Transcription
[Music] [Music] Hey everybody, welcome to Swedenborg in Life Live. Today, we will be talking about what turning the other cheek really means.
Mm-hmm. I'm Curtis, I'll be your host as we explore this puzzling sort of icon of non-violent thought. Is it practical? Can it be applied? Oh yeah. My co-host, Dr. Jonathan Rose. Hey everybody. Hey Curtis, nice to see you. Thank you for being open to this, and thanks to all of you. Hey, if you're here already, you know there's these little buttons at the bottom of the YouTube video. They like and they subscribe. You got to do it. That helps us. Thank you. And then you'll know when we put the next video out. And that kind of thing is like, sort of application of the principle, cause it's like, oh, so many forces you to watch a video like this, you might as well watch another video. That's right. If you're really selfless. And so that's recognizing. Okay, so, but what we're doing this, if you want revenge on us for the show, please enter something in the elevator pitch category. Oh yeah. We do this thing where we have to answer, we have to explain a topic that we've had absolutely no prep on, live in front of y'all, in a minute. And it's a lot of fun. So get your simple Swedenborg concepts that you'd like to see us talk about in a minute there. And let's get into what, what we're doing here today. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So we always, this is always prompted by you. This, because we want to, what we want to do here is say, look, we are doing this. What is this? Is spirituality or religion or whatever we're doing here. We want questions, and we want tough questions. We're not saying, stop, do you know, don't, don't ask us anything that might uncover all the holes in our theories. Please think what we tell you to think. Go ahead, ask us tough questions, because we like to try to answer them. So this is prompted by your question to air. It's actually two questions surged on this topic. The first was from, we do this show called Good Question, which to prove it, if we have an hour-long show where all we do is answer questions. And this one was called Purpose, Faith, and Bible Numerology. And during that, we had a question we didn't get time to answer on air, but it was this, from Robert, in terms of correspondences, what is the meaning of turn the other cheek? Hmm. So this is, turn the other cheek, made famous by Jesus Christ. What is he talking about there? And then we had another show that was called, What is Hell Really Like? That in itself an answer to a question. But from there, we got this question from KS, who asks, Jesus is very clear that if someone sues you for your tunic, you give them your cloak also. But in real life, when people unfairly try to snatch from us what's rightfully ours, like jobs or marriage, on unfair grounds, through unfair means, that's where our natural reflex is to defend our basic rights. But Jesus made it very clear, we aren't to fight for anything. I don't know if Jesus's teachings are practical enough at times. Yes, really. How are we gonna live this out? Okay. It's Jesus, Jesus is relatively important. Swedenborg says Jesus is God, the way we can perceive and interact with God. Okay. God, I don't think I can really do that. I think you might be not really in touch with what it's like to be a human being in this world. So what's Jesus getting at? Can correspondences help us figure it out? That's what we're gonna get into. But first, hmm, let's do an icebreaker. Sorry, at the end there, I just realized that I was looking over you right when you look forward, and then you would look right when I, I just want to confirm that it was so that's why I ended with the tempo that I ended that. Sigmund, we couldn't help turning cheeks. Oh yeah. So there's a little science experiment. Listen, let's start to chip away at this mystery, and this question posed to us will help us do it. We're gonna answer it on screen. We want you to all answer it in the chat. We'll read your answers at the end. Here's the question: As we look to turn the other cheek, what's a way to use positive heavenly energy to deal with someone else's negative behavior or attitude? So what do you? So by heavenly energy, you know, what, what do you think of when you think of that? And how would you use it to diffuse somebody's negative, negative behavior or attitude? Yeah, I guess my first thought is that it's such a blessing when you even have that idea that you can use positive heavenly energy to deal with somebody else's coming at you with negative behavior. Because sort of the animal instinct is to respond in kind, you know, hit back, yet whatever it is. And so coming from a higher level, I'm thinking of the three C's, like boy, yeah, boy, whack, yeah, right. Everything keeps going like that. It escalates. And coming from a spiritual perspective, like one thing to me is just to see people more from a somewhat God's eye view, as much as we understand that. Okay, that this person who's coming at you with something negative or harmful or whatever it is, has different layers to themselves. They have a soul that's in the arms of God, you know, they have a lower self that acts up, like our lower selves act up. And realizing, okay, this person is not necessarily the same as this behavior that's manifesting to me, you know, and sort of try to get to a place of forgiveness and understanding, that sort of thing. I mean, that's one thing that comes to mind. And, and it helps to realize, I've been that same idiot sometimes, you know what I mean? You heard it here first. Yeah, whatever. I've probably done that. I've probably done it in the last 12 hours. And that's why I'm going through this or something, right? So seeing and helpful to realize, this, this is me, I'm not different from this personally. Then the multi-faceted nature of each person, which is great. It makes me think of, you know, when I think of heavenly energy, I'm thinking of that it's a spiritual thing. So it's sort of in, inside me, and in the heart and mind. And I can definitely feel times when I feel full of energy there, and times when I don't. And I'm, one thing that, so somebody's negative behavior, attitude, and attitude, slash behavior that people are pretty willing to do around others because they don't realize is people will start being critical of things or people that I feel like either is just dragging me down, or if I go, that's not alright to be talking this way about somebody when they're not around. What I feel like I can sometimes get the heavenly energy to do is, is heaven is not soon works at heaven, and God don't break people, they just bend. So instead of me saying, like, heavenly energy, you are breaking the commandment about killing someone's reputation, instead, just a big man, let's think about how can we ask somebody about something positive that they like, you know, steer, just steer it into not even try to critique that, just to say, you're talking about that right now, but isn't this cool when something, something like, like snapping? Because people are just usually when they are, I find bad-mouthing people or things, they're just wanting to make conversation or event a little, and they can, they