There have been a lot of very strange deaths in this story. You're not at all suicidal, are you? I have no plans to step under a bus or to jump under a train. The whole thing stank.

There's plenty of testimony about what Andrew was up to. I mean, he even cut some of his holidays short with his family to actually go to the island. He was so obsessed. Wow. They needed this constant gratification. I mean, Epstein needed, you know, to have an orgasm three times a day. Is that right? Andrew, you know, he's the same. He just needs sex the whole time and he likes to the sound of country music. Is that legal? You saw him with the junior Jeffrey grinding away on the island. He kind of ordered her from the catalog. Oh my god. I understand that there were girls 12 and 14. From what we know of Bill Clinton, it's perhaps not surprising that he might come under the spotlight. Did Andrew have any kind of relationship with Trump? Absolutely. Steven Hawking. He's on that list, right? What was he doing out there? What is the most damning anecdote perhaps you've heard of Andrew in relation to Epstein?

[Music] Hi guys, can you please do me a favor? We're trying to make sure over 50% of you viewers subscribe. Please hit subscribe now. It's free and helps us grow. You've got this book. What? Okay, you know what? Just give me a slight rundown of the book itself first. Let's get into that.

Well, entitled *The Rise and Fall of the House of York* is the first joint biography of the Duke and Duchess of York. Uh, it's, to be honest, the first full independent book about either of them. The others had cooperation from the principles, and it really has several strands to it. It wanted to answer the question, "Is this the happiest divorced couple ever?" So, it was the third of a trilogy of books on royal marriages. But it also has clearly a lot of material on Epstein and Andrew's relationship with him, and indeed Sarah's relationship with Epstein, which is often forgotten, and indeed was, I would say, almost as extensive. And then, of course, it looks at the way they've leveraged their royal position for personal financial gain. Uh, Andrew most obviously through his role as special trade representative and then at Pitch at the Palace, and Sarah through her endorsement of goods on QVC, working for Weight Watchers and Wedgwood, uh, and being paid huge sums of money to appear at events. Uh, and I think one of the other themes is the way that, uh, for her, she has used her charity work, much of it very good, in order to promote her own social life and indeed to, um, help her with her finances.

So, I was most struck in your brilliant book by the Andrew-Epstein relationship. And I, what I didn't know about at all, was this suggestion of a kind of boastful rivalry between them. What was it? Um, that Prince Andrew was more obsessed with P star Y than he was, than he was, or, you know, whichever way around. Tell me about that.

Well, the two men were drawn by their love of sex and of money. Uh, and they both, in some ways, are kind of damaged souls, but they needed this constant gratification. I mean, Epstein needed, you know, to have an orgasm three times a day.

Is that right?

Uh, yeah. Uh, which is why he had all these massages. Whereas Andrew, you know, people said, well, you say he's had a thousand lovers, you know, prove it. Why haven't they popped up? You know, that's been recounted in countless newspaper articles from very well-informed journalists. So, clearly, I haven't counted them, but I mean, certainly there are lots and lots of women I've come across, and they're very loyal to him. I mean, they're part of an inner circle. They're hardly likely to break rank, and he takes good care of some of these people. Uh, and, um, he's the same. He's never able to sustain a proper relationship. He just needs sex the whole time, and he gets it in the way that Epstein did from these massages. I mean, even now, he's getting people to go into Royal Lodge. Uh, and he likes to have his massage, to the quote is, to help him heal, to the sound of country music.

And these are happy ending massages, are they?

Yes.

Is that legal?

Well, I don't even know if that's legal.

I don't know how often they go on in royal property, but it's certainly happening.

Wow. Okay. That's mad. And I think maybe naively, even though I've interviewed you before and I've looked into this, there's a back-of-my-head thing saying, I think with all of the people related to the Epstein island, like, well, you know, Steven Hawking went there, and maybe if I'd known him and I was invited to this island, I'd have said, "Wow, what an opportunity." You know, maybe there wasn't a sexual thing with Andrew and all of those things. Is that now just totally—

Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's plenty of testimony of people seeing him on the island, quite apart from Virginia Giuffre. I mean, Denise George, who is the attorney general out there, uh, has stories about him which he's on the record about. This man called Steve Scully, who did the IT, who saw him with Virginia Giuffre grinding away on the island.

Grinding away. So, so actually, so it's not just he was there having a holiday.

No, no, no, no. He was fooling around with her. So, there's plenty of evidence that he was on the island. We, apart from there is a difference, you're right, between some of the people like Bill Clinton and Hawking and others, Gates, who are on these, on the literal flight. No evidence has surfaced so far that there was anything untoward about it. You know, there were conferences going on. He was using them to network. Epstein was using them to network. But I mean, there's plenty of testimony about what Andrew was up to. I mean, he even cut some of his holidays short with his family to actually go to the island. He was so obsessed.

Wow. Okay. My friend, our friend, I think Shan, I don't— Yes, absolutely. Yeah. He he's quite into the idea that Bill Clinton is very guilty and all of those things. Well, Clinton's name certainly came up a lot. And I mean, Amy Robach, who's the ABC presenter, who actually had the whole story on Virginia Giuffre years before it broke, uh, and wanted to run it, and ABC came under pressure from the palace saying, "If you want to do any interviews with members of the royal family in future, particularly Catherine and William, then forget about running this piece." And ABC killed the piece, uh, on the excuse that it wasn't sufficiently well-sourced. And in that, I mean, there's a scene where Robach was actually filmed without her knowing, just, you know, sounding off about it. And one of the names that she says is that, you know, "I had all the stuff on Clinton." And Clinton's name comes up, for example, with a woman called Joanna Sjoberg, who's the woman who Andrew put his hand on her breast with the Spitting Image puppet. She talks about Clinton.

