented by or created by Mr. Hubbard to deal with educational problems. We've gotten kids out of gangs; we've gotten people off the streets who were homeless who are now working; we've been able to change people's grade levels two and three levels with 25 hours of address. I say that those types of things, those types of capabilities uh, have to be spelled out in other cities; this was just done by churches and contributions by corporations and so forth; it wasn't done by the state; it wasn't done by the city. This is just a bunch of ministers and some Scientology ministers of different faiths getting together, using the technology of how to study and dealing with the issues and also dealing with drugs. There are solutions, but they have to be implemented, and uh, if not, yes, you're going to have a deterioration.

All right. Well, sounds good. El—why do people write books like L. Ron Hubbard, *Messiah or Madman*?

Well, I think because you you know, you have people who um, have had certain animosities. You're always going to have somebody who is not going to agree with our stance on um, on drugs, people who are not going to agree with um, uh, the fact that we expose this type of thing that we discussed over the last hour; I think that there's always going to be critics uh, who come out with an attack on that, as has has has occurred, you know, since day one. We have very assiduously uh, gone in and examined and found a lot of psychiatrists involved in uh, the assault of the American people; they find no problem with um, uh, being involved in mind control experiments, giving people drugs against their will.

All right. Uh, here's one more hardball question, then I want to get the lines open. Now, this comes uh, in a fact from Rick in Denver who asks—asks about the money. These people, he says, are worth billions; are you worth billions, Reverend?

No, but I always—no, we're not. But—I would say that Scientology is priceless. And if Scientology is worth money, yes, we have—as an organization—we've grown tremendously, but people contribute to Scientology; we're not dependent on government; we all pay our taxes uh, like anybody else and any other church. And in fact, our people tend to become more affluent once they join Scientology, and therefore they contribute more to the tax base. Also, Scientology offers a lot of free services, and this was again assiduously examined by the Internal Revenue Service, and uh, the fellow in Denver just isn't up to speed on where we are. So you don't apologize for affluence?

I don't apologize for affluence because what we've done is we've done so much to—to move into the communities, assist the communities; we've done a tremendous amount to to deal with handling drugs. As interesting—I talked to a guy who was a cocaine addict uh, here in Los Angeles. He said, "Look, when I was an addict," he said, "I did an average of five petty crimes a day just to support the, you know, steal a radio from a car, somebody's home, take something," and so forth. Yes. And uh, he said, "You know, that's the average that I could see for addicts." Well, right or wrong, let's just say we take a thousand people off of drugs, and um, we've taken hardened addicts off of drugs; that's 5,000 crimes a day, that's 35,000 crimes a week.

Sure is. Or it's, you know, it runs close to uh, you know, a million crimes in a year. Whatever the point simply being that there is a way to turn this thing around, and we can do something about it. So um, no, Scientology uses its capabilities to help other people, and and by the way, can I give a number if they want more information?

Of course.

It's 1-800-334-5433. I'll give it again; it's—it's 1-800 number 334-5433. If they want more information about Scientology or or Dianetics, they can call those numbers.

All right. Um, fine. Uh, what I would like to do now is open my telephone lines; they are all ringing for you, so let's find out what is on everybody's mind out there. Okay. Tighten your seatbelt; you never know. Okay. All right. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air with the Reverend J.

Hello. Yes, I'd like to ask the Reverend here a few questions.

All right. Go ahead.

Um, considering um, afterlife, as you say, when you die that you'll be brought back, um, how does that seem to work? There—you don't actually believe in actual heaven or how—or they'll just be brought back to Earth or something?

Well, you're already on Earth; um, I don't think you're going to go away. U—I think you just sort of come back here; I think that the heaven and hell depends upon how the individual uh, you know, uh, lives his life. Again, I think it's largely up to uh, the individual; um, I think that there is evil, but I think the evil uh, is largely in the reactive mind, and uh, here's a here's a datum that that is interesting, and that is that we hold that man is basically good; he may act badly, but he's basically good. So I know this sort of takes me away from some of the Western tradition which says, you know, man uh, has a lot of evil in him, or he is he is evil, in fact. I had somebody in Germany say that uh, "Well, you can't be a religion unless you believe man is completely evil." Well, I don't know what religion that is, but I tell you what: I I think a man is basically good; he acts badly at times, but he is basically good, and that is another—you come back uh, you know, uh, I think it's each individual has his own understanding of what his life is like or what his life might have been like before, but that whole concept is certainly not new to this world; it is of course something old and established in the Eastern traditions, but not so popular, well known in the Western tradition.

All right, caller.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much for the call, and uh, let's go to our first-time caller line; you're on the air with Reverend J.Y.

Hello.

Where are you calling from, please?

Yeah, to K—K—are you on a cellular?

Well, we lost him. I think that was a cellular caller. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air with Reverend J.Y. Where are you calling from, please?

Phoenix.

Phoenix, KFYI.

Yes, sir. Yes, I like to know—I like to know the opinion um, on faith healing.

Faith healing. That's a good question. Well, you know, I um, I've seen uh, faith healing work uh, tremendously. I've seen people do it; um, it is something which exists in the society, and it's something which uh, should not be uh, should not be put down. And religions do it. I've uh, experienced and watched that sort of thing uh, in Utah when I grew up. Are there power—are there people uh, Reverend, with the power to heal uh, with their hands or with some power that comes from within?

I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen; uh, the difference with Scientology being that we help the individual to help himself so that it isn't uh, it isn't just put in the in the control of another individual. But yes, I've seen people do healing; tremendous uh, things happen uh, um, I thought as a kid out there in Utah, they believe in the laying on of hands, that sort of thing. I think uh, again, the difference being that with Scientology, we have an exact technology which helps on the psychosomatic side to help the individual become more able, more well uh, more healthy; but definitely the laying on of hands and and faith healing is something which has existed in the society for centuries, and it's a phenomenon which is real and does occur.

All right. On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Reverend J.

Oh, yes. Uh, Reverend uh, KUSA, Denver. Hi, Re—hello, Reverend. About uh, 15 years ago, so—so I lived in San Francisco, and uh, someone was trying to encourage me to go to uh, a seminar, training, EST, which I refused to do. I I kind of uh, felt very much uh, that this was not entirely ethical or helpful, and at that time I was told by this particular member of EST uh, that EST was a uh, an adversary, an opponent, an opponent of Scientology. And I'd like you, if you would, to explain that.

All right. Thank you. Uh, EST, out of the 60s. Good—good question. Um, I had the opportunity uh, to do a show with Larry King Live last December, and that question was raised by um, um, Harry Rosenberg, as a matter of fact, who is the uh, brother of uh, Werner Erhard. Um, Erhard admits years ago that he had um, stolen a good deal of Scientology from its early days, and that it was what he used in some form or another to um, build his empire, and he admits that it was um, something that gave him a great deal of understanding about the mind and so forth, and then he uh, went on to create what became EST, and with some sort of other things thrown in. My point simply being that uh, any animosity which Mr. Erhard has, and he certainly has expressed it, as he did on the show uh, against myself and the church in December, is based on the fact that he has some law enforcement problems, and um, he does have some problems with having um, not told his people uh, truthfully where he got this information that has been somewhat successful, but it's a very very small part that he had of Scientology; it certainly was not uh, anywhere near what Scientology really is. And of course, people who uh, want real Scientology come to the churches, not to—not to EST. And finally, the point that he brought up was that somehow he was having problems uh, coming back into America, and as I indicated to his brother when I spoke with him, uh, he has some outstanding money that he owes to the Internal Revenue Service; um, as certainly the 60 Minutes show, and I've seen other affidavits of documents showing that his sexual assaults on his own children uh, were rather extensive, and um, I would imagine still punishable by law. So that's Mr. Erhard's problem; it's unfortunate that he lived that kind of a life, but last time I heard he was in Moscow, and I don't know where he is now, in present time. But Scientology is Scientology, and it is U—something which works 100% when it's applied properly, and that's why it is a technology. Altering it makes it less effective, and then it's not Scientology.

All right. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air with Reverend J.Y. Or you would have been on the Wild Card line; you are on the air with Reverend J. Where are you calling from, please?

Uh, San—San Diego.

