"Manipulators DON'T Want You to Know This" 5 Ways to TEST if He's Playing You or Genuine-Mark Manson

A dishonest guy is just trying to sleep with you as soon as he can. He doesn't really care what the woman thinks. He's just trying to get something from you.

>> Tell me more.

>> So, you can fall in love with somebody who's not good for you. A lot of people might not like hearing that, but it's true. Behind every [ __ ] is an broke his heart, and behind every [ __ ] is an broke her heart. Men get trapped by sex. Women get trapped by love.

>> You said that the problem with toxic dating advice for men is it actually works on women. And because you're the guy who sold over 20 million copies of the subtle art on our given an F and you've taught millions of men on healthy honest dating, you're literally the perfect person to help us decode the difference between horrendous manipulation and genuine beautiful interest. So today we're going to play a game called is he into you or is he just playing you? I'm going to give you some real pickup artistry advice and I want you to help teach us women how to spot the difference. You ready? All right, let's go.

Okay, >> so I've got number one with the pickup artistry advice, which is probably one of the worst, which is neg. Explain that to me. Why does it work?

>> So, the neg is a it's a classic tactic from the pickup artist world. Um, the the idea it's it's basically a backhanded compliment. So, it's like diminishing the woman, but in kind of a an ambiguous way. Like, it's not just outright insulting you. It's like saying something like like, "Oh, your shoes are really interesting. Did you get them at Kmart?"

Mhm. >> It's it seems innocent on the surface, but like really he's just trying to make you feel bad and insecure about yourself. And um the psychology behind it is that if he can poke at your insecurities, the natural human reaction anytime somebody makes us feel insecure is that we want to prove ourselves to them. We want to be validated by them. And so it's to create a dynamic with the woman where you're seeking his approval. And once he has you in that dynamic, it's much easier to hook up with you.

>> All right, thank you for that breakdown. So, now I have a question. How do you know if he's being honest and just being truthful? Like, actually, I don't like that skirt.

>> Mhm.

>> Versus someone who's actually deliberately trying to chip away your selfworth.

>> The short answer is is that he's being honest if he's not looking for a reaction. Right. So, if I tell you I don't like something and I am not sitting here waiting for you to try to like explain to me or convince me that it's actually a good thing, that I should like it, it means I'm probably being honest. If he's manipulating you, then he's probably going to sit there and be like, "Okay, now convince me, you know, win me back." Right? A lot of these manipulative tactics, they introduce a power dynamic >> between two people and you start to feel like you're in some sort of competition with him, but it just creates a very unhealthy dynamic and and you you really can't build any sort of sustainable or healthy relationship on top of it. By the time I met my wife, I I guess I I had become such a uh a zealot for honesty in my relationships that we'd be going out, you know, for a date night and she'd be getting ready for like an hour and she'd come out in her outfit and she'd say, "How do I look?" And in that situation, which is a situation that 99.9% of men will lie and say, "No matter what, you look amazing. Oh my god." Um I would be honest and I would say like, "Yeah, I don't like your outfit." And you know, the first five or 10 times this happened, she got very upset. She was like, "You are such an [ __ ] you know, and she'd storm back into the bathroom and like take her top off and like start putting other things on." And but it's funny because after a while, what happened is that she realized that when now when I compliment her, when I say, "Wow, you look beautiful tonight." She knows I'm being honest. I'm not just being a nice guy. I'm not just like saying that cuz what that's what that's what your boyfriend's supposed to say.

>> I love that story so much. There's the honesty because I care about you so much that I want to be transparent with you and if you don't look good, I'm going to tell you that so that you can trust me. And then there's a neg her part that's like I'm going to say something just to get a trigger out of that just to get her more interested in me. It's like you can do an action that can appear to be somewhat similar but yet it's completely different in its interpretation.

>> Yes, absolutely. I can compliment somebody uh and be very a very mean person. It can be very malicious in the way that I'm complimenting them. I can also compliment somebody just out of the goodness of my heart because I really believe you know. So it is >> ultimately don't just look at the words, look at the intention behind the words. what is motivating what they're saying and are they saying it to get a response? If is it conditional on some response out of you? If it is, then like that's a red flag.

>> Ideally, honest people and healthy relationships, people communicate unconditionally. They say things without expecting anything in return.

>> Oh, that's so true. All right, we're going to move on to the next one. So, don't show her too much interest. Now, the thing with this, I've got a question. Is he taking it slow or is he playing emotional games with you? How do you know the difference?

>> Ask him.

>> Oh,

>> what what would you say?

>> So, the the funny thing about the pickup artist world, >> uh, none none of those guys are trying to take it slow. They they may feain disinterest. They may pretend like they're not into you. They may play games with you, like not ghost you a couple times to like get you to try to earn them back or whatever. But ultimately, a dishonest guy is he's basically just trying to sleep with you as soon as he can. And um and if he's waiting, it's because he thinks he needs to wait. It's not because he wants to, right? So, I would say ask him and if you don't get a straight answer and like a logical explanation that's mature and well thought out and seems vulnerable, um you know, then I wouldn't trust it. I wrote this article back in 2013 and it went super super viral particularly among women. Um it was called [ __ ] yes or no. And it's for situations like this where it's like if you're in a situation if if it's not a clear [ __ ] yes signal from him and it's not a clear [ __ ] yes signal from yourself then it should be a no. So if you ask a guy something like that like hey you know are you interested in this? How are you feeling about this? Are you trying to take it slow or you know what's going on here? and he just gives you the runaround and makes up all these kind of [ __ ] excuses and, you know, has all these like vague answers going on. That's not a [ __ ] yes. So, it's a no.

>> All right. [ __ ] yes or [ __ ] no. I love it. Nice and clear. Um, okay. So, we've got the next one, which is a pickup tactic, which is creating jealousy. So, how do you know if a guy's trying to deliberately trigger your jealousy in order so that you keep chasing versus >> he actually didn't do anything wrong? He just triggered some insecurity in me. And it isn't that he's trying to manipulate me that I'm actually insecure.

>> Yeah. A lot of people get jealous in very irrational situations. They read things into situations that aren't there. They imagine behavior that maybe isn't happening. Um, so I with this one, I would actually start with yourself. say like what what am I really jealous about? And also this answer is completely different depending on like is this a guy you met five minutes ago or have you been dating him for five years? Because those are like two completely different scenarios. If you're getting jealous of a of of a man who you've been with for 5 years and he's like doing all these behaviors that are triggering you.

>> Yeah, that's a huge problem. Like by this point you should have had a number of conversations with him and set various boundaries within the relationship. So, that is a sign that there's an issue within the relationship.

>> If this is a guy you met five minutes ago and now he's like talking to some other girl on the other side of the bar and you're like getting all pissed off cuz like, hey, who does he think he? It's like, well, maybe that's you. Maybe maybe you should take a look at yourself and realize that like this guy that you met five you've known for all five minutes uh uh seems to have a lot of sway on your uh your how you feel in the moment.

>> I love that. Um, okay, I want to move to the next one. the always be in control. So, this again is as a woman, I'm just going to be honest, I love my husband being in control. Um, especially even when we first started dating, he was chivalous. He would take the lead. He would pay the bills. He would hold the door open. Like, I freaking love that.

>> And so, where is that fine line between someone being very chivalous and attentive and just wanting to take the lead versus someone that's like, I want to control this situation so I can manipulate her any way that I want.