He did. So, just the Spitting Image puppet. So, for Americans, wasn't the Spitting Image that was a satirical puppet show on—

That was a sort of satirical puppet show, uh, that poked fun. And, um, this is in legal testimony. A woman called Joanna Sjoberg recounts a story of going, meeting Andrew at Epstein's house in Manhattan, and, um, they were all larking about with Ghislaine Maxwell. And I think maybe Ghislaine Maxwell took the Spitting Image puppet, which they'd got for Andrew as a present, and put it on Joanna's breast, which, you know, she was dressed. And then Andrew put his hand on the puppet's hand, and they all laughed and thought it was very funny. But Joanna Sjoberg talks about— I interviewed a woman called Sandra White, who's never spoken before. And Sandra White was the Mail on Sunday journalist who was sent down to basically mind Virginia Giuffre when they first ran the story, and when Michael Thomas went down there with them, and got the photograph out of the shelf. And Sandra White has said that she heard stories, maybe talking to Virginia or maybe elsewhere, of Andrew with Clinton and pictures of them. So, I think there's quite a lot of evidence. And, you know, it's interesting that Trump has ordered for the two Clintons to be subpoenaed to talk about their relationship. So, he clearly has information about their relationship. And, you know, from what we know of Bill Clinton, uh, it's perhaps not surprising that he might come under the spotlight.

Absolutely. And this is the thing as well. I think some people think that if just because somebody is not in prison or hasn't been caught or whatever, that they didn't do the things they were accused of doing. And it's not as simple as that, is it? I mean, conviction rates for these kinds of things are notoriously low. It's very hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone did something like this, even on a regular basis. Do you think also Prince Andrew's status as a royal has protected him from prison time, say?

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Well, I mean, it's interesting that the Met, so supposedly investigated Andrew three times for sex trafficking. I mean, the offense happened here. It was reported by Virginia Giuffre. People like David Davis, the former head of royal security, has been pushing for this. He says that if Andrew is innocent, then let him prove it. Uh, and in each time, the Met said there was nothing to see here. I've written a series of FOIs to the Met about their investigations, which they've refused to answer, neither confirm nor deny. Um, and, um, MPs 20 years ago were calling for Andrew to be investigated by the National Crime Agency, and that kind of got kicked into touch. I think I have a line in the book where someone says, you know, "The Queen kind of dealt with it." So, yeah, I think he has been protected. I mean, what we've got to remember is that Epstein was arrested. He died in mysterious circumstances. There was no trial. Everything then got focused on Ghislaine. And clearly, um, you know, we have this extraordinary situation where the procurer for other people went to prison, but no one else who, in fact, was one of the people who benefited from what she was doing, seems to have even, you know, gone. Nothing's happened about that at all. So, and that's the big question, you know, why has only one person gone to prison for this? Uh, and, you know, there's been a giant cover-up. We can see it at the moment with the destruction of all references to Trump in the files. We can see the confusion about that with them saying, "First, we'll release this stuff, then we won't. There's nothing to—" "There is lots of stuff. There isn't anything here." Uh, and, um, you know, the whole thing, you know, stinks, frankly. Um, and I think everyone can see that.

Yeah. No, I think so. It's very frustrating, and it's just something that it's almost like we have to put up with it. I don't know what we do. It's people at the top of the media, even in our space right now, in the royals, Epstein, until, you know, late in his, were just protected. It's very frustrating. It is hard, you know. Uh, you know, I think there is this parliamentary convention that you don't ask questions about the royals, which I hope will change. I mean, if we had a bit more parliamentary scrutiny and people asking questions not just about this sort of thing, but also their finances and how opaque they are. Uh, I think that would, perhaps, you know, garner a bit more trust. Um, but you're right, the media are scared. I mean, what was interesting is when my story came out, I have a story in the book, uh, which is sourced to three different people named, about Andrew on a taxpayer-funded trip to Thailand where he had 40 prostitutes sent to him over a four-day period. Uh, and—

And that's not something you could put because you'd be getting killed by his team, wouldn't you? I mean, that's got to be—

It's a diplomat, it's a journalist, uh, it's a member of the Thai aristocracy who've given me the story. No, there's been no response from him. Uh, and, um, but what's interesting is after that came out, various people, particularly Tom Sykes at the Daily Beast, said, "Actually, I've heard these stories for years." And he wrote a story using his own sources, which were separate from mine, to talk about, you know, what Andrew used to get up to in Thailand, which he used to visit quite a lot. So, I mean, people knew about these stories but were scared to report them. Uh, and, you know, even with my book, you know, we clearly had to be very careful what we put in there. I think there were about 20 pages that were taken out by the lawyers. A lot of stuff was changed.

I was amazed how much they did allow actually, because it's not just libel; it's things like privacy. Even a prince, you know, is allowed to have a private sex life, but not on the taxpayer's purse.

Um, and, um, so, yeah, I mean, it is really hard. You know, as you know, there's been a lot of publicity about Prince Harry claiming that, um, he didn't have a fight with Prince Andrew, which I have on very good authority from a very reliable source. And we're pushing back on that, but, you know, he, you know, is a bully and he was trying to intimidate us, Harry, and trying to get stop people reporting on the book, trying to undermine my credibility as a historian, that, you know, I make stuff up.

Did he say that about you?

Well, he said this isn't true. And I know it is true. So, um, uh, you know, recollections vary, as they say. But, you know, as so often with anything to do with Harry. So, uh, you know, I can't wait. I mean, he's not going to follow through with this; it's just an empty threat. But I'd be delighted if he did, because, you know, I'd love to have him on the witness box and begin to ask him some questions about what he said in his green, his application for, to go to the States, and if he ever took drugs, and has he a history of fights, and all these other questions.

Bloody hell. Did you have to get right of replies from people for the book?

Yes. Uh, points were put to everyone I interviewed. I went back to them to check that it was accurate. I mean, there were some people who had gone on the record and then refused to be on the record or to allow the thing to be used. So, I had to take that stuff out. Um, yes, pretty much everyone. I had, I didn't give right of reply on legal advice to either Sarah or Andrew because we just thought we would be tied down with legal stuff. And they would use everything to stop the book. As it is, Sarah's lawyers were writing to Collins' lawyers, making threats months ago before the book came out and saying, in a very intimidating way, that they were watching me. They were monitoring my social media, and the sort of stuff you'd expect from Russia.

Just, you know, you're not at all suicidal, are you?

No, no, no, no. That just gets me more determined to put this boot up.