San Diego. All right. Yes, Reverend. Um, it really—it seems like quite an attack on on this gentleman from EST. I have no particular attachment or or feeling there; just seems like a great Adam and attack, but my question is this: Um, you seem to follow uh, great causes, sort of—sort of an all-around church; you rally on causes that most people could get attached to—the the anti-AMA kind of a thing, and the government chemical kind of a thing. Uh, would you discuss any affiliation uh, present or past, and how you may have been affiliated or worked with uh, Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, known as the Moonies, and uh, any charges of fraud uh, that were charged against you for mind manipulation of people? Thank you. I'll take the—

All right. All right. Thank you. Uh, affiliations with uh, R. Moon? Yes. Uh, I met Reverend Moon; I I think that U—you know, he he is a person who um, uh, has his concept of religion, and in America he has a right to express that religion. I know some of his people; the issues that I've worked with Reverend Moon on have been uh—or his people have been—the concerns for uh, human rights issues, people who've been kidnapped and held against their will and so forth; um, and in fact, the head of the U—criminal association networks security system is now doing seven years for kidnapping somebody—somebody in Washington, D.C.—uh, and his associate is um, standing trial in the next four or five days for that type of thing. Look, um, I think that again, in America, you have a right to believe as you want to believe; the Unification Church has a right to believe as it wants to believe; people have a right to join that. Now, in terms of this mind—mind manipulation stuff, well, um, that whole issue has been invalidated judicially in the courts extensively. In fact, the American Psychological Association uh, and um, American Sociological Association have come down and condemned the main proponents of that theory as being unscientific, and as I say, three court decisions have also indicated that uh, there isn't anything to that. If you're going to talk about mind manipulation being uh, people who uh, believe in something or they follow a particular leader or something like that—Scientology itself believes that you make up your own mind; you can read a book, and you can make up your own mind as to whether or not it's something you want to be involved in or not be involved in. And if you—in Scientology—Reverend, are you there?

Yes, I'm here.

Okay. I'm going to jump right back into the uh, telephone lines if that's all right with you.

Sure. Let's go. Let's see what's out there. Hi. Uh, on the Wild Card line, you're on the air with Reverend J.Y.

Yeah, my question is uh—

All right, you're hard to hear, sir. Get close to the phone and speak up.

Oh, my question is uh, does—do you believe in the fear of God, and does—they pray, who they pray to, and why do they pray?

All right. Thank you. Uh, do you believe in the fear of God, Reverend?

Well, he's asking me a personal question on that. I uh, I don't think one has to fear uh, fear God. I think that uh, if one is living a life of of of service and assistance to mankind, I don't think there is a fear, and um, again, that's my own personal feeling, by the way. That's my hometown; that's where I was born was in Salt Lake City, Utah. And um, no, I think that again, we leave it up to the individual what he thinks about U—God. We don't have a dogma on it; it's up to the person to make his own discovery, his own feeling about it. Again, as I say, since we have people of all religions, we do believe in the Supreme Being; my personal feeling is if you're living a living a good life and you're helping people and you're uh, definitely um, uh, positive in what you're doing and helping others, I don't think you have to have a fear.

All right. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air.

Hello.

Talking about cancer or AIDS and a biological warfare.

That's correct.

Yes. And things of that nature. I was wondering, had he done any research into possible solutions for those type of problems?

All right. Uh, I really haven't personally, uh, though I know that um, you know, folks are sending me stuff all the time, and I can't, you know, I can't vouch for it because I haven't um, you know, I don't have somebody who is really uh, sat down and worked it out. I know that there are people out there talking about therapies for it; I know they're talking about oxygenation and hydrogenation uh, therapies and stuff like that. What about Dianetics principles; would they affect something like that?

You know, the point is, Dianetics works on on the mind, and the issue of the mind, but if a person is ill and he has a physical illness, he goes to a doctor to deal with that. We deal with—Dianetics deals with psychosomatic illnesses, and uh, a person who is physically ill would have to see a doctor. And what—what—what percentages, Reverend, of the illnesses that are out there do you uh—would you guess are psychosomatic?

Well, I've seen literature saying that about 60% to 65% of the illnesses out there are—

Psychosomatic. So that's quite an area, you see, explains your placebo effect. It certainly does. On the uh, Wild Card line, you're on the air with Reverend JY. Hello. Where are you coming from, please?

Hey, this is Sean from San Diego. Told you about the uh, doomsday conspiracy book.

Well, hey, Reverend, yeah. Um, you guys are crooks. What's that? You guys are crooks. You take money from people and you take all these people's livelihood. I have a friend that was in it; he lost everything. He lost his business because you guys asked for money, all this money, and I don't, I don't see how you guys can call yourselves a religion. You don't believe in a real God; you believe in um, psychosis. What's, what's your religion?

I'm non-denominational, but I believe that Jesus, you know, there's a Jesus, that he died on the cross and that he's going to come back.

Well, well, God bless you, and I'll tell you that, you know, in America a person has a right to believe what he wants to believe, and I defended that death, your right to have your religion.

Yeah, and what you believe it, it… yeah, I believe that you guys can believe what you want, but why take everybody's money? Why not preach it, but then let them have what they have?

Well, let me just uh, say this. I mean, first of all, there are eight million members, and we've done some studies, which is um, information shows on what is Scientology, that people tend to make more money in Scientology. You're giving me an unnamed person, an unnamed case. I'm not sure uh, what that situation is about or whether it exists or not, but people do become more capable in Scientology, and they tend to earn more money. Uh, the other thing is I think it's kind of like uh, Tom Sniderman said to me, he said, you know, it's interesting, he said the people who complain about uh, contributions to Scientology are generally not in Scientology. It is true. It is true. It really is true. Um, uh, but uh, there is a lot of controversy uh, Reverend, about um, the financial dealings of Scientology and what it requires of its members. And what does it require?

Well, it requires that an individual uh, you know, he can study Scientology; he can certainly come in and he can um, there are Services which are not, they don't cost anything. There are fixed donations for certain studies and for counseling in Scientology, and as I say, the IRS looked at that very, very strongly, very clearly uh, with the most uh, extensive examination of it, and by the way, found out that other churches do the same thing. They have fixed donations; the Mormon Church does, the um, Catholic Church does, the uh, Jewish synagogues do, and so forth, and so it's not unusual. Uh, we do comport with the same type of situation others do, but I think the thing about Scientology is read it, study it, make up your own mind. It isn't even what I say what it is. I found it extremely helpful, but again, make up your own mind is is the main maximum. I mean, Mr. Hubbard said, what's true for you is true for you, and be willing to observe What You observe. So it's on your own self-determinism, your own choice. You take a look at it, make up your own mind, and um, yes, Scientology does cost. We have to pay for lights and for gasoline and for rent like anybody else, and people contribute to the church along that line, and other churches survive the same way. But you don't force anybody to; that's the key.

No. Uhuh. It's up to individual want to do it; it's up to him. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air with Reverend Jet. Hello. Where are you calling from, please?

K Country, this is Clinton, all right, up in Seattle. I have a question for you, and it's about regarding your founder, Alon H. Now um, I remember reading an interview with um, L. Ron Hubbard and L. Ron Carter saying that L. Ron Hubbard had a bet that he could start a religion, and sure enough, he started Scientology.

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because um, that case is a case that U, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. People who have uh, said some negative things about Scientology over the years have sort of said that that was the situation. Um, it's interesting, the guy who who said that was not L. Ron Hubbard, but it was a science fiction writer, and um, which is L. Ron H… no, no, not him. It was at a, it was a, it was a fellow who was one of his contemporaries who was doing that sort of thing um, at a party in 1939, and we have the affidavits from that which was presented in a court in Germany that made the same assertion, and uh, the people who uh, made that assertion, by the way, lost it in court and had to pay the church that money because it was proven that Mr. never did say that. Why, by way, between Glen Carter and L. Ron Hubbard that verify it… L. Ron Hubbard had actually said that that they made a bet, all three of them.

Well, I, I tell you, I've seen the affidavits on this thing by the people who were at that party, and that is not what occurred, and uh, Mr. Hubbard, by the way, um, this religion is something which has helped millions and millions of people, and the other thing is when Mr. Hubbard passed away, he gave all the money to the church, his entire estate. So anyone who makes that sort of charge is someone who um, must… but I'll tell you, proven already in the course, you know, it was, it was not any charges; it was just stating the fact that um, L. Ron Carter and L. Ron De Camp said that they had had sat down over, you know, a couple pints or whatever, and they were discussing religion and everything else and, you know, science fiction writing, and that they had um, L. Ron Hubbard had spoken up and said, you know, I bet you I can start a religion.