>> Yeah. I would say it comes down to how well do they hear no, right? So, I would say if if a man is assertive and confident but also respects you. If you say no, I don't like that or no, I don't want to do that, he'll listen to you and adapt and he'll be totally fine with it. A man who's trying to control you and from an unhealthy place, a very toxic place, he he's not going to handle it well. it. He'll argue with you, he'll fight with you, he'll gaslight you, he'll try to tell you that you're crazy, you're stupid, like you don't understand. So, it really just comes down to uh how well does he does he hear now?

>> From the outside when you say it like that, it's like how do people get trapped? Like, why would they ever be in a relationship like that? But because I've been there before my husband, I was like it happened slow

>> and you don't even know how that happened. Like it's just heartbreaking.

>> It's also I mean a lot of the it's easy to say here, but like you know there are a lot of situations that are very ambiguous, right? like my wife and I I I I feel like we have a very healthy dynamic, but obviously like we get into big arguments about things and um we will, you know, she'll tell me she doesn't want to do something and I'll get really upset and sad about it and argue with her, you know. So, it is it is hard to know when it bleeds over into an unhealthy dynamic, but I think at the end of the day, I respect her and I respect what she wants and and I try to, you know, we make compromises for each other. And I think that's ultimately what you look for is like, are you with somebody who is willing to make a compromise for you and is willing to take your needs and wants into account >> and value them as much as as their own. All right, we'll be right back with Mark. But real quick, if you're done playing small, if you're done being pushed around and you're ready to build unshakable confidence in every single area of your life, then smash the subscribe button down there because every episode of Women of Impact is here to help you build your confidence, own your worth, set strong boundaries, and make sure that you never lose your voice or your power again. So, go ahead, smash that subscribe button. Now, back to the episode. The ambiguous word really hit me actually because I think that that's so true and that's how you end up getting trapped because it's never black and white. If it was then we'd, you know, all be safe and we'd be fine. And with the pickup artistry advice, as I was going through it, >> I was horrified, but also I was like, "Oh, I can actually see why it works." Because it is sadly aimed at women who are already vulnerable, women who are already insecure. And so basically now it just taps into all of those things for women and that becomes the trap. And it's the ambiguousness that is hard because that's why I really want to go through this list because I don't know sometimes is it controlling or is it someone just taking the lead and is sometimes it's that really freaking fine line.

>> Yeah. And this is the uncomfortable secret or truth that the the pickup artist guys or the red pill guys like don't like to hear or don't kind of refuse to admit which is that this stuff only works on insecure women. It's like, yes, it works, quote unquote, but it works on women who feel bad enough about themselves or who are unsure enough about themselves or who are desperate enough for validation that they will gladly fall for these sorts of tactics over and over, >> the secure, healthy women with good boundaries, like they ditch you within 10 seconds. And I think it's not a coincidence that a lot of these men from these subcultures develop extremely misogynistic views around women in general, right? Because it's every woman that they've had close experiences with has been a very insecure woman and in many cases they've likely the women that they've been with have also likely been very manipulative and controlling themselves. Right? So, it's like you date what you are. And if you are if you decide to become a very controlling, manipulative person, you're going to end up dating controlling, manipulative people. And it's human nature, right? You don't want to admit that you're the problem. You want to just pretend like, oh, all women are [ __ ] or all women are selfish, you know? And it's like, well, no, just the women you're dating. And it's because you're selfish.

>> Oh, okay. So, there's some honesty there that I really I never want to shut down honesty. So that's one reason why I want you on cuz you always say exactly what you feel and what is true.

>> Yeah.

>> There's a little controversy in what you just said though >> that I'd love to address. So you say you attract what you are. It doesn't feel true to me and let me give you an example. We can maybe talk through this. So a lot of my community are people pleasers and I really want to help people. I got into this relationship. He was this guy and he seems so wounded and sweet and so I care for him. Turns out he's a grandiose narcissist and been manipulating you and you have been left >> stripped down to your core of who you don't even know who you are anymore. That doesn't seem like you're dating the person you are.

>> My immediate answer is people pleasers are also manipulative, right?

>> So it's like who are you to fix somebody's life? Who are you to decide what this person should be or should not be? Who are you to decide what his potential is? Um, sorry, a lot of people might not like hearing that, but it it's true, right? And if you go into relationships thinking about the potential of the person that you're dating instead of who they are, >> you're going into it conditionally. You're going into it with like, well, I'm going to date this person because I think I can fix him and make him this way.

>> That's not a loving relationship. And people pleasing is it's difficult. It's a tough one because on the surface it it is admirable. Like you are doing all these admirable things. You're like, "Oh, look at all these things I did for him and I helped him here and I helped him get a new job and I uh picked him up when he wrecked his car and I I took him to rehab when he had his drinking problem and all this stuff." And it's like you look like the saint all the time.

>> But why are you signing up for this? Like why are you

>> all right? I I I I'll relinquish that. understand what you mean. The difference at least for me though is one is a manipulative tactic. So let's say the narcissist for instance, it's manipulative tactic to to find someone who's vulnerable, who I control, who I can overpower in a dominant way.

>> People pleasing, I get it. Sure. Completely actually agree is manipulation.

>> But it doesn't come from a I'm going to get you kind of way like wah.

>> Yeah. I would say in my experience the number of men of narcissistic men who are consciously malicious is very low.

>> Most of men's bad behavior is also it's motivated by the exact same thing. Insecurity, right? It's like he's >> he grew up in a [ __ ] up family. He got bullied and pushed around his whole life. He got his heart broken by the only woman he ever cared about, you know, and so he's his map of the world is you have to do these things because it's the only way you can survive. And it's that's not to justify it. I'm not excusing it. But like most bad behavior, it originates in some form of survival mechanism that originated in trauma. Um, so my experience with most of these, and I coached hundreds of these men, um, I would say 90 95 to 98% of them meant well. They were just very kind of emotionally screwed up and had a lot of issues >> and and I would put my younger self in that category as well. So when when they go out and they're lying to women or they're being pushy or maybe they're being a little controlling or manipulative, they're not seeing it as like aha like my final master plan is almost complete. Like >> that's how I interpret it. The >> it's, you know, that's like the Hollywood version of it. No, like the real version of it is just like he's desperate for affection and validation just as much as she is. And he's been taught that this is the only way to get it is by being aggressive, overbearing, and pushing his will on the people. And it's not to excuse the the bad behavior, but it, you know, maybe it is to explain it.

>> I really I really find it important to understand. So, I love the explanation, even if I hate it. Like I think it's so important because I'm here to understand how men think and then give women the tools >> in order for them to be able to stand up, be confident, and own their power. Like that's my whole thing. So even as we're talking through it, like thank you for being honest about where men are coming from and why they're using these tactics because if you feel shitty about yourself, if you don't if women are always bullying you, if you feel picked on, if boys make fun of you and someone comes and like this is the magic. Yeah, >> this is what's going to make people like you. I get it. Like I understand why. It's just where it then spills over where it's then now you're trapping a woman and you're manipulating a woman. That's where then I have a hard time.

