DEBATE: Does Easter Have Pagan Origins? || Mike Jones VS Cingeto Of Belgae

So now we've got the previews. Hey everybody, excited to have you here as today we debate whether or not Easter has pagan origins. And we're starting right now.

Hey everybody, thrilled to have you here. As mentioned, today we are debating whether or not Easter has pagan origins. And as the holiday approaches, this is going to be especially interesting as we have two gentlemen who have read a lot about these issues. And we're only one week away. So with that, want to do the introductions. Let you know that everybody's links are down in the description box. So if you're like, "Oh man, I'm totally diggin' King Ghetto, he's got some really interesting stuff," or you're like, "Alright, Mike Jones, he drives me crazy," you can go check out their stuff. You know what? They're gonna grow on you, you're gonna love them.

So same thing with JMD, our moderator. He's not here today, helping us out, which we totally appreciate as well. And so, just want to give each of the speakers maybe like one or two sentences if they just want to share what they've been up to at their channel or blog. And we are thrilled to have all of you here. And we can actually, JMD, if you're willing to start us off by just mentioning what you've been up to at your channel, we'd be thrilled to hear about it. And just want to remind everybody that JMD and everybody else are linked in the description. So thanks for being here. JMD?

Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me moderate. So I recently just hit 1K and I'm planning on doing a 1K subscriber hanging out probably next week sometime. And then I want to do a just a live Q&A, I think, with a bunch of some famous apologists and maybe some others for a thousand subscribers special. And then I did Devil's Advocate with Inspiring Philosophy last week. People can check that out, that's the second most recent video. And I did an interview with Braxton Horner yesterday. So that's what's been going on there at the moment.

So excellent. That's rad, man. Congrats on 1K, that's great. And also Mike Jones from Inspiring Philosophy. Glad to have you here. If you want to share what you've been up to at Inspiring Philosophy, we're thrilled to have you.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me. I have a series coming up on the Old Testament in Genesis starting soon. Basically, all that's going on right now with me. Just finished a bunch of series on objections to Christianity and theism. So, yeah, especially what I've been doing, going on. I have a debate I'm capturing Christianity channel coming up next month with David Fitzgerald on dying, rising gods and Jesus' existence. So, yeah, that's what's going on right now.

That is awesome. Really interesting. We'll try to plug that so the audience gets a reminder about that debate. And very thrilled to have you here. And King Ghetto, we're glad to have you. Thanks for coming by to stuff, have this really interesting discussion. If you want to share what you've been up to lately, whether it be reading, writing, particular ideas that you're really interested in, we're glad to have you here and thanks for coming.

Thank you. Basically, what I've been up to is I'm, I don't have a channel yet, but I am, me and some friends are working on some so he can make proper content for about polity ISM, things like that.

Moment. You bet. Well, we're glad you're here. And so with that, I'm gonna kick it over to JMD. He's gonna be our moderator. Just in case we have any sort of confusion during the dialogue or anything like that. JMD, he'll just kind of say, "Oh, okay, I think there's a misunderstanding." Anything like that, he will handle. I'll be in the live chat. If anybody has any questions for the speakers as well. We'll go about 45 minutes or so of open discussion between the speakers. Then we're going to go to the Q&A. And at that point, we will read off your questions. And to make them a little bit easier for me to read, if you just started off with "@moderndaydebate" and then "question for IP" or "Mike Jones" or "question for King Ghetto," that'll make it a little bit easier as well. And then JMD and I will read those off during the Q&A. So JMD, the floor is yours to get us started on the discussion.

Yeah, so whether Easter has pagan origins is, you know, probably an important conversation since, you know, Easter is about the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. And whether that has pagan influences, but the important question, I think. So with that, I open up the discussion to both IP and Ghetto.

Yeah, I need to state what I basically believe. And then can get open go. And what'd he say? I don't, I'm not, I won't claim that there are no pagan origins. I just say there was not enough sufficient evidence or there is no clear evidence of any sort of causation that any tradition in Easter, where it's the egg, the Easter Bunny, or the name Easter, can go back to some sort of pagan ancient holiday or whatnot. If there is, I'd like to, if we can discuss it, if there's any sort of evidence that can get up as we can go over. Looking at our early sources as best I can, and what scholars say on it. There's just not a lot of moments to say yes to it does have pagan origins.

I hold the opposite view. I do believe there's evidence that it has pagan origins. I'm not one to deny that it has Christian origins. That's fairly obvious from what history says. But I also believe specifically Easter. I'm kind of separate Paschal on Easter generally. You know, Paschal, that's an argument for a different day. But, um, but I do believe that Easter does have pagan origins. And I think there is clear evidence. We can go over that soon enough. If you have anything, if you have any objections to certain things that I may end up bringing up, I'd like to hear it. But I do believe there are certain texts and stuff that contribute to it, and other linguistic techniques and things that can show us. I'm pretty sure, as you already know, I have the Venerable Bede. That's one that outright says it. I also have, have you ever heard of the old German High Lullaby?

Yeah.

It is still disputed, I'll admit that. But, um, Grimm does hold in her, Grimm did, I'm he's dead, but Grimm did hold it in high esteem and think that I had very, there's very good arguments for its authenticity. Why don't I start with Bede? Because there's a lot of problems in reading Bede. I mean, he admits that he sort of making things up to his own interpretation. And I mean, a lot of modern scholars call him out. I mean, Alexander Tilly directly said he just invented, and I quote, "an imaginary cult." There was a lot of problems and he contradicts himself a couple of times when trying to do these dates and whatnot. So I'd like to know why, why, what does Bede say and why would that be able to say it has some sort of pagan origin?

But his Bede say specifically? I can go down to a fuel meter really doc, but I'll respond because I was prepared to talk while Bede.

Okay, well, mostly his reckoning of time, chapter 15. He talks about he first goes over March and it, and then Hoot's maimed after that. He goes over Eostre month, which is April, which Unison named out. There's also called Pascal month for the Christian celebration. And then it talks about how it is directly comes from the old celebration of the goddess Eostre, which is also etymologically linked with Ostara, which is that Teutonic god of the Continental Germanic tribes, not just the Anglo-Saxons. So, um, he goes over that. And one reason I'd support, when one reason I give to an his credit to his authenticity about this specifically is how little he talks about paganism. So why would he make something up just to talk more about paganism when he tries to avoid it in the first place? He's not really talking about paganism so much, but he is talking about alleged pagan festivals, alleged pagan goddesses. So he's talking about it like, you know, we're beating around the bush, kind of, so to speak, in terms of what he's talking about. Though, for example, he talks about the month of February being Solmonath, would you suppose to be month of cakes? We're not really sure where he got that from. I mean, Tilly and Ronald Hutton said he basically made it up. Same with the month supposed to come after that, the month for March. He says that to me after a god, write-up, or a goddess named Reod, and we don't have any evidence that she existed. And then he follows it with Eostre and says he's saying he's, you know, making these things to his own interpretation. It seems mostly like he's just looking at certain things and going, "Well, I think this may have some sort of pagan god." It's fine. I mean, why else would they call it? Instead of actually fact-checking, even looking for the sources. For example, in that same chapter, he contradicts himself. He opens the chapter by saying, "These people calculated their seasons according to the cycles of the moon." And then the varying a couple of seconds later, he starts positing that, "Oh yeah, they had celebrated this, this day like modern Eostre on this specific day, according like a solar calendar." And it's like, "Well, wait a minute. You said they would calculate according to the moon." Unless because they, that's because they fused together solar and lunar calendars. It happened in Gaul as well. You can see with the Gallic calendar. A lot of people fuse together. That's how Rome influenced you. You see a lot of fusion of that. Well, if that's the case, though, that's where we're talking about when pre-Christian Romans have moved up there. And that's what Hutton actually argues is that a lot of these festivals, like modern Eostre, the Eostre ring up, was actually just a paganized version of Mother's Night, which was celebrated on December 25th for the Virgin Mary. So it's that these were sort of like, you know, it's sort of like Loki and Thor, is that they were like the Norse versions of Jesus and Satan. Yeah, was I like, Thor and Loki. And so it was sort of like, you know, backwards influencing type thing kind of going on. It was originally a Christian thing that was turned into a pagan thing. And then Bede is talking about it without the actual real origins to it.

