Transcription
It is white national. It's agit prop and he's Cuban. I don't really know any other way to describe what he's doing. He's doing it in Germany, too. Just to throw out there, right? And I Well, there's so many things one could say, right? I mean, why did Marco's parents come here? I mean, I believe they came here because they wanted liberty and they came to the land of the free because they wanted freedom and so they not because they thought, you know, I want to become more Anglo-Saxon.
Hello and welcome to the Bullwork Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. A little update on the week. We are in Minneapolis. Four live shows Wednesday and Thursday. Excited to get out there. There's maybe about a dozen tickets left for Wednesday. So if you have a last second fancy to get up to Minneapolis, buy those ASAP. Um as far as the pod schedule's concerned, uh uh we'll have normal bull pod like four out of the five days this week. I think Thursday we will give you guys the Wednesday night show on this feed and then Friday uh we'll give you the TNL the next level show uh from the Thursday night live show if that makes sense. So no next level this week until Friday and besides that you're on your normal schedule.
Um speaking of normal schedule it's Monday. Uh so we got Bill Crystal. Apparently it's President's Day. I did not realize it was President's Day until I started reading your newsletter this morning. Uh down here it's just Lundy Gro. But uh happy President's Day to those who celebrate. Bill, you had a little meditation on it this morning. Bill, do you know any deep thoughts on honoring our presidents?
Happy Lundy. I I guess I I just had a simple mind of you that there was Marty GR, which I was intelligent enough to know. I guess is a Tuesday. That's why it's Marty, but I didn't really You guys in New Orleans are good at extending these holidays into many days, weeks, months, you know, it's one of the whole carnival season actually.
Yeah, that's good. That's good. Uh my meditation was very simple. I when I was a young young and conservative uh there was it was sort of fashionable to lament the decline of Washington's birthday and out of Lincoln's into this generic President's Day kind of a side of democratic you know like all presidents are equal all presidents are worth admiring.
Yeah, yeah, that was a very staple staple of conservative talking points. I may have even published article like this in the weekly said I can't remember so I'm just being contrarian and saying oh maybe it's okay that it's become president's day. I don't think that criticism is totally wrong that it's a a little ridiculous. On the other hand, to the degree reminds us that we've had a lot of bad presidents or a lot of mediocre ones and some bad ones and one or two very bad ones like our current one. And we shouldn't idolize them. We shouldn't, you know, go out of our way to put them on pedestals. We should just be matter of fact about them and sort of hard-headed uh citizens of a republic, somewhat skeptical of our leaders. That's a good thing. So, that's my contrarian defense of presidency.
All right. doesn't really seem like something to take a day off of work for, but uh just being reminded that our presidents are are mediocre. They're men uh men only so far.
Yeah, Congress passed this bill in '68 that turned a lot of the holidays into the Monday holidays we're now familiar with. I guess before then I guess I don't I was a little I was a kid in high school so I don't in school. I don't really remember. I guess we celebrated all these days on the day.
You know what I mean?
Like a Thursday or
Yeah. May 30th, whatever day it was, you had off. You know, February 22nd, Washington's birthday, you had off. You know, the Monday thing is obviously convenience in many ways. And and it's fine. I'm not objecting to it. You know, I would object to it. 30 years ago, I would have had a big moralistic rant, a patriotic rant about it, and I'm surprised Rubio didn't go out about it actually at the conference in Munich. It's another signanker sign of American decline. But now, I'm okay with having three-day weekends.
The whole episode might basically be on Marco, so we're going to get to him in a second. and she's in Munich over the weekend. But beforehand, um, as you mentioned, we do like to extend the holidays here in New Orleans. So, I was out and about this weekend. And, uh, I I wasn't, you know, as in tune to the news as I usually am. And so this morning as I was prepping, I was like, let me read the morning newsletters to make sure I didn't miss anything. And I opened Playbook, Politico playbook, which I rarely do, uh, because it has deteriorated and initified to a great degree. I mean, it's it's it's horrible and hackish as you're about to find out. Um, but I was reading it and it sparked a thought. Uh, they were going through kind of the the Trump's laments at the top like that that the fact that like this latest, you know, stat for him has not been as good based on their figure skating judging as the first two segments of the presidency. Uh but then they give kind of the counter view, you know, like the view from the other side, and that is framed as chin up, dawn, beyond the noisy and erratic policy swings. There's plenty out there for the White House to feel good about ahead of the midterms. Tariffs largely haven't created unbearable levels of pain. Trump's pick to lead the Federal Reserve has been wellreceived. The border clamp down is producing results. Crime rates appear to be down. The high-risisk strikes on Iran and Venezuela haven't backfired. So in summation, the Iran and Venezuela adventures haven't backfired and the tariffs have not been totally catastrophic. And that is the morning newsletter from Politico's spin for how great things are going for Trump. What do you make? What do you make of that?
Did they put in that the Dow Jones is at 50,000? That's that's a major Trumpist No, it is a major Trumpist talking point. I believe it's why we're not supposed to care about any violations of civil liberties or, you know, killing protesters and so forth.
I don't know. Doesn't it cut the other way, Tim? I mean, if if if thing things are going object on the surface, I'm going to say put it that way or or just whe whether it's on the surface or not, things look okay in the economy, we're not in a disastrous foreign war. And even so, Trump's approval is down from what, 50 to 41. Isn't that kind of a bad sign? What if things get a little worse in the economy? Or what if one of the foreign policy misadventures has more immediate real world consequences? So I would say it's actually a tribute to the American public and cuts against Democratic consultant orthodoxy that people are just focused you know bail on the kitchen table you know it just it's just the price of everything and uh in fact it turns out public is dissatisfied with Trump for maybe deeper reasons having to do with human liberty you know rights and liberties and dignity and democracy and that's to the public's credit but anyway I don't see why if I were in the Trump White House I'd be like geez you know things aren't so terrible as politico is claiming And we're still down from 50 to 41.