>> Yeah. And it's a lot of these guys too, you know, I I'll say this, a lot of them, >> they don't have the best social skills. They don't read the room super well. I actually want to return to something that you you said very briefly as kind of an aside earlier. >> You mentioned when you introduced the taking control and you said that you mentioned very briefly like men are expected to take initiative. I want to double click on that because I feel like the biggest problems that women experience men never see. And and that is that's the fact that women are just exposed to all these guys that they wish they weren't exposed to. that they have to deal with all these men approaching them all the time that it's just like, God, like get out of my face, dude. Like, holy [ __ ]

>> Uh, men never see that or experience that. So, a lot of men assume women have it easy because they're like, well, you just, you know, you just have to dress up and get cute and 20 guys are going to come talk to you or they don't realize it's the 20 guys you don't want to hear from that are that are doing that. What women don't understand about men is that if you don't approach a woman and if you don't me message them and if you don't take initiative, you're going to be single for the rest of your life. So, you have to learn how to take initiative. You have to learn how to be rejected. You have to learn how to embarrass yourself. And that's a it's a very intimidating and scary thing. And especially if you take a guy who's very insecure and is been picked on a lot in his life and you know feels like a loser, is like very uh has like very low self-esteem, but he wants to date somebody and he's got to put himself out there. What you get is a lot of overcompensation. You get a lot of guys who overdo it and you get a lot of bravado and macho [ __ ] and um and it's really like what it's hiding is just that fundamental fear of like I want to show interest in you but I'm really really scared you're going to reject me because I don't feel very good about myself. So, let me act like a total [ __ ] and say and do all these things uh as a way to protect myself so that when you do reject me, I'll just laugh at you.

>> Yeah. Oh god, that's such a clear insight into how men think. One of the problems I just want to add one little thing that I don't think men realize is yes, you get men coming on to you all the time. You get the wolf whistles, but every single woman I know has been uh inappropriately groped at some point in her life. So, it's like the second a guy comes up to you, you're like, "Where's his hand? How far is he from my perimeter? Can people hear me? Am I safe?" Like, there's all this [ __ ] that runs through your mind when a girl guy just comes up to you. So, a guy, I get it. Like, the petrifying tell if someone's insecure and you're like, "Oh, hey, you have to do the most horrifying thing." Now, you expect the poor guy to put himself out there. So, I completely understand. The problem is, and this is one of the pickup advice that I have, is it's a numbers game.

>> Yes. which I understand like anything, practice, practice, practice. The more you practice, the better you get. I completely get that. The problem is with the pickup world, it's kind of like just keep asking because eventually someone's going to say yes.

>> So, it's as a woman, how do you know if let's say you're a bar or somewhere and someone's coming up to you if they genuinely you find you interesting, right? Versus a guy where he's like, "You're number 56 and now I'm moving on to number 57." Like how do you know when it's genuine interest versus just another notch on their belt?

>> Yeah, I would say look for like curiosity. Is he asking you questions about yourself? Is he does he seem actually interested in what you're saying?

>> Does he have things in common with you? Is he interested in some of the same things as you? Is there effort there? Is there is there curiosity there? Is he thinking about what you're saying to him? Or is he just kind of waiting for you to finish talking? And it's crazy to me that this was like that this was controversial in in the men's dating advice industry when it came out, but I I talked about in my book how it's like how uh you shouldn't optimize for how many women like you. You should optimize for finding how many women you like. And like >> that was controversial >> for men at the time. That was like a light bulb, you know? And it cuz all the advice at the time it was like he's like, "Man, you got to go to the bar. You got to talk to 20 chicks." And like you got to find like you got to find at least five that like you and uh >> and I used to go do that and and I you know I'd go out I'd get like five phone numbers and I couldn't tell you a single thing about any of them and of course they went nowhere right uh and then I shifted my thinking to like okay how do I optimize for the people that I'm interested in >> coming up >> to me it's that level of intensity I actually believe is is a a very large red flag.

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>> Narcissism, it has it it appears as confidence on the surface. So if you are at a distance, narcissism is almost indistinguishable from confidence. And I think that's what's so alluring about it. I think it it is human nature to be drawn to people who are very sure of themselves, um, who speak very confidently, um, who believe in themselves, who have a lot of certainty. Like there's just something very reassuring about being around a person like that. And narcissists are all of those things. The problem is is that a narcissist is completely inflexible in their views. and completely self-absorbed and has no time or room for anybody else's input or perspective whatsoever. So, you it's not really until you get close to them that you start discovering all those things. Um, but I think the problem I see with people who end up in relationships with narcissists, and by the way, a lot of men end up in relationships with narcissists as well.

>> Yeah, actually I remember you saying I've got a note here that says grandio narcissists will actually get laid a lot by female vulnerable narcissists.

>> Yes, they attract each other. Tell me more.

>> Yeah, they attract each other. So, um, narcissists and codependents, I mean, they go together like chocolate and peanut butter. It's because they both scratch each other's it like insecurity itches, right? So, the narcissist needs constant validation uh to feel normal and the codependent or the people pleaser needs to constantly give validation to feel normal. And both are rooted in the same core issue which is that both ultimately feel empty and loathe themselves. Um but the narcissist strategy is like well I loathe myself so why don't I go out and just get constant validation from people around me to feel better. And the people pleaser strategy is I loathe myself. So maybe if I go out and validate and help other people constantly I'll feel better about myself. And so both of those people's toxic patterns match up perfectly, like two puzzle pieces. And so you see them drawn to each other very very consistently. The emotions are very intense, right? So you get kind of this romantic sweep off your feet type feeling. It's this is these are always the relationships where it's like, oh, we met, you know, we met on a Thursday night and we spent the next 72 hours together straight and uh and he called me four times a day for 3 weeks and it it's just like it's very very emotionally intense >> to me. It's that level of intensity I actually believe is is a a very large red flag. um it's like this magical moment and um and it's it's it's sweeping us away and we can't stop being together and we can't stop looking at each other and we can't stop talking and it's usually because there's some degree of codependency going on

>> makes complete sense like magnets.

>> So another spicy take men take this one at face value. Romance is very overrated. Um, especially early in a I think it's funny because I think romance is overrated early in a relationship and it's under it's underrated late in a relationship. Yeah.

>> Because it's it's they've actually done studies like when they look at a human brain that is is like swept away on romance. Like the what's going on in your brain is exactly like cocaine. Like it's the it's the exact same chemicals going off.

>> Rationality goes out the window. you know, bad decision- making. Uh, you become very impulsive. Uh, you know, you become literally addicted to a person, you know. So, it is like cocaine. It is fun and exciting and it and when you're and when you're on it, >> home experiments all you >> when you're on it, when you're on it, you you feel pretty good, not going to lie. But the comedown is very harsh. And and you're very also very likely to just make a lot of bad decisions. And um there's a tendency when you are very romantically infatuated with somebody, there's a thing in psychology called the halo effect, which is basically the people that we're attracted to, we tend to overestimate their character, right? And you see this all the time like when they research like uh physically attractive people in the workplace, their co-workers uh tend to believe that they're more competent than they actually are.

>> The better looking they are, >> the better looking they are. Also, the more trustworthy >> people assume that they are. There's all sorts of things that go along with attraction that when you become attracted to somebody, you start making all these assumptions about their character that that's actually not not necessarily true. Um,

>> and when you're romantically in love with somebody, like you just 10x that, right? It's suddenly it's no, they're amazing, they're brilliant, they're gorgeous, they're so kind, they're amazing, you know, and it's like, well, you've known this guy for three weeks. Like, what are you talking about? You know, you have no idea who he is, right? Um, and and so I just I I tell people I'm like, "Look, romance is great. Like, don't get me wrong, it's it's an incredible feeling, but I think people base too much too many of their dating decisions and relationship decisions on romance and not on character, compatibility, shared values, a lot of the boring stuff that like is not emotionally exciting, but that's the stuff that actually determines whether it's going to be a good relationship or not.

