"I See Angels and Demons" Michael & The Seer | Blake Healy

I'd see angels and demons in about equal measure. There was this sense of separation. And even though I could identify that's something that might be scary, there wasn't any sense of immediate danger.

I looked up and instead of my mom, I saw this just kind of shadow. As soon as I looked at it, it it kind of sunk into the crack. Walked around to the edge of my bed. It kind of had these milky white eyes. Its eyes flashed and I felt this overwhelming sense of fear. Absolute panic was just going through my body. It happened night after night after night for for three and a half years.

You have this question, which is, "Am I, am I a highly functioning schizophrenic?" They talked to me about this concept that I hadn't heard of before, that they called "seeing in the spirit." Something in in that recipe of of uh expanding the options from either, "I'm going crazy," or "The devil's decided to ruin my life," to this third option of, "Maybe I have a gift that I just haven't learned how to manage yet."

This is your daily experience. It is. Do you see these things now? Like, right now, just that we're talking at this very moment? What do you say? Right now, I can see, uh, your personal angel standing right behind you, just, uh, behind your, uh, left shoulder.

Haley Joel Osment in The Sixth Sense saw dead people. My guest today does not see dead people, but he says he does see angels and demons. And that would be the author of The Veil, Blake Healey. Blake, thank you for coming on the show. Oh, happy to be here.

Tell me, you've said since you were a kid that you can see angels and demons. Yeah, yeah. Know, in fact, my, my very first memory is seeing an angel. I was, I was two years old. I was sitting in the backseat of our, our minivan. My mom was at the drive-through window at the bank, kind of chitchatting with the teller. And she was playing some worship music on the radio. I remember sitting back there and looking up and seeing just about, about a half dozen of these, um, baseball-sized lights just kind of drifting back and forth in time with the music. And I don't really remember having any clear sense of what it was exactly, but I remember feeling this, like, sense of peace as I was, I was looking at it.

And my, my second memory is seeing a demon. I was, I was in my parents' bedroom, which was, uh, on the lower floor of our house. And my parents were in the kitchen, which was directly above. And I, I remember I was standing there and I could hear my parents speaking. And I could tell by the tone of their voice that they were in some kind of argument. And as I was looking up, trying to hear what they were saying, I, I saw this face just kind of morph out of the ceiling. It was, it was long and it was pale and it had these, uh, these sharp pointed teeth. And as I looked at it, it kind of pulled away from the ceiling and drifted towards me, which I definitely didn't appreciate very much. So I did the only spiritual warfare tactic I knew at the time, which was to jump into my parents' bed and pull the covers over my head. Which apparently worked, 'cause after a few minutes, I, I looked out and it was, it was gone.

And so from the very beginning, all of my memories, just throughout the background, I just remember seeing these spiritual things, just about anywhere we'd go.

Okay, I, I believe you. But people who don't believe you are going to say, "Little kids imagine all sorts of things." One time I was hallucinating as a kid and I saw a lady sitting on top of my door throwing watermelons at me. So how do you know it wasn't a hallucination?

Well, part of it is just kind of how my story continued. You know, I, I, I, whenever I'm explaining my, my story, I, I call this initial stage of my life a time of mutual ignorance because I, I didn't realize that anything I was seeing was out of the ordinary. And my parents didn't realize that I was seeing anything out of the ordinary as well. That I, you know, when you're a kid, it's sometimes hard to remember, but, you know, everything is new. You see something for the first time almost every day. And so I remember I can kind of, in retrospect, go back and remember seeing this big black flying dog and pointing it out to my parents and saying, "Oh, look at that big black flying dog." And them being, "Oh, that's nice, honey." You know, in the same way if I would have pointed out a fire truck or a, you know, a garbage man or something else I'd find interesting.

And so it initially was something that that was just kind of in, in the background. And I, I honestly remember having conversations with some of my friends like at school, uh, thinking as I started to get, you know, you get a little bit older. You know, when you're two and three years old and you say you see a big black flying dog, people laugh and, you know, "Oh, that's nice." You know, when you get five, six, seven, eight, you start to get a funny look, a little bit. And so I remember being seven, eight years old, going to my friends on the playground, saying, "Hey, when you imagine things, you can like, sometimes really see them, right?" And the other kids, "Oh, yeah, sure. Sometimes my imagination is really strong and I just, I can actually see it." And at least for the time being, that was enough. I was like, "Oh, okay. This must just be my imagination."

Um, it wasn't really until I was about nine that my relationship with the things that I saw changed. And I started to realize that there was something out of the ordinary.

So how did it change?

Well, so as I mentioned, I, I'd see angels and demons in about equal measure. And even though I could tell that demons would look kind of scary looking, they would be, you know, kind of scraggly, skinny, you know, gray-skinned sort of creatures that had sharp teeth that would look kind of, you know, frightening. There's a variety of ways they would look, but they always looked a little bit scary. It, it wasn't, it was scary in the way of when you would see maybe a, a tiger at a zoo or something scary on the, on the television. There's this, there was this sense of separation. And even though I could identify that's something that might be scary, there wasn't any sense of immediate danger.

Um, but when I was nine, one evening when we were, when I was at home, that experience completely changed. Um, I remember it so vividly. My, my mom just tucked me in and put me in bed. And she walked out of the room, closed the door, left it open just a crack. And I could see, see her walking back and forth and her shadow disturbing the light that was, you know, coming into the room. And one moment, the, um, it stayed dark. And I thought my mom was coming to check on me. And so I, I looked up and instead of my mom, I saw this just kind of shadow standing there. It was just the basic silhouette of a, of a person. And it, it slunk. As soon as I looked at it, it, it kind of sunk into the crack. Walked around to the edge of my bed. And these kind, it kind of had these milky white eyes that were in, you know, approximately the space that its head would have been. And as soon as it got to the foot of my bed, its eyes, uh, flashed. And I felt this, this overwhelming sense of fear. It, as if someone, it was as if someone had just suddenly electrified me with the feeling of fear. It was running up and down my body. I felt like I couldn't move, couldn't breathe. Just this absolute panic was just going through my body. And I was locked in that space for some amount of time. I don't really know how long it was. But eventually, I was able to kind of move my shoulders a little bit and build up enough momentum that I was able to roll down on my face. And once I kind of broke eye contact with it, I was able to fall asleep.

So I woke up the next morning. The shadow was gone. That feeling of fear was gone. But the, and I, I, you know, I went throughout my normal day at school and things like that. I saw the same type of, you know, demonic and angelic things that I would see typically throughout a day. And I thought, "Well, I guess that was just a weird, vivid nightmare or something like that." But, but then when I came back to bed that night, uh, that shadow was standing at the foot of my bed. It waited there as my mom put me to bed. And then as soon as she walked right out of the room, its eyes flashed again. And again, I had that overwhelming sense of fear. And this led into a period of about three and a half years where every single night, I would see all kinds of horrible demonic imagery of varying types, uh, stuff from, you know, the worst horror movie, which is something that my parents definitely would, wouldn't have allowed at, at that time. It was new things that I was seeing. And it happened night after night after night for, for three and a half years.

You were seeing these atrocities. It, yeah, yeah. Again, I, I, I, I don't, it's something I don't mind talking about, but I, I always try to not overemphasize it because, you know, as life goes on, it becomes a smaller and smaller part of my story. But to give a few examples, I, you know, sometimes I would see a, you know, kind of a hideous demonic version of a person. It would be pulling its face apart and putting it back together in weird sort of ways. I would see hands coming up out of, uh, from under my bed and kind of pawing around like they were looking for something to scratch or, or pinch or something like that. I would sometimes, um, see, uh, small crawling black things all along my walls. And, you know, I grew up in a Christian family. And so I, but I, I was realized, I realized of course, at this point, that something was wrong. You know, but the, based on the context of what I had, I, I had decided that either the devil had decided to ruin my life, or I was just going crazy. And was really scared to tell my parents either of those possibilities because I didn't know what the consequences of that might be.

And so I told my parents that I was scared. And they did all the good stuff that Christian parents would do. They'd pray for me before bed, they'd give me scriptures to, to read out loud, let me play worship music in my room. But anything that I did just only felt like, you know, holding a candle in the middle of a blizzard. Just this very little sense of effect.

You told them you were scared before bed. You, you didn't tell them what you were seeing? No. I, I thought I would be, you know, taken away from them. I thought I would be sent to the, to kind of hospital, to looney bin, you know, wherever else. And so I was, I was scared to tell them what was going on. 'Cause again, I, I just didn't have a context for it. I, I'd heard stories of people maybe seeing a demon once or, or something like that, but nothing really like what I was experiencing. And so it was just kind of locked in this, uh, terrifying, increasingly terrifying stalemate for about three and a half years.

But if you didn't start out crazy, that could drive you crazy. I definitely started to feel a little bit unglued by the end of it. I mean, I, and again, it's, you know, you hear kids go through a lot of things and, and, you know, we're, we as people are pretty resilient. And so as, as overwhelming as that was, I still lived a pretty normal life. I went to school, I, I hung out with friends. But I didn't like sleeping at, over sleeping over at people's houses very much because I didn't want to deal with that experience while I was at people's houses. I would definitely start to get panic attacks before I'd be heading to bed and just really didn't know what to, what to do.

And it wasn't until I was, I was 12 years old and we, we, uh, moved across the country and started going to a new church that I finally got some relief. Um, we had a pretty traditional church background growing up, uh, uh, typical Protestant sort of, sort of background. And the new church we started going to was a little bit more on the charismatic side. And so they taught about the gifts of the spirit and, and prophecy and things like that. And I remember my mom took us to this class about learning how to hear God's voice. And again, this is one of those things that I just always considered that hearing God's voice was this thing that either, you know, happened in a big dramatic moment, or, uh, in a moment of crisis when someone is in danger. And, um, but as these people were teaching about the idea that, no, we can actually all hear God's voice. And in fact, we are designed to. And if we just practice and learn how to listen for him, we can have a conversation life with, with him. And even though nothing they described was exactly like what I was experiencing, it, it gave me just a little bit more of a grid for what was going on, a little bit more of a context. And whatever happened there, it gave me just enough courage to go to my parents and tell them the full extent of of what was going on.

This is around age 12. You tell them. I was a little, 12, 12 and a half at this, at this point. And so I, I told them that. Got a meeting with some of the church leaders that were there. And they talked to me about this concept that I hadn't heard of before, that they called "seeing in the spirit." And something in, in that recipe of of, uh, expanding the options from either, "I'm going crazy," or "The devil's decided to ruin my life," to this third option of, "Maybe I have a gift that I just haven't learned how to manage yet."

