Transcription
A podcast and just say one second. Three, two, one. Hello, Ian Palmquist.
Hey, Chris. Thank you for joining me today on our little oral history project fun, uh, segment. Um, I'm just going to start by saying that the, when I was doing the, um, uh, background for this, this is not the first oral history you have done, my friend.
Oh, I think you've done possibly several, but I found one from 2001.
Oh, wow. No way. 25 years ago. We'll get to that. I don't want to spoiler, but I'm just getting there. So, for our conversation today, um, uh, maybe I'll just ask you to introduce yourself, uh, and then I'll do me and then we'll get into some questions. So, I'm going to start with uh with the most fascinating part of the questions I got to in my research on you after knowing you for a while. Maybe maybe that'll be the second question is where do you remember where we met? But why don't you start by introducing yourself?
Um, sure. Um, hey, so I'm Ian Pquist. Um, he him. Uh I'm currently retired but spent my career working on LGBTQ plus rights and particularly the state-based movement uh first in North Carolina and then uh supporting state-based groups nationwide.
And so then my question was where did we meet? Do you I mean I I've got a rough idea. It's not any later than 2001. I was trying to remember um which federation meeting would have been the first time we connected.
It might have been Miami. It might have been
I was thinking I was thinking it was Miami Beach. Yeah.
Yes. Um, that was an eventful meeting for a lot of many. Did you go down to the ocean that night?
I did. I did.
Oh, okay. Well, then um All right. Um, we'll just we're keeping this PG, so we'll I'll keep moving. The Okay, so that was the What year was that? Is that 01?
It might have been 01. Um,
it was that pink hotel. What was that hotel? The
I don't know. We were right on the beach.
Yes. Um, Naen and Stratton were hosting us from Equality Florida.
Yes, these are all correct. Um, my um that matches with my memory. Um, we'll we can we can follow up as we go. Uh, my name is Chris Pepf. My pronouns are they, them, and so it's 2026, so we're looking at 25 years that you and I have a little bit to cover here today. And um and I was hoping to hit some of the high parts and some of the lessons and it doesn't need to be the only conversation we have, but but um I was interested in really getting and being quiet for change and getting your thoughts on I don't know. I think it's like the unexpected things that that you've learned over that 25 years and could be before that. Um, does that sound reasonable?
Sure.
So, let's start by me sharing something. I'm going to share my screen for a second. And one second there. We What's going on cancel? Just shrink that so I don't Okay, so Ian Pomquist, I have a question for you. Are you ready?
Yes.
Ian Pomquist, what is this? So, we're going to look down here and I'm gonna uh I can make it bigger. One second. Uh we have free This is the uh News and Observer March 4th, 1994.
Yes, indeed.
This is This is an article and I'm just going to read the first paragraph and it reads uh Raleigh. First, two students at Enllo High School were suspended after posting anti-gay messages on school walls. Then, six others, who will famously be known as the Enlo 6, were ordered suspended for raising to the defense of gays with their own leaflet a parody of the first. And that parody thing is really important if you read the whole article because it talks about it. uh parody of the first that urged tolerance. Uh now dozens of students at the sprawling East Raleigh magnet uh school are wearing black armbands and debating whether students uh should be able to speak their minds or heed school rules that some say limit their free speech. Ian Palmquist, who were the Enlo 6 and what can you tell us?
Yeah. So th this is really where I got my start as an activist um almost accidentally. Um uh what happened uh and this is really bound up with my own coming out story. Um I had come out to a friend on the phone for the first time one night. Um and literally the next day by coincidence these anti-gay posters went up all over our school. Um and those they were called a call to arms. Um it said they're [ __ ] and dikes in our midst. Um, it was pretty pretty ugly stuff.
And they were posted in the toilets. Is that what they did?
Yeah, they posted them um a few places around school. Um, and uh, you know, this was a gifted and talented like performing arts high school. Um, that was not what my friends and I expected of our school. Um uh although it certainly was not a place where there were a lot of folks who were out either in 1994. Um uh but my friend Brendan was out. Um and Brendan and five others of us decided we were going to do a response. Um and so we parodyied the poster. Um we said there were bigots and morons in our midst. Um
the leaflet you created like I've done my homework. You did a three-page leaflet or some page leaflet.
Yeah, we didn't do posters because that would be defacing school property.
Um we were trying to trying to stay within the rules. Um and we handed these um flyers out which had just little short essays about tolerance and we included our names on it. um
200 students
that were these you're when you're going to be suspend or threatened to be suspended it was for handing out a hundred of these.
