Transcription
Hello, hello, hello! It's Stephanie here. Welcome to episode 90. Oh, this is episode 91 of the Rents to Rent Success Podcast, and today's episode is an exciting one. It's all about property development. That strategy that's always seen as quite sophisticated, advanced. And Mark Lloyd is here today to explain how beginners can get started in property development. I think it'll be a really useful conversation for you all.
Mark recently came to speak at one of our private Rent to Rent Superstars event, and we had such great feedback that I knew that I really wanted to ask him to come onto the podcast as well. So, Mark has been in business for over 32 years, and he's been a property investor for over 16 years. So he's been experienced in every strategy going. He's co-founder of the Property Masters Academy, which specializes in mentoring newer investors, and he's CEO of Max Property Group, an international real estate company that provides bridging finance for property projects through their crowdfunding platform. So it's amazing to have you on the show, Mark. Welcome!
Mark Lloyd: Hi Stephanie, thanks. Thanks for the welcome. Really, really nice to see you again.
Stephanie: Yes, yeah. Well, Mark and I co-host a number, well, one regular Clubhouse room, and Mark's also got his own room. So we've gotten to know each other a little bit more on, on Clubhouse. So before we dive into this development business, Mark, I'd love for you to tell the listeners and viewers a little bit more about you.
Mark Lloyd: Okay. Yeah, sure. So, um, yeah, I've been around quite a long time. And, um, I'm often asked actually, why am I still doing stuff? Because I did retire about 10 years ago when we sold our company. And, um, and I think I kind of narrowed it down over the years as to what the reasons why I keep going. Um, I love what I do, but a lot of it, I think, is down to my childhood and, um, the environment I was brought up in. And it wasn't a, a, uh, a pleasant experience, to say the least. Um, I was brought up in a broken family. So I, I was, my mother left when I was two. Um, and my father remarried when I was four. I was at the wedding. Uh, how many, how many kids could say their parents' wedding? And so, I, I was the oldest boy, and there were three more boys born, uh, in, in that marriage. And, and whilst I didn't appreciate it as much at the time, when I look back on the things that happened, I was treated differently. I wasn't part of the family, for want of a better word. And there's lots of things that stuck in my mind. I have an extremely good memory from my childhood, which a lot of people don't have, but I had because of the childhood I was brought up in. And I mean, I remember most things literally from about the age of two, three, because I do, I'm calling, I do remember living in a slightly different house to where I was brought up. And, and later in life, I was told where that was, so it all came to light. And I think, um, because I was treated differently, and those things said, and before I, I mean, one of the things that's stuck in my mind and still does to this day is that I would never be good at anything. It absolutely wasn't right. I was a waste of space. That, you know, I would never actually be good for anything. And that kind of stuck in my mind, and that's kind of affected my whole life, um, to date. And, you know, when I was at school, I, I had part-time jobs because, you know, my, my, uh, my stepbrothers were, they were getting pocket money, and I wasn't. And, okay, what do I, I'd like some money too. I'd like some pocket money to buy sweets, as kids do, you know, or cakes or whatever that's what you buy, isn't it? So, so, um, so I got a paper round and a couple of other jobs. One time, I was 15, I had four jobs, and that's not doing my GCSEs or O-levels at the time, um, which I got. I ended up with nine of those. I then went on to do my A-levels. I was working part-time in Tesco's over Thursday, Friday, all day Saturday, all day Sunday, and doing my A-levels as well, which I got four of those. Um, and I, I was going to go to university, but I, I just needed to get out. I, I needed to earn money, and I needed to get out of home. And whilst I could have done that with university, I couldn't have earned the money. So I, but by the time I was 19, I was more than double my dad. And that was kind of left a kind of uncomfortable situation at home. So I left home, moved up to, uh, Brixton in, in London. Uh, lived there with a guy for a period of time, and then moved up to North London in Wood Green. And, and this was really, it moved up to London because my job was there. My, my very first job actually, my second job. My first job was in a garage, just being a, you know, the person behind the till and pressing the button, yes, you can fill up now, like that kind of stuff. That bit of power, you know, you can press the button, you, you're allowed to have petrol in your car now. Um, that's my first job. My second job was in a bank, and in the West End, um, just down from the American Embassy, which is where I was based. And I was there for a couple of years, and I got transferred up to Liverpool, and I was transferred to, uh, after that, to actually Middlesex. And I was trying to find him in Surrey. And I'd progressed every transfer I did, I progressed up the, the train, if you like. And I was a manager about someone. I just had enough