All right, all right. That's an absolute lie, as you know, and I have the documentation on it. I'd be very happy… AR, I'll send it to you because obviously this fellow's not going to let go of his of his assertions, and by the way, if you have such a thing signed as an affidavit from L. Ron De Camp, I'd like to see it because I have not seen such a document, but I have seen other affidavits of people who were at that particular party, and Mr. Hubbard was not the person who originated that; it was somebody else, and we shall return. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air with Reverend Jen. Hello.

Hi, good morning, AR. This is Denise, and would you talk…

Hi, Denise.

Hi. Um, first of all, Art, I'd like to ask you, are you an adherent to Scientology?

No, I am not.

Okay. And then I have um, two questions for the Reverend. Number one is um, who does he say that Jesus Christ is historically… all right.

Well, Jesus Christ, we, we believe he is the Son of God, and that uh, we believe that he had a three-fold plan for man, which is in the Bible, and that is that um, man should seek for health, for happiness, and for immortality, and we agree with those goals as well.

Okay. And the second question I had then, if, do you point to him as as one of the ascended masters or one of the prophets or great teachers?

Well, that's interesting. When you say ascended masters and Prophets and great teachers, you just covered three other religions.

Right. Exactly.

Yeah, I kind of did, but that was good.

Well, I just wondered what you do, what you do with the statement that Jesus made that he is the way and that no man comes to God but by him um, and how you get around so many of the different, I mean, dogmatic teachings of the Bible if if you don't kneel to Jesus Christ as Lord, such as, I mean, you know, I heard speak of homosexuality, and so it's my view isn't politically correct; it's biblically correct, and how do you deal with that?

All right, thank you.

Well, I, I, I, there's five questions there, but let me just say that uh, again, we leave it up to the individual what he uh, believes in in terms of the Supreme Being, and he makes his own choice, and uh, again, morality is something which um, uh, is up to the individual; it's not something that you can legislate; it's something which an individual has to uh, place upon himself, and certainly Society can say, well, here, there are certain moral… here's the, here's the strange thing in California, here in Los Angeles, the school board has ruled that a kid can bring a gun to school only three times; bring a Bible and you're out. And I think that, and this is the ane, I think that it's time for some morality to go back into schools. We've turned it over to the psychiatrists; they're a disaster, and I think the fact that it's time for people to have some morals, but again, you can't enforce it, and Mr. Herbert wrote, by the way, a non-religious moral code which um, has basic principles of morals and and by the way, that's had millions of copies of that around the world, translated in a lot of different languages. It's really become, I think, one of the most popular Works um, of um, of his writings.

All right, Reverend, uh, let's keep moving; not a lot of time but a lot of calls uh, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Reverend Jen. Where are you coming from, please?

Hello.

There. Going once. Going twice. Three times. Gone. And on the first-time caller line, you're on the air.

Hello.

Uh, yeah, that's Ken calling from San Diego.

Hi, Ken.

Uh, I had a question for the Reverend. I was wondering if he was um, familiar with uh, a book that came on the scene right around the the same time as uh, uh, Dianetics. It's uh, a work called the UR Rancha book.

Oh, yes. Ur Rancha. All right. Ur Rancha. Reverend, Ur Rancha?

No, I'm not familiar with it.

Oh, really? Um, I've heard that name, but I couldn't tell you that I know that much about it. I just know that uh, Dianetics, when it came out, 1950, went on the bestseller lists, and uh, it was um, there for I think about 26, 28 weeks and has hit the best-seller lists a number of times since 1950, and uh, as a matter of fact, there are now 400 new Dianetics groups in America, started a whole new thing started since January of this year. Um, is that book, Yanch uh, um, still current bestseller type or what?

No, it is not. Caller is off the line now. Uh, Reverend, can a person get the benefits of Scientology by reading Dianetics without necessarily going through the formal regimen uh, in the church?

Sure. There. I, I meet people all over the world who um, have been using Dianetics for years and years and use it in their lives; they've never stepped inside of a church. Uh, sure, a person can pick up Dianetics, learn how to do it, and um, they can, they can apply it to U themselves and to others, and they may never walk into a church. U, that's quite, to me that's uh, quite possible, since as I say, there are about 17 million copies of Dianetics out there, and that's just individual copies; it doesn't take into consideration the number of times a book would passed through the hands of uh, different people. I think I figure a book has about a six-person uh, it goes through about six person's hand in a lifetime of a book. I will say this, uh, Scientology has a very tenacious mailing Department because I had a very good friend who was a Scientologist, and uh, he did me the perhaps dubious favor of putting me on a list, and um, I think that I received probably $150 or $200 worth of literature over the over several years uh, from Scientology. They were um, uh, doggedly, just about every week, two or three times, I would receive something.

Well, you know, it's, it's interesting because I, I had heard about Scientology back in 1960 when I was in the service in um, Fort Meade, Maryland, out near Washington, D.C., and uh, I had started reading a little bit about it at that time, and I said, well, look, can you, you know, can you put me on a mailing list? So they put me on a mailing list, and uh, but why I was really interested in it over the years, and I would every time I moved, I would write to the church out there and say, I've moved, please send forward this information, and they did it for several years, and as a result of that, I came into Scientology after I'd looked at so many other things. So I was, I was… I'm one of the guys that's really happy that they kept me on a mailing list.

I see. Um, well, I think they finally lost me when I moved someplace. I see. On the Wild Card line, you're on the air with the Reverend Jet. Hello.

Yes, Reverend.

Yes. Wi, Kansas, here. Hi.

Um, question for you. There's been movements uh, you know, in the past 100 years, Theosophy Society uh, uh, different groups that have put together uh, Eastern religions with either Western science or what have you, and there's tons of interpretations like the gentleman called it about the Urantia book and and what have you, but the traditional religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity have all had uh, Traditions that um, have led people to be what you would call realized or Saints or whatever. Will Scientology produce uh, people of that stature whose writings will endure for thousands or hundreds of years, and and um, um, does it lead to a realization or does it is it just more of a social and comfort uh, fitting into Western Society? And also, do you believe in evolution or do you believe man was primordially perfect and uh, or do you believe he's evolving?

All right. Well, you gave me a bunch of questions. Let me just say that and and listen, those, those are good questions, especially uh, you know, the enlightenment point. Uh, in Scientology, we believe that man can be enlightened. We talk about a state of being which we call Clear, or an individual um, no longer has that reactive mind that we're talking about; that would be equivalent to uh, what uh, Gama Buddha was talking about, the state of Bodhi, um, where one is aware of himself as a spiritual being; he's aware of his environment; he has a great deal more uh, health; he has u a great deal more intention; he has ability to achieve his goals and so forth, and again, he realizes his spiritual nature. So yes, in Scientology, that concept of Clear uh, and in in Dianetics is the first time that concept came up um, is definitely a part of it. In terms of concept of evolution, no, I, I don't know that, you know, evolution is is such a thing; there isn't really, I got to say, scientific evidence to show it because all those little missing links and the number of um, the number of mathematical capabilities to uh, have such a thing happen, I think is pretty, pretty far out. The other thing I always find interesting is where the scientists say that um, uh, you know, a bunch of molecules got together and said, Hey, listen, what do you think, Harry? Let's just become uh, some genetic material and uh, we'll grow into something.

Yes. Well, I, you know, I don't buy that. I think the fact that you just… where did the molecules come from, and when did they decide to become genetically whatever, whatever, whatever? No, there seems to be an interesting plan about life, and um, I just don't believe it's Evolution. I don't believe in Darwin, and uh, I know that probably makes some folks unhappy out there, but um, no, I believe that you can understand what life is all about through Scientology, but you can make up your own mind about it. It is a religion; it does address you as a spiritual being, and again, I… that number is 1-800-334-5433. People want to know about it. There have been a number of other religions in the past; um, Buddhism has now uh, survived over 2,000 years. Uh, I think that Scientology will definitely go forward and that it will be here uh, very much 2,000 years from now, and we will work to see that it is as pure and uh, untainted and unchanged in its technical capabilities as it is today.

All right. Well, you're about to… Jerry Brown of talk radio here. Do you want to get that 800 number in one more time?

Sure. 1-800-334-5433. And I'm not the moon child.

All right. Well, it has been a pleasure interviewing you, and uh, I would like to have you back again sometime. We were able to T touch on just about every subject, so would you come back again?

Sure. I'd love to, Art. And listen, thanks to all your listeners out there; there some good questions, and I, I really enjoyed this. To the lines we go, and to talk radio, are you ready? On the Wild Card line, you're on the air.

Good morning.

Hi, Art. Uh, I think over Austin Kowsky at the last minute before he can keep that plea bargain agreement right up until the time the jury walks in with the verdict that that that might be right.