Well, but I asked that, so that if anything were to happen to you—

Right. No, I'm not suicidal. You must worry about that. Someone might knock you off, or, you know—

Well, I mean, you know, there have been a lot of very strange deaths in this story. Um, you know, quite apart from Epstein, Jean-Luc Brunel died in prison. Uh, one of the people who actually talked about the sale of Sunninghill, the son-in-law of the ruler of Kazakhstan, died imprisoned in very mysterious circumstances. Steve Hoffenberg, who was one of the, who was the man who did the Ponzi scheme with Epstein and went to prison for 18 years. I know that when he learned that Epstein had died, he absolutely was paranoid. He was in hospital in New England. He said, "I don't want anyone bringing an injection anywhere near me. I want to have security." And Steve Hoffenberg was found dead in very mysterious circumstances. So, you know, one has to wonder. And, you know, there's still big questions about Virginia Giuffre's suicide. You know, was she pushed to it through some external pressure? Was it that she just really had enough, you know, because of her own domestic marital problems? But this is a woman who's very tough. I mean, she had stood up really against some very powerful people and spoken truth. And, you know, though she was beginning to crack up, you know, the timing does seem slightly strange. You know, we've never really, I mean, we just, you know, she— the family said, you know, she died very sadly, and and we've, and she left a note or something. We've never heard anything more. So, you know, I think, you know, there are some very, very strange things going on in this story.

You must worry. Do you have a wife or something?

I have a wife and children. Yeah.

Is your wife going to like— Are you Andrew? Are you sure you want to do this book?

Well, I keep quiet about a lot of things. So, she doesn't always listen to everything I say on podcasts. So, um, she had no idea you made this book. So, she knows about the book, but I don't— I think if these things happen, they happen. But yes, if I get run over tomorrow, then it was an accident or something else.

Yeah. Stay away from the roads and make sure you're making your own food and things like that.

And don't eat mushroom beef Wellington.

Why? What's with that?

Well, that's how people poison people.

Well, back in the day.

Well, back in Australia, there's a famous case recently.

Oh, a recent one.

Yeah.

I, yes, I saw that. Um, okay. Another thing was that Epstein and Epstein said that Andrew and he, they shared women. Is there any insinuation that that together as some sort of—

No, I don't think they shared one woman at the same time, but certainly Epstein got a kick that Ghislaine was also sleeping with Andrew. Um, so that gave him a little bit of a free song.

Like a royal touch from Andrew.

Yes. I don't know. I don't know. You know, his best friend was sharing his girlfriend. I don't know. Um, but certainly, you know, Epstein certainly did have, you know, several women at the same time. Um, I, I don't know about Andrew. I mean, certainly one of the things that Andrew liked, I can't remember, I think it was left in the book, was he liked two women massaging him at the same time.

Okay. And again, these would have been of a sexual nature.

Yeah.

Just— Okay.

I think probably.

Okay. Yeah. And is it plausible that some of the victims, and I'm now talking maybe about underage, were shared by Andrew and Epstein?

I found no evidence that Andrew was involved with young girls. Um, you know, one of the people who's quoted in the book is Deborah Gale, who's the housekeeper in Palm Beach. Other members of staff I talked to, other members of staff were quoted in the book. Um, I haven't, I mean, but, you know, you don't know what the age of the girls were. No one else has come forward. You've got to remember, a lot of these women are now in their middle age. They're married with children. The last thing they want is any more attention. They signed NDAs. They're pretty frightened. Uh, they were paid off. They just want this thing to go away. So, you're not really going to get many people speaking out, even off the record. I mean, I did hear about some people. Uh, there was a woman called Sarah from Minneapolis who Epstein set up in the art world. Uh, and that was someone that was provided for Andrew. And certainly, one of the things that the FBI recovered from Palm Beach were basically these books of photographs. And it looks like people were able to order the girls off a catalog.

Wow. Oh, that is horrible. That's horrible. The underage. I get that. And I did a lot of research at one point into this word you're not supposed to say on YouTube, but these men who have, you know, interest in young girls, kind of thing. And it is unusual for a man to be interested in both adult women and young girls. It does happen, but it's unusual. Um, but I think the, I guess with Andrew, we're really talking about, are we talking about teenage girls who were legally underage—

Women? Women? No, girls. 16-year-old girls.

The ones that I've certainly come across are women in their early 20s.

Okay.

Early 20s up.

Well, Virginia was, what was she?

Well, she was 17.

Okay.

But I mean, that's the only one that I'm aware of.

Uh, and of course, that's not a criminal offense to have sex with a girl of 17 in this country. Um, you know, the optics may look very bad because he was a man, I think, 40 at the time. But, you know, these things happen. Um, and, you know, I think it's sometimes difficult to know sometimes the age of people. And I suspect questions weren't asked.

But yeah, yeah, it doesn't look good.

But he would have known that, regardless, she was potentially trafficked.

Oh, yes. I think the inference from people I've talked to is she was brought across for him.

Oh.

He kind of ordered her from the catalog.

Oh my god.

That's how that happened then with Virginia.

It's not a chance thing. It wasn't that Virginia's in town. You know, I think she was selected from what I gather talking to people.

Oh my god. So, it would imply that these there were these sort of almost human slavery mafias running through the states and around the world.

Well, I mean, Epstein had this huge operation going with Ghislaine Maxwell. I mean, she was recruiting these girls. She was getting the girls to recruit other girls. There were people, I mean, but they were being provided by model agencies like Jean-Luc Brunel. There were like kind of girls in every port. They were flying in girls from Russia who couldn't speak English, and that's why it's going to be so difficult to find anyone. These were just poor girls who were trying to become models, and were presumably sent back to Russia, and you know, hardly knew what was going on. So, it was a very cynical operation, and, you know, that's why Ghislaine Maxwell deserves her full 20 years. In fact, she should have got more. And that's why it's so appalling, really, that, you know, there is a possibility she'll be pardoned, and, you know, she will be rewarded, while the victims continue to suffer.

Is that because she's going to be pardoned potentially in exchange for not mentioning Trump?

Yeah, I don't think she will be pardoned. I think that will cause Trump too many problems. So, what he'll do is she'll be moved once again from her prison in Texas. You know, it's interesting, she's been moved further away from the center of power, away from Florida, to Texas recently. She'll be— they'll say, "Oh, she's going to an unnamed prison. We can't say anything more for her own security." And then she'll be on a plane to Israel or wherever she's going to go.