can just as happily make conversation about something they like. So I don't know if that's a good fix or a permanent fix, but I do find sometimes I can avoid a situation where I feel like I don't want to be in this, this, the second-hand smoke from this, and maybe get that person to see life a little more positively again. Knowing I often can be in a critical, complainy state. So hopefully you all do that for me at the same time. Okay, good. No, there are answers. Your answers better? We'll find out at the end of the show. Okay, we've got that state of mind. We're thinking about heavenly energy versus negativity, and how we're gonna apply that. Now, let's see if we can't climb the mountain, which is the explanation for this saying of Jesus. There's a lot coming up here, and it is dense. That's a great challenge, and the challenge is part of the challenge. Okay, now let's do the setup. It's not the destination, it's the destination. Yeah, so that's right. How we want to set this up. How do you understand what this Jesus Christ is saying here? And I feel like to help us get an initial point of context, let's look at a very famous saying by a very famous Christian. This is Martin Luther. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And he had one of his more famous quotes was the following: Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that. And what I want to focus on there is that even though he had this action strategy of nonviolent protest, there overall was taking actions to prevent things and stop things. So reactive, but very, yeah, very active and effective. Yeah. But note that that quote is not about action, it's about attitude. Oh, that's right. That when he's talking about darkness and hate, you know, love and light, it's how are you feeling your motives as you do this stuff, right? What's in you, spirit, that's not there. Nothing in that quote about nonviolent resistance, but you could tell this is something that permeates what he was trying to do, and what people then, perhaps this helps us understand the spirit of Jesus' quote. Okay, so suggesting you'll only be more effective if you're not coming from a kind of tit-for-tat, you know, yes, equal and opposite response. Hate plus hate equals hate, and that's not gonna get us where we need to go. So how are we gonna tie this in with the Sermon on the Mount? Yeah, the Sermon on the Mount was that beautiful time in the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus is baptized, and then he begins his ministry. And one of the first things that happens in chapter five of Matthew is that he's on a mountain, and he teaches all the people. And it actually goes on for three chapters. And a lot of what people know about the New Testament just comes from this one little portion of scripture, because there's so much wise, beautiful, you know, blessed are the poor in spirit, and all these kind of teachings in that Sermon on the Mount. Okay, so it's around Matthew. It is. It's totally awesome. And even the way it starts, Jesus opened up his mouth and said, and he just launches into it. Yeah. Where's it coming from with this stuff? And everybody's just, you know, it's mind-boggling. Yeah. What is he talking about? It's so amazing. And you can feel this spirit from it, and yet you don't cognitively get everything he's saying. No, because that's exactly, I say it's awesome, but it's, it's sort of just awesome like as a poem or something, because, yeah, well, some of the stuff seems very like practical and and loving, other stuff is confusing, or feels really cool, but then I, what is he actually saying by it? And it has all these pieces to it where he talks about this for a second, and then moment, and then keep doing. But it's hard to tell that what are the threads that hold it all together, that sort of thing. Okay. And so keep this all in mind, and let's have a look at some of these words. It's just an excerpt from the Sermon on the Mount. A brief pause. I don't have focusing on tonight. Matthew 5, verses 38 to 42. You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. Now, I want to hit pause there for a second and just say that that is, he said, you've heard that it was said, as if it was just some sort of tradition or rumor that's taught many times in the Old Testament. Yeah, not really as a revenge thing, but more as like, if you've done this crime, if you hurt someone in this way, then you need to pay in that same kind of way. An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, so now Jesus is kind of updating, he's so bold, you know, let's update this teaching. I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. Ever. Disrupt the industry there. Hmm. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also. That's it. It's what we're talking about. Okay, so already that first, do not resist an evildoer, we got, I mean, there's a higher sentiment to it, but we got a problem with application already, right? You do, and if anyone, you know, hits you on the right cheek, you know, even if you're sort of about to pass out, go ahead and say, okay, yeah, hit me, hit me here. Let's demonstrate. Right, right. Yeah, we should have a quick visual demonstration. Okay. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, and this is translated in various different ways by different, you know, translations, but basically there's an inner garment and an outer garment. This is the inner garment, give you a cloak as well, your outer garment, kind of thing. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. This is the famous going the extra mile, that's where that came from. Copy. Give to everyone who begs from you. Wow. Hey, give me a mile, eight million dollars, would you please? I really, really need it. And do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. So give, and also borrowing, you know, don't refuse. We got other sorts of problems here. Was those last two, give if you beg, lend to anybody, those aren't even necessarily in the same category of somebody punching you in the face. It just seems really different. Yeah, it's not even different things really about evil. It's just like, what, what ties all those together? Be a doormat? Right, that's that's to be the message. It seems to be. Yes, lie down, let's everybody, you know, anything. So what can, can this not react? Can this possibly be literal? And how did the question was, correspondently, what does it mean? Can this be taken literally? How did Swedenborg? This we can see this as an issue. This is what we get from our friend Emmanuel. This is from Secrets of Heaven. And I have to say, it's so cool that our viewers, yeah, know by now, it's gotta be coming. Okay, know what's going on. And so it's gotta be more to it. I'm Hackett. Look how he approaches us here. Surely anyone can see that these words should not be taken at face value. Wow. What happened to biblical literalism? It's just like, all right, you're not supposed to do that. Like, don't, don't, you know, his argument is maybe like, come on, Amazon. Look at, look at how we approach this. Are you likely to turn your left jaw to someone who slaps you on the right jaw? And what's the likelihood? Are you in the field? Are you actually gonna be able to