Yes. And I think he'll probably at the last minute switch over. I'm pretty sure he would take a six-month sentence versus maybe a hundred and some years in jail.

Well, I'm not sure, sir. I'm not sure that the offer remains open after they actually go to court. I think he could probably take the agreement up until they walk into court. Um, they said today on the news that he can keep it right up until the time the jury walks in with the verdict.

Wow. And he can go through the election process, get reelected, and uh, string this out clear up until the time uh, they walk in with the verdict.

Okay. But bear in mind uh, the prosecution does not have to continue to offer it or uh, consummate the deal um, at all at any moment. In other words, uh, once they're in court, if it began to go the prosecution's way and Rosy saw that and came to him for the deal, they might tell him to go jump in a lake.

Well, the only problem is then Canarino runs that operation, and and I, I just don't have any faith in them at this time. One other thing is rather interesting. Uh, I see on the a world report of some kind, I forgot the name of it today, I was reading about it that they put Egypt and Mexico is one of the major comp countries that is expected disintegrate in the next uh, few years. I wonder if any preparation is being made by this country to handle influx of refugees is going to come with their overpopulation running across our borders when that country does start to disintegrate. Can't even handle the ones coming across now.

Well, I think they're going to have to get their population under control. We can't be the drain for the world's population problem, and I think that's Mexico's population. I was in Mozambique, in Rhodesia, and uh, I studied the population of Red China when it collapsed; it had the same ratio of population that El Salvador had and Angola had and then Rhodesia had and now Mexico has. Once the 65, 67% of the population is less than 18 years of age, the country starts to disintegrate quite rapidly, and that's the point that Mexico is at now. It had 27 million people in 1949; it has 90 million today, 65% less than 17 years of age, and the entire population will double in 14 years.

Wow. All right. I appreciate your call, sir. I've got to run. Thank you uh, very much. But wow is my response. That's a a big population burden. There is no question about it, and uh, what'll happen, I think before it doubles again. On the toll-free line, you're on the air.

Hello.

Good evening, Art. This is Steve from KUS in Denver.

Hi, Steve.

Hey. Um, I hear you talk about how much the government's wasting and Congress spending a buck fifty for every buck. Let me tell you about another way I think we're wasting money. I just got off a four-month assignment of working for FEMA. Oh, doing… I was served as a Heine operator here in Denver for victims of the Northridge earthquake. Yes. Four months. I'm on the phone talking to about I'd say at least 120 people a day, taking their calls wanting to know where their check is and how they can get their assistance.

Sure. Sure.

Well, for the first month and a half, I'm talking to the truly needy, and for the next three and a half months, it's just people whose neighbors got checks and they're wanting to report damages and uh, and we as our inspectors went out to uh, look at these properties and uh, aside from uh, helping people get housed if they were rendered homeless, which is one, one thing which I think is legit, it, they were offering personal property grants, and um, if you had like damage to essential furnishings and major appliances and stuff… hey, look, you live on a fault line; you know what you're getting yourself into. Our inspectors go to a place, and this woman's like, yeah, my refrigerator is damaged. I take it you didn't tell people that on the phone. In other words, you live on a fault line; tough beans. Um, did a couple of people out of the thousands I've spoken to got really out of line with me, were blatantly greedy liars. Yeah, and I told him straight up, look, pal, you lived on a fault line; if you had any real damages, you can just tell to someone that gives a damn, and I'd hang up on him. But you know, we got inspectors going to houses where uh, I thought you FEMA guys, according to a lot of my callers, are the ones that are going to take over the U.S. in the middle of the night, some night and uh, turn us into a police state. Isn't that what you're all about?

Well, I'm what's called a local hire. FEMA set up a a center here in Denver, and they had their regular people come, which was pretty much semi-retired people. Yes, and they're truly at the level was on are good-hearted people who want to help out victims of disasters. So anything above the hierarchy in FEMA, I couldn't tell you anything about.

All right, sir. On that note, I'm going to have to leave you. Thank you very much for the call. North Korea. I'd be interested to know if this becomes a global thermonuclear war, would you stand outside and watch the fireball envelop you or would you seek shelter and try to live out a few more years? It would be an interesting question for your listeners as well. Thanks, Eric, in at KVI.

[Laughter]

Well, Eric, I would like to say that I would go out and throw my hands up and greet the fireball like a man, but in fact, Eric, I'd probably be out scratching at the ki-chi in my yard trying to see how far now I could get out quickly. It wouldn't be easy. We have ki here, and it's like uh, like trying to dig through rock, so uh, I'm sure the fireball would greet me with shovels full of dirt flying behind me. Here's another… hey, Art, consider this. More than a few Democrat apologists state the charges against Rostin Kowski couldn't be true. They point out that Danny Boy passed up his chance to convert an excess of a million dollars in campaign funds into personal funds. He could have… well, minus tax, of course, he could have done this uh, had he retired prior to '92. Since he passed this up, he obviously is not motivated by or interested in money. Horse stuff. The point is these people uh, that miss it; it's so obvious; it's silly. Take a look at just the activities he was caught doing, and it is easy to see it's more profitable for him to stay in Congress by staying in, not retiring. Danny retained the power and opportunity to steal far more than a poultry million and fatten his pension up as well. Is this a great country or what? Sincerely, Steven Burns. Thank you, Stephen, San Diego, and the mighty KOGO. All right, uh, back to the telephone lines, and on the Wild Card line, you're on the air.

Hello.

Good morning, Tin.

Hello. It's Martin calling you.

Hello, Martin. Where are you?

Oh, I'm still out here in Oregon.

Oregon. What's on your mind, Martin?

Um, actually, I wanted to address a a couple of important points there. This U, this thing about the congressman… yes, Rostin Kowski. What about… well, it's going on today with the congressman, which is uh, taking all these gifts and presents and stuff… M, it's a a common thing. What's happening today with the congressman when we have an office… the only point I want to make about this is that they're going back 20 years. You see, there is no statute of limitations. In other words, uh, someone can bring up a charge, some… and this is happening throughout the whole public, I guess, 15 or 20 years ago. Um, somebody is going to bring up some kind of charge against you, and uh, I don't really think that that's fair that they should set some kind of uh…

Well, some of what they're charging Rostin Kowski with is very current; it's not all back 20 years. A lot of it's very current, sir. There's other, there's other trials. I think the key here is his defense is going to be, look, everybody else did it. So if he's convicted, and he manages to prove his side of the case, he's convicting everybody else.

Well, I just think that they should have a statute of limitations. The other uh, point that wanted to hit is uh, I, I've written another note off to the White House. Oh, uh, apparently uh, the White House responded; they read my last note. Yes. Uh, what we're waiting for here is with this Korean problem. I guess this is going to be more important. Uh, you see, the A-bomb uh, destroyed uh, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. I recall that uh, the single Megaton is uh, 10 times more destructive than the A-bomb. Our Comm medium-sized missile carries uh, 10 megatons or 100 times the destructive power of Hiroshima. Before we start getting into krons right now… what the Koreans are probably developed is an A-bomb. Yes. Uh, the A-bomb, we have pictures of, if anybody researches it uh, after the explosion uh, the the actual explosion uh, destroyed most of uh, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the radiation cloud and the effects of the radiation lasted for years.

What is your point?

The point is if we allow the Koreans, they have a million of soldiers, to develop uh, one and and get a missile, they'll probably fire it. I don't know whether they would just fire it into uh, South Korea or they would fire it a little farther. Once that blows, of course, the whole North Korean force will start to move into South Korea.

All right, sir. We've got to hold it there. Thank you.

Yes. I, I know the way it may go. We all know what the risk is. Glad I'm not living in Seoul. I'll say that much, cuz that would certainly be the target. They'd certainly fire at Seoul.

Boy, that would be an important Patriot shot, wouldn't it?

Here she comes.

Yes, sir. Fire the whole battery. On the toll-free line, you're on the air.

Uh, yes. Uh, uh, I've been wanting to call you for a long time to ask you about a a a guy that used to have a radio program uh, from uh, Las Vegas. His name was Billy Goodman, and it was a lot about flying saucers.

Yeah. He did a show like that some years ago now, and uh, it's my understanding um, while he bounces back to Las Vegas every now and then, but he was back on the East Coast somewhere up in the Northeast.

Oh, I see. And then there was another, another thing. One time I heard you uh, it was years ago, and you were talking about um, talking about ghosts and spirits, and you said there was some lady, I think it was in U…

Oh, it sure was. Did you ever go to see her?