Yeah. I also just think in general like if if one of your proof points of how things are going well that's is that something that you did did not cause quote unbearable levels of pain. It's only caused some modest pain. You know, some light pain is the only is all like there hasn't been, you know, nothing's been achieved from the tariffs. It hasn't caused any successes. There's no evidence that we're reshoring manufacturing. The opposite, as a matter of fact. But, you know, the good news is it didn't cause unbearable levels of pain. Yeah. I don't I I I the political standing is bad. And um I will say one of my um notes from from walking around, you know, being among the vulk with Marty Gro and like hearing from people, which I like like to hear from people who come up to me. The mood of the average resistor is better now. U which I think speaks to his political pain. And I think that there a lot of folks that came up to me, you know, maybe last Marty Gro would have been like dire. I mean depressed, you know, um should I move, you know, was a popular question that I was getting la this time last year, like should I flee the country. Uh now, um on the streets, I was getting a lot of it feels like it might be over for him. Like, and it feels like we might be like almost a little I had to tamp a couple people down. It's like a lot of work ahead. Um but I I do think that the the sense of his political standing is pretty pretty rough at the moment.
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To Marco. I don't even I don't even know how to frame this up. Uh he was in Munich uh giving some grand remarks at a security conference and hopped over to our only European friend in Budapest uh and did a little joint press conference, Victor Orban. want to play from clip some clips from all of that uh for us to react to. Uh this was the first one that caught my eye. It was it was Marco on how to think about the nature of war and how America thinks about the nature of war. Now let's listen to that.
Because armies do not fight for abstractions. Armies fight for a people. Armies fight for a nation. Armies fight for a way of life. And that is what we are defending.
This is Marcos pivot from neoonservative into nationalist blood and soil diplomat um who just only cares about the material interests of our people. Uh the problem is that I don't I don't believe that anything that he said there was actually right when it comes to the nature of war. But uh why don't you go on that and then I'll kind of expand.
No, I was I was appalled by it in many levels. And uh I mean first of all, there was this thing called the Civil War. Kind of a big war in America. I believe did we have more casualties in Civil War than maybe World War II? But anyway, certainly certainly as a percentage of the population, many many more a hell of a lot of people fought the Civil War. They weren't fighting for one nation. We were there was no question we were a nation. We had a common culture if that's what you care about. They were, you know, people reading the same book as Lincoln famously said, but we didn't he say this in the second, we we pray to the same we read the same Bible and prayed to the same God. You know, so very common cultureish and we fought because of principle, because of an abstraction, because all men are created equal, as Lincoln explained. and and as the southerners to their to be fair understood perfectly well as well as as well and they were also fighting for their way of life. I guess slavery was a key part of it but it was based on an abstract view of human equality or human inequality. So, it's just silly. And incidentally, World War II, which I think that's still an okay war by Marco's standards, though I don't know by the trumpets. I guess we were attacked on Pearl Harbor. So, we fought of course to Japan. But the war against in Europe, I mean, Hitler declared war on us, which gave Roosevelt an excuse, frankly, to go to war against him. But that war in Europe, we weren't attacked by the by Nazi Germany. Chime shipping was attacked. And we could have stayed out of that. And we did stay out of it, incidentally, for two years. And what was the justification for the many many people who died uh re helping liberate Europe because it was freedom you know what did Eisen called it the great crusade I mean anyway it's not even worth going on it's so obvious but yeah, so it's just not true what Marco is saying and it just diminishes American history any sense of actual American greatness of what America means so much and and final point I just since this is more like back to my political theory days what what is America What are we based on? We're based on an abstraction. All men that are created equal. What has anyone ever does Mark have we read any of those sentences in the Declaration of Independence?
Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
They're kind of abstract, you know, and they are literally at the foundation of our nation. Lincoln famously praised Jefferson in 1859 for inserting in what he called a merely revolutionary document the abstract truth that would be a stumbling block to tyrants at all times. something like that. A beautiful letter he wrote in 1859 in praise of Jefferson. And so I mean again Rubio in his slightly gentler than JD Vance way in his somewhat clever way I guess you'd say is still is just dressing up the same nationalist nonsense.
I am going to go on even though it's obvious uh just because that's our want. Uh you were right just by the way that that the Civil War there were more deaths in the Civil War than World War II. Um I I guess I'll just avoid the um you know kind of college dorm room element of the conversation which is that I mean our nations and people's also kind of abstractions like in some sense I think maybe they are but we we'll just we'll set that aside. The um motivation for war, the gallant like the the noble motivation for many wars in the past have been about abstractions, not about you know like people's economic concerns, you know, or not necessarily about just, you know, the actual tribe with which you are from. I mean, you know, the Crusades, Protestants versus the Catholics, all of the wars, all of the efforts against the communists, like I none of this, like it's just not true. Like what Marco just said is not true in any any sense of the world. A lot of the pernitious wars, by the way, were about abstractions, like fake abstractions, imaginary, try trying to turn, you know, another people's into um, you know, lesser less than human, right? or subhuman because of, you know, various abstractions about about religion or theology or otherwise or or or ideology rather or otherwise. So why it it wrankles me so much is because he's doing it in service of creating a new idea of what America is, right? Like that's the whole point of this, right? It's redefining America and it's redefining America's goals and objectives and history, you know, and it's trying to turn us into a country that is only united based on like I guess some Anglo-Saxon heritage and the fact that we grew up on the same land and like that is not what America is about. And it's it's it's a dangerous view frankly of what America is about. And um and he he uh expands on that a little bit in this next bit talking about our our c the culture the cultural element that we have in common. And this is when I really start to stroke out. So let's let's take a listen to that.
