MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY: Stop CHASING these Things if You TRULY Want to Feel Fulfilled in Life!

[music] [music] When you think about your life right now, you do so much. You were just talking about all the projects and travel and everything.

If you ever get a day that has no plan, no schedule, no timeline, no phone, >> no commitments. What does that look like for you?

>> Oh, I don't get many of those. And I need to my hunch is I need to learn to get more of those. And when I get them, I can be better at them because I have a love of accomplishment to even feel a significance for the day. M you know I sleep better um when I have a purpose and I went after something even if it's just building something and um I I'm still learning. I'm got to remind myself now. I used to be better at it actually to I just go daydream mosy. Let's take a mo everything's swing by today. That's one thing I've I quit calling appointments appointments and call them swingbys >> and all of a sudden I find I get just as much done but but I'm just it's just in my dance of the day.

Yeah, >> but if I have one full day off, um I will get my 9 and 1 half hours sleep, which is preferred, which means maybe I sleep till 9:30. I'll get up, um take my time, mosey down. If Camila was up, my wife was up before me, she'll have left me a a matcha tea. If uh if she wasn't or had to rush out the door, I'll go make that tea. While the water's boiling, I'll I'll go probably uh do eight pieces of a puzzle. which is a a wonderful way. I love starting my day on that slow simple ah eight little connections. Ah, you made you rhymed eight different things and very simple. Now I'll usually head out to the maybe the front porch, >> have that first tea, catch hopefully catch 15 minutes of some morning sun face. >> Um then I'll uh um catch up on the on the the the the world's news, what's happening. And uh maybe I'll do my word or a couple little simple little things. I'm going to try and play tennis somewhere in the day. >> I'm going to try and break a sweat somewhere during the day. Um I'll take some project or something that I'm working on or writing with me maybe to my gym and have one of those lazy little two and a half hour workouts where you kind of stop and write some things and then you kind of get hop back into it. And then uh I'm probably going to cook dinner that night when I don't have anything going on. >> Mhm. So, either I'm going to get the ribe eyes and and and rub them down in my rub and have everything and and and or I'm going to do tuna melts for the family that night. Um, and then uh kids never want to come home. We'll usually hang. I'm picking I'm saying this day that I have off as a school day. >> Yeah. >> And uh we'll hang catch up on days after that. Maybe the family will all go catch something. One of our favorite shows we'll go watch an hour. And if we start early enough, maybe we get two episodes, [laughter] kids will go down, then uh Camil and I get to hang and uh for the last couple hours of the evening. That'd be that'd be a mosy through my day day. >> Nice. I love that. >> Yeah.

>> How how obviously the mindset of achievement and purpose and growth has served you so well, but there's a part of you that sounds like I would like more days like this. Where does that come from?

>> I love to be on task. I love to have something that I'm building and reaching to finish and and do. I love the building of that. I've started a lot of the campfires in my life that I'm still building. Um and I have plenty to fill my 24-hour days. At the same time, I want to keep learning and and be inspired by something new, you know, pick up something that I didn't like. I just picked up tennis four years ago. I didn't have I noticed I said you hadn't had a hobby for 25 years m you found your first hobby. I thought writing was a hobby and I was like no no that's actually not a hobby you know but to find to be open to finding a new hobby a new to go somewhere not I don't know where we going we're going for a walk >> to no destination in particular >> you know to to lose track of time >> with success and with a busy life and I got a full life and I got a family and I got a career I my hunch is that while that can fill my days completely for my own evolution in art just to make sure I can still have that beginner's mind where I can go go daydream >> for nothing in particular. Go go go go go where your nose takes you. >> You know what I mean? Or [clears throat] go where your ears take you. Follow that to give my to make sure I'm giving myself time >> to let that happen. I think is a good pro I think is a good it it always seems to pay off. Yes. >> And it never is looked at as like time not well spent. >> You know what I mean? But in the time I can get a little bit anxious and be like, "Let's do let's get ahead on that thing, you know? Let's let's bring that thing that you were supposed to have done next Friday. What if we got that done now?" >> Yeah. Yeah. I can relate to that. I can I can relate to that. And >> I can see it too in in how easy it is as someone who loves what they do and loves creating and building and I fully get it. >> That's I mean, there's the upside and I'm I'm not over here bitching about that. I'm happy to have things in my life that I love to build and do. >> My wife knows it. She I'm I'm probably most happy. It's probably obvious >> when I'm when I'm working, when I have a when I have a schedule, when I have a day that is this many hours or 12 hours or I just got through shooting something for two months and then boom, hopped off next day went into shooting something for three days. I I love that. I sleep well. The food tastes a little better to me that night. that cocktail, that panel on ice tastes better that night. I'm actually, I think, have more time and I'm a better father to my kids, the conversations, and I'm more present when I have that uh sense of accomplishment through the day. >> Yeah.

What's uh you've written so many chapters, you've lived so many chapters. What would this chapter of your life be called?

>> That's a great question. Um, so I'm just turned 56 and 40s were my favorite decade. I think I really customized. And I found that to be true for a lot of people, especially a lot of the men I talked to, they go, "Man, 40s, you get rid of all that stuff where you're wasting your time and you're honing in on the stuff that turns you on." Um, look, 50s, I'm still in a the early the first first few years of 50s were a little wobbly for me. So you go, "Oh, is this that midlife crisis?" And I go, "What is that?" I don't like the word crisis on that. Sounds like a midlife, for lack of a better word, opportunity that you just, it's a time where for whatever reason, man looks back and goes, "What have I done? And now where am I going?" And I think my hunch is that most people go through what they call a midlife crisis. And if it's hard for them or not healthy for them, it's because maybe they're not giving enough credit to what they actually have done to get there. >> You know, it's like, oh no, I did that. >> Yeah. >> Done. Next. >> You know, like we're talking about with me need more accomplishment. Well, wait a minute. Sometimes it's all right to go what what did you do back there that actually you're still building? What if we take that to another level? Uh put another log on that fire. My goal when I hit the 50s, my my goal did it came to me was like, hey, you're an actor, you [clears throat] you you you play a character in someone else's script that someone else wrote, directed by someone else, lensed in a camera from someone else and edited by someone else before your performance is shared. And I love acting, but I go, there's four filters of my raw expression before it's getting to you. We were talking about this before we got on camera today. You go. You go on stage. Boom. It's direct. This is pretty direct, but there's still a filter here. >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? Writing, there's still one filter. That's But that's when I headed into writing is I wanted to get rid of three of the filters. And that's when said, "Oh, what if I write the word? Can I pull off and give someone translate the human experience where they people can see themselves through words? >> Can I paint a picture of [snorts] my own experiences which someone else can go, "Oh, I've been there. I know what you're talking about. But that's still a filter. So the challenge I've been that that keeps just gnawing at me since I've turned 50 is like what's your documentary? What what are you doing? Are you a character in life in the big show? The one there or action was called the day you were born and cut will be called the day you die. What what what are you doing live? Is that worth the show? >> Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Is it inspiring? Is it does it turn you on? Could it turn other people put people on? What's happen? That's that's now we're talking no filters. And so I've started to question myself, what what's your let's let's think about do you is there other avenues for you to live instead of doing someone else's script? What's your script? Now, that's led me to think about different ways of leadership. It's led me to to write more. It's also led me to go on the hard days to give myself a little amnesty and go, "Dude, take a little wisdom from Bob Dylan." You're all you are what you create yourself to be. >> Every maybe if you feel more alive acting in a show through a character, well, bravo. That's still you. Don't act like that's not you. You and get to your real self. Abby, you are to be the creation. And it's okay if I'm going to go play a part. >> We're all playing a part. >> Are we playing? If we can get to a part that is essentially close to essentially who we are, bravo for us. If we can't, we're having trouble doing that. And if we can play a part that we're good at and shows a piece and translates to show a piece of humanity, turns other people and and us on even though it may not be corly who we are, well, bravo for getting away with that one, too, >> you know. But play one at a time is another is another little tip I have to remind myself cuz the great performers, whether I think in life or in acting, you know, they they they can play any part. They can be any creation, but they're always one at a time. >> And that's where some patience has to come in. That's where a bit of that, hey, don't rush to accomplish. Just play one part at a time. >> But as life gets big and you've got a career and you got a family, there's many parts to play, >> you know, father, husband, performer, you know, or writer, whatever those are. But as you know with practice those all that instead of feeling like five different hats you got to wear one day you go oh that's all part of the same story that's all part of the same man I am. >> Mhm. So the chapter would be called one one at a time. >> The chapter would be called ah I wish it was called sometimes I think it should be called one at a time. The long my long answer to what would the chapter be would be uh I loved your answer. We've got a um I opened up eight lanes to about 12 lanes. >> When you open up to more lanes and you've been comfortable on these eight and you know them well, well, there's a little growing pains with getting comfortable in those other new lanes. Um without disregarding my eight that I've built that I've built that I'm comfortable in, >> you know. So I would say >> four more lanes. Let's call that chap. It's called Four More Lanes. >> Four More Lanes. Yeah.