And what does Hutton use as backup for his claim, other than it could happen with regards to what? With regards to, um, that it was originally Christian and paganized?

Well, he starts with Mother's Night. Mother's Night, not Mother's Night. It sounds like Mother's Night. And if you go to the actual, his actual book called The Reckoning of Time, he basically explains that, I'm not directing, I'm sorry, The Stations of the Sun. He basically explains that, you know, there is no other mentions of these sources. There's no other mentions of these alleged holidays. Bede admits he's making things up to his own interpretation. So it seems as though the only thing associated on Mother's Night, like for example, December 25th, is the Virgin Mary. So that seems to be most likely where it's coming from. That's what Alexander Tilly says. That's what Hutton says. It just seems like that's the most likely explanation concerning Bede not really investigating a lot of this stuff. He's just sort of inventing things, pacing as an interpretation.

There's an interpretation of what he said that you take, and interpreted it, interpreted it. But, um, but this fun chain. But, um, well, how would you say if it could use? What would you say if Adam, if Ostara etymologically collaborated with another month that was written down, reckoning of time in 980, right? Or 800?

Well, the Frankish scholar, I cannot find his name. There's a Frankish scholar who also recorded the name of a month. Germans still call it to this day, Eostre. Which would also be relating to us etymologically linked. If you were know about how they're linked, they both go back to Proto-Germanic, which, and they both basically mean east, and they also mean shining, which is also referring to a sort of, you know, how the sun rises and stuff and sets and things like that. I think what Bede did is he heard these months and he tried to posit where they came from. And he posited goddesses like, you know, like Reod, or Eostre. And that's the problem. That was the connection. No one doubted that the, you know, Hutton, until he, don't doubt these months existed. That these were the names of the month. They, the other doubting that their actual origin. I mean, Ostara month just means like month of the opening. So what we think, what kind of a pretty good explanation.

Well, he thinks Bede is doing is he's trying to do more Roman syncretism. He's positing a goddess name of Eostre based on a dawn goddess that you see in Greek cultures, Eos, and Roman mythology, Aurora. And he's saying, "Well, it's the month of the opening. Maybe it's also Dawn." And the other Roman goddess of war, Aura, is also Eos. So maybe they had a version of Eos. And so it's just like, it, it seems like it's not a conjecture based on Bede and not actual evidence.

So why would corroborate so well with what the Frankish scholar put down as well then?

Well, I'm talking about the goddess origin. About about the Frankish scholar, like the, but I have to find him. It starts with an E. He was, um, Charlemagne, to my notes. But, mmm. And starting off, when it comes to Eostre month, and there's a Eostre month. I mean, Eostre, Bede doesn't want to ever mention this alleged Eostre. I mean, the month. I mean, again, we know the month was, was really the name of an actual month. It's the questioning on, was it actually based on a goddess, or was it just the month of the opening?

Well, it could mean a month of the opening and still be based off of a goddess. It's all conjecture because we have Bede, who's admitting he's making his own interpretation. We can, you know, he's contradicting himself in these places. These in the reckoning of time, consumer containers, places. So, I mean, this is why Tilly just said, just outright says, "You've invented an imaginary cult." I mean, so it's not like, you know, they don't have good reasons for doubting him. I mean, he's interpreting things based on what he sees. He's not actually fact-checking.

And so the collaboration with the Frankish one is just coincidence then?

Well, it's just based on, I'm trying to find it. I can't find the moment because if I remember correctly, I don't have the source in front of me either. But it's, he's just mentioning the name of the month. And that's what we accept. I mean, everyone accepts that there was a monthly Eostre. And that's where the term Easter comes from. But I mean, interestingly enough, up until about the year 1038, the festival of Yule in Anglo-Saxon territories was called the festival of Midwinter in their language. They didn't name it. But I mean, that doesn't mean there wasn't actually a goddess that goes back then. Easter was just, you know, the month of the opening, or based on the month. I think fell upon it. Same as they did with Midwinter is with recent activity. They just started calling the feasts of Midwinter. Oh, yeah.

There's one more thing. Do you accept that Ostara and Eostre are etymologically linked, though? Err, err, Eostre and Ostara? Easter and Eostre?

Etymologically linked? Okay. Then do you also accept that, um, you also accept that they're also etymologically linked? Ostero, the proto of the Proto-Indo-European, the Proto-Germanic goddess?

Well, this isn't about me. This is about the Proto-Germanic. This is Proto-Germanic one of Ostara, Ostara, Aus-tra-oh. And then it comes from the Proto-Indo-European goddess, which is a rising goddess, which you can see in multiple other religions from spring forth from Proto-Indo-European religion. It's just like three things. I mean.

Well, that's what that's how that's what you do in linguistics. You go back and try to reconstruct the old words that they use based off of similarities between the words. Is there, is there a connection?

What frees your mana god has been talking about the Proto-Indo-European one? It relates to what? One second. After scrolling, we're going through this my notes real quick, trying to find the, um, oh, second. Alright, it goes back to Hesus. Yeah, I mean, but anything like proto. I mean, we're talking about cultures they didn't really leave writings behind. So they're not gonna mention.

Well, no, it's not, we're not claiming it to be the exact word they use, but it's the reconstructed one from the similarities. Which any other words, any mythologies have to actually be goddess.

And the argument that, you know, Hutton and Tilly make is that there, there wasn't no goddess. It was Bede imposing later Greek goddess Eos onto a different culture. That's not, I mean, you can claim that, but by concilium similarities between it result from Proto-Indo-European as well. So we're entering like a really deep realm of speculation. And if that's all we really got, we don't really have any solid evidence that there really was some sort of early goddess, or like there's not a lot of strong evidence that there was, let alone there was a festival that fell around the time of Easter.

Oh, you want the evidence for the goddess? For her? There's an inscription that is linked to Ostara. It's called Matrona Eostre. Hey, nay, if I'm pronouncing it right. If you know about that one?

Yeah, it's, yes, he, he did the linguistics of the feminine version of Ostara, the dwarf, which also has the same similar names, meaning a shining, relating to the dawn, and then east as well, which they all connect to.

Yeah, no story, no Eostre. That inscription doesn't really specifically say definitely as a goddess. It's just like a linguistic.