And then in, and also, of course, bearing with my parents and, and letting them into what fully what was going on. My, my experience with this stuff that I saw completely changed. I remember that first night after meeting with the church leaders, I got in bed. I saw the exact same kinds of things that I had been seeing for, for years at this point. But it was like all the sting had been taken out of it. It, what, what had been overwhelming and, and terrifying looked like a, a cheap puppet show made out of old Halloween decorations. Like it just didn't have the impact with it anymore. And over the course of just one week, it completely diminished. And I didn't have those, those nightly attacks anymore at all.

But you kept seeing things. I would still see things, uh, during, during the day. But it wasn't this, and it's, it was interesting. When I would see stuff during the day, it was almost like this passive experience. You know, and you kind of feel this way when you're a kid, like, "This is my space and everyone else is doing their thing out here. I'm on, I'm on the bus to school and all these people are out here doing this." And so all that, everything that I saw spiritually outside of that, it was about its own business. Didn't even show any indication that it could notice that I could see it at all. And so it felt in the background. Whereas when I would have these attacks at night, uh, it felt directed towards me. It felt invasive. It felt very personal. And so, yeah, there was a very different quality. And, and because I was having these nightly things, I, I honestly started trying to ignore some of the stuff that I was seeing during the day just because I, you know, obviously associated it to some degree.

You know, my next question, what's that? Do you see these things now? Yeah. No, just about anytime I have the mind to look. Like, right now, just while we're talking at this very moment. What do you see?

Well, uh, right now, I can see, uh, your, what I call a personal angel standing right behind you, just, uh, behind your, uh, left shoulder. And right now, um, he's a pretty tall, broad-shouldered fellow. And he has this, um, guess you'd call it a, a broadsword that he's holding in his hand. And, um, uh, I'm not an expert in medieval weaponry, although I probably ought to be given my, uh, profession. But, um, it's, I think the term is "feathered," where it's, uh, the blade is thicker at the end, kind of gets thinner in the middle, and then is, uh, thicker again at the end. And I see him very, very, um, carefully honing this blade. I can tell it's got also like interesting notches on, on the end of it. I see him, um, uh, honing this blade very, very carefully. And I can tell it's an intricate process, especially as it gets to these different notches and places that I imagine if I had to sharpen it, that it would be a difficult, you know, sort of, sort of process. And, and he's kind of going from one side, turning it over, going to the other side. And, uh, on the flat of the blade, on one side, the word is emblazoned, "Justice." On the other side is, uh, "Peace."

And, you know, whenever I see these things now, and as I kind of learned how to derive what kind of purpose it is for, especially when I see someone's personal angel, the question I always ask in my head is, "Lord, how, how have you equipped this angel to serve the the purposes that this person has in their life?" And, um, I know a little bit about you. I've watched, watched some of your, your, your shows and, and, uh, a little bit of your background. But, um, it was the first thing that occurred to me when I saw that sword is it looked like it would be very difficult to balance. Like it seemed more weighted towards the front, which seems like it would be an advantage in the strength of swing, speed, and, and everything, but would make it very difficult to use. And even the shape of the edge and, and everything, I imagine has particular use, but is something that would be very difficult to wield, even difficult to take care of. And the impression I get as I, as I see that is that you, you have had this gift of, of releasing justice and peace into all the different kinds of environments that you've been in over, over the years, and doing it with a great amount of strength, but a great amount of intentionality and wisdom. And that there's, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but there's, uh, I imagine a real sense of the precariousness or the difficulty of aiming correctly and, and aiming each stroke with, with wisdom and accuracy. And I just want to encourage you that again, I feel like God has, uh, equipped you with an, with an angel that is, uh, meant to serve that purpose and to continue to refine that gifting in your life.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, certainly. Lovely to hear.

Yeah, sure. I notice you've, you've looked around the room a little bit. I, I've looked around the room a little bit too. Is that just a reflex as you talk, or are you noticing other things?

Well, interestingly, it's, it's a bit of both. You know, I, I've always been a naturally curious person, so I have interest in how, how your crew operates and, and things of that nature. Yeah, you know, it's all, it's all fun stuff. I have a casual interest in. And then, yeah, there's stuff going on in the spirit all the time. And, and, you know, as I've gone through the years and built a kind of spiritual vocabulary, I, there's a lot of stuff that I can understand and interpret very easily or quickly. But other things that I'm like, "I'm not sure what that is." I'll file that away for, for, for later and hopefully be able to have a conversation with it, uh, about it with the Holy Spirit later and get, get some kind of insight about what that might mean.

Uh, to give it kind of a general idea, as I was walking around your guys' offices and space here, um, um, I noticed, um, a number of angels moving around carrying these kind of crates. And they're sort of the industrial kind of wooden shipping crates that you see like equipment stuff being mailed or delivered different places. So big, big wooden crates and carrying them around and delivering them, uh, to different rooms. And, um, a few of them were opened. And I noticed that what was inside of them was mainly, um, what looked like kind of raw materials. Like, like, uh, I don't actually know if how they do this normally nowadays, but, uh, sequential bricks of like iron and gold and, and silver. And as if, like, it was being prepared for, for smelting or for preparation. And, um, I asked the Holy Spirit what, what that was about. I was just observing that. And I just heard him say, "I'm, I'm preparing them for the, for the next phase."

And again, I, I, I've only casually followed you and, and some of the others in, in this, this, uh, network. But, um, often times when I'm in an environment or in a business or in, in a space, there's different things in the spirit that are going that have to do with what God's doing in that, in that space. And I, um, I felt that both practically and spiritually, there is a large amount of supply that's, that's, that's coming in. And it is, um, it's interesting because there, and again, in his divine wisdom, and, and he both gives us free will and also is, is sovereign. What it was interesting to me that it was raw materials because to me, that is an invitation to, "What would you like to make out of this? What would you like to, uh, smelt this into?" And, you know, it's perhaps an over, overly simple, uh, uh, perspective, but I've come to think that, uh, in that relationship between my free will and his sovereignty, that sometimes there's specific things that he asks us to do. And then there's sometimes that he just equips us to do things that we, uh, it's the equivalent of like, "Dad driving in the car with you," versus, "Hey, why don't you go, go to the grocery store and pick up a few things?" You know, that there are times that he opens up the opportunity but brings the provision for, for a more open opportunity. And so that's what I felt as I was, uh, again, just watching them carry those things around, setting some of those materials sometimes up in here and so up in these different spaces, uh, preparing you for what's next.

That's more interesting than whatever I was talking about. That's probably a good thing to pay attention to. It's funny because you, you're able to function and operate with an earpiece in your ear, which seems miraculous to me. That's like, seems like they'd be juggling two things at once. Whereas, but my producers, they're not, they're not that, you know, I mean, they're nice guys and they're interesting, but I, there's, it's not quite as much, um, significant information coming in. I've definitely got a lot of practice in juggling my thinking.

This is your daily experience. It is. It is. So previously, when you were just talking about this in the abstract, I would think, "Okay, well, whatever. I ignore birds and squirrels and things." So, but as you describe it with such vivid, uh, you know, description, it seems like it would be much more difficult to ignore.

Yeah, it, it is and it isn't. Um, you know, like right now, or any person watching, you're in a room in the physical, and there's all kinds of stuff going on. There's full complex electrical systems that are making stuff around you function. There's all the principles of physics going on, operating at full board. There's a probably a number of decorations and details, and each of them has a history and a meaning, especially if it's in your home. There's a reason that that was there, even if it's as simple as, "Oh, my wife saw this at the store and liked it." You know, um, and there's a story behind it. All those things. Now, I, I think our brains, you know, we can, we're capable of seeing a lot, taking it all in as a whole, and also focusing in. And really, at any moment, you can, maybe you've never even looked at what the lights look like in your bedroom very much, but if you stop and pause and really look, you can think, "Oh, that's that kind of light. I've seen that kind of light before." But most of the time, you just don't really think about it.

And so I'm still definitely very much just a human being. And so my capacity to be aware of everything that's going on, I can definitely, in, in macro, just as I would with a crowd or with anything else, see a lot of what's going on, maybe try to be aware of thematically what's going on over a region or an area. But then I can also just focus in on a specific, as, as I just did, you know, individual thing that's, that's going on. And there have been times that it's definitely overwhelming. But just like anything else, uh, you know, when you travel to a new country, you tend to get much more, uh, assertive and active about looking because everything's a little bit different. And, and you're curious about those differences. And so you can almost feel exhausted by the end of the day, just from all that, uh, extra applied attention. And so when I'm kind of turning up that awareness, definitely, it's something I'm taking a lot. But when I'm hanging out with my kids, when it's day-to-day, it's there in the background. And if there's a highlight, if there's something that stands out, if the equivalent of a water faucet leaking or something, you know, sparking or something like that, then it does catch, catch my eye a little bit.

But I suppose maybe an analogy is, even just perfectly within the natural realm, if I see something, I see the matter and I perceive that, yeah. But I can also perceive, uh, meaning. So, or conceive of meaning of it. So, you know, I see that door, or, you know, whatever that, that door off of any kind of edifice, yeah. And I can see that, and I see it's made of wood and it's got a handle. And, but I can also, uh, interpret it and derive some meaning from that. So there are two things happening at once, even though there's only one physical object. And maybe that's somewhat similar to what you're describing with the physical and the spiritual. And, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's always there. And I, you know, you can imagine that I think if, you know, the Lord divinely just snapped his fingers and switched that on for you, I'm sure, or for anyone else, that that would draw a lot of attention and probably be overwhelming initially. But that wouldn't be terribly different from how overwhelming it would be for someone who's from, you know, rural Kansas going to New York City for the first time, like, "Oh, this is." Whereas a New Yorker probably walks through and is maybe knows to look for certain things, but is mostly just, uh, unimpressed by some of the gruesome spiritual images that you see. You might actually just see them physically in New York, you know, you might just ooze and slime and smells and things.

Well, this then raises another question, though, which is, uh, angels and demons, to my understanding, are pure intellect. So they're not, they don't have bodies. But you see bodies.

Yeah. And, you know, I, I'm always cautious with the way with bringing too much definition to the things that I see because I'm, I'm a person with an experience, not necessarily an expert apart from the experience that I've had. And so I, but I've come to the conclusion that the things that I see are what I like to call a visual representation of spiritual reality. It's another way of saying is it's a literal metaphor. It's, it's I am seeing an inter, a prophetic imagery, if you will, of what that thing is. And so I, I'm always kind of cautious where I put the, uh, the the slider of the, the metaphorical versus the literal. Do I think that that angel literally really is, you know, approximately, uh, seven feet tall? Um, I, I think maybe that kind of of reality is, is maybe an inaccurate way to think of it in the, the physical sense. Yeah. But it is a representation of authority. You know, that that sword is literally used to cleave things. Is maybe going a little bit too literally, but understanding that its, its shape has a kind of literary sort of meaning, you know, in the way that it looks.