at that point, and I left. And ever since, I've been self-employed. I've done a number of things, lost quite a lot of money along the way as well, lost just about everything at one point in time, um, when I split up with my wife at the time, and she got custody of my daughter. Um, and it got to quite a low point where I literally, um, could not, I couldn't even rent anywhere because my credit was smashed to pieces. Um, and it was at the time when interest rates, because you're too young to remember this, but interest rates got to 15 plus. Um, and you had to work so hard just to pay the mortgage and the rent. So, but luckily, um, I started a company at that point with a friend, and that friend allowed me to stay in his house, where to live. So, um, so that was kind of the lowest point in my life. Um, and, um, eventually, I managed to get somewhere to rent, but it was very, very hard. And then from there, other things built up. We set up another couple of companies. In fact, to date, I think since that time, I've set up about six companies. I've sold two of those. One was the central heating company, one was a telecommunications company, but we also had an IT company with a telephone number company. Um, and obviously, the couple of property companies as well. Now, um, the other ones have gone by the buy. The last one we sold in 2009 was a telecommunications company, which was probably the nearest I've ever got to passive income because I don't think property can be passive. I think it's more work than people realize, but, you know, it's got fantastic benefits. The telecoms company was passive. I could go on holiday for a month at a time, didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter when I went away. Then the income wasn't, as long as our clients were using the telephone, we were getting paid people's usage. Today, everyone's on the mobile phone all the time. If we kept that, we still had income coming through. Yeah. But like most people, we, we kind of, um, thought, well, we need money to start property. And something that happened in the technical company at the time, we'd lost quite a big client, and it kind of gets, [Music] things happened. And, um, and we were toying with selling the company. Jackie got, uh, invited someone to value the company, and we walked out of the meeting kind of without chins on the floor, thinking, oh, is it really worth that much? So it wasn't a massive amount of money, looking wrong, but at the time, it felt like a lot of money. And so we sold the company, and the sale went through really quickly. But similar sort of time, we, I had a letter through from the Rich Dad Education company, like this, to a property seminar. And it says, yeah, defensive along, this could be our next thing. If you want to do it with me, still, you know, we'd run all these companies. It was like, always like that. When we sold the telecoms company, it was like an endpoint for us, possibly, that we could have gone our separate ways, but we decided to, um, uh, go to this property center. And like, 15 minutes in, we were hooked. We were going, we were doing this. Signed up to their three-day event, and then we went on to the Wealth Builder program. And, um, we actually became mentors with Rich Dad Organisation, very early on. I was a bit kind of shocked by that because being new to, well, not new to business, very new to property, and then I was, I was 10 months in, invited to become a mentor. I don't know anything. I'm only been doing this 10 months, you know? But why they operated it was, it was very much, uh, get new people in, teach the new people as far as they've gone. You know, don't get me wrong, by 10, five months, 10, we had 14 properties. So, I mean, we were doing pretty well. Um, but, um, I didn't feel qualified. And six months later, I left. We left, um, the Rich Dad people, left them alone. So we can just go concentrate on building our portfolio. And, um, [Music] people started following us. And then Facebook wasn't quite fully active then. So we had, uh, it was, yeah, Google Groups. And I, a lot of people were asking, where's Mark gone? Because I was one of the few mentors that actually asked, asked, answered people's questions. And so, uh, they then got my email address. I was getting all these emails every day from people seeking advice. And I was like, okay, I'll just deal with those. You know, and it got to such a stage where it's getting over 200 emails a day. I just couldn't, I couldn't deal with enough. And so I, I said to Jackie, why don't we just put on a one-day training event? We just called it a Property Mastermind Day. Just said, look, invite people along and and limit it to 30 people. Because one of the things that with, um, Rich Dad Organisation, when you went to a training seminar, there was 200 people there. And, uh, all you got was, that's a great, really good question. If we haven't answered it by the end, come back to us. Your question never got answered. So we did this one-day event, and it went down really, really well. Um, and at the end of it, people were asking, that's fantastic. When you do the next one? And we hadn't planned another one. So after that, we, then did one a month for the next year for, just, purely, it was a low-cost event. We included lunch. Because one of my bugbears, we paid 40,000 pounds to Rich Dad Organisation, and we never ever got lunch. Wow. So we had to make our own tea.
