Transcription
Welcome to What's the Big Idea? Joe Hudson. Pleasure to be here, man. Man, I'm really excited to have this conversation. And one of my favorite aspects of your work is this idea of, uh, following our enjoyment. Yeah. And so when it comes to conversations like this, of which you're doing a lot these days, what helps you to maximize your enjoyment?
Oh, that's a great question. Um, wow. I was not expecting that question. That's great. Uh, so mostly it's, uh, a feeling of connection, both with myself and with the person who I'm speaking to. If I don't feel connected, which is a rare thing, but then, then something needs to be done to address and create the connection. So that, that is like an imperative for my enjoyment. If I don't feel connected, I'm not enjoying things. The other thing is, I like, I love interesting conversations. Is I love making sure that, like, a conversation doesn't go exactly where it's expected to go, that it's not standard. That also is exciting for me. I love meeting new people. So, it, it's a, this is like podcasting and talking to people is one of the easiest things for me to enjoy. So, it's, it's not too much of a challenge.
So, you talk about that connection really being kind of like that anchor. Yeah. How do you create that or how do you do that?
Well, if you do an experiment, like right now, if you're listening to this, or you right now, and and I just asked the question, "How do you become 10% more connected?" Looking in your eyes was like one, like you're holding, like eye contact, and I was like, "Oh, that feels nice." Like, "Let's do that." Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Uh, feeling into my body, feeling into my internal experience would be another way that I like. If I just think about, like, 10%. But what I noticed is, if I can say that to anybody. Yeah. And everybody has the ability to just actually become 10% more connected in this moment. And so, so that's the, the interesting thing is that we, you get a lot of questions in my business about, like, "How do I feel?" or "How do I get more connected?" Yeah. And I often try not to answer the question, instead ask that the question, like I did with you, or some question like that, because everybody actually has access. It's a, it's our human, it's our human right to know how to be, how to enjoy ourselves 10% more, or how to connect 10% more. And as soon as you realize that, then you realize, "Oh, this is a choice I get to make any time." Yeah. Very cool. So, I just invite the listeners to the podcast of, like, as you're taking this in, how could you connect 10% more to Joe and I? And just like, considering what comes up for you? Yeah. And I love that. We'll talk more about it, but that idea of framing it as an experiment of just like, "Try it on." Yeah. Right? Like, embodied wisdom versus a thought or an idea. Yeah. And I would say that there's going to be a percentage of the viewers who, or listeners who are, will have resistance with the idea of connecting with us 10% more, just because of, you know, avoiding attachment issues. So I would say, if that doesn't appeal to you, then just connect with yourself 10% more in this. Because the reality is, my ability to connect with you doesn't really, doesn't require you at all. You could be yelling at me, and I can feel fully connected with you. You could be happy with me, I could feel fully connected with you. Yeah.
So, you, you talked about one aspect of connection being that checking in with your, like, internal state. Yeah. If you were to make that real for the people who are watching this, like, Yeah. What does that sound like if you were to do that in this moment? Like, what's going on for you internally?
Oh, wow. This is such a hard thing to put words to. Um, so in this moment, what's happening in my, in, so there's, there's come, there's two things that I think about, and then I'll, and then I'll do it. There's two things that I think about. If you're looking to calm the nervous system, then feeling the external part of your experience, meaning from your skin outward, that really can calm your nervous system. If you go into the internal experience, it can actually, um, make regulation of the nervous system hard, depending on what you're feeling. Sometimes it's very calming, and sometimes it can actually throw somebody. Yeah. And so if you're looking to make great decisions, if you are in a place where you feel compromised, yeah, then going to the external experience, coming to your senses, like, "What am I looking? How am I hearing?" going outward actually really calms. Because what's happening there is that trauma is us going back into the past, right? So if a guy is in Fallujah and experienced a whole bunch of trauma there, and then he's in Ohio and a car backfires, he's not in Ohio anymore. He's back in Fallujah, right? And that's the same thing that happens to us when we're not regulated. And so coming to your senses puts you in the present. The internal experience, however, could still be Fallujah. And so that might actually change your regulation in the in the opposite direction. So, so I just say that for anybody who's, who's thinking about connection, because sometimes it's much easier to find connection through coming to your senses externally than it is internally. Than, yeah, it is a proprioception thing. For my experience in this moment, if I'm in touch with my body, there's always, um, I think it was Loen who said this, but, um, there's always a movement of sensation in the body. And so if I'm paying attention to the movement of sensation in my body, that's his definition of pleasure. And I find that to be really true. If I'm just paying attention to how sensation in my body is moving right now, it's just, I, I, I noticed as you were saying that, I did it, and I just started to smile. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that, too. Very cool, man. Yeah.