practice it? Are you letting? I know there are people who have worked really hard at their, you know, pacifists and so on, you know, Christian traditions. Well, and people have done noble things. But it's interesting that his take is like, really, you know, this is not practical. Now, and this is coming from a guy who, it's not like he said religion is a nice window dressing, but it shouldn't be all of life. This was a guy obsessed with following the principles of Jesus Christ. Heaven and Hell, every beardman was everything to him. Every detail of every interaction with every human being. Yeah, it's not something you just do on Sunday for an hour, you know, this is your entire life. So this is not him just saying, I don't take this religion so seriously. But look at what he's, look how he appeals to sort of our sense of logic or common sense. Just says, are you likely to give your cloak to someone who wants to take away your coat? Are you likely to give your property to everyone who asks? Who is not going to resist evil? This is evil by nature. Like, hey, stop it. You know, of course, you're gonna. Yeah, somebody breaks into your house, you're not gonna say, come on in or something. So he's saying here, look, just our natural repulsion to these things, it is telling us something. No, nobody can understand this passage without knowing what is symbolized by the right and left jaws. Ah, and that's what the viewers caught on to. A coat, this is gonna have a meaning. This is gonna have correspondence. A coat, and the cloak, a mile, and so on. Because if you think about it, if you switch out the things, if it said, don't, if somebody wants to take your trash, let them take your recycling as well. You'd be like, yeah, of course, of course. It all has to do with the things that are being honored. So if these things are not actually natural, but they're spiritual, let's see what that is all about. And when you see them all listed like that, it is an odd list. Yeah, it's not a normal. If you sat down and just wrote a list, you'd say, okay, smack in the jaw, you know, right code, yeah, yeah, mile, yep. The focus is on spiritual life. Ding ding. That's the key to the whole correspondence. There you go. Oral ethno. That's it. I bet a lot of people wish we would, or a life of faith, not on physical life, which is the life in the world. The focus is on spiritual life, or spiritual life, not on a physical life, which is life in the world. Okay. Know that going forward, the focus is on spiritual life in this chapter of Matthew. And the next, the Lord opens up heaven's inner reaches, but he does so through images from the world. His point in using these images was to make it understandable. Only, whoa, okay. Only to heavenly people, and not to worldly people. And now, that's a strange thing to say. Okay, alright. And the point in keeping worldly people from understanding was to prevent them from profaning the inner message. They said, we've had a lot, really fast, of the word. If they profaned it, they would hurl themselves into the most dreadful hell of all, which is the hell of those who profane the word. That is why the Lord said in Luke, to you it has been given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom, but to the rest in parables, so that seeing they would not see, and hearing they would not hear. But I just got real, really fast. Yeah, so there's a protection function. So another one question would be, if you didn't mean the jaw or the cheek or whatever, why did you say that? That's right. And so Swedenborg's answer is, well, there's a certain level of protection. It's to be able to connect with us in terms we understand, instead of saying some abstractions that we have no idea what he means. Yeah. And also, there's a protection in it, so that heavenly people will see what it means, and earthly people won't, because it might be damaging to them. Yes. So that's weird. But what is this profanation? Swedenborg would define it. One definition would be to use spiritual knowledge in order to do harm to people. Like, spiritual knowledge is power, you know, and you can range that power over people to harm people, to get them to do stuff that you want, or to revive money into your own pocket or something. Guess. And, and that would be twisting the intent of these words. And so in order to prevent that, there's a little bit of baffle, baffling. There's sort of a mist over, yeah, most of scripture, where you can't quite totally tell what's going on, right? And, and that you have people, it's able to get through to certain people, but not other people. It already, it's got this code in it, right? And so that function of hiding that deeper stuff is so to prevent manipulation and harming people. Yeah, who shouldn't be. Also, for what it's worth, we would certainly compare ourselves to the people at the time that Jesus was giving this lecture and say, well, we sure have a lot more technology than they had. That like, we can do these amazing things in the world. That's why people back then could not do it all. Swedenborg asserts that actually human minds have been expanding over time. That back in that at that time, couple thousand years ago, people were only just beginning to consider deeper issues in the way that then, right, we can now. That there actually wasn't as much freedom of thought. I don't know how you would test that, but that's the assertion, right? Yeah, that is something that he asserts is true over all. That it, okay, in in that state, misunderstanding something in the literal sense is not that bad. Better than setting people up to abuse that sort of power. Okay. Right. And part of the idea is that, well, how do you get through that threshold? How do you break through into that inner meaning? Yeah, it's like, if your heart is in the right place, you're welcome to all the spiritual information, because you're not going to use it to abuse people. So when the human heart has evolved enough that we can use it well, and some of those people have evolved, are not even in this world anymore. They're in the other world. And Swedenborg makes an astonishing claim that Jesus wasn't just talking to us. He had another audience. And this is Secrets of Heaven. I know for nine. We have a couple of quotes from this passage, because this is a place that Swedenborg specifically talks about, okay, this section of the Sermon on the Mount. This discussion talking about the Sermon on the Mount that we quoted earlier shows how the Lord spoke when he was in the world, as he did throughout the Old Testament word. He spoke for the benefit both of angels in heaven and of people in the world. He had a second otherworldly audience. Who does that? Well, so who's speaking the angels at the same time as people? When you have something like, let's say, a YouTube channel, and you're preparing messages that you know could be seen by a wide variety of people, you have to think about your different audiences. And you have to realize, when I use this word, that's gonna mean this thing to people who have this kind of background, but people who have never heard it might think I mean this. So I've got to enjoy. So think about the degree of difficulty in giving a sermon that is somehow