>> It's interesting listening to you because I think you've highlighted a really interesting human trait that we all possess where when we achieve something and it's no longer useful, we start to denigrate it. So, for example, if I think a certain mindset is going to help me at this point in my life, I'll use it. It will get me to where I want to get to. And then when I get there, I'll go, I didn't like that mindset. I wish I was this way. And we kind of do that time and time again. And I assume decade by decade >> where we reject the thing that got us here. >> Yeah. >> And don't value it because now it isn't what the new >> world looks like. It's like, and making it very basic, a crude example is, oh, I used I thought that was cool to wear and now 10 years later, I look back and I think, why was I wearing that? Like I'm crazy. And but think about that on an internal soul level of the mindsets we wear and the behaviors we wear and >> like taking a moment as you said to give yourself that amnesty to say >> well yeah and to and to make sense of humor the default emotion when you look back and you're embarrassed of something you did that actually got you what you wanted >> to go you know >> to go instead of judging it at least start off giggling at it helps with the amnesty it also helps change gear and go oh the realization oh I wouldn't have I wouldn't have learned that lesson if I wouldn't have been such an egotistical prick at the time because I wouldn't had the confidence to put myself in the situation to get humbled. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? You can look at all the piles of we step in >> and they lead to, you know, the clean the clean water we get to drink from the from the well down the line or the truth we figure out. I mean, it's it's you say that uh it's a mystery going forward. It's science looking back. M >> you know >> cuz we can all connect the dots to exactly where we are right now >> and there's a science to it >> even and and that science has to do with when we face planted and tripped ourselves and messed up or went about it the wrong way but maybe got the outcome we wanted or went about it the wrong way and didn't get the outcome we wanted. I think that has a lot to do with our and I don't know do you think this is a western thing our relationship with failure we're embar we in some ways I wish we were more embarrassed [laughter] all right but in other ways I'm like we have to get a with children you know it's like they're afraid to fail and it's like >> no no no if anything if I look back I always answer the question what would you do different I wish I wish I would have taken more risk and failed more >> and I'm still trying to challenge myself to that >> today but we have this relationship with failure is like an embarrassing thing to do instead of shaking hands go no failure will happen and if it doesn't happen you're probably not taking enough risks or you're not getting out of your comfort zone. So no failure is part of the successful path. It's necessary and we don't have a good relationship >> with it. Do you is that a western thinking?

>> I think it comes from the western versus eastern ideology of time. So in eastern traditions time is cyclical and in western traditions time is linear. >> Yeah. >> And as soon as you make time linear failure means a step behind >> but as soon as time is cyclical well then it's just repeating itself. >> So that concept >> transforms how you view failure because failure then becomes a part of a cycle. >> Yeah. >> Whereas failure in a linear journey is bad >> because it means I'm going backwards and someone else is doing >> success in the same way in the western world. Western world vertical as in oh two steps up the ladder failure oh you step back down the ring whereas in the eastern philosophy it's not necessarily so vertical quantity >> yeah I would say it's I would say if the western is outwards and upwards then the eastern is inwards >> okay >> and so the inner journey for example the quest to understand outer space would not be as interesting as the inner sky >> the inner sky would be more of a magnetic pull to understand >> heard >> if that helps makes. Yes, it does. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so these little mindsets I feel it's it's what you said earlier. You change your language about midlife crisis to midlife life opportunity. >> That language shift is revolutionary for the mind. >> It's wild, isn't it? The vernacular, the prescriptionist definition or just a word. I had the word I had I've had the hardest time for 40 years dealing with the word humility. Come on. Got to be humble, Matthew. You got to be humble. We got to be more humble. My shoulders would start to cave. >> My head would start to go down. I was pass I became passive or lose. I had the moment where it was my turn and I I didn't take the opportunity. I had a false sense of modesty. No, no, no. You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, 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you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can relate to that. I can I can relate to

that. And >> I can see it too in in how easy it is as someone who loves what they do and loves creating and building and I fully get it. >> That's I mean, there's the upside and I'm I'm not over here bitching about that. I'm happy to have things in my life that I love to build and do. >> My wife knows it. She I'm I'm probably most happy. It's probably obvious >> when I'm when I'm working, when I have a when I have a schedule, when I have a day that is this many hours or 12 hours or I just got through shooting something for two months and then boom, hopped off next day went into shooting something for three days. I I love that. I sleep well. The food tastes a little better to me that night. that cocktail, that panel on ice tastes better that night. I'm actually, I think, have more time and I'm a better father to my kids, the conversations, and I'm more present when I have that uh sense of accomplishment through the day. >> Yeah.

What's uh you've written so many chapters, you've lived so many chapters. What would this chapter of your life be called?

