Transcription
And I will give power to my two witnesses, [music] and they'll prophesy 1,260 days. No rainfalls in the days of their prophecy, and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues as often as they desire.
So, this is God saying, "This two witnesses sounds like they're extremely powerful. What does that prophecy mean? Is it real or or not real?" There is a theory that the two witnesses are out there and they're in the world right now.
Okay, hit me with the prophecy of the two witnesses. Okay, we're talking about Revelation 11. And I will give power to my two witnesses and they'll prophesy 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth.
Okay, so this is God saying this. He's going to have the two witnesses. And he's going to give them power.
What are they? What are they like?
The first description it gives of them is very odd. These are the two olive trees.
Okay.
And the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And then in terms of the specific powers, it sounds a little violent. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy. And they have power over waters to turn them to blood. Little bit like the plagues in Egypt, let my people go and all that.
And to strike the earth with all plagues as often as they desire.
Okay. Did you say that anyone who wants to kill them gets killed? Like anyone who just like I hate those guys.
Yeah.
Wow. That's right.
Okay. Two two witnesses sounds like they're extremely powerful.
Yeah.
What happens to them? What what goes on? What do they do?
So, it sounds like up until this point, no opposition against them is successful, but they they get successfully opposed by this beast that rise up when they finish their testimony. I guess after the 1260 days.
Got it. The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
Yes. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and festive send gifts to one another because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. It's very odd, but there's some strong battle going on, right, between these two. They one has power of the other and people are dying and then all of a sudden it swings the other way and now they're dead. So that's a prophecy. That means it's it's really going to happen.
That in in some sense.
Did did it has it happened already? Have we seen these witnesses? Like no, I don't I can't like I I did history in high school. I did I guess a little bit in college. I don't remember anything like that happening.
We we we couldn't name them.
So does that mean it's is it real or or not real? That's what we're investigating today. What does that prophecy mean?
And if only somebody could go.
Okay. Well, I mean, well, like, not to give away the premise, but [laughter] you're supposed to give away the premise. You know, there there is a theory that the two witnesses are out there and they're in the world right now.
Oh.
And actually, we're in this strange story. Live in this prophecy and have been for many many years, hundreds of years, thousands of years.
Okay. So, the the explanation, I guess the counterprophecy, the explanation of the prophecy is Emanuel Swedenborg's saying that it's it's actually written in the text of the Bible. If you understand the symbolic language of prophecy, you can know what these who these two witnesses are. And by the way, it doesn't seem too big of a reach to say that there's some kind of meaning to this because it says that there's this city where our Lord was crucified, which to me would say Jerusalem.
Yeah.
And that's it's spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.
I know. When when we were just even before this podcast started, I was like, man, that is if you're going to say Swedenborg and correspondence is the symbolic language of the Bible. He's just making that up. That's not in the Bible. What are you talking about? That's the Bible saying that right there. It's like saying that this city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Like Sodom and Egypt are descriptor words.
Yes.
That it's not literally where it was. That's so it's not it's in plain language uh saying that the Bible uses things even as concrete as locations and geographical locations which figure prominently in the Old Testament to symbolize spiritual things. That's all that Swedenborg says. It's like yeah, it's serious when it says that. It really says that. And then I extend that from there to say, well, the fact that it calls these two witnesses two olive trees, which is just odd.
You know? I mean, they sound like people, right? They've got fire coming. I mean, they're not ordinary people because they have fire coming out.
If you're trying to be the hype man, it's almost like this is like the hype man for those like here's what's going on. They're going to be able to do this power and that power. You know what? They're like olive trees.
Which don't have mouths and never have fire coming out. And it's not like everyone's like, "Oh yeah, that's the most powerful tree. All trees like don't mess with."
And then says lampstands, which also is not, [laughter] you know, it's not like flamethrower. It's just like little static thing.
Yeah. Let's let's think of a new superhero lampstand.
Lampstand.
Doesn't quite doesn't quite. So why include if why include those descriptors unless we're we're not talking about an olive tree and a lampstand. Talking about the qualities that those things symbolize. And if we do that, there couldn't be all this other stuff. This breathing the fire. Yeah.
This laying in the streets three and a half days.
Right?
Otherwise, what is this thing? It's describing a world that's not like the world that we live in.
No.
It is describing a world that's a lot like the Avengers.
Yes. Where there's a couple of super powerful people that have superpowers and people who like it's just an external war. There's not really right and wrong or gray area. It's just these people have this power. A beast comes up and attacks them. Again, that's not how life really is. So, what does this thing mean?
And and spoiler alert, in the next part that comes up, these people who are absolutely dead and got killed come back to life and become more powerful than ever. So it it's yeah, we're not in kind of ordinary reality.
Are you telling me that God this is what God has left for us? Why give the human race this prophecy? Uh if it's just about something that like seems implausible to happen and wouldn't like what does that do for me? What can I do with that to live the life to which I'm being called to live by the creator?
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. It seems just like a bizarre fantasy from some other realm. But this is why I like I this is why I I uh give credence give credence to this Swedenborgian explanation of the prophecy because suddenly it becomes something that's very relevant and very realistic and oh I get it.