>> When I first met Tom, he had told me that he was Mr. Poet. He would write poetry. He would buy someone flowers. He would turn up on the first date and he's like, "Babe, I never got laid ever." He's like, "They just friend-zoned me." So then he asked, he had a coworker and he was like, "This guy was getting laid left, right, and center." So eventually goes up to him and he's like, "Dude, what's the freaking secret? Like women are swarming you." He goes, "Oh, just treat women like shit." So Tom was like, "Huh? Treat women like shit." So he's like, I can't treat women like [ __ ] Like it doesn't feel good. So what is it that he's picking up on that works for him? And it is that aloof, that bad boy. Like the narcissist, I think part of it is they have a little danger to them. And so even when you see the flags a little, I think it can become a little alluring. Yeah. And there's a in your book you actually talk about one guy um where you say he went from worshiping women with no respect for himself to worshiping himself with no to no respect for women and it worked >> right. So I think this is true in general but I think it's particularly true with women. Um I think female attraction in particular you are attracted to somebody who has something going on in their lives. I think most women in general feel that. I think that's true of men as well, but I think it's when you look at the differences between what men are attracted to and women are attracted to. I think that's one of the things that's notably different is that women generally look for a guy who's he's he has a life. He's got things going on. Um, but the problem is is that, as you pointed out, narcissists also have an identity that they prioritize above any relationship. And >> so it again on the exterior, it appears very attractive. It's like, wow, this guy is like, he's really confident. He's really sure of himself. He's got a bunch of things going on. People seem to like him. Um, and he definitely is like prioritizes himself over over whatever I think. So, like subconsciously that is an indicator that this is a guy who's got stuff going on or he's going places at the very least, right? And you have to be careful and temper that with, okay, yes, it's okay for him to maybe prioritize himself or his own identity over the relationship, but does he still care about the relationship? Does he still care about you? And generally, what you find is insecure people, they're either very good about caring about other people and not caring about themselves, or they're very good at caring about themselves and not other people. The trick is to learn how to care about other people and care about yourself. Hold both of those things to be true at the same time.

>> The other thing that's interesting, this kind of touches with the romance thing, is like it's really unfortunate. I don't know why nature made it this way, but like the things that drive attraction, sexual, and romantic interest are not the same things that drive relationship health. Like those are two different categories. there there's a vin diagram and there's some overlap on some of those traits but those are two completely different categories like and and again this is true for men and women like both men and women are sexually and romantically attracted to a lot of traits that they're like yeah that would be bad in a relationship and similarly there are a lot of things that both men and women are attracted to in a relationship like oh that'd be a great person to have a long-term relationship with but it's not super sexy and you're not getting all hot and steamy on a Friday night over you know so It's uh it's just important to keep both of those things in mind.

>> Uhhuh. Um I love that breakdown by the way. And um there was something you said though that I'm curious because you said, you know, like you you got to like put in some effort, things like that, you actually have a quote from your book. Um even if he's a deadbeat, lacks a good lifestyle or even if he's terrible at expressing himself, lacks good communication skills, he will eventually meet women who want to date and sleep with him. So, what is it that a deadbeat is offering a woman that maybe we overlook the deadbeatness of it?

>> I would argue that there's a certain amount of narcissism in being a deadbeat.

>> A >> right. Like, if I'm going to lay around on the couch all day and expect people to come take care of me.

>> Oh god, you're right.

>> There's on some level, some dimension, I am holding myself in very high esteem and put putting myself in a very special category. So I like good friend of mine Scott Barry Kaufman like kind of pioneered this research in in narcissism and he identified that there's actually two different kinds of narcissists. Most people don't realize this. So the classic narcissist that we all think of is the grandiose narcissist. The person who thinks that they're better than everybody and so they deserve special treatment.

>> But there's a second kind of narcissist which is the vulnerable narcissist which is the person who believes that they are worse than everybody so they deserve special treatment.

>> And that's the dead piece. That's the deadbeat. That's the guy laying on the couch and he's like, "Man, the world's so unfair. This is [ __ ] Like, I can't get a job cuz everybody's an [ __ ] Like, this, you know, things never go right for me."

>> And if you are an an insecure woman who's probably is a people pleaser as well, who is very drawn to taking care and trying to fix people, >> is attracted to people's potential, not who they are, you find a dead beat like that and you're like, you know what? Yeah, the world is not treating him fairly. I'm gonna treat him fairly. I'm gonna take care of him. I'm gonna show him that he can do all these great things. I'm gonna, you know, and it's and you're back in the same cycle. And it it's once again, you know, it it's that desire to feel needed and that that that perpetuates it.

>> Dude, that was so good. All right. So, tell me the difference between being needed and being needy. Um

>> because you tell men don't be needy.

>> Yes. When I was writing my book, what what I really identified is is that ultimately what is attractive is somebody who prioritizes their their view of themselves over the views of other people, >> which I would argue this is actually just a healthy thing, right? like it it's I care very deeply what my wife thinks about me, but at the end of the day, her view of me is probably number two on the hierarchy, but it's never going to be number one. And I would argue that it's not it's not healthy for it to ever be number one. Like I should always value how I see myself more. And and what I argue in the book is that anytime we subvert our own view of ourselves and put it under how somebody else views us, that is a form of neediness because as soon as you do that, you need you start needing that other person's approval and validation and attention to feel normal and whole.

>> And that's what drives needy behavior. That's what drives, you know, texting somebody six times on a Tuesday night. That's what drives um you know driving to your ex's house and banging on the door. That's what drives um you know freaking out and it's anything where you're like I need them to pay attention to me or else I don't feel like a a good person. Um

>> that's neediness. And ultimately neediness is unattractive to anybody who is has a healthy relationship with themselves. Anybody who is non- needy is going to be repelled by somebody who is needy. So needy people end up with each other.

>> That makes sense. Um okay. So learn let's talk about the difference between men and women in neediness because I've got another quote of yours.

>> Okay.

>> Although neediness is a turnoff for most men, it's not the complete deal breaker that it is for women.

>> Yeah.

>> To most women, a man with no neediness is like a woman with perfect tits and gorgeous sculpted ass. To a woman, a man with a lot of neediness is like having the worst breath and missing teeth. I loved it. That was so good.

>> Oh,

>> so tell me the difference then. Why isn't it not a turnoff totally for men, but you think it is for women?

>> So, this gets back into the research on on what men and women are attracted to. And I would say most areas of of psychology there's a lot of debate around if there's gender differences or how big those gender differences are. The one area of psychology where it's there's just very stark differences and it makes sense why >> is around attraction and sexuality. So >> obviously the biggest difference between men and women, women have babies, men don't.

>> Nice and simple. Um so the the way humans evolved over hundreds of thousands of years is that generally speaking in huntergatherer societies or tribes um you know the men would go out and risk themselves to go hunt large animals or go find food and then the women would would stay home and take care of the young and manage the community. And um and this went on for probably 98% of of human history. So, it makes sense that women are going to be sexually attracted to a man who uh is confident, independent, um is pretty self- assured, believes he can accomplish something, um and is resourceful, right? Men, on the other hand, it makes sense that they're probably their attraction is going to be driven a little bit more by caretaking. Do I feel good around her? Do I feel supported? Do I feel nurtured? um is is she nice? Is she sweet? So, on the neediness front, what you see sometimes is like men will end up with a very needy woman and they'll be like, "Yeah, it drives me crazy. Like I wish she didn't text me six times a night, but she treats me well and like, you know, she's really sweet and I have a really good time with her, so like I I'll I'll handle it, right? Whereas, if you're the type of guy who is driving over to a woman's house and like banging on her door in the middle of the night like crying, asking like why she doesn't love him, there's probably nothing more repellent to to a the female psychology than that.