My friend Andrew Claven makes this point that which sometimes people think is too cute, but I think it's actually quite, um, insightful, which is that the word literal refers to letters, which are symbols. Yes. So you, it's one does not. And also in, you know, if, if you really believe, as I do, that man is body and soul, that there is that we're not just all materialists or bags of flesh, then, yeah, of, then the line between the literal and the figurative is going to be pretty blurry. And if you believe that God took on flesh and dwelt among us, then it's going to be, uh, even, even all the more so, inseparable. Yeah. Certainly. Yeah.

That's, that's definitely one thing I always try to emphasize to people is, especially in our kind of Western materialistic society where we're so used to, even from a young age, being trained to focus on the material and to see it as more valuable or real, that that when we approach some of these things, uh, we think of it as like, "Oh, this is the other place," or "This is this far away place." And really, this is just part of creation. It's one integrated system. Right, right. If I, if I notice mathematical patterns or geometric patterns, that's not, I'm not, it's not that the math is like totally separable from the flowers or whatever I'm looking at, you know, it's just, it's the created world, right? So these things often inhere in one another.

Okay, so this is part of your everyday experience. And, uh, it's been going on for a very long time. When you do finally come clean about what you're seeing, you're in this nurturing environment where they don't send you to the looney bin, they just say, "Maybe this is a spiritual experience."

Mhm. Yeah. Which I, I'm very fortunate. 'Cause after, you know, writing about it and speaking about it for, for several years now, I've, I've run into a lot of people who were not as fortunate, who have been able to see in the spirit since they were quite young, but were either in dangerous environments or environments that that deeply misunderstood what was going on and, and suppressed it or whatever else. And so I was very fortunate. But there was still a lot of initial challenge. You know, in the, in the charismatic world, there's this idea of these, of the spirit are meant to so that we can, we can bless other people, we can serve God's purposes, you know? And so I immediately felt this sense of pressure of, "Okay, if this is a gift and it's something I want to use to bless other people, so that means I'm, you know, kind of inherently responsible to share it with others and hopefully help them out." And so, uh, sometimes this went great, and sometimes it didn't go so great.

Uh, you know, I, I quickly noticed as I, uh, was started observing the things that I was seeing with kind of more intentionality, that that sometimes there was this, um, obvious meaning in, in the way that things, uh, looked. You know, if we, if I went into a worship service at our church, I would see angels, uh, dancing with, with banners in an almost choreographed way along with the kind of rise and fall of, of people worshiping. And, you know, I'd share that with the worship team afterwards, they'd be blessed. If like, "Oh, heaven's partnering with, with the way that we're worshiping, and that's awesome." You know, I'd, while our pastor was, uh, teaching, I would see angels with, uh, bolt cutters going around cutting chains off of people. And then as you continue with the message, it would end up being about obtaining freedom in Christ. And again, share that with him and be a blessing. All, maybe it's a little weird that angels are carrying bolt cutters, but it, it is this, uh, synchronicity of, uh, heaven's partnering with, with what we're trying to do here. And so sometimes it was sensible and there was kind of a clear meaning.

Other times it would be kind of strange. You know, I, uh, remember there's this one day our pastor invited people to the front who had never experienced the, the presence of the Holy Spirit before. And so that they could be prayed for. And as he invited them up, I saw this orangish, yellowish, reddish smear of light come into the room. And it was, moved around in a kind of liquid way, but it seemed solid in places and then somewhat gaseous in others. And it came and it, it swished along the line of people this way, swished along the line of people this way, that way, and then flew out the window. And I thought, "What, what does that mean?" And so again, I see this, and that means I'm supposed to say something, right? So I talked to our pastor, and he was just as confused as I was. And so I'm like, "Well, this is, this is awkward." You know? And so some of what I would see made a kind of logical sense. Other things would be more abstract. But as I kind of would, and, and I again, I felt this sense of duty, so week after week, I would just sit at the back of our church and I would look at what was going on over the course of, of the service and try to understand it, and try to make sense of it, try to see what I was supposed to, you know, do with it.

And, you know, I, I didn't like looking for demonic stuff. And as I, I was looking for angelic stuff more and more, I, I would see more and more of that and less and less of the bad stuff. But I would still see it from time to time. And so I thought, "Well, this isn't very pleasant, but I, I'm seeing it, so I should probably say something about it." And so I, I remember the first time I decided to try that, I was 13 years old. And so I'm sitting at church, uh, in the front row, and service has just come to an end, and everyone's kind of milling about, talking to each other and everything. And like, "Okay, I got to get over this fear, you know, to start talking about some of the demonic stuff I see because if I'm seeing it, I should say something." And so I look around the room. There's two or three possible options. But I, I see this guy at the back of the church, and I see this demon on his shoulder. I see what it's doing. And, and so I'm like, "Okay, I, and, and this guy is a person I'd already talked a little bit about, uh, my experience with seeing the spirit." So that's a slightly less, you know, complicated conversation. And so I'm the kind of person that I, I either need to do something right away, or I'm going to be stuck thinking about it for six and a half months. And so I'm like, "Okay, just get up and do it."

So I got up. I walked up to him. And again, I'm 13 years old. He's in his mid-50s. I'm, you know, this tall, and he's, you know, 18 feet tall. And, yeah, I walk up to him. And as I'm walking up, I'm like, "I got to say something like, help or informative, right?" And so I, I look, I'm like, "Hey, buddy, your left shoulder, right, right?" And so I look, I see what the demon's doing. I kind of get an interpretive sense of what that means. And so I walk up to him and I say, "Uh, excuse me, I, I, I couldn't help but notice that you have a demon on your shoulder. And I think you should stop looking at pornography." And he turned, uh, red and then purple. And, yeah, a few quarter, quarter-constructed words came out of his mouth and then stomped off.

Now, what was weird about that situation is I, I can, of course, in retrospect, realize I made several errors in the way that I approached that situation. But, but probably good advice to him. Yeah, yeah. What was funny was, um, I was actually surprised by his reaction because even though I would see that stuff around people sometimes, it didn't hold this sense of, um, condemnation or, or it didn't make me think badly of them at all. It made me think, "Oh, this, this thing's bothering you. That's, that's that's annoying." You know, I'd want that to, that gone. And so at the moment, I was genuinely shocked by, by his reaction.

So sometimes you were shocked by his shame? Yeah, yeah. But he should be ashamed. He should be. But it, it, I don't know, for some reason, I, it was just probably childhood naivety that that I thought like, "Oh, this is just in, in, 'cause when you, when you see things in the spirit, you don't fully understand it." But I used to say, you recognize something about it. And so some of the meaning is, is inherent. And so, um, I, I, I didn't realize this really until years later, but often times when I'm seeing these things, I'm, I, it is a practice in viewing things from a more heavenly perspective, from God's perspective. And though God, uh, most certainly does not approve of what he was doing, it, he doesn't see it as needing to be attached in the same way. It's, it's to me, kind of embodies that mystery of, "There's no condemnation in Christ Jesus." It doesn't mean that the thing is any less wrong, but it's just really, he genuinely sees those things. That's, that's not part of you. That's not supposed to be part of you. And so the, the feeling, it, to me, it, again, it doesn't, it, I can see why it's a, a naive thought now, but to me, it seemed that the realization that this was, uh, a kind of demonic attack or oppression should make it the person feel vindicated rather than ashamed. You know? And, and because it's not, because it's not you. Yeah. At the very least, it's not your nature. You're still, I guess, responsible for the behavior. But the, that there's this, uh, this deeper negative part that isn't you. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be part. Rather. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so some of the stuff that I would see would, would make a kind of intuitive sense. Other things would be kind of mysterious in the way that they looked. And other things, when I'd share it, sometimes it would scare people a bit. And so just bit by bit, I would start to assemble a kind of understanding. And I, I, I remember the first moment that I had when I started to get a kind of deeper language for understanding these things that I saw. Um, there was this angel that I would see every week at our church. It was at the entry, entry way to the sanctuary. And I would see it every week. It was, uh, wearing this, uh, suit of armor that was immaculately clean, just bright and shining. It, uh, looked like it was in its mid-50s, had a, uh, beard. Again, I don't know if angels can be in their mid-50s, but that's how he looked. And, um, he was holding a weapon in his hand, standing at attention, looking into the middle distance. Everything about his posture looked like a guard or a protector.

And so I'm sitting there thinking about that, thinking, "Okay, that's a clearly a guard or a protection angel. But why, why do we need that? What's, what's the purpose behind that?" You know, is that if a demon tries to come in this door, there's going to be, you know, this battle about whether the demon can come in or, or not. Uh, that doesn't seem quite right, you know? What if the angel, what if a demon comes through the back door? What if it comes through the wall? Why couldn't do that, you know? And, and for that matter, you know, we're, we're covered in the blood of Jesus. God's presence is, is with us. We have the Holy Spirit inside us. You know, what, what additional protection does an angel provide in that scenario?

And so I'm just rolling this around in my mind. And as I'm thinking about this, I suddenly have what I would call a vision. Now, it's not the kind of, I wasn't seeing anything with my physical eyes, but it's like all of a sudden, this short film just played on the screen of my imagination. And in this, in this vision, I just very quickly saw these, these two kingdoms. And the king of the first kingdom sent an ambassador to go to the foreign kingdom. And that, and with this ambassador, he sent a small honor guard, about 30 or 40 soldiers. And they marched with him along the road and went into this foreign kingdom. And as they approached this foreign kingdom, on the walls of it, I saw many hundreds of soldiers. And I thought, "Well, gosh, that's way more than this honor guard." And as they went into this foreign kingdom, there was still yet hundreds more of, uh, these, these soldiers and people. And I thought, "Well, man, if this kingdom decided to attack, this guard would be almost pointless."