Okay. So the basic premise is that the the two witnesses are a certain kind of Christian.
Or a certain kind of person.
A certain sort of way of being.
Yes.
Christian like a certain approach to Christianity.
I would say. So I think maybe it would extend outside Christianity. You you can help be the judge of that as we go through this. So, this is from Swedenborg's book Apocalypse Revealed, which is him going through this whole crazy sounding book. I don't I mean that very respectfully. Um, fantastical sounding book, but confusing book of Revelation and giving you the here's here's how you speak that language.
Yeah.
He says, "And I will give power to my two witnesses." This is the the phrase that starts this quote you already read. This symbolizes those people. There's two two components of these people. Those people who confess and acknowledge from the heart that the Lord is God of heaven and earth whose humanity is divine.
That's the first part. Second part is and who are conjoined with him by a life in accordance with the ten commandments. These are the people meant here by the two witnesses because these two characteristics are the two essential elements of the new church.
Okay. So he's talking about a new kind of Christianity and it's the opposition that you feel in the story I imagine has to do with the opposition between that view of Christianity which is that Jesus is God or became completely divine you know one with the quote unquote father by by the end of his life after the resurrection and that it's not just believe and you'll you'll be saved. The way that you connect with that one God is through living a good, useful, loving, compassionate life.
Yeah.
Right. And and so you can see the opposition immediately that that has with some idea. Well, no, there's three different persons and one's angry and the other one, you know, spares you and then they send the Holy Spirit and and um and the idea that oh, just believe. That's all you have. Your own works are meritorious. They don't contribute anything to your salvation. They they're important to do because they are a sign of your faith. They don't open heaven for you. What What are you talking about?
Okay. So you you could I feel like hear that explanation and say that's a nothing burger. What are you that that's just taking this prophecy of this religious thing and sort of weaving it into more religious theological debates angels on the head of a pin. This is not something that you didn't that's not that satisfying. I would have rather that you said it's about barcodes or something like that.
Yeah. Yes. Exactly.
But I assert that as we unpack this, it becomes more and more relevant and that actually oh there is this struggle and the struggle does matter. Okay. I mean that's that's my hypothesis or that's that's what I'm guaranteeing to the viewers to entice them to see this through to the end because that the statement maybe it it jumps off the page at you. It didn't when I first was reading through this but after getting through all the Yeah. Okay. I totally get that now.
So, we got these two components. Jesus is God and you can become conjoined by living by the ten commandments.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's what those are the witnesses. People who believe those things, one or both of them. That's like the two witnesses. Okay. He continues, "And they will prophesy 1,260 days." This symbolically means that these two teachings must be taught until the end of a corrupted form of Christianity and a new beginning. Okay? So we are which we are in the book of revelation generally in last judgment territory, right? Swedenborg describes the whole book of revelation as being about this judgment. And you can see there's all this mayhem. It's hard to tell what's going on, but there's, you know, trumpets sounding and there's all kinds of things going on. And yeah, and then it has this peaceful, beautiful resolution at the end where the holy city comes down. It's gorgeous. And
I love that part.
And and so all of this other stuff that didn't belong has been moved aside and various people have been thrown into the lake of fire and so on. And so it's it's a metaphorical story about a a judgment. So it's very interesting point to me that this idea is that before the judgment there has to be a release of truth.
That's what I get out of what he's saying. You know?
Yeah.
That for three and a half years, which is very much like a time, times, and half a time, and then they lie dead for three and a half days.
Yes. Uh you know uh that that's kind of a a full cycle like there's going to be a long time where this is this is preached.
Okay. So
Where this greater truth is suddenly empowered and it's coming forward and some people are not happy as they say on the news. Not everyone is happy. [laughter]
How did they know? How they know I wasn't happy?
We found that one guy.
I'm not happy. I don't like anything. Let's talk about olive trees and lampstands, baby. Good.
I mean, we were kind of making light about that or or just the oddity of it.
I'm not like we're not trying to We're not trying to come off as irreverent, but what we're trying to do is say awaken the human intellect to the what I think is the obvious reality that there's something to pursue in here.
Yeah.
There's something to pursue in this. There's some and and it really strikes me that I don't know I don't know if anybody knows all the different theories of the book of revelation and what people have said this means but almost everybody has to say well oh this stands for Nero and that stands for you know they they do something with it. It's either in history of distant past like Roman history or it's it's happening later or it's got some it's happening now spiritual meaning to it. It's happening now, the end of times and right and and um but everybody has to do something to it because the book of Revelation is full of these kind of statements that these two people are olive trees and their lampstands and it just like you can't is that you know those aren't an is in English. [laughter]
Yeah. So so this is how we is it. This is how is it, isn't it? These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. This symbolizes love and intelligence or charity and faith both of which people have in them from the Lord. An olive tree symbolizes love and charity and a lampstand symbolizes enlightenment in truths. To stand before God means symbolically to hear and to do what he is commanded.
It's kind of interesting in a way that he didn't say there's one olive tree and one lampstand which would be sort of what Swedenborg would often do which yes the oil means love and so okay that's the olive side lampstand is is light. So that has to do with truth and the the mind as opposed to the heart. But here you got two olive trees. That's interesting. two olive trees, two lampstands, and yet it still covers that love and love and truth, you know, both both of those things.