So, why Israel?

Well, she has very close links with Israel.

Um, I mean, she may go to the Caribbean. You know, I mean, she may come and live in North London, but I don't think so.

Oh, so you think that they'll say, like, "Okay, she's being arrested," and then she'll actually go off?

Well, they'll say she's been moved to another prison, and she's still in the prison service, but she isn't. And of course, who's going to say because no one will have seen her? No one can report on her.

People will see her walking out and about in Tel Aviv.

Well, I don't, you know, I think she'll have facial recognition surgery and all sorts of things, you know, and who in Tel Aviv is going to recognize her now? So, um, but I do think that she will get Trump off the hook. We know that all the Trump stuff's been taken out of the papers anyway. So, um, you know, she'll just say, you know, Trump wasn't there. She'll throw up a few low-level names to just keep the MAGA people happy.

Did you see that video before Trump got in, and they were saying, "If you, when you're president, will you release the UFO files?" And there were like three or four of the JFK files, and every time he was like, "Absolutely. Everyone needs to know about the files. We're gonna open up everything." And they said, "What about the Epstein files?" Uh, well, we'll see about that. A lot of people, you know, a lot of people didn't—

Well, there are excuses. You know, there's a lot of, you know, horrible stuff there if it's the films, but it's, I mean, we're looking at the testimony. We're not looking at the footage it was taken. Uh, and he'll say, "Well, we need to protect the victims." I mean, you know, there are procedures in place to redact victims' names and ways of identifying them. Of course, if they wanted to, they could. But of course, he's not going to. But I mean, that's true of any government. You know, in opposition, they're all in favor of freedom of information. As soon as they get into government, they're actually against it.

Well, wasn't that Biden pardoned his son, didn't he?

Absolutely.

And you would, wouldn't you, I think.

Well, I mean, it looks pretty terrible. I mean, the argument was there were Trump top political charges. Um, but, you know, I think that, you know, the idea of presidents being able to give pardons is appalling, in the way that, you know, we have politicians here able to give have the patronage to make people of the House of Lords and give them honors. You know, all these things should be independent, with independent committees, and they should be done on the basis of contribution to society as opposed to giving money to a party or basically doing the politicians' bidding.

What did you think of my Trump impression?

Good. I think you've got a future. Rory Bremer, stand down.

I, I never, I don't think I've done it before. It just came out better than I thought, and I sort of thought, I wonder if Andrew thinks this is good.

Um, was Prince Andrew ever involved, do you think, in the logistics of the Epstein sort of mafiosa thing he's doing?

No, I think he was just a beneficiary.

Excellent.

Um, you know, he, we've got to remember, a lot of this was about networking. You know, it was about finance, contacts, Epstein paying off bills, introducing him to a fast life, fun life, you know, these famous people, lots of pretty girls, but he kind of lapped it up. He's not a very proactive person. You know, everything has been on his life has been given to him on a plate. I mean, women have thrown themselves at him all his life. Uh, people have, you know, hung around him offering him sort of dodgy deals. You know, he's never really had to struggle, and he's had people around him who will go and do things for him. So, you know, the way he picks up girls is to send his secretary to the next door table at the nightclub or to the stage door or whatever and say, you know, "Would you like to come and meet the prince?" Uh, you know, he doesn't even do that bit.

It's more of a hedonistic hanger-on in some way.

Well, he just has lots of people who will bring him people. He doesn't need to go out there hunting for them.

Imagine those people. But there must be so many secretaries and assistants and PAs over the years, and I'm sure some of them you may have spoken to, but many of whom will never say a word, who have witnessed some of the strangest behavior from a prince.

Yes. Yes. I mean, and there's so much stuff. I mean, you know, I've had occasions where I've had conversations with people. I had one at a book launch with an author, and we were just sitting signing books next to each other, and she said, "What are you doing next?" "This is my last book." "Prince Andrew." She said, "I used to see him in nightclubs the whole time with girls and doing this and that." And then when she gave me her card, and then when I rang her up the next day, she said, "Sorry, I can't talk about it." So, there's a lot of that, you know, a lot of people, or a lot of people secondhand saying, "Oh, yeah, my friend was telling me all about this." And I say, "Can I talk to your friend? Would they talk to me?" And then they come back to me and say, "I'm sorry, I've talked to them." And, you know, they're really cross with you for even saying anything. So, there is this huge— And they, and people like Andrew know that, and they know therefore they can basically do what they want. They're safe. They're protected.

In all your working on this, what do you believe, and it's a difficult question to think of in this moment, but what is the most damning anecdote perhaps you've heard of Andrew in relation to Epstein?

Well, actually, it's about Sarah. Uh, you know, she was very public about, in 2000, beginning of 2011, when she heard, you know, she claimed that she first realized the degree of what he'd been doing. She claimed that she would never have anything more to do with him again. He was awful. She used the P-word. And then I find evidence from three different people, including the doorman of one of Epstein's blocks of flats, that she continued to stay at Epstein's properties until 2015, and possibly after. So, uh, you know, um, she says one thing in public and she does something else in private.

What's in it for her to be hanging around with Epstein?

Free accommodation.

Contacts, paying bills, who knows?

Yeah, she—

Maybe they just like playing Monopoly together on a grand scale where you literally do buy up the properties around London, you know, not just the board.

This was a property in New York. Uh, he, his brother Mark Epstein had a whole block just around the corner from the famous house in the Upper East Side.

What was— Did Andrew have any kind of relationship with Trump?

Absolutely. I mean, though Trump denies knowing Andrew, I mean, there are plenty of pictures of them at Mar-a-Lago. Andrew showing him around places in London. Um, uh, I've got a story from one of the diplomats in York Consulate with Trump and Andrew swapping lists of masseuses.

Swapping lists of masseuses.

Yeah. And discussing the P-word that begins with Y.

Begins with Y.

It begins with P and ends—

Ends in Y. I see. Yeah. And grabbing them by the— perhaps that was discussed.

Yeah. I mean, pretty coarse discussions to have in front of a diplomat.

So the diplomat said they've heard them discuss—

He was there. He was with them.

He was with them, and they were discussing swapping masseuses and talking about those kinds of things.

Yeah. And the golf courses in Scotland.