But in, in that thought, and in seeing this, was the answer. That this honor guard was not just about the practical protection that it provided. It was just as much, if not more, about the statement that was made by, by its presence. That this, this was, um, though practical, also symbolic. A statement of, "My power goes with this person." It was a statement of of value, of of purpose, of meaning. And as I had that run through my mind, I turned and I looked again at this angel. And even though I, I could see it just as well as I had before, uh, it was like every detail about its appearance suddenly stood out more starkly. The, the, how immaculately clean and well-taking care of his armor was, the way he was standing at attention, all spoke of the, the value that he had for his assignment. The, the purpose. Even the appearance of age spoke of of longevity, of of maturity, of of, uh, length of service, you know? And so I, I started to realize again that there's this line between the literal and the metaphorical. That I can misinterpret things by maybe going too metaphorical and thinking this is just an abstract idea of protection. But I can also, you know, make a mistake by going too literal and thinking there has to be this big fight, other or God's purpose or the enemy's purpose is going to come to fruition, waiting for, waiting for the action to unfold, right? Instead, it's, "What statement is being made by this thing's presence? What is it, what is it saying?" And that's that kind of interpretive process started to, uh, bit by bit, make more sense of these things that I was seeing.

Yeah, a priest friend of mine says, uh, he's not the first to say it, that it's a wicked generation that seeks after a sign and a wonder, and to none will it be given but the sign of Jonah. But that it's a stupid generation that ignores signs and wonders. You know, which I think is an important, uh, you know, addendum, perhaps, to that. Yes, absolutely. So even there was a, a great professor I had who is a Dante scholar, who made a point in a work on Dante called, um, Dante, Poet of the Desert, that Christians, maybe this is my extrapolating from his point, but I think this is basically the point he was making, that that Christians before we're called to activism or something.

Like that, we're primarily called to interpret. You know, uh, we, we refuse to. So many people refuse to interpret the signs of the times. You can't say, you know, uh, that that we, you know, being physical, but also, uh, spiritual, also intellectual, and, and having will, uh, that we, we have to draw meaning out of things and then, uh, you know, act in accord with that. But, uh, I don't know, that doesn't really appeal to our activist age. We always want to be doing something. But, uh, we are kind of primarily contemplative. We're, we're not the chief actors in salvation. We are recipients of grace, but we don't, we're not saving ourselves here. You know, we're, uh, we, well, I don't know. We, to a wicked generation, no sign will be given, none but the sign of Jonah.

MH, mhm. Yeah, yeah. It's, and it was interesting, this tension between, you know, I didn't realize it really until retrospect, but I, I kept trying to understand the things that I was seeing in terms of their utility. Yeah. And it wasn't really until, not, not really one moment or experience, but the, the kind of reflection on a cumulative experiences over many years, I realized that the, the in the statement was often the most powerful thing that was, that was there, rather than the utility. And when it comes down to it, I think someone like God, uh, utility means a very different thing when you're omnipotent. Yes.

Right, right. Of course. I mean, I, I've had a number of experiences that I would call numinous or religious experiences, uh, maybe not quite frequently and vividly as yours. But when I've described them, one friend of mine, he said, what do you think the purpose was of that experience? What do you think we were supposed to do? What do you think? And I, I thought, maybe I'm lazy or thick or something. But I thought, if, when those experiences happen, I consider it to be a wink of Providence, a reminder of God's order in the universe. And, uh, if, if I am to draw any particular meaning out of it, often I will just say, well, I suppose I was supposed to be there. You know, I, right place, right time, I guess. Yeah. And I, I, I'm content with that. Maybe that means I'm uncurious or something. But I can't, I don't know that I can do much better than than that. Yeah.

No, even, even though this is such an integrated part of my life, holding it somewhat loosely seems to be part of the process. At least to me, that I, you know, anytime I've, and, and people sometimes pull on me in these ways of like, anytime we try to derive like, you know, hey, who's going to win the election? Or, or, or what, what should I do with my job? Or things like that. There, there occasionally moments of things that, that are insightful to that. But, yeah, I, when I, anytime I've tried to go down those paths, it just hasn't felt right. It, it's, what, what has always felt most right is how does this reveal God's nature? What does it say about him? And any other interpretive metric, to me, has just, uh, not led me into a helpful place.

You know, I, I remember this one time, I, um, I was, uh, I was working at a, at a warehouse store when I was, uh, younger. And I was the low guy on the totem pole, so I was cleaning up at the end of the night. And last few shoppers are there. And I'm looking, and as I've had seen for years, every single person I see has a personal angel with them that's walking alongside them, carrying something that has to do with with the purpose that God's called them to. And, you know, again, I'm just running these series of questions in my mind. This is, you know, around the time we were rounding up to Bill 8 billion people on the on the planet. And I thought, okay, there's 8 billion people on this planet. Does that mean there's 8 billion angels wandering around? You got so many people, you know, dying every, every second, so many people being born every second. You know, is, you know, if someone dies, are they reassigned to someone else? You know, what's, what's the logistical structure of of how this work? Is there any sabbatical you can take? Yeah. Did they get a break? You know, yeah. You had a really rough one. So, you know, you can, you know, running this all through my mind. And, and again, I don't think it's wrong to speculate on these things. But, but as I was, um, speculating about that, this, this man walked, walked in front of me. And he's, you know, shopping for some, some things. And I look at this angel that's with him, wearing a kind, a simple blue tunic. And I'm just kind of running these thoughts through my mind. And, and this happens very rarely. Usually, the angelic stuff I see, it is very focused on whatever task it's called to. It almost never shows me attention of any kind. But this, uh, particular angel, just for a moment, looked and made eye contact with me. And again, at this moment, I, I had this vision just play through my mind. And in it, very rapid fire, in a kind of montage sort of way, I saw this, um, this young girl, uh, being born. And I saw this very same angel with her. And I saw this girl throughout her life. I saw all of, and unfortunately, she had a very painful life. She had a dad who didn't treat her well. She had a very, um, tumultuous household. And I just saw the angel with her in these moments, uh, hiding with her when she was hiding from her father, uh, uh, covering her when she was, when she was crying at at night, uh, you know, walking with her and comforting her as she would go to school with, uh, you know, uh, uh, clothing with holes in it and be embarrassed about that. And it was still with her when she started using drugs when she became a teen, teenager. It was with her when she ran away from home as a, as a later teen. It was with her as the, the hardness of life that that comes to people in these, in these cycles, uh, came bit by bit. And I saw, um, at the, uh, end, this angel, um, with this woman in an alleyway when she was, uh, being attacked. And in, and she was on the ground, being, being attacked. And this angel was standing above her. And I saw just all this darkness encroaching in from every direction. And, um, this, this angel was fighting off this darkness, a sword in each hand. And I, I still, to to this day, have in, in no film or or historical account seen a, a fight that was more furious, more intense, more, more impassioned. But even despite that, as this angel, uh, fought this darkness off, I watched it encroach in, and it, it kind of blackened the vision. And when it kind of opened again, I just saw that the woman had, had died. And the vision then continued to the same angel being with a young man who is being born. And this man grew up in a much more pleasant life. His parents were with him. He had, was maybe wasn't wealthy, but had had, uh, enough the whole time. And I watched that child grow into the man who was standing in front of me. And, you know, when, when I, you know, I entered into that vision asking a logistical question of, are they reassigned? Is there, you know, you got your answer is R file. And what I got was again, a picture of the statement that's being made.

You know, I, I had a, somewhat like yourself, from what I've heard from some of your stories, I had a short tryst as an atheist, believe it or not. Only lasted a few weeks when I was a teenager. But how does a guy who sees angels and demons, one atheist? I'll share this story and happy I'm, I'll share this. I'll finish the story first, then I'm happy to dive into that. But I, um, I, because of that, I run into things like the logical problem of evil and different sort of, you know, things like that. And, you know, there's, there's questions that I've run into substantial answers for, and then some that remain mysterious. You know, that that atheists bring up. And, and maybe they always will be. But, um, I remember after, after seeing that vision and going in the, you know, back room at my work there to to cry a little bit. I, I was, even though this problem of evil, like why do bad things happen to people? Why does God allow? Of course, the question I get a lot is, if, if all these people have an angel with them, what are they doing when something bad is happening? And well, that woman still had the outcome that she had. And I can ask about God's sovereignty and, and whatever else in, in those, that situation. I can see that the attitude of that angel is the most desperate fight that, that I've ever seen in my entire life. And so, while it doesn't answer the question, at least it, at least it gives me some insight into God's character and posture towards these moments. And yes, it's a mystery of why can't he just snap his fingers and make that bad thing not happen. But at least showed me that his heart is, is passionately for the well-being of every person that's on this planet in a, in a way that is honest and true and real. And that, to me, was the, the answer, uh, of that logistical question. Is yes, there is, uh, logistics as to how heaven works and how the spirit realm works, but they all exist to serve God's character, his nature, and, and the revelation of it.

Right, right. I, I like even the way you've put that, uh, which is anytime we attempt to speak about God or like the mystery of the Trinity, you, the central mystery of the faith, right? You, you're ultimately probably not going to be successful or comprehensive. It's, if, if you, if you could be totally comprehensive, God would not be God. So it's not, you know, that's, that's a tricky thing to do. But when you say, you know, it's, it's about him, you know, it's just all about him. It's about, he is being, you know, so there's not, there's not a thing that is that is not about him. Al, it's right. It, uh, it all has to ultimately be there because God, you know, this is a point that is expounded on in philosophy by Plotinus, the Neoplatonist, and then by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas and many others, that, uh, getting back to your earlier point about, is it just good, the good force and the bad force fighting? You know, we don't live in a Manichaean reality. That's not really how it is. There is God, and God is good. And evil is the privation of good. Evil is not, you can't put evil and God on the same plane. It's just, there's God who is. And so to, to be is good. And then there's evil, which is the privation of good. And I, I can't, can't take it much further than that. I'm not as smart as Plotinus, and I'm certainly not smart enough to, uh, describe the, you know, interwoven threads of reality. But that seems like a pretty important point.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And, and you're recognizing that there, there is always more that we can understand about that, but we'll never, of course, be able to grasp all of it. Yeah. Was St. Thomas Aquinas had a mystical vision, uh, at the end of his life, which, uh, there's a famous story about it where God says to St. Thomas, um, you've written well of me, Thomas. What would you have? And he says, no, Dom, nothing. Nothing but you, Lord. Which is the right answer. It turns out that's not a Corvette. Is not the right answer. Yes. And, but, but, uh, Thomas Aquinas, when he had this mystical vision, taken up, you know, to the third heaven, uh, he, he says, everything I've written is as so much straw. This is one of the most intelligent people who's ever lived, the greatest theologian, probably ever in history. And he says, everything I've written is, is straw, basically. You know, which I kind of, which then, okay, I want to get to the atheism thing, but first, I want to get to the third heaven. Reminded me of this because you write about this in your book, and it's something that really clued me in that, to that, you, you are credible. And you're, even, even before I had met you, just reading the book. Sure. Yeah. You describe the, these three layers. You know, when we read something like the third heaven, St. Paul's taken up to the third heaven, most people read that and think, what? I don't know what that really means. But you, you have a sense of what it means. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, again, I always try to hold some of these definitions loosely. And, and to me, less, I don't want it to be a shaky kind of thing, really. It's an attempt to remain humble in in the approach to these things. But I, so I think of this as a, this is at least a way of making sense of the things that I've seen, which is that I kind of see it as three, three layers of reality, or three different realms that we have. The physical realm that we're all familiar with, and is, is, you know, determined by the laws, laws of physics as assigned by God. And then we have the, the, what people would call like the second heaven, or or some people call it this, the soul realm. And that's, to me, like where our intellect would would sit, our mind, will, and emotions. And, and to me, that's also where I typically would see like demonic things operating in that, in that on that level and in that space. And then the third heaven, to, to me, would be like the, the realm of the spirit. This is, this is things that operate by, by the way that, that God does, and, and his kingdom. And I see us as beings that are at all times existing in all three, three. That, that we are spirits that have a soul that live in a body. And while the, the exact metaphysics of that are still a great mystery to me, it, it helps kind of understand that the, there's different layers that operate by not different rules necessarily, but nested rules, if you, if you will.