So, the battle begins. Now, we got we got love and truth. You believe Jesus is Jesus is God, and you believe you got to live a life in accordance with the Ten Commandments or or you do live a life in accordance with the Ten Commandments.
Uh, and all their all their sub layers of meaning. That's the people and they've got love and truth. So what would they fight with? What would attack them? Here we start to see the the opposition. So what what's the main foe of these two characteristics? There's two Christian doctrines, two ideas that we we say Christian doctrines, man. Christianity, name something else that's had a larger impact on the human race. Pokemon. Yeah, I forgot about Pokemon because now now they just released Z through A. Uh man, so that that was sales of that. Close though, close second is Christianity, right? [laughter] You got to catch them all. So the ideas, the doctrines that have had a huge impact on so many human lives that oppose these two are the doctrines of faith alone and the vicarious atonement. Oh, specifically the vicarious toe. Okay, that's cool.
So, right.
If the idea that the faith alone is
Which are huge those
Faith alone is like what makes you a Christian? What makes you go to heaven? Did you confess your faith?
Yes.
Do you come to church?
Do you believe that Jesus is your savior?
Do you believe that Jesus is your savior?
Yeah.
Do you believe the Bible says what we say it says?
That's the thing. And so the the the the living by the ten commandments don't murder. Don't like go blah maybe I guess so. But the main thing is this. So you know what? We can still do the Spanish Inquisition under the banner of Christianity because it's got the faith right.
Yeah.
We can still do the you know the
It's trying to be trying to purify.
Manifest destiny under the banner of Christianity. Yeah. We can do that because it's about the faith.
Yeah. And the vicarious atonement part is very connected with that because uh it's the idea that Jesus is a separate being in the godhead from God the father and that Jesus atoned vicariously for us. We were really the ones who needed the atone. Jesus was a good person. Yes, we needed atoning for, but Jesus took the hit for us and and died on the cross for our for our sins.
And what's the problem with that idea? It is saying that Jesus was a sacrifice to an enraged father God.
Kind of an unlovable divine figure. Yeah.
Who would have or who needed to destroy all of us. But Jesus took that destruction in our place. So that is a heck of a picture of who God is and also who Jesus is. And it's and
Uh, it's directly opposed to the idea that Jesus is actually God.
Yes.
Is not some thing that gets sacrificed to God.
Right.
This is this is the this is the one he's down here live. Yes. He came and took on a human form and that's its whole own ball of wax, right?
Ball of yarn. Ball of wax. Oh, they do. You can Yeah, they make ball. People say that. Is that the whole ball? That's the whole ball of wax from this. Yeah. What is that from? I guess like you could roll it.
I I guess it rolls pretty easily. Yeah.
You know, back when you just had like a few candles to play with. That was your toys. You could roll one up every long winter nights. [laughter]
Okay. Oh, so so we're talking about the that that's he's he's it whole Oh, right. the its whole own extra thing to talk about God incarnating as a human being and why and we we've done many shows on that. Uh we're not dodging that question.
That's right. And you can see the biblical support for we don't have time to get into it all, but you can see the biblical support for these for some of those teachings, but you end up with like a God, the father who's way worse than the worst parent of the year. You know, like what
You're talking about me.
But what parent? I wasn't trying to be personal. But it's good to know that God is a little worse than that [laughter] because what what parent what what parent would ever would that it would take the sacrifice of your child to turn your heart. I mean, it's just it's a hideous.
So, you've got that and you miss this tremendous love that's there and the embodiment that when when you're dealing with Jesus, you're dealing with the whole it's not sort of play one off against the other, right? Kids learn very early, you got two parents, you can play well,
Jesus said I could do this.
The other one said that I could. So, [clears throat]
Okay. So that's that in some ways that's the more abstract less relevant conflict. It's there. It matters. But the the where where the rubber really hits the road is if you don't think Jesus is God, and this ties into the second idea, um that you don't believe that living in the way Jesus said you have to live is the way to heaven.
Yeah.
Have you ever follow me, take up your cross, all that all that?
Have you ever noticed like there's a lot of Christianity that doesn't really like go with the actual things that Jesus said.
It's interesting that I mean Swedenborg marvels at how many things are in the Bible about very very clear statements that you're judged according to your works, according to your deeds. Not only in the gospels but in the epistles of Paul and and in other places in the New Testament very very clear it's very hard to find actually evident they've sort of scraped out a couple of passages that sound like no it's only according to your to your belief.
Yes.
But the deeds judged by your deeds Matthew 25 with all the the you know, the sheep and the goats, the the whole thing is about how did you treat other people. There's not a word in there about what what what your faith did you have faith? Did you accept somebody as your personal savior or not? Doesn't say that. I I was in those people that you treated or mistreated.
Dude, dude, there's a lot of people walking this earth that says what makes you go to heaven or go to hell.
If you're a Christian, you go to heaven. If you're not a Christian, you go to hell.
You go to hell. I don't care if you're Gandhi, you go to hell. Yeah, that's right.