Isn't it mental that that I just can't believe that this is what's going on? This is, you know, and he's able to just say, "No, no, I've never met Andrew. I don't know him." And most people just go, "Oh, fair enough."

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've got pictures of them in the book together, you know. Um, uh, you know, and I got a picture of Andrew sweating. And, you know, I would have loved to put, if we had room, I would have had pictures with some of the people that Sarah mixes with, P. Diddy and others. You know, there seems to be a whole succession of pretty dodgy people who have subsequently been arrested for all sorts of offenses that they seem to party with. So, this is really hard for me because I have these, like, I have these chats with Sean Atwood, right? He was on here recently to talk about the satanic nature of Diddy and all of these kinds of people. And anyway, I see Sean quite regularly, and he's always on about, "This is satanic, and this is satanic," and there's all this kind of— And I'm of the belief of like, no, I don't think there is, I don't believe in this kind of underground, murky world of these horrid, horrible people. I know people will be saying what a naive person I am right now, but fine. Where do you— Where are you? Because if Ferg— if Fergie was just hanging out with Diddy, and then Trump's with Andrew, and all these people are together, it does start to look a bit dodgy.

No, no, I don't think there's anything sinister in that respect. I mean, I think they're just a lot of hangers-on, um, who, you know, have a lot of money, and they like going on, you know, yachts and being entertained and freebies. And, you know, sensible people wouldn't dream of approaching members of the royal family unless they were very good friends. Whereas these kind of chances, you know, they're all sort of cafe society, and that's the sort of world that they kind of mix in.

Yeah.

Not really much that adds to the dignity of the monarchy, should we say.

It's a hard one because if I, if some really rich guy said to me, "I've got this island, come hang out sometime," I'd go because, what, when do I get to be in a five-star hotel and have five lovely meals and those kinds of things? And I do want— What do you think about, you know, Steven Hawking? He's on that list, right? What was he doing out there?

Well, I think, you know, where Epstein was very clever is he gave lots of money to prestigious institutions like Harvard. He was very interested in, for example, AI and some of the work that Hawking was doing. And so you can see, if you want money to help your research projects, uh, and you want to raise their profile, then you kind of have to get friendly with someone like Epstein. But that doesn't mean, you know, and maybe you've just got to, there's a trade-off there that you have to make. Um, but I think members of the royal family like Andrew and Sarah, who've got plenty of money and clearly, well, you would think would have reputations to maintain, would be very careful, and people would warn them about mixing with some of these people, but they just love mixing with trash, frankly. Yeah, there are rumors about Steven Hawking having sort of strange fetishes, but I think, I mean, it's not defamatory because he's dead, but it's probably not very respectful and almost certainly not true.

I, I've certainly not come across anything like that. I mean, you know, my research has been focused on Andrew and Sarah.

What do you believe really happened to Epstein regarding his death?

Well, in the book, I say that it is pretty mysterious. I mean, we've got the cameras not working, we've got the two guards falling asleep at exactly the same time, and we've got the roommate that's moved out when he was on suicide watch. We've got the coroner doing an independent autopsy and saying this looks more like homicide than suicide. There was a piece yesterday with someone who served in that correctional facility saying it's impossible to commit suicide. They make it impossible for you with the sheets and the heights and all these other things. I think one of the most striking bits of testimony is Spencer Kovach, who was one of the attorneys for the victims. And he says, and this is a serious person, Epstein had got away with everything so far. It was only at the beginning of the whole legal process. He thought he could buy his way out. He was certainly not in a suicidal mood. I mean, he was meeting with his lawyers. He was planning the way he was going to get out of this. This isn't a sign of someone who was going to commit suicide. And we now have unexplained pictures of people in the orange jumpsuit being seen in the stairway coming up that evening. The government put out American government put out footage which they claimed showed there was nobody there, and then it's revealed that they cut some minutes from the footage. It's not even a picture of a cell door. And so you begin to think, well, what are they covering up? You know, and so, and indeed, one of Epstein's employees has told one of my key sources for the book, in fact, the person who interviewed Epstein, a documentary maker, that Epstein had fallen out with Trump. He'd thought that Trump would pardon him, and he wasn't going to, and Epstein was going to spill the beans on him. And the line is that, should we say, Trump said, "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?"

Wow. That's quite literary for Trump to say.

Well, I don't know if he said those exact words, but that's what I've been told.

Uh, and, you know, he was president at the time. Uh, you know, we've got to be careful with Trump. He's highly litigious, and that's how, you know, he's a bully and he uses the law to try and suppress information about him.

I see. "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?" Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury. Yeah. There's no way Trump said that. I know that's not what you're saying, but he wouldn't have put it that way.

He would have said something along those lines.

Yeah. Yeah. I see. Um, what, how did the palace then suppress the Epstein ties?

Well, I think they put this pressure on ABC not to run things. One of the stories in the book is actually, everyone gives Newsnight the credit for the big interview with Andrew, but they only knew about this and were only handed it on a plate 72 hours before the interview. The real investigations had been done by a Panorama program in Ireland, and a woman called Laura Burns. And she had spent months with an assistant going around the States interviewing people, getting an interview with Virginia Giuffre. And it was, and she, they wanted to give a right of reply to the palace. In fact, the BBC had tried to close down the investigation which had been going on for months and months. Uh, so contrary to the BBC being the great defender of free speech, they were actually kind of worried about it. And in fact, what seems to have happened is some sort of deal where the, where, I mean, in the end, it kind of backfired, but Newsnight were given this interview. They'd been talking to them about an interview on Pitch at the Palace, which was one of the sort of financial incentive operations that Andrew was doing, and the Panorama thing was shut down. And I think that was, that's an example of the palace trying to minimize the damage. I know journalists were warned off the story, were fed other stories as sort of sweetness to keep them away. Um, and, you know, even now, there have been, you know, now that I've done my book, there have been attempts to discredit me, to undermine. They reviewed the Telegraph reviewed my book the other day very harshly, when the book had only gone out that particular day, so they couldn't possibly have read it. And—

You believe that the palace has a mole at the Telegraph?

They're very close to the Telegraph. Yeah. Are they?

So, um, uh, in fact, there was a very interesting piece in the Telegraph this week which had come from the palace saying, actually, you know, this book is dynamite, and we need to perhaps rethink how we deal with things. So, it goes both ways.