Stephanie: Blimey, that's crazy. Yeah. Really annoyed me. So we made sure that lunch was right. And then after about a year doing it, um, I was on holiday one year and with the kids and so on, and in Southern Spain. And my, my, when I was with my then partner, um, she always used to take my mobile away and put it in the hotel safe. I know. Wow. So I, um, so I'd get a notepad from the local shop, notepad and pen, and I'd just make notes. Anything come into my head, I'd make notes. And, uh, I decided to write a business plan, uh, whilst on holiday for the training company for Property Master Academy. And I came back from holiday, just said to Jackie, are we going to continue doing this training stuff? And if we are, let's, we're going to do it seriously. And here's my plan. Or if not, we'll forget it and we'll just go, you know, continue with our property journey. So why do we do both?
Stephanie: So how that kind of developed would be like, well, I really appreciated that, Mark. I like the fact, well, there were so many nuggets in there. One is that you were so hard-working from a young age, and had that drive. You know, there might have been, I suppose, this, um, I was going to say a cloud in every silver lining, but I mean, a silver lining in every cloud. That it was, it was unfortunate, it sounds awful, the way that you were treated growing up, but it did light that fire of ambition in your belly. And you had four jobs, you got 10 O-levels, I think it was, and then four, four A-levels. And then, and then went on to out-earn your father by the time you were 19, doubled his income. And, um, I just want to, you know, give you kudos because that's all phenomenal. And I also wanted to point out, I don't think I'm as young as you think. I think I'm a similar age to you, Mark.
Mark Lloyd: No, you can't possibly be.
Stephanie: Yeah, well, um, let's come back with it. I'm, um, touching up on 50 this year. I'm right. I'm 61.
Mark Lloyd: Okay. Well, it's not, it's that, that's not a huge, huge difference. So I think I was here when we had a high interest rate. I might not have been investing though.
Stephanie: But, um, let's go into development because the thing that really intrigued me, um, that was different about your perspective on it was you talk about how property development can be for beginners. So let's just start at the very basics. When you say property development, Mark, what do you mean?
Mark Lloyd: Well, property development covers quite a broad area, and it's probably one of the more complex strategies, which is what tends to put a lot of people off, apart from the money, which we can talk about in a minute. But it is literally, development could be considered a refurbishment. That, that's, that's development in its smallest kind of form, all the way through to new build and land and everything in between. So commercial conversions, airspace development, where you're building on top of existing buildings, um, where you're reconfiguring a building, all those kind of things is development. You know, title splitting is development because you've maximized the value of the property. And that's really what it is. It's more about maximizing the value of what is there that wasn't there previously. Whereas obviously, the rental side, you're just maximizing in a different way from a rental perspective. Here, we're looking at capital values only. And, you know, I think that that's, that's kind of a broad spectrum. And you, you can, you can add extensions onto that because that again is going to should add value in most instances to a property. So there's lots and lots of different ways of doing it. Um, and, you know, I think I finally believe that, uh, new investors can do it, and we've proved it already. So I know that new investors can actually start with development.
Stephanie: So let's talk a little bit about what are the benefits of doing development, and then we can go on into some beginner examples.
Mark Lloyd: Yeah, sure. So I think the way I look at development is that, um, [Music] it's a, it's actually a relatively quick way of building a rental portfolio as well. Because if you follow the stuff that we teach, then you're going to be looking into bigger projects than you would do normally. As for a rental portfolio, it's individual properties generally speaking when you're starting, and then you perhaps progress to larger buildings, blocks of flats, or commercial, so you can convert to residential, those kind of things. But here, we're starting with that. And if I give an example, um, to my colleague, um, Andrew, who's one of the mentors on the development team, he bought a block of flats about two years ago, 14 flats. All he did was he reconfigured and refurbished. So reconfigured, what I mean was, he, it was 14 one-bed flats. They were large one-bed flats. He changed them into 14 two-bed flats. And I'm sorry, seven two-bed flats and kept seven as one-bed flats. So it was a fair mixture. And I just reconfigured the rooms so they looked, they were laid out better. And he decided to keep those. But that took nine months. So nine months to get 14 properties. Now, I did that from scratch, buying individual properties, but not everybody can do that. And that's hard work, buying 14 individual properties. It's actually less work by a 14 property block of flats than it is buying 14 individual properties. One example where you can actually build a portfolio, and you've got that product at the end of it. You can either sell it, or sell part of it, keep part of it, or keep all of it. Because when you refinance at that point, if you've done your figures correctly, that will be a no money left in deal.