And what makes you a Christian? What makes you like if people say, "Are you a Christian?" It's a like a confession of faith. At some point you say say some words like Jesus is my savior or it probably differs in different congregations. But you go up to the front of the church and you you do it there or you get baptized as an adult or as a like that that's what people are saying.
Yeah. But if you actually go, so that's that's their that's the doctrine. If you go into listen to when somebody asks Jesus in the gospels, what do you have to do?
And what does he say?
Right?
He says, follow the commandments. He he talks about your your life. When when the people go to John the Baptist when he's preaching out there, they all say, "What should I do?" And he says, basically, I'm paraphrasing, "Don't be a jerk." Right? Isn't that kind of what he says? Don't take more than your than your due and treat other people. Well, it's all about how you live your life.
When they say to Jesus, what are the most important commandments? Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
Yeah. And so then you see oh there's this whole other thing which says what's the which the a Christianity that not for everyone but for quite a lot of people and certainly like over the course of history what has shaped the human race's trajectory is people saying you know what really m what's the difference between you going to heaven or you going to hell yes.
If you if you just heard that Christianity you would have expected you turn to the place where he says what make what shall I do to inherit eternal life. Uh that Jesus would have said become a Christian or what are the two most important commandments? Well, one is to accept me verbally.
Yeah.
As your Lord and Savior, say that out loud.
That's right.
To get baptized. That's what matters.
Yeah.
If you want to if you really want to go for an A++, yes, you can follow the commandments and and not murder and steal and all that.
And that would show your faith. You know, it it's just it's like the tail on the horse.
The the the horses that you believe if you do some good works fine, but it's it's really not entirely necessary because that's not what your salvation is based on because that would be merit. That would be you know,
You have uh you mentioned Gandhi a little while ago. Um, doesn't he have a quote a famous quote that's like I like your Jesus Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are not like your Christ.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Isn't that I think that's a real quote. I mean, you know, don't quote me on that, but there's a lot throughout history of people who do that zing like um
Yeah.
That's a symptom of a significant problem. If you if you have uh Christianity that does not make a bunch of people who emulate Jesus,
Yes.
Who instead emulate the Pharisees more more in you could what not all of them if you're watching I'm not talking about you there's there's there and when we get into critiquing religion which is important if you're in the religion thing look I'm a Christian I mean well, depends on what your definition is I mean to some people would say because I am into Swedenborg I wouldn't qualify as a Christian or I didn't get baptized in their church which again
That's right.
Is this opposition to the idea that they they made that up. They just made up that definition at some point and they they scraped a few passages together from the word and said we we're in charge of who's a Christian or not even though Jesus never said it. Um, so if it's not about emulating Jesus and and living the life that Jesus asks us to live then you get any manner of horrors coming into Christianity and the character of Christianity which is often can be correctly assessed by people outside of it is not one that is like Jesus. It's more like the Pharisees. is a little bit more like the if you look at the arguments between Jesus and the Pharisees more often the Christ the Christian movement that emerged post Jesus yeah not not everyone a lot of great Christians out there.
Oh yeah, I was yeah, I'm yeah, I'm Christian you know, I think there's plenty of good people but you got to admit the the general reputation of Christianity and rightly deserved in a lot of cases is that they're they're more like the Pharisees than like Jesus and nobody seems seems like overly concerned about that.
Yeah. People talk about a a kind of hypocrisy because there's a there's a judgment or saying, you know, you're you're not right. And yet, um, yeah, it just seems like there's this spirit, let's say, if you call it a spirit, this spirit does seem like it's abroad in you. You can find it in Christianity. a spirit of of um negative kind of judgment, self-righteousness and that I always think about the when the Lord heals somebody and then the Pharisees go you did it on the wrong day. I didn't like the way you did it. You know that kind of you know
Is there does that exist in Christianity? Yes, that exists.
And what that is
In nominal Christianity yes.
Is a superficial veneer of religiosity.
Right. That uh makes it impotent to actually addressing evil in the heart, which is what repentance is.
Right?
Because you you focus on these relatively meaningless things and you just put the I've checked the boxes. I'm not going to stop being self-centered antirist kind of person in my behavior. That's that's the struggle that's going on. So the the battle with the witnesses is the battle between the idea that we Jesus we are need to live by the teachings of Jesus and by the people who have taken the the Christianity and made it circumvented the teachings of Jesus by saying he's just a sacrifice and taking stuff from other parts of the New Testament wherever they got it or like to basically say there's Actually, there's a whole different new set of priorities that we we agreed on that's different than the ones that Jesus articulated.
Yes. That's right. That's right.
And that leads to a force in the world that does not bear the same uh stamp. It does not have the same impact on the world that Jesus had on the people around him when he was actually doing his thing. And so much of it is a question of priorities of what's the most important thing. And it's interesting to see how so I think what Swedenborg says is going on in the inner meaning of this passage is it's a prediction from before Christianity was hardly started that it's going to suffer later from a situation of subtly pushing these ideas of the vicarious atonement and salvation by faith alone to the front to the point where if you don't believe those things you're not Christian and we can't and that's what the not having the 666 and all that means. We did a whole episode on that, you know.