So, so which is, I think, a really critical thing, because if you're, if you're trying to heal your system, right? There's three heals, heels, maybe not the right word, but we'll use it for now. Um, there's the head, and the heart, and the gut. So, I think about it as three different brains, um, or three different modalities of of transformation. So, the head is the human brain. It is the prefrontal cortex. It's our thought. Yeah. The heart is the emotional, um, it's the mammalian. It is what moves us. It's what makes our decisions. And neurologically speaking, it's what makes our decisions. And then the nervous system is the, is the reptilian brain. And so if you're going to have transformation, you need to actually address all three of those things. And the nervous system part of it, pleasure is the antidote. M. So, if you're, the more you can actually be in pleasure in life, then the more that healing is possible, or transformation is possible. Because typically what's happening is the negative self-talk in our head is constantly attacking us, and the nervous system is constantly waiting for the fight. And so it's like jolting around. And so the pleasure actually lets the, the system know that it's safe. And when we feel safe, we learn better. Totally. We transform more. So, it's, it's not just like a party trick. It's actually really an important part of the healing process. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, today I'm excited to focus on decision-making. Oh, cool. And how to make great decisions. Okay. But I asked you that question about, like, what is something that you do that makes conversations like this enjoyable? Yeah. And, um, Mihi Chicket Mihi, author of Flow, has this great idea of, like, uh, a clear goal loosely held. Yeah. Right? Of like, so to get there and like, so that people walk away from this episode with, like, a clear framework of just like, "How do we make great decisions? What gets in the way?" Yeah. Um, but I'd love to start by just understanding, what have been maybe one of the best decisions you've ever made, and what's been one of the hardest decisions you've ever made?
Best decision I ever made was marrying my wife. Like, bar none. What's her name? Terra. Cool. Yeah. How long have you been together? 26 years. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And followed by having, uh, kids, which is actually, if she hears this, she'll, she'll smile and probably cry at the same time. But the hardest decision was not having a third kid. That, the recognition that I wasn't going to be able to do that and be the husband or the father that I wanted to be, when she very much wanted a third kid. And that was, that was a challenge.
I have, I have goosebumps over my whole body because that's, uh, that is probably one of the biggest decisions of my life that I haven't made. Having a kid. Having a third kid. Oh, having a third kid. Like, honestly, I almost feel like I'm crying right now because I hadn't, I thought I was, I knew I wanted to ask you that question. Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking about what that would be for me, and the answer that I came up with in my mind of what is like the decision I haven't made yet. Yeah. Wasn't that one, but actually whether or not I want to have a third kid, and my partner does want to have a third kid. And I've been very clear that I don't want to have a third kid, but now I kind of do want to have a third kid. And so I'm like, very much in that question. So, yeah, how did you make that decision?
Oh, so, so luckily, when the third kid decision came, I, I w So, I... Let's do, let's make a semantic difference. It's going to be arbitrary, but we'll make a semantic difference. A choice is something that you and I have made a thousand of in this conversation already, or a hundred of. What, what words am I going to say right now? These are all choices, but they're not decisions. Yeah. Because I'm not deliberating. It's just occurring. So, um, if you're making a decision, it means you're already in fear. Means there's already something that, there's something that you're scared will or won't happen. Sure. And so I was lucky enough that when it came to the third kid, I just never had a "yes." Um, so it was hard for me because I, like, I want my wife to be happy and, and have everything she wants in life. Like, like that's the nature. Yeah. I also don't want to, I'm not responsible for her happiness. That would be the death of our marriage if I felt that way. So, so, but it was just always very clear, like, "Oh, I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to to be the dad and the husband that I want to be with more, with more weight." And, and that was partic, in a very much a particularly time and place for us, because it was, um, you know, I was in my venture capital career. I was the only person supporting the family. Yeah. You know, there was already a lot of tension in the, just the way of life. And so, so I, yeah, it's like I was too overwhelmed to do it in the way that I could. So, now today, if, like, my situation was, it is as it is now, I would probably be like, "Yeah, let's have a third kid because that sounds super fun." Yeah. But I'm, I'm in a different place now. Yeah.