Yeah. Yeah. That description is how I was taught to understand specifically the second heaven. You don't read about it quite as much, but that that's the, you know, there's, there's like, he, you know, the heavens like the Jupiter, whatever. And then, you know, there's the physical world. And then the second heaven is is intellectual. It's philosophy. It's, uh, and, and then the third heaven is is spiritual. And for us as hylomorphic beings, you know, of course, we're going to, we're going to be, uh, playing on multiple levels all the time. Because I'm, I'm a body. I'm not, now there are fashionable ideologies that say my body has nothing to do with who I am. But my body has a lot to do with who I am. Sure. You're, you are being angels and demons in with, with in images, you know, with bodies, even if it's not literally bodies, physical bodies. Uh, but just, I'm not just a body. I'm a mind. I have, I'm a mind. But my, I can think about, uh, justice in the abstract. You know, a rock or an iguana can't do that. Uh, but, but then there would seem to be more to it even than that. I don't think St. Paul is just a good philosopher. Mhm. You know, there would seem to be this third heaven. And so I, I think you're, uh, you're probably wise to say, look, I'm not a theologian. I leave this to the professionals. I'm just a guy with a gift to it. But, uh, it does seem that your description is pretty apt.

Yeah. It's, it's been fun in retrospect. I've always been a reader and like to still like to learn. And I've been a lifelong student of the Bible as well. And I, it's, I'm, I'm always cautious at anything that too, too immediately validates what my opinion is about what I see, because that, that can get you in bad loops. But, but at the same time, it's been helpful as I've read, read more Christian philosophers, as I've read more, more people who have, uh, smarter than me, that have delved into this, how, how it's, uh, how what I've experienced fits neatly into a lot of, of those understandings. And you said something, though, that piqued my interest, which is you said you see the demonic stuff disproportionately in that second heaven. What do you mean by that?

That it's interesting, because some people ask, like, if an angel and a demon are in the same space, you know, uh, won't they, wouldn't they, like, just fight? You know, like, like, at least a bigger cat and a dog kind of situation, you know? And interestingly, I often times when I am seeing, I, I describe it as kind of seeing in layers. And this is kind of just by exercising, almost with like, a kind of muscle memory, those week in, week out, day in, day out, practicing looking for this stuff. As in those 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 years of age, I noticed that I could kind of focus in on different layers of what was going on. I could intentionally look for bad things, and then I could look for good things. And while I could sometimes see them interacting, that was usually a specific, you know, if you will, literary message of like, oh, this is a, they're combating over this thing, or or over this person. U, most of the time, it was almost like they were in different planes, a little bit, if you want to think of it that way. That different channels, you know? Um, and so I could look for the good things, I could look for bad things, and I would, when I would focus on one, I would not see the other, and vice versa. Um, I noticed that I could focus on what was going on with an individual and see a set of things, good or bad, that's going on with them. I could, like, if we're in a church service or or any kind of kind of collective sort of environment, I could look at what was going on in a household, in, in a church service, in a more kind of, um, it's like the difference between, you know, seeing, oh, we're all here sitting watching a play. There's a certain, uh, postures that have to do with that. Or I can see that person who's in an argument with his, uh, his whoever is sitting next to you know, that's individual experience versus corporate experience. And then also, I could look further into, uh, regional, what's going on over this city, over this nation, over this area. Look for good things, look for bad things. And so I, I almost kind of built these little shelves in my mind of categorization, um, to to try to, you know, again, make sense of these things that I was seeing. And especially when I would look for demonic stuff, I would, I would notice that they would be very, Angelic stuff was always bringing something heavenly to a person. It's bringing Godly character, Godly equipment, if you will, things that are representative of that. So it was always bringing something from somewhere else here. Um, demonic stuff was always trying to take advantage of something that was going on there. There was a, a lot of people know someone like this. There was a guy at our church who had a kind of rolling problem with alcohol. And, you know, he'd get better, get worse, get better, get worse. And I, um, would see this cycle a lot. But the most kind of, um, impactful time I remember, he came, he actually showed up to church, um, uh, under the influence. And, and, you know, one of the pastors kind of brought him to the side, hey, this is not okay, you know? And I watched the most aggressive version of a pattern that I'd seen in this in-and-out thing. This, this demon with this big, uh, dirty bucket full of what looked kind of like black tar, just dumping it over over this, this person. And I immediately knew this is, this is shame that's just being dumped, dumped on this person. Um, and it, and it was just being dumped on him, being dumped on him. And then that, uh, the second he was done being confronted by that pastor and started to make his way out, I watched that demon immediately switch over and start whispering in his ear and seeing like the little, uh, bubbles and bottles and signs of things that were example-exemptive of that. Hey, why don't you go take a drink? You know, kind of thing. So the very thing that was bringing the destructive kind of shame was the very thing that was trying to tempt area.

Right here, I've heard it described as, you know, the devil whispers in your ear and says, that sin you want to commit, it's no big deal. It's really no big deal. It's not even seriously, come on. And then the minute you commit it, it says, you can't, you can never be forgiven. That's the worst. That's, that's so obviously unforgivable. You just, well, in for a penny, in for a pound. And I'll tell you, I, Catholic, we have sacramental confession. I'm a big proponent of sacramental confession. I've done it many times. And I get in line, and I still feel a sinking sense. Do I have to? Oh, I don't. Can I say this? Can I actually say the sins that I've committed? Uh, should I? Maybe I'll come back. I don't know. Should I re? And I think, and I know, I have many, many times experienced God's grace on the other side of it. I know, barring some impenitence or something like that, that God will forgive my sins, and I will walk out of the confessional feeling much, much better and being better, not only feeling better, but actually with my soul in a much better state because of the grace of God. And still standing online and say, how should I word this? Should I, ah, do I, did that? Oh, should I, I don't know. That's what's he going to think of me? What, it's anonymous. There's a, there's a veil. I don't, you know, I don't, I guess I, my voice, maybe I have to put on an accent or something. But that, that sense of shame is very, very powerful.

No, absolutely. And it's, it's again, as I said, these demonic stuff is always, it's, it's something that's already there, a little bit in our own mind, in our own head, and our own system. But so the demonic isn't so powerful that it can like create that stuff or generate it, but it tries to take advantage. It tries to take that way that you're upset about these things, can you believe they did that? You know, whatever it is, and try to spin it into an unhelpful direction. You know, and so they're always in that space, working in that again, soul sort of realm, in that mind, will, and emotion sort of space.

I'd like this image that you're bringing, which I think is accurate. I think it's actually just a, you know, perception of something that, you know, the angels bring you graces from God, they bring, you know, they bring you things from heaven. And the, the demons can't. All they can do is just mess around. All they can do is just jumble stuff up and exploit. And it's all they're just working with. They bring nothing to the table. Mhm. They just tear things up a little bit. Yeah. I often equate them to kind of like scavengers that they're, that they're looking. Even the Bible describes, you know, it's like a roaring lion looking for whom he may devour. The, the implication is that they can't just devour anybody. Yeah. You know, that it's, and if you, even study predatory behavior, they look for some, an animal that's separated, that's isolated, that's sick, that's, that's, could be taken advantage of in some other way. And of course, we all know this, that when I'm, when I'm feeling lonely, when I'm feeling sad, when I, when something bad happens, that's when those, those, you know, of course, we can generate our own negative thoughts, but, but when those kind of out of control, when it feels pulled, you know, one direction or the other, that's, that's they're looking for that moment of advantage. Yeah.

I think when, when do I sin? Well, often, actually. But when do I, when am I most liable to sin? It's when I'm tired, when I'm stressed, when I'm out of my regular habits and routine, when I'm, when I'm just like, you know, when, when would I be more likely to be injured if I ever were to engage in an athletic event, which is probably unlikely? But when it would be when I'm, when my muscles are exhausted. Mhm. When I'm, when my head's not on straight. When am I more likely to, you know, crash my car? It's if I'm really tired or drunk or something like that. Uh, it would seem to be the same thing in spiritual life. Absolutely. Yeah. That it's, you know, I, I, my third book, Indestructible, is about spiritual warfare. And it's really built around this idea that it's a kind of spiritual hygiene is often much more powerful and, and more powerful in, in the long term than just, I'm going to cast this out or I'm going to pray against this. It's not that you shouldn't do that, of course. But, but the actual, you know, place that I think most of us should put our attention is the, the better our spirit, spiritual hygiene, both in our fellowship and connection with other people, our connection to God, our, our connection with the purpose that we have in our, in our lives. That those things make us indestructible. That that's, that the enemy doesn't even have anything to bring to us. The best description I've heard of a confessional in my life is that it's the laundromat. Yeah. It's the laundromat for your soul. Don't you think of it? You know, if you just think of it in really practical ways, you're, even if you think, I, I didn't spill any coffee on my shirt this week, it's okay. But, you know, just oils and stuff, kind of, it just, you need to launder your clothes, you know, you have to. So all of this really, really good, uh, advice and really good insight. And somehow, you wind up an atheist. How does that happen?

Well, I, I definitely never made it all the way over there. I never became a practicing atheist, whatever, whatever that, not a devout atheist. But, you know, as I, as I grew older, you know, I had this period from kind of 12 to about 15 where I was learning a lot about more, a lot more about these things that I, that I saw. Um, but then also, you know, as my, as I got older, my parents were involved in church leadership, and I saw the, the good and the bad and the challenges that, that that come with that kind of, you know, pastor kid experience. And then also, I've always been, uh, hungry for knowledge and for learning and and reading and understanding the world as best as I can. And so some of it was just running into, um, ways that at least the churches that I was in, the way that they would treat scientific things, subjects that I enjoyed and liked studying, they would kind of treat them with with a scorn that started to not make sense to me. And, and then, uh, again, some of these problems that I would see that would be brought up, either by atheist arguments or whatever else, this, this problem of evil, problem of divine hiddenness.

