Joseph Smith Ordained King of the World? - John Turner Pt. 39 | Ep. 2139

Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, the Joseph Smith podcast edition. I'm your host for today, John Dyn.

Today we are covering chapter 30 of John Turner's amazing book, Joseph Smith, the rise and fall of an American prophet. This chapter is entitled The Kingdom 1844. There's so much in it today. We're going to be talking about Joseph Smith running for president, Joseph Smith's position on slavery. We're going to be talking about the Council of 50. We are going to be talking about sort of the real beginning of the end in terms of opposition that rises up both making polygamy a real public scandal within Nauvoo prior to the release of the Nauvoo Expositor. And we're going to talk about the dissidents that rise up to oppose Nauvoo polygamy, including Emma. We'll be talking about Emma returning to the Relief Society to do her best to stomp out polygamy in the Relief Society, much to Joseph Smith's chagrin. And we're going to be talking about the King Fleta discourse where apparently Joseph Smith wants to be his followers' God. I don't know if I'm exaggerating, but that's that's what I took away from this chapter. John Turner, what do you think? And and we even have Joseph Smith accusing a man, falsely accusing a man of having a venereal disease. That's all that's in store for you today and much more on the Joseph Smith podcast and Mormon Stories podcast. John Turner, thanks for joining us. I mean, you're you're surely making our listeners already feel overwhelmed at the outset, but there was an overwhelming flood rising against uh Joseph Smith and his followers in the first half of 1844. So, we do indeed have a lot to talk about.

>> Yeah. And it's probably worth mentioning this is the penultimate chapter. Your book goes 31 chapters and then there's an epilogue. Is that what it's called?

>> That is correct.

>> So, this will be possibly the third to the last episode we do in our series. Does that sound right?

>> That sounds That sounds right. It's making that's making me feel a little bit sad, but we're getting to the tragically short end of Joseph's life.

>> Yeah. And that'll be 41 total episodes if I'm counting right. If we count the epilogue, man, a clean 40 would have felt so clean, but we don't want to shortchange. So, let's just let's just do it. Let's just embrace the 41. Really quickly, I want to thank everyone who uh supports Mormon Stories podcast and the Joseph Smith podcast. I do want to say that because we've gone so long, we actually have fallen behind again on donations for this series. We are continuing to pay John Turner for his participation. Thank you for anyone who's donated to this series. If any of you really value this series and want to do your part to support it financially so that we can pay John Turner and cover our production costs, we would really appreciate you going going to donorbox.org/josephsmith and donating whatever you can so that we um you know uh make it sustainable on both ends. Also, we have talked to John Turner about doing a sequel, a 10-part series on Brigham Young that we're also going to be accepting your donations for. I think we need to raise about $10,000 to make that financially sustainable. We've got a donor who's already stepped up, but uh you can either donate to the Joe Smith podcast fund or we'll set up a new link for the Brigham Young episodes as well if there's interest in that. But uh final thing I'll say is the Joe Smith podcast is obviously available integrated into the Mormon Stories podcast feeds wherever you consume Mormon Stories podcast. You can also consume the Joseph Smith podcast as its own playlist on YouTube on the Mormon Stories podcast YouTube channel or on Spotify or Apple Podcast as its own podcast. Any other business? John Turner, can you tell us about your shirt? I'm wearing a Patriots hat. What shirt are you wearing?

>> I'm wearing I'm supporting the prophet for president.

>> So for those listening, tell us what your shirt says.

>> That's Smith Rigdon 44.

>> And I'm assuming that's 1844, not 2044.

>> That is 1844.

>> 1844, not 1944 or 2044.

>> Our politics would have to get even more crazy to have a Smith Rigdon ticket in 2044, though these days what hazards to predict anything.

>> We do have AI. Maybe AI can bring them both back.

>> You never know.

>> Are you afraid if Joseph Smith comes back, John Turner, do you think he'll come after you and and accuse you of having syphilis?

>> Well, boy, that's a pointed question.

>> I mean, he he's clearly not he's clearly not above that. You know, I I sleep well at night, so I am I am not living in fear of Joseph Smith's return.

>> Okay. Good. Good for you. All right. Well, uh so let's go ahead and begin. And let's begin, if it's okay, John Turner, is there anything you want to say at the opening before I I uh pick the first topic?

>> No, you go for it.

>> Okay. So, uh, we're now squarely in 1844, and that's going to be the last year that we cover. Um, and let's begin by Joseph Smith knowing that this is a presidential election year and seeking redress for the persecution of the Saints both in Missouri and Illinois, I believe, from those that he knows are running for president before he decides to throw his own hat in the ring.

>> Sure. Well, and I think actually that's the right way to frame it because if you simply mention the fact that Joseph Smith ran for president, it sounds like one of, you know, a dozen or two dozen crazy hairbrained things that he did, you know, started a bank, uh, started merchandising companies, ran for president, established communities, but the context is pretty simple. The uh Joseph Smith and the Mormon people had been seeking redress since 1839 for what had happened to them in Missouri. They had petitioned Congress to intervene and compensate them for their losses, hold Missouri authorities to account. That had gone nowhere. And in the fall of 1844, Joseph sent letters to the four leading prospective presidential candidates uh asking what their position was on this issue. Would they pledge themselves to protect the Saints and help them seek redress for their past losses? And for the most part, those letters really fell on uh deaf ears. Um, Joseph actually got responses from uh several candidates, but he got no offers of help. Uh, John C. Calhoun uh wrote um who was one of the Democratic contenders uh for that party's nomination in 1844. He sent the longest response and essentially the response was uh this was a state matter. The federal government is not going to intervene. And Joseph was he was pretty chuffed by these um these responses. Nobody would help his people. And so it's really because of that that he decides to organize his own presidential campaign. He feels he and other Mormon leaders, they feel politically um adrift. Uh, they don't feel represented really by either party um on a state level. They don't feel as inclined to throw their support one way or the other um in 1844. And so Joseph decides to use a campaign to advance uh his own views and to and I think that in a way it symbolizes his discontent with American democracy, the leading parties and the republic.

>> And who was the outgoing president? So the outgoing president is uh John Tyler. Uh so everyone trying to refresh their memory from high school history in 1844. Um, the Whig candidate William Henry Harrison, an old war hero, had won the election and then he died weeks after the inauguration. And so John Tyler uh assumed the presidency. He was nicknamed "His Accidency" because, you know, nobody had particularly wanted him uh to become uh president and he wasn't really in lockstep with other Whig leaders. So, he was not going to be um he was not going to be renominated in 1844.

>> So, the Whigs didn't want him.

>> They didn't want him.

>> Okay. So, the leading Whig candidate was going to be who in 1844?

>> It's going to be Henry Clay.

>> Okay.

>> Um, again, and Joseph at one point in the uh run-up to the 1844 campaign, he was planning to support Clay. He he made a comment that he was a Clay man. Uh, that turned out not to be the case uh because Clay wasn't going to pledge his support. Uh, to the Saints.

>> And uh Calhoun was the leading Democratic uh nominee. Is that right?

>> Calhoun was understood perhaps alongside former President Martin Van Buren as a likely uh Democratic nominee. It turned out that the party was rather divided and James Polk um who ultimately becomes president uh he emerged as a bit of a compromise dark horse candidate.

>> Okay. Okay. And so nobody seems to want to, you know, support what, the church receiving a boatload of money as reparations or the church forcing Missouri to pay the church a bunch of money. Is that kind of what Joseph was hoping for? He was he asked uh or he he stated in the church's newspaper that the Saints should vote for the candidate most likely to render us assistance in obtaining redress for our grievances. And I think also it was a sense of of future protection uh as well because Joseph and his people, they're not just worried about the past, they're very worried about the the future of uh anti-Mormon agitation in Illinois.

>> Okay. And if you had to, I mean, you mentioned in your book that certainly the Mormons could easily play the role of the swing vote in determining which way Illinois went in terms of its electoral votes. And then it's I I guess it's absolutely possible back then that Illinois could have been a state that made the difference in deciding who was president. So, in theory, Joseph and the Mormons in Illinois could have wielded a lot of power, but it's clear that neither none of the leading candidates at the time were persuaded by that enough to buckle to Joseph's request. Any theories as to why, separate from whatever excuses they gave Joseph?

>> So, that's a good question. So I suggested the Mormons, they did have a certain amount of political clout in certainly in their own congressional district and in Hancock County more particularly, but in 1840 the Democratic candidate uh Van Buren had prevailed in Illinois by less than 2,000 votes. So it wasn't inconceivable that the Mormon vote could make a difference in the state. I don't actually know why the, you know, the presidential candidates didn't, you know, respond more favorably to Joseph's overtures. I would say on a state level, the Mormon vote was becoming increasingly toxic. So the, you know, the Mormons had generally leaned Democratic, but the Democratic governor at the time, Thomas Ford, when he ran for office, you know, he was openly opposed to at least elements of the Nauvoo Charter. And so actively courting the Mormon vote, uh, which is what it would have required for Joseph to throw his support behind any of these candidates wouldn't really have been a popular move. And I would say just on a national level, the Mormons at this point, they they just don't matter very much. Mormonism again becomes a bit of a national issue with Joseph's murder and then the uh expulsion and exodus of the Saints from Illinois. But as of early 1844, news about Mormon Nauvoo will make its way into national newspapers, but Mormonism is not a national level issue.

>> Yeah. And if my memory is right, it's not until 1860 and thereafter with Lincoln where all of a sudden the Mormons become like a national problem um after Brigham Young settles in the territories and announces that polygamy is an official practice. Um, so, uh, so I, but I, but I will ask this, like even even with the Civil War and with civil rights legislation later, eventually the United States is going to acknowledge that it is the federal government's role to intervene to protect discriminated minorities. That's how why we have federal civil rights laws. So, I mean, it it was a reasonable request for Joseph to say, "Hey, states' rights is not a good answer if they're literally committing genocide against our people. Protect us, federal government." That's that was actually a reasonable request on Joseph's part. Isn't that correct?