Yes, exactly. At a school of about 2,000 people um and we um we were
How old How old are you when this is happening?
Uh I'm uh just turning I've just turned 16 I think around this time. So, um, fairly young. Um, but, uh, we really just thought we'd done our good deed for the day. Um, and didn't expect anything more to come of it. Um, my friend Brendan came out to the entire school in this, um, piece that we handed out. Um, I wasn't even out to everyone in of the six of us, uh, at the time we were doing this. Um and uh and then we got suspended. Um and it turned into a monthslong battle with the school system. Um the ACLU got involved. Um and because there was only one palmquist in the Raleigh phone book, uh when the newspaper found out about it, um I sort of inadvertently became a spokesperson for gay rights while I was out to a total of one person. Um,
let's pause there for just one second because I just want the world to see what uh just turned 16 Ian Pomquist had to say.
Oh lord.
Here it is. It just says uh let's see. Uh I just read it. Um here we go. Um, for their part, the students facing suspension say they felt compelled to rebut the message urging prejudice against gays. Quote, "While we feel those people have a right to express our opinions, we feel we have a right to respond to that," said Ian Palmquist, 16, one of the six uh to sign the three-page leaflet. And then Ian goes on to say, "We feel the administration has infringed on our First Amendment right to free speech." And uh what what do you what do you think of 16-year-old Ian Palmquist today?
Um you know, I am really uh proud of 16-year-old Ian Palmquist and also kind of shocked that I was as bold as I was. Um I was kind of a shy kid. I kept to myself and my group of friends. Um but uh but this felt like something to stand up for. Um and um you know and we were a nerdy group of kids, let me tell you. um you know, we got a three-day suspension and rather than thinking, okay, we get three days off, um I started work that that night, but the other five went over to the library at NC State University and we're researching student free speech rights. Um, so the next morning we're going in to talk to the vice principal and he's arguing for our suspensions and we're quoting Fujima versus Chicago and Tinker versus De Moine. Um, and you can see the blood draining out of his face like these kids are not going to go easily.
What was the were things? So now what the end of the story is that the school or at least part of the the part about being suspended is the suspension is going to be overturned by the board of school board. Is that what happened?
By the school board. Yeah.
And what was your life like after it was overturned?
Um you know it's uh it's interesting. I think I had um paved the road for my own coming out really well um since my family had been talking about gay rights and student free speech at dinner um pretty frequently. Um I wasn't out to them during this process. Um uh but when I came out a few months later, they certainly were uh pretty well prepared. Um and in some ways uh I think my senior year, the school really wasn't going to mess with me. Um, so you know, I never got asked for a hall pass or anything after that point.
Well, you were the ACLU on speed dial, so you know.
Exactly. And one of the other
one of the other upshots of this is that um friends of ours who published an underground literary um paper at the school um actually did challenge the school board on the rules they used to suspend us. Um, and we're able to get rid of the rule that um that said that the principal had the right to review publications handed out on campus.
That's fantastic. So, legacy impacts and and and I also read as part of the oral history uh that's been done. I think there were there are 200 students now in the GSA at Enlow High School or at least there were at the time that that was, you know, were at the time. Yeah. Um so it went from, you know, just Brendan being out um his senior year uh to a school that had a really active GSA and um was a relatively welcoming place um in the course of a few years.
That's an incredible story. the and I think over the course of our 25 years of knowing each other I had heard echoes of Ian's because you're like you're Ian Palmquist. So you're in my universe most famous for being the youngest executive director in the history of the Equality Federation as executive director of Equality North Carolina. youngest executive director uh in the history of the movement to run a statewide organization. But when you were just turned like 15 and a extra few months, right? So 16, you were already doing this. So it must have been, you know, to be the youngest executive director of a statewide group, you'd already been doing this for how long? What was it? 10 years by that point?
Um gosh, probably probably something like this. Um I certainly did not consider it a career path when I was in high school. Um uh and you know really uh when I went to Carolina for undergrad uh you know I thought I wanted to be an English professor. Um but I surprise surprise got involved in student organizing and it kind of set me on this path.
Is there any last note you want to make about the Enllo experience and sort of the way that it helped shape your not just your contribution but the lens that you brought because I can see a southern gentleman even there I want people to respect me I respect their opinions but I'm allowed to have an opinion too like this Ian Pquist
sounds a lot like you today like it's really interesting. Is there any do you think it was formative or is there other legacy things we should note?
Um, I think uh I mean definitely a formative experience and I think um a big part of that was you know as a young gay kid having uh my community that I care about really rally around me um and and around the other five of us which I should note included my brother who was a freshman.