What years would this have been? This would have been, uh, gosh, I guess that would have been around like, uh, oh man, to little brain fog here, uh, probably around 200, 2001, 2002, three, around there.

I asked because that's, it was around the same time I became an atheist. There were a number of reasons for that, um, mostly my own hubris as a punk little 13-year-old kid. But, uh, that was the time of the rise of the so-called new atheists. Yes. You know, and I definitely read a lot of, I, I read a lot of, um, Christopher Hitchens and, and Sam Harris and, and different people. And, and again, I, I wasn't so much immediately like compelled by, oh, this, this is all so right. But I, it was more like, this does ask questions that I'm asking. And when I ask these questions in the environment that I'm in, with people that I do still trust, I, I, they seem scared of the question. Yeah. And, and that was hard for me to reconcile. And so I went through this period where I said, okay, and of course, I started, I started to realize that, hey, this experience could be false. I could be just a high functioning schizophrenic. You know, I, I, I read, read about things like sleep paralysis. I'm like, oh, some of this is just a phenomenon that might just be explained by our physiology. And, you know, I'm kind of going, running through all this and start to be, become concerned about it, you know? And so I, I went through this period where I just said, I want to take everything that I believe and not throw it away, but set it on the table and decide what I want to pick up and what I don't. And in many ways, I, sorry for those who are, for those who are listening. Well, I think we should keep talking. There's a very strange squeaking. It might be some animal or something. And I will mention, uh, as we continue to chat, because I try, I like to ignore these things. Yeah. When I sat down with Father Reill, MH, we had more audio problems than I've ever experienced in a, in an interview. Yeah. And I, I asked, it was annoying me at first. We were stopping and going, okay, reset. More audio issues, sounds, and things. We were in a new location. But then I, at one point, he seemed nonplussed. I asked him, I said, does this happen to you often? And he doesn't miss a beat and he says, story of my life. All the time. And I said, okay, well, never mind. Let's keep rolling. We didn't have sound problems again. Wow. So you don't know. You never know. Are there purely, is it a purely natural explanation or something else? You know, I don't know. Doesn't, doesn't bother me too much. These things do happen both ways, sometimes I think. But so you, you have this question, which is, am I, am I a highly functioning schizophrenic? B. Yeah. And I, I approached it with a level head, you know, just as I, of course, grabbed a few books about schizophrenia to try to understand how it operated. And, and I was reasonable, like, there's a lot of symptoms that I could theoretically have. There's a lot of symptoms I clearly don't have, you know? And so, it didn't throw me off the cliff, but it brought this question up. And so, um, it wasn't really a singular moment. It was this kind of one by one selection of these different principles, these ideas that I had been given, and choosing to pick them up back, uh, again and again. You know, ironically, I, I say I became an atheist. I talked to God about it a lot, you know, during, during that time. And it really was, I, I see just a season of reconstruction where I, and the other part too, was I, I noticed that with all this stuff that I saw, there's plenty of times that there was stuff that I saw that I would say to someone, that's like involved knowledge that I couldn't have known otherwise. But, and so there was a certain verifiability in, in that. But I, I didn't like, uh, trusting in that. That's like, I, I don't, and I, I couldn't quite put my finger on why exactly. But it's just this, you know, if I, it's too easy for me to try to delude myself if I insist on looking for proofs of that what I'm doing is valid or right. And so I just kind of decided to set that entire, um, uh, idea again, again, on the table with everything else. But bit by bit, I would start to pick back, pick things back up. And, you know, I, I was raised to, you know, you shouldn't have sex before you get married. I'm like, okay, I, maybe I don't know why I'm not going to just go run out and do that real quick because that's, that's that's a thing. But let me, can't take it back exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Okay, well, great. Why? And again, I would just have a short vision where the Lord would show me something that would just mean that, oh, it's that sexuality is this thing that you can create a context for how you experience it, and it, things are of different quality depending on the context in which we experience them, and, and of different value based on the context we experience them. And so what kind of context do you want to create for sexuality? Do you want that to be something that you share with one person or something that's just of lower value that can go anywhere? And so I thought, okay, that one goes back on the table. And, you know, there, there was one experience that I had that was kind of the, the most transformative. And it really, it, I didn't walk away from it fully transformed or or knowing that this, this was now it, but it was the one that started the snowball of of doing. It's a little bit of a long story, so I, I apologize for that. But it's a long show. Don't worry. It works out. It works out. But I, uh, I was on a mission trip with our, with our youth group, and we were in, in Europe. And so, um, we were at this, uh, conference. Uh, at the end of it, youth pastor used to always kind of do something more relaxed or fun at the end of, of, because we were usually working pretty hard for the rest of it. Uh, and so was this big youth conference that was being held outside of London. And it was being held in this big, uh, cattle auction house, a double-decker stadium seating kind of situation. And there were so many kids coming to this thing that they had actually set up, uh, tents in the fields that were around, around the area there. And so we were staying in the tents, going to the conference slash concert. And, you know, flashed forward to the very last session, last night of the conference. And I'm sitting there, I'm in the upper back row. We're going to be flying out the next day. So we were pretty tired. And, you know, I've grown up in church. And so by the by the pentameter and rhythm of the way that the preacher is speaking, I can tell that he's, uh, kind of gearing up for a gospel message, invite people to receive Jesus for the first time. And, you know, I've been saved since I got saved at the post office when I was, uh, three years old, which is a separate story. Um, but I, um, and so I decided that the best thing for me to do was to try to take a quick nap. And so I, very spiritual during the gospel message. Yeah. You know, very spiritual decision. I'm also in the middle of this kind of tumult with my, with my faith at this point as well. So I, I put my feet up on the empty chair in front of me and lean back. And, uh, lean forward for no real particular reason, one more time, just look back down. And for the very first time in my life, I saw Jesus standing there. He was in the space between the stage and the chairs, and he was just pacing back and forth in that space. And he was pacing in such a way that his gaze was remaining fixed at a point somewhere at the back of the room. He would turn his head so that he could keep looking at that spot. And so I, I followed his line of sight to the place that he was looking. And I saw this girl, you know, 14, 15 years old. And there was this divider between where the stadium seating started and the rest of the chairs were. And she was leaning down with her head kind of rested against this divider. And immediately, the second I saw her, I knew that that's who Jesus was looking at. And I heard a voice in the back of my mind say, he sees no one but her. And the way that he was walking, it had this, this purposefulness, this intensity, this, this, it wasn't anxious, it wasn't nervous, but there was just this, this, um, purposefulness to the way that he was walking. And, and it was so, uh, strong that it felt like all my other senses were almost shutting down or growing dull, just so that more attention could be dedicated to watching the, the way that he was walking. And so it was, it was distantly that I heard the preacher begin to invite people up to the front to receive Jesus if they, they hadn't before. And, but as soon as I heard that, my eyes immediately snapped back to the girl. And I saw her, just for the briefest moment, she was laying there with her head against the divider. And then she just peeked up. And, and the second that she peeked up, I, I saw him move. But it didn't take him any time to get there. Jesus was pacing at the front, and then he was standing right there in front of her. And again, I'm just feeling the weight of the moment. My, my attention is being just drawn more deeply, being almost magnetically pulled towards towards this. And she had slumped her head back down in those intervening moments. And so one more time, as he was standing in front of her, she just raised her eyes for just the briefest moment. And as she raised her eyes the second time, I saw these chains appear all around her. They were covering her from the top of her neck to the bottom of her ankles. And they went off in four long strands. And at the end of each was a, was a demon. And they pulled and twisted the chains in such a way that caused her to slump her head back down and rest it on on this divider. But that didn't really matter because Jesus leaned forward and he, he kissed her on the forehead. And the moment that he kissed her on the forehead, every single link in the chain exploded like firecrackers. Just, I know, every single one of them. And the demons flew back from the loss of tension. And as the, as the last link in the chain broke, there was this bright flash of white light, so bright that it completely blinded me. I couldn't see anything. And after a few moments, my vision faded back in. But when it did, I, I couldn't see the stadium. I couldn't see the chairs. I looked down, and I couldn't even see my own body. I couldn't see myself. All I could see was Jesus and the girl. And she was, he was standing there with his arms open wide. And, you know, before she'd just been wearing some normal clothes, but in that moment, and, you know, it's something of a Christian cliché, but she was wearing these robes that were whiter than white, the whitest thing I've ever seen before or since. She, she leans forward and she hugs Jesus around the waist. And as soon as she, she does, I feel this sense of heaviness from above me. And so I, I, I look up and I see this hand coming down. And it's, it's big. Each finger is about as big around as a baseball bat. And it's coming down, index finger extended. And it touches me on the forehead. And as soon as it does, all of reality suddenly snaps back into place. I, the stadium, chairs, everything just pops into existence. I found myself standing. I'm not entirely sure when, when that happened, but the, the snap back to reality is so sudden that I, I kind of stumble backwards and fall into my chair. And I'm sitting there feeling overwhelmed and kind of get, get my wits about me, just in time to sit up to see the girl running up to the front to receive Jesus, um, even though she already had. Now, that was, that was obviously a very impactful thing to see. And I, I felt very shook by it in the moment. But what really changed me and, and changed the way that I was understanding these things that I saw in the spirit is, is what happened right afterwards. I, um, I was sitting there and I was again, feeling like a truck could run over me, you know, just like feeling, feeling just shaky and, and, uh, processing, almost feeling like the heat of, of having seen that radiate off of me. And all of a sudden, everyone around me stands up and starts walking. And I'm like, oh, I guess it ended at some point. And so I get up and I start walking. And, you know, I'm pretty good at getting lost in my own neighborhood in broad daylight, so I'm not entirely confident in my ability to make it to the correct tent that we're, that we're our group is staying in. And so I, you know, 3,000 kids leaving this thing all at once. And I, I look and I, I see one of the girls from my youth group. And kind of fix my gaze on her and think, if I, as long as I keep my eyes on her, I'm not going to get too terribly lost in this situation. So still feeling shaky, little, little unbalanced, I'm walking and have my eyes fixed on this girl. Now, this, this is a girl from my youth group. I, I know her, but we weren't super close friends or anything. But as I have my gaze fixed on her, I see everything there is to know about her life. I see every moment of joy, every moment of peace, every moment of fear, and every moment of pain. They flash through my mind, pop, pop, pop, one right after the other. Uh, not just as it, not just like a slideshow, but as if they were memories that, that I had had, as if they were memories about someone who, who I cared about very much, a sibling or a dear friend. And I, I saw all of these things. And then I saw her entire future. I saw every decision that she could possibly make. I saw all the decisions that she would actually make. I saw the, the perfect beautiful path that the Lord had laid before her. And I saw which parts of that she would choose and which parts of that she would not choose. And all of this, everything about her past, everything about her future, just swirled and congealed together into this overwhelming feeling of love. This, this, this feeling of love that was so massive, it was like an idea. It was like a, a sensation that was too big for my mind to, to hold. It felt like trying to grip a, a ball that's five sizes too big. You can kind of almost get it, but not quite. And it just got bigger and bigger and bigger until I, it was painful to look at her. So I had to turn away and look in a different direction. And next to me was another person, a person I never met before. But as I looked at them, I saw everything there was to know about their life. I saw every decision they'd ever made, every decision they would make. I saw all of it. And it all again swirled and congealed together into this overwhelming feeling of love that again became so overwhelming that it, it began to feel painful. So again, I turned and looked away. But as I mentioned, I'm in a very large crowd. And so I would look and see this person and saw everything there was to know about their life. Saw this person, saw everything that there was to know about their life. And I'm ping-ponging from person to person, unable to slow it down, unable to to to control it. The, the rate at which it's getting to the point that it's overwhelming, happening faster and faster and faster. It's like my eyes are magnets that keep sucking to person to person to person. And again, I, I, I describe this as a feeling, but it felt like more than that. I, I didn't, it didn't, it didn't make me want anything from the person, but it demanded to be expressed to them. I wanted to hug them. I wanted to kiss them. I wanted to pick them up in the air and spin them around. I wanted to give them words of encouragement. I wanted to grab them and scream in