>> Well, you're right. And from our vantage point, uh, particularly in the wake of the Civil Rights movement, it seems very reasonable. But what Joseph does and what the Mormon people as a whole do in the late 1830s, early 1840s is they really put their finger on a weak spot in um the American uh republic, which is local local majorities, state majorities, sometimes more local majorities. They basically can oppress minorities with impunity and there's certainly um not going to be a vigorous federal response. So mobs can um assault uh abolitionists. Um sometimes with the support of the federal government um white settlers can expel Native peoples and in this case uh anti-Mormons can expel Mormons again in the Missouri case with the support of of state officials. And there's just no established system of recourse for those persecuted minorities. And Joseph is quite right in in his mind. The ideals of the American Republic are outstanding in terms of uh liberty, religious liberty, uh in particular for minorities, but without a federal enforcement mechanism, those promises are hollow. And so Joseph's complaint is, you know, what point what is the point of the federal government if it's powerless or does not arrogate it to itself the power to help um the oppressed and the afflicted.

>> Yeah, I actually, believe it or not, had some sympathy for that argument. Um uh, you know, cuz massacres are just not okay. They shouldn't be okay. But the Mormons weren't the only ones being massacred in that in that uh half century. All right. So you write that Joseph was furious at either the responses or the non-responses of the candidates. So how did Joseph go from being furious to uh, you know, deciding along with his associates, his trusted colleagues that he was going to run for president?

>> Yeah. So I think essentially there's a couple of months time period and these responses sort of filter back to him. Um and you know, he's he has the opportunity to work with those close to him which at this time include the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Joseph is also again very close to a man named William Phelps who had worked with him on the Egyptian project and was a really talented writer and um Phelps prepared a platform for Joseph's campaign sort of in keeping with the political spirit of the age. Uh, he titled it "General Smith's Views of the Powers and Policy of the Government of the United States." You know, this is the era of General Andrew Jackson becoming president, General William Henry Harrison becoming president. So, now it's time for He didn't he didn't go overboard. He didn't say Lieutenant General uh Smith, but it's time for time for General Smith. Um, and you know, Joseph is essentially calling on the U.S. government to return to the promises of its founding and to to make good on them as he sees it.

>> And uh so so what were some of the main uh planks or elements of of Joseph's platform? So the big issue of the day in 1844 is uh slavery, um particularly the intersection of slavery and territorial expansion and in particular uh the pressing issue is Texas. So about eight years earlier, American settlers in Texas had declared their independence from Mexico and a lot of southern slaveholders moved there. And already at the Declaration of Texas independence, that was sort of understood as a stepping stone to eventual eventual statehood. So, and this very much breaks down along party lines in 1844. Uh, most Democrats uh favor the annexation of Texas even at the risk of war against Mexico. Uh, and most northern Whigs in particular, who generally are anti-slavery at least in the sense of being anti the expansion of slavery, they oppose the addition of a slave state. And the Whigs become the Republican party in 1860 sort of. So it makes sense that uh there's at least some anti-slavery antipathy amongst that group.

>> Yeah. And there there's some fracturing of this two-party Whig-Democrat system by the 1840s, particularly as you get more resolute opponents of slavery in the North who start exploring third parties that are organized around um anti-slavery platforms.

>> And there's a realignment that happens. There's a real alignment for the for the for most white Northerners,

>> even those who think of themselves as anti-slavery and who think of slavery as evil, there's a lot of hesitation about abolitionism, which it is still uh for most Northerners is still a sort of toxic idea because they also fear the uh spread of a free black population. So the political dynamics of slavery are are very contested and complex.

>> So let's get into it. So the I think you know a a decade or two ago the church released uh a video in its um in its visitor center. I think it was called Legacy where I, you know, they portray Joseph Smith as uh, you know, someone who wants to abolish slavery and free slaves and he loves black people. Um, and I think even apologists today uh, want to paint Joseph Smith as even inspiring Abraham Lincoln to want to free the slaves. Tell us if that's uh, tell us if the story is a little more complicated than that.

>> Yeah. Well, it won't shock you to hear it's a little bit more complicated than that. I so to to start with if you will to start with the good side, I mean Joseph's platform in 1844 is pretty robustly uh anti-slavery. So he is on record in that platform as envisioning a free people from the east to the west sea. This is also very much a sort of Manifest Destiny platform in which um Texas, Oregon, but maybe even Canada and Mexico are going to get added uh to the United States. Um, so Joseph favors the addition of Texas but as a free state and then >> meaning not no meaning not allowing slavery. Not allowing slavery. What what he envisions is a pretty rapid process of emancipation >> uh by >> all of all slaves >> of all slaves by which Congress would purchase their freedom with revenue gained from selling newly acquired western lands. And I think Joseph envisions a total end of slavery by no later than 1850, which by the standards of American politics in 1844 is pretty uh is pretty radical.

>> And what do you you may not know, but like certainly it wasn't the Book of Abraham that was inspiring Joseph's position on slavery. Uh, what what do you attribute Joseph's uh abolitionist stance to? I don't believe he had that stance when he was in Missouri. Is that correct?

>> So the church in Missouri sort of at at one point uh William Phelps in his newspaper he had at least suggested something that sounded like um support for abolitionism and then backtracked on that. And and Joseph similarly um I think in 1834, 1835 um says that the curse of Ham, which is basically a curse actually on Ham's son Canaan, um that his descendants will be uh enslaved, that that is still in effect and Joseph understands that is applying to dark-skinned people of African descent. So he's not resolutely anti-slavery at the time. I actually I don't have a great answer for you, John. I would say Joseph simply drifts in an anti-slavery direction over the subsequent eight years or so. He makes a comment at a city council meeting in 1844 uh in which he favors making this is a quote all colored people free. And so he's he's sort of on record to this effect before he creates this uh presidential platform. I wouldn't say it's I think it's also well known that Joseph at least doesn't interfere with the ordination of um Elijah Abel, an African-American convert to the church. I don't think Joseph I don't think he spends very much time with uh black Americans. He also during his years as the mayor of Nauvoo um and I'm sorry this is going in a slightly different direction um he also makes it clear that while he's increasingly opposed to slavery, he is also not comfortable with the idea of racial mixing that in general he supports the separation of of the races. Um, he's worried that one of the effects of slavery will be the compulsion of uh white and black children to mix together. The the spectre of of interracial marriage um is something that almost all white Americans um seem to fear um at this time. Um, and Joseph as mayor once fined two black men for apparently intending to marry white women. I'm not aware of the details of the case. I think it's just a sparse entry in the city council minutes.

>> Yeah. And that's something that I I noted. You you mentioned in the book that Joseph, it wouldn't be fair to call Joseph egalitarian. Um, and you know, obviously I've covered on Mormon Stories podcast the series with Matt Harris about the the priesthood and temple ban for for black Latter-day Saints and how it extended all the way to 1978. And what what I concluded and what I think Matt Harris concludes is that the biggest fear, the biggest justification by far, starting with Brigham Young, Young, but continuing all the way to 1978, was the fear on the on behalf of Mormon church leadership, that that black men would have sex with would marry and have sex with white Mormon women. And that was I think even Matt would agree that was the prime mover from Brigham Young on. It sounds like that fear originates with not with with with Joseph Smith and not only Joseph Smith. I'm sure that was a pervasive fear at the time everywhere. But, you know, when the prophet has that concern or fear that there would be interracial marriage or interracial sex, then that gives subsequent prophets and church leaders uh the the liberty to perpetuate that concern or fear. Is that fair to pin Brigham's at least some of Brigham's fear of interracial sex and marriage on Joseph Smith?

>> So, it's a great question. So, and I'm sure you talked about this with Matt Harris. I love his book. Um, love Paul Reeve's books on the subject um as well. So what I would say is for Brigham Young in the late 1840s when he got wind of an interracial marriage within the church that he has such a strong visceral emotional reaction to it that it seems to shape it really shapes his thinking on the subject uh going forward. forward and and and contributes to his pronouncement that anyone um who has African descent, you know, anyone anyone uh cannot hold the the priesthood. So, he he just has just a really strong visceral reaction against that. I would I would suggest he wouldn't necessarily need to have gotten that from Joseph's uh president. Like you said, it is it's it's a pervasive attitude. Just as a as a counterpoint, uh, as a a a brief digression, um, listeners have probably heard of John Brown, who was, um, a zealously Christian white man who went to Kansas to violently oppose um, slavery. And while there participated in the murder of some pro-slavery settlers, uh, John Brown uh later uh tried to spark an uprising of slaves um by a raid on Harper's Ferry. So John Brown, and I'm bringing him up because he shocked other abolitionists by eating with black people and treating them as his social equals. I mean, he was in the 0.1% of white Americans who would do that. Um, I would say that Joseph's Joseph Smith's attitudes were, you know, in terms of social mixing, they were they were more typical. And he also just simply didn't have very uh many interactions with black people in his lifetime. They were they were rare. Um, so that's a long way of saying that, you know, I would say Joseph had pretty typical reactions. Brigham Brigham Young's reactions to this subject were, I would say, simply stronger. And you know, there there were other church leaders like uh Wilford Woodruff um who had he become uh president for instance instead of Brigham Young, he likely would not um have imposed the priesthood ban.

>> But Joseph was opposed to interracial marriage. Correct.

>> Absolutely.

>> Okay. Um, and and in that sense, it was it fair to call him a segregationist or not?

>> I mean, the term is a little bit anachronistic. Um, but yes um, it you know, allowing for that caveat. So, Nauvoo as a city uh in its statutes prohibited black men from voting, from holding civic office, from performing military service. So, you know, there's there's a general sense that um black Americans are not going to be integrated into the civic, political, social uh life of the city.

>> Okay. Um, well, that's helpful. So, you mentioned a list of other reasons why Joseph would run for president besides him being angry at uh the the reactions to the candidates. Do you want to list those? I've got them here, but if you want to list them, I'll let you start.