Oh, those are goddesses. Yes, they are. Because of the majority, we're goddesses. Gallic, in Gaul, in German, you know, and the Germanic tribes, they were definitely. You can see by the symbolism since then. A lot of people call into question this translation and what it's actually saying because again, it's really speculative. We're talking about things for which we very little evidence for. Little writings left before.

The Matrona, really think he's actually talking about a goddess in that inscription?

No, the Matrona. You know what? Yeah, I've seen. Whether or not the Matrona were goddesses? Well, no, I'm talking all over Gaul and stuff that were known as goddesses. Yeah, but I mean, go back to the actual inscription and it allegedly mentions Ostara. Okay. So that comes from Jacob Grimm. Jacob Grimm is basically translating based on what he thinks he knows what the original language would have been based on like later linguistic things, kind of like what we're kind of doing now, trying to trace back linguistics. Was he was trying to very similar things. And it was, it was basing a lot of that on really far speculative, speculative ideas and whatnot. It wasn't so much based on actual hard concrete evidence, like when we're reading like Egyptian inscriptions or you know, Sumerian descriptions where we can actually understand the cuneiform or the hieroglyphs. He's basically saying, "Well, it kind of sounds like this. Maybe that's what it's it's coming from." It's not really based on hard data or anything like that.

So the corroboration with all those and Ostara, the dwarf, which is mentioned by Snorri, and the corroboration with the all the names being east and shining, is still coincidence?

Because I'm still trying to get at this, that it isn't, that it can't be inferred based off of what we already know about the feminine version of Ostara and things like that. So it's all coincidence, or what?

I mean, like, here's one of the issues is that, like, just because, like, you know, Spanish and English share, you know, Roman origins. I mean, you're gonna have everything lining up perfectly. And so when people try to do these language reconstruction things, it's really, it's very, very speculative, the type of work. I mean, they're trying to like connect things for which, you know, we have any direct evidence for, based on just word association of sounding. I mean, no one doubts that they had a word for dawn, they don't work for opening, they had a work for Eostre month. The question is, was there ever really a goddess behind it? And based on, you know, later Germanic type ideas of what gods, what was he like, the Northmen themselves, we don't see any parallels.

Oh, yeah, we do. Michael, you've come. Jim. We do. Ostara and Freya. Freya. But Freya's not Ostara. So why? She has a lot of similarities to her. That's important. That's usually what you see within these religions as similarities. They will, they will change based off of different folk traditions that go into it, but they will, they will, they will, they're still similar. Very similar. But Ostara is still etymologically linked. Just because, just because they don't, they sound similar doesn't like, I don't see how that isn't a good indicator that they're closely related.

Similarities in goddesses or gods, regardless. I mean, people try to do this with my Isis and Ananna, or Isis and Asia. Sorry. Really, they're based on totally different cultures. People are just trying to find patterns wherever they can.

The Germanic ones aren't completely different cultures, though.

Well, I mean, with Freya, though, I mean, we're just, there's there's no linguistic similarity between Ostara and Freya. Now, the other one you mentioned, I believe, is a dwarf, correct?

Mm-hmm.

Was in this pair of the sweeter of the rising sun. We'll see. This is a dwarf that's in a different culture. And if there's actually a goddess there, I mean, we need to see some more hard evidence other than just connections. We would expect it to be kind of similar to the term for dawn. But all we have in the Germanic ideas is just, you know, the dawn itself. We need an actual evidence there was a goddess behind the dawn. And that's where they, that's where the Matrona Eostre comes in as the inscription.

Like, all right, but when it comes to...

I can't hear you.

What? Well, that's just basically talking about what I mean, a lot of scholars think about as he's talking about the dawn, not necessarily any worship within Matrona Eostre.

Well, it was a description of a goddess on this. Like, I mean, you said there's flaws from Jake. You said it was flawedly translated from Jacob Grimm. Well, what do the other scholars translate it as, or what if they pointed out that is the flaws with it? Like, what's the flaws with it and how he's translating the inscription? Because we know that we know that those statues and things found all over Gaul and Germanic tribes were were called Matrona, Eostre, Matrona, Eostre. And we know that they were goddesses worshipped. And Matrona Eostre, that would mean that it would be, at the very least, it is a goddess. And it has etymologically linked to Ostara, which is also etymologically linked by meaning east and to the sunrise. Growth, all connecting to Ostara, which would also connect to Easter. Does that make sense?

Okay, I'm sorry. If we have hard evidence with the Matrona Eostre, which would be the inscription, which should, and we know that Matronae in general were just local goddesses in Gaul and within and in and in the Germanic tribes. And we know that, um, Eostre, what else really to Ostara, the dwarf, would just be a feminine feminized version. And we also know that they all etymologically connect to be, what do you call them? Etymologically connect to mean east and to mean the dawn. So, um, why isn't that taken as hard evidence? Like, what, what have the scholars that you've seen cited about Jacob Grimm's interpretation that shows it to be flawed inscription, or it shows it shows these, how it translates the inscription to not be accurate?

Well, the, I mean, the inscription itself is very fragmented. Could just be talking about a proper name. I mean, we have, I think it has like three or four lines. Three or four lines. And it's also mentioned in terms of a Roman inscription, I believe. Mrs. like Marcus Ann Tina sent us for him, lightly deserving. So it's like, what's kind of going on here? We don't really have enough evidence surrounding it to really infer this idea of a a goddess behind it because it, you know, it doesn't actually line up with Ostara. It's another kind of like, different language, different sort of connection type of things. So what scholars name, they simply say is what I've said, is it simply insufficient evidence to say this is actually about a goddess in and of itself. It's just so fragmented and it's left alone by itself.

Yes, we, you can collaborate with other Matronae found all over the Germanic tribes, and they are relating the goddesses. So why, why would, you know, if Ostara connects to that, and also connects to these not months, which profess to be named after goddesses, why does not contribute to evidence in that side of that?

Well, the other Matronae, there's lots of them. I can, I mean, Jen to pull up pictures, but there's plenty of statues. Generally, they have, there's two older women standing, usually have circular crests, they look kind of like a fro on their heads, and there'll be a younger woman. Well, this is, this is the one I'm talking about for Ostara. I'm just saying that the Matronae in general were also goddesses. And the advice, they're thought by scholars to be goddesses. Rotation of us is problematic. It ends in -a. You know, it's found a number of other Matronae. It was just part of the name. But in the case of, you know, Ostara, its associate either with the name of a tribe or with a local town or the place itself. So it doesn't necessarily be associated with a goddess. And this comes from Nomi Back. Is what's his thing called?

Named after goddesses?

The goddess and Celtic wrote a thing called Proto-Celtic Religion, called Mythology, A Comparative Study of Ancient Ireland, Britain, Gaul. He's basically arguing it, this is a problematic name in and of itself. It could be referring to my tribe. It could be referring to name call. And they would go back to the same Bede. If it was named after a goddess, it's possible. But we don't have any direct evidence of that other than outside of the least fragmented ideas, and people are making conjectures on. And that's kind of the same thing as what I've been stating. It's conjectures, the best.

So what kind of, what kind of source would you like that? Almost every source that I can think of when it relates to general history is generally conjecture. With when you look at historical sources, what kind, what would be the specific qualifications for a primary source? Would you like a specific person? Like we already have Bede specifically stating, and I know you've already said that his, what he says, it's problematic because of other features within his writing. And then I know you've talked about, um, you don't like the, or you don't since the old German High Lullaby is still controversial. And then I talked about the inscription of the goddess. And then I talked, and I can go.