>> You kind of convinced me that.

>> Yeah. It's just like grow some stones, man. Like, I hate to be that like old-fashioned about it, but it it is like you do see it borne out in the research. And this is why it's like ultimately as a man you can get away with a lot of stuff like you can be kind of rough around the edges. You can h have maybe you're not like the most sociable guy in the world. Maybe you're a little awkward. Um but if you're if you seem resourceful and you seem self- assured and you seem to be able to handle yourself, like that's going to take you a long way.

>> I got a follow-up question though. Where is that difference then between them being needy and them needing you? Because you want to break my heart. Just tell me that my husband doesn't need me.

>> Yeah.

>> So, where's that like almost fine line for a woman? Because a woman does want to feel needed.

>> Of course, I I would I would clarify it because they sound similar, but I think they're actually very different things. So, the neediness is really about it's about attention and validation. I would say the needing somebody like when I think about like what I need my wife for. Um I would say it's emotional support and companionship in a life that we're building together, right? Like and those may sound like similar things, but they're actually completely different. The validation piece is very much like I feel I feel insecure and insignificant unless she smiles at me or she she wants to hang out with me or she kisses me, you know, and like that's just a very like ick place to be.

>> Uh whereas needing your partner on an emotional level is really like, hey, I've invested I mean with my wife at this point it's I've invested 14 years of my life with her, right? We've built a beautiful life together.

>> Um, she's my best friend. She's my companion. She's my partner. Um, she's my confidant, right? And you earn that, too, right? Like I think part of the neediness piece is like people show up on day one expecting that. And it's like, no, no, you you

Earn like >> my wife and I, we put in the years together to get to this place.

Yeah. I think you really hit the nail on the head there. That's exactly it. Oh, I love it. Um, okay. And now talking about a lot of like negative things about men, I'd love to like actually move to the positive. So because it's very important for me to also talk about green flags and what you know a really good man looks like. And you actually uh say that the three fundamentals that a man needs and so I'd love to go through those. So you say number one is honest living.

For a woman. So let's say I'm looking for a guy that has these three things. How do I identify that guy is doing the honest living?

Yeah. So, what you see with a lot of insecure people and and women do this as well is that um they worry about their hobbies. They're like, "Well, I'm really into this, but you know, women aren't into that." You know, like you see this especially with kind of nerdy guys. They're like, "Well, I you know, I love comic books, but like such a turn, you know, girls say comics are an ick or whatever." And and so a you're already undermining yourself there to begin with because you're you are now prioritizing somebody else's perception of you over your own. Um and then two, if you don't allow yourself to pursue the things that you care about in your life. Um by pursuing those things, that's where you're going to meet the people most compatible for you.

That's actually great advice also for women because I think also we do the same thing. It's like, oh, you can't just hide this part of you. Just hide this part of you. Um, and then you do start to like a put on a facade of who you are and then just diminish your own loves and hobbies. And I actually remember one of the things that was so attractive, actually it's all coming together now. One of the things that was so attractive to me about my husband, he just owns that he loves toys. Like he just owns that he loves comic books. There was no ounce of like should I be even shameful for saying this out loud. He was just glowing. And I remember thinking like he's not bashful. He really doesn't give a [ __ ] what I think.

Yeah.

Um, okay. Okay, so we've got number two. This is the green flags. Um, number two, honest actions.

Yes, this could be summarized as simple as as does he walk the walk?

Like there the a lot of men in particular will talk a big game. We'll tell you about all the things that they're going to do and all the things that they want to do, but is he actually getting out there and doing it? If you're interested in her, tell her you're interested in her. If you are if you want her want to see her again, ask to see her again. you know, don't don't pussyfoot around and be like, "Well, I don't know, like I need I need the right thing to text or I need to wait three days because that's what some like, you know, guy on TikTok told me to do." It it's if you want something, just say what you want and take action towards it. And I think ultimately um not just women, but people respect that. Coming back to trust and reliability, I think it's the trust piece is particularly important for women that they need to know that the man that they're with is going to do the things that he says he's going to do.

That's so true. And one of the things that I think with dating and then having a long-term relationship is you end up either proving it or not, right? You either build your credibility that every single time I say that I'm going to do something, you've seen that I've done it without fail for 10 years. It's like, okay, you build the credibility versus someone that just every so often just keeps letting you down. I I I think the trust thing too, it's one of those you get stricter about it the older you get, you know, because I think when you're young and you're a little bit more naive and you're like, well, let's see like maybe he'll change or maybe she'll change and maybe we can fix it. Let's maybe we'll get counseling or she's going to therapy now. And I as I've gotten older, it's just you learn to if somebody breaks my trust these days, it's like, okay, nice knowing you.

Coming up, the thing that makes a creep a creep is that it's not really he doesn't really care what the woman thinks. He's just trying to get something from you.

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Okay. And then we got number three under green flags is honest communication.

Yes. This in many ways I think is the hardest for everybody. Um it's it's actually saying what you feel and what you mean. And I think men and women struggle with this in different ways. I think what I observe is that women struggle with this more in terms of like not wanting to upset other people or like cause conflict. And what I noticed with men is just simply not wanting to show vulnerability. And it it's obviously not healthy. It's not good for relationships. And it obviously prevents you from having honest communication and transparency with your partner. The thing, the funny thing about honest communication is it once again I would say 90% of dishonest communication it's not intentional. It's because people are scared and they're insecure and they are in many cases not even aware that they're being dishonest. Right? Like like if I don't know that I'm angry or sad, how the hell can I tell you that I'm angry or sad? Right.

Because you're saying if I haven't been taught how to even process it or recognize it.

Yeah. I don't even know. Right. So, of course, I'm going to lie about it because it's I'm lying to myself.

It's like a liar will pass a polygraph test if they believe their own lies.

Exactly. Exactly.

I never thought of dishonest communication as not being deliberate, but you've just really broken that.

Yeah. I mean, look, everybody lies to some extent. Um it's it's impossible to be 100% honest 100% of the time. But a lot of that is because we lie to ourselves. We hide things from ourselves. We deny things. Um, we pretend things didn't happen. I don't think we ever hit 100% honesty, but I think it's it's extremely important to get get good at being honest at the important things.

You know, so much of the pickup artist stuff, you asked me about like faking disinterest and um, you know, pretending you're not into her. I always thought it was so ridiculous. And and when I really got on this honesty kick, I I I actually started kind of asking myself like, "Okay, how far does this go?" And I started experimenting with I would walk up to a random woman and I would say, "Um, hi, how are you? Uh, my name's Mark. Um, I just noticed you walking by and I think you're absolutely gorgeous and I was just wondering if you know you were open to getting a coffee sometime." And I was shocked. That did so much better than all the other [ __ ] combined.

Not working. And it was like even when the like and and the the amazing thing too is like when you when you do it politely like that like with respect like even when you get shot down it is like the most heartwarming rejection. Like I would have women just be like oh my god you just made my day. I have a boyfriend but like thank you so much. And I'm like like yeah, good for him. He's a lucky guy. And she'd be like oh my god thank you. you know, it was just like suddenly it took this like very scary, intimidating um like you know, power struggle approach to to dating and it just like it made it very simple and like I don't know, warm, you know, warmhearted.

That's so amazing cuz you know, sometimes we do have a good creep radar and so we sense the creeps around us and you know when it's bullshitting. The problem sometimes is when we ignore our gut feeling and that's where then we end up getting trapped by all of these toxic maneuvers.