Their face, how much God loved them. But anytime I thought of anything to do, it was so painfully and woefully inadequate in comparison to that love, that it felt almost insulting to do something so small in the face of something so big. And so, I, I finally got a bright idea and looked straight at the ground.

And so I'm shuffling through this crowd of 3,000 people, staring at my shoes, when, I kid you not, someone's foot kicks out in front of me. And I see everything there is to know about their life. I see every decision they've ever made. I see every decision they will make. I see the fullness of their potential and how far they're going to make it along that line of potential. But again, I fall completely and totally in love with this person before I even see their face.

And you know, somehow I found my way back to, to our campsite and just fell down face first in my pillow. And then, thank goodness, when I woke up the next day, whatever that was, was gone. Cuz honestly, I don't know how I would be able to function if, if I hadn't.

But that experience was the first of, of many that really, the way I like to describe it, I guess, is it set the compass for how I am to navigate these things that I'm seeing. You know, I can talk now out of the retrospect of numerous experience and talk about how important it is to try, only try to understand these things in within the context of who God is, to try to just, yeah, spiritually discern this or that. That's what, you know, witches and, and people like that do. But to know instead, uh, try to understand it by God's perspective, how he, how he sees it, how he wants us to understand it. And, you know, as it says in scripture, one of the most sublime and true pictures of his nature is love. And I experienced just a snapshot of it that day, just a small piece of it. And that was the, the inter of compass that I needed to try to make sense of these things that I saw.

And at least for me, that and experiences that I had afterwards became the answer to my, my atheistic conundrum, which was really what it came down to. It is, I didn't really care if what I was seeing was right or a construction of my mind. If it served that kind of goodness, that kind of love, then it couldn't be just something that I manufactured. It couldn't just be something, something else. This, this is something that is worth serving. And even if I might feel uncertain about this, or even though this question might still be hanging in my mind, if it serves that goodness, then I don't need to know all the details. I don't need to understand.

So you're not saying it's not a utilitarian calculation? Well, I don't know if it's true, but it's for a good purpose, so it's fine. No, you're saying something. No, no, it's the love is manifestly true, and it is serving the love, which is true. So I'm not going to worry about the doubts in my mind. Do I have that right? Yeah.

The best way I can describe it, it's funny because even to this day, I can get down that utilitarian way of thinking and, and ponder on it and think about it. And, you know, and but it, that the reality of that love is so profound that all of those ideas seem so small in comparison to it. That why, though I, I still have a value for that understanding, for those questions, for, for what answers might lie behind those, they are so secondary. It's too small a rank, the distance between this other thing. And I would gladly serve that mystery.

And all, St. John Henry Newman had a great line which has stuck with me, which is, "10,000 questions don't make one doubt." Of course, you have questions. Yeah. But that doesn't make one doubt. It sounds like that was your experience. Yeah, absolutely. That, that realizing that there, that to, to doubt the reality that was behind that was impossible. It's now to my advantage, I think. It's that, that sense of having questions, of, of not, I guess, you know, not really believing in myself, not believing in my own gift, but believing in God. Yeah. Yeah. And if this gift serves him, then it is a worthwhile venture. That, that has actually, to me, been of benefit because rather than trying to get my questions answered, I'm trying to understand this love more.

But you said something very true in that, which is you said you could see every choice that people could make. Mhm. And the whole path God had laid out for them, and how far they were going to make it down that path, basically. And how they were going to reject certain goods that God had laid out for them. How far to their potential they would they would, uh, make it. Yeah. But we all sin. And so we all, presumably, you know, get off the path. And we, maybe we can then conclude we don't live up to our full potential, or maybe not. Mhm. What do you? This is a troubling thing for me. What if I, what if I blew it? What if I just don't make it to my full potential?

Absolutely. It's, you know, I walked away from that experience, especially once the kind of heat of it cooled down and I started to kind of run through what, what the implications of some of that might be and, and how to understand that. I, and I still wrestle with the same questions of, you know, I don't pretend to be able to unravel the mystery of God's sovereignty versus Free Will. And, and, you know, there's again, many minds have wrestled with that one. But that somehow, in his sovereignty, that he could create and, and create the opportunity for an ideal, for an ideal that is up to the standard of his goodness, which of course is impossibly high. That he could create an, an absolutely golden and clear opportunity for that. That we could, in our sin, all fall short of that. Cuz I didn't see one that, that didn't, in that option. And yet, that the response to that, and the sum measurement of all that, was this overwhelming adoration, this overwhelming love that I felt. Almost as if I was seeing the whole of what a person is in that moment, and feeling how much God loved each and every one of those people.

And it's hard because, you know, we all know that while we were yet sinners, God loved us. You know, it's, it's true. Yet we still have this. And we, I still, of course, recommend everyone live as righteous a life as possible. Like, of course, it's to your own benefit and to the benefit of everyone around you. Knowing that every one of us, myself included, will fail. Yet, I guess the best way I can put it, and this is, you know, maybe just leaves it more open than it does close it, but that God knew what kind of thing he was creating when he made us. And though, and even though it is true that there is maybe a better version of each of our lives, it is, is also true that he made us this way and wanted us this way. And so, is it somehow also true that this is actually the best? And I, that's a mystery that I don't know how to unravel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, uh, Adam and Eve didn't have to sin. Yeah. They chose to sin. And so that was that, and they get kicked out of the garden. And sin and death pervade the world. But also Christians say on Easter, "Oh, happy fault, that for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer." Mhm. No, no sin, no need for the redemption. Yeah, I'll take it. It's a grand, I'll take it. Yeah. It's a grand mystery. But it's, you know, again, I don't, I don't pretend to know the answers. But I also know that if a book doesn't have a villain, doesn't have challenges to overcome, I know that it's a book that we tend to not be compelled by. Even though I can sit on the edge of this and want good things to happen to these characters in the book, cuz I'm like them, I will be dissatisfied with any story that I read that the conflict doesn't add up to something that is of substance, of meaning. And whether that's, you know, the, the nature of the wrestle that we have in that, that itself is pleasing to God, or it would maybe be more pleasing to him if we walked that line exactly right. I, all the best I can find is a truth that's in a great deal of tension in that space.