That's right. Your younger brother.
My younger brother um who uh jumped in the deep end with us. Um and uh yeah I think uh it was a formative experience um and uh having the support of my friends, my parents um really gave me the confidence to um to continue doing this kind of work.
I I just also want to note I didn't sort of say this at the start, right? But this is Enllo High School in RAW. I said Raleigh, but I didn't say North Carolina, I don't think. So, you know, as we're talking about North Carolina in 1994, you know, as a 16-year-old, you know, working in, you know, even in a in a even in a gifted school. Um, obviously there were there was push back and the students had done the what was it call to arms or whatever they called it,
right? Um, is there is the leaflet still exist? Do you have a copy somewhere?
I do have a copy somewhere. Yeah, for sure.
I looked for it. I couldn't find it. You should scan it and send it to me and I'll put it in the thing with this podcast.
Okay, I will do that.
Just do uh just do three screenshots.
Yeah. And the uh the other thing I think just to remember is you know 1994 in North Carolina um Raleigh is a relatively progressive place. A lot of PhDs um for the South, but it was still very much the South. Um and it was a time when there was literally one GSA at a high school in the entire state. Um, so, uh, we didn't realize we were, um, ahead of the curve in what we were doing. Um, it just felt like the right thing to do to stand up for ourselves and our friends. Uh, but, uh, it really made a splash.
And so, when you graduate from Enllo, can you walk me through the next couple steps? You said, "Where do you go to college?" And then you're doing going to be an English professor, but that changes course.
Yeah. So, I went to University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Um, and you know, I was going for academic reasons, but um really fortunate that it's uh has a history as one of the top activist schools in the country as well. Um, so I, uh, had the opportunity to be a part of an activist culture, um, that I think really prepared me for my career in a lot of ways. Um, I got involved with the, um, LGBT student group, um, which was called Belad at the time.
Right. Changed the name.
It's an allies for diversity. Later became Que. Um, and then later became many other things after I left. There there's a book in the original first names I remember.
So So you go to uh Chapel Hill in what year? Is it 90?
95. Yeah.
Okay. So I go to uh James Madison just a couple what is it? 3 hours north in Harrisonenberg, Virginia on 85 or 81. And um I'm there in 96 and our group was on campus was called Harmony and you know we there was this dance stance that we all played to stay safe.
Yeah.
Especially in in in the south like it was a different conversation.
Yeah. Absolutely. Um and um you know I think one of the things that was formative for me at Carolina um was you know I got trained in direct action. Um the US student association was doing uh trainings um on campuses. Um and so I got to be in there, you know, with the environmentalists, with the black student movement um with uh the folks who are fighting sweat shops. um which was a big issue at the time. UNCC logo apparel was being made in sweat shops in Southeast Asia. Um and uh and really learning how to be strategic, how to pick a target, um how to organize people um and uh and it served me well. Um even though my career hasn't been direct actionoriented as much um it's been much more on the advocacy side of things. um those skills um absolutely uh kind of informed my approach to the work.
I mean I could pause right here and go to the Froot Loop story which is in uh my latest book tolerable inequality which is a section on you Naen Frank and Ervishy and cuz I I was thinking about the Froot Loops when I was reading about your high school like the
Oh, that's so funny. you know, again, there's it's a statesman kind of approach to it. It's reachable. It's direct. It makes the point, but it all and it pushes back, but it also um
it's not mean like do you want to explain that the Froot Loop story just very quickly? I'm not trying I know we're going to jump around a little bit, but but I just you're mentioning direct action. I think it's kind of interesting.
Yeah. We had a um this was when I was at Equality North Carolina, the statewide LGBTQ advocacy organization, and we had a Republican state legislator. Um I'm trying to remember even exactly what issue was coming up at that moment. Um but he uh called people who were supporting LGBT rights legislative Froot Loops. Um and we decided just to have fun with it. We uh invited people across the state to send messages um to this legislator um objecting to um his characterization. Um, and we bought little boxes of of Froot Loop cereal. Um, and had a big press conference with just stacks and stacks of Froot Loops surrounding our our dumpy little conference room at Equality North Carolina. Um, and took them in a wagon through downtown Raleigh over to the legislative building to deliver them to this legislator. Um, and it was a, you know, obviously a media stunt. Um uh but it was a chance to push back in a really uh fun way um against someone who had been you know working against our community.