It was this continent that produced the genius of Mosart and Beethovven of Dante and Shakespeare of Michelangelo and Da Vinci of the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. And this is the place where the vated ceilings of the cyine chapel and the towering spires of the great cathedral in Cologne, they testify not just to the greatness of our past or to a faith in God that inspired these marvels. They foreshadow the wonders that await us in our future. But only if we are unapologetic in our heritage and proud of this common inheritance can we together begin the work of envisioning and shaping our economic and our political future.
unapologetic about our common heritage. I just I do feel like I have to point out that Marco is from Cuba, not Europe, not Europe, and that the the music and art of Cuba and of Latin America is different than that of Europe. And obviously there is a common ancestry um in a lot of cases um because you know Portuguese and Spanish came over and colonized uh Central and South America. But like do people in Malaga wax poetic about how they have a common cultural heritage with the people of Copenhagen? Like no. Like that's not what this is. like he is trying to to um sand down the edges of the various cultural differences and and create a I I don't I hate to if I use this phrase like an Anglo-Saxon supremacist view of like what our cultural heritage is that the only thing that like unites us to Europe is not like commitment to a rule of law not common you know not common defense and economic trade but what it is the fact that we all like the Beatles and the Rolling stones and Mozart and it's like that is that's crazy. I mean like anybody who's been to Miami where he grows up understands that it's crazy. Like there is a lot of cultural difference in Miami. Like there is some similarity. There's some ways in which we overlap in which we're different from Eastern cultures. Like that's fine all to explore. But like this notion that we have to be unapologetic about this and we have to use that to prevent the bad people and the bad cultures from coming to our country or from being a part of it and that like we have to unite in some right-wing nationalists historic view of our architecture and our music. It's it like it is white national. It's agit prop and he's Cuban and I like I don't I don't really know any other way to describe what he's doing. He's doing it in Germany, too. Just to throw out there, right? And I Well, there's so many things one could say, right? I did Marco's parents come here. I mean, I believe they came here because they wanted liberty and they came to the land of the free because they wanted freedom and so they not because they thought, you know, I want to become more Anglo-Saxon. I don't believe that was, you know, so I mean a that's you're absolutely right about there decided he likes American football better than uh you know the world's football maybe to their shame, but besides that, yeah, I don't think that that was and it's so yeah, so there's that side of it if you wish if you will that I mean it's really particularly appalling for him to be saying this and he knew better. He used to give very inspiring speeches about his his his parents being immigrants and America being the land of opportunity and so forth. And that's why I kind of liked Marco. I guess I was suckered a bit in 2010 and all what he ran for the Senate. But uh that didn't turn out to go very deep, did it? The other point I'd make is sort of the op the flip side of the point you're making, but they're both equally true. I think which is the whole point about Mozart and Michelangelo and all these names he's dropping and all this is they have universal appeal. They are great. They're not great because they're, you know, this Mozart came from Saltsburg and then ended up in Vienna. And in fact, if you look at people who enjoy great art and great music and great literature, it's enjoyed the world over and some of the greatest performers are from Asia and from anywhere. I'm not even going to go out as such an obvious point, but so it's precisely the universalism, one might call it, the globalism of these great works of of art and literature that makes them so important. And it's it's great that we host a lot of them now. think a lot of them are not from America as as as Marco sort of suggests they're from Europe and it's great that we we feel that they're also part of America now the and and of course we also have our distinctive American stuff which in fact is very popular in Europe jazz and so forth so that's why globalism is better than stupid ethnationalism right I mean honestly but what's with Marco he he's not quite vulgar enough or maybe because he's Marco Rubio he can't quite go in the JD Vance Hillbilly elig direction of just flatout ScotsIrish, you know, you know, ethnationalism. So, he has this sort of fancier version of it. It's if you're just a straight if you're just a straightup ethnist, just okay, just go be straight up ethnationalist. But with Marco, it's such a fake thing and it's put on in this fancy way with so much lipstick on that pig in Marco speech.
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I should also just note that the Rolling Stones in particular um like stole their music from from black American culture, people that we had enslaved and brought over from Africa. I don't I don't know that there's like a great connection between Mozart and the Rolling Stones or like a direct line on that front if you're trying to make it that it was that this could only have been created because of the Western European culture like you know the the Rolling Stones music was created uh because of the way in which we enslaved enslaved and oppressed other people and that like yielded some great art and and like this whole notion I can't like you know that there is something special about this culture that needs to be preserved. served and we need to protect it and we need to be you know um we want to be thoughtful about how to assimilate people that come from different cultures that don't you know that that don't you know have the same respect for these you know tradition you know for these classically liberal theories um like they don't for starters they don't believe in the they don't believe in the classical liberal theories like Trump is a straight affront to them and there have been plenty of people from all these cultures and that to your point from earlier. I I mean does the socialism of Central America mean that Central Americans can't come to America and like Marco has to rise to be secretary of state? He's again I should say one more time he was in Germany. So I mean there's some limits to our culture and and its commitment to you know these these principles and values and so like yeah, the whole like oh you can't don't have to apologize from them. That's I you know you can't acknowledge what the reality is that it that all this takes work you know a respect for the rule of law and a respect for the the the beautiful and great things that have been created in western culture like it it creates it it requires continued work and effort and commitment to those values and these guys are a straight attack on all of them like they just they want to do the like again the agit prop about the good elements of the culture without actually contributing to any of the sacrifice that is required to to maintain it.