And I'm curious, um, did she want a third kid?
Oh, yeah. Not just, not want, like, really wanted. Yeah. Like, never seen her fight for something as much. Yeah.
Well, you know, maybe that's a, a cool touch point to talk about, like, being comfortable making a decision that upsets someone else. Yeah. And our aversion to that. Yeah. Could you say a little more about, like, how important that aspect of making good decisions is, is like the willingness to, like, upset someone or?
Yeah. So typically, the way I would say it is that, so the way the brain works that we know, and that if you want to geek out on it, there's a book called "Descartes' Error" by a neuroscientist, I think it was like way back 2008 or 2012 or something. And, um, and what it says is that we make emotional decisions. So, if I went inside of your brain and I turned off your emotional center of your brain, your IQ would be the same, but it would take you hour or two to decide where to have lunch or what color pen to use. And so, we know that that's what we do. And, and you can think about it, it's hard sometimes for people to gro. So, just think about how many decisions you've made to be happy, or to not feel like a failure, or to impress somebody, or, you know, that we, we're making all of our decisions that way. Yeah. And so, you're not really actually worried about, uh, offending somebody. What's actually happening, or making somebody pissed, is what you're actually worried about is the emotional experience of that. Right? So, if I said to you, like, most high achievers, they say at some point, they're worried, like, "It's all going to go to hell and I'm going to be homeless," right? But if I said to them, "I guarantee," and they believe me, "I guarantee you that you're going to be happier than you've ever been. It's going to be the best time of your life being homeless. It's going to be amazing, and you're going to feel so much love and connection for the whole world, and you're going to have these great relationships." Is homeless that scary? M. So, the, the, the scary is the emotional experience that we are projecting into the future. And so the problem with that is that the emotional experience that we're avoiding is the one that we're inviting in the exact way we're avoiding it. So, if I don't want to be, um, if I don't want to feel abandoned, this is my personal story. So, in my 20s, I didn't want to feel abandoned. Yeah. And, um, what happened was, every time I started to feel abandoned, I would either get really hard. Yeah. Like, "Fine, then. [ __ ] off." Or I would get needy. "What, what can I do?" Both make people abandon me. Yeah. And so nobody wants to be around, not very many people want to be around a needy person or an [ __ ]. And I was going to be one or the other. And, um, and so I would create the abandonment in the exact way I was trying to avoid it. Yeah. And so, so if you're trying to avoid that experience by not speaking your truth, you're inviting the exact thing that you don't want. Yeah. Also, you're not being yourself. So you can't create a world that, that's meant for you. Right? So, if I go out into the world and I'm like, "I'm gonna speak my truth. I'm gonna be myself." And the people who like me, like me. They don't like the thing I'm trying to pretend to be. The world that I create is created for me. The things that I'm choosing to do and that are, are choosing to invite me, are things that are inviting me, not the person I'm trying to be. So, if you're not making a decision because you're scared of hurting somebody, or scared of them getting mad, or scared that you're going to break them, or whatever that is, you're basically creating a world for somebody that you have to pretend to be. Yeah. And that, there's, there's no recipe for happiness for that. Totally.
And so, where that naturally leads me is, if we are not making a decision to avoid something, how do we shift into the mindset of making a decision for something?
Oh, fascinating. I don't ever think about it's not exactly how my system works as far as like, "How do I?" It's interesting. So, I have goals, and in general, I achieve those goals, but I set the, it's like almost a set and forget for me on the goals. For me, it's much more about living by principle. Yeah. And if I live by principle, my life is better than any goal that I could even imagine is how it works. So, so I don't really say, "This is the world I want to see." There's some of that. There's a little bit of that. I'll set it, and I'll forget it. Like, I'll, like, "Oh, that's a cool idea." Yeah. But what happens is, life always provides something better than I could have imagined. Yeah. And the way that that works is because I live by a set of principles, and I make decisions by those principles. So, 80% of what I do is going to be a decision made by those principles. Occasionally, I have to wrestle with it a little bit, or see something, and then, then either my principles change, or I understand my principles more deeply, and more likely the second one.