Um, and, you know, there are a lot of people who are very sort of arch-monarchists, and, you know, people like Andrew are allowed to do anything they want, even if it's above the law, and have been sort of trotted out to try and put the boot into me. There was not just the Telegraph, there was Jacob Rees-Mogg on GB News.

Exactly.

I don't think I've ever witnessed an interview. I think a lot of people won't have seen it, but I don't think I've ever seen somebody—

I don't think anyone watches it, fortunately.

Although his show—

But it could be a cult.

They watch TV news. They do watch TV news, but I don't know if they watch Jacob's. How popular is his show? But I mean, I've never seen such a— He really went for you. It was actually horrible to watch.

Very one-sided. There wasn't even any— And you go, "Okay, well, to what extent is Jacob in with those people?" And you said to him the same thing. You said, "Well, you've only had it. How long had he had it? A day or so. Couldn't possibly have read the whole—"

He cherry-picked a few very minor details in the book, and he wouldn't let me speak at all. Wouldn't let me say a word. You know, he had his agenda. In fact, he—

What's in it for her to be hanging around with Epstein?

Free accommodation.

Contacts, paying bills, who knows?

Yeah, she—

Maybe they just like playing Monopoly together on a grand scale where you literally do buy up the properties around London, you know, not just the board.

This was a property in New York. Uh, he, his brother Mark Epstein had a whole block just around the corner from the famous house in the Upper East Side.

What was— Did Andrew have any kind of relationship with Trump?

Swapping lists of masseuses.

Yeah. And discussing the P-word that begins with Y.

Begins with Y.

It begins with P and ends—

Ends in Y. I see. Yeah. And grabbing them by the— perhaps that was discussed.

Yeah. I mean, pretty coarse discussions to have in front of a diplomat.

So the diplomat said they've heard them discuss—

He was there. He was with them.

He was with them, and they were discussing swapping masseuses and talking about those kinds of things.

Yeah. And the golf courses in Scotland.

Yeah.

Not really much that adds to the dignity of the monarchy, should we say.

I, I've certainly not come across anything like that. I mean, you know, my research has been focused on Andrew and Sarah.

What do you believe really happened to Epstein regarding his death?

Wow. That's quite literary for Trump to say.

Well, I don't know if he said those exact words, but that's what I've been told.

He would have said something along those lines.

Yeah. Yeah. I see. Um, what, how did the palace then suppress the Epstein ties?

You believe that the palace has a mole at the Telegraph?

They're very close to the Telegraph. Yeah. Are they?

Exactly.

I don't think I've ever witnessed an interview. I think a lot of people won't have seen it, but I don't think I've ever seen somebody—

I don't think anyone watches it, fortunately.

Although his show—

But it could be a cult.

He cherry-picked a few very minor details in the book, and he wouldn't let me speak at all. Wouldn't let me say a word. You know, he had his agenda. In fact, he—

He had prepared his answers to my responses, and he was rather caught out because one of my sources on one of my claims was, was pretty good, and he dismissed it. And then he had the strange thing, "Uh, well, you should get an affidavit." Well, um, no one is going to give an affidavit to, to a journalist. You know how well, how important it is to protect your sources. You know, the only reason people talk to you is if their, uh, identity can be protected, otherwise they would never talk. And he said, "You only had 300 people that you talk to." Well, most royal books, you're lucky if you get four or five people who talk to you. Most of the stuff is cuts. So, uh, you know, it was just a complete setup, uh, in order to curry favor with the palace.

It was really bizarre, and to me, it spoke of a person, and I, I didn't have an opinion either way, particularly with Jacob. And, uh, I, I certainly don't want to be one of those people who say, "Oh, just because he's very posh or whatever it might be, that I must dislike him or like him." But it did speak of a person who has no idea what it is to be an investigative journalist or writer.

Well, he's not. And, you know, I mean, he's, you know, what a, what a fall from grace to have a late-night show on GB News filmed in the, in, in the basement of the Queen Elizabeth Centre.

Um, you know, he, I, I thought he was, he, he makes great play of his good manners, but he's just another old Tonian bully.

But I take some pleasure that his book sold 764 copies, and mine already has 60,000 in print before publication.

Well, there you go.

So, who, who, who is the, you know, who's in a slightly better position?

Yeah. Well, I, I would say, I mean, the only thing with that is, some people would say, yes, but what popularity doesn't necessarily mean integrity. But I, I, I would say in this, in this circumstance, you have so many sources and things, and his book was absolutely panned, wasn't it?

I, I don't think, I think the exitions where he hasn't, he didn't even write it. But I think we're to talk about his book. But I mean, what was nice was the number of people in the comments who clearly were appalled by, by the way he behaved, uh, and, and wrote in the comments, and then he very, he sort of gleefully sort of crowed about it in on Twitter, and again, people piled in on him.

So, in some ways, you know, people out there recognize, you know, when people are being stitched up, and, you know, are very decent.

You know, it all actually backfired, I think. So, the only thing I'd say is, I wouldn't want to throw the bathwater out with the baby, because I quite like GB News. I think they've been great, uh, personally. But it's all right if, if you don't. That's, that's the whole point. We're supposed to be able to, okay, we might disagree on a topic, and then we move on. Whereas what he did was slammed you.

Yeah. Well, he didn't give me a chance to answer. You know, I'm all in favor of tough questions, but, um, at least let me answer them.

Yeah, I like those guys. I mean, they, they now get more views, I think, than a lot of the Sky programs and all of that. And, uh, they're doing all right. But, but yeah, that Jacob thing was nuts. Um, yeah, what? So, so tell me again. So the Emily Mateless, how did that, how did that come into being? You, because I, I just, I know you just explained it, but I just want to understand.

Well, I mean, it's, it's a big, I think it's a big story. It actually wasn't picked up in the serial. It hasn't seemed to been picked up by the papers, so it can be exclusive to you.

Yes.

Um, but the whole story, the whole, uh, sort of, uh, official version is that Emily Matas and Sam Mallister had been bartering away for months to get this interview for Newsnight, uh, and finally they persuaded the palace to do it after, you know, extensive meetings, uh, and, um, this was a triumph of journalism. Two films have been made based on the books of the two, those two particular figures.

