Transcription
The same line of questioning. Then you were trying to ask him how is it that he comes to know something or know that his Catholic church is true? Because let me ask you this. I maybe we should start it this way. Do do you believe that Catholics are saved? Meaning are they in Christ?
>> We're not allowed. We don't believe their church is valid. We don't believe their sacraments are valid. We are not allowed to make salvific statement about anybody.
>> Well, not [clears throat] anybody personally, but you just made, you know, quite that's a pretty tall order there. You said if their sacrifice are not valid,
>> how can they enter heaven?
>> God can uh by mysterious ways unite people to the body of church. I don't make that sort of judgment. So then what what I'm saying is your position would be if you can't make that judgment and I'm not trying to be I'm trying to do is challenge you just the way you've challenged others or me or even Sam
>> is if you're not trying to make that judgment then why would you be so concerned about him following a different sacramental system that you say is basically
>> we're tell we're we here to tell people to become orthodox it is the right way that we know
>> okay but if you're if you're in the right way but you don't know his is the wrong way, then where's your authority?
>> I know he's he has the wrong way.
>> So his way is not the right way, but you can't say it's right it's wrong enough to go to hell.
>> No, that's well that's that's just a category error. So somebody having the right church the right way has nothing to do with whether I can make the judgment of them going to hell or not.
>> Wait a minute. How is that a category error? So what I'm saying is
>> I just explained
>> Well, that's this is what I'm asking, bro. I'm a dumb Mexican, so you got to slow down for me. So you said it's a category error to tell somebody or ask them whether what church they go to. You've identified they go to the Catholic church and you can certainly say your sacraments are not valid.
>> Mhm.
>> What you can't say is that that that nonvalid sacramental process if you follow till you die you're necessarily going to hell if you do that.
>> It doesn't make sense to me.
>> Yeah. Because the one the soul belongs to God. It doesn't belong to anyone. We're not going to make any sort of judgment on people's souls.
>> Right. But you're making Okay, let me let me break that. Can you make a judgment? Are are Muslims saved? They reject Christ. They say,
>> "Go ahead."
>> Most likely. No.
>> Oh, so now we got we got another word we have likely.
>> That's not a By the way, that was not a definite statement.
>> All right, fair enough. How about Satanist? Are they saved?
>> I don't know. They're outside of the church.
>> Okay, brother. of a person who rejects Christ, worships Satan, can you say, how about you personally? You're not speaking for
>> I can most likely, yes, suspect that they're not going to be in a really good position. I'm still not going to make a determinate statement on their soul. It's not my job.
>> Well, I know it's you can't condemn anybody, but you're supposed to jud judge. It is your job. That's what scripture tells you over.
>> Yeah. To judge those who are within.
>> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So you can't make a Okay. So what about when somebody's kneedeep in sin in your church?
>> You tell them to repent.
>> So you're making a judgment, right?
>> No, you tell them to repent. I don't make a judgment. The judgment is is that I say, "Hey, you're going somewhere."
>> I know that's condemnation. You can't condemn anybody. You can make a judgment, brother. You're told in scripture.
>> But again, again, the the judgments you're asking me to make here is totally different.
>> No, I'm not. I'm asking you if you
>> I'm asking you to make a judgment on where people are going after their death versus making a judgment on whether some behavior is right or not. That's a category error.
>> Okay. If it's a category error, does one category necessarily lead to another? So you said most likely Muslims are going to hell. Why most likely if you're not making a judgment?
>> Because it is the right way. It is not the right way. And also according to what they do, what they practice, you can see that is against the right way.
>> Okay. So therefore, you're making a judgment by saying that's not the right way and following not the right way is going to lead you the wrong way and therefore to hell.
>> Uh, no, I'm not making that judgment.
>> Okay. Well,
>> you're forcing me to say things that I'm not saying.
>> I'm not forcing you to say anything. I'm telling you the logical intellment of your statement means that a person who's following the wrong way is going to end up in a in a sab. So, I'm not saying, "Hey, that Muslim or me, right?"
>> No. What does somebody end up somewhere? That's a definite statement which I'm not making.
>> All right. How about this? So, Muslims earlier you said more likely and then it seems like you you up the Annie or the language when I said a Satanist. You said, "Yeah, it's it's even higher." So, it sounds like you're going in percentages of certainties, right? And what I'm asking is
>> saying that I necessarily need to have a universal answer for you.