Yeah. The thing that makes a creep a creep is that it's not really he doesn't really care what the woman thinks. He's just trying to get something from you, right? And that's what's creepy about it.

Um, you say that there are three types of women. So, I want you to tell me what you teach men about identifying these types of women and what it means. So you say number one, you got the unreceptive woman, the neutral woman or the receptive woman.

Yes. So basically when you have this very honest approach, part of the whole point of it is that you find out where you are very quickly. Like it's I think one of the most frustrating thing for both men and women in dating is that you you spend all this time chitchatting and flirting and like you never really find out where you are. And so I created these three buckets and I used to teach men. And I said, "Okay, there's receptive, there's unreceptive, and then there's neutral, which is kind of like undecided." And um so receptive is very simple. You know, it's like some a woman who responds very warmly. She's very she's obviously excited. She's like maybe compliments you back, is clearly very happy to be talking to you, right? um unreceptive is obviously in many cases it's a negative reaction like she's not engaging, she's being polite, but she's like clearly not interested um or participating at all in the conversation. And so with the receptive women, it's like awesome, green light, full speed ahead. Unreceptive women, I I think in the book I say give it 60 seconds, don't waste any time after that. Um, and then you have the undecideds, which are the women who like seem skeptical, but they're like, "Okay, let me see where let me see where this goes." And a lot of women have only experienced shitty, insecure men. And so, when an honest, confident guy shows up, they're like, "Wait a second. Is this a trick?"

Uhhuh. Well, because it served us, right? You're better to be skeptical.

Yes. Then let a stranger into your village if you're going back into, you know, evolution. It's like you're better off being skeptical of the person and making sure they don't enter the village then inviting them in and then finding out that they're actually toxic or bad.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, the goal with an undecided woman is to simply continue showing who you are and continue showing interest and that's it until eventually she will polarize into one of the two buckets.

Um, okay. I'd love to now move on. You talk about this actually um there's two main things that actually can establish whether a relationship is healthy or if it's unhealthy. And so you say number one is how well each of you accepts responsibility.

So the easiest way to spot an unhealthy relationship is when two people are expecting the other to take responsibility for how they feel. Right? So, if I show up, like, let's say I get stuck in traffic on the way home today and I I get back to the house and I'm in a just a [ __ ] mood, uh, and I expect it's my wife's job to cheer me up. That's a really unhealthy dynamic because now I'm like holding her responsible for something that she actually doesn't control.

But you see this happen all the time in relationships where people will literally say like, "You made me sad, so you have to do this, this, and this." And it's like, well, it's I can influence your emotions, but I can't like go inside your brain and like force you to be sad about something. Um, so there's like a there like the most fundamental boundary is that there is a boundary around my emotions are mine. I'm responsible for them. Um, obviously you can influence them, but you do not own them or cause them or create them. I do and vice versa, right? But it's that sort of mindset of like owning her emotions as my problem. It leads down a very I mean in many ways that kind of it is the definition of a codependent dynamic.

Yeah. That made me I used to say that all the time. And what's amazing is in the moment it feels so wonderful because you're like it's all their fault.

That made me feel like like it's so like right it's like if if you're really insecure it's actually easier to blame the other person. You made me do you made me shout. You made me I didn't want to be angry.

Yeah, exactly. I was You made me angry.

The moment I realized you're giving your power away. Yeah.

Like as a woman, if I want to be self assured, if I want self-worth, if I want my confidence in isolation, not with my husband, but in isolation, I have to be able to own my emotions, own my feelings. And the moment I had stopped saying, you made me, I felt even more powerful. It actually made me feel more confident and more powerful to say, "I messed up."

Yeah.

I shouldn't have shouted. I got angry. I apologized. Like that is so much more powerful now than blaming someone else.

Cuz it opens up the potential for improvement, right? And coming back to the narcissistic codependent dynamic, like what you see consistently is that narcissists expect other people to be responsible for how they feel and codependents take responsibility for how other people feel.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right. So, now, so then talk to me about the scorecard that a lot of couples do where it's like you did this, I did that. So like kind of again not only that responsibility.

So once you once you're in that pattern of it's your fault that I'm angry, oh you you made me sad, you know, you did this thing last month, so now you have to make it up for me and blah blah blah. you start getting into this power dynamic and people will start um they they start creating what I call the relationship scorecard which is basically like okay since you're now controlling my emotions I'm going to keep track of all the times you hurt me and then I'm going to hold that against you to get what I want. I mean, I don't even like I don't even know how to describe like how unhealthy of a dynamic that that is that becomes because it's not only at that point, not only you are you no longer respecting your autonomy in your agency, you're now not you're now no longer respecting theirs either.

Is it like a zero sum game where it's like no one actually wins because when you're in a partnership like that in that moment, yeah, maybe you feel like you've won quote unquote, but it's like what kind of dynamic do you have? Like with me and my husband, the analogy I just love is I think of our relationship as a game of tennis. The question is you get to choose whether you're playing a game of singles or a game of doubles. And so a game of singles is you're on one side of the net, your partner's on the other. Only one of you can win. And what do you do? You hit the ball at them hoping they'll miss. When you're playing a game of doubles, you're on the same side. If you win, I win. If you lose, I lose. You know, the best thing I've come come across around this is um there's a there's a book called Nonviolent Communication, and it's very tactical. It's like a it's about the phrasing of all these different things. So, most people will default to saying like, "You made me angry." And what non-violent communication will teach you to do is actually say, um, when you do that, I feel angry as a result, therefore, could you please stop doing that?

I love it. Um, and then you say number two. So the way to see between a healthy and unhealthy relationship is the willingness to reject or be rejected by their partner.

It's the willingness to say no and it's the willingness to hear no. Um I think in any healthy relationship each partner feels free to say no or to to reject an idea from the other one and is also open to to hearing no from their partner. Uh it comes back to that respect for agency and it comes back to you know there are plenty of things that uh I think or want to do that my wife's not really on board with and I'm like all right well I guess we'll do something else you know and vice versa.

Um me and my husband have phrases like no but I would do it if it's important to you and so even the word important we don't abuse. So like we probably say that word maybe twice a year.

Oh wow.

Maybe it's like it carries that much weight. So even when he's like, "Do you want to bl or can you?" And I'm like, "No, I I really don't want to. Is it important?" He'll go, he'll think about it. And he's like, "No, it's not important." I'm like, "I don't want to do it then." Yeah. He goes, "Oh, I don't." And he's like, "Yeah, it's really important to me." I was like, "Cool. I am there. I'm in spirit." But also the spirit, not just I'm there. I'm actually excited and encouraging. And so, uh, yeah, I found that really made such a difference.

A great one. Yeah.

One that that we use a lot is uh low conviction, high conviction with like ideas. So sometimes I'll I'll sit down with my wife and I'm like got an idea, you know, what if we low conviction, what if we move to Tahiti, you know, or something like that. Whereas if I'm like, no, this is a high conviction perspective. It means it's like, no, this is like a hill I'm willing to die, right? Like actually pay attention.

Yeah, I love that. Um, okay. So, now I want to move on. So, you talk about the three harsh truths about love and let's just go through them. All right, we got number one. Love doesn't equal compatibility.

Yes. Yes. It this comes this comes back to romance being overrated early in a relationship. You can fall in love with somebody who's not good for you. It's not a good relationship and and it's better that we're not in that relationship. Uh, it's funny because I think love kind of gets idealized a lot in our culture and people assume that, okay, well, because I love somebody or we love each other, we're going to find a way to make it work.

