Medjugorje Explained - Fr Leon Pereira from Mary TV Answers the Critics

At one point in our conversation, she showed me a series of visions of the future of the church. And they were very, very short. They were something like 7 to nine stills or vignettes. And um they were all wonderful, amazing things apart from one. One was bad. And then she told me, "You will forget much of this." And I said, "No, I won't." And I thought she just meant because I had a bad memory. But I think she meant she was going to make me forget. So immediately after the conversation I forgot. I remember the emotions.

So during COVID, you know, when there was not very much to do, I tried to think about, you know, at that age, what would have got me so excited about the future of the church and the unification of all Christians in one holy Catholic church, the evangelization of many nations, the conversion of Russia, China, England. All those things would have got me very excited. But I don't know if that's what she showed me. The only thing I remember is the bad thing, which is...

Hello and welcome to Catholic Unscripted. I'm Katherine Bennett, and I'm Mark Lambert. And we have conversations about the faith and about the world through the lens of our Catholic faith. And joining us in conversation today is Father Leon, Dominican priest in Medjugorje, chaplain to the English speakers in Medjugorje. Is that correct?

Uh, yes, I was chaplain until recently. Chaplain here for 10 years. But yes.

But you're still based there?

I'm still based here. Yes. Working with Mary TV.

Mary TV. And there's a reason for that, folks. It's because Father Leon has a great gift, as you would expect, as a Dominican. Um, so go over to Mary TV and tune in to you've got something called, you were telling us, Father, Fry the Fryer. That's, is that right?

Yes, that's one of the programs. And the other one is Sermon to Go. Fry the Fryer is people emailing questions that I try and answer. And Sermon to Go is me commenting on the readings, all the readings for Sundays and Solemnities.

Yeah. Brilliant. And that's online. Is it marytv.com or?

marytv.tv. So go and check that out. You won't be sorry. Um, and we invited you on, Father Leon, because many watching now will remember that a couple of weeks ago we spoke with Professor Williams, who has, uh, written a book about Marian apparitions around the world. And we got onto Medjugorje, and he, he spoke, um, with concern about Medjugorje and, um, some of the, uh, the, what would you say, Mark? I'm trying to, my my mind's gone blank now.

You forgot your name earlier.

Just some of the, some of the things that have gone on surrounding Medjugorje, haven't they? And, and, uh, you know, like we're not experts on, like, one of the things about the, the, the whole situation there is that Katherine and I have never been, whereas we've, you know, we've sort of, we're great devotees of Lourdes and, uh, Walsingham and Knock and, you know, a lot of these other places. But, um, I would love to go to Medjugorje, but, uh, I've never got round to it. And obviously, we, I think, you know, just reading the messages and stuff like that, we've been, you know, a lot of people, I think, before they go to Medjugorje anyway, tend to be a little bit quizzical. And there's certainly a, uh, a trend within the church that it's a bit like, uh, theological Marmite. You said before we started recording, you know, you either love it or you hate it.

Yeah. So,

And that's what we found in the comments. Is some people saying, "At last, you know, we, we're hearing about the hoax of Medjugorje," and others saying, "You've got no idea what you're talking about. It's, it's a wonderful, holy place." So hence, Father Leon, you have come to join us today to share your perspective, uh, to add to Professor Williams for our viewers. Um, I wonder if you'd begin with your own personal encounter with Our Lady, which, uh, took place at Medjugorje. Is that correct?

It did. Yes. Um, that was a long time ago. I, I grew up in Singapore. That's where I'm from. And, um, it was, Medjugorje became a huge thing in Singapore in the late 1980s because our church at the time, in my memory, I think we were going very liberal, you know, all this liberation theology sort of business and that sort of thing. People still prayed, we were, people were devout, but it was a little bit empty, bit a little bit hollow. And, um, we weren't catechized. So I was, um, um, enticed away by evangelicals like the Pied Piper. Uh, and I, I abandoned them after a few months because I was exhausted because all they seemed to do was live on their emotions, from my point of view. So I, I got fed up of all that. And I was in this sort of limbo until Medjugorje came along. And, um, when I heard about Medjugorje and what they were actually saying here in Medjugorje, it brought me back to the Catholic faith with a, with a vengeance, really. You know, soon after, a whole series of coincidences started happening. And I was, I was 17, and I was introduced to the Church Fathers and, um, apologetics and things like that. But it was all because of Medjugorje. And so I owe Our Lady a great deal. And then I came here myself when I was 20. We still have national service back in Singapore. So I was in the army at the time, and I had broken my spine, blah, blah, blah. It's a long, boring story. And I came here in thanksgiving, not about the spine, but, uh, in thanksgiving for recovering my faith. So I came along. And honestly, I, I didn't believe in going looking for signs. Um, even in those days, I remember people used to talk about the clouds turning into various shapes of a dove or, I don't know, Our Lady of Mount Carmel or something like that. Um, the spinning sun, rosaries turning to gold, etc. Uh, I don't think at the time people talked about the smell of roses, or at least I never heard about that at that time. But when I came, I really believed in not looking for signs because I thought that was putting the Lord to the test. So, um, to be honest, I think on our very first day, we arrived close to, uh, the time of the apparition in the evening. And, um, I think I believe the miracle of the sun was taking place, but I just refused to look because I thought it was putting the Lord to the test. I've seen it lots of times since, and, um, I don't, there's no physical explanation for it, you know, because, and I don't encourage anyone to do this because honestly, if you look at the sun ordinarily, your, your retina should be burnt within a few seconds, and that's it. You'll never see again. It's just foolishness. But I have to admit here, when Our Lady appears, whatever time of day, this thing happens, the so-called miracle of the sun. I tease the Irish. I tell them, "The miracle of the sun for you is that yellow thing in the sky that you've never seen." But it's a wonder I haven't been lynched yet. And, um, anyway, I have witnessed this myself, and I, there's no physical, natural explanation for it. Um, the other things, rosaries turning to gold. I've been shown rosaries that have allegedly turned. Um, but all these things, I, I discourage in the main, you know. I tell people, "That's great. That's marvelous. I hope it encourages your faith. But a sign has to point to a destination. And the destination, if it's not Christ, then get rid of it. You don't need these things." So even here, when they say, "What does the miracle of the sun mean?" I tell them, "Well, it looks like a host, so it's telling you, go to Mass and stop looking at the sun, you know." And also, I, I keep telling the pilgrims over and over again that the, the two greatest signs of Medjugorje are the Eucharist and confession because the Eucharist is a sign pointing to Jesus, and it is Jesus, the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord. And the, and confession is a sign of God's forgiveness, and it is God's actual forgiveness.

So there's nothing better than these two signs. This is what we need. We need Jesus. We shouldn't be hung up on these other little signs. So, I came on that trip in 1991. And to cut a long story short, on the 11th of September '91, and between 4 and 5:30 in the morning, I saw a young lass who was made out of orange golden light, standing on Cross Mountain. Uh, there are two mountains in Medjugorje, Cross Mountain and Apparition Hill. And, uh, Cross Mountain, as you might have guessed from the name, has a huge cross on the top. And she was standing where the cross is. Um, 16-year-old girl made of orange golden light. Uh, 16, that's my estimation. And she was small, petite, svelte little thing. Um, wearing a very simple dress, much simpler than my habit, with her holding her hands with the palms open on either side down, um, and a veil on her head which hung straight down. It didn't go drooping over her shoulders, you know. And she was alive. She was watching us. I wasn't alone. I was with my friend Kevin. We both watched her, and, um, she watched us. And we had no idea. I think I don't know the experience of seeing her at the time. I just thought I was losing my mind. You know, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And then I thought, "Am I imagining it, you know, through some desire to see her? Have I somehow projected this image or hologram or whatever it is on the mountain?" But, um, she was alive, and she was watching us. And, um, I am cutting the story much shorter. Couple of hours later, when we were in the church, I had a, a second part to this experience where I was just standing near the statue of Our Lady. I was looking at her, and I was just wondering, "What was that all about, you know, with with the girl on the mountain?" And, uh, the second half was that I started to hear a voice speaking inside me. And, okay, I'm going to summarize it because, um, she just, she just launched into this, um, narrative, telling me the story of my own life back to me, which is very strange. She had a very different perspective, whoever this lady was. And she was far more positive than I would have been. She told me many of the bad things that had happened to me were blessings. And she also told me all of my sins as they came up. And she showed me how these different sins hurt the heart of Jesus. Uh, she impressed on me greatly the sins of the tongue, how dangerous they are, especially gossip, calumny, detraction, um, where, and I think a lot of Catholics are not familiar with these things, you know, where they, I often hear people telling me that, you know, "Gossip is okay so long as you're telling the truth." I have to say, "No, it's not." You know, that's detraction. When you tell the truth about someone and destroy their reputation, this is bad. This is really bad. Anyway, um, and when she finished, she said, "You are happy because you have seen me." So I thought, "Ah, it's the girl on the mountain." So I said, "Yes, I'm very happy. Who are you?" And she said, "I am your mother, the Mother of God. I want you to tell everyone you meet that I am their mother and that I love them." She said near the beginning of the conversation, she said, "Do not begin to imagine that you deserve to see me. God gives grace as he chooses." Okay. And then, there are lots of other things she said, uh, but they don't really concern anyone else. So I'm not going to go into all that. But if you're terribly interested, I think there are lots of videos of me giving this testimony on YouTube somewhere. I don't know, people have recorded me and put me online. So you can watch the whole story if you're terribly interested, uh, online.