>> So, I you know, people sometimes debate like what the heck is Joseph Smith doing? Like he's he if there had just been a presidency of you know, Hancock County, he might not have won. So this this is just s sort of hairbrained and crazy. Does he is he crazy enough to think he can win or you know, does he really have other other goals? So I think Joseph sees this as a great opportunity to advance his ideas across the country. So one of the things that he does is later in the spring he sends out the apostles and others to electioneer uh for him across the country. This is going to enhance his profile, enhance the church's profile. It also in a way this is some reputational potential reputational enhancement for Joseph Smith. You know, you might have heard of him as this sort of crazy, out there, controversial religious prophet, but here this guy has some serious ideas for the country. Um, I'm sure Joseph is also thinking this this might ultimately help him broker the Mormon vote in 1844. I also never discount the fact that Joseph does things because they're fun, which >> mirth, it's the mirth argument.

>> The mirth argument. I mean, and we'll see uh later on in the spring when the um Saints organize a political convention for Joseph in Nauvoo. It's a lot of fun. People hoist him on their shoulders, carry him around the city, they burn barrels of tar, you know, it's an opportunity to have a bit of a party. Um, and Joseph is is is down with that sort of diversion, I think.

>> Yeah. So, we got mirth, we got uh revenge and anger, protection of the Saints, missionary work. It couldn't be bad maybe for the missionary work. All press is good press. Narcissism is something some people like to put on Joseph. Megalomania or or narcissism or whatever. And you also list one that I really connected to which was distraction, >> right?

>> That's true. I mean, so in as 1844 proceeds, it you know, there's one conflict uh after another and so yes, I think I could I can envision Joseph not just enjoying the political convention but spending time working with William Phelps on the platform. This is an opportunity for, you know, yet another uh new direction. Um, I tend to think, you know, Joseph was rational enough to know, you know, he wasn't going to become president. You know, he says things like, you know, we've got so many great speakers in the church. There's going to be enough oratory to to get me into the the presidency. Well, that's, you know, that's ridiculous. I think he knows it's ridiculous, but I think yeah, this is this is going to be this is going to be fun and it could have some positive benefits for the church.

>> Okay. So, you don't think he realistically felt or even like spiritually felt like he was going to win?

>> I don't think so. And he doesn't even really make comments to that effect. So, we talked back in 1837 in which he says he's got a word from the Lord that the Kirtland Safety Society Bank is going to prosper. Joseph doesn't say anything along those lines with the presidential campaign.

>> Okay. Um, but but fun and it's important to know that Brigham Young, they were planning on fanning out to all the states and and holding you know meetings and or what fundraisers in all the states to to garner support. No, I mean, Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff and others, they are out there electioneering um when they get the news that Joseph Smith uh has been murdered. And I think it's a mix of electioneering and more general meetings to um, you know, preach the gospel. But yeah, they're they're on the road for Joseph.

>> All right. Well, that's fun. And so let's quickly talk about the fact that Joseph saw the writing on the wall of Illinois probably not working out for him in the long term and what other states he had his eye on. A lot of people think we only went to Utah because you know, we got kicked out of Illinois. But the truth is Joseph was vetting states before he was martyred. Talk about that.

>> Yeah. So yeah, in a general sense, I see Joseph during the first half of 1844, he knows that he is in a vice in Nauvoo, that there's growing anti-Mormon opposition. I do agree. He can see the handwriting on the wall. He knows how this played out in Missouri. He knows it could happen again in Illinois. He knows he can't count on anybody, uh, the governor, the feds. Uh, he can't count on anybody to, uh, protect his people. And I think he knows, you know, they're not going to be able to protect themselves. So, they're they're probably going to have to, um, move. And so they're sort of scouting out uh potential settlements um not only for the purpose of relocation but for missionary purposes. They're they have this sort of um outpost logging operation in um Wisconsin. Joseph's previously thought about um needing to flee there. They're also thinking about um creating a Mormon outpost in Texas. I mean, Texas, the future of Texas is sort of up for grabs. That's a more that's a more serious uh thought. Um, and he also wants to investigate possible locations in Oregon, particularly should that become uh U.S. territory or California. I think Joseph, you know, he doesn't have certainly doesn't have a clear direction in terms of what the Saints should do in the future, but he knows that Nauvoo might become untenable. I think he's hoping to stay there until the temple's complete. Um, and you know, sometimes he he talks about Nauvoo becoming a place of pilgrimage for the Saints in the future. So, I mean, I think there's a lot of uncertainty, but he at least explores the possibility that they're going to have to leave.

>> Did you mention on this podcast California as a possible destination as well? Because you mentioned it in the book.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, I joked I wrote the new New Zealand. Zion 2.0 or 3.0. I don't know if if Nauvoo was kind of ever dubbed as Zion 2.0. Do you know?

>> Well, I I not formally. I mean, it's a I think it's I think it's understood as a stake of Zion.

>> Yeah. Um, and as we'll get to later in this chapter, you know, Joseph ultimately uh has this vision of all of North and South America being Zion with sort of Nauvoo at the at the center.

>> Yeah. Okay. Um, and then he he petitions the federal government to give him permission to raise an army of 100,000 soldiers. Like what could go wrong with Joseph Smith leading a 100,000 federal soldiers? Uh, you know, that is such such a far-fetched idea that yes, um, the Saints send a petition to Congress uh asking it to authorize Joseph Smith to raise a 100,000 volunteers to protect Americans who are immigrating to Texas, Oregon, and other western lands. Um, I I'm actually surprised that Congress even has any sort of response, but both houses of Congress and uh President John Tyler reject this idea.

>> Okay. All right. Well, let's go ahead and maybe move to the emergence of the Council of 50 because that's clearly one of the most mysterious, ominous, I don't know, speculative or speculatory aspects of of late of the late life of Joseph Smith. So, how does the Council of 50 emerge? What is it?

>> So this is in 18 this is in March of 1844. And >> Joseph dies what month?

>> He dies in June of 1844.

>> Oh my goodness. So we're like three three months away from his death here.

>> Right.

>> Okay.

>> And so this has always been well this had really been a super mysterious subject. Um, 10 years ago I just visual for anybody who can who's watching the video, the church uh released and published minutes of what William Clayton actually first called the Council of 50. It was at the time it was more often simply referred to as the Kingdom of God um on earth or the the kingdom. And Joseph understood this group I think in two ways. Number one, um, particularly whenever things began to fray, Joseph wanted a new group of people whose loyalty he trusted. So if you think back a couple of years, uh, right at the time that things are going south with John C. Bennett and there's a lot of tumult in Nauvoo. Joseph initiates uh a small group of men, I think 10 or 11 men into what becomes known as the endowment. And I think it's Heber C. Kimball or or Brigham Young. One of them comments that, you know, Joseph feels safe despite everything because he has this group that he can trust. And the Council of 50 is a little bit akin to that. Again, there's a lot of tumult uh in Nauvoo. And so, Joseph wants to form a a new group of men that he can meet. Um, they can discuss the church's plans. They're sworn to super strict uh secrecy. So, that's that's sort of the practical matter. Um, and then secondly, Joseph uh and his followers envision this in incredibly lofty terms as the Kingdom of God in embryo. Sometimes they describe it as the political sort of political arm of the church, the political arm of the Kingdom of God. Um, this is a group that's not going to deal with matters of salvation and damnation, but uh prepare uh to establish a theocracy um in which the liberties of all people will be protected. And that's stated very explicitly um in the Council of 50 minutes that we are going to go establish a theocracy uh in some western region of the country.

>> Yeah. And is that treasonous or not treasonous? I guess if it's not in U.S. territory, it's not treasonous.

>> Well, so that's a great question and interestingly toward the end of his life, you know, one of the last instructions that uh Joseph gives to William Clayton, hope I'm remembering this correctly, is to burn the records of the kingdom. Uh, fortunately, Clayton doesn't do that. He buries them and then um, you know, retrieves them so that we have them. But Joseph understands that um talk along these lines is is potentially risky. I don't know that I I don't know that one would have been able to really make a case of treason against Joseph Smith and his people for this. They're not um, you know, they're not actively conspiring against the U.S. government. They're just sort of preparing to uh eventually replace them.

>> Okay. Um, yeah. And this idea of the Kingdom of God on earth and the idea of a theocracy, that's I mean, it could be just words, but also, you know, it's people like to call Brigham Young's tenure managing the Utah territory as a theocracy and I guess you people probably called the Nauvoo kind of a mini theocracy. Mhm.

>> How how serious and literal do you think Joseph meant like a merging of civil government and religion formally as almost a Vatican City independent city-state versus just meaningless words and hyperbole?

>> Great question. So I think in terms of Nauvoo first of all, you know, Joseph is doing what he can to enhance the autonomy of Nauvoo to sort of govern itself. Um, along those lines, I I mean, I I think I take Joseph literally um in the sense of when the Council of 50 minutes talk about establishing a theocracy in Texas or Oregon or somewhere else in the West, I think they mean it. Um, and so I but I think it's also understood they also understand we cannot implement this now. It's it's more aspirational than actual uh for the time being.

>> Okay. All right. So, yeah, the the um he want Oh, first of all, I I wrote that that people were sworn into it with a death oath. Is that is that true? And what can you tell us about the death oath?

>> So I Let's see. I'm I'm actually looking looking at the minutes um while while we're chatting. So Lucien Woodworth, who's the father of Flora Woodworth, one of Joseph's plural wives, who subsequently uh has a civil marriage to someone else. Uh, he talks about the fact that every member of this council needs to be bound to eternal secrecy. They can't even tell their wives anything that transpires. And the man who broke the rule should lose his cursed head. And that resolution is passed unanimously and becomes a law of the council. Um, I don't I don't know if I don't know exactly what language uh they pass, but yeah, you know, it's understood this this has to be this very much has to be kept uh kept quiet.

>> And did you write the book that most if not all of the original additions to the Council of 50 were polygamous?