protected from people who would misuse it. Heavenly people can figure it out, but also is for your groups, are angels as well as people. This is a very difficult thing. I've been in the situation sometimes where you need to preach to a whole range of ages, you know, you got people in there in their 80s and 90s, you got little squirming children, you got everybody in between. And it's hard to think of something that's gonna like, try to reach, you know, that's a challenge just with earthly people in front of you, kind of, you know, so to speak, let alone getting angels who are in a different state. Hmm. Okay. So we were on the bottom. That his words were in truth. He's worthy. I think you're reading this one. Am I? Yeah, go for this. His words were intrinsically divine, and have. That sounds right, because they originated in his divinity. Okay. That would kind of make them divine, wouldn't it? Yeah. If they came from the divine part of himself, they would be divine. And they came through heaven, so they're heavenly. They picked up heavenliness on the journey. Okay. But his message was presented through worldly images that correspond. Okay. So that comes down from this divine and heavenly content into something that corresponds. The inner meaning teaches what they respond to. That's a crucial idea. And this has an extension, as Swedenborg explains, because in a certain way, we're people in this world, but we already have a spirit. So there's a higher spirit in ourselves. Yeah. Jesus also talking to the higher part of us. And what we go through at a deep level here. And you could just, I realize this is relatively confusing. So to simplify it, if we're talking about spiritual versus physical, the spiritual is just talking about, you could, you could boil it down, the same, we're talking about your attitude rather than your actions. Oh, because intending and thinking are spiritual, and acting is, is natural. Yes. And Swedenborg was fond of saying, isn't he, that that you could do the same action for many, many, many different reasons. Yeah. You, you could be good-hearted, you could be, you know, vengeful, you could be old. Like, there's all these different things that could come out looking the same way. And it seems like Jesus in the New Testament, this Swedenborg, and what he wrote, very interested in this psychology, right? The spirit, and psychology comes from a word for spirit, the tsuke, you know, that's the spiritual part of us, kind of thing. Everything that is physical is temporary, it passes away. Even actions, the motivation behind the action. Stage. Jesus Christ is not interested in your temporary stuff. Worth talking about the permanent, the eternal stuff. So what Jesus was teaching was to avoid a spirit of retaliation, which is hellish. So this is Apocalypse Explained 5:56. Everything that you would want people to do for you, you do the same for them. This is the law and the prophets. Since this is a law in heaven, and because in heaven, the law of the church as well, all evil has a corresponding repercussion. This is called the consequence of evil, and it is inherent in the evil. It's almost a part of it, which we don't know is not as apparent in the world. You do something evil, you're basically bringing the consequence of it with, damaging yourself. Yeah, people who have depths as heavens angels do, do not want to repay evil with evil. They want to, I think is very important. Yeah, right. Isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They, they, they don't even want to. There you go. Because it could be that an angel has got to somebody's gonna attack somebody. So you got to, you know, push them off, right? But that doesn't mean that you want to harm them. Even if you have to harm them, that you want to do evil. Yeah, you want to crush them, kill you. Yeah, that's pretty good. Instead, instead, where they do, they forgive it. What acting from the good will of heaven. And here's a little bit of a qualifier on that. They know that the Lord keeps safe from evil all who are in a place of goodness, and that he protects them according to that goodness in them. That's really deep right there. Yeah, that's really, really deep. Not a way to deal when evil's coming at you to remember that you'll be safe from that if you're in this place of goodness. Yeah. So how you respond is crucial to whether it hurts you or not, right? And goodness, again, we're talking about, we're not prescribing a certain set of actions, we're talking about motivation. And as you'll see in the next section, the difference between how the spiritual world operates in the physical world. Off, yes, right. You know, it, you can't just say, oh, something bad happened to me, that means I don't have a goodness in the physical world. It's a different set of mechanisms. They also know that he would not be able to protect them if, as a result of the evil they do, they see, look, this, we're trying to not do, see with hostility, hatred, and revenge, because these emotions turn away the protection. And I see the words, as a result of the evil they do, like if they did evil, yeah, somebody did evil to them, so they do evil, right? Oh, oh, that's going to cause all these emotions in them. They're gonna see with hostility and hatred and revenge, you know, so doing that action will cause all these feelings, and that will lose them the divine protection that they actually need. In that sort of like, win the battle, lose the war. Okay. That felt good in the moment, but now you have, you have brought on this sort of corruption, which in the end leaves you less safe. We, this is something we have talked about a lot here. There's five episodes I want to give you for reference if you want to jump out and check them out. One is that justice is different than retaliation. We did a show called Rediscovering Forgiveness. Stopping the behavior is important for the victim and the perpetrator, but we discussed that in detail here. Also, nobody actually gets away with bad behavior in the long run. It can be maddening to think when you don't do retaliate against people who do this, don't they need justice? Justice seems so unfair, like they got away with it. We did nothing. Justice is omnipresent. Any justice is ubiquitous. Maybe it takes time. But this is an episode where we talk about where Swedenborg saw people who had committed crimes during life having to face those crimes. It does smooth out in the end. Also, talk about the different ways that the, the leadership is the law of attraction, real. And this sort of how in the spiritual world, as we saw in that quote, there is much more of a what you put out comes back to you. Even though that's not, yeah, a physical. Also, that doesn't quite work that way in this world all the time, but yes, in the spiritual world, it's an absolute law. Right. And what's it like to express love? How do you do that? Well, it depends. Sometimes it's soft, sometimes it needs to be hard. We talked about that in this show. How to Love. Also, a show, Should You Love Everyone the Same? Recent episode of News from Heaven. That's the setup. All that stuff was just a setup. So now let's get into what did Jesus's words actually mean? It's time now for our three seats.