No, that's well that that's really well said the point about sacrifice but also the unapologetic thing also well we're just being wrankled and venting but we we're we're venting just no righteously. I mean yes is righteous venting. Um the unapologetic thing is is appalling. What did he say? We have to be unapologetic in our heritage. No serious person thinks there's nothing to apologize about in our heritage in the American heritage. I mean, let's not just be too obvious here and talk about slavery and talk about the treatment of Native Americans. Let's talk about a million other things. We made a lot of mistakes. And every serious European thinker, including the ones he mentioned, has understood that if you're, I say, if you're a great civilization, if you're any civilization, if you're any culture, if you're any nation, if you're any people, to use those terms, there are things to apologize for. That's part of what being a serious person is. So the unapologetic thing is so appallingly childish. It really is at the level of a five-year-old. I'm not going to say I'm sorry. I didn't do anything wrong. We don't really that is that now our principle. The greatest American presidents, the greatest American authors understood Lincoln second inaugural. I mean that we there are things that we very much did wrong and things we have to apologize for and that's what makes us to the degree we are great honestly makes us great the nations that don't see think they have anything to apologize for are the worst nations or the worst governments of nations if you want to put it that way.
And do you think Putin thinks he has anything to apologize for uh Maraputo said that they want this fight and so I I want to come back to that in a second but first I just want to listen to what some of the Democrats have said about this um uh but ju just kind of wrapping up Rubio first he he then went to Budapest as mentioned um on the same day. So Orbin gives a political speech. He has an election in two months, right? So Orbin has an election in two months. Um it's maybe the most vulnerable he's been in a decade or more. Um uh coming up uh you know, we'll see um how that goes. I just want to pull out a couple of things. Uh I'm not going to put the audio of this because it's in Hungarian, so that wouldn't really us any good. But or but translated um Orbin said this in a political speech over the weekend. We must get used to the idea that those who love freedom should not fear the east but Brussels and people should turn their anxious eyes to Brussels. So simultaneously, Rubio is waxing poetic about, you know, the great Western European culture. Our best friends in Europe are talking about the the threat from Brussels of, you know, liberal of liberal democratic countries. Um, here's what Rubio then says after he lands and they have a joint press conference together. I'm going to be very blunt with you. The prime minister, Orban, and the president have a very, very close personal relationship and working relationship. I can say to you with confidence that President Trump is deeply committed to your success. So two months before the election, Rubio lands there and says, "Trump wants you to win basically and is very committed to uh to your victory uh politically." Um this is obviously a right-wing autocrat. I you know again I I just I don't know how to translate that any way other than a direct affront onto our our traditional alliances while you know our traditional allies rather while he kind of pays lip service to you know this cultural connection.
Well and a direct uh attempt to prop up Orban who has is in trouble has been in trouble I think there also were financial commitments made that will help him spend more go further into debt even though the EU's been trying to check that so Trump will in effect backs stop him uh because our success is your success is our success he said to Orban. So there are actually brave people in Hungary fighting Orban. There's a candidate running against them. There are liberals. I've met some of them uh liberals in the oldfashioned sense of people who believe in a free country who have been fighting the good fight there with many disadvantages because Orban controls because everything that's been happening here has been happening in spades in Hungary and Orban controls the media and he controls access to capital and to resources and but there are people trying to fight back and Rubio goes there and steps on those people. I mean, it's much worse even than just saying something nice about Orban and some out of context. He's two months before the electors as you point out. He goes and and and and weighs in against the dissident in Hungary who are doing their best to restore Hungary to a free or freer to a free country really and and to a ally of other free countries. Peter Mer is the main opposition.
Right? But there's a big in there, you know, Sorbat hasn't succeeded in stamping out uh all opposition. So there are sort of opposition structures, although they're weaker in Budapest. And so it's just disgusting what Rubio is doing. In that respect, Lubio is worse than the ones who just say it up front that that's, you know what I mean? That he pretends to be the spokesman for Western and even sort of liberal values, you might say, and then he and then he steps on uh and and helps Orban and hurts those trying to fight back against him. Really terrible.
Maguire is the president of the Respect and Freedom Party. Let's just be honest. Like if Rubio was not being a shill for Donald Trump, it's a very Rubioesque party. Like like it's not some liberal lefty socialist.
No. No. The reason he's the reason he's a strong opponent to, as I understand it, Dorban is that he's sort of a centerrightish, you know, pro- freedom person, right? I mean, it's
It's not like Milan Sean like this is not some like left like, you know, far left or even like really woke left. I you know it is uh it's somebody that would have been in the tradition of what Marco argued for up until 2 minutes ago is trying to help a country that is that is being you know where where a lot of freedom and rights are being stamped out by the current quasi authoritarian government.
And just one one more word on this you read that thing I hadn't heard the thing about the we have that he said over the weekend that Brussels is the threat. The threat comes from the west not from the east.
We should not fear the east Russia.
Who is the east? the east is Putin. I mean literally I mean that both literally to the east but also that's how Putin describes himself often.
And and his theorists describe himself. So he's so Orban says we should fear the EU because they have few too many regulations on something or other I suppose more than Putin uh who has launched this brutal war in Ukraine among many many many other things. Uh and and and Rubio shows up one or two days later and says we're with you. I mean, it's really beyond it's terrible. It's just terrible and disgusting really. And and that's our Secretary of State. And that's the one in the administration is supposed to be kind of the the better one. Yeah. The one who's kind of quietly going to going to save us from some of the worst aspects of Trumpism. He's legitimating the worst aspects of Trumpism.
