Transcription
So, what are some of the top skills that you think you learned working for the CIA that you can then apply to like real civilian life or the world?
Yeah, there are a lot of skills that you learn at CIA, but the ones that are the most applicable really have to do with understanding and predicting and directing human behavior.
Human beings aren't really that difficult to understand and they're not that difficult to predict, which makes them not that difficult to control or direct. And those were the most useful skills that we learned at CIA.
Give me an example.
So, um, let me give a very funny example, right? I do this often times with people. We are conditioned to make certain body movements just based off of what we encounter, right? So, when we first met, I extended my hand.
Yeah. Which even now, you know, I'm not trying to shake your hand, but you still feel the need to put your hand out.
Yeah. That's predictable directing human behavior, right? With personal bubbles, I can literally move you. If we're standing next to each other, I can literally move you someplace where I want you to go just by invading your personal bubble. I know that if I silently stand too close to you, you will move away. And people do this all the time. People do it in lines. They do it in elevators. What CIA does is teaches you how to do it intentionally with operational utility to achieve a certain outcome that you want.
The same thing is true when it comes to getting someone to speak. You can get someone to speak when they don't want to speak. You can get someone to say things they don't realize they're saying by using tools of elicitation. Just as a real quick example, I'm going to stop talking. Just kind of count to yourself how many seconds go by before you start to feel like you need to say something because the silence is so awkward.
I mean, yeah, like I would go, I wouldn't even that was awkward even though I knew you were doing it on purpose. It's still awkward.
It's still awkward. So that can force you to get someone else to speak. I was counting in my own head. It was about two and a half seconds before I could see the muscles on your face start to tighten into a smile where you're like, I could tell you felt awkward.
Yeah.
This, I mean, these skills are rudimentary. What we're going through right now are just simple things that we can demonstrate right now. If I started playing the national anthem, you know what you would do?
What?
Stand up.
Right? Cuz that's just what happens when you play the national anthem. When we say, you know, put your hand over your heart, people do. Take off your hat. People do. You don't even have to know why. If someone just walks up to a man and says, "Sir, can you please remove your hat?" You know what that man is going to do?
Remove his hat. Not even knowing why, but just because we've been conditioned to believe that there's some reason that we should obey the direction of somebody else. When a stranger tells us to do something, we feel like we need to do it.
There are behaviors worldwide that fit these kinds of predetermined outcomes. The personal bubble in Europe is very much smaller than the personal bubble in the US, but they're still a personal bubble. Different national anthems in different countries, but they still have the same reaction. People still stand up, they stop talking, they show a moment of silence. They turn towards a flag. So, these are the kind of indicators that we're taught to look for and in very basic terms because they go on and on. They go through, you know, eye movements, facial movements, how you touch your face. There's all sorts of skills that you can see whether or not you're driving a behavior.
So that's so interesting to me. So like what did you call it when you can move someone like by doing that?
Directing human behavior.
No, no, but you're saying like putting your hand out for example, knowing that I was going to do the same thing. What is that called?
Yeah, we're predicting and directing human behavior because I know that culturally this is going to be meaningful to you.
So then do you have, are you always like a few steps ahead of anybody when you want them to do something? Like are you very, you know, you already know what's going to happen? Like do you have a plan? Like if you want this person to do that thing, I need to do A, B, and C to get them there.
When there's an outcome I'm trying to achieve. Yes.
But let's play this game. So, like let's say I was a girl that you wanted to go out with or vice versa. What would be your plan of attack? What would you do?
What's the situation? What's the scenario? Where are we at? How did we meet? Kind of give, can you give me some context?
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
Like if, if this is, let's just say it's the real thing. Let's say you're the girl that I want you to go, I want you to go out with me and we're in this situation that we're in right now. Okay. Right. Then I would, I would most likely tell you that when I was with Tom and Lisa, Lisa's making a home-cooked dinner. She's making dinner tonight and I have to be back at their house at 6:00 and they wanted me to invite you to come along 'cause they haven't seen you in a long time.
Okay. How would that make me? Okay. So I'd be like, "Oh, that's so nice."