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So now let's start to break down in three separate chunks of symbolism in Jesus' words. As, and this first one, it's important to keep these straight right now. This is a mess. This is the message to people in the spiritual world. You know, we talked about he's got audience that's spiritual, an audience is physical. You may say, what, first of all, that sounds weird, but second of all, what is that? Okay, that's not even talking to me. But we all have spirits, and we're all headed to be in the spiritual world. So this is very relevant, but it's not directly applicable to the physical side of things. Apocalypse Explained 5:56. Here are the things involved in what the Lord said, the meanings of which will be listed in order. An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, means that if a person takes away someone else's comprehension of and feeling for the truth, their own comprehension of and feeling for the truth will be taken away to the same degree. That's really astonishing. So in the spiritual realm, if I try to go after your truth, I lose truth while I do it. Really? Literally? And a spiritual tooth, or a spiritual life, you know, yeah, I will lose my spiritual eye because I did that evil. This goes into this, this communal human form, I think that Swedenborg says, even you have, you're a person, but even large communities are like a person, even heaven in totality can be seen as a person, even back down. And the thoughts and feelings. So I think you were making the point earlier before the show that if I go and think I can just go harm this person, and I'm harming their person, but not mine, you're, you're participating in that harm. You are in that harm. That's the way it is in spirit. You can't just say, here's the victim, and all perpetrating, and not be attached to that. You're, you're hurting yourself there. Okay. So here we're talking about the feeling for truth. Don't damage the feeling for truth. That is the spiritual equivalent of those things. And I means a comprehension of the truth. A tooth means a feeling for the truth, because a tooth represents the kinds of truth and falsity that sense-based people have. So the eye is a little more interior, right, with all its subtleties and so on. Truth is a little more, it's just kind of grinding, yeah, no, but people. So people have something that's good going on, don't mess with it, or if you do, it's gonna end up that you will hurt your own spiritual eye or tooth. Yes, right. Those who practice Christian goodness will, here we go, in the spiritual world, yeah, don't try this at home. Those who practice Christian goodness will allow an evil person to take these things away, the feeling for truth, and the other thing, as it's described, whatever that was, that the desire for true, yes, yes, and the comprehension. That's what, as is described by what the Lord said about this issue. Do not resist an evil person, means we need not fight back against evil people or repay their evil. Angels do not fight with evil people. See, we're in talking about the spiritual world again, yeah. My plan to fight with them, repay evil with evil. Instead, they allow an evil person to act because they are protected by the Lord. So none of the evil from hell can do them harm. Which Swedenborg experienced that over and over, that you'll spirit over to do stuff, and they couldn't. If somebody slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to them also, means if anyone wants to do harm to our perception or comprehension of inner truth, they are allowed to, as much as they want to try. The cheek means a perception and comprehension of inner truth. And because cheek is kind of what keeps the teeth in there, interesting, yeah. The right cheek means an affection for that truth. Oh, here we got the Russian for this, even goes so far as to tell you what the right and left mean. Rosy affection for truth. So the right, which leads to a perception of it. The left cheek means a comprehension of that truth. Because it says she get off such a slap, which is what you do to cheeks, which mean to do harm. So, so if someone, yeah, tries to damage this love you have for the truth, they try to undermine it, yeah, try to take it away from you, or talk you, you know, make an argument against it, or, yeah, or tear it down. So that, that seems to be what, yeah, what Swedenborg experienced is over and over again. You read his journal, spiritual experiences, it's chock full of evil spirits of all stripes and numbers going after him and trying to destroy things, and he's just taken notes because he knows the Lord protects him. Now, in the spiritual world, but I wonder how much of that is applicable in terms of, you know, it doesn't, it's not talking about physical violence or actual stealing of objects, but if it's talking about people trying to hurt you through concepts and things, how much of it is, if you have this sense of, I don't need revenge, evil carries its own punishment, the Lord will take care of this, can you sort of roll with those punches enough? I don't know, I haven't tried that a lot, but it could be something that applies to our spirits right now, to an extent. You said, as a, in our attitudes and so on, right? You know, because then you're not talking about somebody doing physical harm to your physical cheek, yeah, they're really attacking something in your mind, you know, they're trying to undermine with some argumentation or, or something to try to draw you away from from where you are in terms of loving the truth and yet enjoying it. And somebody else is trying to tear that down and rain on your parade. It sounds sort of like you'd be okay, go ahead, say what you want to say about that. Not necessarily about their verbally abusing you or someone else, but if they're going after an idea, okay, see what you want to say, and you, I've got some kind of core that you're not going to disrupt. And hopefully, you're maybe that you can take it in and God sorts it out so that now you understand your truth better. I don't know, because if you got down into, I hate you, why did you? I'm gonna get you. How can I hurt you as much as you hurt me? Right, you've lost your high ground, right? You've gone down into the ring, right? And you've lost that, that spiritual connection. So then you're being harmed by it. You're trying to harm them. Yeah, but up here, you're safe. You're not, not, you know, being hurt in that same way. Yeah. So is it possible to have like a breakdown or something? Some weed or anything? Okay, is that right? Let's take a piece of a piece. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, means anyone trying to deprive someone else of an understanding of truth will lose their own understanding in the spiritual world. Do not resist an evil person, means you don't need to repay evil with evil, because the Lord will spiritually protect your goodness. If someone slaps your right cheek, turn your other cheek, means if someone wants to harm your deeper affection for truth, or your deeper comprehension of truth, you can let them try. The Lord protects those things in you. This is getting right to our question that we had about what does it mean, turn the other cheek. Okay. Yep, yep, that's right. That's it. So, okay. The, what, why don't we continue with some more of the symbolism for people in the spiritual world? This is continuing with Apocalypse Explained 5:56. If anyone wants to take you to court and take away your shirt, here the shirt is what was called the coat, and the other one, and the coat becomes a cloak, and so, but you get that it's an inner garment and an outer garment, right? If anyone wants to take you to court and take away your shirt, let them have your coat too, means if anyone wants to take away the inner truth that you have, let them take the outer truth as well. I mean, strange. A shirt means truth that is deeper, and a coat means truth to the shallower. The angels let this happen when they're around evil people, because evil people cannot take any truth or goodness away from angels. They can, however, take it from people who burn with hostility, hatred, and revenge. You know, that's why you're vulnerable. Yeah, if you descend into the, I'm gonna get you back, they can, they can take your right then you need to worry about them getting your coat and your cloak and everything. But not if you stay in that high ground, because those kinds of evil reject and turn away the Lord's protection. It's all about what we need to do to stay in the sweet spot where we're protected. Whoever forces you to go a mile, in fact, it's terminal. Don't go with them too, means do not resist anyone who wants to lead you away from truth toward falsity. Hey, let me undermine your thought, and I'll show you another thing, and I'll really, you know, make a compelling argument, and away from goodness toward evil, because they're unable to do it. A mile has a similar meaning to a road, since it relates to coming and going. Give, continuing with them. Someone of the man. Give to everyone who asks of you, means to allow it. Do not turn away from anyone wishing to borrow from you. Borrowing in Swedenborg always has to do with teaching, which is so interesting that you, when you get taught something, it's as if you're borrower, you don't own it, you're borrowing it, you know, maybe later you, you buy it or something. But, but means if someone wants to be taught, they should be taught, even if it was a really bad person saying, hey, teach me more about spiritual stuff, you