Transcription
Poor me. Such a heavy time. I should have been able to enjoy myself.
>> Start being released and it's supposed to be a really exciting time. Um, I'm a person that will always >> rule of thumb whenever someone starts a sentence with I'm a person that what follows is usually the opposite of what they are. >> Will always speak my truth and I'm, you know, that's what >> she'll always speak her truth. That means she's really low in agreeableness because she doesn't care about what her truth might do to the the other person in the room. Like her friends like her friends who she outed.
Some of you have asked me um if I could distinguish between narcissism and borderline and I was preparing that and into my lap fell this scandal all these videos of Taylor Frankie Paul and I thought this is perfect. So, we're going to use those videos and map that onto if this is narcissism or if this is borderline. Can we actually distinguish between the two at all?
There's so much inaccurate talk about narcissism. So, let's first put it where it where it needs to be. It's within the cluster B. As you see here, it's next to borderline histrionicism and antisocial personality disorder. And the best way to conceptualize this is through this action system mapped on to uh the big five. The reason this is so important is that the personality disorders they find themselves at the extreme ends. Um, that's where they create the pathology. All the cluster B what they have in common is really low agreeableness. When you look at the the traits and where they where they go to the extreme of causing pathology what they call vulnerable narcissism and borderline are so close together they're almost indistinguishable.
And this brings us to this Taylor Frankie Paul incidents. And if you don't know her, she first exploded on the digital scene because she's the de facto leader of hashm talk, which is where you have all these seemingly perfect Mormon wives in in Utah. And she broke out when in 2022 when she had this bombshell confession that she and her social circle were engaged in soft swinging. So where they exchanged partners, >> we did have sex in the shower with our husbands altogether. We also had sex in the same bed at the same time. We would blindfold each other and you would have to guess which husband you were kissing. And a couple times we did that. >> And then she built a whole social media profile. She has like six million followers. And then she became the the star of the secret lives of of Mormon wives. and she's been in the news in the recent weeks because um ABC she was she starred in the they made a whole season of the Bachelorette with her as the star and it was supposed to to air and they cancelled it 3 days before this premiere. Why? There was leaked footage of her uh in 2023 being arrested for physically assaulting her partner and the video shows that she throws metal chairs while her young child is right there screaming in the background.
>> Stop, dude. Leave me alone. >> Oh my god. >> And the violence isn't just a high neuroticism. You have a lot of neurotic people who are not violence because you need that combination of neuroticism and low agreeableness because the rules of nonviolence, they don't apply to you like they apply to everyone else.
And then comes the part of the video that's more interesting than just the violence. >> Taylor, the neighbors called in saying they heard a bunch of yelling. >> Tell me tell me what happened to me. He me in the garage and it's fine. I don't give a I just want I just want to move on. I don't give a [ __ ] about him. I just >> Oh, just just very performative. Notice when you watch this, you don't feel actual sadness for her. You feel this, please make it stop. This is the predatory strategy of weaponized neuroticism. Right? If I'm It's this psycho babble idea, right? that if I'm sad enough, I'm allowed to be mean enough. And so until now, it's absolutely indistinguishable borderline and vulnerable narcissism. She shows high neuroticism and she shows low agreeableness uh with the capacity for violence and she weaponizes vulnerability as a part of a strategy.
Let's go to the episode that made her famous where she does this live confession about swinging. >> When you first came out on the scene and you were all of a sudden like, "Hey, I'm Taylor Frankie Paul. I'm a Mormon. I'm a swinger. Life's crazy." What even prompted you to even start that chaos? >> Okay. So, we were obviously like in an open relationship with a group of friends. >> And when you say we, you and your ex-husband. So, I have my husband and then I have my best friend and then her husband and then like some other people. >> Are you still best friends with this girl? >> No. >> You surprise me. She effectively napalmed her entire social circle, outing the private lives of every other couple. She forced them into defensive position while she could claim the role as the honest victim. And now she is the authentic >> whole swinging stuff start. >> It wasn't even a conversation. I think we were all drinking and partying and then the guys were like, "You guys, you girls should make out like make out. You know, it's hot." And we're like, "Okay, it's hot." And so we make out and that's that. And I feel like I had done that in my younger years. It wasn't a big deal to me. So I was like, "Okay." We threw another party and same thing. And then it was like, "Let's take off your clothes and do lingerie pictures together while making out." And it just like >> everyone was kind of turned on by Okay. >> How many couples are >> at this point? >> Right. It's seductive. It's over disclosure. She manages to create an image where it's not, oh, I betrayed my friends by outing their private lives. It's I'm just being real. I'm just being authentic. I'm just being vulnerable. Oh, I'm just so innocent. And so, she ma she manages a massive surge in personal supply without taking any accountability. She's basically the bully on the playground throwing a punch and then saying, "Don't hit me. I'm wearing glasses." And this is, I would say, the low modesty facet of of narcissism. If you dive into the big five, you'll have different facet of every trait. And she's using honesty to remain the protagonist of a scandal that she created. It's brilliant.