>> So yeah, if you look at the initial list, a lot of them all, but probably not all. There are even a few uh men added to the council who are not members of the church. These are people who are very friendly uh toward Joseph Smith. Um, the apostles uh at least most of the apostles are part of the initial group and then people are added um over the over the coming weeks. One thing I wanted to mention that I find striking about the way Joseph um organizes the council and I think this is this is illustrative of um thinking about his view of himself and his followers' view of him. So when the council organizes itself, it's either their first or or second meeting. Um, they sit in a semicircle arranged in order according to their ages. That in itself actually was is not a totally new thing. Um, I think the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and maybe some other church um councils had done that, but they they form a semicircle um and the chairman of the council, who is Joseph Smith, uh sits in front of this semicircle and I think that's a that's a good visual image for us. Um, and it it sort of symbolizes both Joseph's desire to sort of impose decorum on this setting, but then also you have all of these men forming the semicircle and Joseph at the center. You know, they're all focused on him. And when they think about this as the Kingdom of God, you know, establishing a theocracy, they talk about the voice of the people assenting to the voice of God. And Joseph in this setting, he is the mouthpiece. Um, he's the mouthpiece of God uh for this group. Um, and so, you know, I talked about these multiple purposes. Joseph wants this group for safety and then there's this lofty political goal. Um, and there is you know, there is this sense of um, you know, Joseph Joseph at the center of everything um exercising power um and I do find that image rather striking.

>> You you emphasize in the book that this Kingdom of God, Council of 50 thing is different than the church and I wonder and I'm sure Joseph was just kind of I don't want to say making things up as he goes along because that would be uh discourteous, but I wonder if he had it clear in his mind what the role of the church was and where the church stopped and started and what the role of the Kingdom of God on Earth was and where that that role stopped and started and how they overlapped in some sort of 19th century Venn diagram. Do do you have a sense?

>> Yeah. Well, f first of all, I don't think everybody on the Council of 50 had the same idea about that. So, Joseph talks about this essentially as the political arm of the church. This is a group that's going to make um decisions and laws that will affect everyone uh that is living in this future territory, whether they are members of the church or not. So unlike the stake high council or the First Presidency, you can have a few uh non-Mormons uh in this council. But I do think it's a little fuzzier than that. And Brigham Young pipes up a couple of times during these early minutes and says, you know, you really can't separate the um forget exactly how he puts it, the temporal and the sacred. You know, these things are inextricably uh combined. You can't you can't find some sphere of life um that doesn't pertain to the church. Um, so this isn't a group that can really get on with the task of governing because um, they're still in Nauvoo. They're still in the United States. Um, but as Joseph conceives of it, um, this is the political arm of the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of God really in some ways a political entity.

>> Okay. Um, and you may not know this, so I'm asking you this totally cold. When when sort of Mormon fundamentalists like Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, or even I'm not sure if Denver Snuffer's group applies, but also the FLDS kind of groups, they like to talk about the Church of the Firstborn as being something different from the mainstream LDS church. And I'm wondering if you know anything about that and if that if Joseph ever made clear what he meant by Church of the Firstborn. Did that have anything to do with the Kingdom of God or the Council of 50? Was that something totally different or do you have no idea? And that'd be fine if you didn't know.

>> Well, I mostly don't know. So that that phrase Church of the Firstborn is something that appears in Joseph's 1832 vision, which I took to simply be synonymous with Christ's true church. But from what you said, it might mean something different in in those contexts.

>> Yeah. I think once the FLDS and the fundamentalists kind of break off from the the mainstream Mormon church in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, they have it in their mind that there's the mainstream church that perpetuates authority, but there's got to be this other secret church that also continues the principle or the practice. And I anyway, I just I was trying to make sense of that relative to the church, relative to the Kingdom of God. And again, it could be just Joseph is making stuff up. Um, or or people are just interpreting things however they want to. Okay. So, um, really quickly, there's this part in the end where of the end of your section around the Council of 50 where Joseph basically says he wants he doesn't want a bunch of doughheads in the Council of 50. Um, can you tell us what he meant by that?

>> Well, so he doesn't want people by that he says he doesn't want people who just agree with him. He wants people to speak their minds freely and they they intend to make decisions on the basis of consensus and unanimity. So if somebody has a different idea, they're going to talk it through until everybody is satisfied with their decisions. Now, in my opinion, this is always a tricky thing for leaders. Um, uh, and leaders don't always have people who will just bluntly tell them they may be going in the wrong direction. And Joseph does have some people around him who can be blunt and speak their minds from time to time. I think Brigham Young tended to be somewhat in that vein. But I actually think the members of this council bend over backwards to acclaim Joseph and to honor his authority. So I don't think um I mean, the in terms of practically discussing some ideas, I think Joseph finds this group uh useful and a useful forum, but I do think it's a struggle um to avoid people just being sycophants.

>> Okay. Um, and then the final thing I have about the Council of 50 from this chapter is you mention uh at the end the the idea of Joseph being anointed being anointed as king. Now I I know that that for me that was one of the most alarming things I read in Fawn Brodie's book when Joseph has himself anointed king of the world. Is that what happens in this chapter or is that actual crowning event something that happens in the next chapter? And and the other thing I was going to ask is, you know, obviously the release of the Council of 50 minutes was something that historians waited for for a long time and there's been a lot of noise about how controversial the Council of 50 minutes could have been or were. Does this chapter cover the extent to which the council of 50 was was controversial and problematic or does that come mostly in the next chapter? So part one is when does king of the world happen? How does it happen? And then how much of the >> controversy of the council of

50 comes in the final chapter of your book?

So in terms of Joseph being received as prophet, priest, and king, that happens in April of 1844. So it's in this chapter. It's a few days after uh Joseph's King Flet uh discourse and the context of that meeting is sort of the conclusion of an effort to write a constitution for the kingdom of God. And Joseph had created I'm going to make it a semi-long story uh John Delin uh you'll have to indulge me.

So Joseph had asked a committee within the council of 50 to write a constitution uh for the group. It began something, their draft began something like, "We, the people of the kingdom of God." Sort of, sort of in a way, it hearkens to language um from the American founding. And um Joseph ultimately, you know, he he sets this aside. Um, you know, he tells them that theocracy is for the people to get the voice of God and then acknowledge it. Um, you know, there's a common phrase, a a common Latin phrase that Americans like, "The voice of the people is the voice of God." So, essentially, the voice of the people is supreme. Uh, Joseph sort of had his own twist on this. Uh, "The voice of the people *ascribing* to the voice of God." And as Joseph taught this, this was this was very clear. Joseph was God's mouthpiece, you know, God's chosen prophet. He was the medium through which uh the people received instruction.

And then there's sort of a cascade of praise and acclamation for Joseph Smith. Um, Hyram Smith, he explains that his brother is like Moses or Enoch, but uh, greater. Uh, William Phelps uh, adds that Joseph's work was like that of Jesus Christ. And then Erastus Snow offered a motion that the council receive Joseph as their prophet, priest, and king, which is a sort of common theological summary of the offices held by Jesus Christ. In a sense that in the Old Testament, there are prophets, there are priests, and there are kings. And Jesus filled all of those offices at once. And so this acclamation or this motion is really, in my opinion, it is putting Joseph at at least something like that level. And then once this motion is passed, council members shout hosannas uh to God and the Lamb. Um, and Joseph also has a comment. Uh, this is just after the church's semiannual conference and Joseph makes a comment there that God has made him the people's king and God. Um, and he knew that some people wouldn't like such talk, but he says, "If you don't like it, you must lump it. You must you must deal with it. You have to you have to have to accept it." And so, I mean, I think that's that's the context uh, you know, for for Joseph to be acclaimed as king in this sense. Well, there's the kingdom of God on earth. A kingdom has to have a king, right? Otherwise, it's not a kingdom. And so Joseph, Joseph stands at the head of this kingdom of God, and he is the mouthpiece uh for God. And ultimately, he says they don't need a written constitution because, as he puts it, "Ye are my constitution." He writes this as a revelation: "Verily, thus saith the Lord, ye are my constitution, and I am your God. Ye are my spokesman. Henceforth do as I shall command you." So, I mean, that's put in the plural, "Ye are my spokesman." But Joseph, Joseph is God's mouthpiece in this setting, and they therefore acclaim him um as king.

Yeah. And so when he says, "I am your," he basically says, "I am your God." Is that right?

Yeah. He says, "I am your king and your God."

That's I mean, were there were there followers that found that language problematic, or were they just used to that sort of thing from Joseph?

So that so that quote is something that he says publicly at the end, uh, the last day of this semiannual conference, and and there's an element of, you know, he's being a he's being a little provocative. He sort of, sort of, he sort of allows that, you know, he's being provocative. In the context of the of the um council of 50, of him being acclaimed as prophet, priest, and king, I mean, that these people, they are bending over backwards to heap praise on him. That's why I think it's a little bit ironic that he says he doesn't want any doughheads uh in the group. I mean, these men, one after another, they're sort of amping up the praise and agilation. And yes, these these claims, I mean, for all the talk of secrecy, Joseph is being pretty blunt in public, and there are definitely people in Nauvoo who find this objectionable. Um, but among Joseph's loyalists, no.

Okay. Okay. So, was he ever crowned king of the world? And was was that this, or was that in the next chapter?

No, I I would not say he's crowned king of the world.

Okay. He is he is acclaimed prophet, priest, and king.

Okay. I and I thought it was ironic that on the week that I'm reading about Joseph declaring himself a god, the god of his people, basically, is the same week that, you know, that photo comes out of of the president of the United States as Jesus. I just thought, well, that's kind of wild. And we're we're we're learning about Joseph Smith running for president. And so I just found that to be kind of a fun little coincidence in history.

Uh, some people do seem to enjoy um, an excessive amount of agilation.

So. Yeah. Okay. Well, um, all right. So, anything else you want to say about the Council of 50 before we move on to polygamy? Because polygamy takes up pretty much the rest of the chapter.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think what's interesting that we don't know is we I just say we don't know how this would have played out had Joseph not been murdered in June of 1844, had his had he led his his people somewhere else. I think with a lot of Joseph's initiatives, you know, there's always something new. There's always a new ordinance. There's always a new quorum. There's always a new uh sort of business plan. And Joseph, you know, he'll he'll often articulate a principle or plunge into something without maybe having a clear plan for how to live it out. I would put plural marriage in that category.