>> Need to No, if you're talking about your opinion or you talking about for the church? Well, I mean I don't expecting all those things when you're questioning me.
>> I'm say No, but I'm saying is if you're the if you answer for the church, I would expect so. So, for instance, what does
>> answer for the church?
>> Oh, I I got it. But do you know what your church says about Satanist? Do they say they're possibly saved?
>> No, we I mean there's probably ana against them telling them to repent.
>> All right. So, it's pretty pretty judgmental. Just saying.
>> Yeah. So, again, you still don't understand category errors. Me judge me being able to judge somebody's behavior has nothing to do with me having the authority to judge or give a definitive answer on where somebody's soul goes.
>> Okay, brother. You said you can't make a judgment. I'm proving that you are making judgments left and right. What you're saying is ultimately not understanding errors.
>> Brother, you can keep saying that, but we're advancing. demonstrating it to you why you don't understand basic
>> I I'm telling you are you making any judgments
>> making I never said I can't make judgments
>> okay so I cannot judge definitely where somebody's soul's going you are making judgments so we're not we're not doing a category error because I've identified that you are saying you're making judgments
>> dude I never said I'm not making judgments are you not capable of understanding that
>> all right so then if you are making judgments is the logical intellment of those judgments mean that the person is going to hell you Okay, so let's try it again. Does your church or your opinion of your church say that a Muslim is not entering the kingdom of heaven? Cuz remember, you're really harsh on Catholics when they say they worship the same God. I'm trying to figure out if you guys are in the same ballpark. So, do you say that Muslims are going to heaven?
>> I don't know. This
>> can Can you repeat the question? Sorry, you got cut off.
>> Yeah. I'm saying is do from what your position, your opinion? I'm speaking for the church. Do you know if Muslims go to heaven, do they got a shot or they not?
>> Everybody has a shot to go to heaven.
>> Okay. But if I if they die Muslim rejecting Jesus, praising Allah and and Muhammad, are they are they?
>> Huh?
>> Most likely no.
>> Okay. And then we said, how about a Satanist? And and it went up from most likely to even more. You're making a judgment. How are you making
>> Okay. All right. So, you are you're coming to a conclusion based on the evidence. Now I'm trying to figure out just one thing. It seems to be the language when it comes to Catholics or maybe even Protestants. I don't know how you feel about Protestants, but the language is different.
>> You seem to say the sacraments are invalid. These things are valid. Do you believe the same thing about Protestants? Are those things invalid? Whatever it is they do, they
>> I mean, depending on what type of Protestant I mean, most Protestants don't have sacraments today.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, you can say they don't have the hold to the all the the ones that you have for sure. Okay. So then you would put them in the same boat or you'd put them more likely to be Christian.
>> I don't know.
>> All right. Well, you could you can kind of see the issue, right, brother? You're you're pulling up issue.
>> Okay. Well, let me let me explain it. You're pulling up to tell Sam that you don't make judgments in this area, but you were obviously pressing him to get him to justify his judgment as to why he believes what he believes.
>> Okay.
>> See how that's completely different?
>> What's completely different? I'm I'm asking you to give an account for why those miracles are valid. Okay. How is that different than what you're how is that the same as
>> the same way how you would give an account? What I'm trying to say is you're appealing to the same process. I don't think you're aware.
>> What what process am I appealing to?
>> Scripture, tradition, and reason. So, for instance, how do you know the miracle of Christ's resurrection took place?
>> No, I I don't No, I'm not. Look, I'm not a foundationalist. I don't use those standards.
>> I'm asking you how did you come to your decision then? If you're not a foundationalist, a
>> transcendental argument.
>> Okay. All right. So then walk us through how it is that you come to know that Christ resurrecting from the dead is a miracle that you would claim to final issue which I don't use to justify anything or to rely anything on. What I do is I find the impossibility of all all contrary uh positions and orthodoxy is the only thing that uh grounds logic, reason, morals, metaphysical principles and it's only
>> to me. So you're saying is that you've concluded through your research, through studying scripture, the tradition of the church, and you've come to reason that Eastern Orthodoxy is the ultimate staple, the foundation, the anchor, and nothing else works
>> by again not through directly studying the church. Well, yes, a part of that of course, but mostly through the transcendental argument.
>> Brother, you have to assess whether that argument works. Why are you why are you discuss how that argument works? Would you like to talk about it?