>> That's a great question. Um, so I'm just turned 56 and 40s were my favorite decade. I think I really customized. And I found that to be true for a lot of people, especially a lot of the men I talked to, they go, "Man, 40s, you get rid of all that stuff where you're wasting your time and you're honing in on the stuff that turns you on." Um, look, 50s, I'm still in a the early the first first few years of 50s were a little wobbly for me. So you go, "Oh, is this that midlife crisis?" And I go, "What is that?" I don't like the word crisis on that. Sounds like a midlife, for lack of a better word, opportunity that you just, it's a time where for whatever reason, man looks back and goes, "What have I done? And now where am I going?" And I think my hunch is that most people go through what they call a midlife crisis. And if it's hard for them or not healthy for them, it's because maybe they're not giving enough credit to what they actually have done to get there. >> You know, it's like, oh no, I did that. >> Yeah. >> Done. Next. >> You know, like we're talking about with me need more accomplishment. Well, wait a minute. Sometimes it's all right to go what what did you do back there that actually you're still building? What if we take that to another level? Uh put another log on that fire. My goal when I hit the 50s, my my goal did it came to me was like, hey, you're an actor, you [clears throat] you you you play a character in someone else's script that someone else wrote, directed by someone else, lensed in a camera from someone else and edited by someone else before your performance is shared. And I love acting, but I go, there's four filters of my raw expression before it's getting to you. We were talking about this before we got on camera today. You go. You go on stage. Boom. It's direct. This is pretty direct, but there's still a filter here. >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? Writing, there's still one filter. That's But that's when I headed into writing is I wanted to get rid of three of the filters. And that's when said, "Oh, what if I write the word? Can I pull off and give someone translate the human experience where they people can see themselves through words? >> Can I paint a picture of [snorts] my own experiences which someone else can go, "Oh, I've been there. I know what you're talking about. But that's still a filter. So the challenge I've been that that keeps just gnawing at me since I've turned 50 is like what's your documentary? What what are you doing? Are you a character in life in the big show? The one there or action was called the day you were born and cut will be called the day you die. What what what are you doing live? Is that worth the show? >> Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Is it inspiring? Is it does it turn you on? Could it turn other people put people on? What's happen? That's that's now we're talking no filters. And so I've started to question myself, what what's your let's let's think about do you is there other avenues for you to live instead of doing someone else's script? What's your script? Now, that's led me to think about different ways of leadership. It's led me to to write more. It's also led me to go on the hard days to give myself a little amnesty and go, "Dude, take a little wisdom from Bob Dylan." You're all you are what you create yourself to be. >> Every maybe if you feel more alive acting in a show through a character, well, bravo. That's still you. Don't act like that's not you. You and get to your real self. Abby, you are to be the creation. And it's okay if I'm going to go play a part. >> We're all playing a part. >> Are we playing? If we can get to a part that is essentially close to essentially who we are, bravo for us. If we can't, we're having trouble doing that. And if we can play a part that we're good at and shows a piece and translates to show a piece of humanity, turns other people and and us on even though it may not be corly who we are, well, bravo for getting away with that one, too, >> you know. But play one at a time is another is another little tip I have to remind myself cuz the great performers, whether I think in life or in acting, you know, they they they can play any part. They can be any creation, but they're always one at a time. >> And that's where some patience has to come in. That's where a bit of that, hey, don't rush to accomplish. Just play one part at a time. >> But as life gets big and you've got a career and you got a family, there's many parts to play, >> you know, father, husband, performer, you know, or writer, whatever those are. But as you know with practice those all that instead of feeling like five different hats you got to wear one day you go oh that's all part of the same story that's all part of the same man I am. >> Mhm. So the chapter would be called one one at a time. >> The chapter would be called ah I wish it was called sometimes I think it should be called one at a time. The long my long answer to what would the chapter be would be uh I loved your answer. We've got a um I opened up eight lanes to about 12 lanes. >> When you open up to more lanes and you've been comfortable on these eight and you know them well, well, there's a little growing pains with getting comfortable in those other new lanes. Um without disregarding my eight that I've built that I've built that I'm comfortable in, >> you know. So I would say >> four more lanes. Let's call that chap. It's called Four More Lanes. >> Four More Lanes. Yeah.

>> It's interesting listening to you because I think you've highlighted a really interesting human trait that we all possess where when we achieve something and it's no longer useful, we start to denigrate it. So, for example, if I think a certain mindset is going to help me at this point in my life, I'll use it. It will get me to where I want to get to. And then when I get there, I'll go, I didn't like that mindset. I wish I was this way. And we kind of do that time and time again. And I assume decade by decade >> where we reject the thing that got us here. >> Yeah. >> And don't value it because now it isn't what the new >> world looks like. It's like, and making it very basic, a crude example is, oh, I used I thought that was cool to wear and now 10 years later, I look back and I think, why was I wearing that? Like I'm crazy. And but think about that on an internal soul level of the mindsets we wear and the behaviors we wear and >> like taking a moment as you said to give yourself that amnesty to say >> well yeah and to and to make sense of humor the default emotion when you look back and you're embarrassed of something you did that actually got you what you wanted >> to go you know >> to go instead of judging it at least start off giggling at it helps with the amnesty it also helps change gear and go oh the realization oh I wouldn't have I wouldn't have learned that lesson if I wouldn't have been such an egotistical prick at the time because I wouldn't had the confidence to put myself in the situation to get humbled. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? You can look at all the piles of we step in >> and they lead to, you know, the clean the clean water we get to drink from the from the well down the line or the truth we figure out. I mean, it's it's you say that uh it's a mystery going forward. It's science looking back. M >> you know >> cuz we can all connect the dots to exactly where we are right now >> and there's a science to it >> even and and that science has to do with when we face planted and tripped ourselves and messed up or went about it the wrong way but maybe got the outcome we wanted or went about it the wrong way and didn't get the outcome we wanted. I think that has a lot to do with our and I don't know do you think this is a western thing our relationship with failure we're embar we in some ways I wish we were more embarrassed [laughter] all right but in other ways I'm like we have to get a with children you know it's like they're afraid to fail and it's like >> no no no if anything if I look back I always answer the question what would you do different I wish I wish I would have taken more risk and failed more >> and I'm still trying to challenge myself to that >> today but we have this relationship with failure is like an embarrassing thing to do instead of shaking hands go no failure will happen and if it doesn't happen you're probably not taking enough risks or you're not getting out of your comfort zone. So no failure is part of the successful path. It's necessary and we don't have a good relationship >> with it. Do you is that a western thinking?

>> I think it comes from the western versus eastern ideology of time. So in eastern traditions time is cyclical and in western traditions time is linear. >> Yeah. >> And as soon as you make time linear failure means a step behind >> but as soon as time is cyclical well then it's just repeating itself. >> So that concept >> transforms how you view failure because failure then becomes a part of a cycle. >> Yeah. >> Whereas failure in a linear journey is bad >> because it means I'm going backwards and someone else is doing >> success in the same way in the western world. Western world vertical as in oh two steps up the ladder failure oh you step back down the ring whereas in the eastern philosophy it's not necessarily so vertical quantity >> yeah I would say it's I would say if the western is outwards and upwards then the eastern is inwards >> okay >> and so the inner journey for example the quest to understand outer space would not be as interesting as the inner sky >> the inner sky would be more of a magnetic pull to understand >> heard >> if that helps makes. Yes, it does. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so these little mindsets I feel it's it's what you said earlier. You change your language about midlife crisis to midlife life opportunity. >> That language shift is revolutionary for the mind. >> It's wild, isn't it? The vernacular, the prescriptionist definition or just a word. I had the word I had I've had the hardest time for 40 years dealing with the word humility. Come on. Got to be humble, Matthew. You got to be humble. We got to be more humble. My shoulders would start to cave. >> My head would start to go down. I was pass I became passive or lose. I had the moment where it was my turn and I I didn't take the opportunity. I had a false sense of modesty. No, no, no. 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The problem is when the bridge becomes the home. Amen.

You don't want to live on the bridge.

Yeah.

Right. I can't remember who said it. There's a famous quote that says, um, "The world is like a bridge. Don't build your house on it. Cross over it." And that, I don't know who said it, but it's that that idea of, I think all of these platforms and apps and tools, they're all bridges.

Yeah.

But don't live there.

Yeah. Don't live, or don't feel that that's home.

That's it. Yeah. I mean, let me ask you this, though, because like in the Bible, it talks about we're all, you know, we're strangers here. We [clears throat] never, we don't find a home here. In some version, and I may be, uh, theologically messing this up, but what I get from it is, you know, but you try your pursuit to try and make heaven on earth, which you will not, because you will never find it here till you get there. That's that's as good as you can do. But you will always be a stranger. You'll always be an immigrant. You will always be looking for a home here on Earth.

Yes.