Absolutely.

Um, and I think the same is true here. you know, had had Joseph um, you know, had he established, as he said, um, had he been able to establish a theocracy either in Texas or Oregon or somewhere in California, what use would he have made of this council? We we don't know. Um,

Does chapter does chapter 31 talk about the council of 50 or

No, I it's it's pretty much here. I think the last meeting of the council is earlyish May of 1844, and I don't think it meets over the last six weeks or so.

And you may have already said this, but what are the most controversial things to come out of the council of 50 minutes other than what we've already talked about?

Well, I think what we've talked about is a lot of it. Now, so this is not atypical for um church history releases. You know, often times expectations are raised because something's been kept confidential for a long time and people haven't been able uh to examine it. I would say there's nothing in the council of 50 minutes that fundamentally changes our understanding of the last several months of Joseph Smith's life. The but they're very useful. They're very rich um in terms of these series of meetings in the spring of 1844 in which the church discusses this relationship um between the kingdom of God and the church. They're very useful in terms of seeing thinking about future plans. The council then resumes meeting under Brigham Young's leadership. And again, those wouldn't really change, those didn't change my understanding of what transpires in 1845 and 1856, but they flesh out a lot of those conversations.

Okay.

I do think in terms of what's controversial, I mean, that acclamation of Joseph as prophet, priest, and king, um, I I I mean, I think that's that's a striking.

And the God of his people. Um,

Was he he was ordained a king? King king of the world? I that I took that away from my memories years ago. Right. He was ordained king of the world.

I I would not say he's ordained king of the world.

Okay.

I would say he is acclaimed as prophet, priest, and king. And there's there is there's some followup comments about that. Like I think somebody once says tongue in cheek, like it wouldn't be that big of a deal for someone who's already king to become president of the United States or something like that.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Uh, and one last thing I'm remembering either D. Michael Quinn or or Grant Palmer or both talking about when Joseph was really fed up with the US government having a desire and even plans to unite with Native Americans to sort of instigate some sort of revolt or revolution against the United States. Do you remember talk of that? And did that come from the Council of 50 minutes, if you happen to remember it?

Yeah. So there is a lot in the council of 50 minutes on that subject because, well, the saints are a persecuted minority. The Mormons are a persecuted minority who've been expelled. Well, what's the most famous uh persecuted group in the United States that gets kicked off their lands? Uh, native people.

The Lamanites. You said it wrong. The

Sorry. The Lamanites. And so yes, there's a lot of there's a lot of talk in these minutes about uh missions to the Lamanites and possible, you know, future cooperation between the Mormons um and native peoples. Um, I don't I don't know that you could exactly find a a Brigham Young-like "Battle Axe of the Lord" quote. Um, but there's definitely definitely talk along those lines. I think also um, and you can find other sources for this, the these minutes are very useful for understanding the growing alienation of the Mormons uh from the United States. Uh, Joseph at one point uh, he's talking about the sort of corruption and weakness of the US Constitution, and he had a two-foot ruler uh called a 24-inch gauge or rule um, which was was in, I I think it was a

Masonic, right?

Masonic symbol.

Yeah.

Um, like symbolizing the the 24 hours of the day. And so Joseph, while he's talking on about this, um, the minutes say that he felt animated and he broke it in two in the middle. Just snaps it in two. And Brigham Young says um that, "As the rule was broken in the hands of our chairman, so might every tyrannical government be broken uh before us." And there's just this there's this sense that um, and this has been building for years, but that the the Mormons are just disenchanted with the US government, with the US Constitution, and it needs to be replaced with something that can actually protect the liberty of the people.

All right. Well, let's turn uh to uh Orasmus Boswick and the trouble he started.

So, yeah. And I don't know if we really want to call think about this as the trouble he started or the trouble that Joseph Smith, I don't know, developed or instigated. So, I don't know that much about uh Orasmus Boswick. I think he was sort of a newcomer to Nauvoo. I think by trade he was a blacksmith. He wasn't a member of the church. Uh, he had joined the Masonic lodge. And um, apparently Boswick was visiting with Joseph at his house. I don't know, I don't know what the occasion was. And Joseph, I don't know why. Maybe he's just trying to strike up conversation. Joseph asks Boswick, quote, "If he thought he had any spiritual wives."

Meaning, if Bostwick thought Joseph had spiritual wives?

Joseph says to Bostwick, "Hey, um, Orasmus, do you think I have spiritual wives?" Something like that. "What do you think of these, what do you think of these rumors about me?"

And Bostwick apparently says, "No, but I hear your brother Hyrum has three or four." Uh, or no, I I hear your brother Hyrum has wives all over the city and sleeps with three or four a night." And adds that, you know, "For a couple of of coins, a man could have what he wanted with almost any woman in the city. Like all all of you Mormon women, all of your Mormon women are prostitutes." And uh, Joseph finds Bostwick $50 for slandering his brother Hyram Smith. Um, now this is just, it's just a strange um, it's just a strange sequence of events because Joseph brings this up. Bostwick apparently, I don't even know if he's joking or speaks his mind. Who knows? Uh, Joseph finds him $50 dollars, which is a lot of money. That's a big fine uh to give somebody. And uh, Francis Higbee who

Wait, can I ask you a question first?

Yeah.

So, I mean, we know the John C. Bennett stuff happened. We know that Joseph has at least 25 wives by this point. We know he's brought Hyrum into polygamy. We know he's brought William Clayton and Brigham Young and others into polygamy. Um, you know, this surprised me, this quote about Hyrum, because Hyrum was left out of the polygamy loop for so long and opposed it. So it wasn't just more than an episode or two ago that Hyrum was even let in on the polygamy secret. And all of a sudden, there's rumors that he's sleeping with three or four a night. But at the same time that that at this point, there must have been dozens of Joseph's associates, I mean, the council of 50, who were starting to to um practice polygamy. And so I'm just wondering, I know that it's easy to say Bostwick was exaggerating and that this made Joseph mad, but sometimes where there's smoke, there's fire. So, do you have any reason to believe there was at least some truth or credibility to Bostwick's claims? Otherwise, why would Joseph have gotten so mad?

Well, I don't know. I mean, it it seems it seems on some level that Joseph is just picking a fight with this visitor to his home.

I mean, Joseph brings up the subject in the first place. We don't know why. And honestly, we don't really know exactly what Bostwick said. We know what, you know, Joseph accused him of slandering um Hyrum and the women of Nauvoo, but we we just don't know. So, we know Hyrum Smith does have a few plural wives or a couple of plural wives by this time. Is he sleeping with three or four a night with wives all over the city? Well, no. Did Bostwick exactly say that? We we just don't know. Um, but what kicks the conflict up a notch is that Bostwick engages Francis Higbee as his legal counsel. And Higbee tells Joseph he's going to appeal this fine to a circuit court in Carthage. So he's going to take this conflict outside of the city. Higbee um and his brother Chauncey have been at odds with Joseph for almost two years, really a couple of years. They, that pair of brothers, they are the sons of Elias Higbee, uh, who'd been a stalwart church member and close to close to Joseph. But Joseph um and others accused both Higbee's sons of sexual misconduct of various sorts um in the early 1840s, 1841, 1842, and then Higbee really became a public opponent of Joseph in early 1844. Uh, you mentioned um that accusation of venereal disease. So Joseph apparently accused um Higbee of uh picking up syphilis from a prostitute. I have no idea whether that's true. Higbee denied it. Um, but Joseph, I he makes that accusation at a city council meeting. So it's essentially a public accusation. Um, Higbee sues Joseph for slandering him. You know, that case is yet to play out. And now Higbee is telling Joseph he's going to appeal um the Bostwick case to Carthage. And Joseph, he knows this is dangerous because, you know, talk of polygamy in Carthage, well, that could stir up the mob. And this is what I find a little bit of a puzzle about about Joseph in 1844. The very best thing for Joseph to have done would have been to try to tamp down some of these conflicts. So he should have just let it drop with Bostwick initially. Um, or he should have found a way to settle this once Higbee got involved. Instead, uh, Joseph decides to eviscerate um to publicly critique um Bostwick and Higbee in print. Um, and he also publicly threatens them that he will give them into the hands of the mob, like apparently a Nauvoo mob. Um, so, you know, whenever there's a conflict during these months, Joseph just seems seems to turn the temperature up several notches.

Yeah. And so he asks Phelps to smear Higbee and he calls So Phelps calls Higbee a pimp.

Mhm.

Of all words. What did that word mean? Where does Phelps get off slandering Higbee as a pimp? Was Was Higbee leading a prostitution ring?

So, well, not as far as I know. Um, I'm not 100% sure if the context is Higbee or Bostwick, uh, in terms of being the bloodthirsty pimp. Um, but regardless, yeah, it's super incendiary. And you know, this is I mean, this isn't just an off-hand comment at a public meeting, which would also be provocative, but this is a this is a document that's printed in Nauvoo, "The Voice of Innocence," and that the Relief Society uh publicly endorses. Now, the ostensible reason for this is to defend the honor of Mormon women and um, I think also Hyrum Smith. Um, but yes, it's it's this is a very strong and really unnecessary pushback on Joseph's part.

Was anybody being a pimp? I just want to get that on the record. Was anybody acting as a pimp in Nauvoo?

Well, well, I mean, not that I know of. I mean, I'm maybe I'm sure you could find you could probably find rumors of that sort of activity in Nauvoo in the early 1840s, but I don't think I don't think that would apply to Francis Higbee. Um, and certainly not to Orasmus Bostwick.

Urged the city citizens to quote, "Kick the bloodthirsty pimp from the pale of social communion." I wonder if the word pimp meant something different back then.

I don't know. I'm going to have to I'm going to have to further investigate. It probably means what you think it means.

Okay. And then Joseph said that if the outrages didn't cease, he would quote, "Give them into the hands of the mob." That sounds like a death threat.

That is a death threat.