>> Yeah. I mean, we could talk about the argument, but I'm trying to figure out how you came to know that the argument is true. What I'm saying is I don't get why you're pushing
>> the implausibility of the contrary.
>> Hold on. If you guys Hold on. If you guys need me to share a screen or something, let me know. I'll be here in the background. Carry on, folks.
>> All right. So, what I'm trying to get to is why is you why are you pushing back that if you believe that argument is the real argument? I want to know what you used to get there. Did you use your mind, your reason? Did you use script?
>> I used reason.
>> Okay.
>> I used my reason.
>> So are then you earlier you pushed back on me and told me well, I'm not I'm not a what a fundamentalist. You said
>> I'm not a foundationalist. It doesn't mean I don't use evidence as my as my basic epistemology.
>> Okay. So then the transcendental argument is how you came to know that this is the only view.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. So then you had to be convinced of that argument, right?
>> And what we discussed is fair. I don't not putting words in your mouth.
>> I haven't heard your question yet.
>> What?
>> What is your question?
>> I was middle of asking you what.
>> Okay. My my apologies.
>> Yeah. I was asking you what how you came to understand that the transcendental argument is the only thing that grounds or justifies your belief. All of what I said was not is not wrong. is that you're using your mind, you're reasoning, you use scripture, you you you looked at what was being proclaimed, but you're saying is I got it in the wrong order. Okay, fair enough. Then walk us through it.
>> Yeah, by the Again, I already answered the question by the impossibility of all contrary positions.
>> Well, work that out first, bro. We're not as smart as
>> What is your position?
>> Well, so you're not going to work it out first?
>> I am going to work it out because we're doing a we're doing a debate on our paradigm. So, don't you think that you should tell me what your worldview is?
>> Oh, so you want to get to that cuz earlier you said you want to explain it. Walk me through.
>> Oh, it's all about worldviews.
>> Okay. I I agree. But, brother, you're a second ago you said you wanted to get into it. So, you don't want to or you don't?
>> I want to know. No, I am get I am laying that argument out right now because it's my worldview versus yours. And I'm going to prove that in that way that I said I'm going to prove it. But I need to know what your worldview is.
>> I just told you scripture, tradition, or reason.
>> Well, you have no what what tradition do you have? The Christian tradition.
>> Wait, which from what? From what? What Christian tradition?
>> Christ and the apostles. Bro, you okay?
>> Christ and the apostles.
>> Yeah, that's where Wait, that's who we follow. You know they're called Christians, right?
>> Okay. And what tradition?
>> What tradition Christ? What tradition is Christ right now? You trolling me?
>> No. What tradition camera that I'm not seeing somewhere?
>> What? You said you follow traditions. What tradition is Christ?
>> Tradition, bro. It's in the New Testament. Are you not aware? Oh, so the new tra So you agree that the New Testament is a tradition?
>> Yeah. Do you
>> Okay. So where did that tradition come from?
>> Yeah, I asked you. Do you?
>> Where?
>> I do. Yeah. But where did that tradition?
>> So that we agree so far. So why do you ask why we
>> don't agree or we do agree?
>> That's a fallacy. That's a wordy.
>> We both agreeing that it's tradition has nothing to do with whether that tradition is in a correct interpretive framework.
>> Okay, that's fine. We'll get to the interpretive for a second. Do we agree that the Christian tradition is found in Christ and the apostles in the New Testament?
>> Not. No. That's a fallacy.
>> What? Bro, I'm asking you to have the correct agree. Okay. Bro, bro, we really need to chill this out. We were doing fine. Can you and I agree? Can you and I agree?
>> I JP, I'm here to discuss things. Okay, we're discussing things and I'm asking All right, you need JP to drop off. JP, drop off. Drop off, JP. They're doing it again. They're doing it again.
>> Yeah, because you can't answer.
>> Drop off. No, it's you and I now. You and I. I'm going to ask the question, bro. I'm answering your question. Let's go one for one. Let's go one for one. So, I have my question. I asked you if you believe that the New Testament is the Christian tradition, the teaching of Jesus and apostles. You said yes and then you proceeded to, I don't know, get upset. But you my qu my point to that is when you say tradition it means different than what I say tradition. We don't we don't have the same we clearly don't have the same tradition.
>> Okay. We clearly do because you just said yes when I asked you the question. So if you're talking about the later tradition
>> but it's also a tradition to you but we interpret traditions differently.
>> Okay. That's a different thing. So now we've agreed that it is the same tradition but we interpret it differently.