So that, that's what gave you the impetus really to, like, your vocation and everything came from that experience?

Yes. Although initially, I just thought I'm losing my mind, you know.

Didn't have mushrooms for dinner or anything, any strange?

Did I? Did I what?

Didn't have any strange mushrooms for dinner or anything before you went?

I was in Singapore. You'd be hanged for that.

Well, yeah. That, I mean, that is very interesting because I think a lot of these things, in my experience, um, sometimes you can experience something extremely supernatural like that, and it, it almost becomes something that you forget very quickly. You have an experience which at the time can be extremely transformative. But as time goes on, do you find, like in my experience, that you rationalize that supernatural experience, and it, it recedes into the background?

Yes. Yes. So in my life, that speaks to what you're talking about, that the real message of, you know, you can have these extraordinary experiences, and I've had several, and but the real thing that matters is that your heart is changed, and that you're drawn closer to Jesus through that experience. Is that, would how would you speak to that?

I felt guilty for a long time because I thought I haven't done any of the things that she asked me to. And also wrestling with wondering if I'd lost my sanity. And, you know, these kind of experiences, they really knock you off kilter, and you can't tell anyone. No one's going to believe you. And also, you have no desire to tell anyone because it's so personal and so intimate. You have no desire to share these things. You know what? Why cast your pearls before the swine of the world? Okay. Um, but I talk about it because she told me to. She said, "Tell everyone you meet that I'm their mother and that I love them." Now, my experience doesn't authenticate Medjugorje. You know,

because as I tell the pilgrims or people who have heard my story, you don't know me from Adam. I could be a liar. I could be doing this to make people think I'm wonderful and holy and spiritual. I could be evil, trying to destroy the Catholic faith from within with a silly story like this. Maybe I told the story drunkenly in a pub one day and now I'm stuck. I have to keep repeating it, you know. And Katherine put me under pressure now, and I had to recount it yet again, you know. So any of these scenarios could be true. So as I tell people, if you don't believe me, who cares? I don't care. In, in fact, Our Lady said to me, she said, "You must be completely indifferent to what people say about you, both good things and bad."

It's one of the things that she said. So, I don't care. I care that people believe Jesus and believe the Catholic faith. This is the most important thing.

Any St. Fina, that, I mean, it's very similar, isn't it, to St. to to what Our Lord says to St. Fina, or the, the journey that she goes on is one of humiliation because of the graces that are poured out on her?

I have to confess my ignorance. I, I don't know. I've never read a diary. I've tried and failed miserably. But is that, I guess I put myself?

I'm reading you at the moment. So every, every Katherine will tell you everything that we do at the moment. I'm just saying, "Oh, that's like St. Fina." But genuinely, there's, get up in the morning, and I get a voice note from Mark saying, "Hey, guess what? St. Fina." You know, so I'm kind of, I've got it as well, and I'm going through it, but Mark's well ahead of me, so he's, spoiler alert.

It's your session for now.

Well, there's a really powerful bit I was reading this morning, and that's what it was. It was like about Fina realizing that it's like a mortification, you know, that that she's being told by Jesus to go to confession and to expose herself. Like, and she feels what you're saying. She feels like, "If I say, you know, if I say these things, everyone's going to think I'm mad." So, you know, I just close myself up and I'm not saying it. And then she's coming out of confession, and Jesus is telling her off, and saying, you know, "Look, I told you to tell him." And it's almost like for that mission, that, you know, so the world will know. And look, unfortunately, you're going to be a victim soul, you know, in this transaction. But, um, if you're prepared to do it, then it's going to save a lot of people in the long run. So I suppose, I mean, that's a very East End way, not a very theological.

You're absolutely right. Absolutely right. She did ask me, she said, "Are you willing to suffer for my son Jesus?" And then she told me where my greatest sufferings would come from. But I, I'll tell you after the recording.

Right? We'll tell you in the debrief, everyone. Well, but as I said, my experience, it's just, it's my personal experience. It's, um,

Yeah.

It's subjective.

And, and it, it's not, um, it's not a validation or invalidation of Medjugorje either way. It's irrelevant, in many ways. Strictly speaking, when we come to judge Medjugorje, the phenomenon of Medjugorje is based on the, the six visionaries here and the two locutionaries. Okay. The six children who claim they see Our Lady, and then the, the two little girls, they're older than me, I think, who, no, they're a bit younger than me, who heard Our Lady for many years.

Yeah. Yeah. I thought, I mean, we'll come to that now, but, um, I thought there was, when I've heard you speak, as you say, you can look at other videos where you go into greater depth, there was a couple of amusing things. One is your, well, this isn't amusing, but you, you said, "Can I die?" You know, you're in the presence of your mother, and in a sense, you don't want that to end. You just want to be in her presence forever. But then also some warnings, um, if that's the right word, about what you will maybe come to see or experience in your life, and your hope that your parents don't have to live through that, which really resonated with me because my mom died when I was in my late teens, and I often look back at knowing her as I did, and she was, she was quite old for her age, you know, well, she was old anyway, but she was also an old person, you know, she never had a sort of youthful spirit. She was very traditional, and she'd be horrified, absolutely horrified by some of the stuff that everybody just takes as read today. So, I can see a blessing in her not being around to have to live through that. So, so that resonated with me. But it was amusing the way you explained it that you, you were like, "Yeah, can I die?" But also, "Can my parents die before they have to see this?" Do you want to say about that?

At one point in our conversation, she showed me a series of visions of the future of the church. And they were very, very short. They were something like 7 to nine stills or vignettes. And um, they were all wonderful, amazing things apart from one. One was bad. And then she told me, "You will forget much of this." And I said, "No, I won't." And I thought she just meant because I had a bad memory. But I think she meant she was going to make me forget. So immediately after the conversation I forgot. I remember the emotions. So during COVID, you know, when there was not very much to do, I tried to think about, you know, at that age, what would have got me so excited about the future of the church and the unification of all Christians in one holy Catholic church, the evangelization of many nations, the conversion of Russia, China, England. All those things would have got me very excited. But I don't know if that's what she showed me. The only thing I remember is the bad thing, which is: "A time will come, is coming, when almost every Catholic in the whole world will be ashamed of Jesus and ashamed of his words, and led by their leaders, they will turn their backs on Jesus, just like that. And very few Catholics will remain faithful, very, very few. And the faithful will be persecuted by all the other Catholics with a vengeance. And they will make it difficult for the faithful ones to go to work, to go to school, to go to the shops, to live, to function. Uh, because so long as the faithful exist, it sort of shows them up. So they will hate them with a great passion." And that's, it was at that point when I asked Our Lady, and I said, "Uh, Blessed Mother, please let my parents die before this happens." And she kept quiet, but I think the answer was yes. She didn't answer, but I think she meant yes. So, yeah, so that, that was part of the experience. I don't know what it's about. I, there are lots of things that come along, and I think, "Is this it?" I'm not sure, but I don't know. I don't remember.

Gosh, I wonder if it is an "it" or a "because." Even as you were saying that, I was thinking, one can almost recognize the movement that way. At least, if it's not one thing, it's a progression towards that happening.

Yes. There's something I could add to it, um, a little bit. Is this image of the church as Holy Mother Church being given a Judas kiss and then being prostituted by her own sons, you know, who will act as pimps rather than sons. It's a terrible thing to say. I feel terrible just saying those words, actually. It makes my skin crawl. But that's, that's the image I was left with.

Well, I wonder if it is so terrible because we've been, actually, I know that we're digressing now, and we can stop at any point, but, um, there's a number of times over the past few months, Mark, isn't there, where we've, various conversations, I'm not sure with whom, what it was about at the time, where we've looked back at the Old Testament scripture and reflected on Israel and how, you know, Israel's were freed from slavery, but then they, their heart, their hearts became hard, and God, um, said, was it Hosea? I'm going to get the name wrong. Was it Hosea? Mark, God said, "You will, you, you have to marry a harlot."

And you will have children not my people.

And not,

not loved.

Not loved. And not my.

And these are the chosen people of God. And it's not an abandonment of his promises, but it's, it's not to say I won't fulfill my promises. I think Scott Hahn describes it more as, um, God says, "You will do my will either your way and be blessed. Sorry, either my way and be blessed, or your way and be cursed, but either way, my will be done." And so that image, though it is awful, and when you were saying it, I could see how uncomfortable you were with it, is not completely unfamiliar to those who follow salvation history and can see that happening. Would you say?