Well, that's serious if Joseph is literally making death threats to people.

Absolutely. It's super serious. And you know, that's that's a week later. Um, and again, I in my opinion, this is completely unnecessary. Joseph, I would say he sort of picked the fight with Bostwick to begin with, even if Bostwick was rude. You could let it slide, and then Joseph just just increases the temperature.

Yeah. Well, you know, the the thing is is polygamy was explosive. So people spreading rumors that that there was sexual promiscuity and/or polygamy happening, especially with the prophet's brother, it could bring the whole thing down. So I can see why Joseph freaked out.

Well, I can see why he freaked out. But surely if he is seeking to preserve the safety of himself and his people, the way he responds is entirely counterproductive.

Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. So, uh, um, so so then Joseph sort of uses it's almost like the Relief Society. You mentioned that Emma hadn't really attended a Relief Society meeting in two years.

Since all that polygamy denial kind of stuff happened and the allegations against Joseph, what with his dead brother's uh widow. Since all that had happened, it sounds like Emma had checked out from the Relief Society. The Mormon church never teaches us that. They just tell her she was the first president. um a and that she was the leader of it. But um, it looks like Joseph resurrects the Relief Society to use the women as another almost cover for his sexual exploits. Is that fair or unfair?

So what I would say is Emma. Well, so you're right. So Emma had not attended the Relief Society since the spring of 1842. I do think there had been there had been Relief Society meetings without her. We don't have an explanation for why she didn't attend. My own sense is that she felt betrayed by the group. Um, you know, she felt betrayed by the fact that a number of Relief Society leaders and other members had become her husband's secret plural wives. But she does not hesitate to spring into action uh when um the Relief Society endorses this "Voice of Innocence" uh pamphlet and it

So the pamphlet was written by

It was written by Phelps, although I think Emma became actively involved and was part of the editing uh process. And the Relief Society, there's so many members, they can't all fit into uh Joseph's red brick store. So, they hold four separate

You said there were a thousand members of the Relief Society by this point.

Thousand members of the Relief Society, and you know, these this is remarkable theater. So when Emma presides over these meetings, she reads passages from the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants that denounce polygamy and she exhorts the women to follow the teachings of President Joseph Smith from the stand, which is, it's such a lovely, lovely phrase. Ben Park writes about this at some length in his "Kingdom of the Nauvoo" book, which I I found helpful, but um, you know, what she's at least implying is no matter what Joseph might be teaching in public, women should excuse me, in private, women should follow his public teachings and the the formal teachings of the church. And then uh, "The Voice of Innocence," that the society of course votes to approve it. That uh document resolves that polygamy, bigamy, fornication, adultery, and prostitution be frowned out of the hearts of honest men. And it thanks Joseph for defending um his brother Hyrum. And the Nauvoo Neighbor newspaper then publishes "The Voice of Innocence," this this essay. So, in a sense, you could say that both Joseph and Emma get something um out of this. You know, Joseph, in a way, gets a public vote of confidence from Emma and the women of Nauvoo. And at the same time, Emma repudiates her husband's secret teachings.

Yeah. And we we already had that statement. "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery and having seven wives when I can only find one." We we've already covered that. Joseph said that in a previous chapter. Is that right?

I I think that's correct. Yes.

So, this is similar. It almost seems like Joseph is using Emma publicly to deny that polygamy is happening and to denounce it. First of all, that feels problematic because it it it's Joseph allowing Emma to deceive everyone when she's a practicer of it. She approved at least four plural wives of Joseph. So, this is an example. I guess now I'm putting this together. Emma is said later to have denied that polygamy ever happened. Some people like Michelle Stone and those who support her idea that Joseph never practiced polygamy want to say believe Emma. That that Joseph never practiced it. But this is an example of not just Emma lying and to cover and deceive people that polygamy wasn't happening. It's also an example of Joseph allowing someone to lie on his behalf and mislead not just the membership but also the general public. Is that all true?

I think that's true. Now, I think Emma, it's true that Emma sanctioned in May of 1843, she had sanctioned Joseph's sealing to the Partridge Sisters and the Lawrence sisters. To be fair, it seems that when she did that, she didn't understand or Joseph had not told her that those would be marriages that would be consummated on earth um as well as of eternal uh significance. So, in a way, she's deceived by Joseph into giving her blessing. It doesn't really seem that Emma ever really accepts um Joseph's polygamy. She she and he seem to have reached a truce on the subject in the fall of 1843. But in a way, I you could see this you could see this as Emma supporting the deception. You could also see this as Emma taking the opportunity to assert her own views on the subject.

No, for sure that's happening. And that was the second thing I was going to say is that how did Joseph feel about Emma telling everyone that what Joseph is telling people behind the scenes isn't valid? I mean, that whole council of 50, most of them were polygamous. All those guys who got the second endowment were polygamists. I I do wonder if Joseph was bothered by Emma publicly contradicting his private celestial doctrines, but I'm still, I mean, certainly Emma knew that William Clayton was a polygamist. Certainly Emma knew that um that that Hyrum was a polygamist by this point. Um, that Brigham Young was. Certainly she heard all the stuff about John C. Bennett and knew that she was. So, I I just, it doesn't seem like we could let Emma off the hook. Cuz she's not saying, "Yes, we've been practicing it, but now I'm going to tell you we should all stop." She's saying she's saying to them, "This is what the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine of Covenants say. This is a bad practice. None of us should do it." Without acknowledging that it is currently going on and that she is that that she's complicit or was complicit. So there is deception on Emma's part in my reading.

Are you saying that's maybe not fair?

No, I mean, I don't think that's unfair. I mean, I think Emma is clear. So one thing that has been true throughout the story of the previous year. So this is in March of 1843. So, Joseph partly uh reveals his understanding of plural marriage to Emma. Um, they have bitter, bitter months of strife on the subject. She pushes back. She forces him to abandon some of his plural wives. Publicly, Emma is resolute in her loyalty to Joseph. So even in the midst of some bitter strife in the summer of 1843, publicly she's hand-in-hand with her husband and supporting him against his enemies. And so you could see that this as a continuation of sort of that dance. Um, or you could also see this as sort of a rare time in which Emma can publicly assert herself and weigh in. Now, I agree. Of course, had Emma just been totally open and forthright, she would have said, "Well,

Hyrum, Hyrum is practicing polygamy, right?

And so am I. And so so is Joseph, and so are most of the council of the 50. Right.

Right. Right. I mean, you know, perhaps Emma really believes she's been able to constrain um Joseph even more than she was. But she has mostly forced Joseph to back off. Um, you know, Joseph, to the best of our knowledge, he really doesn't have anything to do with his plural wives in the last, you know, six or seven months of his life. So, in a way, Emma's at least fought him to a draw. And I see I see her, you know, using this as an opportunity to assert her will um at at this time. Well, uh, I I I think it makes total sense that she wanted to kill polygamy and that this she seized a great opportunity to try to do that. I do think she's being deceptive here, but I also think she's being courageous and trying to to end a bad practice. Is it fair to say that Joseph is allowing her to deceive everyone because he knows the practice is continuing and now he's using Emma as the voice to deceive people that polygamy never existed, let alone isn't being perpetuated? That's clear deception on Joseph knowing deception on Joseph's part. Correct.

So, I mean, so for starters, I think Joseph's outrage is mostly false outrage. It's mostly manufactured outrage. Um, there's an interesting

And he knows Hyrum's practicing polygamy, right?

Certainly knows Hyrum's practicing polygamy. Now, he still might think it's um I suppose he could still think it's slander for Bostwick to say that he's got wives all over the city and sleeps with three or four every night. But um, it's a little bit hard to know exactly where Joseph is emotionally. So during the first Relief Society session on the subject, there's a comment in the William Clayton journal that, well, Joseph, by the way, he's in his office next door. So usually when the Relief Society is meeting, Joseph can listen in. Um, and Clayton notes that Joseph was weeping and seemed very sorrowful that morning.

Yeah. What was that about, do we think?

Unfortunately, we don't know. So, Clayton doesn't explain. I suspect that the furor over Bostwick and Higbee, it might have renewed some tension uh between Joseph and Emma. Now, are they going to are they arguing about whether or not Joseph's being um falsely outraged? Are they arguing because Emma is still angry at Joseph for polygamy? Is he angry or sorrowful that she's publicly repudiating his his doctrine? Uh, we we just don't know. Or is he worried? And or is he worried that the jig is up and that this whole house of cards is about to come falling down because this is yet another public scandal that is is going to be worse than the John C. Bennett scandal because he's not going to be able to contain it this time like he was the previous couple times the these polygamy scandals broke out in Nauvoo. Well, he should he should have been increasingly worried because Bennett, dangerous as he was to Joseph, he leaves Nauvoo and he's essentially a one-man show. And what's happening week by week, month by month in 1844 is you have a growing number of men who are more determined in their opposition to Joseph. And they're not leaving. And the risk to Joseph is growing that if these men worked together um, they could they could bring him down.

Yeah. All right. Um, yeah, it seems like Joseph should be crying over his entire religious enterprise imploding, being about to implode, but who knows? It could have been a lot of different possible things. All right. Um, so, uh, should we move to the Foster brothers now?

Sure. There's all these brothers, uh, the Laws, the Higbees, the Fosters. Yeah. It's really a strange coincidence.

Yeah. And the Smiths.

And the Smiths on the other side. That's true. Um, so this Well, we can do this

Johnson, the Johnson brothers.