>> I'm not agreeing with you. It's the SAME TRADITION. YOU JUST did a second ago.
>> No, I said I consider as a tradition in my way and you clearly don't.
>> Okay. Is that tradition found with Christ and the apostles?
>> According to who?
>> What? Okay. So now you're saying it's not the Christian tradition.
>> I thought we agreed. Bro, I'm trying to agree.
>> Understand logic and arguments.
>> Yeah, bro. We're asking basic facts. Logic has to do with you being able to answer a question. Why are you afraid? No, you you keep saying it's tradition. I said yes, it's tradition, but I'm not going to allow you to use that as a common ground because
>> what am I? What do you mean? So, you don't want common ground with me then. You just want to fight that.
>> Well, no, we don't have common ground. So, that's the thing.
>> So, WE DON'T HAVE COMMON GROUND that we both believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins.
>> So, do Mormons.
>> Okay. Okay. Wait a minute. So, do we believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins?
>> That's irrelevant.
>> What? Oh, you just said we don't have common ground. You see what you're doing right now? I'm proving everything.
>> It doesn't mean
>> right here in our conversation, bro.
>> You said we have we have no common ground. Do we believe in the gospel?
>> We don't have common ground. I said common ground doesn't mean that we actually agree.
>> No, you said we don't have common ground, bro. You just said it.
>> Yeah. On that topic we're talking about right now, we don't have common ground.
>> So, we don't have common ground that you and I believe by by grace through faith. We don't even have that. We got nothing.
>> Yeah, but you you you listen, you define those words completely differently.
>> No, I don't. You don't even know what I believe. But I'm saying in general, you can't say that we're Christians.
>> You can say you're Christians, but it doesn't mean that it's the same. You do you understand something called the word concept fallacy that the word can be.
>> You keep talking about fallacy. The only one that's tripping over his words is you. You keep answering something and then changing. I We haven't even talked about we agree on anything. That's all my question is.
>> We don't agree. I believe we do. We don't
>> on anything. Nothing at all. We don't agree on anything.
>> We have a completely different stoogology. We have a complete different understanding of God, brother.
>> Bro, you don't even know my stoology. You don't even know it.
>> Yeah. Well, you I do know. I know. I know. We don't have the same one.
>> Okay. You can say that, but
>> I can say that I'm a part of the church. Anybody's My teaching is everybody out of the church don't have the same understanding.
>> Okay. So then if everybody outside the church doesn't have the same understanding, therefore everybody outside the church is necessarily on the wrong path. They're not on the right.
>> They're on the wrong path.
>> Yeah. And then on the wrong path says that there's only one way. There's only one path. So people on the wrong path are not in agreement with you apparently at all in any way. And they're on their way where?
>> Even even if they by the I'll answer two of your questions. Okay. The first you're saying that they're not on the right way. Yes. They're not on the right way. But it doesn't mean that we can one make a definitive decision on where they're going. Two,
>> how can you not?
>> I'm just that that bothers me
>> because I already answered you. The soul is not the property of men. The soul is the property of God. You
>> Let me ask you, are you in Christ? How about can we get there? Can we establish that? Because I'm trying to find where we agree. Are you in Christ?
>> Am I in Christ? What does that mean? What do you mean by in Christ? Are you a Bro, are you a Bro, you need to stop doing this. I know you know the answers to these questions.
>> No, no. No, no, because you you're asking loaded questions and I want to make sure that you're not
>> Bro, they're not loaded. I'm literally trying to find commonality, bro. Just ease it down.
>> We don't have commonality.
>> Okay, you keep saying that. I'm trying to verify that because I've never heard it. You know, I could pull I could pull EOS here right now. They'd pull up on the stage and they'd say, "Yes, bro. We have some commonalities." But you just think that if you give an inch that somehow I'm gonna take a yard. I'm not. Bro,
>> can you allow me to demonstrate what I'm talking about?
>> Okay. If you want to, you can. But what you're saying is what you're going to ultimately say is by your proclamation that you and I have nothing in common. By that statement, you're necessarily saying that people who don't believe what you believe are on their way to hell. That's what that means.
>> So again, it's two things that I'm trying in common in certain way. It doesn't mean that we have things in common that we can work with. That's different because yes, you and I could say that we believe Christ died for our sins.
>> You could call that a commonality, but that doesn't mean that we mean that in the same way, same understanding.