Now, how does that necessarily mean that that doesn't mean we're living on a bridge?

Yeah.

Or does it?

I believe so. I feel like the, it's like an airport terminal. It just feels like home because we feel like it's a long time, but because it's not eternal, it can't possibly be the destination, right?

From a, from a religious, spiritual, but you're trying to make home, or the pursuit of home.

Yeah.

What you see home, trying to, trying to bring it here.

Yes.

Trying to emulate it as much as possible. Live in the light of that.

It's like, I'm going to France next year, so I'm going to practice French now.

Right.

Like that, I think, is the, the big picture and the daily step at a time. It's like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to aspire to live. I'm, I'm going to move country next year, but I'm going to practice the rules, the rituals, the, the language of that country this year, because then I'll be prepared. So, so I don't, not have a great life now. I'm not postponing joy. I'm not postponing happiness or love. I'm practicing that culture that I believe is better for me. Yes. Now, if that makes any sense.

Yes. Yes, it does.

Yeah. What's, what's been, I feel like you're such a, I feel like your mind is like, you're constantly observing patterns and observing even like language as we've been talking. What's something that you've observed about humans that fascinates you, that surprises you, maybe?

Um, one, our ability to adapt when there's not another option.

Wow, that's a good one. We're elastic, man. We are elastic. More elastic than I like to practically think. But boy, when we're put to it, I'm amazed how quickly we can change, adapt, evolve, come to understand the other side. When we're put to it, you give us the option, we, we take the out, man.

And we, we, we argue and re, I'm not, I ain't budging.

Nuh-uh. You know what I mean?

Um, and then on the flip side of that, somewhat, is how we seem to find in this pursuit of the ideal, we seem to almost say, "Well, that is our home. That is who we are." And then go, "Okay, so there." And then we, our practice is not as evolved as we think it is, but we keep saying, and, and, and I love the, we can get tap into the 11% of our mind, which we don't tap into. We can be greater. We can transcend. But practically, every day, I think there's some great wisdom in going, "We're not as evolved as we think we are. Let's quit acting like we are." I love the pursuit. It's like rehabilitation and justice. I'm for rehabilitation, man. I'm, I, I mean, I love the New Testament. You know what I mean? At the same time, we are repeat offending son of a guns over and over and over. And if I've done you wrong, and you've allowed me to come to you and ask for forgiveness, the first order on the docket should be me. If you choose to forgive me, the first order on the docket should be me from now on doing anything I can to not have to come apologize to you again. It's not just that you forgave and gave me the chance to be forgiven. I got some sweat equity on my side to quit doing the actions that cause me to have you forgive me, to have me apologize again. And we don't forget, we seem to not forget that side. I love Kumbaya. This is the ideal place we can go. But I feel like we relax and kind of almost take for granted thinking we're that evolved. And no, we're not. That's the constant pursuit. We ain't there. So, let's deal with the hard math right here. And one thing we can depend on people being is people. Nothing we do is unbelievable. We do stupid all the time. We break our own noses because we tripped ourselves running downhill. We steal. We're jealous. We covet. We talk blue and vote red. We talk New Testament and act old. We're entrenched in some ideas.

Now, go back to that the first half of of what surprised me about people, uh, when I was talking about the adapt, the flexibility of adaptation. I remember I was, it was probably 12 years ago. It was in Alabama. I was doing research for a film down there, uh, um, Free State of Jones. And in Mobile, Alabama, on the docket that night, the next morning, the vote had gone through about whether Alabama was going to allow gay marriage. And I'm sitting in Alabama and I was like, "I don't think this is going to pass." Deep South Alabama. I mean, it sounds like that's a very progressive idea to them. Wasn't judging it. I'm just saying, as an anthropologist and sociologist, I'm like, the next morning, it passed 53% to 47%. I was like, "Wow." I talked to my friends, a lot of them on the left were abhorred. "I can't believe that. Those bigots, only 53%." And I was like, "Only 53%? I thought it was going to be 80-20 the other way. That was a massive amount." Me talking about meeting people where they are.

It was a massive flexibility. That surprised me. And that was just 12 years ago. So, we have to understand where people have come from. I write about it in the book about, I wish more crimes were from, uh, ignorance.

And what I mean by that is, if I know the right thing to do and I know the wrong thing to do, and I still do the wrong, crime, shame on me. I knew better. But there's certain crimes we commit daily that someone just goes, "I, I didn't know."

Yeah.

"Okay. Now, let's talk about some real rehab because you didn't make the wrong choice. You just didn't know."

Yeah.

"Now talk about some amnesty. Yeah. I've got to meet you in a different place, and we have to deal with solving the problem differently than I do with the guy that knew better and did it anyway."

Yeah. Do we expect too much from people?

Practically speaking, yes. [laughter] Yes. I mean, we underwhelm and underserve and undershow a lot, but we all have different expectations of ourselves and, and of others. I mean, so again, part of that, hey, just expect it. That old, expect the worst, the best. I don't like that. I like actually expect the absolute best, and when it comes in under that, you know, shoot for the A, make a C is better than shoot for C, make an F. When you, how quickly when you dealt with reality and go, "Okay, well, that's a hell of a lot better outcome, and I got more out of you, and you got more out of me than we would have if we'd had come in going like, 'Let's just make a C.'"

You know what I mean? We maybe, you know what I mean? We, we went for the perfection and we came in under it, but it was still pretty doggone good. Well done. That's where I'm, I call it an overshow theory.

How do you deal with when someone disappoints you based on your expectation?

[sighs]

Um, I'm quicker to say, "Yep, that was reality. That's what they're able to do." Whether it's forgiveness or amnesty, or whatever you call it, with, so with others than I am for myself.

Explain.

I expect perfection from myself a lot, and I don't reach it, and I know I can, or I believe I can. That's a better word. I believe I can. And I don't want to quit believing I can. That's sort of where I find myself in approaching life. Keep going for perfection. Keep finding that reality comes in under that, and you will have climbed more stairs if we're going to have a vertical by the end. You will have had more quality. Your roots will have been deeper and wider inside and out, vertically and to the south, than if you didn't chase that perfection. The challenge for me is when reality comes in and it's served, and the bell's rung, and there's no more time to take the test. When you see that you didn't make a 100, and you made an 88, how quickly can you go instead of going, "Oh, dude," or how quickly can you go, "All right, 88, not bad."

Yeah. So again, that pursuit of an ideal, plus the practical, what's the next, solid step.

And I, I work to become, uh, I work to, try and remain as much as I can, to feel satisfaction in that reality. But that's the hard part is how quickly can you go from like, I've never, I say this all the time, and I don't like it to be misconstrued. I've never made a film that lived up to my expectations. I've never given a performance that lived up to my expectations. I've done films that I think are a lot better than I could have done. And I'm not saying, "Oh, I should have directed." I'm saying, "That was a, it's a great piece of art." Not just transcendent. It didn't change the, the world or tap into a piece of humanity that enlightened myself and everyone else on a unanimous level.

That's what I'm going for. But I had never done it. So why? And again, I've worked, and people have made films I think are outstanding and better than they would have been if I would have been the director, for sure. But that's part of, I think maybe why when I do do good work or make good creations or good art, I think that was part of it that I was going for,

the infinite pure spot in space that was immaculate.

Yeah.

Believing I could achieve perfection, but knowing I couldn't.

But I still like to believe.

I mean, my, my favorite word in the world is unanimous.

What?