I I just love the the touch like the touch points with the community. it moves the it was again your you know social change doesn't often make a lot of change sometimes the soft touch is what helps bring the change not just the message but the way that it's done and I think that's one of the great contributions that you've done at least to me I mean I'm um sometimes can have hard edges and your your soft edges are just really on point. So then can I ask how you made the move uh post I mean I I know we're if you want to touch on the university I and the switch from be glad then I think obviously yes. Um I'm just wondering uh how you get to equality North Carolina.
Yeah sure. Um I got there through the student organizing work at Carolina actually. Um there was in 1999 um an event across the country called Equality Begins at Home. Um which was um in some ways a counter to the uh Millennium March on Washington. Um with the idea that there should be a week of action in all 50 states um not just another March on Washington that frankly wasn't going to get a lot of attention um in the bigger picture. Um, and that was a a really significant week across the country. It was the first time a lot of state groups had their um first lobby days.
That was a task force ran that, didn't they? Wasn't that an Irvy project originally?
Yeah, the task force um and the predecessor of Equality Federation, uh the Federation of Statewide LGBTQ political advocacy organizations or the name was terrible. Um uh and uh the MK Cullen was the executive director here in North Carolina and she reached out to me and um other student groups around the state. Uh we actually had 40 events happen across North Carolina that week. Um and so that's how I got to know MK. Um, and after I graduated, she
to quit my $11 per student stores.
Sorry. Go ahead.
No, I was just saying 40 events in North Carolina alone.
40 events in North Carolina in 1999. Yeah. Um, which was really amazing. Um, I think the internet's glitching a little bit. Um, but yeah, so that's how I got to know MK and she reached out after I graduated and convinced me to quit my $11 an hour student stores job, um, which was full-time for a half-time $7 an hour, um, admin job at Equality North Carolina. Um, which my parents thought was a really great idea, as you can imagine. Um, but that got me started. Um and uh as it happened um MK uh moved on to a job at uh Glisten National um a few months later. And just to give you an idea of how small and unstable the state-based movement was at this time they asked me fresh out of college to be the interim ED um for four or five months while they went ran a search to find the next person. Um, so I was sort of thrown in very quickly um to trying to, you know, keep an organization running. Um, and I look back at that now and just think how insane that was. Um, and if I had any idea of all the things I should have been worried about at the time, I probably would have lost my mind. But, uh, but somehow we made it through. Um, and uh, and I learned a ton in the process.
How old were you when you became interim ED of Equality North Carolina?
Like 21 or something like that?
Yep. So, anyone listening who's older than 21, you're behind. You you're sorry, you're b you're five years behind uh Ian's leadership in North Carolina. Um, one second. Apologies. I'm fighting a cold. The um, what do you have an overall lens as you look back on statewide organizing as we sort of dip our toes into your start at Equality North Carolina? Is there a as you stop right now and then look back at, you know, starting when you were 21, is there is there something that strikes you as really important that people should take away from how it's evolved or what it is, you know, and how it's different from federal or other kind of organizing?
Um, that's a great question. I mean I think uh you know state organizing there's an eb and flow between when the movement is really happening you know federally and when it's happening at the state level. Um but the reality is the folks who are close to the ground um are closest to the action most of the time. And um that was true when the state organizations were tiny little oneperson uh organizations or all volunteer organizations back when I first got involved in the late 90s early 2000s. Um and that's true now when there's you know $5 million a year state organizations um in some some states. Um I think uh what the movement has been able to accomplish at the state level um with relatively few resources most of the time um is really remarkable. Whether that's stopping bad things um which in the south sometimes is the best you could do um or you know really passing and advancing things um legislatively as well as just shifting the climate in our communities um you know there's a lot of organizations beyond the advocacy world that that play a part in that too um but um I feel like um you know what's happening in national media really matters um But people seeing change happening in their own communities is what really mobilizes people and gets people involved.
And and is there something about the South that in in organizing in the South and the LGBT movement in the South that that is different that you know people might not get um from looking at the national picture or looking at the federal government?
Yeah, I mean I think it's easy for people in other parts of the country um to just write the South off entirely. Um and I think that's a huge mistake. Um you know, we've been able to make some real progress um in difficult circumstances in the South um and able to hold back a lot of bad things um and change hearts and minds. um you know when we finally won marriage equality in the courts um we didn't have majority support in the south but um the conversation had shifted so much that there was never the kind of backlash um and skyfalling narrative that everybody was worried about and I think that's because folks in communities had been doing that work for so many years to get us from u you know single double digits support um you know up closer and closer to a majority.