Like, anything can be fixed because we love each other. And

Love conquers all.

Love conquers all, right? But it's I think that's unrealistic from what I understand from all the all all the data and research. Like, it's just not accurate. It's you can fall in love with somebody who's not compatible with you, who's not good for you, who's not going to make you happy. And as a result, we should actually downgrade um how much we prioritize romantic love.

Do you find more women get trapped in that than men?

I think so. I think women I think women definitely idealize love a lot more. Um I think there's a lot more kind of social pressure around it. Um, but it's funny actually if you look at um there's a lot of really interesting data on divorces and breakups. Men actually recover worse from divorces and breakups which you wouldn't expect.

Yeah. No. Um I actually had this recently. Um I can't remember who was telling me but they were explaining to me it's because women have social groups and so you have that support. you have that emotional thing where you can go to your friends and cry and say he was an [ __ ] and you know a lot of women have divorce parties and you know it's like come on girl you go you know so it's like he was an [ __ ] in a way which I love like if you if it really was toxic and you're leaving like let's freaking celebrate but men don't have circles like how often does a guy go to another guy he's like how you feeling man all right or you know there was one story recently my husband found out from someone one of our friend, something really big. And I was like, "Oh my god, tell me more." He goes, "I don't know anymore." I'm like, "Did you ask follow-up questions?" He's like, "No." So, it's like guys don't have that intimate talk. Do you think that's why that they find it hard to

It's a huge part of it. It's never really socially acceptable. It's funny. My my wife is obsessed with this show um called Love is Blind.

Oh my god, I've seen one season. It's so fun.

It's really fun. And for people who are listening who who have never seen the show, it's you know, people date without seeing what each other look like. they have to propose um to be able to see what the other one looks like. And the whole time that this is happening, all the men are living in a house together and all the women are living in a house together. But it was super fascinating because so these couples were they were going into the pods, the men were proposing and they're coming back into the pods and it and when the women would come back to the house, as soon as the girl opened the door, all the other girls would like stop what they're doing and look and be like, "So?" And then she she'd like show the ring or whatever. And then like everybody starts screaming like, "Oh my god, group hug and like women are crying and they're so happy for each other." And it was so amusing watching the guys because

What do the guys say?

The guy would come back in and like all the, you know, it's like all the all the guys are like at the table playing cards or something and they'd all just kind of look up and they'd be like, "So what happened?" And be like, "We're doing it." And be like, "My man." You know, like that's it. And it would be really funny cuz it's there were there were like these segments too that you could tell like the producer tried to force them that to talk about it cuz like there'd be like two guys sitting there and like one of the guys would be be like very awkwardly be like so uh are you in love with her? And then the other guy be like very awkwardly like yeah man she's really special to me you know and it's just like so

The men so bloody boring because they wouldn't talk about anything.

So painful to watch. So painful.

Oh dear, that's too funny. Oh yeah, the difference is insane.

Can I ask please? Yes, there is a male version of that.

Okay.

Which is I think men get trapped by sex,

Women get trapped by love.

Interesting. Say more.

I can't tell you how many guy friends I've known over the years who will be in a relationship with a a very toxic woman. It's very manipulative, very narcissistic, very controlling, and you will just watch their self-esteem just get beaten down month after month after month. But like, you know, you hang out with them and you're like, "Dude, why do you put up with this?" And it's just like at the end of the day, it's like, man, she's [ __ ] my brains out. She's so hot. She's sexy. She like does all the crazy [ __ ] I want to do. Like, it's men are it's it's sad. But so when I have conversations with men, I'm like I'm like dude, your dick is not that important. It's just like come on, man. Like you are a full human being. You have thoughts and interests and beliefs and like a whole future in front of you. Do not sacrifice it for your dick. It But it men really struggle with that.

Wow, dude. I've never thought about that.

And but it's I think it's because men derive a lot of their self-esteem from sex.

Yeah. Right. So, it's we grow up saying like if you're getting laid, if your girlfriend's super hot, if she's sexy, if like you're, you know, you're doing everything you want to do in the bedroom, like you're the man.

And same with a woman. A woman's turn, as long as you're married, as long as a man loves you and got your ring on, you're done. You're good.

Yep.

Yeah. Who cares how they treat you? If you think about it, like from an evolutionary point of view, pregnancy is is a massive risk. Massive risk. like you're already vulnerable, but then on top of that, you're like carrying this child inside of you for 9 months. And then you give birth and then you're breastfeeding and you're carrying this infant around for like another two. Like it's like three years of your life that you are just a sitting duck in terms of, you know, predators and prey. And so you need to make sure a guy's going to stick around and he's going to he's going to be there when you need him and he's going to stand up if you need him to do something and he's going to protect you if a threat shows up. And uh so it makes sense. And then on the guy's side, it's it it's it's brutal to think about it this way, but like it's from a genetic or evolutionary point of view, you know, women's willingness to have sex with you is in many ways kind of an indictment on how valuable your genetics are, right? And so if no woman wants to sleep with you, what is very much programmed into a man's psyche is that like you're not valuable, right? Because if you were valuable, women would be lining up to sleep with you. So So you need to go find women who will line up to sleep with you to prove to yourself that you're valuable.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's so interesting.

Okay. So now moving on to the second harsh truth. The first one was so hard. The second one, how do we go from here?

It's only down, guys. It's only down. All right, so we got number two. Love doesn't solve relationship problems. How many people do you see getting um think that if they just stay, it's going to be solved?

Yeah. Oh, all if I just love him more.

All the time. Yeah. It's if if if I just love him more, if I support him more, if I'm there for him more, if I do this, if I do that, it's um look, feelings don't solve real problems. You can you can love somebody as hard as you want to love them, but I if if they have a major life issue or if you have a significant incompatibility in terms of values or um worldviews, like there's there's no surmounting it. um and gets the the illusion that love can solve these very real tangible problems gets people into a lot of difficult situations. And on top of that, I think love in many cases can complicate them because you feel like you can heal somebody with your love, that you can fix somebody if you love them enough. And what you end up doing is just enabling them to self-destruct even further.

Yeah. And they know, oh, you're going to stay no matter what.

Yeah. Um unfortunately I have known in the past um a couple of women who got pregnant in hoping that the guy would stay.

Oh yeah.

People have a kid they think thinking that it will solve a a marriage problem. People will get married thinking it'll solve a relationship problem. Um people have a second kid because thinking that it'll solve the problem that started when they had the first, you know. So it's just >> people will double down in this department.

Um all right. So, we got the third harsh truth about love. Love doesn't solve your problems. In fact, it often creates more problems for you.

Speaking from experience.

Go on.

I mean, it comes back to falling in love with somebody who's not good for you, right? You know, it's it's you you can

How was your ex not good for you? Oh, she and I, you know, my first girlfriend, she and I were both very deeply insecure.

Is this the girlfriend that cheated on you?

Yeah, she cheated on me, left me. Um, which then hurt me very deeply obviously. Um, and I think added kind of an anger on top of there was a lot of insecurity and just dysfunction inside of me already, but then when she did that, it added an anger on top of it. Um, and a kind of an angry hurt towards women. And so I think that's when I found the pickup artist stuff. And when you're a person who's been like very deeply hurt and you're very angry, uh, you you can justify things to yourself. You know, you can say like, "Well, well, yeah, [ __ ] them."

Did she somewhat paint a picture of what how you saw all women after that then? Like, was it like, "Yeah, they be [ __ ] I'm going to go cheat on them." Like, was it like she had that anger had triggered anger towards women?

