Transcription
okay any questions? we got a couple minutes for that. how can somebody know they're working Tois or they're getting closer Tois? how do you know your like your progress? okay, well, it's good question. uh, on one hand you don't want to think about too much about that, right? because you know what what's the next thing that will probably slip in? Pride. oh look how much you've grown, look how great you are, look how much better you are than everybody else, right? you've got to focus on humility. but on the other hand, how do we know? how do we know? well, you'll get moments. you'll get moment these these insights in your life where you realize where you've come from, right? you realize what you used to be like. and that is actually that like when when you realize that what how do you stay humble? you remember where you came from and who gave it to you. where does the grace come from? you remember that yeah, I'm a sinner. look at all these terrible things that I did in my in the past, how I've been unfaithful to God, but yet he loves me anyways and he's given me this Divine his Divine Life, right? the other measure is love. it's the ultimate measuring stick really. and that usually humbles us. like sometimes we think like oh great, I've come along so far, right? and then you you think to yourself like have I grown in love for God? have I grown in like a greater Zeal for him and and it is a greater desire to serve him? and you think oh like I've got a long ways to go. or how how much do I love my neighbor? and if if I'm like weak and if I'm got a very small love for my neighbor, then I know that I'm just starting, right? no matter how much I think of how much progress I've made, how far I've come along, if I don't have love for God and for neighbor, I'm just a novice.
yeah um father, so I've I've heard of this concept in the East called holy tears, and that that has to do with repentance. uh, could you elaborate maybe a little bit on that and how that ties into theosis? sure. so holy tears kind of is like it it's uh it's kind of like a gift of this of the Spirit, uh, that um it's one of the kind of like the beginning stages. it's at the beginning of our turning towards God. it's usually attached with uh like uh kind of repentance and conversion. and um uh it's also it I mean it kind of it it's for uh like cleansing. it cleanses our heart like through this kind of this deep um uh repentance and turning towards this kind of like mourning, but it's not a Mourning on its own, right? uh there's you you receive with this gift a great comfort. blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. and this is where you know that it's that it's a a gift of the Spirit, uh, that you feel this great embrace. you don't feel like just like as if you're kind of depraved and uh a total nothing and that you're worthless and that you know that you know just this great sadness and almost like a depression that comes over you because I'm crying. it's the spirit who's who's bringing you into a deeper deeper kind of uh state of repentance uh over your own self, over your own sins, over the sins of the world. and kind of it then it it's tied with this great comfort, this embrace, the Divine Embrace.
okay so H how important are emotions in the spiritual life? like are we to completely discredit our emotions, or what's the kind of right balance to strike with that? ah, good question. so um uh traditionally Christians were always uh suspect of emotions, okay? it's not something that we uh gauge or like um our spiritual progress or spiritual we don't use emotions to kind of like move us in a Direction one way or the other. uh we always give way to uh kind of uh to uh kind of rational thought. uh we we strive to kind of like discriminate and to judge properly, uh, cuz emotions come and go, right? so like um and they can be overwhelming, right? like they can be you know they can sweep you in one way: you can be enthusiastic and just kind of go and you're empowered, but then that runs out of gas and all of a sudden you're just like done. or uh it can pull you in the opposite direction where you feel this like a total emptiness or you know you feel like a great sad sadness and uh you know you feel like oh I'm worth nothing. well, like well you can't really allow your emotions to kind of dictate and to kind of move you in one way or the other. emotions come and go. uh like the the gift of Tears is not really like an like a an overwhelming emotional experience. it's not like you you don't you're not like a a pool of like a just become a pool, right? of uh when you receive the gift of the of Tears with um it's it's hard to describe. it's kind of like um you feel like there's like a stability, but you feel a sense of like uh sadness, but then it's also M mixed with joy, and it leaves you in a state of great peace. so it's not it's not kind of your normal motion and kind of state, right? one way or the other.
so this whole kosis thing, not uh not stoked on that. and I was kind of wondering so when you're going through suffering, when you're emptying yourself out, how do you remember what you're aiming at in those moment? that's a good question. so remember that uh you're not on your own, you're not on your own. uh I'm not I'm not necessarily just talking about like you're part of the body of Christ, but Christ is with you, right? uh this in these moments of suffering, in these moments uh of like cross bearing, uh what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to to unite our suffering with the suffering of Christ, bring it to the Cross, right? and uh you'll notice that actually it gives you a greater sense of purpose. like it it will give you strength to carry your cross because Christ is there with you, and you're inviting him to lift it with you, right? yeah, kenosis can be like the self-emptying. kenosis can be kind of like painful, but any kind of change and any time of letting letting go anything that that means that you're kind of turning the door from one one kind of one way and moving to another, it's not easy. but you know that where you're going, you know that you have a higher sense of purpose, you know that you're not by yourself, you know that Christ is there with you, that he's strengthening you, right?
okay thank you Father. just to clarify, um when the Eastern fathers are referring to passions, would you say that they are in a negative context? are are they referring them primarily to sinful or what the westerners might call concupisent desires, rather than more legitimate expressions of the desire you know the true the good and the Beautiful, Etc? so this would be like the perverted, okay, right? so it's like a perverted desire, you know, like gluttony, right? or Pride, right? like these are just kind of Tendencies towards that. it doesn't necessarily mean that you're like you're actually sinning, right? and it's also part of the fall. like we were created with spiritual Powers, uh you know like for love for communion, but a per version of that is lust, right? and uh and then because we're kind of broken that way, we have a tendency to lean towards that like concupiscence, right? towards sin. if I may just follow up, do the Eastern fathers have a language that they make use of to articulate uh desires that they would consider non sinful, perhaps should be let's say uh in conjunction with reason? Pursuit? well that would be like the virtues, yeah. okay good thank you.