know, and go ahead. Teach. Evil people want to be taught so that they can pervert and deprive in the spiritual world, we're talking about. Yep. Yet they're incapable of doing so. They can't do it. This is the spiritual sense of these sayings, an explanation of the hidden aspects lying within these words. These hidden aspects, unlike us here on this planet, are most apparent to the angels, who perceive the word only according to its spiritual sense. They are also, oh, here he goes, is not only for angels. They're also for people in the world who are in a place of good. When evil people attempt to lead them astray, it's clear from numerous experiences that that is the way evil people oppose those whom the Lord protects. Since, and Swedenborg suddenly switches into his own personal experience here, since they have continually tried as hard as they can, every way to take truth and goodness away from me, but in vain. I'm still here. I still believe what I believe. They've, they've tried everything. We gave it their best job. I wonder if there's nothing talking about these spiritual encounters he's having all the time, or if he's talking about he actually had their people in the world they were really trying to mess with him. It's hard to tell sometimes of Swedenborg, like he's in both worlds. And right, yeah, it's hard to tell. But I think spiritually it applies in both sure realms, right? And you think about just that portrait of an angel there, and that you perhaps think that when an angel gets close to evil spirits, and evil spirit can't even mess with one little part of an angel's beautiful mind. And but that actually this very zen-ish, an angel is like, oh, you, you would like to try to defeat me and these in those ways, please go for it. But it doesn't really get them, you know, they're like, you, they're calm in the middle of the storm. And that's cool because they're concentrating on not, I'm no revenge, no revenge, no event. Yeah, that the game, the actual game one is not, can you do whatever sort of take this truth, whatever that means. It's even with you taking this truth, I'm not going to fall into hatred and rent. Isn't that just like Jesus Christ? The whole, this is God coming into the world, and he's got all these enemies. I'm just realizing this now. He's got all these enemy screwed. And how does it, does Jesus really do a lot of fighting people off? He's, he was punching and kicking at the crucifixion. Every, everybody just runs him over. And yeah, he's able to accomplish. And there's a, the hard, the hardest thing he does, according to some people, was forgive people when he's up on the cross. Again, I'm not saying that this is how we should do it, but there's some something to when Jesus is talking to the angels, he's saying, hey, you, because you're in this spiritual world with these conditions, you can be more like me. This is how you do it. And this is where, how you get that power. Okay. It does give me the insight that that the, it's actually like the angel wants to benefit the evil spirit. You know, it's love there, right? And so one way to benefit that evil spirit is to show that your revenge stuff doesn't work. Like, get over it. You have anything, you know, it doesn't work. And so just to, okay, go ahead, do your worst. Yeah, doesn't affect me, you know, it's, it's not just, I'm gonna stay in myself and the heck with you, you know, it's, this is to bless you to realize that all your, all your hatred doesn't have the impact that you desire to have. Let's recap. We're gonna recap. Another recap. Okay, this is cool. These recaps. If someone wants to take your shirt, let them have your coat too, means if someone wants to take away inner truth that you have, you can let them try to take your outer truth to. No one can actually take truth away from you when you're in a state, crucial point, of goodness. Whoever forces you to go a mile, go with them too, means you don't need to resist someone who wants to lead you away from truth into falsity, because when you're safe to goodness, they can't do that. Yep. And then the next one. Give to everyone who asks, allow these attempts, don't turn away those wishing to borrow from you. If someone wants to be taught, go ahead and teach them. In the end, evil people are powerless to use that knowledge to deprive good people of their inner goodness and truth. In this, if we're talking about in the spiritual world, Swedenborg in his spiritual encounters was all the time given all the secrets of wisdom to any evil spirit that asked about it. He spent endless hours talking to evil spirits. Okay, so what I wanted, wisdom and truth and stuff, are we just gonna say it's all about the spiritual world? Well, when does it apply to us? And it could be that when Jesus is giving us this message about turn the other cheek, that we think this applies all the time, equally, 24/7. This is a general behavioral principle. But it seems like Swedenborg could
be asserting that this does apply to us in our own spirits as we go through what are called temptations in this world. that this actually the same kind of interplay that takes place in the spiritual world can take place within our psyche as the forces of good and evil clash within us. this is secrets of heaven nine oh four nine.
but now I must say what is meant in an inner sense by the words of the Lord quoted above. same thing sermon on the moment in an inner sense. the passage concerns those who seek to use falsity to destroy religious truth and therefore spiritual life in a person on earth who is being tested and persecuted in good and in good spirits who are being harassed by evil spirit. also you have two groups there. people on earth are being tested and persecuted and good spirits after death. ooh right and looking out. they're just used interchangeably there. that these principles that seem like okay there are spiritual principles I could never live like this with other people but you and your spirit can live like this when you're being assaulted by inner anxieties and by concepts and my thoughts like in our minds. yes when there is an attack on your principles in you you can actually live like an angel and gain that same kind of strength. I do that symbolizes a desire for deep truth and a right job as I are for truth from goodness. slobbing it symbolizes the act of damaging that desire. oh that seems really important. so someone's trying to I see that you love this stuff and I'm gonna try to ruin that for you. I'm gonna try to take that away. even if you don't hear that isn't that how sometimes our inner world can act. something that we do seem to love comes under attack in a million ways and we can panic. but this is saying don't panic because that stuff can't actually hurt something good. these dark inner clouds I could say. no good deed goes unpunished. yeah a coat and cloak symbolize truth and its outward appearance. dragging someone into a lawsuit symbolizes an effort to destroy that truth. a mile symbolizes that which leads to truth. a mile having the same symbolism as a way or a path which in the spiritual world is a way to get to a new state. leading me lending means teaching. this explanation shows what is symbolized by giving to everyone who asks. proclaiming one's belief in the Lord fully and completely. the reason one is therefore not to resist evil is that evil does not hurt anyone supplied with truth and goodness because the Lord keeps people like this safe. I will say would that proclaiming the Lord fully and totally you can have real mixed results with that in the world. if I believe in God I believe in God. so it might make you feel good. it might not. it rarely is gonna facilitate a conversation. it's not gonna stop somebody from harming you. but I do find when I'm in my mind and I'm under attack and it feels like everything's closing in to be that assertive inside myself. yeah almost like cast out that stuff. right actually can be immensely powerful in shifting my psychological state. that's right. that's right. somehow sometimes I've had the grace to pray for the evil spirits who are attacking me. yeah because like I'm just fogged in from every side and then I pray. I think these these these folks are in this state all the time. you know and and it and it dissipates. you know so that we can take everything we learned about heaven and angels and apply it to how we act. the apply the Sermon on the Mount to how we act when we're under attack internally. so it's challenging though. you gotta say like this is not like easy T. whether it's spiritual or physical. it's not easy to not have the revenge thing kicking it's almost visceral isn't it. totally. wherever it's coming from. it's like stop gotta push back. right a fight back for a couple of ideas on how to try to maintain a good state even when you're feeling under attack. if we did a show called three simple ways to move everyone which is really not even about how you treat other people but how you respond inside when there are people doing things. these are techniques to get you into that calm state of mind. and then while there was also a show called how to love your enemies and what is that even mean. which by the way comes from like the verse after this story. the we just yeah just happens to come from that's right after this in the Sermon on the Mount. alright so there you go. there's our seeds. let's let all of this settle. there's been a lot of information here. let's get a little into the emotional side of our being and see if we can't broaden this and expand it. it's time for our meditation.