>> So, I want to make sure we establish all of those things and I want you to understand where I'm going. I don't want you to just, you know, think of it the way that you would think of it.
>> Okay? If I'm thinking of it in the wrong way, then this is getting deeper than I ever thought. So, you're saying is there's people out in the world that can believe uh Jesus is God, therefore trinity by grace through faith, and that they're essentially on the wrong path. That's what you're saying.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. And then necessarily, you're not making the judgment, but we could all add up 2 plus two in the chat. That means they're not on the right path. They're on the wrong path. So therefore, chat can figure it out. they are where going to where if they're on the wrong path we could put it together chat
>> absolutely
>> the thing is we don't have a legalistic system like you do have in the west you see this with yeah do you not see it with the Roman Catholic system where where the modern evangelical movement evolved from we don't have a legalistic just like we don't have a definitive number from canon we don't ascribe to that legalistic mindset
>> okay if you think it's legalistic for somebody to say that they believe in the gospel I just gave maybe the essentials. So, by the way, your church would agree. That's why they don't wholesale just throw Catholics into uh hell, right? Or Protestants. Um
>> we don't make that we don't make that determination on any on
>> I know. But do you realize how in this conversation how rough that is for you guys?
>> That's rough. You you you insist on me having to be 100% in that.
>> I'm not having the your church is making statements, bro. never about where somebody is going.
>> Okay. Then why are you concerned that anybody believe what you believe if you can't make a statement that they're on the wrong path?
>> I I am making a statement that they're on the wrong path. But the wrong path say that I'm going to make a statement condemning their souls to hell.
>> Nobody say you can't condemn nobody. I'm asking you your statement that they're on the wrong path means what? That that why are you nervous?
>> On the right path to salvation. Okay. So therefore, if they're not in salvation,
>> you understand that something can be doesn't have to be mut uh something can be both. And do you understand that?
>> I'm literally the one explaining it to you by these questions.
>> No, you're not.
>> Yeah, I am.
>> Because they're on the wrong path, they necessarily have to say they go to hell. So then what you're saying is no case can out of his mercy unite them to the mystical body of the church.
>> I believe that. I believe that. And I believe that too.
>> Okay. So then if somebody is is rejecting Christ, the Satanist, and is is saying that Satan is their king, their Lord, I can say,
>> probably not going to a very good place.
>> Uh, okay. Well, I would say is according to the scripture, it says that they're on their way to hell.
>> Sure.
>> Like for instance, now are are I asked you if you were in Christ. Are you a Christian? I don't think I got
>> I'm a Christian. Yes.
>> Okay. So you're in Christ?
>> Yeah. If that's that's what you want to define.
>> All right. Because because if I use saved, I know you guys don't like that language. So I'm saying is Okay. So
>> I'm just confused what that means because nobody ever asked me it in that way.
>> Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right, bro. So then let's advance. You want to ask me a question? Then I can ask you a question. So you can explain your your side of your view how you came to to know this the transcendental argument.
>> Well, yeah. It's I mean I'm not going to I can go hours on that but usually how I would do that by talking to somebody is to know your position and to compare uh the positions in a with epistemology. So I need to know what you believe in. That's
>> I told you how I come to know something is scripture, tradition and reason which is what the scripture tells me.
>> Oh that's a circle.
>> Yeah. Well
>> so that's a fallacy. [clears throat]
>> What are you talking about? You're in the same circle.
>> You just said I know the scripture is true because the scriptures that's a
>> Right. So watch this. How do you know the church is true?
>> Uh by the church circle.
>> Yeah. Right. So I can have a circle.
>> Explain what you believe. Bro have a circle. You
>> So now you can have a bro or dude. You guys are insufferable. Bro,
>> are are you going to have a circle but nobody else can have a circle or is it just
>> because you can't have a circle around the Bible? What
>> says who circle man?
>> How do you have a circle on a on a
>> TOLD ME I HAD A CIRCLE? DO YOU GOT A CIRCLE?
>> I HAVE A CIRCLE.
>> DO YOU have a circle?
>> I I have a circle. I have no problem.
>> All right, then. All right. So, let me ask you a question. Your church told you what are you talking about? You asked me what I'm asking you. Your church told you. How do you know your because I'm a presuppositionalist?
>> Okay. All right. Ask me one. Go ahead. Ask me one. That I'm asking.
>> Let me explain to you. I have a circle because I'm a presuppositionalist. I set the church because the church is divinely revealed.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And I'm prove that by the transcendental argument. You cannot have a circle in your paradigm because your paradigm is built on a finite book.