I mean, unanimous. We don't have as many black and whites today, man. Maybe it's something unanimous that we can all agree on. Maybe it's a value. Maybe it's a, it's a way of making a living. Maybe it's a piece of art. You just unanimously go, "No, [snorts] that's just, that's great. It's a one of one."

But you seek unanimous. Sammy Davis Jr., "I don't know what success is. I know what failure is. That's trying to please everybody." You know what I mean? You seek, you ain't going to get it.

There's no way. But

you still believe it.

Come on. To keep believing it. I don't know. I feel like it keeps me in the chase. Keeps me in the race.

Yeah.

Keeps me going, almost. [laughter] [clears throat] Okay. Okay. You know, yeah, I like that.

You have to live like that. Like, there, there's a, there's a joy to live like that. And, and it's a joy again, you know, it's been the theme of our discussion today. It's almost like being able to accept both. Like you said, you believe you can, knowing you won't,

right?

And it's that what makes it beautiful? Because if you only believe you can, then you'll be really disappointed when it doesn't happen, right?

And if you only know you'll never get there, then, well, you'll never do anything.

So, so it goes back to that same, yeah, that same piece. So, so on your ranking score, where is Interstellar of your performance? Where do you go in Interstellar? Yeah. Where are you like, your performance? Like, that's not, to us, it's perfect.

Uh,

to you, it's not. So, what, what is the,

No, no, I think it's, I think it's very good. And I, and I think the movie is really good. I think, I think the character is really good. I think my performance is really good.

Um, I have appreciation for it. And I know, if I'm boing or if I'm birdie. And I know when I'm like, I've seen myself on screen, you kind of bullshitting there, kind of [laughter]. And then I've seen, I'm like, bam, okay.

Um, so,

it's still 88, like you know. Yeah, yeah. Well, but I'm also, as you know, from the book, I'm not into extra credit. I don't like 4.2 GPA. That tells me, like, what happened? Are we then, we're not giving the right test? If four was the pinnacle,

you know,

that means not many people should be getting it, if anybody.

Yeah. So now we're getting 4.2s, 4.4s. That tells me we've overleveraged the original task, or we've added amnesty or too many places to, to not do the, the, have the real competence and merit at the task that you're supposed to get because especially, I think, in the West, because we want everyone to feel really great. Participation trophies. 4.2 GPA. Well, I feel better. All right, got the 4.2 GPA. Start getting a 3.8 education. The credit that extra credit we give is sort of balanced with the debit of the actual what we learn from it, sometimes if we give too much extra credit.

So, what, what validation do you pursue?

My wife, my children. Um, I have a council in the sky, three people that are extremely important to me in my life. My dad, Penny, Allen, and John Cheney. And I see them, wink at them, talk with them, listen to them, seeing run ideas by them, run decisions by them. And then I look up and see what their reaction is. And, and, and, and I, it's been a very trusted council for me. Um, it's sort of my way to give people, practical people, physical bodies and souls that are no longer with us here on earth physically, [snorts] to put them in a heaven sense. And it's a connection. They're, they're a conduit from God to me.

And I have no expectations of them. And sometimes when I'm so excited, like, "Isn't this great?" I look up and they're not dancing. I'm like, "Why aren't you dancing?" Got other times where two of them will be dancing and one of them hidden. And I have to go through, "Oh, why is that? Something they don't understand? Or are they the underdog? And I need to be listening to them because that's why they're going, 'You know better than that. I don't agree with that.'" Um, and then sometimes all three of them are, you know, my dad's got a, you know, dancing in his underwear with a Miller Lite and a piece of lemon meringue pie. Penny's up on a chair, screaming out loud. And buddy John Cheney, just leaning back in his old cotton yellow shorts, as he'd do with his shoulders back, going, "There you go, b." Yeah. So I think their validation, and that's a conduit to a practical conduit in my imagination because I don't have a picture in my mind of God. Um, and I don't, I don't think we can or should. I think that minimalizes, um, you know, we have pictures of, of physical beings that have walked the earth that we can call prophets and stuff, but of God, I don't have a picture. I don't think it's an "it" or anything like that. Um, so, and then, I mean, look, inherently, that all brings me back to seeking my own,

Mhm.

my own validation. Um, you know, I try to measure how I counsel and referee myself off of some of the people I just brought up to you.

So, that's where I pretty well stick. That's where I prove it. I, I don't, I don't really look outside that that much further outside my circumference.

Just because.

I can't. It's too fickle.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's too, I can't really. I don't have a trust. Again, that goes, that Sammy Davis Jr., you trying to look around and go, "Does everyone approve?"

Yeah.

Uh, it's going to be, it's going to be lonely and hard and, not necessarily the best for you. You know what I mean? And I know I've pulled some things off my life where I, you know, people thought I changed and made it, "Wow, what a recreation." I'm like, "I'm doing the same thing. You just put it in bold print now. I was doing the same thing 15 years ago." You know what I mean? Sometimes we change by saying the same. And then other times,

again, as we talked about in the beginning of the conversation,

you give yourself time to daydream. You pick out a new tact about how to maybe go about something, a new way of uncovering something, a new way of solving something, a new way of finding satisfaction in a situation, a new way of dealing with a crisis, a new way of, uh, dealing with success. You know, looking at it from a different point of view, just to have another almost ammo arrow in the quiver. And how in this hunt is life.

How does someone like you, who built their career on control, grasp the concept of trust?

I'm a trust-first guy. I come here today, whether we had never talked before. I have, I have nothing in my head going into anyone's situation. Wonder if they're trying to get me. Oh, is he going to ask a tricky question? Oh, is he trying to play a guy? I don't. Uh-uh. Because that'll hang me up. I won't be able to freely think and go. Now, at the same time, have I been doing this long enough where before I'm about to say something, or as I'm saying it, I can go, "Oh, if you don't finish this sentence right, that's going to be a headline in a rag bag or something." You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Oh, that's not going to be the headline you want.

I'm conscious enough of that. But I'm a trust-first guy. And I've been, and I've been burned. And I'm like, "I'll make that bet again." Because I know that I put that, if I put more trust on, how do you, it's going to do something to you where maybe you aren't the most trustworthy. I've seen people become more trustworthy. I've seen people give more because they go, "Oh, this guy's given me a massive amount of trust. He just empowered me, dude."

Yeah. Yeah.

He just gave me, he saw a dignity in me that I didn't see. He's given me a license, a privilege, some hoot spa to go, "Oh, okay."

And I believe in that. And I, I see that in people. And it's a bit of that, you know, may what we give from our soul get a like response from others. I believe in that reciprocity. I'm a trust-first guy. I don't [clears throat] the residuals for going through life without trust. Oh, that sucks.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I also, you know, I trust myself more now than maybe I used to. And I think that's just come from growth and evolution and, and, and, you know, I used to always be a guy who, and I'm still a guy who, I don't like drawers. I like my stuff laid out.

I want to see it. Because if it's in the drawer, I'll forget I even needed it. I want to see it. I was always a guy who's like, if I'm going to come in this room, I'll make sure that my keys to the keys to my, the door in the other room, on the kitchen table. Leave that door cracked. I'm have more confidence now to go, "You can shut the door. I know where I left the keys. I don't have to look over my shoulder again."

I had this spiritually when I went into True Detective. I was in a really strong spiritual place. And that character, my relationship with God at that time was really strong. That character went into some philosophical nihilism and things that are like away from faith. I was able to go, "I'm locking in and not looking back for five months."

Wow.