You… I tried. I tried to uh, as a matter of fact, she invited me to… said she was having a regular visit from a ghost. She gave me her number. I talked to her at that number, and then when it came up to the weekend when I was going to go down there, and I sure was… yeah… her phone didn't exist anymore.

Oh, my goodness. You know, I, I called to make the final arrangements, and that's right, and her phone didn't exist. So you tell me… oh, well, you know, I just don't know, but I just… I didn't get to hear all of…

It, in all these years, I've wondered, well, that's exactly go and what happened. I tried to go, ma'am. I tried, all right, thank you very much. Yes, I tried to go because if there are ghosts and if they are The Departed, that obviously proves that there is something beyond this life. It's not a trivial discovery, so I wanted to see for myself.

On the uh, Wild Card line, you're on the air. Good morning, Mr. Bill. This is Nathan Santa Cruz.

Hi, hi. I'd like to talk about this uh, business about the trilateral commission that's been coming up on your show a little bit.

Uh, what about it?

Oh, I just like to say uh, regardless of whether or not there's a it's an overt out conspiracy, there there was something interesting written for it by a professor named Samuel Huntington. It's not a conspiracy. If you want to know what the trilateral commission is doing, write to them, and they will they will tell you.

I understand, um, but there was something kind of disturbing that was written for it about uh, suggesting press censorship and C or seem to be uh, suggesting something close to that. And uh, I'm not I'm not going to try to, you know, obviously there's a lot of different people involved with it and there's different viewpoints, but I I do see where some of the concerns can be could be coming from.

Um, well, anyways, I just wanted to call up and say that. All right, that's how it seems to me. All right, bye.

I don't know, they're out in the open about what they do, about what they want; that much is true. Everybody thinks it's some great big conspiracy. It's not; it's very much in the open. They'll tell you exactly what they're doing. Write to them; try it yourself.

On the Wild Card line, you're on the air. Radio Free America indeed. How's it going, Art?

It goes well. Listen, uh, you know, I'm going to I'm gonna ask you some things. I'm wondering, you know, I've been listening to Chuck Harter. He's now, you know, when you had that lightning storm, I switched channels on you.

Oh, yes. Uhuh.

And uh, he's coming up with some pretty good stuff. I I hope uh, you know, you uh, you can get some of these people he's interviewing on, like Reed. Great, great uh, interview with him. I think Harter's um, over the edge and has been for quite a while.

You do?

Yes, sir. I do.

Well, uh, I listened I listened to the Chuck Harter um, NAFTA hate show for months and months and months and months, and it got to the point where I thought it was absolutely ridiculous.

Well, I haven't I haven't heard him until recently, just this week, but he did bring to my attention that piece in The Economist, and there is some major allegations in that piece, and I urge all your listeners to to pick up the the the the economist. It's a very reputable um, um, public all Europe.

Yeah, it's a European magazine.

Art, a story of that magnitude is not is being suppressed in the United States. It's outrageous.

It is outrageous. Our our journalists are bought and paid for.

No, they're not.

Well, then why isn't anyone reporting on this story, Art?

Well, I think that our journalists are probably, more believe it or not, conservative. I I spent some time in uh, Europe, and uh, they thrive. You think we have a lot of scandal here; they live on scandal. I mean, they're on scandal overload in Europe.

Well, I understand that, but uh, you know, when you got four three attempts on a man's life and with a Clinton Body Count, it smells to high heaven.

Well, all right, all right, thank you. I the Clinton Body Count. Now, what the hell does that mean? Uh, you can take anybody, as far as I'm concerned, and establish a body count around them, anybody uh, anybody, let's say, who would U for example, head a major corporation. I would bet you that you could begin documenting a body count around that person, people who have something to do with that business who have died, people who have committed suicide. There's a lot of suicides in this country, and I'm not saying there's not something to this whole Clinton story; I'm just not saying there it's it's automatic that there is, nor have I seen proof that there is, so I don't know. I'm I'm kind of hesitant about all that sort of stuff, and I guess I'm from Missouri on that one.

On the um, Wild Card line, you're on the air. Hello.

Yeah, Texas Bob, San Jose, California. Hello. How you doing?

Just fine. We're listening to you tonight on KPMW, KEX, and K three.

Huh. Okay. We start with KPNW and KEX and end up with K. All right. Um, Ginch, interesting guy. I my wife and I are both graduates of S and found a lot of value in that, but found that um, there were some funny subliminal things that uh, they tended to that made you feel a little guilty and like you should contribute more time and more money to their cause.

I think though, Mo, all religions kind of do that.

Yeah. I don't know what it was. It kind of rre of Eastern brainwashing or something. I found an awful lot of uh, Scientology to be a lot the same way, but I'll tell you some of the most dramatic changes in my life came out of some views that I conjured from reading DTIC. Yeah, my my view is that there probably is something to Scientology uh, as as a science. I don't know that I think of it uh, very much as a religion. I think uh, of Scientology more as a science.

Yeah, I think it tends to get a little confusing if you want to look at it as as a religion, as a science, as a useful tool. I think for some, you know, uh, psychological um, shortcomings or questions or need, I think that it's quite helpful. It's been for me anyway, so um, I I really want to thank you a lot for putting that fell on and a couple of others that you've done recently. I we listen to you every day. I wish we could get in a lot quicker.

Well, I'm glad you made it. Thank you. Thank you. Take care.

Uh, from San Jose to the lines now on the first-time caller line, you're on the air.

Hey, good morning. This is VTO in Alaska.

Well, hello. Where in Alaska are you?

I'm in Chugiak.

Chugiak, Alaska. Okay. Okay. Now, Art, I want to talk to you about Rostkowski if I may. You may. You know, uh, can you imagine that kid that gave him a th Buck? Can you imagine what that kid can you imagine what his dad is thinking right now?

I'm I'm not sure what what you're talking about.

That kid. Remember that kid sent the president $1,000 national debt?

Yes, I do. And you imagine what his father's saying right now to the kid? He's saying, well, gee, you know, uh, well, we didn't know. And I thought that can you imagine a th000 bucks for like a 13-year-old kid? That's a lot of money.

Sure is. Oh, yes, a lot of money to me, a lot of money to me. You know, it's going to take a long time for the Congress to live this down because this makes all of them look bad.

Well, that's what I think is going to come out of this. Um, I think that if there is a trial and Mr. Austin Kowski successfully proves his point, which he may, that he's not doing anything everybody else isn't doing uh, and yet he is convicted with a very harsh jail sentence, then that convicts all of them.

Yeah, sure enough. All right. Well, thank you very much. Chak Alaska, and we are literally uh, we literally blanket Alaska from one end to the other and very glad to be up there. K KF um, and I could go through the other call letters uh, we're even uh, now on Dreamland uh, in Juneau, Alaska.

On the toll-free line, you're on the air. Hello.

Hey, Mike in Albuquerque. How you doing?

Just fine. Mike, were you serious about uh, you would travel to see a ghost?

Oh, yes.

Well, I got just a place for you.

Where is that?

Okay, next time you get some vacation time, you and your better half pack up your bags and you travel to Simon, New Mexico.

What's there?

There's a hotel there called the St. James Hotel. Uh, it's a hotel that's been in existence for about 150 years.

Oh, we've got one here. It's called the Mpaw up uh, up Northern Nevada.

Uh-huh.

Yeah, it's haunted, they say.

Well, but I mean, what guarantee? This lady told me this ghost was there all the time. She told me it was there when I would call her; it would be sitting there or standing there. I said, well, could I see the ghost if I came there? She asked the ghost; the ghost said, "Why, sure." And so it was like a sure thing.

Yeah. Now then, she disappeared on you?

Well, yeah, yeah. Probably probably vaporized.

It's a St. James; it won't disappear on you. If you want to see something, you but I mean, how can you dependably know the ghost is going to show? Because it shows up dependably. It shows up to uh, to it's not it they um, a strange phenomena take place in that hotel all the time. In fact, there's one room, uh, room number 19, uh, no one is allowed to uh, stay in the room. They have it off really, really.

No kidding.

Uh, they say there's been over 120 people murdered in the hotel.

In a come on. No. It was an old West. Oh, there's no single place where 120 people have been murdered. Come on. It's been in existence for about 150 years, and it was a uh, uh, one of the nicer hotels um, back in the days of the old West, and a lot of people stayed there, and it's kind of like in Tombstone, Arizona. They have bullet holes preserved, you know.

Yeah.

