Transcription
Hi, I'm Jim Fielding and welcome to Jim Fielding and Friends, a podcast where we explore what it truly means to live and lead with authenticity, kindness, and impact. Each episode brings together leaders who inspire me, people who lead with heart, break barriers, and redefine success. If you're looking for honest, insightful, and thought-provoking conversations, pull up a chair. Let's talk. Love. Nobody's letting go. Chosen family.
Hello everyone, all my kind and beautiful human beings. Uh, I am so excited for this edition of Jim Fielding and Friends. This is one of those combo episodes where we're going to talk about the Leading with Pride book club at Altora, but also, I would have had our guest on this podcast eventually regardless of the fact that they also wrote an amazing book. So, it's perfect that they did both. And this is the December Leading with Pride book club selection, which is perfect for gift-giving. Hint, hint. Um, and here it is, Goat Wisdom. And I am thrilled to re- uh, to bring on board here one of the authors, Dr. Brent Ridge. Brent, thank you so much for being here.
Oh, so good to be here, Jim. I'm looking forward to it.
Your, I mean, your book, your life, we're going to get into it. Like, it has been so inspirational. But I, when I did Leading with Pride Book Club, as you know, it's hard to find a lot of leadership and inspirational books written by the community for the community. And it's not just for the community, the same way my book is. I, it's not only for, uh, the queer community to read, but and, and when yours popped up, I was like, "Thank God." So, I'm just gonna be honest with everybody because, yes, we're videotaping and we're recording. I am like a fan of Brent and Josh's. And it started on reality TV. He knows this already because,
I think it was 2011, right, when Beakman, the fabulous Beakman boys came out. And, um, I had heard your name before because you had worked at Martha.
And then all of a sudden you were like on my TV and let's face it, a pioneer in reality TV. I mean, 2011 is a lifetime ago.
Um, and I loved that show because it was about your journey and you were so honest and so vulnerable and all that. Then, okay, they were on Amazing Race and I think that was like 2013 and I was a huge Amazing Race fan and, but I never did the research before. I would just turn on Amazing Race when they told me it was time to turn on and then I see you guys like running around the world and I mean, it's not a spoiler because it's 2013. Then they won on top of everything else. So, yes, I'm an official fan, Brent. You know,
You know it all. But I'm more a fan of what you guys have built and the journey. So, the fact that you put it into a book.
Um, and I guess that's really my first question is why the book? Why now? Like, what made you think, okay, now is the time to write the book with everything you have going on? Like, why write the book?
Yeah. Well, a, a couple of reasons. One, I think we're at a particular stage in the growth of our company and we wanted to make sure that all of the stories and the architecture that we put into our company was collected place.
Because we're, you know, we have had this company for 16 years. A lot of, you know, things have gone down and so we wanted it all in one place so that, um, you know, even years from now when we are retired or whatnot,
The origins are there and so people can always reference it. So we wanted that. And then, um, also when it comes to entrepreneurship, we just felt that over the past decade there had been too much emphasis on too few, um, representations of success. Because if you look at social media, really the only things that you are fed are either tech billionaires or people trying to sell you a course who say they've made a lot of money. You have no idea if they have or not.
Right?
Or like an influencer sitting in a model of a private jet, you know, trying to.
And so we're like, you know what, those are all fine. Like, if you want to aim for any of those things, that's fine.
But we wanted to write a book that says, you know what, you can be successful starting a business on Main Street in your community that gives back to your community and we wanted to give a representation of a business that did that and is successful and inspire other people who want to do the same thing.
You know, it's so funny when you were saying that, I realized now reading it and then I went back and reread parts getting ready for this. It is a brand bible. Like, it is it is a, it's a leg, I can see it being a legacy document. Like, if you go to work at Beakman,
Like, read the book, right? Because it's culture and it's your ethics and it's your morals and your values. Like, it really is a brand bible for any of us that have worked
In branded environments. Like, it's just a long-form brand bible basically done in a very storytelling way. A storytelling way that anybody can learn from. And what's so funny that only someone like you with your history and and your knowledge would would pick that out because obviously we could have gone to many different publishers to publish this book.
And we said no, we want to go with Harvard Business Review because we want the gold stamp of approval, say no, this is the brand who did it the right way and this is what we can all learn from. So.
Well, what I, and I love, first off, we love Harvard Business Review. I, I did not, I hope to publish a book with them someday. My first book was not with them, but I did a couple of their podcasts and I actually went in person and spoke with them and it was unbelievable. And what I also love,
Because when you're talking about social media and the feeds and, you know, it's basically sanitized and all that kind of stuff. I mean, this is a story about building a, a brand and building a company from product, like physical product and not,
I'm sorry, AI, right? It's not, it's not fake.
It's not, it's not like you're, you know, on the back of some green screen. Like, I, I remember even in, in the television show when you guys were like,
You know, getting out to the goats, right? And like going through the muck and like shearing the goats and milking the goats and all the things we were doing to the goats and, um, and that's real. And I, you know, probably showing my age and my background, like I love product, but I love quality, innovative, differentiated product that gives back and has a sense of community and you guys check so many of those boxes.
Well, and it's so funny that you talk about that and you brought up the reality TV because to us, those are the receipts, right? Because so many brands are like now, you know, they, people sit in the boardroom and they're like, "Oh, we need to hit this target and these people and this the demographic."