Yes. Um, it reminds me actually of something that's not in the Bible, in the second book of Esdras. You know, after the Council of Trent, when the, um, the Clementine Vulgate was, well, Pope Clement said, "Don't forget to include the prayer of Manasseh and one and two Esdras in the appendix, lest they perish altogether." But we never see those books. Um, in fact, that, that prayer that we often say, you know, "Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord," "Let perpetual light," it comes from, I think, second Esdras. Anyway, one of the Esdras is that the plural for them, in one of those books, there is Ezra the scribe, the saint scribe. He has a vision of a lady in great distress, and he berates her, and he says, "How can you be, uh, in mourning when the holy city, Jerusalem, is destroyed and the temple is no more, etc.?" And then she turns into the temple. It's a vision of the, the temple. And also, I mean, if it's, if it's a true vision, it's, uh, not that it's a book of the Bible, but it's in the appendix. Uh, it applies to Holy Mother Church because we are the Israel of God. You know, that, um, yeah, the Catechism says the same, doesn't it? It says that the church will have her Calvary moment before the end and experience that abandonment. Something like that. I can't remember the exact words now.

Passion of the Church. I, I think we,

Mark.

So far, all these things I was just talking about, it was my, this was my subjective experience. We haven't really even touched Medjugorje yet.

Sorry, folks. I don't want to, I don't want to confuse or muddy the waters with, as though my experience is Medjugorje itself.

But we were talking about touching on that. We just mentioned, uh, Our Lady of Akita before we started recording, and we were chatting about, um, the importance of, of like, these revelations, the Marian apparitions in particular, and and reading them with the eyes of the Church, weren't we? Through the lens of the Church, rather than using them to, to sort of discern what's going on in the Church. Because I mean, even as speaking, like, you can see both, like, the old cogs start going around, don't you? And you start going, "Oh, is that that? And is that like, I don't know." That that sort of worries me because, in a way, we can fit almost anything. And we only live for three score years and ten or whatever, don't we? A little bit more if we're lucky. And, you know, or unlucky. And you, you're going to use your subjective environment to sort of, or you make everything relate to you, don't you? Because you are the center of your own universe. So there's a real danger. And the Church thinks in centuries. So there's a lot of talk at the moment about end times. Like, how do we get, how do we work our way through all of this? Father?

I think put private revelation in its proper context, its proper place. Uh, the Church speaks about at least two kinds of revelation. It makes this distinction between public revelation and private revelation. And, um, it's unfortunate, I think, that we use those words because people misunderstand. Public revelation is simply what Jesus left the Apostles. It's the deposit of faith that comes down to us over the centuries from the Apostles to us. Um, you can have an apparition today of Jesus, Our Lady, the Saints to 5 billion people. That does not make it public revelation. It's still private, even if it happened to 5 billion people. Okay? It's private revelation. Now, private revelation cannot add or subtract from our faith. And it cannot change our faith in any way. All it can do is tell us what to do for our time. Okay? So, for example, the, I'm not, I'm trying not to be controversial, but the Divine Mercy devotions. Okay. Um, the promises for what happens on the octave of Easter, on Thomas Sunday or Low Sunday, or now Divine Mercy Sunday. You know, Pope John Paul attached a plenary indulgence to those devotions. So in many ways, he made it come true. But lots of people would think, "Well, Our Lord told St. Fina, you know, do this on Divine Mercy Sunday and you're good, you know, through confession, your, your sins are forgiven, and then you'll get something like a plenary indulgence directly from heaven." I believe it, not because of St. Fina, but because of Holy Mother Church, because St. John Paul attached a plenary indulgence to those days. And you will hear, should I, shouldn't mention names, but Chris, I'll get in trouble with him now. He, he and others, they say things like, "Oh, the Divine Mercy promise is greater than a plenary indulgence." And it is, whatever it's promised, it is greater. But the only reason we believe it, I think, is because Holy Mother Church endorses it and has attached a plenary indulgence. So I would not go around saying it's a greater thing than a plenary indulgence. I just wouldn't. Likewise, with say, with Lourdes. Um, when Our Lady says to St. Bernadette, "I am the Immaculate Conception." We don't believe in the Immaculate Conception because of Lourdes. And it's not even like, "Oh, thank goodness Our Lady appeared and confirmed, you know, four years later, that what Pope Pius the Ninth did was right, you know, just in case he might have got it wrong in defining the dogma of the Immaculate Conception." That, that would be nonsense. We don't believe it because Our Lady said it. We believe it because Holy Mother Church has defined that dogma. And that, I know, I see, I see both of you nodding. But if I say that in a typical Catholic church, I think you'd get a lot of confused faces because what they hear is, "You're saying that Our Lady doesn't matter." And that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that private revelation. Okay, there's an important principle from St. Thomas that we need to bear in mind. Okay. It is whatever is received is received according to the manner of the recipient, or the mode of the recipient. Okay. So, for example, if I start reading out Alice in Wonderland to the two of you,

you will both come away with two different versions of Alice in Wonderland because it's interpretation. To hear me, you're already interpreting. Um, and a visionary, an authentic visionary, a real visionary, hears what he or she means is is limited by their intellect, shaped by their thoughts, their experiences, etc., their history. So, for example, in 1377, uh, the good Dominican saint, St. Catherine of Siena, uh, Doctor of the Church.

She had an apparition of Our Lady, and she asked her, "Are you the Immaculate Conception?" And Catherine, as a good Dominican, had her doubts about the Immaculate Conception. And it, it wasn't defined dogma in those days. Okay? And she, and Our Lady said to her, "I am not the Immaculate Conception." Okay? Now, this should not scandalize anyone because St. Catherine is a real saint. Our Lady is Our Lady. This was a real apparition. Well, what went wrong? Well, Catherine, as a good Dominican, heard what she wanted to hear. It was shaped by her experiences, her thoughts, the paradigms in her mind. So that's how she interpreted. Whatever is received is received according to the manner of the recipient. Now, so I think it's, um, foolish to treat any, um, self-proclaimed visionary as a direct line to God to ask them questions like, "Oh, ask, ask Our Lady, you know, what my neighbor's daughter, is she in heaven yet? Are there aliens? Are there UFOs?" You know, whatever. All sorts of things. I, I don't think we should be asking these kind of things. Um, because whatever answer you get, I think will be shaped by the visionary, by his or her experiences and thoughts and ideas, preconceptions, etc. Okay. It's, it's not, you're not going to get a pure verbatim heavenly message.

Okay.

Sorry. When you, so then when we're talking about like the, you know, it sounds very much like the defect, like the Church is, is going to defect at some point. Is, and how so, how do we?

Yeah, well, that's kind of the trajectory of what we're, what we're talking about.

Well, no, I mean, in, in as much as what I said, uh, lines up with what the Church teaches, you know, that there will be some massive apostasy near the end, final deception, then it matches that. But,

gates of hell will never prevail. So we,

the gates of hell will never prevail against Holy Mother Church.

So we have to. But that, and that's exactly what I think is so helpful about what Father Leon is saying, and what was the conclusion of our conversation with Professor Williams, when I said to him, "At the end of the day, you can say this, other people can say this, and when the Church approves, or what the Church says, is is what I'll go with, and that will always be the case." And instead of saying, "That means Our Lady doesn't matter," it's because Our Lady matters so much that that is why I take that position because this is Holy Mother Church. She is Magister, you know, she is our mother and teacher. And so, um, I think that's a really, really crucial message to hear. And Mark, you know, um, you've been reading Cardinal Manning, and there is this idea that, uh, Pope Benedict was very interested in this, and wrote a lot about it, and and drew on Tonius, who I know is a, um, a Donatist, he was a heretic. However, this idea of the weeds and the wheat growing, um, together, and leaving God to to sort that out. And one of the things that, and only he can do, and all we can do is be faithful. And one of the things that Mark and I increasingly recognize, and wouldn't you say, Mark, and we, we discuss this with one another, is how all we can do is hang on to the Church. That's all we can do. We can't be in the business of saying, um, "Has the Church apostasized? Have they got it right? Have they got it wrong? Um, which, which Pope can we believe? Which one do we have to ignore?"

Who's the real Pope?

Who's the real Pope? Who's not the real Pope? We simply, we simply and humbly, um, grow in holiness and and and be Catholic and, and I think trust the judgment of the Church because God wouldn't allow, um, wouldn't allow us to be

trusting. He casts a D. But at the same time, where there are those weeds, then he, he will do whatever God does with weeds in the, in the wheat field. No, it's not. In other words, it's, I feel a sense of, it's not for me to pluck out the weeds or to seek them out. Just, just be wheat if you can be wheat, and then he'll get rid of the weeds in his own way. You know, in the Arian crisis of the 4th century, there were only two major bishops who held firm. Athanasius in the East, and St. Athanasius and St. Hilary in the West. And even the Pope, you know, he lost his, his nerve and vacillated and was unclear and added to the confusion. So almost all the bishops of the world were led astray, and that was a serious heresy, the Arian heresy, you know, to say that the Son of God is, um, of like nature to the Father, rather than of the same nature, *homoousios*, you know, as opposed to *homoiousios*, which is where we get that thing about there's not an iota of a difference. There was an iota, and it made all the difference in the world. And, um, the laity, for the most part, held to the faith. I think Cardinal Newman writes about this a great deal. But, you know, when you talk about where was the Church in those days, who were the shepherds of the Church? It was Athanasius and Hilary and few else. I mean, St. Jerome writing shortly after says, "The whole world groaned to wake up and find itself Arian." So there will always be the, the Church will survive, and the Church will come to its senses. And, um, and in the end, Peter will turn and strengthen his brothers. But Peter might, might be a little bit useless, you know. And I mean, the real Peter, think about what Paul writes in Galatians, you know, he says, "If you do this, how do you expect everyone else to, you know?" So he saw Paul by Peter's behavior where he withdraws from eating with the, the Gentile converts. I mean, that might be, um, liturgical language. It might mean he might mean Peter withdrew from sharing communion with the Gentiles when the Jewish brethren, the representatives of James, came up from Jerusalem, you know. So Paul got Peter to be Peter again, to be faithful to being Peter. Um, Catherine dragged Peter back to Rome. She said, she said, "The stench of your papacy reaches me here in Siena." She said all sorts of terrible things to him, and also a lot of, a lot of sweet things, you know. She'd call him "my sweetest barber on earth, my sweetest father," like a baby language daddy.