Would you like, would you like evidence of syncretism between the in in Britain and in Ireland at that at the similar time between Christian and other pagan customs to help out the point of syncretism becoming more likely and having it more evidence in its favor? Because there is other syncretism, especially in Ireland, between Christianity and pagan religions.

Well, if it has Matronae in front of it, then that means it's a goddess because that's what Matronae means. It's the mother, mother goddess of the local area. But that's not what just said. You know, Matronae, Eostre, you'd be right on. But because it has an ending on the Ostara, it's probably referring to the name of a tribe or a town. And its well, it could have been what could have been referring to a goddess of the tribe. But that is an exclude, that doesn't exclude it from being mentioning a goddess. Because there were tribes that were named after goddesses. And if it still etymologically connects to the dwarf and Snorri's written things, then that means that it is very likely connecting to Ostara. And USA evidence in the favor.

What couldn't it suggest? It does. It could, and it does suggest. So you don't have an actual hard?

Well, in history, isn't speculative? Well, yeah, I mean, there is a lot. Yeah, but I mean, it's comparative to other goddesses, other gods that are named. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a whole lot more than just one from which we get such little for. And our best source, Bede, which is just filled with contradictions, filled with mentioning of his own interpretation. Didn't I mean, it can't. Yeah, you can argue that Bede does have a lot of issues in his text. But if it also syncs up with other texts, like the one from the Frankish scholar, actually found his name, well, I lost it again, sorry. But, um, from the Frankish scholar about the Germans still used this term today to refer to it. I would, I would also cite that, which is Eostre. Which is just like the Latin version of Eostre. Which is just a place name ending type thing. So I mean, if it's talking about a place, that's the problem with Jacob Grimm's ideas. He's inferring a god based on a place and not necessarily, you know, the actions. That's why it wasn't really a description about a goddess. That was this problem with his interpretation.

Well, interpreting as a place would just can just refer to the goddess's place. Wouldn't it? It doesn't exclude the goddess still. Just a possibility. And we need some more data to go on it, obviously.

Got it. Well, other data would you like?

Well, I mean, I, I'd like to see, you know, something more. I mean, that give you an example. They take Presidents' Day. All right. What do we celebrate Presidents' Day with every year? An annual mattress sale. That does not mean it goes back to some sort of Native American god. We have just sort of taken over to America. Not just because you can find like things like that in holidays or these sort of like inscriptions with these types of names or whatnot, that is not necessarily infer there was an actual god behind it. I mean, you think the same with like just random English names like Washington or Lincoln. That does not mean there was just because we had, you know, towns named after these. It goes back to an actual person, not an actual ancient god or whatnot. So that's the problem of the inscriptions. What I'm trying to say.

Mm-hmm. But in America, using your example, there are there are places that are named after Native American things and Native American tribes, like the Appalachian Mountains and such. So I could also point to that. So there, but necessarily gods. Virginia after people and doesn't help your case. Because I mean, if we have something named after a tribe, okay, then we say, say not a tribe. We don't say. But there's also a, you know, Native American spirit behind it that they worshiped, kind of thing. Yeah, you're right. The Appalachians don't have the, don't have that. But the inscription has Matronae before it, which does mean a goddess. That's the thing. But the whole inscription itself was talking about a town. Like how, like the the Matronae Stalin, what not. So it's not really conference. I don't, they don't think it said the Matronae town. But I also look into that. But, um, I look back at it again, because the Matronae town wouldn't make sense because Matronae was a title, was like a title, like you'd say tribal god, be a title. Wouldn't make sense to say tribal tribe. So saying Matronae town or something. I don't know. That isn't religion called a mythology comparison of ancient Ireland. All he's talking about the description and why we doubt it's really talking about Ostara. He goes in through the actual mystics of this really limited in description says this is just a town that the Romans had set up. It's not really, there's not an oblong bit of evidence there was actually that could goddess worship thing going. And also another thing I'd point to that does, um, link credence to the idea that they're basically to Easter deriving pagan roots, to be syncretism based off of other things we can cite. We have direct evidence for. All right, are you familiar with what's-his-name, Saint Columba? Are you familiar with Saint Columba?

Huh?

Okay. Well, basically, there's a, there's a long story about, I'm not gonna read the whole thing because it's long. There's a long story about him basically freeing a girl and healing people with a hag stone. Hag stones come from an old Celtic, old Celtic sort of healing item. You use them to heal ailments and things like that. And you want in a direct source that would go to it be plenty the elder, who talks about the druid egg, which is basically a direct link to the, um, hag stone, just a different term for it. That's that's one. Sam. There's also stories. I actually forgot to add those right now.

And see the giant obelisk there?

Huh? I mean, you gotta, you could go to, you know, the Vatican City and see the giant Egyptian obelisk.

Where I'm not talking about an obelisk. I'm talking about the hag stone using it. Yeah, but I'm not doubting that there were not syncretism going on. And I never could find syncretism in the Old Testament. Yes. But my point is, if there's syncretism going on in other things, and why wouldn't there be syncretism with Easter? With there's things to the gist. So, like I talked about the inscriptions, you said you, there's still some doubts. And of course, there's doubts. There's doubts about everything in history. But if there's single items is happening on in other places, then why wouldn't it also be that syncretism was happening between Easter when look so much like it did?

Well, the problem is really isn't a lot. I mean, the best we have is is Bede saying this was going on. And that's a very problematic basis concerning us contradictions. I mean, the most likely explanation is it was named after the month because that's what the Anglo-Saxons did. That's why they turned the festival, festival of Nativity, he's calling the festival Midwinter. They just called it based on the time of the year it was associated. That seems we haven't went Easter. It wasn't taken over. I mean, so basically, let me kind of get you where we're going. We've been talking about this whole goddess, this goddess even existed. That is not even established. There was a specific festival for her, let alone around the time of Easter that we actually celebrate her. Paschal. That we celebrate. Listen, if you want to grant, if the goddess existed, why would there be a month named after her if she wasn't celebrated in that month?

Well, she could have been. But I mean, we're talking about like, you know, it could have been weeks off. I mean, Easter is not even around, doesn't even fall in the same time every year. It's based on, you know, the lunar equinox, based on when they thought Passover happened and whatnot. But if there actually was, we don't even have any evidence for any sort of Ostara festival. We have, we have conjectures based on scraps that this goddess even existed, let alone the specific festivals happened. And so, like, you know, sometimes, you know, like, you got me. Yeah, the gods would have things named after them. For example, Thursday is named after Thor. That does not mean every Thursday we celebrate Thor. There's ancient pagans that every day of the week they were celebrating Thor. I mean, you gotta actually show that these festivals happened. And like, let me give you an example from Valentine's Day. I was researching that a couple months ago. I mean, people have posited all sorts of different festivals on February 14th. What should I have any evidence for? And they're like, "Well, I mean, if it's there, there's got to be some festival." The problem is, just there just wasn't any ancient Roman festival on February 14th. There was one on every 15th. It was about, you know, wolves and pastures and everything. But there is nothing on that date. So you need, if you're gonna claim there really was some sort of ancient pagan festival for Ostara around this time, we need some sort of evidence. And for that goddess herself, it's still, it's still like based on conjectures.