From the old days. But uh, we were with a group of people who saw a strange vaporous object in the corner one breakfast morning. And uh, you got me out. What the hell that was?

Well, I'd love to see such a thing. I'd really love to.

You should go. You'd enjoy it. Free food, too. All right, get out of the desert. See the mountains.

All right. Okay. Well, thank you very much for the call. Maybe I'll you never know; maybe I'll do that. I mean, the lady in Redlands was just so intriguing because it was such a reliable thing, and then it all of course uh, vaporized right before my eyes on a Friday.

On the uh, Wild Card line, you're on the air. Hello.

Yeah, this is the mighty KDWN in Las Vegas. How you doing, Art?

Uh, just fine, sir.

Yeah, I just want to thank you. It's refreshing to hear somebody on the radio, especially talk radio, who has a good healthy dose of skepticism about these conspiracy and and murder fears and things like that. It just um, gets a little crazy after a while, and it's nice to hear somebody say, "Hey, you know, let's get some proof," and coincidences do happen, you know, and I just want to thank you for that.

Thank you. I'm very interested in proof. Thank you. Uh, another thing, I heard Larry Nickel, speaking of that, on the uh, Chuck Harter show, and he explained the reason why he wouldn't be on your show.

Oh, what did he say?

The only reason he gave is too late at night, and he went to that's it. Really? Get I want to get on that show, say that. I mean, somebody called him up on Harter and said, "Why are you going ARL?" And he said, "Because it's too late."

No, he just brought it up as part of his conversation.

Oh, you mean he brought it up?

He brought it up. He said, yeah, this ARL has been trying to get a hold of me, and uh, the only reason I won't go on a show is it's too late.

I see. Well, at least finally we have an explanation. Mr. Nicholls can't stay up late.

Oh, that floored me. It really did. This guy this guy really uh, sickens me. These guys are digging a hole, and you're right; eventually something legitimate is going to come out, and everybody's going to say you're right. It's like the rest the stuff, you know. That's it. I mean, this stuff is just too fantastic, and people what happens to people is they get a um, a kind of a a scandal overload, and uh, so then what is it going to be if something serious comes along? But it it'll seem rather mundane.

Exactly.

Yeah. Compared to some of this. Last thing I want to thank you about is you got the guts and have no screener, and I really appreciate that. Uh, it's it's frustrating to hear Mega Doos every time somebody picks up the phone.

Appreciate your call, sir. Thank you. That's Las Vegas.

Well, look, I just uh, I don't I think this is real talk radio; it's as real as it gets, and uh, I think there ought to be any talk host out there worth his salt ought to be good enough to be able to tackle whatever comes along, uh, whatever it is. I mean, you may or may not have knowledge in a certain area, but uh, if you don't screen your calls, there's a certain magic that's there that is the real talk radio. That's what I think, and um, it's just it's the spontaneous nature of not knowing what's next. It's like a great adventure.

Our American UN rep said we need a global safety net for the poor. A global safety net for the poor. He read much more but would uh, take too long to copy. Well, there it is anyway. So I guess it's true. Michael Reagan read the report on his show today. That's Diane in Spokane, KSBN. Are they out of their minds? Are they absolutely out of their minds? They lost their minds. What's the matter with them? We're going to kick in part of all the money we make so that poor nations around the world can have a safety net. You know, my reaction to this really wouldn't be suitable for the radio.

On the on on the Wild Card line, you're on the air. Hello.

Oh, good morning, Art.

Good morning. I'm calling from KW in Wisconsin.

Yes, hi there. And my name is Fra.

Hi there. I'm uh, I would like to say that I ordered both of your t-shirts.

Oh, you did.

And they are beautiful, but I do have to tell you some things that it's kind of comical. I had one of yours at the city of N there, and people would come up and say, "What religion is that?"

What religion?

Yes, tell them it's a cult.

Well, I don't want to end up in jail or with a tank at your front door, right. Uh, what I did want to talk to about uh, dipping into things that they're not supposed to in Washington, D.C. Yes, uh, all the money and pension money is also being dipped into. Uh, a matter of fact, uh, one of it is where they're going to make housing for the poor that is going to be established. I think it's Pennsylvania, right? And uh, I don't know how much money it is on a whole, so it isn't just social security or anything else. They're just dipping into anything that's there.

Anything that's there. Sure. Whatever they can do.

Huh. Yeah. And it it's really bad because I guess it's a railroad fund that's really being hit right now, and this is money that these people are planning on living on that are retired, so I don't know what they're going to do after that.

SC are they just going to cut the pension, and these people aren't going to get anything?

Sure is a good question. I uh, I I don't have the answer for you, but I know that at some point there is going to be a like a crunch point.

Well, I think there's going to be a point where all these people uh, everything is just boiling up to such a point that maybe they're going to be not rational at all, and I'm just so worried about that. I mean, as you have talked to on the show several times, this is not the way to go.

Well, I I certainly agree. I I listen, I want to thank you for the call and also the plug for the t-shirts. I can't

Yes, if anybody is really thinking of ordering, they are just so beautiful, and they're worth every penny you pay for.

Yeah, I'll tell you another secret about those t-shirts; they don't shrink.

Well, we're in the laundry business and dry cleaning business. This is our business that we do have.

Yeah. And I always like to test things right away because if I do, then I'll order more. If I don't, these I have a certain amount of polyester in there that will eliminate shrinking. You could just wash the things over and over and never worry about your little grandchildren wearing them because they do, and they hold the shape beautifully. I mean, most of these t-shirts, you know, once you get them on, they're hanging here and there, but these wash up just gorgeous.

Well, I'm sure glad to hear it, and um, I feel like I ought to give them a plug. I can't find the number right now. Do you remember what the number is to order those?

Uh, no, I don't. I got it from you, and I wrote it someplace, and and then I I called him up immediately. He says, "Oh, you're almost the first one they called."

All right. Well, listen, thank you. I really appreciate it. I'm glad you enjoy the shirts. They are special.

Yes. And please keep up the good work. And by the way, I did order one of your shortwave radios.

Oh, good for you. Because we do not get your station, you know. We have to wait later. And I thought that uh, I I don't know if I could we get it in shortwave if we're here in Wisconsin. Would it reach that far?

Not yet, but

Well, um, uh, this program is not yet on shortwave uh, so you can't get that. I am on shortwave, and you might hear me.

Well, when do you come on a short?

Well, uh, I'll tell you. A lot of times when I get off my live segment in about 52 minutes, I will go on ham radio on shortwave.

Okay. I ordered one of those radios that I guess is supposed to be one of the best. I guess it's 259 or 254.95, the 818s. You're going to be really, really happy.

Well, I hope it's not real complicated because I am the most uncomplicated mechanically inclined person you

Well, there's one good thing about the you know, I have to tell you these people are just so wonderful. I explained that I'm not very mechanically inclined, and they said, "Don't worry," he says, "You could call us at any time with a toll-free number. You have any problems, just call us." They'll even sit on the phone and tell you how to operate. That's what they said. Y they will do it.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Take care.

Um, Kosha, Wisconsin. Yeah, you might hear me all the way up there.

Sure. I get on ham radio every now and then. Um, I love ham. I love radio, period. I'm a radio nut, period. And I'll probably do it again this morning. I'll uh, I'll tell you where I am. I'm on the 75-meter band, and the frequency I usually pop on is um, 3892.

3892.

So if you're a ham and you can get on the 75-meter band, uh, pop on to 3892 about 5 minutes after um, I get off the air. I'll crank up the shortwave rig here and uh, and see who's around. Some nights many, some nights not so. If you're a ham radio operator, pop on there, and I'll say hello. And if you're just a listener, listen to that frequency, and you never know, you might hear me. It's lower sideband, 3892, lower sideband.

And on the toll-free line, you're on the air. Hello.

Good morning.

Good morning, sir.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about Linda Thompson, and I'm repeating KFYI.

Yes, sir.

And in the afternoon show, they had a uh, a guy; he was U the president of the John Birch Society.

Oh, yes. I've had him on myself.

And he was talking about Linda Thompson.

Yes. I I have their position paper on Linda Thompson, and um, they feel as I do that it is uh, very dangerous, and they have advised their members uh, of exactly that fact, and they have a whole position paper on Linda Thompson, so there you go.

Yeah. He even thought maybe she worked for the government.

Yes. I know they feel that, and you know, I was talking to a friend of mine, and he said the same thing about 4 days before I heard this conversation, so it got me into thinking, you know, and uh, and about this gun control, they talked a little bit about gun control.