And yet the real and story is this woman Laura Burns, named with all the people who worked for her, reporting to a man called Andrew Head, working with a man called Darra McIntyre, uh, who were quietly pulling together a very powerful investigative program about, uh, Andrew and Epstein and Jeffrey. So, Andrew, Epstein and Jeffrey, uh, and, uh, that was kind, that was shut down by the BBC.

Um, and indeed, many of the questions that they would have asked were not asked. So the BBC kind of pulled back on this. I think, you know, they, they've taken a lot of credit for, you know, speaking truth to power, but actually, this was the softer option. Uh, I think they, they, they ducked something there.

So they said, "We're not going to do this, this powerful, uh, investigative journalist. Instead, we're going to have Emily Mateless giving you a softer interview."

Yeah. In the end, I mean, it wasn't that soft an interview, only because Andrew was so stupid.

Yeah.

Uh, and, and said the most incriminating things and the most obvious lies. So, she gave, you know, she gave a good interview, well-prepared. Um, uh, but there were would have been a much tougher interview if it had come from Panorama.

How was he persuaded to do it?

Well, possibly on the basis that, you know, we've, we've managed to sideline Panorama. You're going to get Newsnight. It's not going to be as bad. So, let's do it with them, is my reasoning.

In what way was Andrew Epstein's Super Bowl trophy?

Well, uh, the other Super Bowl trophy was Clinton. So, these were the two great people who were, you know, who were going around with him. He was having pictures taken with them. He was using their contacts to to network, uh, you know, like, you know, people sticking pictures of famous, um, guests to to restaurants on their walls or whatever. You know, they were, you know, they, they took advantage of the fact that these people were a part of their circle, uh, and worked off it. And, you know, presumably Andrew was able to, well, I know that Andrew had Epstein on some of these trips and organized business for him, uh, uh, off the back of the British taxpayer.

And there are photos, as you say, of Andrew and Clinton by the pool.

Yes. I haven't seen them myself. Uh, and I don't think Sandra White had seen them. Uh, but there's certainly a lot of rumors about pictures. No, they can be, I understand they were dressed in toweling robes. You know, they could have been staying somewhere, gone swimming, and there's a picture snapped of them after the, the pool. I mean, these could be completely innocent pictures, but they certainly are pictures of the two of them together, I'm told.

And you spoke earlier of how with Andrew, uh, and his ties to Epstein, Andrew wasn't actually, you know, going for these underage or, or whatever deliberately, let's say. But would he have known that Epstein did it? Because how young were some of them at Epstein's island? The women, the girls.

Well, um, I understand that there were, there were girls, you know, 12 and 14.

Um.

12. Mad.

So, I mean, some of these young models in Louis Jean Brunell's model agency, I think, and I don't know much about the model industry, but I think they know a lot of the models start at the age of 14. So, they were certainly very young girls who should have, you know, had, uh, been properly supervised. But you can imagine, you know, a poor girl from Russia being paid large sums of money, her family being paid large sums of money, or the person who's meant to be acting in local apprentice, uh, and saying, you know, this is your great breakthrough. Uh, Epstein is very close to Trump, who had a model agency, remember? Uh, he's close to Brunell, who's on a model agency. You know, this will be your career, and you may have to to go and, um, uh, you know, go to the island. Maybe they're going to do things there. They're going to film you in this exotic location. I don't know what they would have said, but, you know, very easy to to to get vulnerable girls around. Uh, and, you know, we remember, I think it was Sarah Ransom or one of them, you know, said that, you know, she tried to escape, you know, she was so terrified, but there were sharks around there, and they sent a speedboat out to pick her up and bring her back. You know, it's like being on some sort of prison island.

Oh my god.

And, you know, can you imagine how frightening it must have been? You don't speak the language. You're 14. You're far from home, and you've got these, these, these sweaty men who are, you know, uh, indulging themselves with you.

Ogres. It's disgusting. It's, it's, it's a, it's a strange thing that we've allowed to happen in our society, because even for years and years and years, it wasn't just those guys. It was like the music scene. It was the Stones, uh, uh, the Iggy Pop. They, they would sing about this. Absolutely. I mean, Jimmy Sabel boasted about the young girls coming to his, his dressing room. You know, Me Too clearly changed things. You know, I think particularly post Harvey Weinstein. I mean, what we've got to also remember is Andrew was friendly with Harvey Weinstein. He was invited to all sorts of parties, including at Windsor Castle. Uh, that story hasn't really come out.

Is that right? I didn't know that.

There's a great famous picture of Weinstein, um, Epstein, and, um, Ghislain, uh, dressed up to go to this party at Windsor Castle.

Where did he was performing, presumably?

Well, who knows? I mean, Elton John, you know, is very close to to the Yorks. Uh, and there are a lot of stories which I couldn't put in about, uh, uh, Elton John for legal reasons.

Wow. That's unbelievable. I, yeah, I didn't know that. And I, I can't, I can't ask any further, can I?

We'd better not go there until I get, until the lawyers let this through.

You're not going to tell me it's not his real hair, are you?

Nothing as serious as that. Um, okay. Well, look, we're, we're going to do a part two on this, where we're going to talk about more about Andrew's personality, his bizarre sexual quirks, and, and his bullying behavior. We talk about Prince Harry and those kinds of things. But while on the Epstein topic here, is there anything else you'd like to say on that?

Well, I think, you know, one of the things that really struck me was that everything is focused on Andrew and Epstein. Sarah had 18 numbers. Uh, he had 18 numbers for her. He only had 16 for Andrew. Uh, and...

What does that mean, the numbers?

Well, it's like, like your, your, your iPhone, you know, and you have one number for me, or maybe two, but you certainly don't have 18. So, basically, I mean, it's, it's mad for someone to have 18 numbers. Uh, I know that she used to have all sorts of phones, one for business, one for family, one for lovers. Um, uh, and she used to install extra phone lines when she went on holiday by the pool and stuff. But to have 18 numbers for someone suggests that you are pretty friendly with them. And no one has investigated that relationship, which began much earlier. It began 10 years earlier than they claim. It lasted much longer. And it's clear that, you know, it wasn't just Andrew going and staying at the houses. Sarah was there as well.

