Transcription
Welcome to BBC News. Now, in an exclusive interview with BBC News, Prince Harry has said he is devastated about losing his latest legal challenge over the security he receives when he's in the UK. The Duke of Sussex's taxpayer funded protection was downgraded back in 2020 after he stopped being a working royal. Well, he appealed arguing he was singled out for different, unjustified, and inferior treatment. But three judges at the Court of Appeal today rejected that appeal.
Well, now following that judgment, he's told the BBC that it is currently impossible for him and his family to return to the UK. He's also said that because of the current situation, his father, the king, isn't speaking to him. Well, Prince Harry is currently living in California where he's been speaking to our correspondent Neda Torphic, and we can bring you that extended interview now.
But um obviously pretty uh pretty gutted about the uh the decision. We thought it was going to go our way, but it certainly have it certainly is proven that there was no way to win this through the through the courts. Wish I someone had told me that beforehand. Um but um yeah, it's it's um it's been the decision has been been a surprise as well as not a surprise. Um, so yeah, I for the time being it's impossible for me to take my family back to the UK safely.
You're obviously very deeply affected by this. Um, what memories, experiences had you hoped your children, Archie and Lily, would have had that you think they won't be able to now with this decision?
Well, for a start, the the only time that I've come back to the UK is sadly for for funerals or court cases um with the the odd charitable function um where I can in between that. Um you I put myself at risk for that, but I I will continue on with a a life of public service. So, I will always support the charities and the people that mean so much to me. Um, I I can't see a world in which I would be bringing my wife and children back to the UK at this point. Um, and the things that they the things that they're going to miss is well, everything. You know, I love my country. I always have done. Um, despite what some people in that country have done. Um, so, you know, I I miss I miss the UK. I miss parts of the UK. Of course I do. And I think that's it's really quite sad that I won't be able to show, you know, my children my homeland, you know, and as you say, you've gone back several times during this years's long battle.
What about the security arrangements that were in place made you feel it would be unsafe for you and your family?
Um there's only so much that I can say because of the redaction process and the national security matters um at hand but [Music] um everything because in 2020 beginning of 2020 I was scored the highest as far as risk was concerned and then overnight I was reduced to the lowest without actually going through the risk management board. So one one does question how that is even possible and also the motive behind that at the time and that was in 2020. And as hard as it is to appreciate or understand why the decision was made the way that it was in 2020 the hardest thing for me has been the fix of that decision for the last 5 years. the fact that I still haven't had a risk management board assessment done for me over the last 5 years. Everybody else within this group of people uh get it at the minimum once a year. Um, so again, I yeah, I I I would not have taken this this far if I didn't have compelling evidence uh of facts that um that reveal why the decision was made. Um, and I'm sitting here today talking to you where, you know, I've we've we've we've lost the we've lost the appeal, but the other side have won in keeping me unsafe. So again, there's there's a lot of question marks that a lot of people will have. I have all of the truth. I have all of the knowledge now throughout the legal process. I've uncovered my worst fears. Um and to now know today based on this judgment that there was no legal framework that constrains the decisions of this body rack of which the royal households sit on and I didn't know that until this legal process in 2021 of the first things my lawyer said to me was as disclosure started or as this process started she turned around and said and did you know that the raw household sat on Ravik and my jaw hit the floor.
Well, I want to ask you about that because the king's private secretary sits on Ravic now, Cliveton. Yeah. Do you wish and and another person as well, but yes. Do you wish your father had intervened despite how that may have looked?