And so those have become primary, those have become a shibilith, a way of judging, you know, are you really in in the club or not? And what Swedenborg's saying is these two witnesses mean is that no, what makes you in the club? Do you believe that Jesus is God is the embodiment of the divine love come into the world to help us and to save us and that we need to clean up our act? First thing Jesus says is repent. You know, it's the first thing John the Baptist says is repent. Where did that idea go? That you need to amend your life. You know, you need to change. You need to take up your cross and and follow the Lord.
Think about the the opportunity cost there.
Christianity definitely has inspired a lot of people to try to live a good life.
Yes, absolutely. However,
It could have it could have done a lot more of that. If if it was really something that it its real focus was on repent and live a good life and that was what was drilled home in every sermon and that was the culture and there's real like think about how much more we could it could be cleaning up the human race's uh hearts and motivations, right?
There's a lot of it that becomes ineffective because the focus becomes on other things. And I'm thinking about a quote from a movie and I I'll bungle it. I won't even remember the name of the movie. Right. I think it was called Advocate. I think it's about is it um uh Al Pacino is a is the devil? He he's a lawyer,
But he's actually the the devil.
Yeah.
And he says at some point in the movie, "And can anyone really argue that the 20th century has been entirely mine?" He says,
Yeah.
"It's it's a powerful line because man, the number of the amount of killing, just sheer killing is at an all-time high." You know, it's amazing. And and if Christianity is on the right track, how do Christian country like how does a Christian world how does a world in which a third of the people on the planet are Christians get into such a mess?
Okay.
You know, there's isn't there a commandment about killing or something, you know?
Like h how did we get into this this situation?
Yeah.
You know, it seems like there's some kind of a decline going on. It's not something's wrong. Like the heat is escaping out the window. You've got this major spread of this religion. And as you say though, we do not see what you would expect, which is a major decline in murder and adultery and theft and everything that is against the teachings of Jesus.
Yeah.
You don't. So, okay, that I'm those are the stakes, man. Now
It talks about so the two witnesses are the the two true so this is about the clash between the the true the the true soul of Christianity and the the false Christianity.
Yeah.
And it says
Suddenly that hits closer to home, doesn't it? Like like okay this is a story about what we're going through now. You might think, "Oh, all those people out there that are like that." But I think that all, [laughter] you know, every single person who's, well, let's just say every Christian or every religious person, everybody's got something though. So, everyone who, let's just say everybody, you've got your like beliefs and your stated beliefs.
Yes.
And then there's like how you really act.
How you actually act.
And how you apply it to your life.
There's this clash. The witnesses.
That's right.
The the witnesses are clashing with the the beast in each of us and we
Absolutely right.
Try to get that to go the right direction.
I love that line in Paul's epistles that we wrestle not against flesh and blood uh but against principalities and powers. In other words, against these un unseen forces. In other words, there are spiritual forces that we're we're talking about. And they're present in each individual. Everyone has their own little battle about these things going on. That's that's why this is a holy revelation because this applies to everybody for all time. This is not just about Nero or something that went on in ancient Rome. This has a universality to it.
So,
And we all we have, you know, we have that judgmental. We we have a part of us that would love the rules. I I would love to, hey, just believe. H that's easy. I can do that. You know.
Yeah. I I I would love that.
Oh, yeah. I get on I get on this podcast and I talk about the Bible and I talk about God all the time and I talk about So, yeah, there we go. I did it. You know,
Job done. Now I can go do what I want. [laughter]
Versus like how how do I treat people in the store? How do I treat my family? How do I what what do I do? What do my thoughts dwell on? like there. Yeah, that's like there's work to do and you learn about the scope and nature of the work through the revelation.
So, in returning to the story of the prophecy, there's this whole thing about everybody who wants to kill these prophets gets burned up by fire or these witnesses, sorry, gets burned up by fire.
Now, that's doesn't seem like it's happening in the world. It seems like in the world often the wicked have more power than the good.
Yeah.
Uh
Something Swedenborg talks about a lot.
But if you understand what being burned by fire actually means. This is what he says. And if anyone wants to harm the two witnesses, fire will proceed from their mouth and devour their enemies. And if anyone wants to do them injury, he must be killed in that way. These have the power to shut heaven so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy. And they have power over waters to turn them to blood and to strike the earth with every plague as often as they desire. Okay, what that means is the fire that destroys the enemies of the two witnesses is hellfire which is the passion for evil. And it's not the two witnesses who are
The enemies
Actually causing that. It's it's they they take themselves down because of their rage. And
They may they may well be powerful in the world, but you're destroying your spirit because you're so consumed by these evils that you don't care about rejecting. So you cut yourself off from the truth. You cut yourself off from love when you go against the idea that we should live well. Our religion should be mainly about confronting and rejecting the evil in ourselves. Uh, you get consumed by that fire.
Swedenborg has so many stories of um speaking the truth to an evil spirit and the evil spirit just flies into a rage.
It's interesting that the it seems to come out of their mouths. You know, it's in response to something that they've said. The these these truths are proclaimed in some way. Something goes goes nuts. Uh, but it's not that the two witnesses are this destructive force. They're trying they're trying to do something good. They're trying to bring a new era about.