In the same speech, in case the East was not clear enough, the uh I'm basing these translations on on Euro News and like European news wire outlets. Um but in the same section of the speech uh he said that he calls it Putining. Putining is primitive and frivolous. And so for I was like okay well maybe he's also criticizing Putin. But no that's a critique of the western practice of framing Russia and Putin as this scary threat like that is frivolous you know to be overly concerned about about Putin because the tangible and direct threat is Brussels. to a total total madness and insanity and and that's who that's what Marco has said that that is that's who we signed up to. It's very important to Donald Trump that that person succeeds. Let's go to what some of the Democrats said um about all this. Uh I'm just going to read from Mark Kelly and then play some AOC. Mark Kelly wrote this. When Secretary Rubio said the old world order was dead, um he was right. It's dead because Donald Trump blew it up. He thinks this somehow benefits us. He is wrong. Our allies no longer trust us. It was obvious in the more than a dozen meetings I had of presidents, prime ministers, defense, and foreign ministers. If you're Denmark and Greenland, a loss of trust is generous. China is now more popular in Denmark than the United States. This means these countries are looking elsewhere for trade and security. That's making us poorer and less safe.
You know, I I I just I I want to play uh Mark, Kelly, and AOC kind of give you a sense of how the various factions of the Democrats are talking about this. But do you have anything on Kelly?
I thought Kelly was very good actually. Yeah, he's been very impressive the last few months. I mean, maybe he's been impressive for longer than that, I wasn't following him as closely, but ever since the Hexath attack on him, I've been following him more closely and uh I think he's really I mean, he said it well and he's absolutely right about this. This thing didn't just blow itself up. This order that we've had for the last 80 years has been blown up by Trump and Rubio's there justifying it.
AOC was over there. This caused a lot of stir. I think it's interesting to listen to her um to actually listen to her and um and I'll have some thoughts on the back. We have to have a workingclass centered politics if we are going to succeed and also if we are going to stave off the scourges of authoritarianism. This is a moment where we are seeing our presidential administration tear apart the transatlantic partnership uh rip up every democratic norm uh and you know really calling into question uh as was mentioned by um by David Carney at the World Economic Forum the rules-based order that we have or question mark do we have and we are in a new era domestically and globally. There have been many leaders who said we will go back and I think we have to recognize that we are in a new day and in a new time but that does not mean that the majority of Americans are ready to walk away from a rules-based order.
What did you make about AOC?
It's she's impressive. You know, I'm I'm okay. What do you think, Kelly? AOC in 2028. I mean, you're probably you're a little further. Maybe you want AOC Kelly. Let's be honest, you know.
No, don't try to put don't try to put me in a box, Bill. Woke Bill Crystal. Um, here's what I thought was interesting about it. Well, I wanted to play it. Um, because she expands of kind of both of the points that she makes uh several times, but um like on the one hand, she's talking about the working class politics. It's like a domestic, you know, speaking to kind of her domestic base really. Um and but also sort of framing that as like also a way to fight authoritarianism, right? Whereas if working people feel like they're that the left party, what liberal party is more on their side, then they might be less susceptible to the authoritarian advances. And and I think there's something to be said for it. And she also though talked several times with the Democratic norms. But I think it's funny because if you just consume a the kind of inter nessine lefty debate online like a lot of times it gets framed up as like the Bernie left you know care about working people in economics and the squishy centrists care too much about democracy and norms right and that that hurt Kamala that she cared too much about that and so it's interesting to see here AOC like just do both right and um and do both, you know, off the cuff, right? And she seemed very comfortable talking about both, talking about Democratic norms. Um, and it's the type of thing I think that a lot of like the lefty fans would like roll sometimes roll their eyes at about when when other folks do it. And so, so I thought that was interesting. Um, and um, I also thought it was interesting that like at this point like the DSA candidates are basically more committed to maintaining the the the rules-based order, the alliances, the economic and political alliances that we have with Europe than the republic than the former neocons are. I think that's a pretty interesting contrast as well.
Yeah. No, it's pretty amazing. I mean, I has there been any push back against AOC from the left? I mean, she's she's so invulnerable maybe, right, that she gets to say what maybe lesser uh social democrats or democratic socialists couldn't quite get away with saying, but yeah, defending NATO. I mean, that's but I would say, you know, it's interesting as I listen to her. So in the early part of the cold war there were many social democrats or democratic socialism people who literally were from the socialist parties of their countries who were great allies in the fight against Soviet communism and who had been allies in the fight against fascism. And then there were the more let's call them centrist free marketish you know types who we were more comfortable usually having as allies in Europe. And but there were big coalitions to often to fight against um to fight against against dictatorship and tyranny and oppression. I don't know if AOC is consciously sort of hearkening back to that or whether she just because Trump is destroying the rules-based order and because she does have a sense that this is really bad for the country and for the world. The effect of what she's saying is to kind of put begin to put together a genuine alliance I would say of a kind of workingclassoriented politics with a kind of liberal internationalism which is good and you don't have to buy every aspect of the workingassoriented politics in terms of domestic economic policy to think that for the point of view of the country and the world you need to have that broad alliance. We needed it in the 50s and 60s. We needed it through the cold war and we need it today I think. Don't you think?