Um, I've never asked him to intervene. I've asked him to step out. I step out of the way and let the experts do their job. This rabbit committee is an expert committee full of professionals plus the royal household and the royal household don't have any role on that on the rabbit committee other than the helping influence the decisions based on members of the royal family and 5 years later every single visit that I do back to the UK has to go through the royal household. My representative on on the rabbit committee still to this day is the royal household. That is not a decision that I choose. I am forced to go through the royal household and accept that they are putting my best interests forward during these conversations and the deliberations. Um so no, I've I I haven't asked my father to intervene. um the whole point of a riskmanagement board which as I said everybody else gets but I haven't never been given since back end of 2019 was the last one that I was given. The whole point of that is to have a board a risk assessment a separate board from RAB that considers all of the facts and all the circumstances. Um it is a system and an assessment that is designed to be nonbias and to avoid interference. What I know throughout this legal process is the interference that was created came from the royal household and uh the RAVC chair at the time who I believe I can talk about because he's no longer there, Sir Richard Motram. the first thing he did or the first people that he went to go and see was uh the royal household at the palace. Um so whether it's the media or whether it's anybody else that claims that the royal household and and my father my family don't have any decision-m capabilities on RAV. Well then what's their role? They're not experts. What's their role on that? and Sir Richard Motram uh emailed back in January of of 2020 that an R&B would be necessary before taking my security away. Um after his visit to the palace, that R&B that was planned was abandoned in favor of uh alternative governance measures.
What the court decided today was that they were justified for four reasons to not have that review. And a major part of that is because you're no longer a working royal. A change in your status. Do do you not accept that from the court?
Well, my my my my status status um hasn't changed. It can't change. I am who I am. I am part of what I'm part of and I can never escape that. Um, my circumstances will will always be the same. But with a specific answer to the question, um, there are comparisons that exist. And, um, again, I have to be careful what I say. But I think it would be quite shocking for the British public and the public at large to understand or know that in fact many people do know this that people who leave public office receive lifetime protection regardless of whether there are threats or risks to them. So for me with a whole list of risks and threats that were known about in 2020 and that have only increased over time including the al-Qaeda threat that was published and talked about recently um completely disregarded, thrown away, ignored because for me security is was made conditional on having that official role. that role that everybody knows that myself and my wife um wished to carry on but was stopped from being able to do that back in 2020.
What do you say to those who ask why should the taxpayer pay for your police security if you have your own private security? Where are the gaps there? What's your response to those who say you're getting police protection on a case-by case basis?
Um, I thought why don't you ask that question again but in three parts if you could because you've just put three very very important questions together. Sure. And I can't possibly answer all three of them at the same time. Sure. What do you say to those who ask why the UK taxpayer should pay for police security? You have your own private security.
Um, well, first off, um, private security can only do so much. Um again I can't go into the details of that but I think most people will be able to work that out. Uh one of the major things is they don't have jurisdiction in a foreign country or in any country. They don't have any jurisdiction. Um police protection is effective protection which is what my grandmother made very clear that we needed. Um with with regard to the to the taxpayer part of it. um they would I don't know need to go into detail how much you know the royal family costs or how much protection costs or whatever you know what I will say is that the uh some of the British press British tabloid press did a very good job in campaigning to have our security removed by quoting figures such as 20 million right and through this disclosure process I've seen constituents in the UK write to their MP saying I don't want to as a taxpayer I don't want to pay for for for Megan and Harry's security at this cost they're literally quoting headlines from uh British newspapers. Those figures are obviously grossly exaggerated by about 18 19 times. Um, and further to that, how if if you know that other people are being protected, people that have made a choice for public office, then why wouldn't you be comfortable, happy with with with someone in my position who's given 30 years, 35 years service uh to his country uh two tours of Afghanistan. Um, and the threats and risks to my life, I was I was born into this position. I was born into those risks and they've only increased over time along with my marriage to Megan um and the the frenzy across media, mainstream media and social media that that created. So you know and I guess on top of that as well probably what people don't know but that is uh mentioned in the the judgment today. Ravoc protect private citizens. You know I was made a private citizen by the royal household not by Ravk by the royal household. I can't be a private citizen. I will never be seen as a private citizen. I will never be treated as a private citizen. Not by the media, not by most people, and certainly not by anybody that uh that wants to harm me or my wife or our kids. So, so you know I think once people realize or understand that there are private citizens who have never played any role in public office and never will play any public role um that because they are high risk they are protected at taxpayers's expense and rightly so because it would affect not only would that person could they be end up in hospital or worse on UK soil but it comes down to impact And it comes down to the reputational impact of the UK if that person or those people are injured on UK soil. But apparently for me that doesn't matter.