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Okay, that's yes.
Do you want to come with me?
Sure.
And that's how I would get you to move from this situation to come out with me.
But what if it wasn't the case? What if it wasn't?
None of that is real. Okay, fine. So, if it's not real and then I say yes, then what happens?
So, if it's not, so I'm getting you to come with me for something that isn't real. Right.
Right. So, now when I come to pick you up.
I'll be like, "Well, Tom, I just got a phone call from Tom. They're not feeling well. Lisa canceled, but we're still together." And uh, I know that this is your neighborhood. Do you have a good restaurant nearby that you would recommend?
Right. So, you, you would do a setup.
Yeah. It's called a bait and switch.
A bait and switch. That's a normal, that's a good one. Okay. How would someone then, if someone wants to land a job, how would they like get the person? Or actually, let me start. Let me, let me instead of giving you scenarios like I do a lot of these things on like how to be likable and how to be, um, you know, how to develop your people skills, let's say, right? How, what would be your number one way to get somebody to like you?
You want them to feel comfortable around you, which really means you want them to see themselves in you. So, you want to mirror back to them their behaviors, their language, their vocabulary, their tonality, their non-verbal and verbal communication, their values.
And so, you're mirroring them.
Correct. That's what the term that we use is mirroring as well. When you mirror somebody, it's irresistible subconsciously. They can't ignore the fact that they feel comfortable around you because you are acting like they are acting.
So, you, you're, so if I'm talking, you'll match my tone and your vocabulary, your pacing, your volume.
So, when, okay. So then how about this? Okay. So, what is it? Because I see I've seen that you've spoken about this. What is the difference between being persuasive and being influential?
Persuasion and influence are two tools that often get misunderstood or they get, they get misidentified as being one and the same, right? Persuasion, as we're taught at CIA, persuasion is emotional, which means it can only happen when you're with a person because that's the only time that you can make the emotional connection to bond with them. So, when I say you have to be with a person, that doesn't mean you physically have to be with them. It means that they have to be perceptive or they have to perceive that they are with you. So whenever you make a TikTok video, for example, whoever watches that TikTok video, to them, in their perception, they are in that moment with you, even though you are not in that moment with them. Make sense?
So persuasion has to happen in a moment where there's a connection between two people because persuasion is based in emotion. Influence is what happens when you are not connected to a person. You are not physically there. You are not represented. There's no perception of your presence, but they're still thinking about you. Something you said, something you suggested, something you did, something you recommended. That's influence. So, persuasion is how you start because you have a moment to build someone's emotion, their emotional connection, their emotional momentum. And then when you disappear and they think of you anyways, that's influence.
And the reason both of these are so powerful is because over time, your target, your target being the person who watches your videos and the person who thinks about you when they're not watching your videos, the human brain calculates, it tabulates every second that it's thinking about you. Whether it's with you in a video or whether it's thinking about you on the toilet, your brain can't differentiate the difference between those two moments and the moments when we're actually sitting together. Your brain sees it as all the same thing. So, for example, you've known about me for multiple years.
It sounds like.
Two years probably.
Yeah. You feel like there's a relationship with me that's different than the relationship I feel with you because you've had so much more exposure to me. And your brain has literally tabulated all of those moments and bits and bites and seconds and fractions of time. It's put all that together to basically say, "Hey, you know this guy. He's familiar to you. You know what he's about. You know what he believes in. You guys are friends. You're going to get along." Your brain is telling your subconscious that already, even though there really isn't any proof that it's true.
100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Although I don't feel like we're friends, but I do feel like a familiarity that you wouldn't feel 'cause you've never seen me before. You have no idea who I am. You're probably like, "Who is this girl? I'm at like sitting in her podcast studio." You know what I mean? Like you just kind of can't. This is like one of 50,000 podcasts you've probably done. Me, I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm so excited to have him. I love his content." Right.
Well, it's, and it's not necessarily something that I want to, um, I don't want to personally offend, obviously.
Trust me, you're not personally offending me at all. It takes way more than that, honey, to personally offend me. But, but this is the tool.