And then he, when he did get back to Rome, and after she died, he said, "I should never have listened to that woman." He was furious, but it was too late.

That's Catherine's for you.

Yeah. Watch out. Yeah. So, so, uh, I'm not saying that we are in such times now. Maybe we are, maybe we're not. But what matters is we know the faith. It's in the Catechism. Okay. Um, and we know it, it's also in the tradition of the Church, the deposit of faith. We cling to that. And, um,

that is a bit easier said than done though, Father, to be honest with you, because what, when you've just spoken there, I can, I can almost hear people saying, "That's why we're holding firm to the SSPX because they are the true remnant, and the rest of the Church has apostasized. And Pope Benedict warned that there'd be a smaller Church, and and I want to be on the right side, and you're all on the wrong side going to the Novus Ordo." I mean, how does one even begin to, like, you can really see why people would conclude that with, in all sincerity, and would they be wrong to do so?

It's really interesting, like, you know, that we've just had the synodal group report number nine. I don't know if you, I can't believe that, you know, that the fact that that's happened at the same time when they're, they're basically saying they're going to excommunicate the SSPX because, for everyone watching, you know, everyone who cares, that looks like

a complete 180-degree turnaround, doesn't it? In, in what should be going on on both counts.

Yeah. It validates the SSPX, you know, that there is a state of emergency.

Can they not see this?

In fairness to the SSPX, I think there's a whole spectrum of views among them. So, I think you'd get those who say they just want to go to the traditional Mass. Um, they consider the Novus Ordo valid, but just, they, they might say, "We don't see it as fulfilling what Vatican II actually asked for in the reform of the liturgy." And that you can make a good case for that. I think, um, lots of people have said that before me, lots will say it after me. But that's, that's a different matter.

I know, then maybe you get that strand of quasi-sedevacantism with some of them. But, yeah, it is a difficult thing. We have to be faithful to the faith. But, uh, yeah, these are confusing times.

Yeah. It's like we have to be.

Really wish we lived in boring times. But if the faith, if it's true that the faith, like what I'm saying, is that's a really hard statement to make just for the ordinary Catholic. You've got to be faithful to the faith. Well, if being faithful to the faith means going along to the Novus Ordo Mass every day and wearing your bomber jacket and giving out communion as a lay person and having your girl serve on the altar and

blessing homosexual couples.

And then, and then I think, and then I really, I really struggle with this, Father. I know this isn't confession or spiritual direction, so I'll, I'll cut this, I'll cut this. But, but this, you know, to what ex, because if we just say, "Oh, it's about how your heart's disposed to Jesus," then, then in a sense, I mean, that's the Protestant, like, the Protestants will just say, "Look, I love Jesus, I've got a personal relationship with Jesus, I ask him for forgiveness, he forgives me, and I've got a personal relationship." And that's all that matters. And we know

that that, and that might be in all sincerity, but we know that you need the authority given by Christ to the Church. And they're asking,

I'll give you an example from, from Medjugorje, since that's what we were supposed to be talking about here. You know, in Herzegovina, this region of Bosnia and Herzegovina, this region, people are very traditional. Things, very few things have changed. You know, so tabernacles are all in the middle, altar rails are in most places, still there. Everyone receives on the tongue, kneeling, kneeling down if they can. There are no girl servers, certainly no extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, because I've heard from locals, you know, here in the region, many, many of the young have had to go overseas to work. So, you know, gone to Ireland or Germany or something.

And that's,

Yeah, absolutely scandalized. Said, "I couldn't believe it. I saw a woman walk into the sanctuary and she went up to the tabernacle and she opened it by herself and took out the ciborium." And, you know, they were scandalized.

Because you just wouldn't get any of those things here. You just wouldn't. And also the way they celebrate Mass, you can see they've kept a lot of, um, gestures and things from the old Mass. For example, the sign of peace. You know, when it comes to the sign of peace, what they do is the celebrant wishes the people peace, and then he exchanges it with the deacons on either side, and then the deacons pass it on to the everyone else on the other side, and it trickles down, which is the old, the old rite. But, um, a lot of things just stayed the same. I mean, here in, in the Balkans, if you say "Jesuit," it means someone who wears the habit, intellectual, utterly faithful, and orthodox with a small 'o'. Okay, that's what it means to them. So this is the culture that you're talking about here. You know?

Father Robert Mates, our friend Robert Mates, will be very glad to hear that because he's the, the good Jesuit that we know.

Okay. I, I only came across him recently. I saw a couple of his videos earlier this week. I never heard of him.

Yeah.

Not that I would could be expected to. I'm very ignorant.

Oh, everyone.

Well, you can't be watching everything. Although, Father, we're not going to let you off lightly. I did hear you make a little joke about how you fell into the hands of the evangelicals and, uh, uh, Medjugorje brought you back to Holy Mother Church, and you decided to be, you didn't want to be a heretic again, which is why you decided not to be a Jesuit and to be a Dominican instead.

I usually cough when it's. We better talk about Medjugorje at some point during this conversation.

Let's talk about Medjugorje.

Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. So, we had Professor Williams on, and he gave this particular perspective, and you've said yourself, you know, it's not, it's not approved, but neither is it condemned. And so, let's go to specifics. First of all, one of the things that people say is Our Lady is said to have, um, said, "All religions are equal," and this is problematic. I've heard you explain this before, but to our viewers today, how would you, um, explain to people who, who find that evidence that she's not really appeared or Medjugorje is a hoax?

Okay, I'm trying to remember the context. I think it was, um, a Serbian Orthodox. Okay. For people who are unfamiliar, in this region, there are three ethnicities. Okay? There's the Serbs, who are mostly Orthodox. And actually, at the time of the apparitions, Serbs who are Orthodox, okay? Croats, who are Catholic. And the, they didn't have a word for them at the time. They, they just called them the Muslims. Okay? And since the war, they've revived an old word for their ethnicity, Bosniaks. Bosniaks are Muslim. Okay? And, um, and that's it. You know, these, the, it's divided into three parts, a bit like Caesar's Gaul. So they, a Serbian Orthodox boy was cured miraculously, apparently, at one of the apparitions or something in the early days. And a Franciscan friar expressed surprise at this, apparently, or I don't know if it was a Franciscan, but certainly a Catholic priest expressed surprise. And then the message came from Our Lady. "It is you on earth who divide yourselves, but all religions are equal before my son." Something like this. Okay. And, uh, when the priests heard this, they were all quizzical, wondering, you know, is this syncretism going on? So they asked, uh, Marijana, the, uh, the girl who had received that message, and she said, "Yeah, yeah, remember what I said? Everything received is received according to the manner of the recipient."

Yes. So Marijana said, "Yes, all religions, uh, they're the same as us, Serbs and Muslims." Now, since when is Serb?

A religion? >> Okay, I know maybe Serbs are very proud of their nationality and might treat it as a religion, but that's not the point. Ser, she uses the word Serbian as though it's a religion. So in her mind, she's saying that ethnicity and religion, she doesn't know how to make the distinction. And these are things that lots of people don't know how to distinguish. I think I I think I'm better at making these distinctions because I grew up in Singapore where I can say my ethnicity is I'm Indian. But I wasn't born in India. I didn't grow up in an Indian culture. I don't have an Indian culture as such. I have a Singaporean culture. My nationality, my citizenship is Singaporean. My religion is I'm Catholic and specifically a Latin Catholic because a lot of my ancestors were Syrian Catholic and some were Orthodox. Okay. So, you know, you can you can make these distinctions.

Now, yourselves, for example, you call yourselves Irish, but you're clearly born in England, weren't you? Both of you? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, you're British subjects, are you? Yes. >> Yes. And but you still you would still say that you are ethnically Irish. >> Yeah. >> We have Irish heritage. Yeah. >> Irish heritage. But if someone >> got an Irish passport. Yeah. Go on. >> But if you were challenged and if have you c have you caught yourself sometimes saying that you're English? >> Yeah. Or British. Yeah. >> And you'd be happy with that as well. Okay. >> You know, in a culture like in Britain and Ireland, I mean, these things are more fluid. Um, and I think until we had more trouble with um, immigrants in Britain. I I think I wasn't so clear in my mind as well. I used to say I've become English, but I should say I'm British by nationality. No one can become English. I'm not white. I'll never be English. But I can become British. I can take citizenship or something, you know, whatever. Um but here in the former Yugoslavia all of these things were completely modeled. You know, to be of a certain ethnos to be of certain ethnic identity meant you identified with that religion as well. And that that alleged language they even say you know they speak Serbian or Croatian or Bosnian. It's the same language more or less. You know, it's it's like saying Canadian, Australian, and British English are three separate languages, I guess. But I'm probably offended lots of them by now by saying that, but it's a it's a hot button. It's a it's a contested issue here. It's a very sensitive matter. >> Sorry, we don't say that anymore, father. We say they're emerging issues now. >> Oh, emerging. Yes. Okay. >> For the people that >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Whatever they want to change at the Senate is an emerging issue. Is that right? >> Yeah. >> To be met with pastorality. >> Yeah. A dialogue. Absolutely.