And this sort of thing, creating this this image requires a level of conscientiousness that I don't see from borderline patients. So they'll come and they'll have these moments of sort of lucid awareness and sometimes they'll be incredibly self-aware and they'll say, "Oh, Dr. spirit. I I I I've have a diary and I have a schedule and now I'm going to fill this out and it's going to be like this and this and I'm going to be really disciplined and these are my goals for this year and they'll be super excited. Right? That's that extraversion element that they tend to have and um the enthusiasm and uh uh they want to do this is how I'm going to fix myself. I have this book and I'm going to and it won't last two weeks. it'll never last two weeks. They just don't have the conscientiousness to follow anything through. And she also shows this selfawareness. Um, she knows she's toxic. And another way she shows this low modesty of the narcissism is that she she isn't she uses these uh trending sounds to excuse herself so to say here. So she says my intrusive thoughts had me thinking it could be me that's the problem. You think? You think? But don't worry, I quickly snapped out of that nonsense. So, she turns her bad behavior into this vibe that she then gets credit for. It's like, you can do whatever you want as long as you feel a little bit guilty about it, but you're so cute. We're going to let it go. And this is because true repentance requires high conscientiousness. That's that quiet reflection and a change in behavior. And she does the opposite. She leans in to her who are to her chaos. Why? Because it's a strategy. Chaos is profitable and she has just enough conscientiousness to make it pro profitable. where the borderliner just burns everything and then she finds a new host to pick her up from the ashes. And so Taylor by calling herself the problem first, she sort of defangs the criticism. If you call her toxic, oh, you're just repeating the meme. If you criticize her now, then you are the aggressor and you're attacking the mentally ill woman.
And that brings us to to the next one. So what happens then after the leaked leaked footage? What I think you can guess if you watch Psycho Babble before, I think you can guess what the pivot is going to be. I am so broken. Look at me. I am the best at being a victim. Taylor Frankie Paul is with us. Good morning to you. >> Good morning. >> And I want to hear all about your bachelorette journey. But first, I want to give you the opportunity to respond to recent headlines about the alleged domestic violence incident with your ex-boyfriend. What do you want to share with about >> alleged? >> Honestly, I it's been a heavy time uh to see the headlines, especially during this time of >> poor me. Such a heavy time. I should have been able to enjoy myself. being released and it's supposed to be a really exciting time. Um, I'm a person that will always >> rule of thumb whenever someone starts a sentence with I'm a person that what follows is usually the opposite of what they are. Just my two sense >> will always speak my truth and I'm, you know, that's what she'll >> always speak her truth. That means she's really low in agreeableness because she doesn't care about what her truth might do to the the other person in the room like her friends like her friends who she outed >> known for and so when the time is right I will be um but right now just trying to be in the present moment and focus on this and but the thing is is my f >> so she's trying to say I'm I'm just trying to focus on now like please forget that I threw a chair that my daughter, we just want to stay in this moment. Focus right here. Focus right here. >> My kids do come first. >> My kids come first. And so it's been like, >> but yeah, your kids didn't come first when she was in the way of the chair you tried to throw. And also her social media is there. Her kids are plastered across her social media. Where were they when you were filming the Bachelorette? just a back and forth process trying to be here in the present moment, worrying about, you know, home and headlines. Um, it's been stressful to be honest.