And, um, and they're, you can have a ve, I would say a very good business, a successful monetarily successful business,
Sure,
But you're not going to really build a legacy business that way. And I think for us, um, we had the great fortune, we didn't know we were gonna have, you know, at the time of doing all this documentation of our brand, um, through reality TV, through our Amazing Race, you know, Q, like we just have layers upon layers of authentic storytelling and those are the receipts and they live forever.
They do. And you have assets. I mean, besides receipts, they're assets. Like,
And you don't have to fake them, right? I mean, they are like,
To your point, it's like a living video library.
Yeah. I guess one of my questions, I'm gonna jump around in my questions, but like, did you feel like, I, I, I think it was a great time for the book, but have you ever felt in these last 16 years like, okay, we're good. Like, we're at the right time. Like, not we're done because I think I know you well enough to know you're not done. But was there a time where you kind of woke up and you and Josh looked at each other and were like, this is good. Like, like, we've arrived, I guess, is what I'm asking. You know?
Uh, I don't know if any founder ever feels that way.
I know. I knew you were going to say that.
Because, you know, you're always trying to do something or you've got more responsibility or whatnot. Um, did we ever feel like we had met? Yeah, you know, I'll tell you.
Um,
And this, we talk a little bit about this in the book, but, um, you know, we were about, I would say, eight year, maybe nine year, nine into the company and, um, we were getting ready to have our big nationwide rollout in Ulta Beauty and, um, you know, so that necessitated that we really look at the brand because it had grown so organically and was just kind of all very natural but very all over the place because that's how brands grow. Are kind of living things.
And so we said, okay, we, we have to kind of really crystallize our brand because when you're in Ulta, you have three feet of space.
And for people who have never seen the reality show, never read any of the books, how do you communicate what this brand is about in three feet of space and like five words, you know?
And so, um, Josh has this great saying, like, you can never, um, you can never really see the mountain when you're standing on it, right?
And so we hired this, um, outside team, um, to come in to just like hear our story, hear how the company had developed, see where we are at the moment and just outside perspective on what, what has made this company so special to so many people like Jim Fielding. Why does Jim love Beakman?
Yeah. And, yeah,
And so they heard the story, you know, going back, you know, from Farmer John, we took in this, you know, homeless goat farmer.
Um, and,
We were in this tiny village of 500 people in rural upstate New York. They helped us wrap these bars of soap around a dining room table. Like, they just, and they immersed themselves, like they came to Sharon Springs and spent a week there with us on the farm just trying to, you know, figure out was the magic. And, um, at the, um, I think on day three, the head of the, um, of the organization, the company's called Tether, um, and they're a branding agency and the, the founder is Stanley, uh, Hayesworth. And he, he said, "You know what? You're not a beauty company. You are a company about kindness." And that right there, it like, it was like all of the pieces falling into place because of course, we would have never said at the time, oh, we're a company about kindness, like, because we could, but when you look at how we built the company, who we brought into the company,
How we, how we appeared on the fabulous people, how we appeared on the Amazing Race, we were a company that was about putting kindness out into the world. And once that he gave us that one word, it was,
And then we immediately saw, here's how we incorporate that into every communication that our brand does from here on out.
That's it's unbelievable. And I love, I mean, because the other thing I think in reading the book, I mean, the other word you guys have been is authentic, right? So I think it's like,
Authentic and kindness, right? Which is where I'm trying to spend my time is authenticity and,
You're doing a good job. You're doing a great job.
Thank you. Thank you. But I've had to add the word radical to kindness, too, because I think the world is so,
Unkind right now. We can get into that, but I think we have to,
Like, almost go farther to the end of kindness. And I think I think the mutual friends we share, like Mindy Grossman and stuff, like I, I, kindness makes sense that you meet like we, like kindness, right? And it's how it's how I led. It's how I built, built teams. I never,
Was the kind of leader or manager that was harsh or,
Dictatorial or, I mean, I was, I was driven. I was competitive. I was aggressive. All of those things, but I always, I always did it with kindness. And I love,
Tether. Great plug for them that they came to you with that. It's funny because when I was going off on my own and I've only been on the entrepreneurial journey, journey two years now, a little over two years, but about three years ago, I started working on the website. And it's so funny you say that, Brent, because I hired this incredible firm in San Francisco called Office, who I had worked with when I was at Disney on Disney Baby and Disney Store. And they came back and said, "When we think of you, we think of joy and credibility." And, and I was like, "Oh." Like, and to your point, like from that day, I was like, "You're right. That's what the website has to be is joy and credibility." You're right. That's what my brand is. My brand is not the book. The book is like one manifestation of the brand, but then everything I do has to have an element of joy and an element of credibility to it. So, I love that yours is like wrapped around kindness and it comes out so much in the book. I mean, like in, in some of the principles you guys have. I mean, the whole community principle comes out. I mean, I love the story of you guys figuring out how long it takes to wrap a bar of soap and tie twine and that I just picture somebody there with a stopwatch figuring out like it has.
It was he was timing me.
You weren't fast enough, Brent, as I recall.
No, but I did. But you had a neighbor that was, you had a neighbor that was a, a really good wrapper, right? Or,
There were there were many neighbors, you know, cuz we, so the, the story that story was that we had gotten our, this was about, uh, probably a year into the company. Um, I had been going to Henry Bendle in New York City and setting up a table and selling the bars of soap myself and, um, and,
That's like high-end farmers market for anybody who's ever been to Henry Bendle. Now, mind you, this is a person I'm, I'm talking about me,
That had, um, been on faculty at Mount Si Hospital.