And I don't need to look over my shoulder because I know when I come out of this, my relationship's good back there. I don't need to peek over my shoulder to make sure I don't have a, I, I had the trust earlier. And many other times in my life, I wouldn't have had the trust to go that far because I'm like, "Hang, is this okay? Am I about to get struck by lightning here? Is this blasphemous?" You know what I mean? "Are we good?"

You know, okay, I'm just acting.

You know what I mean? So, I, I had a great amount of trust. I'm strong spiritually then to go. And when I feel stronger spiritually, is that, you know, the foundation's stronger? We can jump higher. We can go further. We can not look over our back as much and trust. And, you know, and we travel and trusting relationships. And, away from the kids, I'm away from the kids right now. It's been a week, okay? But we check in. Yeah. Does FaceTime help with trust? Yeah, because you get to more than just a phone call. But the idea of the very simple, natural ideas of going, "Hey, it's 10:00. I'm, we're on the phone. I'm on one side of the world. You're on the other. But we're both under the same moon. We're both under the same sun. The sun you're under right now just hasn't got to me yet. But it'll be the same one. And the moon that I'm under right now just hadn't got to you, but it's, it's coming." There's a,

again, that time now we're getting into the cyclical time you're talking about and not the linear where we feel like, "Oh, I'm losing

Yeah.

a day." No, it's coming around. It's, it's, it's all balance. There's a trust I get from that.

And then another trust I get is if I'm, you know, it's in between that. It's, it all, it means everything, means nothing at all.

Yeah.

In between there.

Yeah. How do you, yeah. That like I love that there. So, how do we live like that? So, again, trust. If I'm going to go to the fatalist side of, uh, uh, um, what I do doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. I'm going to die, dude. What doesn't matter? I used to not have the trust to go, "Oh, but I'm going to still do every bit of the work to make sure." And that I'm put my hands on the wheel.

Mhm.

Right. So to go, "Oh, it doesn't matter." It's what I'll tell myself if I'm nervous. I'm going to go give a speech or something. I'm prepared. I busted my tail and broke the sweat to get prepared. I'm full. Now, if I trust that, and I know I did that. Now, I need to tell myself, dude, this doesn't matter.

Yeah.

You're gonna die. What does the hell does this matter? Because I know I'm not going to go be lazy and then prepared and f off. So, now that I trust that I will, that I'm prepared, and I take it very seriously, now I come to the, I like to end it with a, "Well, no."

Yeah.

"None of this matters." Yeah. Yeah.

To relax. If I go, you know, too much the other side, I'm, I'm, I'm tight. I'm trying, I'm trying too hard. I'm not, I'm not giving myself the freedom to to listen and, and, and riff and take somebody's answer and go with it. You know what I mean? So,

that's, that's how I try to balance the two, you know?

But that took, but I didn't, 20 years ago, if I'd have said, and with some of us in life, if you tell them, dude, none of it matters. It's all fate. It's all going to happen, and it'll all happen. It's going to happen. People will just f off.

Yeah.

And go like, "Well, it doesn't matter how I treat you or treat me." And you're like, "No, it does." But can you trust that you're not going to be a tyrant when you let yourself off?

Yes.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well said. It's that, that balancing act in everything we're talking about. Everything. We just keep coming back to that. Like to be able to believe that what I'm about to do is important, and then have the ability to embrace my own insignificance,

at the same time, is is beautiful. Like,

there's a quote I always remember hearing as a kid is like, you're just a, you're, you're, you're this, the smallest grain of sand in the palm of God. And for whatever reason, very early on in my childhood, when I heard that, that felt power from that. I didn't feel small. I felt like, "Wow, how cool. How awesome." Yeah. And in that is the idea of like, it all means something and none of it matters at all.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's very easy to look, think of that that analogy and go, "Oh, well, so I don't matter." No. Oh, but can that grain of sand in the palm make you go, "Oh, no. I matter more than I thought."

Yeah. And, and it's both.

Yeah.

And it's both. And it's, yeah. I remember we were on a beach in South India. I was with my, my monk teacher, and we were on a walk. And it was a bunch of young monks with my teacher. And it's a big fishing town. So, South India is very known for being a fishing community. And there'd be loads of fish nets with full of fishes. And then there'd be the few that had fallen out on the, on the beach. As we were walking, and whenever we'd walk past one, my teacher would pick it up and put it back in the water. It was still, you know, tossing up and down on the, on the beach. And we were just looking at the whole beach in front of us. And there were like hundreds, maybe, I don't know, maybe thousands of fish that had fallen out of the nets that won't go to be cooked in a restaurant, but won't make it back to the ocean.

Yeah.

And probably, he was just, every time we'd walk past, he'd pick one. And we'd be like, we said to him, like, "We're not going to be here all day. And there's no chance we're going to get to all of these."

And, and he was like, "Yeah, but to that one fish, that's their whole life." Like, you know? So, to you, it's like, "We're not going to get to 400." Because to you, it's, and so it's both. It's like our, our work is insignificant,

but it's significant.

And, and then that goes back to that, that, that we can get paralyzed, you know, the, "Think globally, act locally" is another term of, you know, I mean, you get paralyzed, think, "But I can't. It's too much." Instrumental now. I just do the, do one in a row.

Yeah. One at a time. One step.

Just one, one at a time. And, you know, the sun sets, and you had to be home by dark, and there's still some fish slipping. Well, get on home. And you didn't get them all, but you got, you were in the asset section. Sometimes that, I think, is how I deal with maybe letting myself off, trying to figure out a proper balance of forgiveness and saying, "No, the buck stops here."

You know, some things, I, I'm like, man, I'm not, I don't feel like I'm, this is magic, or this is absolutely beautiful, or this is absolutely true. I'll go, "Okay, not everything in life's going to be that, but are we in the asset section?"

Are we in the black, so to speak? Is, is the thing you're doing, uh, uh, uh, on a proton, not [laughter] not an electron? Is it? Yeah, it is. Does it not harm? You know, sometimes, you know, I mean, I do this in work. Some scenes are magic. They come to life. You just know. Some scenes, you get in, you're like, "Dude, I'm just connecting the dots. Let's just get out of here without, you know, I don't have a great truth to tell. Let me just get out of here without telling a lie."

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I have to let myself off and go, "Not everything's going to be a wow, magical truth. Sometimes it's just till the soil and don't tell the lie. Don't,

don't trip yourself. Don't hit the ball out of bounds."

Yeah.

"Take one in. It's in the rough. Yeah. You didn't out of bounds. You're still, you're still playing. Stay in the, just stay in the game on the upside." You know what I mean? Sometimes it's just that. I remember I had an acting teacher. I did a performance one time, and I was real happy with it. And she came back. She was like, "Not bad, but every single scene, it's like you're trying to hit a grand slam, Matthew. Sometimes you need a single."

Sometimes you need to take a ball that was not in the strike zone. [snorts] Sometimes you need to lay down a bunt. Sometimes you need to." I was like, "Oh, that's right. Not everything's a grand slam. It's not every single thing matters. If we think, you know, it's like if we think every single thing is significant and everything matters, we'll be, nothing will have significance. [laughter]

Yeah.

We'll be paralyzed by minutia and details,

and stats,

that will, there will be no baseline to any of it. There will be no song. It'll all be notes.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. The idea of significance evaporates if everything was significant.

Yeah.

There is no, there would be nothing that stands out or special. Yeah. It just wouldn't, it wouldn't hold. The idea wouldn't hold anymore.

Yeah. What's it, the first when I asked you the question about validation, the first person that came to your, um, at least what you said out loud was your wife, um, who's here to. And, uh, I was wondering, what, what do you feel is the biggest mistake we make about love?