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so here we use the beautiful world around us to drive home the concepts we're learning because according to Swedenborg according to the idea of correspond says which we're talking about. oh the cheek symbolizes something. the eye symbolizes something. the things we see around us are actually a map of all these spiritual concepts. so here we've been talking about the idea you know the darkness can't drive out darkness. coldness can't get rid of coldness. actually it's a light that gets rid of darkness. it's heat that gets rid of coldness. so let's actually watch that happening. and as you see light coming to where there was darkness and what warmth does to something or that is cold. let's see if that gives you more insight. more connection to these concepts. and just what comes to you and what deeper truths it reveals.
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it is just so cool to talk about darkness and light and in sort of a vague abstract blurry way but actually get to see it. oh yeah. and to be able to connect those amazingly beautiful things that happen in the world with these amazingly beautiful concepts. to me is just this amazing hit of whatever spiritual power. it's a poem about how you know ice is powerless in the face of heat. it doesn't like put up a good fight or you know. yes it's just powerless. and the darkness is powerless in the face of light. yeah it just has to back up to wherever the light wants to go. it gets to go. yeah. so it's neat to think about that. and yet they're also very peaceful. right images. is the order of the of the world. yeah. okay. so hopefully that helps us settle a little bit. I think it's good time to look back and just from the 10,000 foot view. what's the take away. what has all this. if you had to summarize what we've been through or the significance of it. what do you get from all that. I guess the way that I I don't know if I can do it succinctly but I think what it means to me from what we've been learning tonight is that okay. if someone attacks you physically or there's something going on. you know there probably needs to be some kind of a response on that physical. that you know the the Jesus teaching is not about just be a doormat. just lie down and take any abuse that anybody wants to dish out kind of thing. in terms of the way the physical world works. but what is your state of mind. if we burn with revenge. we we lose. and evil actually damages us. but if we stay in that place of forgiveness and understanding. we get to stay in the Lord. and then we are invulnerable in our spirits. now and after death. it can't hurt us. so if somebody does something harmful to you. whatever you're doing physically to protect yourself. turn the other cheek in that you're not going to get you know retaliate in in motive. right. you know you're not going to they're like okay now I'm angry at you. the ideal that we're pushing to. which once again. it's really difficult to get to. is somebody harms me. and even as I'm stopping them. I am NOT hating them. yes wishing them well. and I imagine as Swedenborg went through this with spirits in the other world with people in this world. yeah his faith deepened and deepened about it. really is true. they can't hurt me. it really is true. you know. right on again and again and again. seeing that that he's protected. and that's for what it's worth. everyone out there according to Swedenborg. that's literally true. because even though we can have pain from the things people can do to us. the only thing that actually can harm you long term is loving and practicing evil. that no matter how much great sure we get. it's what comes out of the heart that hurts you. not anything from outside. yeah. you can suffer and suffer a lot. but it's all going to be temporary. only thing that can harm permanently is the loving of evil. so even if somebody's doing these terrible things. yes you're defending yourself. if you don't get into a state of mind that's evil. that is revenge seeking. and there's a difference between. of course there's such a thing as zeal. and you may not be able to tell the difference. but right. what I'm saying is you actually can't be harmed by being hurt. if you stay in love long term. you're not harmed. right. okay. that's right. that's what that's what they say anyway. okay. now speaking of being harmed. do we really have what it takes to do this elevator pitch. we're gonna find out right now.