I understand this is like more like a an Eastern concept of um the essence energy distinction. and so from what I understand, theosis is um becoming more part of God's Energies. is is that what you describ? so like uh I guess the like the you can use that like palamite language uh uh to describe kind of uh how this happens, right? and the whole idea behind that is like we know that God is transcendent and he's imminent, right? that he's far and like in his like we cannot exhaust his Essence is beyond us, but yet he is very close to us. and so how do we understand that language like from a human point of view? you know how does he interact with us, right? like well God is there, but he's also here, right? he's he's like bigger than we can ever imagine, but yet he's also like really near to us, like closer to us than we are to like he knows us better than we know ourselves, right? so that uh Gregory palamas just kind of used that language of of essence and energies in order to kind of get at that that mystery, the Grandeur of that, and how God then interacts. like the energies or like the interactions that with his Creation with us. well God is in his Essence God, and in his energies he's God, right? it's not you can't distinguish between the two. would you say that the rovery when it kind of intersects with Western theology is somewhat a linguistic problem or semantic problem? I would say that there's like two systems of theology, right? and yeah, so that part of it is linguistic. um remember that like initially there was some skepticism, uh you know like how does this fit into the Catholic um theology? does it fit into Catholic theology? um and you know because the East and the west then for a long time were separated, they weren't there wasn't a continual striving to understand each other. it was only in the last like since the 1960s, six since the um excommunications had been lifted and uh both sides, both East and the west, but i' I'd say particularly the West has shown more Good Will and a desire, um uh it's not to put down the East maybe the West is bigger, but um uh to try to understand, try to understand these these Concepts and systems of theology. how do they fit? are they contrary? um and I mean well St John Paul II didn't have a problem with it, right? Pope Benedict also saw that it was fine, that it can work with in kind of a cohesive East West uh complimentary theology system, right? um yeah thank you.
um in the process of theosis, is there an actual ontological change in our being as we I guess grow closer to becoming like God? so remember, we don't cease to be human, right? like we don't St being a human being. uh we take on like God's properties, right? he shares that his life with us. um and just like I that good image was that iron, right? the iron was put into the fire, it took on the heat, the glow, the light, but it doesn't cease to be Iron, right? where you can't become like let's say like God in essence, cuz then there'd be like like you know a plurality of gods. there is only one God, and from him life comes forward, right?
this is kind of not really related to theosis, but for both both the East and the West, what you think is like one thing each side has to overcome in order to one day reunite? and if that would ever be, uh you know the re reunification of the, what do you think would be like the biggest hurdle for each of them in their own respect? that's a great question. I think for both of them, um well there's like a foundation for both of them. both of them have to let go of past hurts, uh I think there's both disappointments on both sides, hurts from both sides, you know? um the east east const Constantinople, oh I I I mean not I mean yeah sure, there were disputes during that first Millennium, um you know there was evils and um uh sins committed by both sides, you know like in the name of the church, uh towards each other. uh doesn't necessarily mean that like it was the priests and the Bishops, but remember that like the Emperors and the governor ERS they were all Christian, right? in the first Millennium, well after it became legal and then became the official state religion Christianity, um and so there's you know pains and memories that we need to let go of. um you know like for instance the Crusades, like you know you have Orthodox who still remember the Crusades, you know like 800 years ago, and they're like oh yeah those Crusaders, they're like really. um well don't you remember that St John Paul II when he came to Greece, like the first thing he did when he got off the plane was get on got on his knees, made a prostration, kissed the ground, and asked for forgiveness? you're going to ignore that? so um I think that the East has to let go of those um those pains and those hurts, cuz it's not doing them any good. um and then but it's not just that. I mean there's other things that they pile on. Grievous grievances that they pile on on the uh on the west. uh and then both of the sides, both East and West, you know humbly have to actually like study each other's theology. like really, that's the only way that we're going to get through these controversies and misunderstandings. and we can't we can't continue to like to pass on um you know just the misunderstandings and like strawman interpretations of each other's theologies. that doesn't work. like I always I can't stand it when it's like uh like Western theology is is just presented by Eastern Eastern priests like in a very pitiful way. like do you even know what you're saying? like are you just using this in order to kind of put down the Roman Catholic church? so like if we remember the closer we are to Christ, the closer we are to each other. it's like the fathers of the church talked about that. they use that like the wheel, you know? like when you're outside you're far away from each other, but when you come to the center, when you're United to Christ, you're closer to your to uh the person who was way on the other side than you ever would be, right? so education, we have to get rid of ignorance. we have to be charitable, we have to be humble, we have to forgive on both sides.
yeah um I guess just to finish off, probably um what are some writings or resources that you would recommend for Latin Catholics to kind of I guess explore the Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox uh spirituality and theology? great question. can I defer that to an email? sure, yeah. so I I can send you a list and then that way um instead of me just rattling it off, you can have a look at it. okay, just send me an email to remind me. I will. all right. do you get a blessing father? of course. please stand. the blessing of the Holy Trinity be upon you. we ask this through the intercession of the most holy mother of God, the theotokos, St Anthony, the patron of this temple. in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. amen.