No, I know. That's what I'm saying. Like that's, that's I'm actually taking it as like the information.
So, think about everybody who's read a book, right? Your favorite author. You feel like you know that person. You, the whole idea of celebrity is really just this concept on a massive scale. That's why we feel like we have a bond with our favorite actors or our favorite actresses. It's why we feel like we understand our favorite journalists. It's why we feel like we understand our favorite painters because we've spent so much time reflecting on them. That's influence that they've been able to put out there. Think about the influence of Vincent Van Gogh or the influence of, you know, the, uh, any member of the Beatles.
I understand what you mean. I guess my question was more about, did your time at the CIA teach you how to be more persuasive? Like, what are some of the tactile, like tactile or actionable things that you, 'cause you now have a company, right? It's called Everyday Spy, where you take these things that you've honed and learned and you apply them to everyday civilian life for people.
Correct.
Correct. So, what are some of these really important skills that could be very helpful and beneficial for people?
Well, persuasion is a great place to start. Um, because let's just assume that somebody already knows that influence and persuasion are not the same thing. And let's go ahead and also assume that they already knew that persuasion was tied to emotion. So, those are two big steps because the average person doesn't really understand that. But, let's just go ahead and start there. So, how do you teach someone the technical steps of persuasion once they understand that persuasion is based in emotion? Right? You have to start teaching them how to identify emotional levers in their target. So, you are kind of my guinea pig right now, right?
Mhm.
So, when I look at you, I don't know what your emotional state is right now. I don't know if you're angry, if you're sad, if you're anxious, if you're worried. I don't know what you value. I don't know much about really anything except that there's a newspaper or there's a magazine on the wall that says that that's by the Jewish Journal and you made a comment earlier about being Israeli. So that tells me that there's probably a connection between you and the Jewish faith or the Israeli nationality or at least the Jewish plight. So there's something, there's something there. From there, I can start exploring topics that are likely to trigger emotions. I can start talking about anti-semitism. I can start talking about support for the Palestinian people. I can talk about injustices that are happening in Gaza right now. I can talk about injustices that are happening in the UN when they try to out Israeli leadership. I know that you've you've already admitted that you've had a meeting with leadership in Israel. I could assume that that if that's not Netanyahu, it's somebody else close to Netanyahu's circle, which is a chance for me to start talking about Netanyahu's corruption charges and the fact that his own people are turning against him. These are likely to be points that will trigger some kind of emotional response. As long as I'm the one talking though, I won't know what emotions are being stirred up.
So, I need to make a statement, kind of pry into an emotional topic, and then wait for a response. That's the only way I'm going to get the feedback to understand what is actually pushing levers and whether those are feelings of anger or remorse or sadness or something else.
Right? So, you're able to pick up clues basically.
They're, you have, well, they're very overt clues, but yeah.
So, to you, they feel like they're overt. To the average person, they may not, they may not even think to pull topics from previous conversation and topics from around the room. Right? That's an assessment tool.
Um, I'm, and that only works 'cause I'm in your space. If we were meeting at a coffee shop down the street, I wouldn't have these to pull from.
So how would you do it?
You'd have to pull it a different way.
How?
A lot of it ties back to how you ask questions and the types of questions that you ask, right? You, there's two types of questions. There's open-ended questions and close-ended questions. If you ask open-ended questions, those are questions that don't have a simple answer. So, "How are you?" That's a close-ended question. "Are you happy?" Close-ended question. "Are you hot in this room?" Close-ended question. But, you know, "How did you feel when you woke up this morning?" That's a more open-ended question, right? Um, "What made you choose this coffee shop for us today?" That's a more open-ended question. These are questions that will lead to more conversation.
And that is what gives you the foundation to start probing. And then as you start probing, you can start looking for emotional responses. So, is that something that you teach people how to be more persuasive?
Correct.
What's another thing that you teach a lot of, that people that come to you? What's the number one thing that people actually ask you to help them with?