Father, the Ruini Commission um reportedly it viewed the earliest alleged apparitions more favorably than the later ongoing messages. Do you personally see a qualitative difference between the early phase and then what came later? >> It depends what you mean by the early phase. I think the Ruini commission first of all it restricted itself to the first three weeks because it was in those three weeks that all six visionaries were together and after that point you never quite get all six together at any one time. >> Uh and also there was a lot of confusion. I mean the first three weeks at least there's documentation for more or less for what happened on each day and who said what and who reported what who recorded what etc. So they deliberately restricted themselves to those three first three weeks for that reason. And they found the first week um credible but I think they also found the second and third weeks mostly you know like a majority vote agreed I think uh if my memory serves correctly but then the Ruini report was never made public. It was never published. It was leaked online, but so we're reading something that allegedly came from the Ruini Commission, but we don't know. Okay. So, if they did agree to the first week, then uh it means Magaria has one apparition approved more than Fatima. Fatima is the you know, the first six months and the 13th of the month more or less. Although there was one of the months it was on a different day. So six apparitions are approved at Fatima and after that nothing u the f first Saturday devotions the consecration of Russia to the immaculate heart all those things they're not approved by the church and even because the church just never made a judgment on that because that was something that happened later with sister Lucia. Um but even when the church does approve of an apparition it doesn't mean it's endorsing the words as such. He's just saying we find it worthy of belief. This phenomenon is worthy of belief and we approve the the cult the cultus that you can go and have devotion to our lady of Fatima, carry her statue, etc. and sing a you know, the that sort of thing. So no apparition that enjoys approval enjoys approval of its messages as such. Okay, it's just that the messages don't contradict the faith. That's the Dutchman made.

>> So with Magikor, yeah, first week apparently the Ruini commissioner approved that first week. And then by the way with the thing with Mirana, I hope I made it clear that for Mirana as a visionary, she confuses religion and ethnicity like many people here even now. Even now. So when so when God says sorry when that when she reports that Mary said all religions are equal she may be just saying that God is sovereign over all things you said. So of course of course that's the case the Bosnians the Croats all people. Um but we've heard it as synretism. >> True. If God wants to heal an Orthodox boy why not? It's up to God. >> Yeah. >> I don't tell what God what to do. I can't I can't dictate. >> Yeah. You know we are bound by the sacraments but God himself is not restricted by the sacraments as such. Okay. He you know, like when we talk about extra ecclesia null salus outside the church there's no salvation. God himself can give grace >> outside the church. But as Vatican 2 said always impelling towards Catholic unity whatever that means. It's they're getting a nudge be Catholic. Yeah. Whatever grace they receive, they receive it because of the mission of the church. And you know, >> yes. >> Um, so the other thing that I really wanted to talk to you about was that some critics argue that many of the messages are like strikingly benile um and repetitive. like they almost resemble generic devotional exhortations rather than the kind of concentrated theological or prophetic density that we encounter when we think about Fatima or Lurs. Um, how would you respond to that? Do you know what I mean? You do know what I mean. >> Yes. Yes. Well, the visionaries brought this up with her themselves in the very first year. They said they told her, "Why do you always say the same things?" and she said excuse me for this but this is all I have to tell you be converted you know pray so Majori is big on conversion that seems to be the main message and that and queen of peace and live peace that's the and um if you look at any of the monthly messages because these messages still come will you find anything new by definition you will not because it's private revelation and if it's authentic it cannot not say something new. You cannot. I say to the pilgrims here, you know, if repetition is a sign of fakery, I ask them, I ask all the mothers in the church. I say, how many times do you tell your children to come down to dinner? How many times do you tell them to clean up after themselves or to clean their rooms just once? Because if you repeat yourself, you're obviously fake. If repetition is a sign of fakery, you know, and if our heavenly mother repeats herself, it means we are bad children. We need to do what she's asking of us.

The the messages of magoria are summarized here not by our lady herself, but by the the parish priest at the time of the apparitions when he he was thrown in prison by the communists. And while he was in jail, he kept he was thinking about how what are we going to do? you know, we're like facing this Goliath and you know, I mean, soon as he thought of Goliath, he thought, well, okay, little David triumphs over Goliath and he and he thought, okay, our lady gives us five stones, like David goes to meet Goliath with five stones and a slingshot. And he's the one who distilled these messages to these five so-called five stones um which are number one pray with the heart pray the rosary from the heart and here she wants the complete rosary joyful sorrowful and glorious mysteries uh she said this long before luminous were invented so you know so she asked for the complete rosary the one that she gave to St. Dominic more than 800 years ago. Okay. So, if you want to say the luminous, that's up to you. But she she's asked for joyful, sorrowful, glorious uh every day. And then and she once said, "Pray it with the heart here." And she's explained that a few times to the visionary. She she says you must do everything with the heart, you know, like go to confession and mean it. Sing and be praising God. Don't just say the words, etc. Okay. So pray with a heart means focusing focusing and meditating on the mysteries. This is a huge thing. You must meditate on the mysteries. That's actually a very Dominican thing as well.

And then the second stone is holy mass. She says make put the mass as the center of your life. Treasure the mass. Go early to mass. Prepare with silence before holy mass. Never leave mass without making a thanksgiving. And she said time and time again she says understand the importance of mass treasure the mass. She scolded one of the visionaries who was on her way to mass and the pilgrim stopped her to ask her various things. And at the apparition our lady scolded her and said you would have done better going directly to mass and not wasting your time chitchatting. Okay. So holy mass.

The third stone is holy bible. She says put the bible in a prominent place in the family house. Let everyone read from it. Read it. Root it in your heart and live by it. Read especially the gospels. Root it in your heart. And um she says, "Let even little children read from it." Now the context of this you have to understand. She said this at a time when the communists were still governing. If you had a Bible and if your children read the Bible, your young primary school age children, and they go to school and then they blab and say, "Oh, yeah, you know, mom and dad, we we got a this big fat book, it's called the Bible, and we were reading it, which children will do. They will blab." You could be in trouble, you know, as the the man the father would probably end up in jail and disappear, >> you know, in the communist era. And that happened to a number of families in the region and in the village I think. Okay. So it was a dangerous thing. And yet she said, "Put the Bible in a prominent place in the family house. Read from it." We're not very good at reading the Bible. Catholics. We're very lazy. No wonder Protestants think that Catholics don't know their Bible, you know. Um Yeah. And you sort of see it, you know, when you get readers at mass, they never know how to read out the um the introduction, a reading from, you know, and then they'll say all kinds of crazy things. A reading from one Thessalonians. No, you know, don't say that, you know, say a reading from the first letter of St. Paul to the Thessalonians or something like that. But, you know, whatever.