Biggest mistake we make about love. Groovy, groovy question. Thank you. And she's back there probably listening right now, going, "I can't wait to hear this answer." I think one of the biggest mistakes that I think I know I could make is taking it for granted.

Again, it's on the same topic we've been on. You vow to love each other and say, a marriage, for instance, and it's through sickness and health until the death, and "I love you." My love's not in question. That doesn't mean it doesn't take maintenance. To take it for granted that, "Oh, that's, we're fine. I take it for granted. Oh, we got, you know, we got the kids, the family, it's all great." To take that for granted sometimes and not do the maintenance, which shouldn't feel like work, but is it's, it's, it's conscious. It's, it can take work. It can be a thought and a choice you make to go, "That little thing. I'm making my tea. She's not up. I really want to get to that puzzle for those eight pieces. Want to make her one, put it in a Yeti, and have it covered so when she gets up, it's ready." A little, a little thoughtful thing like that. Was that work? No. Is that delayed gratification for the relationship? Yes. You know, that's going to, you know, that that that that'd be a nice thing to do for them. If I don't do it, it's not going to be missed.

As a, as a small example.

I think another one with love, and you and I touched on it, I think, before cameras were recording, is the idea that you find "the one," and that's the one. And, and, and, and wow, I make the male makes them Wonder Woman, and they think we're Superman. Oh, don't do that to me. And don't let me do that to you. I can't live up to that.

You can't live up to that. Back to unanimous and seeking perfection. That's a tough nut to handle when you're like, project that on someone. That's unfair to project onto them, and they project it on you, and neither one of you can live up to it. It's the idea of the, and, and, and, and this is not a popular statement with my wife, but [laughter] I think it's for me, it's true. And I hope, maybe, maybe I'm too practical about love. Maybe I'm not romantic enough about it, but I don't see how the honeymoon period lasts forever. I just, the honeymoon is all on the hope, the possible. We don't know each other as well as we're going to know each other. It's before we get married and we make the consecration and the covenant of marriage. And now we're getting into some real stuff, and we got real pains and real pleasures and real responsibilities and real fatigue and real wins together. And we're building. We've expanded and got a family. And oh man, we're bonfire. But that's harder. And it's not honeymoon's only in the, the, the perfection stage. It's only in the up in the air. Wow. The, the, the, the youth of it, the beginning, the springtime, the fresh bud. And I love it. But it's, if you try to hold on to that 100-watt bulb to be the light all the time, you're Wonder Woman, I'm Superman. It seems to me humanly impractical to live up to it and unfair to each other.

There's a preacher down in San Diego, my buddy Mark Norby turned me on to. I'm forgetting his name, but he talks about, "No, no, no. Love's [clears throat] more like a, it's a 30-watt bulb. Dim the light a little bit. It'll last longer. It'll illuminate longer. Not as bright, but it'll last longer." And it's more realistic for you and her.

It's more human. And it's still lovely. Has always stuck with me. Is a,

I've never heard that. Yeah, you know.

It is true. Whi, which honeymoon period lasts as it is? And things can go deeper and be more powerful and be more profound, but not be the same. And that,

if you just dated someone new for three to six months every year, you'd experience honeymoon period every year for the rest of your life. Peter, the honeymoon, fresh, it's transient. It was all brand new, but it didn't have all four seasons. You didn't get into act two where the conflict comes, where somebody's getting sick.

Yeah.

Where you didn't get to act three where you got to land the plane and figure it out and come down and be on your deathbed going, "Love you, too."

Yeah.

"Hey, we did, we did all right." You know what I mean?

I always, it's a, I'd always in my younger years, like, what, what do you think? If there's a God and you see him, what do you, what do you do? He's going to say to you? I was always like, "I think he's going to say, 'Thank you.'" [laughter] And then this hit me five years ago. Five years ago, I was like, "No, that's a bit arrogant there, P. What he's probably going to say, mean, he's going to say, 'You're welcome.'"

And that is an inherent sort of, what are we doing? You know, is life long? Is it short? Is it hard? Is it easy? I don't know. It's hard in some ways. It's really long. It's really short. Easy sometimes. But, yeah, "You're welcome." I can say, "Thank you." Yeah, but I've got a, yeah. We've talked about, I'm happy to, I'm happy to, and I'm not going to shy away from with still being sensitive to people, musicians that are like, "Easy for you to say, MC. Hey, I'm saying 'you're welcome' to me." You know what I mean? I'm not living a life of, I, I, I want to be open and understand that. At the same time, I'm very happy and level-eyed with with saying and believing that, um, and having a life where if I meet God, he, she, it's going to go, "You're welcome." And then lays into that, I wrote it in Greenlights, but I do have a hunch that the world's conspiring to make me happy. Again, I may be off my rocker. I may be, I may be a, a conspiracy theory for the upside. I may be delusionally optimistic. And I, I don't care. I, I actually believe it. It's the trust-first thing.

Mhm.

I actually believe it. And I believe I'm a part of a lot of other people's army that are there conspiring to make them happy. And I believe that I've got a lot of an army that are going, not consciously, just, "I look, I believe, I know I got a lot of people in my life that believe, know that if I'm around, I'm looking out for them, and I have their best interest in mind, whether they know it or not consciously." And I know I have a lot of people in life, some I know, a lot, I know a lot I don't, that are like, "Looking out for you, MC." And I'm very thankful for that. But I believe that. And I, I know it's true.

Do you think we can all build that belief?

Yes, I do think we can build that belief.

That everything's conspiring.

I don't think we can rely on that belief. I do think we can build that belief. I do think that raising, you know, kiddos, we're going to ACL, kiddos. We're going in backstage. Come on. Me and your mom are here. Pass the security guard. Lets us in. Did y'all say thank you? Yeah, we did. Or no? Well, go, go say thank you. Why? I don't know. Let's think selfishly, bud. 10 years from now, when you're at the concert and your mom and dad ain't here, who got you in backstage to the, to the front of the line? And you're 20 people back in the line, and they're saying, "No more. That's it. There's a chance." That security guard may look down there and go, "Hey, Levi, come on up. Come on in." Because you said thank you. I'm not saying be that way for like, "Oh, then I can get more. I'll get more privileges." I'm just saying where you go, how you interact with people, at whatever height, in the back kitchen, to the back door, to the alley, to the homeless, to the billionaire, to the pres. How you interact with people. It's, it revere, it re you're slowly building an army. I, I had this, I tell this example, and, uh, I was coming home about two years ago, two-lane highway, and it was all parked, just going kind of a traffic jam. Was taking, we just moving 5 miles an hour, stop. 5 miles an hour, stop. And there was a lady in a car here, and we just moved into this new home. Lady in a car here. And everyone's like, you know, get forward as quick as possible. And she was waiting to get into the turn. And so, like, I was like, "We're not going anywhere." I slowed down, let her in. 15 minutes it takes to get home. I'm noticed, I'm right behind this lady. As I approach my house, she pulls in the driveway, the first driveway before I get to my house. I pull in my house. I get out of my car. It's my neighbor.

[laughter]

I didn't know it was my neighbor, but I'm like,

I GOT SOMEBODY inherently watching over my house when I'm not here from now because I let her in.

Yeah.

Back there.

Yeah.

And she goes, "Thank you for letting me in back there." I remember that. Did I do that because,

I'm hoping I can get a neighbor and part of an army that can keep an eye out for me? No. Did I get an army, someone on my side?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The conspiring point too. I think if you, if you believe that everything is conspiring for you to be happy, you just start to notice those moments. And I think noticing is so much more important than

thinking. Because we all think, but we don't always notice.