All right, um, let's see. Because basically, what I'm saying is, if there was a festival for her, there's another good example. Juno. She was the god, you know, the month June is named after her. For her, in June, there were also festivals for her in February and other times of the year. So there were, you know, there were festivals out of her month, or festivals in her month, or festivals for some gods in their month, as some out of the month. There were festivals for, there were some gods that even had festivals. I keep it. I mean, so there's all these, you know, random things that we're going. Just because there's a goddess, if she's even in existence, we need some sort of evidence as if she even had a festival. We can't just posit that there was a suspect.

Well, it's not just being posited. It was, it's still being posited based on what Bede said. But like you said, you don't trust Bede. So that's the other thing. That's what the biggest part of it. And certain, here's not something. I mean, like, I wouldn't get, like my theology from, like a Muslim. Right? I wouldn't, I don't know if I really would trust Bede. I mean, he seems to be making up something called Mother's Night, which is, say again, Tilly says, "an imaginary cult" around the Mother's Night, which just seems to be about the Virgin Mary.

Well, I don't get my theology from because I'm not Anglo-Saxon. But like, you know, like a Muslim scholar. I mean, yeah, I'm not, not personally getting my theology from Bede. I wouldn't say that. But, um, I'm still pointing to that there is a good thing. And I still think that even if I'm willing to grant there's contradictions in his and his writings, but it still collaborates with the, um, with the written by the Frankish scholar. I don't pronounce his name. Ernhardt. E-R-N-H-A-R-D-T. If you know about him?

Well, but if it collaborates with it, I still think there's reasonable. It's reasonable to assume to assume that Easter would come on that day if since it is Crabtree. You can still see this today in the German name for, um, April. I still hold to that. That I think that.

What does he specifically say that I'm confused? Ernhardt names the or says that the Frankish says the Frankish month of April is named or his name Eostre month. Yeah. Great. Yeah. And if that collaborates, then it's very likely that, um, there it's very likely that it's sort of a, which is etymologically connected with Ostara, both meaning east and shining, would have been a goddess and would have been a celebrated on that day based off of that. Huh?

So that's the conjecture. It's like claiming, you know, we need to actually see that. I mean, I know in doubt, Bede got the name of the month right, just like eating it, the previous name in the month right. What we doubt is where he got the alleged name from. So when Tilly is calling him out for like the alleged month of Solmonath, or the alleged month of, um, what's the one in between Solmonath and Eostre month? Wow. But he says that one's named after the goddess Reod. And Julian Hutton say, "Well, there's no evidence that this goddess existed. This is probably more of Bede just inventing things or just explaining what he thinks these months came from." That's the issue. So, I mean, he says Solmonath, it's based off the whole idea, month of cakes. I mean, the problem is, is that doesn't really seem to add up with what Solmonath even meant. Okay. I mean, I didn't stay Solmonath, but as interesting, but there's Solmonath of anything corroborating with it that you'd also put in to put it under scrutiny? Does it have any other sources corroborating it with it, like the name for the month that is given by, oh, sorry, Solmonath from the Frankish scholar?

No, but I agree with the Frankish scholar. I agree that we've got the name of the month right. I, I'm doubting where he says this name came from. Okay. But and then when I pointed the inscription, you also doubt that because it's fragmented. I know. And it mentions a town and the Matronae, which were known to be goddesses.

Well, I mean, just because there's a Matronae in it, and he would have to be saying this goddess. But the whole thing is just the name of the town. So it's, I mean, if you think of like things like, you know, Phoenix. I mean, it'd be absurd to say that this was dedicated to the Phoenix, the great bird mentioned in early Christian and early pagan writings. I mean, we get that name from it, but we didn't name it after a goddess. We didn't name it after an actual like mystical thing. We're celebrating that mystical figure. We just kind of like, "Oh, that's a cool name. We're just gonna do the top. We're gonna associate with it being hot." I mean, so just because there's a sort of etymological connection there, that did not mean that it was actually named that. Matrona Eostre Hennis was actually named after a goddess, like Phoenix wasn't actually named after this mystical creature. Like dedicated no shrines to Phoenix in the actual site of Matronae. Is that that's when the inscription says. But is also it was a shrine. If you look at it.

Well, I mean, does it have to say that to imply it's a shrine? Because the other Matronae were shrines. Does it have to specifically say it? We still have the, we still have the word Matronae in it. Goddess here. This could just be an inscription. I mean, of just, you know, town or people in the town. We find inscriptions all over the ancient world, isn't it? So, I mean, their gods or goddesses. Sometimes you just know people or, I'm like, you know, town centers or whatnot. I mean, so they get, it's so fragmented. So based on conjecture, it's clearly mentioning some sort of town name. I mean, they say, "What are we, what are we going on here?"

Okay. And JMD, also, if you stalled them in the chat, he wanted us to go and do questions. Artie, I was asking if we're going to get into the Q&A because you guys were talking about about 45 minutes to discussion and Q&A. Sorry, I must have ran bald. Yeah, I think so. I still think I still think it's in favor. But I can see you, I can see why you wouldn't. But I still do think it contributes in favor.

Using on, I would like to see that. I don't think I've sold out. When I was going through the stuff, but the dwarf here as well. It's all they say. This is all really just associations and conjectures. That's basically it. So we can go into the question and answer component. I'm going to send these over to JMD and then we will, as mentioned, alternate between. So for that, I'll just start out reading. We had one story shot came in. Thanks so much for that super chat. Cheap work. They asked, "IP, is Easter a stumbling block to pagan converts?"

No, I don't know why it would be. I mean, I know I don't. I think it's more of a stumbling block for fundamentalists. They were terrified of anything that they think the devil touched. Oh, no, it's Easter. Therefore, we have to hide from it. And those eggs and bunnies associated with it. Uh, I don't, I don't really know if it's a stumbling block for converts because the focus of Easter is on Christ's resurrection.

You bet. Thanks so much. And JMD, I'll let you get rolling with the standard questions from the list. Site just that hopefully you got it.

Yep, I did. So at Nick J, at moderndaydebate, question for both. What are your thoughts on Eastern Orthodox celebration of Pascha? As in, what are both of your thoughts as to how and why Eastern Orthodox celebrate Easter on different days? So why whoever wants to go first? You know, personally, I don't care that much about it. I mean, Nate Bates just disagreeing with guarding dates and whatnot, which is.

Which is fine. I mean, it's more about what we're celebrating in the actual date. I, I've gone to some Eastern Orthodox Easter celebrations, or I guess Paschal celebrations, and I enjoyed them. I don't know what else to say about it. Is the question just specifically about the dating of it? Oh, it's just thoughts on the celebration of caution and, yeah, different days on how each turnoff celebrates it on different days. I know that in like Lithuania and Ukraine, they do a thing where is it, it's called, one second, it comes from the same word as Salter because it means to write. They do a thing where they put wax on the eggs and apparently there's evidence of this going pre-Christian, but I didn't go down that rabbit hole, really. It's called sungki, sungki, if I'm probably pronouncing it terribly wrong, but that's just how it's, how I'm English-sizing it. But, um, they do it where they overlay it with wax and basically draw on the eggs, sort of like Easter eggs. And apparently, from what I've read from fragments being found as the shells and substance is preserved by wax, it dates back to pre-Christian times in Ukraine. That's all I know. Thanks so much.