>> A finite book. The word of God object. How do you have Okay, now you want to transgend the transcendental argument.
>> Okay. Wait. No, no, hold on. Hold on. No, no, no, no, no, no. Now it's my turn. Now it's my turn. Now it's my turn. Now it's my turn. No. Okay.
>> How do you know that the church Hold on. How do you know that the church has
>> I haven't even asked you the question.
>> Hold on, bro. You just Bro, YOU JUST BLURTED OUT. YOU JUST BLURTED OUT EVERYTHING. OKAY, ask me the question quickly. Go.
>> I So I again I explain it to you. WHY YOU
>> DON'T EXPLAIN. ASK THE QUESTION. WHAT'S your question? Go ahead.
>> The question is you cannot have
>> You're telling ME SOMETHING. ASK ME A QUESTION. I'M TRYING TO
>> GO AHEAD.
>> Let me ask a question.
>> Bro, you've already repeated everything. Just ask me the question. Go ahead.
>> So, how can a finite object
>> okay that we can demonstrabably prove that is finite ground metaphysics, logic,
>> the eternal will, the eternal word of God, bro, is not finite, but whatever. So, you're asking me is eternal. The book is eternal.
>> The word of God, the word, the will of God is eternal. You believe the word is in the word of God, right?
>> You think John? Wait. Where does it say the word is eternal?
>> Wait a minute. So now you're asking me more questions.
>> Now you're off. Now I got three. Now I got three questions to ask you. So, here's the first one.
>> Fallacy
>> here. Okay. If my question's a fallacy and nobody can have a circle but you. But you admitted you have a circle. Let me ask
>> explaining to you why.
>> Okay. Well, bro, too late. I gave you your opportunity. I answered your question. You asked. You don't believe the word is eternal. I believe the word is eternal. So you said I don't know now.
>> What is the word? What is the word?
>> Bro, literally you want to go to scripture now or you do not?
>> What is the word?
>> Do you want to go TO SCRIPTURE?
>> ASK ME A QUESTION. I'M trying to answer.
>> It is It is the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal word.
>> Yeah.
>> Hold on a second. Now you're going to answer my question. Now you're going to answer mine. So how do you know that the church who told you that they're the ones that is your authority? How do you know they have authority? Let's go ahead.
>> Transcendental argument. I just
>> No, no, no, no, no, no. How do you know that the church How do you know that the church is the authority they should be listening to?
>> Through the transcendental equ uh the the argument through divine revelation.
>> No. So the what? You what? Sorry. I'm sorry. What? Wait, wait. I'm sorry. What? What? Through through what? Through what?
>> Transcendental argument.
>> No, you said through what? You said through divine revelation. So Oh, well, you got a scripture that depends on the word, not the eternal word. Isn't that what you were saying? SO THE ONE ETERNAL WORD HAS TOLD YOU that this bro don't cut me off. Don't cut me off. I'm I'm restating your argument. I'm going to I'm going to Yes, I am. The word the non-eternal word, that's you. The non-eternal word told you that the church is the authority. Who's got the bigger circle now, bro? Didn't you tell me earlier about serving?
>> No, no, no, wait, wait, wait a minute. So, first of all, that is not what I don't know why you asked the question about the word because we're talking about the Bible. Okay. I asked you whether the Bible's eternal. You said, "Is the word eternal?" That's why I keep asking you.
>> Why is the others revealed in time? Eventually gets the scripture, bro. It gets the scripture.
>> You said your entire worldview is built on a finite project. Uh, excuse me.
>> Yo, this dude is this dude's caving. So, you guys just absolutely trash the word, huh? A finite project.
>> Again, [laughter] the word if the word is Jesus and the Jesus is
>> All right. All right. All right. So,
>> we're talking about the Bible and you went to talk about Jesus.
>> Get to what I just said. Get to what I just said. Okay. What I just said was you told me that the church told you that they have this authority and then I said, "Well, how do you know that they had the authority?" You said you got it from the Bible. Eternal, right?
>> I never said the Bible. I You SAID THE BIBLE.
>> YOU SAID DIVINE REVELATION.
>> I said divine revelation, which is not just the Bible to me.
>> So, you didn't get it from So, wait a minute. The authority of the church, you don't know and can confirm it through the Bible. No, I we don't we don't see the Bible and the church as separate things. We see it as one thing. You
>> How do you know? How do you know that the church has the authority?