Um the fourth stone and now you want a novelty mark. This is kind of novel in that it's newish but it's an old new old thing. Fasting she said the fourth stone is fast on bread and water on Wednesdays and Fridays. Okay. And this is an old fast. It's in the dedicay. The early Christians did it. or the Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox still do this Wednesday, Friday fast. And we used to, but we stopped. I don't know when the traditional Latin Catholic fasting is Wednesdays, Fridays, and occasionally Saturdays on these days. But we somehow we seem to have forgotten the Wednesday, Friday thing. You you both said you're Irish in the Irish language. Remember Wednesday jicadian day of the first fast Friday jahinia day of the last fast jinth and then Thursdays you can eat on Thursdays jardin the day between the two fasts it's a good reminder now there were words in Irish for Wednesday Thursday Friday before these words um and the monks deliberately changed it sometime between the fourth and sixth centuries I think because fasting was such an important thing. And when you look at the Latin church, you know, fasting is absolutely pathetic in our church. >> What do we have? We have Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. And you can have one full meal and then two collations which added together mustn't add up to a full meal. You know, there was a Jewish friend that was trying to explain the Latin fast and he he scratched his head and he said, "Oh, I see. When you Catholics say fasting, you mean you don't eat in between meals. So renew fasting. Fasting is powerful. Fasting is important. Um we ought to fast. So here, you know, when I hear in the rest of the Catholic world when people say things like, "Oh, for the month of May, I'm going to pray the complete rosary." That's that's what I remember. the rest of the world is not in this magoria bubble. You know, pray the complete rosary every day. Every day of the year. What's just for the month of May? No, every day. Okay. And then they'll talk about, you know, Lent, you know, I should do something. And thanks to Exodus 90, maybe more men are doing something. But I I have no patience for this giving up of chocolate in Lent. You know, that's not a sacrifice. That is not a sacrifice. What? >> I do not believe >> on about that giving up chocolate. >> It's a sacrifice for me to have to listen to it. >> You know, in in the Latin church because we don't take fasting seriously. We don't take feasting seriously either. So the octaves are not proper octaves in the way they ought to be, you know. So, okay, Easter octave, fine. That's still like an octave. And there's no fasting on the Wednesday and Friday of the east octave. But uh and certainly no abstinence in the octave either. And then the Christmas octave, it's more you know in in the novasto it's I don't know. It's can you feast on the Friday in the Christmas octave? In England, we can, but only because the the English priests realized this was going to be a problem. And the the bishops actually issued a a ruling a few years ago on this and to treat the octave like an octave. >> And also the Pentecost octave, where did that go? That fell by the wayside, we should have these octaves back. Then Easter tide maybe we should be more strict like the Eastern churches and say fine if Easter's tide is such a joyful season no fasting in Easter but maybe maybe that would great on Latin sensibilities because we have had a tradition of fasting even in Easter tide I think >> father be just while before you move off fasting um there's a couple of things I think I think this is really important um You've spoken before about fasting being uh it's it's it's to focus on God and not these attachments and it can really help to overcome addictions you know uh alcohol addictions gluttony um sex >> self-control and selfmastery >> develop so and I I would say with the epidemic of pornography and so on um and the availability of everything on demand never was there a time when fasting is so important important to try and not be enslaved by these addictions, by these passions, by the instancy of everything. However, however, we've also spoken just a short while ago about the church and how at the end of the day, whatever we think is irrelevant, it's what the church says. So, we're living in a time now where the church doesn't seem to demand much from us in terms of fasting. yet uh yet we have never been living in a time where fasting is so needed. How do we make sense of that apparent tension? >> Think about when a lady said to sister Lucia, and I think this was after the the Fatima operations when she was in a convent, she said um today more souls go to hell because not enough people pray and make sacrifices for them. And here in Major she said things like uh I cannot convert people without your fasting. We need it. We need fasting so much so desperately because our spiritual lives you need the two wings of prayer and fasting. Without that there's something about sacrifice. You know every lent I was so used to hearing this as a lay person where the priest would tell us on Ash Wednesday. Oh it's not about giving up something. It's about taking on something good and start something good instead of giving up something. Well, you know, that's well and good, but I don't buy it. There's a power in sacrifice and we need to give up something that we something legitimate that's good that we're allowed. You know, if it's sinful, we have to give that up all the time anyway. But something that that's legitimate and allowable, we we make a sacrifice and say to Jesus, "I love you more than this. I love you more than food and drink and whatever comforts. You know, the children of Fatima were so horrified by the vision of hell that they did really harsh penences. You know, they practically dehydrated themselves. They they wore uncomfortable um ropes around their waists and this and that. In our lady had to intervene and say, "Take it off at least when you sleep." But yeah, we It changed them, the spirit of penance.

>> Mark, where does that sit with you? Because Mark and I often have this back and forth about he says, "I'm a Mediterranean Catholic." And then he says, "Oh, you're an Irish Catholic." Because I'm like, "Oh, someone said to me the other day, you can eat this guilt-free." I said, "I can't eat anything guiltree. I'm an Irish Catholic." So, you know, I tend towards the uh offer it up and sackloth and ashes. And Mark says, "Nah, be a Mediterranean Catholic, drink wine." So, you know what? Um, what do you think? >> I'm sure I'm sure there are people listening thinking that I'm promoting a spirit of misery and self-reroach and all that sort of thing. I'm not >> as you can see, I'm actually quite happy about fasting. I think fasting is marvelous. >> Yeah. >> And I think I I I don't know where I lie, but it would be a blend of both of you. I think >> you know where to be >> where to be joyful. >> There's got to be a place for both things. But I suppose like the my reticence or my dislike of the Irish Catholicism that I sort of grew up with was that it was all locked, dry toast, walking up mountains in your barefoot and you know there there isn't any time for >> your joy to enjoy anything and that's you know like that sort of >> it's very easy when we're fasting to feel sorry for ourselves but I I constantly remind myself I'm feasting on Jesus. M >> in doing this >> and it's it's something beautiful you know it's not something to it's not you're not torturing yourself you're not you're not going to fade away just because of a day's fasting you know there are lots of times that we have to fast or for example you know say someone in your family gives birth and you're rushing to the hospital and you're you know you don't have time for breakfast or lunch or dinner and you don't even notice you're hungry >> because you're so happy that this child is here, this new baby. You know, that's the spirit of fasting we should have. We're so happy that the baby Jesus has come for us that we don't notice that we're hungry. I I advise people to pray for the grace to fast and get on with it. But certainly, I wouldn't want what you're describing, Katherine, this spirit of self-rrimation and misery and doom and gloom and all that sort of thing. I wouldn't identify with that. I've never I don't know what people mean by Catholic guilt. Every time I felt guilty, I was guilty. >> Yes. Exactly. >> Just Just like every time I felt hungry, I was hungry. You know, so >> the other thing is that the fast can in my experience when I fasted very well and and I pray for the grace to to do so. Um, it has completely opened up a a true sense of appreciation for everything God gives. You know, it's it's easy to say, "Bless us, Lord, and these thy gifts," while you're taking your first mouthful, you know, uh but but you don't really appreciate it because you've got another 10 in the fridge. And but when you fast, you and and you before you take that bite, you really thanks be to God that I have any food at all. Thanks be to God that for the farmers and for the animals, you know, it does increase that sense of gratitude, doesn't it? >> Yeah, it does. It does. I'll never forget this one time I was in the army and we were out on maneuvers for the whole day and I forget me and this other chap, we were we had some duties to do. So, we were late. So, we missed lunch, dinner, and what they used to call night snack. And we were starving. I was I was only 55 kilos in the army. Okay. I was super skinny. I wiry um zero body fat and I ate like a pig. I tried you had to you had five minutes at meal times and you you had to wolf down as much as you could and it was never enough you know. So you're always hungry anyway, but on that day we were extra hungry and we this is very naughty as Singaporeans to break the rules. We we snuck out of the barracks that night and went to the enormous um wheelie bins outside and we found the remains of the night just chucked there. No one had eaten it and it wasn't anything special. It was you know this modern processed sliced bread probably filled with all sorts of chemicals and a tin. This is disgusting. A tin of craft processed cheese. Absolutely revolting stuff. But to this day, it was the best meal I ever had in my life. I was so hungry. We just took the slices and scooped up as much cheese as we could and edited. I don't know how much we had, but we were starving. And I've never tasted anything so delicious. I made the mistake of saying this at at a dinner party once, and my hosts were like, "Oh, we shouldn't have bothered them. But so yeah, you know, we ought to say grace with that sort of gratitude, but most people have never experienced real hunger. >> True. Well, would do you want to should we wrap it up, Katherine? Or that's an air and a quarter. I I >> you talked about one thing I think that people do tend to bring up is >> uh you can't well two things. One, you can't go to an unapproved apparition site. You have to wait for approval. >> And the other thing is they say Magoria was condemned by its local bishop. So maybe I should say a little bit on both those things. >> Yeah, father. Yes, please. >> I've got a question about the local bishops. If you want me to start, shall I open it like that? >> Well, you're meant to be unscripted. >> Yeah. Well, I wrote some stuff down, you know. So, there's been >> partially scripted. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Part, >> you know, he's going to the script. So, >> okay. >> Father, there long been concerns surrounding ecclesiastical disobedience and historic tensions between the local Franciscans and the dasis and bishops. How much do you think that conflict complicated discernment from the beginning? I think it has everything to do with it. So here there's all sorts of problems here. The region was under Muslim rule for 500 years. The Ottoman Turks, the the Turks only allowed the Franciscans to minister here. They persecuted them. They killed quite a number of them as well, but they in general they tolerated them. Um I suppose a bit like Catholic England, you know. um you might be able to minister as a priest, but if you got caught, that was it. And then when the hierarchy was restored in the late 19th century, so the dasis was created and the secular clergy founded um the Franciscans tended to dominate and also in the in the local mindset, the only real priest is a Franciscan priest. This is how many of them think you know even because under the Turks they even got used to you couldn't say the word father because then you'd betray he was a priest so they would say uh uh uyak is that the word I think so I hope I'm not butchering it it's means mother's brother the uncle on your mother's side okay so they called him uncle and uh even to this day they use that Okay. They don't tend to say father, you know, like because the friars are friars, they call them fra. So even me, they realize I'm a frier, they call me fraleon. Um, which in England, we, you know, the distinction, the secular clergy, we'd call them sir and the religious clergy, we'd call them father, but that all that has been blurred. Uh, in English, certainly. Anyway, so um the dasis came into conflict with the Franciscans, vice versa. They demanded more parishes. The Franciscans dragged their feet, eventually surrendered more parishes. This is all in the early 20th century leading up to the 60s. And then the dasis didn't have enough priest. So the Franciscans triumphantly supplied some priests to the dasis to look after those parishes. So you know there was there was the bad blood. It's known as the Herzoginian affair. this the conflict between the Franciscans and the secular clergy. And then in the early 70s, another instance of this conflict erupted with what's known as the Master affair where the Bishop Jeanich, he's the bishop who was in charge uh when the Magori phenomenon began. So I think around 1973 he basically reassigned to himself a huge portion of the city of master to the cathedral which was uh which was the Franciscan parish and then that started yet another conflict. Um so it's in that context that Magori begins. Okay. So Bishop Janich comes here uh on he comes in July. Now Magori began on the 24th of June was the first sighting of our lady. 25th of June is the first apparition with the six visionaries who are the current visionaries. And in July he comes here and he says he's very positive about Magigoria and he even says the children are clearly not lying and and he says to the priest uh to the parish priest you know GPA is here gosp our lady is here things like that and he said he he makes three visits in that period July and August and he's very positive about this the Franciscans were actually a bit takenback because they initially thought the thing was a a a hoax. They just they just thought we have to stand back and see how this plays out. And they even told the bishop, you wisely took the position of Gamaliel in the acts of the apostles. You know, if this is from God, it'll survive. If it's not, it'll fizzle out. You know, why did you take a side? You know, but but he takes a side. And then sometime in August, the bishop, Bishop Janic, and Father Yo, who's the parish priest here at the time, are taken by the Udba, the UDBA, UDBA, that's the the local version of the KGB in those days, taken away to Saro, this the state capital. And um for a few hours, Father Yo doesn't really talk about it. He says he they put pressure on him to uh to speak against Medigora and he just thought well I'm not going to listen to communists and ignored them and he carried on and then on August 17th he was arrested and thrown into prison you know and for and sentenced for three years for collaborating with foreign agencies and all sorts of things and undermining the state. Apparently the bishop after this excursion to Saro then becomes more circumspect about Magigoria and says openly to some of his priests. He says it's either me or Magoria and I will not go to prison and then he turns against Magoria and then he says things like I knew it from the start Magoria was fake. you know like six years later when he preached here in this church he says I knew it from the beginning but he had just said the children are not lying I mean right at the beginning he said the children are clearly not lying so I think this is the big problem where he instead of just standing back and watching and waiting he throws his lot in with magora at the beginning and then does a complete vault fast 180° um and is against it and just so confusion So so much so and then he has there's there's a lot of letters exchange and it's all in this book if you can see this magoria as seen by local bishops Jean and Perich okay this is written by father Ian Juganjich Duganjich who is still alive he's here in Major lovely man a real gentleman a scholar a very holy man and he was on the bishop's commissions both commission missions. He had he had two commissions to investigate Magigoria and um it reveals a very sorry tale. You know, I think most of it was known anyway, but Father Ivan just published the letters as well, some of the letters anyway, showing the exchange of what was going on and what people said and and uh the confusion show sowed by u Bishop Janich unfortunately. So much so that the Vatican intervened and removed the competency to judge Magori away from the local ordinary and kept it for itself. It was relegated to Rome rather than to for the local ordinary to judge. Okay. So when people say the the local bishop condemned it, well yes, he condemned it after first endorsing it, which also he shouldn't have done, you know. So anyway, the right to judge Magigori was taken away and kept by Rome. So during the war here in the around between 93 sorry 92 and 95 is when the war happened in in Bosnia and Herzuggova. Um Jeanich had retired um and he was replaced by Bishop Radco Peric and Rad Coperich um from the beginning was against Medigore. So at least he was consistent you know and and in many ways Bishop Peridge did good things for Magigoria you know he he shut down all the you know people were coming from Italy and elsewhere and religious orders building little chapels and setting up tabernacles and Bishop Parish just said hello you haven't got my permission you know get out and shut your chapel so in many ways he purified Magigoria he he got rid of um the questionable and perhaps seemingly radical elements. You know, the people who had just come here, you you had all sorts of people coming. Everyone wanted to claim Majora for themselves. You know, the the charismatics, the new ages, the maybe even the traditionalists to a certain extent, but you know, everyone wanted to claim it, but no one succeeded. And Bishop Perich in 97 he wrote in a journal uh French journal Fami Creten the Christian family um where he he says it's not just my opin you know you know the judgment of the church on on an uh on a matter of private revelation comes in three categories and it's like I always think of them as traffic lights uh red amber green Okay. So green is constant supernatural. This is it is established as supernatural. So that's approval. Okay. And then red is constant non supernatural established as not supernatural. So this is rejection is it's okay. And then there's a middle category nonconstant de supernatural. It is not established as supernatural. So this is the middle category and uh in 1991 sorry I misspoke. I said initially when when um Rome took away the right of the local ordinary it entrusted it to the Yugoslav bishops to judge Magigori. So the bishops met in 1991 just before the war in Croatia in in Zada and they issued the Zada declaration where they they went for the middle category amber. We don't know you know constat non constat supernatural he said we leave it open we need more information um it was mostly because they were divided the archbishop of split fran franic was very much for me the local bishop was very much against it janes was against it so and um so they went for this middle middle category for whatever reason and left it open and just thought okay let people come but they can come as private pilgrims but you cannot a priest or bishop cannot organize a pilgrimage and come to medigoria like this you can come along as the they're chaplain but you can't organize one and you mustn't presume that uh magore is uh definitely supernatural okay so those are the conditions with zadar and then all that changed in 2017 I under Pope Francis where you could organize public uh pilgrimages you didn't have and bishops could come as well uh freely and without worrying about the status of magore and then also the whole system this um traffic light system as I call it the red amber green system was overhauled uh with the new DDF under Cardinal Fernandez. So the highest approval the church now will accord any apparition site from the DDF is nhil obstat nothing standing in the way okay and that doesn't signal oh yes we believe that it's of supernatural origin it's just saying we don't object to it but that's the highest they're willing to go in theory I think the pope can intervene and still grant a constant superit although they didn't say that but anyway so currently magori enjoys the highest approval that the church will give which is nil obstat.