Is there any implication that she might have been some kind of Ghislain figure?

No, I don't think so. But I mean, she, she likes freebies, and this was, I mean, she, she liked, you know, basically, um, um, you know, free accommodation and presumably, uh, piggybacking off the contacts he had and the people, you know, that she might meet socially and, and, and, and use useful for her commercially.

So, um, you know, that whole story has, has kind of been shut down. You know, everyone's saying to Andrew, "You come and talk to the FBI. You, this is just, you are a material witness. You may have seen things. You may have things that can help us our investigation." No one has ever tried to, to my knowledge, ask Sarah to do that.

That's really interesting. That's really interesting. And that's a good point as well. It's, it's another side of this, because we're all saying, gosh, you know, Andrew might have done some horrible things. We don't know the, the ins and outs exactly. And, and why aren't the FBI and the police here getting more involved? But also, why isn't Andrew, having been so close with all, all of that, going volunteering to go there and give information that could help?

Absolutely. I mean, and this is the point that Jeffrey Burman, who was the prosecutor, the attorney in New York City, was he constantly asked for Andrew to come. Andrew's lawyers would say, "Oh, yes, we have agreed." And then Burman would say, "Well, yeah." Um, Gloria Aldrid, who was one of the lawyers for the victims, constantly asked for Andrew to come and give evidence. In fact, she, she actually paid for a bus to drive by Buckingham Palace saying, "Have you seen Prince Andrew? He's, he's wanted to to come and give a, a chat to the FBI and the lawyers."

Uh, and when they tried to serve the summons, um, on him, uh, he then fled to Balmoral. His, his daughter was about to have a baby. You would think he would want to be down there, uh, and, and hold himself up in Balmoral with the Queen for, for several weeks in order to avoid being presented with the summons. So, this isn't a man of someone who is prepared to, uh, engage with, with, uh, law enforcement. This is someone who's hiding from, from them.

Do you think he'll ever see justice? Will they ever, will he see the inside of a prison? Andrew?

Well, uh, you know, I, I, I, I hope that, you know, there will be some proper investigation of him by the Met and by the National Crime Agency. You know, maybe new evidence will present itself. Maybe there is sufficient evidence in what I've got in my book. I've certainly got other things which I'm happy to present to the, uh, other agencies.

Um, but, you know, judging from my experience of this country, no one in the royal family is ever going to be arrested or investigated or convicted.

Um, so it's all pie in the sky.

Okay. And, uh, just a reminder to, to anyone watching, you're, you're quite happy in your life, aren't you, right now?

Yes. Yes. I'm, you know, I've got a new spring in my step. I spent 40 years being a literary agent, and I've always wanted to write, and now, you know, I've beginning to take off as a writer, and I have several more books I want to do. Uh, I've already started researching them. So, I have no plans to step under a bus or to jump off a, uh, under a train.

Okay. Your Mountbatten book was brilliant. So, people should see that. And I've got another question for you, but first, you know, where can people get your, your book?

Well, um, uh, in Britain, we have no problems. Uh, Collins, uh, have, uh, an audio edition, uh, a Kindle, and a hardback. The situation in, uh, and that's true, I think, Australia. The book comes out there on August 26th, so slightly later. Uh, it's August the 14th elsewhere. Okay.

In the States and Canada, it's a slightly more complex position because, uh, the big publisher who bought it, SNS, pulled the, canceled the book literally a few weeks ago. They'd already advertised it on Amazon. Uh, and so, uh, clearly it was too late for me then to get another publisher and publish at the same time. So, I've been forced to self-publish the book. It's coming out. Uh, so, of course, it's not going to be in bookshops. It's not going to get book reviews. I'm entirely reliant on Amazon's KDP program.

Uh, and so Amazon sales. Uh, the problem, uh, is on Amazon, there seem to be two editions of the book, uh, on Kindle, uh, which we're trying to combine because clearly that's affecting sales and ranking. Uh, and the hardback, uh, is not going live until Thursday. So, you, you can't pre-order it. You've got to wait until Thursday. Okay.

So, for the moment, you can get the Kindle. There is Blackstone doing audio, uh, which I think has been advertised, uh, you can get hold of now. This will probably go out on Thursday.

Then Thursday, you should be absolutely fine. And if you've got any problems, uh, you can always email me, and I will try and help you to to direct you to to, um, uh, the, the right place to buy it.

We'll put some links in the description. We probably shouldn't put your email address. We can if you want.

No, no. I've got a website which I'll send you links to, which has wonderful stuff. There's lots of, I've got now TikTok, Instagram. Uh, I've come into the 21st century.

Welcome here. Good to have you here. Um, oh, I will put those links. I'll send you some links. Yeah, we'll do that. And then just, just tell me, we are going to do a part two, but I want to know now, who is a heretic you admire?

Gosh, I forgot we asked that.

Yeah, I have been asked that several times. Um, uh, who are the heretics? Well, I think, you know, anyone who speaks truth to power, anyone who has suffered as a result of, uh, going, not resisting, not, um, succumbing to pressure.

Um, you know, I have a great deal of admiration, for example, to Laura Burns, the, the, the Panorama journalist who pursued this, this case, uh, uh, against a lot of opposition. People tried to shut her down here. They tried to shut her down in the States. She had absolutely no credit, uh, in when that program went out, the Newsnight program.

She must, she must hate Emily Mateless.

Well, I think, you know, she, she was a single mother. This would have really helped her. She's actually now left television and is doing something else. I think pretty disillusioned by the, the way it operates.

I see.

Um, so I think, you know, I'll put up Laura Burns. You know, not an obvious heretic like, I'm not an obvious heretic, but sort of, I think, you know, standing, doing the right thing is is the key, not the easy thing.

We're going to do a part two, which will be out a few days later than this going out. It's going to be about the bizarre sexuality, bullying allegations, the Prince Harry saga with, with Andrew. So, uh, if by the time you're watching that, that has already come out, you will see it right here or here somewhere on your screen. And please do go through to that, because it's, it's just mad, this stuff we have to talk about.

Um, hit the like button, and yeah, do keep on watching this, this channel.

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What Andrew & Epstein REALLY Did to Girls (At The Same Time): Bombshell Revelations

Transcription