Yeah I do. And she she called it class-based internationalism in a different clip, which I like I don't really know if that's a if that's real or what that is exactly. That's a little thin. But um but that notion, right, I I don't think is wrong, right? If there if somebody could could merge or fuse, right, a idea that the party is going to hearken back to its roots and focusing on helping working people. all the policies underneath that I probably won't agree with, but but just at least if for just aesthetically and and if the focus is put on that, I think that's probably right. And I think that probably would help in some ways or at least would be worth trying and offsetting authoritarianism. I mean the one thing that is that is true if you're just analyzing the world you know comparative politics style is like the leftwing parties everywhere have gotten too you know a siloed among college educated urban elites you know and there needs to be some type of effort to change that like there ways to go about that AOC is offering one possible way but I think it's worth trying so you know to me it's like okay well if you're going to try that and you know continue to you know have an internationalist commitment to allied to countries and to countries that have you know commitments to fundamental small L liberal values like that's we could do worse than that we're doing well we're doing significantly worse than that right now um so anyway I my last thing I would just say about AOC just as doing my version of Politico's figure skating judging um as people start to buzz about her 2028 watching the whole speech she seems a little less surefooted talking about all this stuff. And so I think it was good that she went there. She would not be the first candidate um to enter a campaign for president and feel less comfortable talking about international issues. George W. Bush comes to mind as one. Many others, even Mitt, I think got a lot better on that in his second campaign than his first campaign. Just thinking about people that I was following more closely. Um, so, you know, I think that if she does have her sights on that, it would probably be valuable to to to get more reps in on that sort of stuff. Um, I couldn't tell. I listened to it very closely several times. I think she might have got Mark Carney's name wrong. I'm not 100% sure because she kind of mumbles it, which is sort of what I do. Like I was at uh I see when a parent from school and I forget their name, I can mumble it really fast. Um, so it might have just been that. I don't know. Maybe maybe I'm overstating.
But just not at AOC. A I think it's impressive that she went there and it look there's I've been there. I mean, there's quite a lot of pressure. I mean, everyone else Frederick Frederick Merz has spoken and the vice president Rubio and she's on a panel and it's not as if she's reading a text incidentally I believe right she's so so you know I give her credit for doing it and and probably going to have people like us say she wasn't perfect on this or that but um if you're running for president or even well if you're running for president or want to be a major figure even if you don't quite run for president that's the kind of thing you do and maybe the but it's only February 26th it's impressive that she's doing it this I kind of think she maybe is thinking seriously about running for president though. Don't you think?
I think so. I I don't I don't I have no inside knowledge.
No, no, no. Nor. I'm just, you know, but I mean, see, if there was somebody in age between her and Bernie in her lane, I would think that maybe she would think the right thing to do is primary Schumer, right? Because I think that Schumer is extremely vulnerable. Um and uh and you know, she's in New York and you know, then it's
You sort of wait. But um, there isn't really um, so I have to imagine she's thinking about it.
Uh, lastly, Caputo, um, our colleague, said that he basically said that in response, I forget who it was too, but in response to some of the pushback to Rubio on the left. He said, basically, Rubio and Vance want this fight like they want the contrast that was just laid out of AOC talking about, you know, internationalism and the fact that, uh, you know, America does need, you know, there are areas where we need to improve our commitment to human rights versus, you know, kind of a western culture unapologetic tough guy, uh, Americanism. And, um, I, I don't know that that's the kind of thing that actually defines an election. It really matters and and it's hard to kind of to look out to 2028 and think what, how salient that may or may not be. But I do wonder if you think that the Democrats just should be a little bit worried about that, that just because the the Rubio framing is obviously ridiculous, that doesn't mean that it's not necessarily effective. What do you think? What would you say to that?
I mean, a certain kind of nihilism and, uh, um, unapologetic, you know, ism, uh, never apologize for anything that your country's ever done. I suppose that, of course, there's some appeal, demagogic appeal there, and and the Democrats need to think about how to respond. Kelly is effective as he says, it's making us less safe. The actual truth of Rubio's talk is that he wants, is that his administration is betraying Ukraine. There's not real support for that in the United States, right? So, I think the Democrats need to frame it in a way to say, this talk may sound vaguely nice to you, but, uh, we, we're for our allies because that's kept us safe and it's made the world more prosperous. We're for Ukraine because they're fighting bravely against Putin, and here's a little bit about how horrible Putin is, and here's a little bit about how Ukraine is fighting our fight for us and not asking for troops, just for aid. I mean, I think there are ways to do it that are more, that would be effective and not fall into some, some trap.
Yeah. You sound like some super goopy internationalist, you know, if only you let the UN govern us, that would be good, I guess. But but I don't think Democrats are pretty far from that these days. And look, I think the AOC thing, I'm really focused on it until you brought it up today. It's very interesting. If that really begins a move by even the AOC wing of the party into a more liberal internationalist foreign policy as opposed to where democratic socialists really have been going the last 10, 20, 30 years, which was a repudiation even of that because it led to first to Vietnam and then to Iraq and so forth. Um, if they, they can still repudiate Vietnam and Iraq, or obviously, but >> yeah, sure, more of an isolationist. Yeah. >> Yeah. But if it leads them away from a kind of isolationism or just wishfulness and into a a healthier version of a liberal internationalist foreign policy, that's that's good for, that's good for them and it's good for the country, I think.
>> Yeah. Also, this is, I'll be Bill Crystal events are going to matter. You know, depending on how big of a [ __ ] show things are by the end of 2027, you know, I think there can be a compelling argument about how much weaker America is right now. And it's a little bit of an academic argument right now that China is strengthening and and we are weakening in the world stage and you know, there's not a lot of tangible evidence for that unless you're the type of person that's like really paying attention to >> you know, trade agreements and such. But um, but if there, if there, some tangible evidence of that develops, you know, I think that there, uh, there might be a way to thread that needle.