>> Fair enough. >> Yeah. So that's kind of like a part of the history of what went on here but it's very complicated and very ugly. I didn't I I'm a bit reluctant to say anything about the bishops and to say anything negative about any bishop but I think with Janich certainly I think it you can say it's a mistake that he endorsed Magigor right at the beginning and then completely flip-flops the other way and and I think Rome saw that obviously and hence removed the the right to judge and gave it to the Yugoslav bishops and then after that when Yugoslavia fell apart it was reserved to the bishop of Basnia and her governor. There were only three of them and then later Rome intervened directly and just gave its own judgment in 2017.

>> So fundamentally like at the end of it all we're saying it's up to you, isn't it? It's private revelation. It's up to you whether you want to you don't have to believe in it. It's completely up to you. But there's lots of positive things happening. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I wouldn't be here if I didn't if I hadn't seen such things. lots and lots of you know I some people say look you know medor there's all these healings and conversions because people go there with faith and some people people even uh dumb it down to saying you come away feeling a little more uh with a spring in your step you know as though it's like some kind of spiritual holiday um a religious equivalent of going on a Caribbean holiday or something like that you know coming back smiling The reality is if you come here and I've been many many times to pilgrimages in Lords and in Walssingham in some ways it's similar to to Lords you know you'll end up fighting with the Italians when they when they come in and steal your seats cause chaos but no um what you will see is people bringing their raw humanity here all sorts of things but one thing you cannot escape is the peace there's an overarching overab I don't is overabiding a word it is now overabiding sense of peace that invades your soul almost by osmosis or something there's something here that goes on and um you know many of the opponents of magori I think they imagine there's some evil cabal that's uh orchestrating all this they you know that sort of thing I think you're giving the Franciscans too much credit or whoever they blame I mean if you come here there is no organization yeah >> who who is pulling the strings how do you arrange all these things to take place it's mad if you look at the lives of the visionaries I mean it's horrible they're like animals in a zoo that people gawk at and poke and fraud and demand that they perform for them, you know, or something. And it's absolutely horrible. And then and of course, and they want to load them with uh prayer requests, you know, don't don't forget to, you know, pray for my Matilda when you see our lady this evening and this and that. You ever going to remember these hundreds of requests? But and you and the visionaries, all six of them are so unlike each other. They have nothing in common. with each other apart from being from the village. The only thing that bonds them is our lady. Really, you can you can see that. And um and you see the differences in people's lives. The conversions there are thousands of I hund must be hundreds of thousands of conversions by now. But conversions all the time non-stop. When people write to me and say, "Oh, you know, I'm so worried about my daughter or son. I'm bringing them on a pilgrimage. You know, what do I do?" I just say, "Just come. just bring them here and leave it to our lady. You don't have to worry about it. You know, attend the evening program. You know, in the evening they have um the rosary followed by mass followed by adoration. I said just come bring them to that and climb the hills, the two hills, apparition hill and cross mountain. You know, make the stations of the cross, pray the rosary every day. Just just do these things. Don't worry about anything else. Our lady will do the rest. And she does. There's so many conversions, so many healings. Um, you see, for me, what's more, what makes a deeper impression is the conversions and the deliverance from addictions. Those kinds of things are I think are fantastic. They're wonderful. um things that I do see that I don't think are of that same category, but these are this they're different because these are unlike conversions, these are empir empirically verifiable physical healings. >> So cancers, you know, there was lady Morin Fitzgerald, she had metastases all over. She was skinny as anything, yellow as a buttercup. Her liver was gone. She was on her last legs, literally. And today she's well thanks to our lady of metagoria. Um young lady from Singapore with pancreatic cancer. Usually you die very quickly with pancreatic cancer completely healed. The other day a lady from Derry who had lymphoma it's gone. Now all I'm telling you all this anecdotally. I said to all of them I said please will you for the love of God bring all your medical results and give them to the bishop here. Okay. There's no medical bureau here unlike Lords. So when people say there are no medically verified miracles of Magigoria, there's no one to verify them. So they need to be verified and people need to submit these things, you know, because the other sort of things, the anecdotal things like uh our lady cured me of um I don't know you say someone would say our lady cured me of depression and she did actually she cured me of depression overnight here in 2010. How do you prove that empirically? It's very hard. You know, it's all subjective. Uh and you know, if you've never had depression, you don't really know what an awful, awful disease that is, terrible illness, >> you know. But she cured me overnight here. I was desperate. I was at an apparition and u I just said to her, "You have to do something." I was a parish priest in a in a certain town in England which we shall not name and I was very very depressed and I went to see my GP and he said father I'm not surprised you're depressed because your life is absolute poo that's not the word he used but okay and I thought that's no help you're not supposed to say that as my GP and then he put me on anti-depressants and uh to give it just to show you how depressed I was I don't even know what They were because I was so depressed. I couldn't care less. I didn't even look at the bottle. I just took them. I remember they made me carick. I I could probably narrow it down to what it was on basis of the symptoms. I went to Walssingham. A friend of mine was so worried about me. He dragged me to Walssingham in January. Um which is a big mistake. Everything is shut more or less. Um I was there for a few days and nothing happened. uh I went to Lords and uh begged for help. Nothing happened. And then here in Metagoria, I didn't I didn't think anything would happen, but I I just said to our lady, "You have to do something or I'm going to resign." And the next day, overnight, I was cured. You know, because with depression, you uh there's like a in the when you wake up in the morning, you have a few seconds of forgetfulness. Um, and you think you're back you're not you're you are your normal self and then it's like a gray curtain that descends over everything and suddenly you can't see colors or smell anything and you can't taste anything and you just don't care anymore. And so I kept waiting for that gray curtain but it never came. So, at first I thought, "Oh, well, you know, I'm here. I'm eat living the Mediterranean lifestyle, have Mediterranean diet and olive oil and grilled fish, you know, and and whatever. That that must be why I'm feeling so chirpy." I thought, "Wait, as soon as I get back to old blighty, you know, I'll be miserable again." And then I came home and it didn't come back. So, and after a month I realized, gosh, I was cured, but I was just so petrified of it coming back. You see, I waited for a month before I even believed it myself. Now, those kind of things you can't verify easily or you can't really I mean, what do you submit? There's no X-ray or blood test that's going to show you used to have depression and now you don't.

>> But those that can be verified, we do need people to not not just say this anecdotally, but show their results. There was another there was a lady from Northern Ireland or the north of Ireland I should say. Una I call her Una two sticks. She she had two sticks to walk and she was completely cured here thanks to our lady. Now she's known as Una no sticks and uh I I hope she submits all her medical results as well. But we need those sort of things. But but for me the the greater miracles are the conversions and then also confessions. You know if you sit down for confession here you won't get away for hours hours and hours. Um when I was a younger priest I and had more energy and enthusiasm I I remember hearing confessions for six seven hours you know until you need the L and then go off and then come back and hear more confessions. the quality and depth of confession. There is a difference here. Something is happening here that >> isn't happening in England. It's not happening in even in Walssingham. God bless the blessed Walsingham. Uh it's not I don't think it's happening in Lords. I I went to Lords so many times. I don't remember confession figuring so prominently in our pilgrimage, you know, and um you had to make an effort to go into that little building where you could find confession and there were certain hours for certain languages and all that sort of thing. I mean here priests hearing confessions in every every language going you know I I hear confessions in um Croatian sometimes French and Italian if because there are so many of them and more recently I actually start I started putting up a sign for malayalam because uh I I can speak that language but um I only learned it from my parents and grandparents so initially you know the I didn't know the words for sins you And maybe I speak a kind of baby Malle Allen, but so I've learned a lot of vocabulary since, you know, so it's great. Something is going

on, >> right? We're gonna come. Should we go, Catherine?

>> Well, this is the thing, Father Leon. Watch this space. Let's wait until the camera stops rolling and we'll tell you part of our future plans, which may mean that we see you there.

>> Come. It doesn't matter. Even if you come here and you decide this is a hellhole or a cesspit that's up to you, you know, but >> there's nothing stopping you coming. You've got the nhil lobster as you said. It's not as if you are it's not as if Catholics watching feel they're doing something wrong if they go to Mugori. And also, you know, if people wait for 100% approval, >> that 100,000 would never have seen the miracle of the sun in Fatima, the the first few miracles in Lords would never have happened and there'd be no one there to witness it if people had to wait for approval, you know, just come >> because part of that approval is that cultus, as you said, that springs up. So it's, you know, which >> in a sense you can't wait because if you wait and there's nothing then it won't come.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I remember Robert Nent coming. I can't remember if I met him when he was here that maybe I did but um you know and I'd heard him speak about the old mass and all that and I know most most tradies are not fans of Majora. there's a small subset of tra traditional-minded people who come here and they have to keep their identity secret lest all the other tradies persecute them. So you know and u in fact I was speaking to one of them just yesterday uh a priest who who only says the alright mass and all that and he he said he told me he said father I was convinced magoria was from the devil. I came here reluctantly. I only came because it was a free trip and I wanted to prove to myself it really is from the devil and I was praying all these prayers and to protect myself and this that and the other. But he had a massive conversion of heart here. He said some a gentleness was given to him. He said before that he believed all the right things. He said all these prayers blah blah blah but something was missing. And I I know what he means because you know before I mean even though I I told you I saw a lady when I was 20 as a priest I think I was orthodox with a small O and sound with a capital S. And I did everything by the book, you know. I we had I introduc when I was parish priest, we introduced more. We had adoration three times a week. I mean with benediction we had confessions. Um do we have it every day? I think we had it every day and uh on Saturdays twice and then and Sundays be as well and and for two hours at a stretch on Saturdays. You know, we we were like a cathedral in that city. you know, most people came there for confessions right smack in the middle of the city center and um we introduced novenas, perpetual novenas, all sorts of divine mercy. They wanted to say the chapter. I said great, go ahead. You know, and I supported all these things. But I was like many priests. I had been pushed into becoming a pen pusher and a bureaucrat and you know facilitating meetings and all that sort of thing. All that nonsense, >> you know. I'm sure there's a role for all these things, but they must not dominate a priest's life.

>> A midora restored the heart of it to me. Um, and I get many of the Dominicans, you know, privately come to me with similar experiences as well. I don't think they'd say it amongst all the brothers, but you know, privately they'll tell me they say there something was missing. you know, I I was doing all the right things, but in many ways, I had been reduced to going through the motions, >> which can happen to many priests. So, actually, one of the things here in Magigori, one of my main ministries over the past few years was actually to depressed and broken priests and seminarians because there's so many of them.

>> Yeah, that's really nice. >> Thank you, Father. It's been absolute joy speaking to you. I really enjoyed it and it's a great pleasure and >> very interesting uh to hear this perspective on Magigori. You know, I'm sure our our viewers will be very interested to hear um the stories. Thank you very much.

>> You're welcome. Thank you. >> Yes. Well, I just second that, father. It's wonderful to have had you join us in conversation and I it has been 1 hour 42 minutes. Um but but um I don't I'm sure the people watching and will will agree uh I was gripped by everything that you were sharing with us and I just feel that this conversation has been um really interesting and uh enlightening for me as well because not having ever been to Majugori Mark and I are coming at it with we're just hearing different things. So what it's done is it's made me want to go now. So that's what we will do. We will we will see you there. I think >> yeah it's be it's beautiful here it's >> I'm blessed to be here and to have ministered here and still continue ministering here >> I think for many priests as well it's a renewal of their priesthood you know >> and return to the essentials when I became priest all I ever wanted to do was celebrate mass and hear confessions and that's what I get to do in magore >> yeah that's wonderful yes uh very difficult for for priest who who struggle. So may perhaps this is a message to them as they're if they're watching this um maybe known only to God but to to perhaps find some strength there in magori. Well father I hope you'll join us again. Even as you were speaking there were a few things that you mentioned and I thought people have contacted us to say could you have father so and so on to to talk about this. So there's a few topics I think it would be great to hear you uh speak on if you'll join us another time. Sure, of course. They'd be glad to.

>> Wonderful. Thank you. And do do visit um I've written down here marytv.tv. I hope that's the correct address. And you can uh >> uh see more of of what Father is doing over there. But for now, thank you for watching. Thank you to Father for joining us. And uh do please visit our own website, catholicunscripted.com, where you can if you're able to pick up a subscription, which helps support this work and enable us to have many more great conversations like this. Okay. Thank you, father. And um we will see you again another time. >> God bless.