Yeah.
Had my MBA, had been an executive at Martha Stewart.
Yeah.
And here I was just like every other salesperson on the floor of Bendle, you know, with my product. I'm selling it. And, um,
Bluntly, he was pimping, he was pimping the bars of soap. You were. That's good. Yeah, that's good. And, um, the buyer from Anthropology had come through like on a scouting mission because, you know, Henry Vendell, everybody would come and see what,
Yes, research, research, research.
And so they had put in their first order. Um, they said, we want to bring you to Anthropology. They were our first nationwide, um, uh, retail partner and they ordered 52,000 bars of soap and we, this was for the following holiday. So we had about six or seven months to get the order. Still, there were three of us, you know, me, soap maker, dab, Farmer John was doing the milking and,
Soap maker, dab. Soap maker, dab, right? Yeah.
Um, and, um, Deb Mciliguyu and she, and so, you know, we got the bars of soap made. Then we do a type of soap making process where the soaps have to cure for several weeks, like three to four weeks till they harden off and all the excess moisture comes out.
And so we had finally gotten all the bars done and then we had to wrap them because you can't wrap them until they're completely dry.
Try. Yeah.
And so I just started wrapping, you know, wrapping. It was taking me originally about 22 seconds per bar of soap to wrap them. And we could not because our margins were so thin, we could not afford to hire anybody else. So the only option was, I'm going to sit here and wrap 52,000 bars of soap.
And, um, so, and I was just doing, I was doing it every day, like just wrapping. And so finally we got down to like maybe two or three weeks out from when the order had to ship to Anthropology, which is a big important date because when you start working with a natural retail like that, you have chargebacks if you don't hit the ship date.
Oh, gosh. Yes.
Yeah. And which we,
And it's got to be packed a certain way. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
And this is our first big one. So we were like learning as we go. And so finally, we were like several weeks out and, um, Josh kept telling me, we're never going to get this done. Never going to get it done. I'm like, I, I'm someone who has has magical thinking until someone shows me the numbers. I have true belief in numbers.
Yeah.
So, and so Josh, I was at our dining room table wrapping the bars of soap. They were all stacked in our hallway.
And, um, and Josh sat in the kitchen and he timed me. And by that point, I'd gotten down to seven seconds per bar of soap, uh, wrapping each bar of soap. And he's like, "If you do this 24 hours a day, seven days a week for the next three or four weeks, you will not get it done."
Yeah.
And so you, we were still shipping out online orders, too, at the time. And, um, I was taking my online orders down to the postal office to, you know, send out my priority mail packages. And the post mistress there knew me very well because I came in to drop off orders every day.
And she's like, "How are you doing?" And I'm like, "Oh, it's, you know, I don't know how we're going to get this order done." And Maria, bless her heart, she became like our second employee. Um, she said, "Oh, well, I know everybody in Sharon Springs, so I'm going to, I will call any like housewife, retiree, whatever, stay-at-home person, and see if they want to come over and help, you know,
Like a quilting bee, like a quilting bee.
Totally. And, and she did the phone tree and we had for the next four weeks, we had people that we didn't really know in our house for 24 hours a day. There'd be like two or three of them at a time who would show up, whatever was convened for them, they would let themselves in. They would sit down at the dining room table and they were wrapping the bars of soap because they were building a community. Like, they, they built a community around that dining room table.
I mean, that it makes me weak. Like, I'm weeping. I'm just like, "Oh my God, I had like little tears to core my," I mean, it's like the modern barn raising, right? Like, like,
And by the way, as a consumer of the soap, and I don't know, I don't know. I don't probably did not buy one of those bars, but like,
You feel that, right? Like, it's in that community and that kindness word again. And that neighborhood is in because it is handmade. Like the soap is handmade and hand-wrapped. And I'm laughing because I wondered when did somebody wake up and be like, 52,000 bars is a shitload of soap. Like, that's a lot of soap. Like,
Well, now we've done 60 million bars of soap.
But the thing is, the thing is, is like, you know, now, yes, this, this is, you know, how our company started. It's why we still call every customer a neighbor. Also, those neighbors who helped us get off the ground. And, um, you know, even though now we are, we're really more of kind of a biotech company because we started researching goat milk. What were the nutrients of milk that could influence the microbiome of the skin? And so we really develop products based on this research that we've done on the goat milk. And how we, how we continue to incorporate kindness into that is that on, on, on every product, when you look at the INCI list, which is the ingredient list on every product, you've got your ingredients, goat milk and blah, blah, blah. And then the very last ingredient on that official INCI list is kindness. And,
The reason that we do that is not only because, yes, it's part of our DNA,
Right?
But we, we know, and I'm sure you know this too, that kindness changes your body on a cellular level.
It does.
And, um, like with DNA methylation, it actually changes your body on a cellular level. And, you know, so much, particularly in our industry, in the beauty industry, you talk about glow and you want that glow to your skin. And we're like, our glow, yes, comes from the nutrients in goat milk, but it first and foremost comes from kindness. And when you give or receive an act of kindness,
The dopamine surges in your body, the oxytocin surges in your body. Um, and these are the types of things that cause that glowy feeling. And that glowy feeling shows up on your skin. And so we say, every morning when you use one of our products or you're in the shower and you happen to be using the bar of soap, that is a moment of self-kindness that changes the way you treat every other person in the world when you walk out the door and it is changing your body on a cellular level.