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by now it's too late probably for me to say. but if nobody's puttin any ideas. get your elevator pitch ideas in right now. what. so you just saw the amazing sprawling complexity of some of this stuff. hey wouldn't you wouldn't you like to see something succinct and short and clear. can you take these ideas and not just say what they are in a minute but why they matter. it's a pitch. we both stepped onto an elevator and you're gonna go. just do you first again. right. yeah. okay. okay. it's kind of become the norm. yeah. that's right. we ran out of tricks. right. who does it. so Jonathan is right now gonna pitch to me why something exists and what's good about it. in our segment that we call. so let's see what you have all cooked up for dr. Jonathan Rose. the first fall correspondences. ooh. I'm assuming we're talking about this autumn. yes. which is upon us here in the northeastern United States and elsewhere around the globe. okay. so let's get going and see what you can't say about that kind of stuff. I'm on the air. you know we have a where's a youth focused culture. people feel like it's it's better to be young to be beautiful and to get old and sickly and all that is not so great. but Swedenborg says that the seasons of the year actually correspond to the parts of our lives. and that the spring is like our infancy early childhood and so on. that the summers like our youth our adulthood goes on. and then that fall is the end of our life in old age. and when you see the fall. yes you're losing the chlorophyll. yes the tree is protecting itself and so on. but the leaves get so beautiful. you see the actual color of the leaves. that lay behind that chlorophyll. that was there all that time. and so you see this beautiful beauty and the richness of the of the end of life. these are the blessings that can come from the Lord at the end of our lives. so it's encouraging to feel hey. this is a good orderly process. this is something good. very nice. as we enter the the fall of the minute. there. that's awesome man. I didn't even think. I never thought before. if that's the actual color of the leaves. that's what I'm told. but is this amazing. yeah. that even though the fall is signaling the oncoming winter. show you go ahead. find me something more beautiful then. right. and a really nice late October day. great. great. I love it. all right. okay. so you all Jonathan survived. will see a finalist. fortunate. the one that I'm going to be doing right now is corresponds to the moon. okay. okay. oh we got it. start this clock. I was shocked the other day. just looking up at the moon. and it's like half moon. you can see the shadow on it. and just to realize it is a giant ball of rock out there. and that ball is bright on one half because this sun is just another ball. that's right. over there. space distance is so big that you don't really think of them. it's just they're just objects in relationship to each other. and it really just hit me like. I feel like I'm in Knight. which is this zone that's a complete and total. because it was night at the time. but the sun is just right over there. it's right over there. and guess what the moon is doing. the moon is reminding me. and so letting me see the sun a little bit. that's the sun's like coming off of it. so even when it's dark on my own. I can see the sun. does moon correspond to faith. and and particularly the moon when it's night is when the love may not be there. but the faith is there. that helps you remember. wait a second. this is a symbol reminding me that the sun is out there. there's a love that God is out there. even though it seems like it's dark here. I got that moon. it's like oh. that is the sun's light. it's just right behind the other side of giant earth. that's getting in the way. which could be your love of self. and all that it's there. good. all right guys. we survived it. that's right. that's right. I really didn't think we would this time. but we did. let's see. will we survive it next time. tune and then and find out. we shortly get harder. oh man. man. there's a good. can we slowly get worse and worse at it. because we're getting older and older. I mean. I won't be more beautiful. bye. no. wait. wait. what was yours. so we're gonna now get to you. we want to hear from you. we had this question in the beginning like this. we're gonna hear your responses to it. but before we do. you know this stuff is only made possible by your contributions. we are not-for-profit entity. here's how you can help more of this kind of programming happen. please consider joining our community of sustaining supporters by going to ot le causevox calm and setting up a recurring monthly donation at a value of your choice. any amount helps. our sustaining supporters are the backbone of what we do. it off the left eye and allow us to continue to create high-quality programming that nourishes thousands every week around the globe. your help makes a difference. all right. what do you guys have to say. this is where remember that question way back in the beginning. this is how we opened ourselves up to this trajectory of thought and feeling. and it was. what's a way to use positive heavenly energy to deal with someone else's negative behavior and attitude. who hasn't been in that situation. mmm. I'm genuinely curious to see. what did you all think. what's the way to do it. so this is what you had to say. kill them with kindness. yeah. I counteract with kind words about that person. realize you can only control your reaction. and try to give the benefit of the doubt. by the way. there's all these answers. so good. remember that the person is listening to hell. that gives me compassion. and I don't want to make the same mistake. does it really sound great. they're not the pure origin of that external to them. yeah. it would depend if it was persistent non-stop melancholy emotions. I would say I'd probably ask to be excused. right. say something nice about them. they look at you like wow. it works. and also serves as a sign. he won't take part like that. what I did a couple of times. has changed the subject and give them a compliment. it freaked them out so bad. never had nothing problem with them. laugh out loud. think of them as someone who is sick. rather than evil. wow. those are great suggest. I think sitting with them and relating his proved most beneficial to not only them but me. it's a mutual empathic relatability. making certain I don't attempt a one-up on them. simply sitting with them. hmm. it depends on the person and what they do or say. how often it is. it can be just walking away. try to learn a bit about God's love for all people. mmm. first smile. then remember we are all on a spiritual path. some up board. some downward. then remember the old adage. if you don't have something nice to say. in the martial art of Aikido. you must surrender and stop trying to an effect an outcome you want. and allow the spiritual energy to take over. which allows an opponent to defeat themselves. very much like the Angels ground. yes. first I would acknowledge their feelings. and then just be a witness to their feelings without trying to then my own ego. right. right. self-awareness is the first step to change. and then finally humor is a great way to defuse negativity. I wish there's deliberate humor in the Bible. and in Swedenborg. I want to hang around funny angels. yes. and do what you would you kind of think of angels as like they're a bit goody-goody. they couldn't. but they've got to be hilarious. because it like wisdom is their route of humor. being able to understand some perceived things about life and describe them in. isn't that really. it's truth-telling. so it's kind of angels are not just like well I'm okay. I'll call you one. you know. they've got to be funny. Isaac means laughter. and yeah. I do think there Swedenborg says they don't have this sort of mocking. right. kind of slicing sarcastic humor or something. which is. but I think their wisdom and perspective on themselves. and you're our own lower nature. they've got to be outrageously funny. I think we'll see. they got a lot of lip live to live up to now. right. as of do you all at home. because when we're asking you again. like and subscribe. just help us out a little bit. that would be great. and the reason we say help us out. is we're trying to do a lot of cool stuff for you all. to prove it. here's what's coming up this week. we have our regularly scheduled programs. you know news from heaven. where we dive deep into a Swedenborg quote. on Thursday. we're gonna be talking about how your outer self needs to obey your inner self. and why. and then Saturday. why spirits try to make you upset. and then our short clips. you all voted. the spiritual meaning of number seven through nine one. so we'll have a short clip about that. and then the information about cherubim is the following. right next Monday. we've got a show that's called good question. which is where we sit and answer questions. the whole time. we'll be doing that. then. and it will welcome back our panel of friends. in the following Monday. we'll be taking a trip to ask. what would a City of Angels be like. wrapping up this season with us. hey. what would it be like. we talked about angels being funny. what would it be like to live among angels. and how could we approach that here. so it should be a great time. hey speaking of great times. thanks so much for hanging. that was a lot of great fun. thanks to all of you. this is really a great wonderful experience for both of us. and thanks for making it possible. and we'll see you very soon.
sweet Morgan life live is Curtis childs host and showrunner with co-host Jonathan Rose. livestream tech and graphics by Stewart farmer and Matthew childs. show writing and chat moderation by Caron childs and Chelsey odhner. you
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