Stephanie: Wow, that sounds hugely attractive. And it's something that, that I've talked about on the podcast before, the magical multi-unit blocks. And the, the other exciting thing about it is that the per unit price of the, of each unit tends to be lower when you buy in a multi-unit block. Now, I know that you're saying this was, uh, one of Andy's deals that you're talking to us about. Do you know, are you able to tell us that the figures, you know, purchase and GDV etc. on that one?
Mark Lloyd: I don't know the top of my head. I know he, he ended up keeping them and refinanced out without, without using any of his own money, by the way.
Stephanie: Perfect. So how was it? Well, let's just, I know we're going to come on to financing later, but let's use this as an example. How did he finance the project?
Mark Lloyd: So for this one, he got 10 joint venture partners who each put in 50,000.
Stephanie: Right, right. And the reason, the reason this happened, he had finance, um, arranged. And this was, uh, around about December time, a couple of years ago. And the bank decided in the middle of December to withdraw the loan.
Stephanie: Wow.
Mark Lloyd: A week before he was due to complete.
Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Oh.
Mark Lloyd: Oh, he just had one week to raise the half a million pounds. And raising half a million pounds sounds like a lot for one person. Definitely. But when you've got 10 people putting 50,000 pounds, much much easier. Or 20 people with 25,000, whichever. And that's what he did. He just went all out and got the money within a week. So it showed with the right motivation. Yes, he was clearly motivated. Um, you can do these things.
Stephanie: Well, while you've been talking, Mark, because my memory library is not great, I've got my calculator out. And kudos to Andy for for getting the money together. And that's the power of experience and having a team and network of people around you who trust you and want to work with you. But I got my calculator and I put half a million into 14. And 36,000 per unit. Which is crazy. Where, where in the country are we? It's in the South. What I mean, I'm not asking for the street name, but what kind of, uh,
Mark Lloyd: It's in, um, um, Somerset. In Somerset. Yes.
Stephanie: Oh my gosh. That's, um, like I said, we're in Newport. I'm always talking about the units that we got, 32,000 pounds per unit. But in Somerset, you've got 36,000 pounds per unit on 14 units. And I'm sure obviously you don't have the figures to hand because it wasn't your deal, but when you refinance that, when you've gone from 14 one beds to seven one beds and seven two beds, that would have been a considerable uplift. You've got all your money out, so then you're getting this 14 unit cash flow with no money left in. So phenomenal.
Stephanie: So I'm glad you brought that up. What I would love to talk about, because there'll be people listening and thinking, okay, well, that's all very well for Andy and other people like yourself, Mark, you're very experienced in property and in this strategy and in business, and you've got access to these type of investors. But it may be, uh, it'd be useful if you could give a case study of perhaps one of your mentees who started out without their own money, who got started in development, of the type of project that they, uh, did, and also the type of way that they financed it.
Mark Lloyd: Yeah, sure. I can give you two examples. So our very first mentee that once decided to do straight into development was a couple of years ago. And we didn't think any of it at the time, but he just wasn't interested in doing a rental portfolio. He didn't want to have anything to do with tenants at all. So, um, now he, Simon, had a lot of money. Okay. He, he could easily go and buy something cash, develop it, sell it, no problem. He could do that a few times. But because what we'd said to him is, well, don't use your own cash. Okay? Because one, you'll become lazy because you think, oh, well, it's only another 10 grand, like I can do that. But if you're using somebody else's money, that's a big difference. So he actually went out to get joint venture money and borrow as well. Now, borrowing as a new investor, a new investor, a new developer, is actually not that difficult because it's not you that the lender is looking at so much. They're looking at your team. So Simon, on his very first project, took him 18 months, but he made 250,000 pounds profit. Now, more recently, we've got one going through at the moment for a guy called Richie. He's joined, he's on the development program. He's literally been in it six weeks. He's got his first deal. That's costing him, uh, 380,000 pounds. Block of three, three flats, or three flats here. Um, and we've allowed a time frame of six to nine months on this. And by the end of it, he would have made between 18 and 100,000 pounds. Sorry.
Stephanie: Oh, 18 to 100,000 pounds? That's what you said?