Oh my God. I mean, I love, yeah, because you're in, I love when you say biotech because, quote, you're in the beauty industry, right? But you're talking about the inner beauty and the inner glow, too. Of course, what you're putting on the skin is tested and scient, and I love your science background, like the doctor in you and the MBA in you. I can see this like head and heart. Head and heart, like this balance thing going on. And, and I think knowing enough about Josh too, you guys both have that head and heart and like he's sitting there with the stopwatch measuring like, and I think all of us that are have been successful in business combine head and heart. You have to, like, you have, you have to combine IQ and EQ. Like, I love EQ and I squawk about EQ and I'm talking about soft skills all the time. Kind of bothers me that they're called soft skills, but I tell people all the time, listen, I worked at Disney and DreamWorks and Fox. I didn't get where I was getting because I was nice. Like, I mean, I also had to know my stuff. Like, I, those are data studies. Yes. I had a study.
You know, we think we think Disney is like such a great role model even for our own company.
Because when you go and talk to Disney, and we, we got to do a fantastic presentation at Disney about this book on kindness and how we built our kindness. But,
When you go and you say, okay,
How do you quantify magic? How, like, when you say this is the most magical place on earth or this is the happiest place on earth, how do you quantify that experience that your customer is having? And they do it.
They do.
They have the data.
They measure everything. We, I mean, I was there 12 years and, and, and I say all the time, I'm authentic. I'm radically kind. I care about the world. I want to give back. But I'm also a capitalist pig. Like, I worked, I worked at Disney and if we weren't up 20% every year in earnings, like, by the way, we, I, I say this, I worked at Disney for 12 years. We reorged 11 times. Like, we, I mean, that's what we did. We were about efficiency. We were about effectiveness. We were always about new ways, but it was to create the magic for the guests, right? And, and I love, and I love that you, you know, call your customers neighbors. Obviously, Disney calls their customers guests. And it, that's what it was about. And people say to me all the time, like, it had to be the most magical place on earth to work. It was, but it was also hard because you, every time you achieved a goal, the goal got higher, right? It was like, okay, I thought we did a good job with that store. Like, when we opened Times Square, and I was like, okay, I thought that was good, but guess what?
Oxford Street in London was a better store. Sorry, Times Square. You know, because we made mistakes on Times Square and you, and, and the bar just kept raising. And I always said that, um, and I think you're like this, Brent, like I always was explaining to people at Disney, standards versus expectations. Like, your standards were always really, really high. As a leader, I was good about managing my expectations and the expectations would like move up. But the standards never changed. Like, I had these incredibly high standards on myself and on my team, but I wasn't maniacal. Like, I would say, "Okay, wait a minute. We're going to get there." And I literally would wake up in the morning and be like, "Are we better today than we were yesterday?" Like, that was the, because there's no way. And, and by the way, I don't know if we would have ever, if I was still at Disney today, I don't know if we would have ever got to my standards, but I think, yeah. Like the little gap, the gap would have got tighter.
And here's the way to look at it when people talk about, you know, capitalism and, yes, you have to grow your business. Like,
If you're not growing, you're dying. Like, basically,
And you have to know your margins. Like, you mentioned margins before, right? You have to know your numbers.
But here's what, here's the thing that I think Disney does well in their company culture and I think we do well at at Beakman is that,
The way we frame it to our employees and our employees, and I know this is true at Disney, um, they, because everybody who works at Disney loves Disney, like, it's the, like the level of devotion. Um, they really look at it as, yes, I'm being asked to deliver more sometimes for less, um, but the goal is how much magic I can bring. How can I think creatively in a different way that's going to bring more magic? Same with us, but like, what can we do that is going to bring more kindness into the world?
Um, and,
Yeah, and it's not, I love that you say that because it's not always immediately noticeable, too. I think that's the other thing you learn working in a kind of mission-vision-led environment or culture is it's going to sneak up on you, right? Like, all of a sudden one day you're going to wake up and be, and someone on your team is going to surprise you because they're going to say something and you're like, that's the most insightful thing I've heard in the last three months, right? But it's because of the environment that you've created that they're operating in. It's so funny because I've got her behind me, like this girl. Can you see her?
Yeah.
She's, okay. She's in a Snow White costume. This is the Disney Store girl.
And we, everybody on their desk, I still have mine all these years later, had this picture. There was her and there was a boy in a Buzz Lightyear costume.
But that's who we kept saying, like, even when we get in meetings and things would get tough, I'd be like, "We're doing it for them. We're doing it for them. We're doing it for them." Because she's having a whole moment.
She has no shoes on and her hair is not perfectly coiffed, but she is in the moment.
And, um, I think putting the neighbor, putting the guest at the center of everything and then trying to exceed their expectations, which is what the Disney culture was.
Let me turn this thing better. Even better.
For sure. Now, let me turn this interview on you just for a second because anytime I do a, a podcast, I'm like, what am I, what can I learn?
Of course. No, it's your time.
Because I want, because think about this, like, think about our company and obviously 16 years is not anything near like Disney, but this was,
This was a company, right? This was a company that started before social media.
And,
I don't know, and I want your, your opinion on this.
I don't know if, given the attention span, given the algorithm, that you will ever have companies that develop the culture, the way Beakman or especially like Disney. I just don't ever happen again.