Now, you, you mentioned earlier that you, you can, kind of zoom in, zoom out. You can see, uh, spiritual things, uh, at a personal level, or at a regional level, or a national level, even. So you're looking around the country. Do you, do you see anything in particular? Not to put you too much on the spot. No, no, no. I don't mind sharing it. People have liked this to varying degrees, so. But and I'm happy to have, uh, your opinion on it, or anyone else's. But, you know, I do feel, and I've noticed this with other people who've seen the spirit that I've, I've met over the years, that there does tend to be, for lack of a better term, a natural kind of specialization. That that I'm always been more naturally drawn towards individuals, people, the, the, in structure of their lives, both as a person and also as when I'm seeing the spirit. I, I like to, that's where my eye will naturally be drawn is, is where are they at in their story right now? You know? And, um, that doesn't mean I can't be observed of what the larger trends are, the larger themes are. But I, I'm, I've spent less time with the Lord on those things. And so I do feel less like an expert. But I, the most impactful thing I've seen at least in those is in, in the middle of, uh, 2020, one of the more exciting years. Um, I, I said, I said, "Okay, you know, Lord, what's, what's going on?" You know? And I saw this, this vision. I, I walked outside and I looked up. And first, I saw this happening in, in the scale that I'm about to describe from a distance. And then I saw it yet again in my mind's eye from like an above view, so I could see the, the scale. And I saw these two great, what I would call principalities, which is, uh, demonic entities that are more operating on that, uh, uh, themes and trends kind of space, nationally, internationally, all that sort of thing. And I saw these two great principalities. And, uh, one of them had the word, um, uh, they both had crowns on their head. Both looked very similar. But one of them had the word, uh, "Democrat" written on the front of its crown. The other one had the word, uh, "Republican" written on the front of its crown. Now, as I looked, I saw that the one that had Republican written here had the word Democrat written on the back of its crown. And the other one with Democrat on the front of the crown had, had, uh, the opposite Republican written on the back of its crown. And the second I saw that, um, it was interesting. So initially, there was certain, a certain heaviness in the air in, uh, that year, as, as I'm sure we all felt in different capacities. And when I first saw that, I felt like a sense of dread, like, "Oh, this is like a big problem." But the moment I had that secondary vision where I could see it from above, I could kind of see it clearly. I could see that this kind of dualistic crown thing on its head. I immediately realized, like, "Oh, this is just a spirit of division." And a spirit of division, again, demons can't create stuff. They don't come up with stuff. They look at what's available and see what they can work with. And so, to me, that is not, not a, a condemnation of the Republican or Democratic party, or, or even an equivalence. It's not. No, it is just, this is what the enemy would try to do. How can we use this to create division? We can use these things and use, uh, try to position it in such a way that creates divisiveness, that creates disorder. And, you know, there, interestingly, this just kind of a speculation, I guess, but it, in some ways, uh, divisiveness is almost the opposite, or, or the counterfeit of holiness. Holiness is separation by, by righteousness, by God's nature, by, by his otherness. And that is a healthy separation, a righteous separation. Division, to me, would be a, a, and I, I actually would suggest that holiness creates a division that is, that is healthy, that creates goodness, that creates, uh, goodness on all levels. The wheat from the chaff, precisely. And, uh, the divisiveness, though, the spirit of division would be something that would look to cut and look to separate and look to create borders in only ways that would cause destruction, that would cause, that would cause harm, that would, that would. And, you know, you don't have to be a seer to know there was a lot of division going on in 2020. But a division to keep me away from an axe murderer is a good, healthy, and ordered division. A division to separate my head from my torso is an unhealthy division. Will not be conducive to my flourishing. Very true. Very true. Folks, the biggest deal of the year is here. 50% off your annual membership to Daily Wire Plus this Black Friday. 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Fast forwarding beyond 2020, any, uh, political insight, spiritual political insight from 2024? Maybe with a certain, uh, 45th and 47th president, world historic figure? Yeah. No. Yeah. I, I was, I was, as, uh, in some ways surprised as, as anyone on, on that night. And, you know, I've always lived my life, uh, you know, right or wrong, with a, a very high level of trust with God. As far as, you know, again, I, I recognize that there is action that's necessary, and, and there are things that we should stand for and respond to. But at the same time, I also know that there are many like themes and and structures that are outside my hands. And so I, um, in the same way as when I saw those, those two principalities in, in 2020, as we were coming to the election, I asked, "Lord, hey, what's, what's going on?" And I had a sense in that moment, and I didn't feel released to share it at all. So, actually, the first time I've talked about it, outside of, um, a few friends. But, um, I had this sense that that Trump was not going to win in, in 2020. And that the Lord was going to give, uh, the country a rest. And it made me think of, as I understand it, in some surgery, sometimes a surgery is sufficiently complicated that it has to be done in two sections. And it might be necessary that there is a surgery followed by some time of healing, and then another surgery. And, um, the only clear sense I got in that moment was that, uh, Trump was not, not going to win in, in that moment. Um, didn't feel released to say it publicly at that time, and held it until, until now. And, and I didn't even have any presumption about what that meant, that that Trump would again be elected later, or whatever else. I, I tend to view, in, whether it's right or wrong, again, in the same way that I view as the, the third heaven, the second heaven, and the first heaven is separate things. That while God is absolutely invested in our lives and, and the, and the flow, uh, within that, he's at the same time so far above it that all these things are very small. You know? And, it's, it's a dichotomy that's hard for our minds to wrestle with, because our level of care and our level of investment are often so tied together. That I can't imagine not, if me, not being worried about my child, I mean, I wouldn't care about them. But, but God is bigger than that. I have to imagine. And, and so, you know, one of the, and so with that, I always trust that God is doing something good with whoever is in place. And I, I'm a, a casual fan of history. When I look at the breadth of history and the kinds of leaders that have been in position, I can get back to that problem of of evil, or, or see moments of such profound divine intervention. I thought, "Wow, God is, is steering the boat of history." And so in the midst of that, the best that I know how to do is, while I haven't, um, personally seen, I haven't been in the same place that that Trump is ever, ever before. So I've never actually seen something one way or the other. You don't see it on TV? Yeah. So interestingly, I, I will see things being released by television. So if there is a new story that has a lot of fear to it, I'll see fear type things coming out of the television. But I wasn't able to watch your, your YouTube channel and see what your angel looked like before being in the same room as you, um, for whatever reason. It's an interesting limitation. But, but yeah, I, I need to be in the room to see, to see that. Um, I might have like a vision, the Lord might show me something in my mind's eye at different occasions. But typically, I need to be there and actually see it. And so I have always been of that, that view to, again, going back, going toward that idea of of being careful to not try to build a Tower of Babel. And so even within my presumptions, I, with with politics, and of course, I have the luxury of of being able to be at it, uh, be a certain distance from it. I try to say, "Okay, Lord, show me what's right and wrong. Show me what good and evil is. Show." And when I study scripture, when I study history, some of the people that God put, um, divine influence on, that he made leaders of, of Israel, of, of, of moments in history, were very human people, where were people with a number of flaws. But he, and often times maybe people that if I were over there controlling the universe, wouldn't have put in those positions. Yet, he is right in a way that I couldn't possibly be. And so I now, just as then, just as with all those visions, I, I don't try to use the things that I see as insight so that I can have more strategy about how to build a better thing. Instead, I say, "Okay, what does this tell me about who God is? What does it mean? What do, what does it mean? What does it, what does it say? What does it say about who he is?" Yeah, that's where I continue to invest. Yeah.

It's a good, it's a good degree of peace and proper resignation too, to recognize. St. Paul says, "The civil authority is there for your good, and your rulers are appointed for you by God." You think, "Well, what about bad rulers?" And the answer, notably from St. Thomas Aquinas, but from many other thinkers too, is, "Bad rulers are there, they're also appointed by God to punish you, often, you, or for some some purpose of his in the grand scheme of things." Mhm. But this, you know, that's, uh, right there in the scripture, you know, that, that your rulers are. So you think, "Okay, I, I pray that things go well." But it's a good, uh, a good little aphorism from Padre Pio that sticks with me: "Pray, hope, and don't worry." And I always try to do my best to stay in my lane. I'm not a political analyst. I'm not a theologian. But I do want to make sure that when I'm, I want to make sure to know that there is this great temptation that happened at the very fact, the first temptation of, I, the knowledge, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I want to decide what's right and wrong for myself. I want to create my own justice. Uh, this is echoed later in scripture with, with the Tower of Babel. I want to build my own way to heaven. You know, it's exemplified again thematically throughout scripture with the, the both the literal Babylon and the metaphorical Babylon. This, I want to create my own empire of justice. And you see it recurring throughout history. And you see it especially today, which is people saying that that traditional morality, forget about that. That's morality is just a weird quirk of our natural and idiotic evolution, totally senseless. And we can do whatever we wish. We can either become the Ubermensch, or we can, uh, become the social engineers to get rid of Homo sapiens and create Homos. And we're going to, we're going to rebuild humanity. It's going to be so great. And you get people who would call them elves on the right, who maybe would say the former, people who are pretty emphatically on the left, who would say the latter. But, it's all kind of the same nonsense. It's all trying to build its own Tower of Babel, trying to build its own kind of justice. I, there's this old, as I said, I was like reading, there's this old, uh, Ursula K. Le Guin short story called "The Lathe of Heaven." And in it, through, you know, science fiction means, there's a psychologist who finds this person who's able to change how the world is with his dreams. And he tries to use that through, through suggestions for his dreams and things like that to make the world a better place. And in the tradition of science fiction, every iteration, uh, starts to remove the humanity, starts to remove the beauty, starts to remove the good. And to me, that was another example of this idea of that temptation to try to build my own kind of righteousness. And doing that, I will ultimately create destruction. Because God's kingdom does not work by the works, by its own set of rules. And it's more our job to be adherent to those than it is for us to just pick up the tools and make our own kind of right. Yeah.

A friend of mine described the, the notion of the metaverse, the idea that we're all going to like actually plug into the Matrix. And he said, "Well, the real question of the metaverse is, do you want to live in a world created by God, or a world created by Mark Zuckerberg?" Who do you think did a better job? Not a, not a hard choice for me. Right.

So you've been at this a while. You've been seeing these things for a while. You've been seeing the course of people's lives in these flashes of, of, uh, spiritual insight. So then what, what about you? What's, what's the, when you look down at your own feet, did you get a vision or no? So, interestingly, I, I've definitely had moments like that. But more often than not, I actually don't see things that relate directly to me spiritually. Um, multiple reasons. I, I've thought of that is that we are, of course, designed to need other people. You know? And to need insights that we can't, uh, get on our own. Uh, actually, had, have been having a conversation with the Lord the last couple of years of, I, as a person, have not always been the most in tune with my own emotions or my own feelings. And I thought, "Well, maybe there's work that needs to be done there to be able to, uh, self-reflect a bit." But one thing that I do see quite regularly, you know, going from national level down to, uh, the domestic, um, I, you know, I can see in my day-to-day life the effect that I have on my environment. And so, I, I have five kids and, and a wife of 16 years now. And I, I like telling this story because it makes me look bad. But I, there was this one particular day where, um, we were, uh, in an an elevated discussion, my, my wife and I. And, you know, good euphemism, elevated discussion. Yes. And it was one of those moments where, and I think anyone who's been married or in any kind of relationship, really, has had these moments where you, something rises to your mind to say, and you know, this is not the thing to say. Um, you say it. And, and it was nothing, it was nothing horrible, of course, but it was not the right thing to say. And it was a moment of weakness. And I just let that fly out of my mouth, you know? And it wasn't, wasn't horrible, wasn't demeaning, but it wasn't kind either. And I, I watched, um, as that word, as those words left my mouth like a wind and hit my wife on the face and left a small cut, just on her, her upper cheek, as if you had taken a razor and just, just did a quick little nick right there. And a little, little drop of blood came down from from that spot. And so immediately, of course, I'm like, "I'm sorry, I should not have said that." And she, you know, my wife's an easygoing person, so she's like, "Ah, it's fine, no big deal." And know, like I said, "No, no, no, no, I should not have said that. That was not kind. I am sorry." And I watched as that little cut just healed from one end to the other. And even the drop of blood ran back up and went into the wound and closed completely. And so, even I, again, I'm very much a human being, so I'm not aware of that, uh, 24/7 at all times, or in the heat of the moment if I'm upset or or sad or whatever else. I don't always remind myself to look for stuff spiritually, or, uh, even necessarily trust myself to interpret it correctly, or, or not to my own advantage in, in, in a given moment. But I do try to be in tune with that awareness of how, or rather, that's one of the things I've noticed that I've been able to be more aware of is, how do my actions and the way that I carry myself and what I believe affect my environment, my family, my, my relationships? Yeah. It's basically all one really can do. You know, there's this, I, I've mentioned him before on different shows, but he really comes to mind. Guy who lived a rough life as a young man, and now he wears an "I Love Jesus" hat and goes to mass every day. He's in the Bronx. And, and he, "I keep it simple, buddy boy. I do my best. God does the rest. I keep it simple." I think that's good advice. Mhm. You're a lot less likely to get tripped up that way. Yeah. Absolutely. Like the book, "The Veil." Go get the book. Like, a real pleasure. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you very much.