>> Separated from the church.
>> How do you know that the church has the authority? Where did you get that from?
>> Uh
>> you said divine revelation. What's divine revelation? That's
>> why Okay. Where do you get the idea?
>> You don't You're not using M. I'm confused, bro. I thought you were going to use
>> the idea that divine revelation necessarily is scripture.
>> What? Okay. I'm asking you is what's the divine revelation then? What is it? If it's not scripture of the faith and God's relationship through his energies with humankind.
>> Okay. So then what you're telling me is personal. You had a personal revelation.
>> So my first question to you.
>> Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. What's your first question? So, do you understand that I can have a circle and you can't because your circle is built on a finite object?
>> No, I don't understand that. I can have a circle and you can have a circle, but your circle is Okay, shut up. I'm trying to talk. I'm trying to talk and you're not letting me talk. I let you ask me the question, bro. Come on. Before Before you guys continue talking, I just wanted to say there's 130 people watching. Y'all make sure to drop a like. All right, God bless you guys. If you're enjoying this combo is getting heated. We're all grown men. It happens. Drop a like. God bless.
>> Yeah. By the way, I don't hate this brother at all. I don't know how he feels about me, but I'm not mad at him that way. I'm just trying to figure out
>> I watch your videos. You talk a lot of [ __ ] on Eastern Orthodox.
>> Okay. Well, watch your mouth, bro. Watch your mouth. Watch your mouth, bro. Can you control your mouth?
>> What?
>> All right. So, let's get back to it. So, the authority of the church.
>> Yeah. Let's let's try to tone down the cursing because this uh this is a family show. So, carry on folks.
>> All right. So, you're telling me that the authority of the church that you got it from divine revelation. Now, divine revelation you said encompasses scripture as well. But I'm trying to figure out are you getting at that you had a personal sort of revelation to you? meaning like the spirit, you know, you had a personal divine um experience cuz that's what another eo told me and I don't want to straw man you, bro.
>> Well, you can have personal everybody's going to eventually have personal relationships, but that has nothing to do with the transcendental argument which is the beginning argument that it is the coherent worldview, the only coherent worldview that can uh that can ground metaphysics, logic, ethics.
>> And that's the point I was trying to make to you. If that divine revelation is eternal, then I can have a circle there. You can't have a circle because you based it on a book.
>> You I just told you the word is eternal. Listen, bro. I think the word
>> Jesus, IT'S NOT THE BOOK,
>> BRO. I I agree with you that the word of God, meaning scripture is revealed in time and space. You were saying earlier
>> the word of God to me is Jesus Christ the logos. IT'S NOT
>> I TOLD YOU THAT. I SAID THAT EARLIER. YOU'RE NOW ASKING ABOUT THE BRAND ABOUT THE WRITTEN WORD, BRO. YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT BRO, YOU'RE ALL OVER THE PLACE. AND YOU KNOW WHY? Because all you can do is fall back because you can't explain your worldview. Explain it. No, don't ask any questions. You have to explain your worldview. You just said this. Hey bro, you can't have a circle because I have a better circle. That's all you know because I built it on AN ETERNAL PRINCIPLE.
>> OKAY, but can I have a circle? Can I have an illogical circle?
>> Have a circle. Nobody else can have other than you.
>> Your circular reasoning, your circular reasoning is the only one that exists
>> because I can have that.
>> WELL, I ASK YOU A QUESTION. IS YOUR CIRCULAR REASONING THE ONLY ONE THAT can exist? Yes or no?
>> Yes. In my opinion,
>> YOURS IS THE ONLY CIRCULAR REASONING THAT CAN EXIST. No other circular reasoning can can exist.
>> When it's Do you know what a FALLACY IS,
>> BRO? YES, I KNOW. I'M ASKING you a QUESTION FOR THE RECORD. IS THE CIRCLE possible outside of your circle? It's not possible
>> to me. No.
>> All right, bro. Explain your transcendental argument, bro. Stop worrying about other people's circles. Define your nice circular reasoning. Go ahead. The floor journey.
>> Okay,
>> bro. No, tell me what it is. Tell me what it is.
>> I just I've been spending the past 20 MINUTES DOING IT.
>> YOU HAVEN'T EXPLAINED ANYTHING.
>> Circle is built ON ETERNAL PRINCIPLES.