On the next season, I know there's a season on right now and then season five was in production. >> Reports say it's been it's paused. >> Is that true? >> Um, honestly, I I don't call the shots with production. So, as of now, I have gotten word that it also has been paused, but I do not call those shots. So, as far as I know, it it was, but I don't know for how long and why. >> And I know you're one of the executive producers on the show. >> Yeah. Yeah. I got told that this this year I got told that and I was like, what does that mean? You know, >> what does that mean? I don't I don't know. I'm just incompetent. >> Aren't I cute? Oh, pretty pose. she has a team of people to tell her exactly what that means. >> You know, I was like like I think just because we share our lives and we produce like our own, you know, lives, >> but I don't know if that necessarily what that what that means, right? >> And how do you how do you envision your future on that show? >> Hard to say now, right? Just because of, you know, everything going on. It's hard to see past this. I'm not going to lie. in this moment is just so heavy when your life is broadcasted out there in these headlines. >> It's like the end of the world. That's what it feels like. I'm not going to lie. Um but I will say I've I've been here before and I got through it and you know shared my story, my light. So I I'm hoping that I can do that again. >> Yeah. And you're and you're about to share your journey. >> Share her journey. I would like to see less of her journey.
And so with this when she says I it's a heavy time and she's talked earlier about her bipolar activation and that she has when she's been talking about anxiety, PTSD, um you know a range of other labels. List goes on and she uses that as a get out of jail free card of course. And this is a very clever narrative plot to frame her not as the abuser but as someone who's finally gaining the strength to face her accuser to face this heavy time because anyone who challenges her hasn't endured enough suffering to speak. So here she is all made up uh everything put neatly together, everything rehearsed and so the conscientiousness is also clear here and she plays exactly the right cards. So, she focuses on the strategy and the strategy works. And her followers are already out there saying helping her with the victim narrative, saying that she's a a victim of narcissistic abuse. So, they they're putting the focus on her this uh her baby daddy, the the one she threw the chair at, which I'm and I'm not very interested in him. I I think this is a classic case of everyone's a jerk here. This is just such a good example of how we infantilize women. No matter what they do, no matter what sort of abuse they level at their partners, there's always a pivot. There's always a way to frame them as the victim um as the one who doesn't have agency. Imagine if a man was caught on camera uh throwing a chair at a woman with her child there. Child chair hits the child, you know, no one would say, well, let's talk about his complex mental health journey. And I think because of the way that we have made mental disorders into status because you know now we get social cache from victimhood status. This plays perfectly into the strategies of both the narcissists and um the border lines who have narcissistic traits. So they have I think that this this fact that you can have you can gain status from mental disorders has effectively merged the vulnerable narcissist with the borderline pathology because you know they're they're both predators but with a different functionality with a different strategy. And so you see the vulnerable narcissist becomes the patient when it helps the strategy and they will come to therapy but they will have a plan to manipulate the therapist when they want something. And so that again like I talked about before this is where you see with women different they'll go for different popular diagnosis. They will go to therapy when it serves their purpose. the purpose of being the diagnosis that will get them social status and the diagnosis that will help them have the environment accommodant accommodate their whims.
And so what I think is a much cleaner way of understanding this is that what people call vulnerable narcissism is really just if you look at the traits, it's really just a borderline pathology pathology with enough conscientiousness to actually hold things together and push for status and to sort of complete a strategy that a lot of borderliners would never be able to achieve because of the lack of conscientiousness. And so you still have the same core, you have the high emotional instability, you have the low agreeableness, you have um so they're sensitive and reactive and volatile. But instead of everything spilling out in in in into chaos, everything burning down, the vulnerable narcissist would have just enough breaks, just enough ability to re in their impulses to channel it and that changes the strategy completely. So just because of what Taylor Frankie Paul has achieved, I would hesitate to say, "Oh, this is a borderline pathology because it's so curated. It's so clever, calculated. It's she's um the way that she the moment after her arrest, she's giving an in an interview completing that pivot, that narrative to perfection.