People come to us because they are good people who have been taken advantage of. That's the vast majority of who comes to us. I actually just got off a call yesterday with a guy who built a $7 million business and was then forced out of his own business by two partners that he brought on 10 years ago because they were struggling friends of his. And over the over the last 10 years, they kind of, they worked against him. They used his kindness and they used his faithfulness and they used his loyalty kind of against him and they took his business and now he's got $6,000 in the bank and a family of four and nothing to show for it. Um, and he's like, "How did I get to this?" And he's 50 years old and he comes to me and he's like, "I don't know how I got here and I don't know how to fix it." And of course, he comes to me because he's like, "I think what I want to do is run a public smear campaign against them to try to get my company back." And it's, and then you have to have that hard conversation where you explain, good people are going to be good people their whole lives. Like, you can't, you can't be good for 50 years and then break bad and then turn into a bad guy.
So I had to explain to him like, you're, you're better off starting all over again because you know how to build a company than trying to become a bad guy and coerce these people into somehow giving you back your business. It's never going to work. And that is really what we deal with. We deal the most with very, very wealthy people who have been taken advantage of and who understand that they are either a poor judge of character or they have some sort of gap in their knowledge when it comes to dealing with unscrupulous people. People who have been embezzled against, people who have been cheated on, um, people who've been robbed by loved ones. That's, that's the vast majority of what we really do see from individuals asking for our consulting.
And then you're teaching them exactly what though? Like if they come to you, not that guy, but another guy, like how to, what?
How to identify when you're being misled, how to identify misinformation, disinformation, how to.
How do you identify misinformation?
It's all the same tools that we've been talking about, right? You have to understand how to assess, how to use certain questioning types.
So, you, like you said, it's not, it's like how you ask, like the questions you ask, how you ask them. I mean, for the purposes of a podcast interview, that's pretty much as deep as I can go.
But with a client, I can actually go through the specific strategies. Here is a type of question that we can ask. Here's seven varieties of that question. Here are the seven different kinds of responses you'll get from those seven different kinds of questions. We can give them a.
Get more deep depending on the scenario.
Correct? Because you have time, right? The CIA teaches us there's only three resources that matter: time, energy, and money. That's it. Everything else out there is an irrelevant resource. It bundles up into either time, energy, or money. Just because you have money doesn't mean you can make a change because if you don't have enough energy or enough time, the money doesn't help you. You can have all the time in the world and if you don't have enough money, you can't affect the change, right? So, you need to have all three resources. So, when I work with clients, that's a lot of times where we start from is, hey, these are the three resources you have. Which of these resources do you have in abundance? Which of these resources do you have the least amount of? And oftentimes, what we find is people have either a great deal of time and no money or a great deal of money and very little time. That helps us adjust how we will train them, right? People who have a great deal of money and not a lot of time, we will put them into a very concentrated training. And vice versa, people who have more time than money, they'll go into digital training.
So, how about, what's, you, what would you say would be the number one skill or the number one thing people should do to change the outcome of what they want to change?
When the reason I struggle with this is because I would argue that most people don't know what outcome they want.
I would argue that most people think they want something, but they haven't thought it through. So, they don't really know. And when you tell them to take certain actions, they'll take the action, they'll start to see progress, and then they might realize, well, that's not really what I wanted in the first place. So now I've got to kind of.
Right.
I've got to go back and change myself. So, what I often try to tell people first is that whatever you think you want, there's a good chance that you're not self-aware enough to even identify correctly the outcome that you desire. You're still living in some echo chamber of what you were taught, of what you were conditioned to believe that you need to be. Do you actually need to be happily married? Or is that just something that you believe because your mom and your grandmother told you that? Do you actually believe that you need to have kids? Do you believe that you need to be a mom or do you actually want to be a mom? I'll tell you this, I've had so many female clients and they did not ever actually want to be mothers. They're mothers now and they're very good mothers and they're loving mothers and they're dedicated mothers, right? But they didn't make that choice on their own before.
Well, you, yeah, because you said something earlier that's so accurate, I think, is that so much of it, a lot of how we live our lives is because we're programmed to live our lives that way.