I mean, it's thought-provoking. I, I won't lie. It's, it saddens me a little, too. But I, I agree with you. I think it's just, it's, it's different for sure. And, and I say this all the time, even on a more foundational basis, is that I built a culture similar to what you and Josh did in person. Like, I built, like, by being in, we, it's the old days of five days a week in the office and traveling around the world together and, you know, visiting stores together, like the old days of, you know, retail 101, like knowing your store managers and your district managers and, um, training them, like those annual conferences, right? Like, I was, it was a very physical thing. I've had to learn skills over the years of like, how to manage hybrid, how to manage distance. Um, I, I think you said it earlier, though. It's, I, if you're mission and vision led and you have a story to tell, you have to learn how to tell the story faster now. For sure. Like,
I think it's interesting when you, the story you told about going to Ulta and how do I tell my story in three feet, right? I think it's the same thing is like, how do I tell my story in a 30-second video, right? How, how do I tell my story in a 30-second TikTok post?
Yeah, you don't have. This is Jim. I was just at a conference this week.
So crazy.
And, um, the new metric, the new KPI that that services the algorithm on TikTok and Instagram most effectively right now,
Is three seconds. Can you get someone's attention and make them last watch your content longer than three seconds? If you can, that gets you into the algorithm in a way that pushes out your content faster. But three seconds is what you have.
I mean, it's crazy. I mean, it's, it's crazy. I mean, because we, I mean, what you're asking again, the doctor and you, I feel coming out is like, and, and I, I can be blunt because it's my pocket. It's like the ADD ADHD generation, right? Like, and, and I find myself, it's funny, even with the book and now you've written the book. Like, I'm shocked how many people listen to the book versus read the book, right? Because I'm an old-fashioned, like, you know, I read your book and highlighted and put these little post-it notes in.
But when I'm out on my book journey or book tour or book events, so many people said I, and it's, it's funny, they don't even say I read your book. They're like, "I loved listening to your book." And, and I,
You know, me recording my book was like a journey because I wasn't really into it. I don't love my own voice. I have a little bit of claustrophobia. Like, there was a lot about the recording of the book that was stress-inducing.
Um, but I'm so glad I did it because I realized,
And it's not only generational, but I'm reaching those people who are literally listening to the book while they're commuting, right? Or or sitting on a subway or driving in traffic. And I'm always going to be old school. Like, I'm going to go to a bookstore and pick up books and flip through it and I'm going to highlight.
Oh, I've got my highlight.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm always going to do that. But I, what I have to embrace is that a lot of people, and I think that's why I did the podcast, why I launched the podcast, because I was like, well, if they're already listening to me on the book, like, I might as well do a podcast, right? And again, you reach a whole different audience. But I, that three-second rule, like, it kind of makes me nervous. Like, the hair stands up on my neck.
Well, here's, well, here's the thing, J. You got to grab them.
One, you have a great voice for the podcast. I, it's so very compelling. Um, but you're like a Gary Vee voice. You know, I could listen to Gary Vee all the time. Um, but, um, also, and I've learned this just on this book tour, like, as many podcasts as we've done for this book,
Um, it doesn't even matter about the podcast now. It's about the clip that the video clip. So I want you to, this is the video clip. One of the video clips.
All right, I'm ready. I'm ready.
Do not do a podcast unless you have someone who are editing the video down into clips. And I'm saying that from a podcast host and I'm saying that from the person doing the podcast. Don't waste your time doing a podcast unless they're going to make a video clip because that's the attention that you have.
It is. And, and it's so funny you say that, Brent, because again, the land of algorithms and tracking, as a brand owner, and I know we're on Spotify, we're in Apple, we're on YouTube. Believe me, there's data galore. The clip viewing is about 20 times bigger than the actual episode, right? Even though you tag it back to the episode and you do all that stuff. Um, and, and I, yeah, I mean, you're right. And with the podcast production companies out there, like, it's, you need a lot of clips. Like, it's not, it's not just one or two clips. You need multiple clips. And, um, it's funny because I feel like you and I are both lifelong learners and constantly curious. And there's part of me when I launched this entrepreneurial part that was kind of fighting it, to be honest, because I was like, "No, that's not the way I do it." Like, it's not my authenticity. And I was like, "You know what? Nope. I got to learn this stuff." Right? And so all of a sudden I'm like learning the YouTube algorithm and I'm learning how to do Canva and I'm learning, I'm learning how, like, you know, like I was, I was intimidated by it and I was like, you know what, if you're truly a lifelong learner and constantly curious, Jim, you got to do this and just get in there and play. And I, I feel like the other clip besides podcast company with a clip, only do a podcast and I've told people this. Only do a podcast if you're genuinely interested in talking to the person that you've got on. Like, do not do it as, like, I'm going to do a podcast as a marketing vehicle or I'm going to do a podcast because I'm going to get X new audience members or I'm going to get X new subscribers to the book club. Because if you do it for those reasons, and again, capitalist pig, um, it comes off as a commercial, right? And, and I don't want to do commercials. I want to be in conversation. I want to be in community and, um, and that's why when I did Jim Fielding and Friends, I wanted it to feel like that because, um, and, and, you know, Brent, like, you get asked, be on this podcast, be on this podcast, and now people pitch me saying I should be a guest on your podcast and I say no a lot because I'm like, I don't have a genuine connection to you. Like, there's, there's thousands of podcasts out there. Go be on another podcast. But in mine, I really want to have someone that I want to spend an hour with and, um, that we have a genuine connection. So, but you're, but you're so right. And I learn every day, like, and because, by the way, these algorithms change constantly.
LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, they change const. I feel like it's a game they play.
Like they let us catch up and then they're like, "Let's spin the wheel and like, it's going to be all new again." But your three-second thing is going to stick with me.
Yeah.
Okay. So now, okay, now I'm going to go. Well, we've been personal, professional, but I, I want to talk about it's principle number 11. Two heads are better than one, which ironically is in my book as well, but it really was you guys talking about your partnership. And that was one of the questions I have is that you've had this business partnership, but you've had this life partnership, too. And I'm just wondering, how do you do that? I mean, I know you write about it in the book, but like, how, tell us the story of like, how you make that work because I think that's fascinating, too.
Well, it is, it is a challenge and I, and you were talking at the top of the podcast about how there are very few businesses written by gay founders, but there's another one. There may be that's written by a gay married couple founders, uh, who have, you know, grown a business and written a book about.
Wait, I lo, yeah. Um,
Brent, I lost you for a minute.
Oh, okay. Am I back?
Okay, I think you're back. Are you back?
I can hear you.
You're back. You're right. Okay, great. You're back. Um, you were talking about, start over again. Like, I, I, I talked about business books by queer founders, but then you said, "Okay,
And yes, those are very rare in of themselves, but to have a book written by a married gay couple who have grown, I don't know if there is another one. I, I haven't seen. There is,
I think there is, but somebody will tell us, but I don't, tell, we'd like to know. Um, and, yeah, I think for us, um, Josh likes to say that his inspiration in kind of coming out was, um, his gay uncle, um, who after the war, um, went to live in France with his lover. Um, they were both soldiers during the war and then they both got jobs at the World Bank and they, um, lived in Switzerland for a long time and then the South of France and they were really, when Josh was kind of not, not even starting to question his sexuality, but his mother was before he was and his mother said, "Oh, I think it would be great if you went over to visit your Uncle Arthur in France." And, um, so Josh did and it just kind of changed his life on how he thought about what,
Being gay could be when he saw this couple had been together for so many years.
And, um, you know, they had just built this life together and, um, he, I think asked them at the time, how, how did you build this? Because there were just so few representations of long-term gay couples and they said, you know what, you always have to have a project.
You must always have a project. And I think for us, um, the business was our project and so there was just always different things that we could work on and focus on or separate, you know, and, you know, go on our on our way about, but I think that was really critical, always have a project. Now, I think for some couples, children are the project, right? So that, that's the thing that's the project that you're working on, but for us, the business was the project and,
You know, I'd say early on, it was really stressful. Like, I would say the first five or six years, we didn't pay ourselves a salary. So it was always like,
Hand to mouth, you know?
And so finance was always the biggest struggle for us, like arguing over the finances.
And, um, one day, I remember we had this, we were sitting in the truck in the driveway of the farm and we had this epic blowout about the fight.
And, um, because at that point, we were both like, every day checking the bank account and it's like, Mhm.
$8, $7. And so you're just constantly working yourself up about it. And so we had this huge blowout. And finally, I said, you know what? There is no need for both of us every day to be worried and procrastinating on down to the penny what is in the bank account.
Um, so I am going to surrender that to you. M.
But I am going to trust you implicitly with the finances and I know that you're going to be on top of it.
And so that from that moment came how we structured the whole rest of every decision-making in the company from that point on. It's called the 51% rule. And, um, whoever between the two of us had the most either interest or passion or fear, uh, around a certain topic and it could be anything, like what color was this going to be or what was the formulation going to be like on this product. Um, whoever was the most passionate about that would get the 51% of the decision-making.
And 51% is critical because it's not like you have 100%. You know, because,
For sure.
That means that you are expected, as the, as the person of the 49%, to argue and fight and make sure that your opinion is heard all the way up to that point of impasse where there's like, you're stuck, and then the other person gets the exec, you know, to, um, to get to throw in their 51%. M.
And what that does is one, it makes sure that the 49% person is heard in the decision-making process, but also because you have had to, that the person with the 51% had to fight and to demonstrate and to lay out the data,
They have like fallen on their sword of why they're the right one, right?
They're, they don't want to fail.
And so they're even harder to make sure that whatever the decision they made.
And so that, that, that, and I think a lot of our team members who we have about just under 100 employees now, and I think a lot of them and their teams do the same thing, like even without, they don't call it the 51% rule, but they see how we have operated and they, but this is the two heads are better than one principle. And by the way, listeners and viewers, what Brent just shared about running the business, to me, it's like, Brent for president. Because to me, that's democracy, right? And I'm not going to go political here, but like, we know what the results were in the last election, which by the way, were, I believe, pretty much 51-49, right?
Right. Really close. And this is what I keep saying. I was a political science major in college. But I keep saying that like this is what we've lost in America is civil debate and discussions and the, the minority majority discussions and the minority presenting their point of view with facts, which you mentioned. I love that. And, and by the way, arguing, like arguing, that's what Congress used to be. That's what city councils used to be. And arguing without degenerating into fighting and finger-pointing and bullying and everything. And I,
I, I mean, what you just laid out, I mean, to me, like all of our politicians should take your kindness class and listen to you guys because that, that, that is to me, living in a democracy and being in a partnership in 51-49. It also is making me realize one of the things that I miss the most in my own journey is I'm both sides. Like, I'm a total solopreneur, right? And so I am the one like, "Oh my God, they haven't paid me yet." Like, I'm
Having to track down people paying me for the speaking gigs or the accounts payable, and I'm like the invoicer and stuff. And I keep saying I want to get the business to a point where I can bring in a partner because I'm used to having someone to bounce ideas off of. And by the way, I don't want to have all the answers. Like, I don't, I don't know all the, I never did my entire corporate career. And I need, I need, and so I have a network of truth tellers and friends that I'll be like, "Can I please just bounce this off of you?" Like, I'm, I'm not sure if I should invest in this for the business, or, you know, even when, like, I was launching the podcast, I asked a lot of people because I'm used to having that kind of kitchen cabinet of, of, um, opinions and debates, and I miss that. It's what I miss about being part of a bigger team. I think I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing right now, but it is what I miss.
