Transcription
Before we turn to criminal, uh, and defense attorney William Julier, thanks for being with us here on France 24.
Good evening.
Uh, to be, to be a, a fly on the wall in that courthouse. Your thoughts on, on this case? How have you processed this in your head?
First of all, I have, I have. It's, uh, it's not unprecedented because there's the, the Noriega precedent. Even if Noriega was not a head of state elected, uh, he was de facto head of state, he was head of armies, uh, in Panama, 1989. That's it. So, it's not exactly the same situation, but it is not kind of super far away. Uh, but it is nearly unprecedented. Um, and, um, yeah, there's so much to say.
I mean, so this is, first of all, let's begin with, uh, uh, uh, the indictment because, uh, this is a, they, they dusted off an indictment that had been sealed back in 2020 during Trump's first, uh, administration.
The indictment links Nicholas Maduro to the former head of the FARC gorillas in Colombia. Does this hold up in a court of law?
I don't know. Uh, when you read the indictment, there's this kind of mix, which is, which is quite something. You see quite often in the US with these cases built by the DEA when it comes to terrorism, to drugs, and this ends up with this narco-terrorism concept, which is not a concept that we grasp very easily here in France. We don't really have these things. We have financing of terrorism, then drugs can come in, but we don't have all this conspiracy, narco-terrorism, uh, concept.
So they'll have to produce evidence at a later date.
They will, that's for sure. I mean, the discovery phase will probably start quite quickly now, and this can go on for months where the, uh, prosecutor will need to provide all the evidence that they consider they have in their bundle, also actually the evidence that can help the defense. And then the defense, defense will, will obviously fight back.
But, and you heard Jessica Lear say that this, this judge, he's a veteran, 92 years old, no friend of Donald Trump. Could the case get thrown out if the, uh, if the evidence is too flimsy?
It could get thrown out for that reason, or also because, uh, the lawyers, the defense lawyers will be able to put forward arguments about the legality of the arrest. Probably they will also come strong on the immunity question. Uh, if this, um, had taken place in France, uh, probably the Cassation here in France Supreme Court would not have said that, uh, the fact that Maduro was abducted, because that is what happened, is a reason to drop the case because it is built on an non-legal arrest. Because we have the Carlos precedent, Carlos the terrorist. He was abducted by the French intelligence forces in Sudan before getting him presented to various courts in France and sentenced to life. So the French courts would not, I think, have too much, uh, legal and moral issues about the way he was captured, but there would be a major issue about his immunity. Um, the French Supreme Court in July 2025, a couple of months ago, made a very strong decision on the Bashar al-Assad case, saying that it was not possible to prosecute, to issue an arrest warrant against a president, head of state during the time he is, during his mandate. So that is a major argument. And just to finish, the legal grounds for this is presidential immunity during the time of your mandate, and this is a rule which is an international customary rule, and the US should, uh, comply with this rule. But we have the Noriega precedent, he was not officially head of state. So we'll see how that unfolds.
We'll see how that unfolds for his defense. Nicholas Maduro employing Barry Pollock, a Washington lawyer, uh, who worked on the Julian Assange case, which you also, uh, worked on. What does that tell you?
I didn't work on it. I commented on the case, uh, on France 24 amongst other places, but, yeah, I do know about the case quite a lot. Um, listen, I mean, I, I, I don't know. I mean, obviously this is a case with, um, a political color. Is it a political case? I guess it is. It can't really be more political than this one. Then once again, it's going to be about what is the US judicial system going to do? Because the US political system, we know what they did. Uh, it's been done. Everybody, uh, within the political, um, Trump galaxy is, uh, claiming that this is an unbelievable achievement and success. We'll see how the judicial system approaches what happened. But I mean, obviously on legal grounds, there's this immunity question. I mentioned it, and there is also how he was arrested, which obviously should bring discussions because behind the arrest, there are various international crimes, crime of aggression. You can't, you can't bombard another country. You can't send your police officers. You can't send your army in a qu, in a sovereign country, even if you don't think that the head of state has been properly elected. You're not supposed to do that. This is an obvious international crime. So then we know that the US is not [snorts] complying with the international criminal court requirements. Consider that they have no obligation to, um, comply with some of the international, uh, rules of law, but I guess there will be discussions about that. We'll see how it goes.
All right. There's been, we could go on and on about cases where the United States has played perhaps fast and loose with international law, but this is a spectacular move, as you describe it.
Since World War II, the world has played by what's called the Washington Consensus, which is a rules-based order, uh, which is sort of safeguarded by the [clears throat] United States. Does this case, is this the straw that breaks the camel's back, that there is no longer a Washington Consensus?
I think it's finished. I think this is finished, and I think it has actually been finished maybe a while ago. I mean, we've got various precedents, and I do think that I'm, I'm a bit outside of my maybe legal field here, but I think there's a strong connection between what is happening here and probably the interplay between the US and China for world domination. And I do think that Taiwan might be the next thing to come.
That's the geopolitics side. But what does it mean for a, for a lawyer who has to, you know, deal with things like, it's international. It's international law.
I was bringing it for the legal aspect. It's, it has to do with it because international law is, we'll see what happens. But it is becoming nearly a slogan. Everyone is saying, "Oh, this is a crime of aggression. This is contrary to international rule of law." But then the question is, what happens? What then? And the answer is nothing. Nothing will happen. And there are actually no real means for something to happen because if this court in the US is going to proceed and carry on with this and Maduro is sentenced as Noriega was sentenced, as others were sentenced, and Noriega actually, after being, after serving 17 years in the US, was sent to France where he was sentenced again, seven years for money laundering. So [snorts] once things have happened and once someone was abducted, would he be head of state or not, and the system carries on, then nothing really can stop the process because legally speaking, apart from people making protests or saying, "Oh, look, this is not compliant." Nothing will happen. And what can the UN do? The answer is nothing. UN Council, uh, Security Council veto by the US. So nothing will happen. What could happen? Maybe the only route would be the International Criminal Court. Venezuela has ratified the Rome Statute. So that means...
The United States is not a member.
No, but Russia is not, and there's a warrant against Vladimir Putin. Israel is not. There's a warrant out there against Netanyahu. So then our country is going to execute these warrants. But there could be an investigation of the ICC. Would there be, uh, jurisdiction for the aggression, um, uh, uh, crime, which for Venezuela, I think there isn't. So that won't work out. But that would be the only lead. It would not be a perfect one, but it would be one. But I think that for aggression on Venezuela, it won't work. So...
Yeah.
The bottom line is nothing. William Julier, I want to thank you so much for for being...