And just to be absolutely clear, what is the difference between the top level security you say you should have and the security you are given on this case byase basis when you go.
So the the details of the security I can't talk about. All I will say is that uh the last R&B assessment I was given I scored the highest. Um the only person within the family that scored anywhere near that was my grandmother. Overnight I was reduced to the lowest. This case by case basis has been used uh by the by RAVC and also by large sections of the British press um to say what's the big problem? you're you're you're you're given you're given something on a case by case basis. Unfortunately, that case by case basis is separated by uh the reason for my visit. So, yeah. So, just to give you more context on that, um it's it's it's not really a case by case basis. It's an either or. If you're invited to the UK by your family, then we will give you security. If you count them for any other reason, then you will get a very low amount of security. I'm not going to confirm what that is, but it is completely insufficient. Um, and uh, somewhere along the line, people have talked about the fact that it really all it is is someone on the end of a phone. So, you know, no matter how much private security I have around me, there's only so much that I can do and and operate and function within the UK when it comes to supporting my charities, visiting my friends, all of these things. So, you know, it is I have been treated very very very differently to everybody else that exists. All examples that exist, past, present, um I have been singled out.
You've spoken very openly about the fact that you think you've been punished for leaving the monarchy. Who specifically do you think is trying to punish you?
Um I don't um I don't I don't think that anymore. Now I now I know that it was you know security was used as as leverage. Um and I think what really worries me more than anything else about today's decision depending on you know what happens next is that it's set a new precedent um that security can be used to control members of the family and effectively what it does is imprison other members of the family from being able to um you know choose a different life. Um, you know, if if if for me security is conditional and having an official role, one that both myself and my wife wished to carry on, but then was rejected, not by Rabbec, was rejected by the royal household. And the result to that is you lose your security, that basically says that you can't live outside of outside of their control um if you want to be safe. Um, but there's a pretty hard decision there. Um, and I think if you strip away all the noise of everything that's been said by other people and all the noise that's been created around this, if you strip that all away, I think what people will hear is that the only thing that I've been asking for throughout this whole process is safety. Both when I was in part when when I was part of the institution and when uh and when when we left. And the important piece here net nea is you know for for me and my wife well I mean this again I'm I'm not I'm not sure how much I can say but well we I can never leave the royal family. Yeah that is that is that is my family that is my larger family. Um I left the institution because at the end of the day I had to I didn't leave it in 2020. I left it in 2021, but security was moved in 20 removed in 2020.
Speaking of your family, your father is ill with cancer. Will you continue to visit him alone without the family? Where does this leave things moving forward, the ability of your children to see their grandfather?
Um, you know, life life is a precious thing. Um, and I'm acutely aware of the fragility of that. Um I I can I I can only come to the UK safely if I'm invited. Um and you know there is a a lot of um control and ability in uh in my father's hands. Ultimately this this this whole thing could be resolved uh through through him. um not necessarily by intervening but by stepping aside allowing the experts to do what is necessary and to carry out an RMB. That said um there is this was this all this all uh was initiated under a previous government and there is now a new government. Um, I have had it described to me once people knew about the facts that this uh is an oldfashioned a good oldfashioned uh establishment stitchup and that's what it feels like.
So should Kirst step in?