Well, and that we talk, and I'm so glad you said that because we talk a little bit about that in the book in a different section, but how do you decide who is going to be your first hire? Yes. Yes. And that's exact, you can think of it that way, like, who is going to be the 49%? Um, for these decisions, you know. Yes. That's really important.
Well, it's, and you also have, I don't know if it's in this principle, but like the "many hands make light work" principle, right? Yeah. Correct. And I, like, I miss that. Like, I, and I, I definitely have people, you know, like, that support me or advise me, but, um, again, I grew up going to an office every day, like, going to a place where I would have human interaction, you know, and now I'm working out of my house. And there's so many benefits that come with that. And, um, but I miss it. I miss the physicalness of going somewhere, for sure.
It's so funny, Jim, when you, we've been throwing out these proverbs. "Two heads better than one," "Many hands make light work." And for those who haven't, you know, looked at the book yet, that's really how we structured the entire book. And the reason it's called "Goat Wisdom" is not because we started on a goat farm. It's because Greatest Of All Time wisdom. Yes. Yes.
Um, and the way we structured the book was that each chapter takes these old proverbs that many of us have heard over and over and over. Um, and we say, you know what? These proverbs have been around for hundreds of years. They've been passed down. They are tried and true, and they are how you create a foundation for any type of relationship. It could be a business relationship. It could be a personal relationship. Yes. They are going to work for you. And then what we did was we looked through all of the, you know, social psychology literature, the business psychology literature, and found the studies that had been done that basically proved that these proverbs are truthful and fact in factual, and it's how people have built businesses. And, you know, the aside that I love is that so many of these proverbs come from agrarian culture. You know, their farms.
Yes. Because, guess what? Farmers were the first entrepreneurs. You know? For sure. And, um, and it's, it's just how you build a good foundation.
I mean, that, yeah, that work, I mean, it comes out in everything you do. That work ethic and that respect. I mean, that respect for history, that respect for heritage, the respect for the land, like the respect for the natural materials of the goat milk. Like, I mean, it comes out in everything you guys do. And I think probably why I was drawn to your brand, too. I think, you know, growing up in the Midwest, like I did, I mean, we were not an agrarian, but we, you know, we were not far from farm country, right? And I had farming in the family. And, and I think I loved all my time in LA and like living in cities, but I would always need to get back to nature. Like, I would always, like, if I couldn't touch a real tree, not like a fake tree like in Beverly Hills, like I needed to be in, like, and I needed to feel grass, right? Like, I needed to feel dirt. Like, um, I think it's why I plant, you know, I had plants everywhere. Like, there's things that, I think, just ground me that I need.
For sure. I mean, it's the same. Like, you work in Hollywood or you're working at Disney, like so much of it is artifice in the production side, right? That's just a, like, that's not a real house. That's just a, you know, that's AstroTurf. And so you do, you do get that longing for something that is real. Um, and I think maybe people who work in industries like that, um, come to that realization much sooner than people who don't. And then also, I think there's just, you know, growing up in the Midwest or working on a farm, there's just a pragmatism and a self-sufficiency.
Very much. Very much. That people. And, you know, so much of what you see, and this goes back to social media and the attention span, what not, is that everything that you see, all the advice that you see is, "Five easy ways to," "Here's the hack for this." Um, and you just cannot hack your way through a legacy business. You can, you can go far. You can make some money. Uh, but if, and that could be your goal, and that's fine if that's your goal, wonderful. But if you want to have something that's going to stand the test of time, that's not going to cut it. Like.
Yeah. No, I was going to say the sustainability, right? And I think, I think it's interesting what you say in, I had a very successful, you know, media retail business, but I always felt a certain amount of a fish out of water. But I think it also helped me maintain that perspective of, I think I made it in Hollywood because I always was like, "This isn't real," right? Like, I knew, I knew, like, I think I have a really good meter. You know what I mean? Like, I knew, I knew what we were doing and I knew we were doing wish fulfillment and magic making, but I also knew that it wasn't always real. That there was a ton, to your point, of artifice in it.
But I, I had that grounding from my family and from how I was brought up, where I knew what real looked like. I think part of what happens for some people is they lose that counterpoint of being able to to track, that's real, this is fake, right? Like, we're going through it with fake news right now, right? Like, real, fake. Cuz even now, when I see a headline or a story, and I, I'm getting so much better about not like overreacting, where I'm like, "Okay, wait a minute. I got to go fact-check that." Like, that. Like, and sometimes the headline is correct, but I need to take the deep breath and be like, "Okay, wait a minute. I got to go fact-check this and look at different sources because that can't be right." Like, 100% right.