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So the fire so you have when you oppose this stuff, the witnesses, this fire consumes you, which is the fire of evil and and falsity. So then it talks about this attacking and killing of the witnesses. Will you will you refresh us on that?
It's
7 to 10.
When they finish their testimony, the beast that descends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Swedenborg covers the meaning of this extensively in Apocalypse Revealed, but we got Karn put together a summary of what that means, which I really think gets at what? to this like dramatic killing scene. What is that?
So when these teachings have been made known like when when you okay that's actually live by the ten commandments uh Jesus is is God and and Jesus you can't he's inseparable from his teachings. So his teachings are God. Um, so the the attitude of those two things that oppose it which is faith alone and blood atonement stuff attacks those ideas rejects those ideas and then they lose their status and stand they're like they're like dead they don't drive Christianity anymore. Um, Swedenborg says that self the self-centered will to dominate and rule over people and the narcissistic pride in your own intelligence which are the two driving forces of of evil.
Um, those reject the teachings of Jesus. Those it's anathema to those two things in us. The teachings of Jesus. It goes against the reason why it irks our ego so much is that it it goes against domination and pride of your own intelligence. So those things reject the idea that Jesus is God. They want to find a way to get that's not what God is like. Give me a little more of that Old Testament vibe or or some like where we have the keys to unlock heaven or hell. That that's what we want. We don't want this like humble yourself in the sight of the Lord. We don't want this um give what you have to the poor. We don't want this guy who's hanging out with the destitute. We don't want that. And so people bond over the rejecting of the actual [snorts] message of Jesus and the need to live according to those teachings in order to get to heaven. No, there's got to be a different way to get to heaven. It's like the the rich man went away sorrowful cuz he said, "Wait, I I don't want to do that." Which is not because again the whole Bible is symbolic. It's not saying uh it's impossible to have heaven and wealth at the same time.
But the because wealth is can be good or bad depending on what you're doing with it.
Uh, but but you can't have the correspondence of spiritual which is the belief that you are greater than others. Yeah.
The the selfish serving of you with everything that God has given you. Right. Uh, you can't have that and if that's the joy of your life, you go away sorrowful. So it's about people not being willing to give up their old religious way. That's that's the the witnesses in the street. And it really strikes me as a similarity to what we go through personally because um when some new spirit comes into our mind of of you know like the we feel that the Lord is closer or we increase our prayer life or we we do we move forward and and we take care of a bad habit we do some repentance or something like that there absolutely is an equal and opposite reaction something doesn't I don't look I'm not interested in a life where oh I get all this from God but I'm a big nothing. [laughter] I don't want I I reject that and so you can see that push and pull even in yourself you know well there's a part that reacts that says like I I don't want this sort of goody goody little life that you're talking about.
Is like what's the fundamentally exciting thing about life is Is it serving or being served?
Yeah.
Is it
Right.
The happiness of others or is it uh the contrast between or is it be being more fortunate than others?
Being dominant.
Dominating? Right.
It be be more glorious. You don't even always see it as that, but so like what's the joy in Oh, yeah. There's the unsaved and then there's the saved, which is me. Or it's Yeah. Or or this can
That's a great point.
Percolate into like okay well you know there's the people who go and do life and the winners and then there's the losers who don't or it's can be within your department well I I am the best one here my ideas are the best there's like a joy with that and and the what's the fire that gets me up it's it's to be better it's to have more it's to be somewhat in some ways superior to others and that's the the greatest thing would be that just if I was continuing to advance more and more have the good things in life. That's one category of the will to live. That's one category of the greatest joy in life.
Yes. Right. Right.
And then the other category is uh I'm excited about everyone's else's welfare. Like I I know there's a lot of good to be done. I want I want this person to be happy. This person is in need. I want to try to address that need. Those are those are two different those are like the the two opposite things. The the one if you just take it to extreme um the greatest news it could get was that everybody else fell on hard times
Because you you are now doing better than everyone else.
You know?
That's right.
And for the that's like to is the world that is is this all here to serve me? like I would rearrange the human race in a way where I would to benefit me in some way.
Yeah.
And then there's the like ah the the best thing would be to hear that that I became the worst off in the human race because that would mean everyone else must be doing great. Um, that's so much more greatness than just me. Like why why am I so much more important than everyone else? That's silly. I'm I'm not not important. I'm the same as everyone else though. Uh, those are the two things.
In our in our culture. It's so [clears throat] baked in at this point to think that what [snorts] you're doing here on the planet is to try to use the language of business, increase your market share or to you know increase your brand value or be be more prominent, be more impactful, be bigger, outperform the other, you know, competitors and
Be right.
Uh, you know, to have a better looking life, whatever.
Right?
And and to get into those upper echelons where they oh yeah, just the billionaires club or whatever it is, you know, you're you're up there running running with the top top people who are are the most influential in the world and how fascinating we've talked about it before on this show at least once I think that Swedenborg says that when everybody goes the other world you join these choruses and the whole idea of the chorus it's such a weird idea that there are no soloists.