Well, maybe it is karma in some way because Linda Thompson has said of many of her critics that she thinks they work for the government, so now they're accusing her of working for the government.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, she's she's said that of people who have criticized her, so you know, maybe it's karma.

Well, you know, I was thinking about gun control and my mother. Huh. I was going to say a lot of people think I work for the government.

Oh, well, CIA, you know.

Well, whatever, you know. If you do, you're you're you're a blessing to the agency. So anyway, I was thinking about gun control, and my mother told me something I never forget. We was discussing; we was watching this Phil Donahue thing, and one of our sheriffs from Arizona is challenging the Brady Bill, and she said something to me; it really struck home. She she said, "You know, they grab up out the gun that fires the bullet but not the finger, not the person with the finger PS the trigger," right? And you know, they got me to thinking then today with Rodney King, with yesterday, I mean, when the jury come out and said, well, you damages, he's not going to get anything, so I was just wondering what happened if they started riding again, and the people I think California have to wait 15 days, you know, and so I was just wondering, "Thank God we do have guns," and here in Arizona, we we all pretty much carry guns, not everyone, but there are a lot of ranchers. We have a lot of ranchers out here and things that

Well, sure. Uh, and it's the same all the way across uh, Western America. Guns are just sort of there; they're not it's not any big deal.

Yeah. And then um, I was out camping a couple of weeks ago, and I was in Circle K, and these three guys come in. I was buying some something for my camp, and these three guys come in with sidearms right on their hips, and sure, I didn't think of the thing about it. I felt very safe.

Yeah, it's not that unusual.

All right. Thank you very much for the call.

On the Wild Card line, you're on the air. Hello.

Yes, this is Marie in Maryville.

Hi, Marie. I tried to reach you when you had that guy from Scientology on. Uh, that guy was the president of Scientology. You weren't really interested in that, are you?

Um, well, no, uh, I mean, not as in personally involved. I'm interested in it, Maria, as I am in just about anything else, you know. I have an open mind.

Well, I believe that you should believe half of what you see, a quarter of what you read and hear. That's healthy.

Yes. But in four books now on different things, I like to read biographies. I've heard that uh, L. Ron Hubbard started in witchcraft in England.

Really?

Yeah. And that really bugs me.

Well, I hadn't heard that, so but uh, on another subject, uh, the one child up here that had that infection that was same in England was actually five five people, five children.

Five children in Seattle?

Are you serious?

Yes. Um, so far they had the four that have had the surgery, and they're out and fine.

Good Lord. Where did you hear this?

Uh, it was on the news on all the channels.

Oh, my. And um, they're telling people to be very careful.

My another cluster?

Huh?

Yeah. My daughter had just 4 days ago; her roommate has a little boy, and she was going to expose him to the meas uh, chickenpox, and I told her, "No, don't. No, I wouldn't choose this boy."

Oh, boy. That's that's really something. Uh, when I talked to her tonight, she was very glad she hadn't.

It goes in through staff infections on your skin.

Well, I understand that it is something VES claim that we all have in the back of our throats.

Well, uh, the staff germ is on everybody's skin on the outside also, and uh, believe it or not, you can get a staff infection in your kidneys from giving hickeys.

From from giving hickeys?

Yes. Um, my son got some, but you have to be very careful with staff infections. That's why it's a good idea to wash your hands.

Oh, I suppose.

All right. Thank you very much, Marie. Uh, so then they probably called the hickey disease?

Huh?

Well, look, I I tell you, swallow all this with a uh, a drop of skepticism. It may be absolutely true, but I and I don't want to panic anybody, but this is getting to be a little silly, isn't it? Do you believe uh, what the government's saying about this little clusters of this disease?

It's always been around; they've had this before. It's no big deal. The old heting eating human flesh, whatever it is, no big deal. Be calm, be safe. Our government will take care of this.

Boy. On the toll-free line, you're on the air. Good morning.

Hello.

Going once. Going twice. Three times.

On the Wild Card line, you are on the air. Good morning.

Good morning, Art. How you doing?

Just fine.

Good. Very good. Very strange disease, this thing.

Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. I just want to let you know that you're our favorite radio friend here at KPNW.

Thank you.

And uh, I had a sort of a Dreamland story for you, but it's not Dreamland. All right, very weird incident. This is the weirdest thing that happened to me last year. Okay, I had a dream. Me and my sister, in my dream, me and my sister are traveling from New Jersey to Eugene, Oregon, on a bus, on a Greyhound bus. We stopped like in LA, Wyoming.

Right. Right.

And my sister has an apartment in Lam, but it's in Eugene, on a street down by the university, and we go there, and suddenly I realize I forgot my backpack. I'm threatened over this; everything I have in this world is in this backpack. I am so stressed out. We got to get back to the Greyhound station. Yes, we're running down the street; a helicopter knocks over a bunch of power lines. We can't cross the street; we got to go a mile out of our way. I'm just my backpack. Did I leave it on the bus? Did I leave it in the Greyhound station? Did someone pick it up? Did someone steal it? Did they turn it in? Get back to to Greyhound station. I'm looking for my my backpack. I wake up, so that it's a dream, right? I go down to my mailbox, get my mail. I get a package from my sister. I open it up, and it's a birthday present. I open up; there's some cards in there; there's a couple of t-shirts. I pull out a package. I'm like, "What's this?" It was a backpack.

Wow.

And she didn't tell me nothing about it, Art. Nothing.

Well, I didn't even know there was a package coming from it was about it came about a week after my birthday.

Well, maybe maybe you're a prophet.

No, I just think that you know, we all are touched by dreams sometimes, you know, precognition or precognition things like that. The prophet. This was one of those for me, one of those moments for me, you know.

We'll call you the Bronx Prophet.

Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe you know the microchip guy. I don't know, you know, whatever, right? Listen, I was just listening to my gold rose tuna radio, which sounded great.

Well, of course it did; it sounded more wonderful than ever.

All right, sir. Thank you. That's our Bronx Prophet has dreams. Keep us up to date on the dreams, please.

The Wild Card line, you are on the air. Good morning.

Good morning, Art, from KVI country.

Yes, sir. Did you by any chance get a fact today from someone up in this area who is a newly elected NRA board member?

No, sir. I did not.

Concerning your attempt to get a hold of Wayne LaPierre, it is in the works.

Oh, is it? I was told by a mutual friend uh, yesterday, and we're all members of the country's second largest gun club up here in Washington.

Yes, sir. That uh, well

None of these guys but me stay up and listen to you, so I spread the word not only to the NRA directly but to all my friends, and one of whom just attended the NRA board meeting and got himself elected as a board member. And surprisingly enough, he he brought it up, and Wayne Laier had not heard about it. Well, you know that doesn't surprise me; somebody has been dropping the ball and either insulating him on purpose or just plain dropping the ball and not giving him the message. Oh, I think I think there are some people under Wayne Laier who are angry uh with me because I refused to accept anybody but Wayne Laier, and so they've got a kind of a vendetta going. And um, listen, I I'm coming up on a break; can you hold on?

Well, thank you, but um, it is Wayne LaPier that I would like to have. I've had uh many of these other people in the past from the NRA, and I think the situation is—I really explained all this to them—I think it's so critical right now with regard to Second Amendment guns in America that I'd like to have the man himself on. And I think we're big enough, enough to uh more than justify that appearance, and uh and I think that I ticked the guy off, frankly. Um, he finally got angry uh with me, and so it wouldn't surprise me at all but that there is some sort of insulation going on.

You're back on the air again, sir. Right. Okay. Well, the word I've got is that Wayne now knows that you want to uh have him on the show and says, "Oh, hell yes, I'll come on." Oh, good. So sometime soon somebody will be getting a hold of you. I passed your fax number on to this new director, and uh I was asked if there's a phone number that you answer during the day, but well, there is, but I can't give it out here. I'd be glad to give it to you privately. Okay. Uh, so um, so I'd be glad to do that. And yes, I I'm sure that is the case. Maybe some of it is my fault uh because I was um uh fairly uh hard in my in my position that I wanted Wayne Laier, and I know it got them angry. Well, that's the way it goes. But when you get him on, I hope I can get through because I want to talk to him personally myself. I've got a a few complaints of my own.