Mark Lloyd: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So within, within nine months. Now, Richie is a new investor. He'd been on a couple of other training programs, hadn't got very far. And I said, well, look, you know, this is different. I'll tell you why. And so he joined us. And, yeah, he's saying he's got his first deal within six weeks. That's just going through. We're raising, we're actually helping him raise the money on that through our crowdfunding platform, um, as well, which means he will have very little money to put into it, if at all. So that's, that's, that's a very important point.
Stephanie: So we'll talk about Richie then, come back to Simon. So Richie purchased the property for 380,000. And the funds, was it the crowdfunding you raised for the purchase, or is that for the development?
Mark Lloyd: We do it for both. And so using your crowdfunding platform, he was able to work with you to obviously find out how to analyze and structure the deal. And presumably, you checked it all over for him. And then when he was ready to raise the money, then he was able to post onto your crowdfunding platform, is that how it works?
Mark Lloyd: Yeah, that's kind of how it works. Yeah.
Stephanie: And now he's, it's going to go up 80 to 100k. So what are you changing, Mark, with these three flats?
Mark Lloyd: So all he's doing here, so it's a slight reverb because they're all under one title at the moment. Oh, slightly further than the title splits. Yeah. Yeah. And then he's going to sell them.
Stephanie: Yeah. I love it because it's, I love the simplicity of it. And I think the sticking point for people is often the finance. It's the expertise, obviously on analyzing, knowing what, whether, when is a deal a deal, and all of the things to look out for. That is part of it. But then what puts people off is, as well, is the finance. So I think it's very interesting, or very useful for your mentees that you also have that access to the crowdfunding platform. If people do want to know more about the crowdfunding, because I know, where would they go?
Mark Lloyd: They can either contact me, um, or they just go straight to the website, which is maxcrowdfund.com.
Stephanie: Great. Maxcrowdfund.com. All UK inquiries come through me anyway. So, so Mark is on Instagram, and his handle, if you're watching on the video, you'll see it's @marklloydproperty. And if you're listening on the podcast, it's also @marklloydproperty. You can go to renttorentsuccess.com/91, and the link will be there as well. Um, so you mentioned Simon's deal, and because I'm nosy, Mark, I didn't know what he did because his, he's made 250k in 18 months. And what, what kind of project was that? What, how did the uplift come about?
Mark Lloyd: So that that was just converting a large house into four.
Stephanie: Oh, that that's phenomenal as well. Was he selling?
Mark Lloyd: Yeah, selling. Yeah.
Stephanie: And the attraction here was they were on the seafront. Oh, phenomenal. Right out to the English Channel. Yeah. Oh, that just sounds, that sounds incredible.
Stephanie: So Mark, why are people going wrong? What are the biggest mistakes people make when they're getting started in development? Perhaps trying to DIY things?
Mark Lloyd: Um, I think, or one, they try to make the figures fit the deal. Yeah. Always wrong, as you know, in investing. And that's one of the good things that we do is we, we, we check every deal and before it goes forward. And of course, as we're, you know, we're probably going to fund a fair number of these through our crowdfunding platform, the crowdfunding platform won't lend unless the deal is working either. So, you know, it's got to hit certain parameters. And generally speaking, uh, anybody's listening, what you're looking for is a minimum 20% margin. Okay? Or you've got the 20% margin in there, you should be able to get funding. Um, and, you know, I think the, the two thing areas that most people worry about is, I don't know enough, or, and where do I get the money from? And we've covered both angles. I think a kind of strap line for the mentorship was, we'll help you find it, fund it, and build it. Because if you can find it, we'll show you how what to find. We'll show you how we'll fund it, and we'll show you how to build it. Because what is really important to develop, unlike building a residential portfolio from individually, where it's really you, the lender is looking at, on development, it's not so much depending on what the type of development is, it's the team you're using. So for example, if you're going to do, so we've got a commercial conversion that we're in the middle of negotiating at the moment, which will be to convert this building into about 40 flats. Now, clearly, I'm not going to do the work. I don't have experience of building 40 flats. Yeah. So the contractor we use has got to have previously done something similar. Contractor that the lender is interested in. So you, you as a developer, essentially become a deal maker. That's all. And it's knowing how to put the various members of that team to work to your advantage.