And then we just had a super chat. I mean, to, by the way, I forgot to mention, super chats, we just put them automatically at the top of the list, and you can make a comment toward one of the debaters during the question and answer as well. Ava Ava dia Nirvana said, "$5.00 is just because IP is awesome. Really nice to you. Thanks so much." And back to jmd, where we are alternating between questions, or was that, or would that time to be your turn there? I can actually read the next one, especially because it's Stickman Sam. When am I, didn't, wait, did you, did you already read Stickman Sam's? No, I read Nick Jig. Perfect. Okay, I thought so. Stickman Sam, I'm gonna see ya. And he asks, "Question for King, King ghetto, would you say that the Jewish holiday of Passover has pagan origins?"

- I have four people make the argument. I wouldn't say so. I pretty sure descends directly from the story of the Exodus. I've celebrated Passover before. I don't, I wouldn't say it does. But I mean, some people can make that argument. Hurt me, you want to check out this book? He actually argues that dating and some of the agricultural things with Passover were like, collect right, like prevent Israelites from celebrating competing festivals in a city called Emmer. So Emmer had a lot of the same types of festivals, similar traditions around the same year with their festivals. And so this was Moses's way of saying, you know, like, well, to prevent the Israelites from engaging these pagan festivals, let's just line all our festivals up on these days as well. That way, they'll prevent it from twining, you're taking these pagan festivals. So there could be some sort of, not so much pagan influence, is sort of like this sort of like picking pressure, peer pressure, kind of a more like, you know, competition kind of thing. I know I do not have an assay for that, so I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know.

Phoenix Rising asks a question for IP. "Why does Jesus die on a different day each year?"

- Uh, well, because to the early Christians, the actual day was not so much important. They really wanted to keep it around the whole wage present in the Gospels is that Jesus's Last Supper as the Passover meal, Thursday, then he dies on a Friday, and then he resurrects on a Sunday. And so what they basically did, Hutton basically notes that what they basically did is they were looking at when the Passover fell, what they, when they thought the Passover, about the Jews kind of disagree with them. Well, they thought this is when the Passover was supposed to fall, and they're just going to keep the custom going around the alleged Passover. And so it happened to fall on a sudden, the first full moon following the spring equinox. So that's kind of how they would have it, kind of follow because they were trying to follow the original setup Jesus had, where he was Passover meal, guys on Friday, two-day preparation, in the grave on Sabbath, and resurrects on the first day of the week. It's very important for them for Jesus to resurrect on Sunday because there's connections in the Book of Revelations where he says Omni Health from the Omega, that's one in eight. He's the beginning, which means he's the beginning in the new beginning. So he's got to rise on the first day of the week. So they wanted to always celebrate the resurrection on the first day of the week.

Gotcha. Just had a suture chap come in. Carmel Krunk, thanks so much for your super chat. They said, "Inspiring philosophy, can you inform people of your primary sources and scholars?"

- Yeah, absolutely. What, what I use for lights within traditions like Easter eggs, one out is a good book called, it's a dictionary of English folklore. This is a pretty good book. The Easter book by Francis Weiser, although he again, some conjectures in there, some things he just kind of gives without sources, so a little upset when I got that book. Ronald Hutton, smoked the Stations of the Suns, is great. It's a really good book. There's a book by Alexander Tilley called Yule and Christmas, and then beat, of course, reckoning of time going back pretty early. Those are the primary ones I'm using. I also have a, not sure if I remember exactly how to pronounce this, but it's a Latin book from like the 1600s, the talks visit about the origin of Easter eggs. Um, it's like, it's like George Franck, George Franck von Franken, and basically he just kind of, uh, it's a, uh, it's like, I don't even know how to turn it on. So it's, it's basically a book on medical traditions and whatnot at the time for about 1682 or so.

Gotcha. Thanks so much. And then another super check just gave me and Stefan Steen, thanks so much for, if I remember, I did Stephen Steen wrong, sorry about that. He says, "Can't wait to hear why traditions adopted hundreds of years later retroactively prove Jesus's resurrection accounts a copy." And then, and then, or I think he means a copy, like a copycat, and then in parentheses puts, "hard eye roll."

- So there's a story of dying ice, he's turning water into wine. Well, that story didn't, wasn't written down until hundreds of years after Jesus existed. Everyone tries to claim that, you know, Christianity or Judaism Barton's already astron isn't, but we don't any documents from them. So after Jesus existed, so it's like, oh, they retroactively, you're copy. I don't think, oh gosh, yeah, you bet. And now I'll kick it back to GMD if you're ready. And jmd, I'm going to send another batch of like four or five questions that have come in since I sent the first batch. Okay.

Uh, for San ghetto, "Will you debate me?" Oh, this is from Epic Christ. "Will you debate me regarding the Shroud of Turin?"

- That's vague. Depends on the date, but I mean, what about the Shroud of Turin? I don't know much about, like, I do, he's me more specific. Like, do I believe it exists? Sure. What about it? That's fake? I mean, it depends on the date and all. I'll look into it. You got my wanted DM me. Well, I have a short video on my channel actually from David, when I asked him his thoughts on it, he's like, 65 to 35, 30, 65% he thinks it's authentic, and in 35% maybe not. So that's on there if he won't check that out. But, uh, okay.

Another question for IP from the same person. "Are there dying rising gods?"

- That seems like another main question. Depends on what we mean. Another word, dying and rising gods, like Tammuz, are associated with crops. These are not resurrected deities like you see with Christ. I mean, Christ is really dealing resurrected deity. So I mean, dying and rising is such a big term in English, but if you go back to the ancient languages, resurrection, that's something very specifically. So what we do in our aliens, we go dying rising, well, they're all the same thing. But to them, those we're all very different, distinct categories. So there aren't dying and rising gods. You could look at possibly like him, like there's anyone that says were the vegetation crops. I've had Dantas for Tammuz. There were gods that died and then were immortalized like Asclepius, or like some Oxus, if Zalmoixis even died, that's also speculative. I mean, but there any deities like Jesus? No. There are no pre-dying and rising gods that the Christians would have read about. The idea of a resurrection, a resurrected Messiah, was absolutely unheard of to the Jews at the time.

Gotcha. And super chat just came in. Carmel Krunk, thanks so much for your super Janet. Asked for inspiring philosophy again. They asked, "Can you advise people how long you have been studying holidays and pagan origins?"

- Oh, about three or four years. I used to think like everybody else, yeah, of course, they've taken organs. Everyone knows that. And I was getting annoyed by fundamentalist Christians. It says, well, that means we can't worship Him because God gets really offended when you put a present under a tree or you hide an Easter egg for a child because, oh man, Jesus is so insecure and mad about that. And sounds like this is BS. I'm gonna make some videos showing why that doesn't matter. And then I started looking for paid or do some Christmas and I'm like, well, nothing really here. And then I think, well, let me check Easter. And it was, I mean, Easter might be the one who got. But I mean, it is, I was kind of thinking, I eat some very speculative. It's based on a lot of no jumps, very limited data. And so then I was like, well, let me also check Halloween and Valentine's Day. And again, same thing, nothing there. So I mean, I just started looking at the original sources, trying to find as much as I can and go from there. So maybe about two or three years or so, maybe, maybe four. It's been a while. Yeah, you want an off research, so I can't really put it exact amount of time on.