One other foreign policy thing just caught my eye. I just kind of want to mention this in case, uh, because it could end up becoming a pretty, uh, pretty important as we go forward on the AI beat. The Anthropic products are used in the Venezuela raid, which I, which I thought was interesting. More interesting though, u, was this story I saw this morning, which is that Pete Hegseth is saying that he's close to cutting all ties with Anthropic and designating the AI company a supply chain risk. Meaning that anyone who wants to do business with the US has to, has to cut ties with the company. The reason why is that the CEO of Anthropic, Dario Amodei, uh, says he wants to ensure that tools aren't used to spy on Americans and ma in mass, um, or develop weapons that fire with no human involvement. Uh, Pentagon officials are insisting that any relationship with AI companies, um, allows the military to, to do whatever they want, basically, with the AI companies. They're the ones that are trying to focus on, you know, safety and and like ethical considerations. Um, uh, and they are, you know, paying lip service to that, at least, much more than the than their competitors. Um, you know, kind of we'll see, the proof will be in the pudding on all that. But um, I think it's pretty concerning and telling that that Hegseth, that that our government is about to, is considering at least declaring like full out war on the one AI company that is at least pretending like they care about safeguards. Um, and, you know, we'll see how it all plays out, but I definitely think this is something to keep monitoring.
>> And how much is this just a way of channeling more business to Musk, since he's one of the other three right, uh, AI players? It might all be just about that. And but no, it's terrible. And of course, the same week, isn't it, that Hegseth sort of making it harder, I guess, for members of the military to be who are going to law school to become Jags to go to, you know, the 30 top law schools in the US basically, because they're so woke?
>> Yeah. The military might not cover it if you go to a woke, >> right? No, apparently they really. And they're telling people to reapply to other places and so forth. I think they've also cut back on some of the mid-career programs that I very much enjoyed when I taught a little bit at the Kennedy School in the 2000s and had wonderful, you know, the majors and lieutenant colonels there for their year instead of going to the war colleges had a very good influence on the other students. Incidentally, but they want to throw all that away. But these poor guys, these 35-year-old majors or these 25-year-old, I suppose, Jag, you know, law students, they're so in Hegseth's view, they're so pathetically vulnerable. They have so little idea of what they believe, why they're joining the military, that they're going to go to Harvard or Princeton, which is where Hegseth went in Italy and and what and get get brainwashed by by a bunch of professors. I don't think so, really. You know, that was not my experience.
>> MIT was also on the list. It feels like we should like have have members of the military who have certain technical expertise should be able to go to MIT.
>> So patronizing. Think about what Hegseth is selling people in the military. You are not a serious enough person to go to a place where the predominant culture is presumably liberal and I guess, uh, though in fact, the military's thank God the last 20 years been treated so much better at these schools than obviously post-Vietnam and stuff, so there's been very few real problems for them, but anyway, you can't go there because you're going to, I don't know what, you know, you're just going to get the wokeness is going to permeate into your brain in some mysterious way and you're suddenly going to not be a good member of the military. It's so insulting. It's so insulting to these serious, serious people who are trying to become lawyers and Jags or who are getting their mid-career year of education so they can then move up and become, you know, full colonels or ultimately general officers. It's, you do wonder how much damage it's all going to do. It's so stupid, you almost can't take it seriously. But I don't know. I mean, it's it's it's going to lead to more people leaving the military, I suppose, who who've thought, you know, I'd like to go to actually get a go to a good law school if I'm going to go the JAG route.
>> I guess the best case for that policy is that Pete Hegseth is himself a graduate of Princeton and Harvard. So, maybe they're not doing as good of a job as we think.
Um, on a few ICE things, I never even covered this case. Uh, but it's worth mentioning it just because it's so striking. Um, so the district court judge, uh, Paul Magnuson dismissed felony assault charges against two Venezuelans, Alfredo Aljora and Julio Caesar Sooselis. Uh, there, this was in Minneapolis. Um, they're accused of beating an ICE officer with a broom handle and a snow shovel on January 14th. The officer fired a shot from his handgun, striking Sosa in his right thigh. Uh, so that was the whole story they told, basically, is that these, that he shot him because they were, they were beating. They announced over the weekend that newly discovered evidence was quote, materially inconsistent with the allegations. You don't say. Um, both officers have been immediately placed on administrative leave pending the completion of a thorough internal investigation. We'll see if those investigations actually occur. But I just think it's, um, so notable, right? Like that we have these prime cases that everybody's debating. It's all in all of our faces where we watch them lie to us with their own eyes. But then there have been a lot of other instances of these guys like menacing people, injuring them, in this case, shooting them, and then lying about them and smearing them. So, I mean, it's good, I guess, that the court has, you know, that these things are being adjudicated. But, um, you know, it is a pretty notable state of affairs. Like, we literally just cannot trust anything that the Department of Homeland Security says.
>> Yeah, totally. I mean, the the lies are just so, they're not like slight shading of the truth. They're exaggerating, you know, how much of trouble they were in or the person hit them, but it really wasn't a shovel, it was just a broomstick, so she wasn't a serious. It's not like that kind of thing. They, they just made up a story, right? I mean, it's >> sounds like it >> to justify shooting someone. And yeah, I, I am, I am all out of patience with ICE and the Border Patrol in every respect.
>> To that front, the DHS is currently, uh, shut down. There's kind of this partial government shutdown happening. Uh, we discussed this last week. Um, and, uh, you are, uh, what, what did, what did we say? Which which part of the which part of the communists are you in? Which which wing are you in?