Stephanie: Yeah, I love it. And it's something that, as relatively new developers ourselves, we're, we're five years in. We've, we've got, well, we've got developments where we have already bought them as multi-unit blocks and we've just been uplifting them and slightly reconfiguring them or finishing off a conversion. That sort of thing. But we're doing the one at the moment where it is a conversion of, um, a commercial into four separate flats. And the build team is so important, as you said, because that's where the skills are. The build team and the project management. We've chosen to have them separate. But what I'm saying, what I'm trying to say in a very long-winded way, is that it certainly is something that is open to beginners. But I want to ask you, Mark, because obviously development spans a lot of different things, as you were explaining at the beginning. What kind of development projects do you think really suit, let's say, the average beginner who doesn't have a huge amount of previous property experience?
Mark Lloyd: Well, I'm a firm believer of thinking big. I think one of my mentors I had for a short period of time said to me, think big or go home. And so I think, I'm not giving examples, we've got a young lad called Dan, he's on, he's on the mentorship at the moment. Now, he's, he's held mindset. This is often, this is often the problem we have to get over the initial bit, is the mindset. So he came to the development, he said, I've only got, I think it was 35,000 pounds available. So in his mind, he says, well, therefore, that means I can only buy property for whatever, 250,000. Let's say. He put in an offer last week on a building for two and a half million. Because we've now expanded his mindset to realize actually, the 35,000 he's got, whilst it's great to have some money, is irrelevant if we can make the project work. That's what's important. And then we find the money.
Stephanie: Phenomenal. And how, how are you funding that one, just out of interest, Mark?
Mark Lloyd: Uh, so, well, assuming we don't know it's been accepted yet, but if it's accepted, it will be through the crowdfunding platform initially. And then probably with that one, we might need some private investors as well.
Stephanie: Great. Well, I love how it's, it's like a jigsaw, isn't it? You put the puzzle pieces together to create the whole thing. And you've got to have all the pieces of the puzzle, and you've got to know how to put them together, which is where, which is where you come in, really. It's been fascinating hearing about all this today, Mark. Now, other things that you would have loved to have shared today that I haven't asked you about about development that you think are important?
Mark Lloyd: I think, you know, I was saying to your group the other day that really, it's positive mindset, can-do attitude will get you many, many places. And that's really what it needs. I think don't be frightened of development. You know, don't be worried that, oh, this doesn't cost a lot of money. Yes, it's a lot of money, but you won't get that money if the deal doesn't work. It's as simple as that. You know, whether it's us, a crowdfunding platform where we lend, by the way, quite a lot of the percentage of the deal, you know, we'll go up to 80% of GDV, so that's nearly 100% of the money. Um, but other lenders would be exactly the same. The way we view it, they just lend less. And they won't lend you the money unless the deal works. And this is the beauty about development. You're actually getting experienced eyes looking over it and saying, actually, you know what, that doesn't work. Well, you've spent nothing at that point. So it's cost you nothing. But if it works, then you know, wow, okay, the deal works. Now we need to get the deal put together and get the funding sorted and so on.
Stephanie: So brilliant. Um, and I also want to point out that people can check you out at, dot co, propertymasteryacademy.com. And I know you have lots of resources over there, Mark. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it?
Mark Lloyd: Uh, yeah, so we, um, we run a two main mentorship programs. Primarily, we do a few, a couple of training courses here and there as well. We're not, we've never been much into training that much. We've got the development and we've got the rental portfolio builder, and that's really about it. So we focus very much on on mentoring rather than training. So I'm a great believer in results. I mean, in my life, I think lots of people attend many, many different training courses in property in particular, and a lot of people walk away having spent, you know, one, two, three thousand pounds and do absolutely nothing. So I, all I want to do is focus on the people that want to do something, and we will get results, no question about that.
Stephanie: Absolutely. That's a phenomenal way to end. Mark. And so if you're interested, if your appetite's been wet for development, or if you are already involved in development and would like some more information, do visit propertymasteryacademy.com.uk or you can also contact Mark on Instagram at @marklloyd. And so thank you so much for joining us for listening and for watching. And thank you, Mark, for joining us today and delivering lots of new insights on the world of development. Such an amazing world to be in. So Mark, before we close, I just come to you for a last word of inspiration.
Mark Lloyd: I think just goes back to, you know, what I want to said earlier, just like, you know, well, think big or go home. Because you've got to, you've got to think big if you want to make some money in this thing. Big.
Stephanie: Big. Yeah. Absolutely. And then you can make what you could make on 10, 20, or more projects, smaller projects, in one deal for the same amount, or even less effort and energy. So thanks again for watching and for listening. And it's been amazing to join you again this week. And remember, believe bigger, be bolder, be a game changer. And we'll see you next week. Bye for now.