And another thing I think would be interesting to mention is that the the you know the the narcissist, you know, they usually care about their their image. They usually be very ashamed of these public outbursts. And with a with a borderline patient, that shame isn't there in the same in the same way because they're so dependent, their strategy is that emotional manipulation, that emotional escalation. That is the only strategy because the conscientiousness is so low. So, you know, they'll deal with the shame uh later, but they just need to get their supply and they're not, you know, a lot of therapists, they say, "Oh, it's the fear of abandonment, the the borderliners. They're so they're driven by the fear of abandonment." I want to correct push back on that a little. Don't think they're afraid of abandonment. They're afraid of not having the supply. the partner, the one they're attached to, they're not attached to them because because of love, because the need for bonding, because as you see here, the need for bonding is in the element of agreeableness and they're very low here in that action system. They need to be attached to someone because that's their resource acquisition. That's their supply. So the fear is in that losing that supply. And I think if you were to distinguish between the borderline and the vulnerable narcissist, that would be the difference. The vulnerable narcissist has a slightly different strate. They don't have to lean exclusively on that seduction, emotional man manipulation element. The vulnerable narcissist can turn that same underlying instability into something that looks functional. Achievement, image, credentials, social positioning exactly like Taylor, Frankie, Paul did, but underneath it's still doing the same job. It still comes from the same place, the same trait constellation. So, I think what we're seeing here isn't really two different personality structures. It's the same underlying traits expressed through different resource acquisition strategies. The real divergence is how do they get what they need from other people.
Problem with this concept of vulnerable narcissism um is that it's too similar to borderline. I think that we're better off merging them because if you control for neuroticism and agreeableness, the distinction really disappears. There really isn't a clean trait profile that separates the two. They're both really entitled. That entitlement is not something uh particular to narcissism. It's not something that only belongs to narcissism. That entitle entitlement is simply very low agreeableness. That's how we experience someone being entitled. Why? Because if someone is low in compassion and high in antagonism, they will push for their needs and they'll disregard reciprocity which from the outside looks like I deserve more. Even you know because what they think is well why shouldn't I get what I want and that would with with patients who are just so agreeable and dependent they cannot stand up for themselves which creates resentment. And so that's why then they come to therapy and what you have to teach them is to think exactly that you why shouldn't you get what you want sometimes this is how you need to be more assertive assertiveness being in that um in that trait extraversion which narcissists have a lot of and so I think a little bit this uh belief in being special is a a a psychological ghost because it sounds very good because we done we think of them as other and I think a lot of this narcissism online there's so many uh YouTube psychologists uh talking only about narcissism and they make them look like so I don't think it's completely correct to say that all narcissists believe that they are special. I think that is just we're so uncomfortable with people who are low in agreeableness. It's so it's so foreign to the mo to to to most of us. And by framing it as a belief, psychologists make it sound like they're delusional, like a mental delusion. But if we fra frame it more as a trait which it is we can reveal can we can reveal that it's a strategy and then it's again about incentive structures to take away the functionality of that strategy which is what we have to do. It's like you know saying a predator a predator doesn't believe that they're special compared to the prey. they just don't value the praise life as much as their own. And I think when we start shifting that kind of framing, then we can actually go about lowering those traits, taming those traits. And I think also there's an argument to be made that narcissism isn't a clinical disorder, you know, because the I think we're better off pulling vulnerable narcissism uh into the borderline pathology because here we know what we're dealing with and we it's a it's um it's a more stable concept.
And the grandiose narcissist that is so different in the way that you know they are low in neuroticism like they're emotionally stable which is why they don't really show up in the clinic and they're high in extraversion. So you get that assertiveness, the uh fighting for themselves and why they're ambitious and they want to lead and dominate and the low in agreeableness which makes them not afraid to say what they need, say what they want, uh fire people and it makes them that low agreeableness that makes them come across as very callous, very crass. and the the the borderline narcissism. They are also very low in agreeableness, but they cloak that invulnerability. So, you don't really notice. They don't come across as callous because it's always about their fragility. It's always about, oh, but you they bypass the callousness that we recognize in grandio narcissism by saying, oh, but I'm so broken. I'm allowed because I'm suffering so much, but it's the same trait. So, it's very clever. So, very clever.
So, I think I think it might be worth doing another episode on on narcissism. This was just to distinguish or I think how we can't really distinguish between vulnerable narcissism and borderline pathology. I've never seen a borderliner who doesn't have narcissism. And that's because what they have in common is that low agreeableness. It's about the strategy is different. So, let me know what you think. I I do want to get to DBT therapy and also what we can do to tame the increasing expression of these traits. See you next time. Have a nice day. If you want to help me out, please subscribe and like and leave a comment. I look at your comments. I I can't answer all of them, but you know, if you have a like on your comment, it's probably for