And there's no leader. No one is any better than anybody else in the group. And anybody who has that idea gets kicked out cuz you're incompatible with the heavenly thing that we're trying to do here, which is that I, I support you. You're supporting you. You, I, I feel supported by you, you know. And, uh, so that's that's the kind of battle. Those two things are incompatible. You know, rule, rule. Everybody wants to rule the world, as the song said.
>> Yeah.
>> What about a world of of people who are just like, "I, I'm just thrilled when when somebody else, as you say, gets to gets to do well." It, it just, it thrilled me. It thrilled me not only that I was able to help that person, but that they don't even know I did it. You know, they think it was somebody else, or they, they think it just happened. Well, that's what those, that's what the sports movies are about. It's like, come on, get your ego out of it. You got to involve the team. And when they involve the team, they win the championship.
>> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Because it is recognized, as much as a culture is about egos, it is recognized that the, that the ego can totally get in the way. You get one, you know, hot dog on a team or something. Uh, hey, it's not all about you. You know, if you pass me the ball every now and then, I could set it up so you could do even better.
>> Everybody.
>> Or with my cousin Vinnie, where she says she's going to help him win his cases in the future, and at first he just rejects that idea, and she says, "Oh yeah, what a nightmare that I would help you win case after case after case." You know, that would be so awful for you, wouldn't it?
>> Yeah. So everybody praises with their lips if, if you have like a superstar NBA superstar who's like, they're like, "Hey, you know, you, you didn't shoot as well tonight." And he says, "Well, I'm just glad we got the win."
>> That, that's what everyone wants you to say because everyone recognizes like
>> that's good.
>> that humility and that. Yeah, that's right.
>> Yeah.
>> And just
>> [clears throat]
>> arrogance is actually not that attractive.
>> In science, like, you, you get, you think of science, the advances of science, and the, the help for the human race that they bring, like advances in medicine. Um, but you do sometimes have these people with their with their selfishness in these high scientific positions where they'll like try to sabotage and squelch each other. It's like, they, they would rather we not discover the cure to cancer. We'd rather, I'd rather it not be discovered than they get the credit, than they get the credit for it.
>> I am not sitting here or that you wouldn't be just as excited if somebody else solved the problem because while you're really there is because there's prominence in this position and stuff. So that the two things, the two things can't coexist. That's, yeah, it's very fun to me how we can take a Bible story that on the face of it is so weird. I mean, it just is a very, very weird story. But you dig into it, you reflect on it for a little while, and you realize, oh, it actually hits pretty close to home. You know, that is sort of what I'm, what's going on in me and in the world around me. We, we are in this, we are in Revelation 11.
>> The good news about being in Revelation 11 is it actually has a happy ending.
>> Oh, really? Because the witnesses were dead, but they make a, they make a pretty, uh, pretty full or complete, total comeback here. Would you read 11-13?
>> Okay. Now, after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake, 7,000 people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Dramatic, but quite a reversal there.
In a nutshell, it's that in the end, those ideas win. In an individual person, if you, if you cling to those things, they will bring you into the state of heaven. And in the world, I mean, Swedenborg is confident from from what he has seen that, no, in the end, this, the witnesses are going to come to life. People are going to, uh, make the living of a good life central to the, the religion thing, like that, that is going to end up as the dominant, in a good way, force there. And it's a lot like the, the story of Jesus's, uh, death and resurrection, which also happened to involve some three-day period and where he was truly physically dead and then then rose from the dead and, um, where the forces of evil for various arcane reasons are allowed. It's important for them to be allowed to attack, and their opposition to be revealed. You know, it needs to come out to the four that actually the spirit of this is dead set against these loving, beautiful principles. Isn't that fascinating? You know, and let that come out. Let that opposition be revealed.
>> But then this thing dies and goes literally goes to heaven. The witnesses come back to life and they ascend up, and the evil watch it. Which is like what's said about the second coming, that every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and that this will be, this will be witnessed, whether you're in favor of it or you're against it, you're going to see that, no, this really is the, those are the things that actually run our world. And the beautiful thing about it is that I think that this is talking, the whole way the book of Revelation is framed, this is talking about a, a permanent, it eventually this will be a permanent change for, for the better.
>> You know.
>> Jesus didn't become unresurrected.
>> No.
>> And there, and, and the witnesses won't sort of fall apart again or something. They, they went through this. And part of what I'm saying is they became stronger than ever, right? Um, just like other stories and and myths where they're under attack and it seems like the forces of evil have won, and all hope is lost. How many stories are are like that? They, we love those things.
>> The only ones that are good.
>> Yeah.
>> That's right. Exactly.
>> The only ones you want to watch.
>> Yeah.
>> Read.
>> But then, oh no, I thought they were dead. But no, they, they come back and they're stronger than ever for it.
>> So, let's talk about the, the future. Swedenborg talks about the new church. So, there's this, there's this new church that's going to come. There's this new era.
>> That can seem like this complicated. What is it? But it's really just when those two things happen. When everybody's, oh, there's just one God, and God is a, is a person that we can relate to. You know, you, you find God in, in Jesus, and what he's like. And that, that's, that's the best picture we have of God. And then that, that what religion is, is to live a life according to those teachings.
I just want to say, like, why do anything like Christianity? Why is there, or, or Islam, or Buddhism? Why is there anything like that? Why is there religion in the first place?