The headline is often true, but sensationalized because it's trying to grab your eyeballs, which is so funny because again, we talked about you have to like listen to like both sides. And I always think about this, um, with, with Donald Trump, um, in that years, even before he ran for presidency, he talked about the fake media, right? Fake media.
Um, because he contributed to it. Like, he called up, like, his publicist, like, pretend to be his own publicist and planning the story, right? So he understood there's not a lot of fact-checking. You print what you know. And so he understood, this is the nature of the game. And I know how to play the game. And he did. He knew how to play the game. And that's why he's playing. And he's been playing a long time.
No, but to your point, and I say this, listen, you, doctor brain, MBA brain, communications, brand builder, all that kind of stuff. I say this all the time. Marketing, PR, branding, what I've done, they get how to be on message. Like, they are incredible communicators. I don't like what they're saying, and I don't like what they're doing, but I give them credit for being really, really good at communication and, um, and making things short and digestible, to your point. And they say it over and over and over again until it all of a sudden becomes fact, even though it's not fact. And I, you know, I, I've just been working really hard again, being part of the minority of like, "Okay, we have got to get on message here, people. Like, we have got to get, like, our message is all over the place. And our message can't be, 'They're wrong and we're right,' because that's not a message, right?"
And it's not true. It's not true. It's not. And there's learnings underneath it all. There's things that are being done that did need to be fixed. I mean, and, and so it's, it's hard because it's under a sea of other stuff, and you're kind of overwhelmed every day. But again, that's me being an active listener. That's me asking for answers, right?
And let me, let me, I know we're, we're coming up to the end.
No, no, we're good. I have two more questions for you.
Okay. Let me bring it, let me bring it back full circle because what you're just talking about in the listening and the learning and the applying, is also what you touched on with kindness, and are we an unkind world? And it's partly because we have forgotten that at the root of kindness is empathy. And a lot of times, people just think empathy is just means that you're sympathizing with someone and like saying, "Oh, I see what you're going through." No. Empathy means that you are mentally, sometimes physically, but at least mentally putting yourself in the head of the person you're trying to understand. And you are trying to view the world through their context of their entire life, through their eyes. And you're trying to understand why they are thinking the way they are thinking. And in our 3-second headline clickbait, we are not doing that. We're not an unkind culture. We are a culture who is not taking the time for empathy.
Yeah. We're like too busy. I think you're absolutely right. Like, we're, again, short attention span. I think you're absolutely right. Okay. I have two questions for you that are perfect for this. The first, looking back with all of this wisdom now, what would you tell 25-year-old Brent that you wish you would have known when you were 25 that you know today?
Well, I'll, I'll spin this for entrepreneurs or business founders. Sure. Um, because this has been the key to our success, aside from everything else, you know, that has happened and that we've done. We have always entered every single relationship with first thinking, "How am I going to make that person or their product or their, whatever, better? How am I going to deliver for them?" And by virtue of that, it is going to deliver for me. Um, and that's just how we, any, every collaboration we've done, you know, when, when I said we'd do this podcast, I'm like, "How am I going to push out this podcast? Like, how am I going to get, how am I going to tell people about the book club?" Like, I always enter every relationship, and it could be a small negotiation, big negotiation. "How am I going to overdeliver for the person on the other side of the table?" And I think if you just go through life thinking that way, the fortune will come to you.
Oh my god. Okay, I had another question, but I can't top that. So I, Oh my god, this has been so amazing, Brent. Now, okay, let's do the plug. "Goat Wisdom" is the book. They can find it wherever great books are sold, but also at elstora.com. It is the, you can sign up for the "Leading with Pride" book club, and it can be your first book in the program, and your first book is, I think, a dollar now, right? When you're joining the club. So, this can be your first book. December.
Yeah, December. Can I just say that RuPaul? We talk about different goats, and RuPaul and the team at World of Wonder who does the, we talk about them as goats because they were goats. They were. And, you know, RuPaul is one of the investors for us. So again, from the community, for the community, by the community. Obviously, Beekman1802.com for product, right? I mean.
Yeah, or Ulta or QVC.
Yeah, I was going to say, there's many places you can find them. Great holiday gifts because this podcast is going to come out right before the holidays. And I told you at the beginning when we're off air, I am coming to New York City to record in person again in 2026. You and I, you can bring Josh. We could do a lovely professional three-way. I always have to say professional three-way because I throw out three-way very openly. Um, and it would be such an honor and pleasure. And I feel like this is like I'm checking this off in my baby book because I think back to watching you guys in 2011 and 2013, not knowing where this was all going to take us, and the fact that we spent this hour together in community, um, in conversation, being neighbors. I've been a neighbor. I'm now more of a neighbor. I would have come and I would have come and wrap soap like if I lived there. I don't think I could have made seven seconds, but I would have done. I don't think you would have fired me. I would have come and wrapped.
Well, I know, I know you're going to be opening up the advent calendar every day, so that's your wrapping. I can't wait. We're going to, uh, yes, I, I told you I have your advent calendar. I'm not going to do a plug for the other one. And a chocolate advent calendar that will be part of the Fielding Langum Christmas this year. Awesome. Um, please tell Josh thank you and my best and congratulations on the book. It is my honor to feature it in the book club and thank you for taking the time and imparting your incredible wisdom for our viewers and listeners. It's been amazing.
And thank you, Jim. I learned a lot, too.
Okay. Thanks. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this show, make sure you leave a review, subscribe, and follow us on your favorite podcast platform. We appreciate you and look forward to seeing you soon. Is letting go. Chosen family.