I was trying to find I was doing when I was doing my research I I couldn't find put my finger on it. The what was the first state uh in the south to pass pro-LGBT legislation? I was looking for it and I couldn't uh like statewide stuff. Would you remember where that was?
Yeah, I think you do remember where that was.
I I can't It's just not quite coming to me.
Yeah, the the first time that we were able to get um sexual orientation and gender identity into a state law in the South um was in North Carolina when we passed the School Violence Prevention Act, which was anti-bullying legislation. And there certainly had been other um other legislation that had passed. I think Georgia had passed um some hate crimes protections um on sexual orientation. Um, uh but the first time getting both sexual orientation and gender identity was in North Carolina in uh 2009.
if you put um some of these questions into chat GBT one of the and you put your name into chat GBT Ian uh one of the things that comes up was Ian fought for gender identity to be included in the conversation that there was push back and there were you know and that sort of especially in that period of time because what year is that is that I want to say ' 09 but I could
yeah that was uh 2009 when we were uh working on on the School Violence Prevention Act
because including gender identity in statewide or god forbid federal legislation was so difficult a conversation to navigate in some ways. What was that like? Like making sure that se it wasn't a sexuality only conversation but making sure it was gender identity. What was that like?
Yeah, I mean I there there's a couple things that come to mind. There's a North Carolina track to that and then there's a broader movement track to that. U but that tension over transincclusion was I think one of the defining controversies of the late 90s and early 2000s um across the movement. Um, and and Chris, I know you remember well, uh, when Barney Frank pulled, uh, gender identity out of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, um, and Human Rights Campaign went along with that at the time, I want to say 2007. um and uh the uproar within the community um uh and I think that that was a defining move movement moment um for the state-based movement um when unanimously the state equality organizations came together um were instrumental in creating the United Coalition and said absolutely not we cannot leave gender identity out of non-discrimination protections at the state or the federal level.
And I think it's interesting because I I I think to our younger community members, they see the conversation about, you know, um LGB without the T as a as a newer conversation and they're fighting back against it and they're wonderful and I love them. My only point is we've been doing this for 20 years and and the people at Stonewall were doing it 20 years before that. like it's been a long ongoing thing. I think I guess I just want to put a pin in the point that you know the work that you've done and the leadership that you've shown in the legislation you passed as inclusive of gender identity it it can happen and and it's this is part of the the again the legacy of of that contribution.
Thank you. Yeah. And um I I think it was a struggle in North Carolina too. Um uh and and I think uh the struggle was not from a lack of desire on LGBT people to have protections for trans folks. Um it was a misguided sense of um practicality and pragmatism. um when you know Equality North Carolina had already added gender identity to its mission when I came on staff in 1999. Um and uh when I became a co-executive director in 2003 um one of the things I really pushed on in the interview process was that I wanted an organizational commitment that we would not support non-inclusive legislation. Um, and the board agreed. Um, what I didn't realize, and this is one of my big leadership lessons, was I hadn't really done the work to get the hearts and minds on board. Um, I got the policy in place. Um, but I hadn't gotten the level of support that when push came to shove, they'd stay by that. Um, and we actually had a very well-intentioned uh legislator, um, kind of a good old boy Democrat from down east North Carolina. Um, an unusual ally um, who introduced a piece of legislation that was not inclusive without talking to us. Um, and I thought, all right, we're ready to go. We've got our position. Um, and I had folks on the board really push back and say, you know, this bill is not moving anyway. We've got a chance to build an ally here. Um, you know, we should endorse this bill. Um, and, uh, I was devastated. I felt like the rug was pulled out from under me. Um, I felt like the commitments that I'd been making in the trans community, um, were, uh, were being thrown out. Um, and what I actually did, um, after considering quitting, um, uh, decided to stick it out and, uh, I scheduled a meeting between my entire board and five trans advocates, um, who were deeply, deeply angry at the organization. um and really did the work of getting getting the folks on the board to understand the impact um that that would have. Um so long term, you know, Equality North Carolina never made that mistake again. And when we were working on safe schools legislation, we were able to say from the beginning that that was a hard line for us.
It's so tricky. And I just want to put a bit of context in here because I think there's also, you know, I'm doing at this at at sort of not parallel time. So, a couple years earlier than that
here.
Oh, it's all right if I freeze as long as you can hear me.
But I was just going to say that during I think it'll catch back up. But during don't ask don't tell um you know I'm doing the uh you know legislation to introduce don't ask don't tell. So we had a giant meeting in DC and I pulled everyone together all the translators. Oh you have popped off. So we are going to pause and bring Ian back. Uh and I'll be right back.