Yeah, we can do this in a slightly more abbreviated way. Um, but it's another example of Joseph picking fights with people and turning people who were uneasy about his leadership into implacable opponents. So, the Foster brothers, or Robert and Charles Foster. Uh, Robert Foster is a church member. Um, he was a physician. Apparently, by his own account, he was the physician attending to Joseph Smith Sr. at the end of the latter's life in his final illness. Um, he had been pretty close to Joseph at times over the previous uh years. Um, also at at times their relationship had been a little bit frosty. Robert Foster uh owned and operated a hotel in Nauvoo known as the Mammoth uh hotel. Joseph may have seen that as a competitor to some of his uh building plans, but he was certainly someone who had been close to Joseph and I don't think was looking to be um, you know, an implacable opponent of his. So at a um, I think February, February 1844, maybe early March 1844 meeting in Nauvoo. Um, Joseph accused uh Charles Foster um, the Foster brother who is not a church member, of having uh penned an anonymous letter critical of Joseph that was published in a New York newspaper, basically accused Joseph of being um a power-hungry prophet who defrauded his followers out of their temple donations. Um, Joseph made this accusation. Foster uh said something in return, and so Joseph fined him $10 for making threats and disturbing the meeting. Now, when I say Joseph just fined people, Joseph was mayor of Nauvoo and I think a justice of the peace, or at least um the uh chief chief justice of the municipal court. So you have this strange situation, right, where uh Joseph could be giving a Sunday sermon, somebody says something he doesn't like, and Joseph can fine him. Um, and Robert Foster then objected, and Joseph threatened to fine him as well. Um, and then, and this is just, this is a crazy story. Um, amid all these crazy stories, a uh man named Morinus, that's how I say his first name, Morinus Eden, was not a church member. He came and told church leaders that Joseph's opponents had invited him to a secret meeting. Eden, by the way, is one of those select non-Mormons who was later invited to join the council of 50. So he's clearly friendly with Joseph. And apparently at this meeting, or at least per Morinus Eden, Robert Foster claimed that Joseph had tried to seduce his wife Sarah. Uh, Robert Foster had been out. The prophet had come calling and had taught her the spiritual wife doctrine. And per Eden, when Robert Foster returned to his home, he found his wife dining with the prophet. And Joseph then sort of awkwardly excused himself. Sarah Foster didn't want to say what they were uh what had happened until Robert Foster drew a gun and threatened to shoot her. Um, so who knows? Um, Joseph, uh, later in March, he and William Clayton rode to the Foster residence. They found Sarah Foster nearby. Joseph asked her whether he had taught polygamy to her, whether he'd proposed illicit intercourse. Uh, and she emphatically rejected uh any of that. So, I don't know what to make of this episode. Um, it's it's just it's crazy to think that Joseph would have attempted to seduce Sarah Foster a week after clashing with her husband at a public meeting. And for Robert Foster to tell this story, you know, it casts doubt on his wife's fidelity um and doesn't necessarily make him sound all that great either. Maybe Joseph just manufactured the whole story in order to accuse his opponents of slander. I think that's, you know, that's also a possibility. But if so, manufacturing the story, you know, that even that that kind of in of itself spreads rumors about about Joseph's behavior. So what I see is just again, Joseph acting in a really provocative way, picking fights publicly, turning men who were critical of him into outright opponents, and again just dialing up the temperature. For me, the simplest answer is that Joseph propositioned Robert Foster's wife, because Joseph certainly propositioned so many other men's wives, including William Law. So, why wouldn't the account of Joseph propositioning Robert Foster's wife? And he could have been doing it as a way to humiliate Robert Foster. Um, the word cuckold comes to mind. I know it's a harsh word, but it happens in in sort of a dominant hierarchy. The the the higher-powered individuals sometimes use sex as a way to humiliate people lower on the power status rung. And of course, it becomes the Fosters and the Laws who are kind of important, I believe, in the Nauvoo Expositor.

Mhm.

And it just it just makes all the sense in the world that Joseph would do that.

It's the Higbees, the Laws, and the Fosters, right? And

One man with the last name of Ivins, I forget his first name.

So yeah, that's possible. That's possible, John. If that's true, and if the Jane Law proposition or marriage is true, when I I talk about provocative and incendiary behavior, that would be the most provocative and incendiary probably that you could have been in this situation. If it's not true, um, then regardless, Joseph picking this public fight and then putting this story into circulation is also incredibly incendiary. So either way, Joseph is behaving in ways that are extremely self-destructive. Um, and if that's sort of a megalomaniac thinking that he's immune from possible danger, I mean, that that's a that's a possibility, you know, no matter what the truth of the story in this instance.

And then Joseph holds a general conference and he has a really interesting message about his relationship to God. Do you want to share that?

Sure. Uh, so I think we're getting into the the King Follett discourse. So, just to set the stage for that, Joseph knows there are real doubts about his leadership by early April 1844. I mean, this is these have been crazy times um in Nauvoo. And you know, if I lived in Nauvoo, I would not be missing a Sunday meeting during these months because anything can happen. And I think even if even non-members of the church, they're showing up, I think, to see what what Joseph might say and who he might pick on next. And so when this conference uh begins on April 6th um 1844, the 14th anniversary of the organization of the church, Joseph tells um the thousands of saints uh who come that he was never in any nearer relationship to God than at the present time. And he tells them he'll show before the conference closed that God was with him. So, you know, those those moments where you know, you hear about a politician who's maybe had a rocky stretch and there's like a State of the Union address coming up or some other big speech and everybody puts a whole lot of weight on it thinking, this is the time this person can kind of get back on track. It's a scenario like that. So, Joseph, Joseph, Joseph has to deliver an A+ sermon. And I'm going to say it seems like he does. He This is classic um vintage Joseph Smith. And while Joseph's implacable opponents don't seem to have liked it, it does seem like in general church members um were moved by what Joseph had to say. Yeah. Like as his as his church is imploding in sexual scandal, he feels like he must uh reassure the members that he is closer to God than ever. And then a double rainbow appears. And it reminds me of that double rainbow song that came out about 16 years ago. Double rainbow all the way across the sky. So intense. That's his miracle.

That's it's a it's a good omen, right? It's an auspicious sign. And yeah, the sermon the sermon is classic Joseph Smith. He he begins with, and I think this is this is a good window into Joseph's effectiveness um as a religious leader or as a leader more generally. He begins with not the recent tumult within the church, but he begins with something of just practical concern to people. There's a longtime loyal church member named King Follett. I used to think this, why they call this guy King? Well, they that was his that was his given name. Um, he had endured all sorts of persecutions in Missouri. He'd been imprisoned in the spring of 1839, and then he just gets killed um in a freak accident while um stoning up a well. And it must have been miserable. He dies 11 days later. So I presume he just suffered a lot during those 11 days. So Joseph references that, and he intends for his theological response to provide consolation. But he goes about it, and I think in an unusual way. He basically says, "We've got to go back to first principles. Who's God? What is a human being? What's the relationship between God um and humans?" And Joseph says, "I've got to be able to provide compelling answers to those questions. If I do not do it, I have no right to revelation." And, you know, people are calling me a false prophet. But if I can bring you to God, all persecution against me will cease. And then, you know, Joseph, Joseph publicly and clearly states some principles that he has articulated previously, but maybe not quite so directly. He says, "God is a man like unto one of yourselves, and you have got to learn how to be a God yourself." And the fact that humans have this divine potential, that should be consoling um in the face of death. Yes, you know, your earthly body, it can be bruised, battered, and extinguished. But faithful men will be heirs of God, joint heirs of Jesus Christ, to inherit the same powers and exaltation that Jesus Christ possessed. So death is a necessary step toward eternal glory. Uh, then Joseph goes back to the first verses of Genesis, one of his very favorite parts of the Bible, and he insists that God didn't create the world out of nothing, that matter is eternal, and that things that are eternal uh cannot be destroyed. Um, and again, therefore, you know, the body's dissolution, you know, that is not that is not forever, and this should also be a comfort for mourners um and a spur and a a an encouragement for church members to fulfill their responsibility to their ancestors. And what what do you, as as someone who has some level of uh Christian practice? What do you think about the theosis elements of the King Follett sermon that form the basis of the couplet, "As man is God once was, and as God as man may become"?

Yeah. So it's a great question. So, first of all, I credit Brigham Young for basically uh coining that couplet rather than Lorenzo Snow, to whom it's usually attributed, but that's a side point. So yeah, for me, as a Protestant Christian, I do I definitely see Joseph's views departing from sort of classical Christian statements on that subject, uh, which focus on humans, I would say, developing the attributes of godliness and holiness rather than being exalted um and becoming gods themselves. Um, but yeah, I guess I've been I've been living with um early Mormon history for so long that I don't know, I don't really get my hackles up um about Joseph's view. I think what I what I like about the way Joseph goes about this is I like the purpose of consoling those who mourn and grieve um with these ideas. The I, you know, the the idea of thirsting after eternal power, you know, that doesn't that doesn't resonate uh, that obviously doesn't resonate with me. I was certainly taught that growing up, that Mormons who are exalted, who reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, become gods and get their own planets and get their own billions of spirit and eventually mortal children. That that was part of my Mormon upbringing for sure.

Well, absolutely. And you know, th this sermon um, you know, there are several transcripts of it. I know at times there have been high-ranking church leaders who have thought so highly of it, they would like to have seen it canonized um and be included in the Doctrine and Covenants. It's it's a pretty good distillation of uh Joseph's uh theological theological vision. Um, what I think is striking is, I mean, we can make, I mean, I'm happy to make theological critiques of some of these ideas. What I think is a shame is here is a response to the crisis that does at least resonate with most church members. And, you know, for months, what Joseph's been doing in public is threatening to kill Bostwick and Higbee, picking a fight with uh the Foster brothers, talking about his enemies. If Joseph had done more of this sort of sermonizing, it would have been a lot better for the um health of the church and his leadership.

Yeah. You mentioned that it it was also in this talk where Joseph alludes to a sense of his own death. Do you want to talk about that?

Sure. So toward the end um he does he stops, he reflects on his life um and he says that people misunderstand him and he he sort of allows that the things that he claims are incredible. Perhaps he's thinking about, you know, his visionary claims, his um claims to revelation. And he says, "You never knew my heart. No man knows my history." He says that he will be vindicated after his death. Um, I think a lot of people are familiar with the "No man knows my history" phrase from Fawn Brody's uh biography. You do get a sense uh reading those words that Joseph, he does seem to have some sense that the end might be near. It's the sort of thing that someone might say um, you know, toward the end of a life.

Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking he could have been thinking about polygamy there. His assertions that he was God or greater than Christ, that he's creating a theocracy. Just his accumulation of massive power. That I think at some point he said he's done more, as much or more than Jesus Christ. Like his claims became bolder and bolder. There's a lot of stuff he could have been talking about when he said, "No man knows my history." Right? There's a lot of stuff. I mean, I will say one of the challenges of writing a biography of Joseph Smith is

He's rarely in his public statements, he's very rarely that self-reflective.

Yeah. And so it's a, you know, it's it's easier to, this isn't an unusual problem for a biographer, but it's easier to document what Joseph's doing, um, what his activities are, what his ideas are about this or that. It's easier to do that than it is to get inside Joseph and to figure out what he's thinking, what his emotions.

are, why he's doing some of the things that he's doing. This is one of those moments where I do think he's letting us partly inside and just wish we had we had more of that.

I'm going to guess that he feels like he's bringing people to Christ. He feels like he's improving on Christianity. He's making a way of salvation for all, not just those who get baptism at the right time with the right, you know, situation. And I think he probably really believes that he's going to make it so we can be one big huge happy family in the next life. And there's no other real theology that did that. And I I bet he also Christian theology I should say. And I bet he also felt like a lot of the churches were dead or lifeless or distracted and that he was providing a of a a theology and a and a set of doctrines that really inspired people to give everything to God and Christ because in fact so many people were willing to give literally everything to the church and to him. So I I can see all sorts of reasons why he felt like he was doing a massive amount of good and that he was profoundly misunderstood.

Well, sure. And it's clear that thousands of people respond to what he teaches. I mean, he sets people in motion. Um, you know, from 1830 on, uh, you know, you have scores of people who move from New York to Ohio, hundreds, uh, who moved to Jackson County, Missouri in the early 1840s. Thousands of church members are streaming into Nauvoo, many of them coming from uh, the British Isles. and Joseph I and I don't know to how to balance this with what's a also a clear sense of foroding but he also says the day after the King Flet discourse he says that he has received a great grand and glorious revelation about where Zion is and that It's no longer just Jackson County, uh, Missouri. Um, instead, the whole of America is Zion. Uh, we're going to build churches across North and South America. Nauvoo is going to become a place of pilgrimage where the saints come not just to be baptized for their dead, but to be washed and anointed for them same as for themselves. Um, and then people returned to their homes. They would build up, you know, churches um, everywhere. Um, and you know, I I I wonder, you know, there's some talk about Kirtland that way when it's all falling apart in um, 1837. And so I wonder if some of that is sort of, you know, just grandiose or happy talk in in the light of the storm clouds on on the horizon. Um, I'm not sure, but it was that sort of grand vision. um and also of ritual activity that people could do things for their salvation and for the salvation of their loved ones that that they were told they could count on. I mean that did set a lot of people into motion.

The first endowment, the second endowment, baptisms for the dead, all sorts of ordinances that don't exist in mainstream Christianity.

Mhm.

Plural eternal marriage. Yeah.

Sealing, you know, sealing families together forever.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think Joseph when he surveys he clearly he surveys the religious landscape around him in the 1820s and he says, "I can do better than this." And, you know, with a council of 50, he's basically looking at the US Constitution and saying, "That was promising, but we can do better." And

he looks at Jesus and says, "I may be able to do a little bit better."

Maybe. He looks at God and says, "I think I might be able to do a little bit better.

It's an aspirational religion,

an aspirational human." Um, let's go ahead and we wrap up this chapter. Talk about the brief attempts to kind of pacify the laws and the higges and how that didn't work.

Yeah. So I mean I find that an an interesting dynamic. I think for people who had been close to Joseph and I would definitely put the the laws in this category and maybe Robert Foster as well. It was pretty hard for them to it was hard for them to break with Joseph and I think a lot of them would have preferred some sort of uh reconciliation. So, you know, there's some back and forth with um William Law. Uh there are some meetings with uh Robert Foster and even Chanty Higgby who'd been excommunicated really alongside John C. Bennett. Um and even after this group of denters um begins their own church meetings on Sundays, I think a lot of these these men might have been willing to reconcile with Joseph. Um, now at a certain point maybe the divide was too wide and they might have demanded too many concessions from from Joseph. But I think you you know I I I think going in their own direction really wasn't what they wanted. Um, and they really only start meeting on their own after a church council um, exccommunicates or cuts them off. Yeah. Um, you you write that William Law wanted Joseph to renounce polygamy and that Joseph refused. That that shows me Joseph still was very much a believer and a supporter of polygamy. Is that fair or not fair?

I think that's fair. I mean, that's sometimes been a bit of a point of controversy. So, you know, that statement is from the William Law Journal for which we don't have the original. Um, I include it anyway because I roughly I roughly find it um an account that lines up with with other sources. So, You know, some people have suggested that have suggested that Joseph renounced polygamy at the end of his life. I know the Joseph Smith papers project has documented uh some plural marriages in Nauvoo. I think as at least as late as May of 1844, not of Joseph, not Joseph's own marriages, but of of other o of other men. Brigham Young, I actually find this probably an accurate comment. You know, his his later comment was that by the end of his life, Joseph was worn out by polygamy. I think he was not actively really advancing it in the last half year of his life, but he also didn't renounce it. um had just I think like I've like we talked about early in the episode I think it had been such a point of strife between him and Emma and she had sort of fought him to a draw on the issue that it was at a bit of a standstill.

That's interesting. I I've I've spoken with some ex Mormons that have experimented with nominogamy and often times when that uh goes south they express very similar feelings that it was just too complicated, too hard. So uh Joseph led the way um in that regard. Uh it looks like the the laws, the higgies and the fosters are all excommunicated which is on brand. Joseph always and the church since then has tended to excommunicate critics even when their criticisms were accurate or true or even helpful because I think it probably would have been good for Joseph to disown polygamy and and stop it and distance himself from it. If he had listened to the laws and the higes and fosters, maybe he wouldn't have been killed. But he didn't. And in instead he cuts them off probably to his own chagrin.

Yeah. Yeah. And I would say that, you know, you know, it's interesting this transpires in midappril of 1844. I mean, these men have been bitterly at odds with Joseph for months. Um, and I think everyone despite the incendiary responses from Joseph, I think everyone was hoping for some sort of reconciliation that would, you know, preclude um more enmity, but nobody sees, you know, no, nobody really sees a path uh to that. And then there's this final scuffle where the Spencer brothers, uh, you know, and others are are, you know, trying to what? Imprison Joseph or get Joseph in trouble. Porter Rockwell gets involved. Ultimately, uh, the Higgies and the Fosters are fined. Joseph has all the power because he's mayor and head of the legion and prophet and um, you know it it kind of ends in in just pure disillusionment from the from the you know the laws the higgbies the fosters and what the cows is that right

uh Austin cows

Austin Kels yeah

so yes and you know there's some dramatic scenes Charles Foster during that scuffle that you were alluding to, he pulling pulling a gun on Joseph Smith. Um, and somebody else wrenches it away

and Joseph grabs the Foster brothers like physically grabs them.

Right. Yeah.

So, so let me let me see if I can get us to a conclusion on this. What we've basically been talking about um last episode and this is this slow buildup of conflict between Joseph and a number of high-ranking church members and in some cases not so high ranking church members and other residents of Nauvoo. And of course this is this is serious. Um and these men have the potential to threaten Joseph's leadership. But uh through April of 1844, this has sort of all been internal to Nauvoo. um these with the possible exception of Charles Foster, these men have not been um conspiring with anti- Mormons in Illinois. They're not publishing material critical of Joseph in Western Illinois newspapers. Um, but this is about to get a lot more serious because now that they're outside of the church and um sort of let's just say irrevocably estranged from Joseph. They are making plans to make their opposition public. And that is what um ultimately brings things to a head in May and June of 1844.

And you mentioned at the end that that the laws and the higges and the fosters and the cows purchase a printing press. And we know what that's going to be used for.

They purchase a printing press. They're also becoming actively engaged in um legal challenges to Joseph. Um which along with the Nauvoo expositor uh that is another thing that is you know driving the conflict beyond the confines of Nauvoo.

All right. Well, I want to begin next episode talking about the Hig Higgby filing a lawsuit against Joseph and him getting smeared. uh again, but we don't have time to to do that now. So, I'll just say what a chapter, John Turner. This chapter was a page turner as always and uh I really really enjoyed it and I'm really looking forward to chapter 31.

Yep. We're getting getting near the finish line.

Yeah. What a what a feat. The book was a feat and this podcast was a feat. I think the hours from this podcast will be greater than the than the hours of the audio book of your book.

Uh that is undoubtedly true

and very on brand for Mormon Stories podcast. So, I'm I'm looking forward to the conclusion and um there's there's going to be a lot to talk about in the next chapter and I think to to help us understand um why this story ends the way uh that it does.

Yeah. All right. Uh so that's a cliffhanger. What happens? What do they do with the printing press? How does Joseph get out of this pickle? Or does uh does this spell the demise of Joseph Smith? For those of you who don't know anything about Joseph Smith, uh, you'll definitely want to stay tuned to find out how this story ends. Um, I'm kidding. I think everybody knows how the story ends, but I'm really looking forward to digging into it. So, John Turner, thanks for today. Thanks for this amazing book. Everybody, please buy it. The book is Joseph Smith, The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. Make it an international bestseller. Buy it on Amazon or wherever you get your books, Yale University Press. Please donate to this podcast to keep it alive, to pay John, to pay my staff, and to keep it going. You can do that at donorbox.org/jsephsmith. And please email us uh mormon stories@gmail.com. Please comment on these episodes. Give us your feedback and uh and also let us know if you want us to continue the Brigham Young series as well. Uh thanks John Turner. See you next week.

All right. Thanks everybody. Appreciate the listening. Appreciate the comments. And we're with you to the end.

All right. Uh, thanks everybody. Thanks to Julie and Brooklyn for all they do in post-production. Thanks again to our board and for our donors. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Uh, no man knows our history. And, uh, we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.