You bet. Okay. Question for both. "What is the grammatical nature of the word any question?" So what makes IPE think it refers to a town?

- So town for context here. So it's the ending. So like if you know like I so it ends in this like a chi ni s, which is probably the Germanic form of I um, which is, you know, court of like, you know, podium or Colosseum. It's more about a place kind of thing. So kind of ends like that. And so then the conjecture is, well, maybe it was placed off a god. It's what I mean, again, we need to actually show that they named it for this, this goddess or whatnot, because just because we have a name of something, like, I mean, I remember passing through like random towns that had like really weird names, and you, your brain immediately wants to go, well, that must be named for something. And it could be, but it could be something for simple, just like the name of a people, the name of a tribe. And then they can make a conjecture that that's a goddess there. It's possible. I don't doubt that it's possible. But it's actually positive God has been so many scholars of colors in the question. It, I would need to see some more evidence. And there's just unfortunately, it's not available.

Well, the etymological part of it that would say that it's named after the goddess would be the may chase apart, which is which you've seen in multiple of descriptions, inscriptions. You can look them up, look up may trees online, you can see tons of altars and stuff to them. That's why I call it a goddess because that's what may trees means. It's referring to a local tribal goddess.

- Yeah, it could be, but it could also just be the name of a town. It could be both. Those are, don't exclude each other either.

Oh, yeah, I agree. It probably, it definitely is a town name. There's no doubt about that. Well, if it says may trees and it's named after goddess, well, I mean, matrices use it a lot of different things. I mean, you know, what doubts that the question of course is, was, what is the actual goddess behind it? Because doesn't it, he also has an image of a woman on there? Yeah, really contributes to it. But I mean, again, we actually have the name of the goddess with it. We don't say yes, name is apparently is, is if it's a, if it's a town name, it's the same as founding a town name for, like, think of like the movie like City of God or whatnot. I mean, just because it's, it's called that does not actually anything for a specific daughter.

Well, is it really fair to compared to modern-day things though? Because people in the modern day don't think like they did back then.

- Well, I'm just making a cordoning. I just don't think it's a fair analogy. At least my opinion.

Well, I mean, you could be right. But I mean, the problem is, we need to know if that actual town name is named after for specific goddess, or they're just associating it with the goddess in general. But we'll be the prince between naming after the goddess and associating with the goddess in general here. And so it says may trees, what else would that mean? Is a mother in reference to goddess mother? And in Gallic, which are nourish melted romantic. But since may trees is a Gallic, we're mother and Gallic will be ma. So it's not, it's not addressing an actual goddess. It's like to the mud, the mother town type things. I think so. To another goddess, the town things like, to the mother, it's basically what he said is saying to the mother of the town name.

Okay, so that's the problem. Stretching it, like stretching it to say just as mother is stretching it because may trees references goddesses. We actually, I mean, it's saying to the goddess of the talismans. Okay, yes. I wouldn't, I wouldn't exclude the possible. That wouldn't exclude it being a Taba logically related. It was star tour yesterday, so hasn't that's kind of a moot point. We should go on to the next question. We did have a super chat. Just came in. Cheap work. Thanks so much for your super sad. They said, "It would Jesus celebrate holidays the way that we do?"

- I mean, he gave wine at a wedding to drunk people. I don't see why you wouldn't like this. You know, play games. Anyone. What, what, what are people's view of Jesus that he's just like this uptight guy that doesn't ever want to do anything? Like, because he's a Puritan? I don't know. Yeah, it's like, you know, why would I mean, why would he care if children run around finding Easter eggs, putting presents under a tree? Um, I'm not gonna say yes or no, but I mean, it's kind of like a little absurd to say that he would not that he would be so uptight enough but have, you know, engaging like just cultural customs.

You bet. So next question is from one way. Have you considered a question for both? "Have you considered the Old Testament polemical angle here where rejection in the read action expressed disagreement?"

- I would not know what he means. What he's questioned? Maybe it's one of those questions where you have a perfect in your head, but people who understand it, we could come back to that. We did have a super chat from Carmel to crunk. Thanks so much for your super chat again for inspiring philosophy. They asked, "How familiar, how familiar are you with ancient Near Eastern culture?"

- A fair amount. I have more books you need to read. I'm even gonna read Mark Smith soon. I need to finish reading his book, Origins of Monotheism. I'm gonna read Can Turn into Jitna Bots soon. Another book I have, anything by Mark Shadowless, I think is his name. So I'm researching a lot more right now, but I have a good fair amount, I would hope so.

You got it. Thanks so much. And then thanks so much, C. Jeffrey Dose Arabiya, for your super chat. Just came in. He said, "If Christians who celebrate Easter also celebrate Christmas, why is Jesus involved? If Christmas can't figure the correct Passover days or Jesus's birthday?"

- I mean, Christmas was just kind of set up because they thought Jesus was born on that day, but it's just a day of remember in the Incarnation. It doesn't have to get the exact day right. No one really knows when Jesus was born. It was Sukkot, what it was, from what I've remember reading. It was Sukkot because, you know, how he was in the womb for a certain time and then met John the Baptist in the womb, etc., etcetera. It's just dating from that Sukkot. It would be the Jewish festival that it fell on around that time. Yeah, which is in the fall, from what I know. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember reading. Seifer heard of that.

You bet. And then GMT, are we on Jade BIA Feld's question next?

- Yeah. So, "What hard proof does Jones have of Easter being the time of the death of her Jesus?"

- I don't, I think there was a study a couple years ago on the earthquake that apparently happened around April around 33 AD. So I mean, that would be good evidence. It's the earthquake study. Whenever in my reliability of the New Testament series, but I mean, it was just around Passover, that's what the, the New Testament basically argue. So Passover was celebrated around this, so that's what would be around this time as well.

You bet. We did a super set just come in. Cheap work. Thanks for your super chat. Who asked, "Can I revise Satanic rituals for Christ?"

- No, no, that you're doing rituals for Satan, but there are no satanic or pagan rituals and Easter. So I don't see what that would have to do with anything. I mean, you can't like merge into Christianity like worship or Buddha or rituals for Buddha. But I mean, you could find possible similarities, like maybe we both kneel down when we pray. So what I mean, you actually show that there's actual pagan rituals or satanic rituals, as you call them, involved in any Easter, Christmas celebration.

You got it. So the next question is from Via the Heathen. And question for IP. "Is there much of history that isn't based on conjecture, especially as far as ancient history goes?"

- Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you look at Egyptian history, lose a lot. We have with regard to Iraq lifx documents that we've gotten from people that we know are very reliable people, at Tacitus, or Plenty the Elder, or Josephus is actually quite more. I won't good. So there is some conjecture. For example, we don't know how like Emperor Charlemagne died or killed it. We don't know how a pro Cermak brother guy could have been murdered, could in natural causes. So historians do make conjectures based on what they think. The same as King taught, that you make conjectures on that. So there is conjecture involved in history, no doubt. But we need to recognize for what it is. Now, again, I'm not doubting there could not have been a goddess there. Very well could have been. I'm just saying that's speculative at best, and we need to recognize for what it is. You can think, well, that's enough to convince me, fine. But I'm just gonna say, good, again, could have doesn't really matter for what idea, what I'm looking at. But then again, if that God has evened it exists, and is my biggest park is about Easter, that doesn't get us any evidence whatsoever then early Anglo-Saxons had some sort of festival for her around Pasco, and they decided to just merge the two, merged sorts of things. That's how German lullaby would, what's that? The High German lullaby would get you there though, pretty well. What will do that? Huh? What's that?