>> It has, unless it is a tool, an effective tool to getting you to lead a good life, then what is it? It is nothing.
>> Yeah.
>> It. People will frame it as it's a way to get on God's good side, that you jump through certain hoops, and you, that's how you,
>> that's how you get the reward of heaven, is because God has some boxes,
>> and if you check those boxes, you'll get the reward.
>> You get the whole pass. And you, why, why be religious? Well, because I want to go to heaven, and I need to do these things, uh, to go to heaven. That's not the same as this is going to make, this is a tool to get me to repent and be good. And this is a tool to allow me to struggle against and overcome evils of every kind, and instead love and be be wise, and and save me from hell, including the hell of being the great I am, and the dominant force in the universe. You know, it, like, part of that spirit, the reason that spirit has to be cast down, is that it, it's of hell. That, that's the attitude that people in hell have. That's what they've devoted their their lives to. There's actually something hellish in that. There's something heavenly in the cooperation, mutual support, love, appreciation of differences, you know, celebration of of
>> because otherwise you have this strange seeming divide between your religious institutions and let's say non-governmental organizations,
>> right?
>> So religious institutions were trying to make sure you go to heaven by saying these prayers and doing these things. A non-governmental organization is looking out and saying, "Well, there's this problem that there's all these malnourished kids in this particular region of the world because there's been this conflict. We need to go and stop that from happening,"
>> right?
>> Uh, so let's find a way to get rice over there. Let's find a way, you know, like there's the doing of good there, whereas the the religious stuff is not, is not solving the problems on the earth because it's just, let's just make sure after you die you get to heaven,
>> right?
>> That there shouldn't be a, there shouldn't be a split. That shouldn't be an either-or,
>> right?
>> That in the process of religion is the, the big NGO that goes after, well, why is there a famine? Because of people's motivations. Why do people go to war? Because there's unchecked evil inside them.
>> [clears throat]
>> Why don't people share? Why don't people care for each other? Because there's greed and apathy. And and basically it all stems from the, the practical application of the love of self, which is like, I matter, or who cares about those people? Yeah. And then, and then the, the, the in everyone and everyone who contributes to the dysfunction of the world through doing things that destroy society in in all their various ways, that the point is to eradicate that or to change that, and to change people from being part of the problem,
>> to being neutral, to being part of the solution.
>> Right?
>> That's what it's, that's what it's for. It is to solve the problem of human behavior and the human motivation. That's what that's what it's got to be for, or else, um, that's weird that if focusing on the things that God wants us to focus on don't address the suffering in the world, you know?
And Swedenborg gives a, a sort of an indication, like a diagnostic tool for telling for assessing how religion is doing, particularly Christianity, but I think the same applies to all religions. That he's, he says that if love became the primary thing, he actually is so bold as to say that overnight, all the denominational tensions, the judgment, well, that's not a real, you know, we're the, we're the reformed group, so we know what it's like, those other, you know, those, they don't know what they're doing. It's, that's not real, you know, and, um, all that would go away because you'd see, I see this is a good person. Everybody has their own beliefs. Beliefs are just what, what guide you. I can see that you're being a good and loving person. That's, and so we're, we're on the same team. We're all, we're all on the same. It would become one team. And so that's an interesting, uh, kind of yardstick to hold up to say, how are we doing? How, how are the religions doing and everything? Is, is there, is there divisions? Because what causes the divisions is this focus on doctrine. You're not teaching the right doctrine. You're not, you know, you're not thinking right. You don't, you don't think the way the right thinking people think.
>> It is to to recognize evil and be able to confront it effectively. To confront it effectively is to confront it in yourself.
>> Yes.
>> Because
>> Exactly. It starts with the
>> in your. And to acknowledge self-centeredness. So that self-centeredness wants to say, well, if I'm going to confront evil, the main focus is going to be looking out and
>> and trying to identify which people are evil, because there's not that, there's no utility in that. However, what that does is ignore you confronting the evil
>> Yeah.
>> in yourself.
>> Right?
>> So that's what, and, and that the teachings of the actual teachings of Jesus are very useful in that. But the self-centered, narcissistic, narcissistic part of us wants to find a way to circumnavigate that.
>> That's right.
>> So let's find a different. Can't we? Sure, you got to be religious. You got to be Christian. Okay, let's find a way to have that be about something else than this, than the actual repentance that's going to show up. It should be that people who are outside of, let's say Christianity in this case,
>> you, what you want to get is where they're like, "I don't know if I believe in all that, but man, that produces some good people." That you, I think you could say you gauge the belief system based on the quality of the people it produces.
>> That's right.
>> If, if you go there to visit, do you feel like you're, you're welcomed? Are you, right? Like, is it a good atmosphere? Is it, is it hostile?
>> It's not a simple thing. It's not a simple thing to sort out what's the best way to, uh, to be good. But things like this story give us some tools and insight. So the two witnesses, knowing about them and what they are, can help you understand the big dynamics in the world. It can help you understand the dynamics in yourself. And we hope that, uh, y'all got something you can use out of this episode.
>> Thanks, Jonathan.
>> Thank you, Curtis.
>> Thanks everybody for watching.