Um, I think that you know based on the judgment that that the court has put out today, it clearly states that RAVC aren't constrained by law. Again, I wish somebody had said that from the beginning. If they're not constrained by law, then this decision was made by the royal prerogative, which means that on national security matters, my case, which the other side have used national security um exclusions and excuses to withhold certain information for me, restrict me from being able to speak about certain things to to the public, that this national security matter is not bound by any law, and that REVC can abandon the very processes is the very expert processes that exist to protect individuals and the people around them as well as the decision makers themselves from liability if anything should happen. So you know I would ask yes I would ask the prime minister to step in. I would ask um I bet Cooper the home secretary to look at this very very carefully and I would ask her to review RACK um and its members because if it is a if it is an expert body then what is the royal household's role there if it isn't to influence and decide um what they want for the members of their household
Do you want the court battle to continue? Do you want to try to see this get to the Supreme Court?
I don't want any battles to continue. Um there is way too much suffering and way too much conflict in the world. This at the heart of it is a family dispute and it makes me really really sad that we're sitting here today 5 years later where a decision that was made most likely in fact I know to keep us under the roof. Um but then once we realized that that wasn't going to work once we once they realized that you know myself my wife and our kids are are happier outside of the institution then please just look at the facts look at the risks look at the threat look at the impact that if anything was to happen to me my wife or my father's grandchildren if anything was to happen to them look where the resp responsibility lies you know so you know there's there's there's there's a duty of care that has been completely thrown out the window. Um, and that doesn't feel great. Um, you know, whether whether we agree or disagree and there's a lot that we agree on, there's a lot that we disagree on. But that aside, where is the where is the duty of care? Because, as I said, life is precious. And it is very clear that from 2020 because I was no longer allowed an official role and because I decided to remove myself eventually from the institution that my life got devalued from the highest score to the lowest score overnight.
And how does that make you feel given you have expressed numerous times that you do not want history to repeat itself?
Um, yeah. I I I I don't want history to repeat itself. I think there's a lot of other people out there, the majority, that also don't want history to repeat itself. Um, through the disclosure process, I've discovered that some people want history to repeat itself, which is pretty dark. Um, that's quite a statement. Who Who do you think that is? I I'm not I'm not going to share at this point. You know, I know all the names of the people that were involved in this process. And again, you know, you have to question why wasn't I put through the same riskmanagement board that everybody else was put through, including members of my family.
And you reject because you're not no longer a working royal. Sorry. And you reject that it has nothing to do with the fact that you're no longer a working royal.
Whether I have an official role or not is irrelevant to the security that the security needs that that that I would need. Let me let me hang Let me let me rephrase that. Whether I have an official role or not is irrelevant to the threats, risks, and impact on my on on the reputation of of the UK if something was to happen. And again, that is proven by all of the all of the examples that exist out there. So for me having an official role was conditional in keeping security. But for everybody else, people who have chosen this life to enter into public office and then leave get it for life regardless of whether they have risk or threat to their name. And by the way, I agree with that. I think that is absolutely the right thing to do. that if you come in and you serve your country, even if it's a minimum of four years, that you get the protection that you require because of your public service. I've was born into this position. It wasn't a choice. I've served my country for 35 years. I believe that I am still continuing to serve my country. Public service is my life. That is the dedication that will never change. Um and then all the other bits and pieces that are added to that. Um you know there are very very real threats that exist out there. Some that are known about, some that have been withheld and for people in power and responsibility of decisions to know that those threats and risks exist, but to turn around and say, "Well, because you don't have an official role, your life doesn't actually matter anymore." Well, you can imagine how I feel about that, but you can also imagine, not even imagine that is the most illogical argument in the history of arguments.
And and finally, just because you mentioned, you know, your connection to your country, your public service, after this years'sl long battle, do you think your relationship has changed with the UK? Do you feel let down by your country?