All right, sir. I appreciate it. Thank you. Wayne Laier is actually a pretty effective uh spokesperson. I thought in this last battle, though he lost it over the um uh assault uh weapons, though it's not totally lost yet, I might add, by the way, since the crime bill is not signed, sealed, and delivered. Uh, I thought he did a pretty good job of arguing against it, a pretty effective job, so I have no quarrel with Wayne Laier personally. It's just uh some of the staff at NRA, and I should add, I'm a member, continuing as a member of NRA. I just uh, you know, we've got millions of people here at night listening to this program, and uh it's a pretty significant audience of uh people who would have a lot of sympathy with what he would have to say, and he could motivate an awful lot of people, so it wouldn't make sense that he would not come on unless he didn't know.

On the toll-free line, you're on the air. Hello.

Hi. Good evening.

Good evening. Am I talking to the Artell Bell program?

Yes, you are.

Okay, thank you. Um, what do I do now?

Well, that's up to you. Um, I'd like to speak to Artell.

Okay. Uh, press four on your touchtone uh uh telephone now.

Okay. This is Artell Bell.

Hi. Good evening, Artell.

Good evening. How are you?

I'm fine, thank you. Uh, am I on the air with you?

Why, yes.

Okay, thank you. Um, I heard several of your callers discussing this this disease that apparently has come in from London, yes, into Seattle, and I'm afraid I have not heard a thing about it. Can you please brief—

Well, I cannot uh give you a lot of news about it. I can tell you you you you're familiar with what they said about the disease in uh in Europe?

No, I'm sorry, you're not.

Okay. It is to me that's that's why I'm asking. Give me a brief rundown on—

Well, it is apparently some uh mutated or virulent form of of a bacterial agent that we all have with us, and somehow it changes, and then when it does it be it eats uh it will eat the fat and the muscle of the human body within 24 hours.

My God.

Yeah, that's what I say too. And and this started in Europe or or London or what?

Well, the government or the governments are saying that uh why it's nothing new. They say they've had it before. It comes in clusters, and uh there is nothing to worry about.

Now I'm I'm worried. I I don't know about anybody else, but I'm worried, and I don't believe them. Actually, I'm sorry. You know, I'm 63 years old. I've never heard of this, but uh and I I'm sorry, I just missed whatever came on the news, or if it was on the news, I this is the first I've heard about this, and I'm just asking, since I'm only tuning into you this evening, could you give us a brief background or—

All right. Well, I've almost told you what I know. Uh, thank you very much for the call. I would say first of all uh to be cautious because I have only callers uh with regard to the stories about Seattle. I don't know how much of that is so, and you have to always be cautious, but um I've now had a couple of calls and uh so you know it begins to give some credence to it, some credibility, but it's still just a couple of people who have called, and uh you know, rumors are rumors, and you never know what's true and what's not. We will check it out.

Pretty odd stuff, huh? I always I I always picture um roughly the beginning of *The Stand*, you know, some scientist with a uh a vial in his hand, holding it up uh looking at uh little bitty teeny crawly things uh crawling around in the vial, and then uh somebody startling the scientist. Oops, crunch on the floor, and then a bunch of human bodies just all chewed up, and it's loose on the world. Of course, I imagine the worst, so I don't know, but this may be real, and um if I were you all, I would stay close to this story and continue to follow this story, and when you hear government people saying not to worry—

Worry. On the uh toll-free line, you're on the air. Hello.

Yeah, good morning. Uh, this is Kway Chico.

Chico, yes, sir.

Yeah, I'd like like to talk about the staphylococcus infection.

Yes. Okay, good. I'm sure the lady who was just on will appreciate that.

Okay. Well, it's not a mutated form. It's a common bacteria that's in the back of her uh about oh from 3 to 10% of people at all times in your in your throat.

Yes. Yes. In your throat. And it's not a mutated form, and uh you probably have heard about it before, only uh for a long time they uh a lot of people refer to it as blood poisoning.

And uh, come on, blood poisoning doesn't eat your skin and flesh and muscle, because most cases of what they they referred to as blood poisoning is actually a staphylococcus infection. And there's been a lot of people die from uh from say like cutting yourself shaving, like a famous person died from it uh that went in the tombs. They tried to say it was the curse of the Pharaohs and all that.

Oh, that was uh actually the staff, staph infection. And it doesn't come in clusters, but what happens is that every once in a while they have a statistical cluster.

Statistical?

Yeah, that's that's right. That's what they're calling it, a statistical cluster, right? And so you know, every once in a while it pops up in clusters, but usually it pops up in single cases, and in most cases it's usually diagnosed as blood poisoning. And actually, there is such thing as actual blood poisoning. It's a staphylococcus infection, and uh so you know, it's been around for years and years. It's just that in most cases it doesn't get uh you know, as well publicized. And I I don't know if I believe all that. I'm sorry, but I just don't know that I believe it. I've been around for a while, and I've not heard about any disease that eats away at the human flesh the way—and I've seen the pictures too—there's a lot of diseases that you know, a lot of people don't necessarily hear about every—there's a lot more horrible diseases float around than than this staphylococcus infection, and we don't necessarily hear about them, and especially when they're in third-world countries and stuff like that. It's just that up until now, until the abuse of of antibiotics, usually get caught in time because one of the first signs is the same sign that they is when you have blood poisoning.

Yeah, that is how that is the traditional treatment, isn't it? Uh, large doses of antibiotics and in radical cases surgery. M, and when it first starts out, you get an infected cut or sore, and little red lines start leading up your arm or through the veins up towards you, you know, same symptoms as blood poisoning, reaching for your brain. And usually when people see that, they go to the doctor, and the antibiotics take care of it before it has a chance to—either that or your left arm falls off.

Oh, all right, sir. I've got to run. Thank you.

Yeah, I suppose you know it may be true. I mean, it may have been around for a long time, no big deal, nothing to worry about, but I've seen some of the pictures, and um I'll tell you, it looks like a big animal took a bite out of some of these people.

Untreated, it consumes the muscle and fat of a human being in 24 hours.

24, 4 hours and you're gone. Been around, nothing to worry about.

Yeah. All right. On the first-time caller line, you're on the air. Hello.

Artell, how in the world are you?

Very well, sir. Good. I appreciate your candidness, and uh you're just not satisfied with topical answers, are you?

No. I was listening to your guest on earlier, and he's typical of so many religious leaders. You know, they never really address the real questions in life, like what—well, for example, who am I? Who am I? Well, what's the meaning to life? There's a good one. Wives are suffering, or why, and what is evil? Where is God when I really need him, like in a tragedy or disease?

Well, I'm sure the religious folk would say it's a test. You're being tested. You're here to suffer, you know.

Well, there's a good topical answer. You're you're here to suffer. I mean, it is a test. Your your human life is nothing but a test for the next level. How about that?

Well, well, if God's real, why can't I find him?

Well, because because he's God, and he doesn't want to be found.

Well, I thought he was big.

Uh, he is. He's everywhere. God is everywhere. It's kind of nonsense really, maybe—

Well, on the other hand, I'd be careful about saying that, because what if you're wrong?

Well, Artell, I don't want you to misunderstand me. I've been a student of religion and philosophy for years. I do believe in God very deeply and Jesus Christ.

Well, I know, but then I'd be careful about saying it's nonsense.

Well, I mean, you there, you know, they may be they may have an 818 CS up there and be recording this, and you may have to answer for that.

Well, if he lives in me, which the scripture says, uh Christ in you, the hope of glory, Paul said, "I live yet not I, Christ in me." Yes. Uh, Jesus knew the answer, and he gave it to us in a nutshell. They said, "Who are you?" He said, "Well, I am I am the way, I the truth, I am the life, I am the bread of Heaven." He knew who he was without a doubt, and he came to demonstrate that fact to all all of us. He was our mirror; he showed us who we are.

Well, then why are you asking me questions that you already have the answer to?

Well, here's the thing is, I'm really disillusioned with the systematized religion uh what I see on TV, what I hear, you know, Dione—they give topical answers, and you're the kind of man who's not satisfied with that, and I'm not really asking it these types of questions because I believe I've found them, and they are in scripture, but uh I'm I'm upset that I hear, I watch TV, and I watch these preachers, and they give such surface answers, and they put psychological uh trips on people, Heaven, hell, all of that. You're going to burn in uh forever, and and and never giving any answers to why did I have a tragedy in my life or or where's God when I really need him.

All right, sir. Thank you very much for the call. But again, you're asking questions that you have the answer uh for um I you know I think God is there, but I I doubt that he involves himself in every small detail, and it is my view, just kind of a view, that events are roughly random on this Earth, and some will be challenged greatly and suffer, and others will uh sort of skate through it, and that God is not orchestrating each little thing that occurs to you uh but he's there, kind of an overall—there—oh, I don't even know how to talk about all this. He