Then time to go over it. You never heard of the High German lullaby? Thought you said you didn't know about it when I brought it up earlier. It's, um, we have time, that's fine. I just wondered.

- Okay. Got a another question for IP. I think the rest are okay. There's one more person, some ghetto left, but if you need the word shrine on a shrine, then how is the Church of the Holy I'm wrong, this Sepulchre, suppose her Sepulchre? Yeah, I bet I'm horrible with grammar and stuff. A shrine?

- Well, they basically may have misspoken. Guru, I was saying is, we need a little bit more evidence that it actually was a shrine because some scholars doubt that the d1 necessarily was a shrine that was there. So all's I was trying to say was, it doesn't actually, it's not actually been proven that it was a shrine. It could have been, but it could not have been. It's so fragment was so little about it, we don't really know at the incident. My mother has to say shrine on it. I'm just trying to sleep argue that it may not even be one. Is what the scholarly debate is about right now. It's most likelihood a shrine because of the other one we have all over gul, the other may trees. But yeah.

Got a quick super chat that just came in. They asked, "Who's Jesus of Nazareth versus Jesus of Bethlehem versus Jesus of Tammuz?" Can those amused? You mean Tartarus? I'm not sure. Maybe they, well, technically they said, "Who's Jesus of Nazareth versus of Bethlehem versus Tammuz?" Maybe that makes more sense of it.

- I mean, there really isn't Jesus of Tammuz. There's just one Jesus. There's no connections to Tammuz. Not sure they mean.

Gotcha. And then we just had another super chat. She work said, "God bless you, IP. I got respect for you. See you soon, zoom." And so I think that was the same gentleman that was asking you some tough questions before.

- Well, you know, another question from a bit Christ. Question time P. "Why do you think the Shroud of Turin is fake? Something we know then."

- A question for a son ghetto. "What, what do Pig and gods do?" Very big question from Kenya cracking. Which one? Like, there's lots there. You, which one? There's plenty there. Is, um, who knows? There is, oh my, oh, there's lots of them to do a lot of things that, I mean, depends on the one you're asking. You may wouldn't like ask about a specific one and then ask me, and I can tell you if I know about God. Yeah, tell me which one. It's.

You bet. Unless you want to take all the time to describe what each God, you know, not going over every single one of them would be here all day.

- Gosh, yeah. So, oh, was there another super Chad? James, I don't think so. I think we're, oh, that was the one that he had said, "God bless IP." So we're, I think we can probably close up with this question because we originally talked about maybe, uh, 45 minutes of discussion and then we'd be like, 25 minutes of Q&A. So is it, you stopping point there? Is one more question?

- Okay, go ahead. It's from Praise. "I am now, yeah, my question to IP is, the Trinity a pagan concept? If so, does this affect the way we look at the Trinity whatsoever?"

- Which Trinity? Depends on which one you're talking about. I don't, the traditional Christian one wouldn't. But there are some forms of it that coincide with things like different guises. But that's a whole another topic, which is fun. That's, that's debatable. But I'll check them out. Yeah.

That was the last question. Yeah. So just roll on, subscribe. Thanks for joining us. Rwanda to have you here. No matter what side you're on, Christian, pagan, atheist, we're happy to have people from all walks of life. And so thanks for being here. And with that, we can jump over. Yeah, given that we usually would start with the affirmative, if King get oh, if you'd like to wrap up, otherwise, it's really up to the debaters. If you guys decide you want to do it a different order, if you want to have the last word, I can go and I, your choice. I'm not picky. I'll let you have the last word. I enjoyed it too. Thank you for discussing.

- Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we'll disagree a degree. I mean, yeah, I'm open to the idea there was a goddess in Mostar up, just like I'm open to the idea of King Tut could have been murdered. But I mean, the same, I'm not gonna, I like to talk about those things. But I mean, I'm just, it's all speculation at this point. In terms of it being connected to Easter, we still need, we don't gonna have any evidence for festivals for this goddess, if she existed. I mean, the best you have, maybe is it, you know, I mean, I mean, a lot, all this speculation for hers is based on, I mean, the old German lullaby is gonna argue to be a forgery by even the eighteen high respect people like John Kelly. The inscription that they're calling the question because it's just mentioning the Motown beat has been calling the question. And so when we have all these issues, our alleged sources, it really starts to make me go, okay, well, maybe, maybe not. And then, but from there, I'm gonna jump to the idea that she has specific festival around like the equinox. I mean, we don't really have any evidence. What's not jumping? Okay, sorry, I'll be quiet. You can respond. Your dad.

Okay. I mean, if so, where was I? Lost my train of thought. So basically, if this guy's even existed, there's still, it's, it's the best it's correlation, not causation. We have any connection to any sorts of festivals that the Anglo-Saxons could have merged with Pascal? We have no causation records or causation evidence of any sorts of types of things because early Anglo-Saxons, when they celebrated Paska, or with it as they called it, Easter, it was very Christian. I mean, the games that we associate without did not come until the thousand eight hundred years later or so. I think Easter egg chef about 1290, and Easter hair shows up in the 1600s, maybe fifteen hundreds. So that's why I would say, I wouldn't say that Easter doesn't have pagan origins. I just say that there's not a lot of good sufficient evidence to make that kind of play in my opinion. You cannot, from what I know, you can take, you can nitpick at each of the individual evidences, but I believe that they each add up into making a proper case for it. Easter pretty much having a being pagan synchronism with Christian us original Christians or the other Christian celebrate celebration. I do think a lot of these sources that other people who call in a question, but there are scholars who do believe these are legitimate sources, like the lullaby or the old high German lullaby, like the inscriptions of may trees goddess, and all the other things. They do these together to make a pretty cohesive case for, um, for those for a surah and a celebration. I think if bead was correct about Easter day and all that kind of stuff, he's likely correct about them celebrating it in the first place, like he states did in, in his reckoning of time. But I just, if you can look at all these things and piece together, you can nitpick them, of course, but you couldn't pick about anything in history and put it down to conjecture, conjecture.

You bet. With that, we want to say thanks so much, everybody, for being here. The speaker is, this has been a really awesome talk, not only interesting, but we appreciate that you guys are so civil. Like, you clearly disagree, but nonetheless, true tolerance is disagreeing, being willing to say the other person is wrong and I'm right, but you know what, we care about each other, we respect each other, at least be kind to each other. So I thought this is excellent. And want to say thanks so much to jmd for helping out. As mentioned, everybody's links are in the description. So, hey, convenient, right down there, check them out. And I want to say again, thanks to everybody for your questions, just for hanging out with us today. We're pleased to have you with us. And so with that, we hope you have a great rest of your Sunday. And then next Sunday, we hope you have a great Easter. So take care. I keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Love, I wrote.