Yes.

It's like, what do we notice every day? If you notice the security guard who opened the door, if you notice the, you know, the lady who eventually becomes part of your army at home, it's like, what are you noticing? Because you can notice both. Like, I think I could sit here with you, and I'm sure you could tell me two stories. One story of everyone who screwed you over, took advantage of you, exploited you, where the trust-first didn't work.

And I think you're telling me another story today, which is you noticing, which is you saying,

"Oh, yeah."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, what do we, yeah. What do we notice? What are we aware of? What do we give credit to? I think that's part of the athleticism of life. Because that doesn't mean I'm not skeptical.

Correct. It does mean I'm not cynical. It doesn't mean I'm not clever and wise and letting my home be just pillaged. And I got a lot to protect, and I protect it. It doesn't mean I'm foolish with myself or with my things and my life and the family and things I've built. But yeah, what do I, what do, what do we notice? What do we give credit to and go, "Oh, let's tend that garden. Let's multiply that. Let's get some compound interest on that ROI. Let's make that epidemic, not the disease, not the wreck, not the harm." I talk about it in points of prayers. Make the positives plural.

Yeah.

And the negatives singular.

Yes.

And don't talk about the negatives.

Amen. Yeah.

In the present tense. If they happened, talk about them in the past tense. You stop their path to prophecy. That's the noticing thing. And that doesn't mean, don't, oh, no. I don't see the negatives. No, no, no. That's childhood. Hey, Hallmark card. Dream it. You can do it. Positive thinking. Yeah. See how far that gets you. You know what I mean? You'll be done unto. And then, you know, so we go from innocence to naive to skepticism. And then if we can hold off there from going off the ledge into that fourth one, which is a disease, cynicism.

M.

I'm all for skepticism and noticing the negative, seeing the harm, noticing the disease, but sure like to spend time and notice more and compound the interest on the prevention of those cures or the multiplied factor of the good things that are conspiring to work for us and are just like, "There we go." That works not only for me, for you too.

Mhm.

Make those epidemic again. I love flip, flip, flip. The word epidemic's always used. It's just something like, "Oh no."

Just like consequence.

We all go, "Oh, I don't, not the consequence." Like, "No, get consequences with everything."

And the positive side, the pleasure side of consequence is just as valuable as the negative. You got to, you know.

Epidemic, selfish, consequence. Those are the three that, that you're going to fight for. Matthew, I could talk to you for hours and hours and I've been so grateful for your time and energy. We, we end every episode with a final five, which we did last time. So, we've reconstructed them for you. Uh, these questions have to be answered in one sentence, but I'll probably want you to riff. So, feel free. Don't, don't feel any pressure.

Okay? But try to get them out in one sentence.

You can try, but if, but I would like you to, I want you to free flow, but yeah. [snorts]

You're always the best when you're free flowing. So, I don't want to, I don't want to hamper you. And, yeah. Uh, question number one, what do you believe makes a good dad?

Time being there. You know, I say this is

That's what makes a good father. You know, sometimes we're under the illusion that if we make the baby, we're the father. No, you're not. You may be the the daddy papa, but it takes time to be a father, to be there for your children, to balance sharing with them what you already know so they can learn a little quicker and hold them back and letting them fall from that tree limb and bruise their arm on their own because that's how they'll remember.

Because even though you knew sometimes there's certain heights I call it like tree limbs or certain kids go out on limbs and if we brush every limb they go out on I mean they're on the limb and they're they're they're 5 years old and it's it's 5 feet above the soft St. Augustine grass. If we rush over there and go get down get down get they No, no, no. You're going to you're going to stunt their growth and their they have fear of heights. Kids don't aren't aren't scared of heights until they die. Until they fall, right? Let them go out there. That's a safe fall. May get a bruise.

Now, there's certain ones if they're 60 feet up [clears throat] and it's a concrete you might want to go. Hey, bud. I was thinking come just take your time and come on over to the trunk and shimmy on that. Maybe get a help them get them down from that. But certain limbs, let them get on the end of it. Let them let them fall. Let them let them get bruised. Let them. They'll remember that from experience.

And so, yeah, >> I like it. Uh, question number two. What does it mean to be a real man?

>> To be a real man? Well, you know, staying on the fatherhood thing, and this is not just the the only definition, but I'll piggyback off the last question. The only thing I ever knew in life I wanted to be was a father. And it is because I remember I was 8 years old. My dad was a big yes sir and no sir man. So he would introduce me to his friends, right? And I would always as 8y olds looking up from four, five, six, seven, eight years old shake their hand. Yes, sir. Nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet you. And what hit me at 8 years old was that all of those men whose hands I shake and called them sir, they were dads. They were fathers. And in my 8-year-old mind, I went, "Oh, that's how you make it. That's success." Become a father. That's how you become a man. That's how you become a king. So, that's not answer across the board, but that's going to be my answer.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Uh, and I I'll only do three because of time. Um, last one. What does it mean to be a good friend?

>> Yeah. Yeah. A good friend reminds their friend of the the best in themselves, the truth in themselves. Whether it's there to say, "Yeah, just like that when they are the most themselves or whether it's there to go, hey, you know, you got this other way. I mean in the situation you handle it like this and it was so pure man and it kind of didn't go that way this ah so saying hard things and helping them kind of renegotiate or showing to them objectively hey I see who you are you've shown me who you are and then when you're you I'm over here going and uh I take great pleasure in seeing you succeed without me.

>> Wow. Wow. That's powerful.

>> A good friend really takes honest and earnest pleasure in seeing their friend succeed with without them.

>> We to end we got a little note from a good friend of yours.

>> Oh. uh who sent it in and I think it'll be better if you read it out loud than me because it's for you and so I'm gonna hand it to you and you can uh read it out loud for us.

>> What do we got here?

>> I marvel at how you move through this world. Amazing actor, bestselling author, innovative entrepreneur, first rate father, husband and son, but more than anything a brilliant philosopher. And it is that philosophy that pervades everything you do. One that intertwines curiosity with poetry. From the time I met you nearly 30 years ago, I knew you were my brother. And you continue to inspire me to this day. Love you, buddy. Wood. PS. Miss our cuddle time. Me and Camila. THAT IS [laughter]

>> PERFECT.

>> YEAH.

>> AH, thank you, buddy.

>> Thank you.

>> He is a great friend. He is a great friend. Boy, he is a good friend to me. I love the way that he loves >> me.

>> It's really, really beautiful to receive.

>> Well, Matthew, thank you for your time, your energy. uh whether I'm reading your books, whether I'm in your presence, or whether I'm listening to you. As I said to you before the first time I interviewed you, I listened to your acceptance speech from the Oscars every day for 30 days once upon a time in my life. And there only two speeches I've done that with. One is Steve Jobs's commencement speech at Stamford and one is your acceptance speech. I listen to it every day for 30 days. And it it intern I find when you do that it internalizes ideas and um concepts and energy in a way that you don't get if you don't repeat. So very grateful to you for your life, your work and

>> you're welcome and thanks for sharing that with me, man. Yeah,

>> thank you so much.

>> Had a wonderful time.

>> Appreciate you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin on how to break into your most creative self, how to use unconventional methods that lead to success, and the secret to genuinely loving what you do. If you're trying to find your passion and your lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one for you.

>> Just because I like it, that doesn't give it any value. Like, as an artist, if you like it, that's all of the value. That's the success comes when [music] you say, "I like this enough for other people to see.