Yeah. It wasn't conscious, right?

It just came out that way, right? cuz it's like obviously um when the first person that you date or have an intimate relationship with hurts you that bad, it's impossible to date other people without associating them with that first person. Right? So, I went into every relationship expecting the worst and zero trust from the get-go. Um, and when you're in a place where you're have low expectations and low trust, it's easy to justify your own bad behavior. You're like, well, this is what women have done to me, so why shouldn't I get what I want occasionally? And and then you kind of get repeat this cycle, right? So, it's behind every [ __ ] is a [ __ ] that broke his heart and behind every [ __ ] is an [ __ ] that broke her heart. So the cycle just perpetuates, you know, down through the generations. I also too, I mean, I I had a lot of insecurities uh around masculinity as well. Um so, you know, kind of being the player, hooking up with a lot of girls, it was filling that void as well. So, you know, proving that I'm I'm as masculine or as much of a man as like some of the other guys. Uh, and so what I discovered in college, you know, once I did kind of discover the the pickup stuff, I discovered I was really good at it. Like I can talk, you know, I I'm I'm clever. I can make jokes. I can tell a good story. And uh, and women like that. And so as long as I kind of had like a framework guiding me on on where to go with it. Um, I did really well. And pretty soon in school, I I became known as the guy who just hooked up with girls all the time.

Oh, so you were the player?

I was the player.

Wow. and and that felt really good, especially coming from my previous relationship and coming from my experience growing up and everything like that was very validating.

But as I got further into my 20s, it what I saw is that it was just completely incompatible with any sort of satisfying relationship whatsoever. Like just lots of disappointments, lots of, you know, upsetting different women, disappointing different women, cheating on different women. Um.

Oh, so you started to then cheat. Oh.

Had you cheated before that?

No. And it's funny. So with my second girlfriend, the roles were reversed, which was I became the narcissist and she was the the people pleaser and she was trying to fix me. And it it it's really interesting looking back now because I and this is why I said early on in the episode that those two people are not that different. like they they are the same person because you will see I I flipped and I've seen many other people in my life flip on a dime as well. Like it's not very far to go from vulnerable narcissist to grandio narcissist and back again. Um you just all you do is you just flip your relationship with the world. And I for my the first 20 years of my life, my my script inside of me was um you know, every woman is better than me. I would be lucky to be with any of them. And then when I had my heart broken, it doesn't take much to flip that script and say, "Oh, I'm better than every woman. They're lucky to be with me." And you you have the same level of delusion. you just you just reverse the the play the placeholders. Um and so I I ended up in a relationship with um with a a great girl in my 20s who uh unfortunately took on to took the task on herself to try to fix me and um cheated on her a bunch of times, was just like very selfish, was just a was just an [ __ ] And it's it's really sad because she's she was great. Like she was a really good person. And I eventually reached a point with her where I was like, I really respect her, but I keep hurting her. So, like, clearly something's wrong with me. And that was the moment where I went and tried to go figure my own [ __ ] out. And um and that eventually led me to all this.

Wow. Um so, do you think that flip of power, it's because you were hurt, you instinctually think, well, I don't want to feel this again. So I it's better that you're the person that is causing the pain versus receiving the pain.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it is it's self-preservation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um all right, going to move on.

So in everything we've been speaking about, I love how we've broken down the differences and thinking through what toxic behavior looks like, what honest, genuine behavior looks like. Sometimes it's the, you know, uh different side of the same coin. Um, but now to end on a positive note, you talk about the number one key to successful relationship is trust and respect.

Yeah.

So, why are those two things so important?

I would argue that it without trust and respect, no amount of love matters. And in fact, without trust and respect, love is probably becomes harmful, right? Because it it's what keeps you in a place where you're not being trusted and respected. Um, so literally with love it can be toxic, really harmful or beautiful. And that all depends on whether you have these two elements of trust and respect.

Yeah. Love is not by itself a good thing. It's an amplifier. It amplifies whatever the relationship already is.

So if you have a very damaging unhealthy dynamic, love will just make that unhealthy dynamic 10 times more unhealthy and more painful.

Oh my gosh, you're so white. And if you have a a beautiful loving relationship, love will just amplify that 10x. So love by itself is actually strangely neutral. And so you have to be very careful who you allow yourself to love and um who who you u who loves you in return. Um but if you don't have trust, it's impossible to not fall into a power dynamic, right? Like because if you don't trust a person, then the only way you can still be around them is to try to manipulate them and control like what they do or, you know, guarantee some sort of behavior out of them, which means now you're manipulating them. You're trying to influence them, which means that you you don't have intimacy. You you have a you're probably keeping a scorecard. It's it's probably a mess.

So without trust, everything just falls apart.

Respect. Um, I think respect is is in many ways rarer and deeper and and more important than love is. Um, and respect is simply I would say it's allowing yourself to be influenced by another person. If my wife has an opinion, if I didn't respect her, I wouldn't even bother listening. Right? But because I respect her so much, not only do I listen, but let's say her opinion contradicts one of my own, I I will sit there and re-evaluate what I think. Like because I respect her, I will try to understand, well, why do you want that thing? And what's motivating you about it? What's appealing about it? Um, without respect, it's I think it's it's none of it none of this other stuff works. Yeah, it's so interesting. I literally just had Adam Lane Smith on and he was telling me that saying to a man you respect him is one of the most powerful things you can ever do and say. And it never really dawned on me to say it because to your point, it's like you either feel respected or you don't. You feel disrespected or you don't. And so I went up to Tom and I was like, I respect you. And he looked so shocked. And I said, "How do you feel about that?" And he was like, "It feels really good." And I was like, "What's more important, respect or love?" And he goes, "To be honest." He's like, "If you didn't respect me, I could never be with you." It's like the one thing like love has like almost like es and flows in this. Like I feel really loved today and now, you know, not so much, but respect. He's like, "It's either there or it's not. And if it's not there, we're done."

I was just going to say it's the times in my relationship that I feel unloved. I generally speaking I I kind of assume that it's like well she's probably stressed or maybe she didn't sleep last night or you know maybe she forgot. I I I've like I'm like very forgiving of it or I kind of assume the best. Um but it's funny when I feel disrespected. That's usually when a fight starts.

Mark Manson, dude, this has been so fun. Thank you so much for coming on. If they want to go deeper into your world, where can they find you?

They can find everything is uh website's markmanson.on.on.on.on.on.on.on.on.on.onet. I'm literally on every platform. So, anything you uh any social media or YouTube or whatever. Um I als I also have a podcast. It's called The Solve Podcast. Um it's on Spotify, Apple, every everywhere you listen to podcasts. Check it out.

That's cool. And I love your YouTube channel, by the way. Love it. Guys, guys, I was so excited to have this man on. We've known each other for eight, nine years now. A while. And so, having him on today was such an honor. the way he thinks, the no hold barred way that he delivers things like it's exactly what I want. That's why you come to Women of Impact. So you can get the truth. We're here to build our confidence together. And we can't do that if we're Molly coddling each other. We can only do it by addressing the truth, being honest. And today, he's just showered us with so much information. So guys, please go check him out. If you're not following me, smash that subscribe button down there. And until next time, be the hero of your own life. Peace.

Yay. That was so good. That was fun. If you've just seen too many red flags in your life and you want to start spotting the green flags in a guy, then you're definitely going to want to watch this episode here with a masculinity coach, Jason Wilson. As someone who coaches men in masculinity, help us women finally understand why does a man