>> OKAY. I GET IT. I AGREE WITH YOU. BUT TELL US HOW IT WORKS. TELL US HOW IT WORKS. HOW DOES IT WORK?
>> TELL US HOW IT WORKS. Wait a minute. Do you believe that God's will, his revelation is in a book?
>> NOT ENTIRELY.
>> OKAY. SO DO I. WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM, BRO?
>> Your position. I want to know your position. I'm going to shut up now. Tell the audience. Put this dude full screen. Tell the audience your argument. You said you came to know something from an argument which is divine revelation. The floor is yours. Go ahead.
>> Yeah, I already explained it to you that orthodoxy, the orthodox paradigm is the only coherent worldview that can grant lo uh that can ground logic. Okay. Uh and all the metaphysical principles such as ethics and morals and while yours can't.
>> That's it. That's it.
>> All right. Well, good luck with that, brother. That's a great explanation. I have a better circle and you didn't explain it.
>> No, I I never said anything about circle.
>> What? Bro,
>> you made you made a circular f. Do you understand there's a difference?
>> Hold up. Oh, you're not going to do this. This is going to be strike three. JP, get ready. Did you not say that you you the only one that can have a circle over and over?
>> I can have a circle. I have
>> You do have a circle.
>> I do have A CIRCLE.
>> OH, WHY DID YOU JUST SAY A SECOND AGO you didn't?
>> Because in that last statement I give, I didn't say a circle. I thought that was what you were you were referring to.
>> Bro, I'm summing up your argument that you're the only one that can have circle.
>> Do you understand there's a difference between having a circle
>> do you understand that you just what you understand? Do you understand something? That you just told us that what you think is true is because you believe Eastern Orthodoxy is true. That's all you said. And I'm okay with it, bro.
>> No, that's not what I said. That's literally not what I said.
>> Yeah, that's literally what you said. You said no other no other
>> You're not going to listen to what I'm even saying to you, then there's I did. I heard it. We'll play it back. Replay it back.
>> Play it back. What did I say? Repeat it.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm going to repeat it for you.
>> I can have a circle because
>> Uhhuh.
>> So you So you can have circular reason why
>> you weren't listening.
>> Yeah. So you can have circular reasoning why. Go ahead.
>> You would engage with a guy who won't even listen.
>> You can have circular reasoning why.
>> Why would I engage with a guy who don't even
>> Okay. So you don't want to engage now. You came here to tell us. You came to tell us your world view and you said I have a circle. Nobody else can have a circle. You got it, bro. All right. You don't have to have the conversation. You good?
>> You don't have to have the combo. So, you good now or what? [clears throat]
>> Wait for me to engage this guy. He's not
>> fair. Well, don't worry about JP, bro. You're gonna have to engage with me. You're not going to engage with him.
>> Are we good here? Are we Are we good?
>> Started to engage me.
>> I I know. I agreed. And that's that's all we're doing here, bro. And I'm just telling you your answers are not satisfactory to tell me that your circle and nobody
>> You're not even listening to my answers. I I don't you will release this entire clip. But you you literally did not listen to me.
>> Okay. We gave you full screen and you told us that you're convinced that your paradigm or your your worldview that's based on the eternal rea revelation of God meaning in space.
>> Let me clarify something real quick. I I do not release clips of people if you guys watch my thing. I just let the whole video right out. So, yeah. Car and it'll always be there. So, anyways, bro, since I know you said you had an hour. We're coming up on your hour.
>> Is there anything you want to finish with or
>> I didn't expect that to get heated. Uh,
>> well, I'm I'm not mad at you, bro. I like it. We go back and forth.
>> Bro, man is going to happen, bro. It comes with the territory.
>> Counter counterdox. I'm going to say this to you before we even cut off here. Okay? I love you as a brother. I think you're a Christian. I know that you may see my position, my view differently. I would never in a million years, bro, tell you that you leaving uh, you know, atheism or agnosticism, wherever you were, and coming to Eastern Orthodoxy, your your journey is is something that I don't see as powerful, and I understand more and more people are coming through it through all the different phase, not just Eastern Orthodoxy. So, I believe arguments are getting better and I believe you would be a good testimony for that because I did find that interesting in what you said. And glory to God that you are in the faith and that I consider you a Christian. That's all.
>> Again, forgive me if I got heated because this is also why I
>> Bro, there's nothing to ask for forgiveness for, bro. We all get heated. were grown men and had now you do have 19 minutes before