>> Trotsky somethingite wing and somebody else said, uh, you're in the Trotskyite wing, you know, saying no, not a single penny for DHS. Shut it down. Uh, negotiations are ongoing about whether maybe, you know, Republicans might change some of the various policies. You know, because we, we take good faith criticism here. We're not perfect. We're not unapologetic. Um, uh, there was a column that was unhappy with your hardline point of view. It's from Marcy Wheeler, uh, who's, you know, been been monitoring the Trump administration successes for a long time now. So, so we'll take it. Basically, her argument was this, um, not funding DHS in this fight doesn't really do anything to change ICE and CBP's behavior because they have so much money. And, um, and so she says, like, to to have that be the only ask is to basically throw up your hands in the hopes that in 11 months, Democrats will have the tools to do something more, all while letting ICE continue to spend billions unmolested. Like the idea is basically, why not get some concessions now, because they have enough funding anyway, and then refight the fight next year, essentially. What would you say to that dissent?
>> I mean, I'm forgetting some concessions too. I didn't really think I was advocating totally dropping this. I do think the money is extremely important. $16 billion isn't that much given how much they got in the in the reconciliation bill last year, but it's not nothing. And I, people Aaron Reichman and others say it, you know, they let them draw down some of that other money. It makes this means there's less available for the next couple of years and it lays the and also I just think it lays the predicate for making the broader case against ICE and, uh, and the Border Patrol if Democrats win the House and or the Senate and to really, and then they really do need to get serious about the funding. So I think you need to get people used to the fact that the funding is as important as some of these, uh, concessions or or adjustments in how they do business. I'm for going after all of them. I just, I'm uncomfortable with just, uh, not uncomfortable, more than uncomfortable. I don't think it's a good idea to just swear off doing anything about funding. I mean, I mean, I respect Marcy Wheeler and maybe, you know, look, this is a matter of tactics. I'm not, uh, but but I do think I don't know, do do we think Dem, well, put it this way. Are Democrats going to vote, let's say they get a couple of concessions on masks or on, you know, I don't know what, body cam, they're not going to get masks incidentally, but anyway, body cameras or something. Um, are they then going to vote to fund to add funding? Again, not a small amount, $16 billion to ICE and to, uh, and to Border Patrol. I don't know. I would have a tough time after everything we've just talked about, what the way they behaved in giving them a whole lot of money with pretty limited modifications in how they're doing business and no change in their leadership to speak of. Right.
>> I don't see how you can without very real changes. This is kind of a devil's in the details thing for me, but I, I don't know how you can give them another penny while they're masked, for starters. It's just no one else gets to be masked, which seeing the problems that it's caused already. Like, it's an odd starter for me. That's, I'm never going to be in the United States Senate, but that's where I would be. That'd be my message for them. Um,
>> you haven't changed your mind about running. You haven't changed your mind about the Senate race since we discussed it. Since we discussed it a week ago, you know,
>> I have not. I think where I'm worse, you know, the more I reflect on it, the less the less competitive I seem. So, I appreciate the feedback.
Um, lastly, I, I do, I would feel remiss if I didn't ask you. Um, former President Barack Obama, uh, was in an interview this weekend where he said he believes that aliens exist. He said he didn't have any evidence of that. He hasn't seen any evidence. And so, I'm just curious where Bill Crystal on aliens. Are you?
>> I've sort of always assumed they. I honestly never given. This shows my limited imagination, I'm sure, but I, I've never given it that much thought. But,
>> you have a lot of thought on aliens. What did Dan Quayle think about aliens? Do you think?
>> I, I don't know. I think the Republican, well, you were, don't you think in Republican circles we were sort of, >> we were vaguely doubtful about aliens? I think doubtful.
>> I think the people who were pro-alien, >> it's a little bit of a front to religion.
>> And I think, yes. Well, that's true. It is an to at least biblical religion as we understand it. And also I think people who were pro seeing aliens, I guess there were elements. Was that a horseshoe thing? There were elements on the right and the left who were >> Yeah, probably. Yeah.
>> I don't know. I'm, I'm still a little skeptical. I'm interested that Barack Obama is just, I mean, said, I mean, I only saw the sentences. So he said, it's a very big universe. So why couldn't there be alien forms of alien life? I guess that's if you define it broadly enough, that could be true. I don't know. I kind of, I kind of, I guess I'm old-fashioned enough in that respect to think maybe kind of like the idea that we're the only actual human beings who have this ability to quite think and feel the way that we do. I don't know. Maybe that's just a prejudice.
>> I've kind of backtracked. I'm not even sure if we exist. I'm not, you know, this might all be fake. So,
>> that's a good position. That's a good position.
>> Um, all I can know is that I exist.
Um, all right, Bill Crystal. Uh, thank you so much. Uh, we'll be see, I'll be seeing you in Minnesota. You're coming.
>> I am coming. I'm looking forward to.
>> Sam Stein is with us. JBL and Sarah. We're going to have some special guests from the community. Very much looking forward to it. I'll be back for Mardi Gras tomorrow. Well, I'm just gonna tell you now, it won't be with James Carville. We've done two James Carville Mardi Gras episodes in a row and I, and I had dinner with him about a week or two ago and I was like, we're going to continue the tradition, right? And I'm not going to try to do his voice, but he was like, I'm, uh, I'm 81. I'm going on a cruise by myself. I was like, what? You're going on a cruise by yourself? And he said, yes. Mary didn't want to go and I just, I need, I've never been and I want to go. And so I was like, God bless him. That's great. I, I think I think I think good on him. Just think about like what a gift that is to whoever is sitting next to him at dinner.
>> I was thinking about that. You look up, you're on the cruise, they give you your, they get like table assignments and stuff. There you are. It's like that would be something.
>> That's James Carville. It's like people pay $25,000 a pop for this and you're going to get a full weekend of just unmolested James Carville material. So anyway, we'll have another good one. It'll, it'll be good. We'll have a Mardi Gras episode for you tomorrow and, uh, then we'll see everybody in Minneapolis. Appreciate it, Bill. See everybody else tomorrow. Peace.