Um, that's a big question. Um, at this point I'm feeling very let down. Um, you know, there are it's the it's the minority of people, um, especially those that read the tabloids and the press themselves. The press themselves have incited so much hatred towards myself, my wife, and even our children. Um, that that's quite that's that's that's hard to forgive. Um, you know, there there are decisions that have been made. There are things that have happened since 2016, especially throughout my whole life, but let's just stick since 2016. There are things that have happened that I can now forgive. I have moved past that. I can forgive my family's involvement, my father's, my brother, and uh my stepmother. I can forgive I can forgive the press to a large extent as well for so many things that have happened. What I'm struggling to forgive and what I will probably always struggle to forgive um is that a decision that was made in 2020 that affects my every single day and that is knowingly putting me and my family in harm's way. Everybody knew that it was being they were putting us at risk in 2020 and they hoped that me knowing that risk would force us to come back. But then when you realize that that didn't work, do you not want do you not do you not want want to just keep us safe? Whether you're the government, whether you're the raw household, whether you're my dad, my family, despite all of our differences, do you not want to just ensure our safety? And I, you know, again, I would I would I am I'm calling for, you know, um the home secretary and the government to do a re review of RAVC. And I'm also asking for an R&B assessment that I haven't received since 2019.
Just because you spoke there about forgiveness. It sounds like the last step to repairing relations with your family is the security issue by what you said there.
100%. I you know I whatever whatever noise has been created, whatever stories have been written, this is this has always been the sticking point. And you know, put yourself in my shoes. If you if you step back to create try to create a different role, the same official role, but a different uh working relationship with the institution that you were born into for the sake of your wife and your own mental health and your child. Um, which now of course a lot more has come out because I felt as though it needed to come out. The other side of the story needed to be told. God forbid anything should happen. Um, and I don't regret that at all. Um, but 2020 when that decision happened, I couldn't believe it. I actually couldn't believe it. I thought with all the disagreements and all of the chaos that's happening, the one thing that I could rely on is my family keeping me safe. And not only did they decide to remove my security in the UK, but they also signaled to every single government around the world not to protect us.
How are you feeling about this decision? Because clearly you have two children, Archie, Lilyette. They're not able to see their grandfather, their uncle, their cousins in a way that you feel is safe for them. So, what's your feelings kind of moving forward? Is there any way that this could be resolved?
Um the only I mean firstly I yeah you know I I'm I'm I'm devastated um not so much as devastated as the with the loss that I am about the people behind the decision um feeling as though this is okay you know I don't is it a win for them is it a win that you know that I don't get the protection that the threats and risks and impact fact say that I should um I would hope they wouldn't consider it a win and I'm sure there's some people out there probably most most likely the people that wish me harm consider this a huge win. Um but you know I've this is there are there have been so many uh disagreements differences between me and uh some of my family. Um this current situation that has been on now ongoing for five years with regard to um human life and safety is the sticking point. it is the only thing that's left. Um, of course some members of my family will never forgive me for writing a book. Um, of course they will never forgive me for lots of things. Um, but you know there is I would I would I would love I would love reconciliation with my family. I've always I've you know there's no point in in in continuing to fight anymore. As I said, life is precious. Um I don't know how much longer my father has. Um you know he uh he he won't speak to me because of this security stuff. Um but it would be nice to it would nice it would be nice to rec reconcile as I learned through uh through the first nations throughout uh Canada because of the invictus games their uh their goal in life was always truth and reconciliation. And I turned around to them in many conversations. I said, "Right, but reconciliation can't come without truth." Well, I've now found out the truth. Um, I've shared some of it with you today. A lot of it exists out there, whether people choose to ignore it or not. Um, you know, so it would be nice to have that reconciliation part now. Um, if they don't want that, that's entirely up to them.
And now that this court battle is over, do you feel you will be able to approach your father and speak about some of those issues?
I mean, if if if No, I think I don't think you would ever want to talk about it. I think he would just push it aside and and the you know, the argument will continue to be this is a government decision. It may well be a government decision. Um, but how did they reach that decision? You know when the rabbit chair the first place that they went to was the was the palace to understand what it is that the royal household or what the royal family want for me. I have never ever been allowed or uh offered to make my own representations not in 2020 and not for the last 5 years. And the new RAV chair continues to avoid answering some very specific questions that I have. And one of your previous questions that I think is really important is this case by case basis. For me and only me, there has to be a royal obligation in order to receive protection on UK soil. And I think that speaks volumes. Thank