And I love the semantics on this on this show. And so when you say principles, what do you mean?
So, principles are, are things, they're like values, except for you can take action on them. So, values often aren't actionable. And so, I would, I would, the distinction would be that principles, you can take action on. So, for instance, one of my principles, we've talked about already, is connection. So, connection, connection, connection is one of the principles that I would have. Yeah. And, um, and so what does that mean? It means if I'm thinking about how to market, yeah, I market, I, one of the, the Occam's razors I'm going to go through is, "How do I connect with my audience? How do I, how do I feel connected marketing?" Yeah. Uh, if I'm having a disgruntled employee, how do, how do we connect? If there's a meeting, we start off with connection. So, it's, it's, I'm going to do that all the way down. Yeah. And so, it, it helps me make a decision. It helps me sh, shows me where, what the next action to take is. And then I, I, I like to present this as there's five or seven, maybe tops, principles that you're living by. So, you should really be able to hone it down. Totally. And then, and when you look at those, you think, "Oh, if I live by those principles, actually might not be comfortable. I might have moments of, 'Oh, [ __ ], I might have moments of pucker,' you know, but I know that that's going to actually lead me to a great life. I know that that's going to give me the life that I want." Yeah. And so, that's how I think about principles, is that it's, it, it helps you take actions, and you know that if you live by them, and then all of a sudden, if you do have a decision, if you are in that moment of, "Do I do this or do I do that?" Yeah. There's a little bit of fear arising. You're acting by principles, not by trying to manage the situation or manage the outcome, because we can't manage the outcome. I could have a, let's say, let's say I wanted to sell you a car, and my whole livelihood is based on selling you a car. Yeah. Like, if you drank coffee that morning or didn't drink coffee that morning might be the difference between me selling you the car, no matter what I do, no matter how I show up. It's, it's going to be based on, like, your blood sugar, potentially. So, like, I don't have, I don't have actual control over the outcome. But I do have control over the way that I show up. And if I show up in a consistent way, then the outcome over time, it's like a portfolio of decisions. Yeah. Ends up in the right place.
So, two follow-up questions there, which is, uh, number one, what is your differentiation of values and principles, just to clarify?
Yeah. Um, values, I find, are often things that you can't make decisions by. So, for instance, a value would be, "Tell the truth," or "Be honest." It's like, yeah, it's not going to really help you make a decision. Yes. It's a good one, out of a hundred times when you're thinking about lying, you go, "Nah, I'm not going to lie because I'm going to be honest." Yeah. But that's not actually going to help you decide what car to buy. It's not going to help you decide who your investment advisor is going to be. It's not going to help you decide if you're going to fire the COO or not. Yeah. So, a value is like a way that you want to live, but it doesn't help you make the decisions. Yeah.
And then, if you were to define what a principle is, a principle is something that helps you to take aligned action.
Exactly. Yeah, that's a great way. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think, I think a corollary that I often think of with CEOs or founders is just that if you're aiming to build culture, one of the first things you would do is create company values. "How do we operate here? What are, what are the behaviors that we celebrate?" Yeah. But so often, if you just look at that on an individual basis, we don't have an answer to that question. Right. Yeah. So, I do the same thing, but I'll do it with principles, not with values. Yeah. Totally.
And so, and the way that we do it is, so typically the way, like, a value creation is done is some people sit around a table, they agree kind of on the values. There's some discussion, and then these are the values, and then they're put up and forgotten about, typically, like in a company. That's how it works. And the way that we'll do principles is, when I'm inside of a company, is we will, um, everybody, everybody will be asked the question, "What are the five things that if we do, we will be successful?" Yeah. And how do, and, and they should be able to decide, these five things should be able to decide 80% of the things that you deal with on a daily basis. And then everybody presents what they think they should be, and then the leader of the organization, they wrestle with it together, and then the leadership of the organization comes up with it. Yeah. And then that's given to the entire company, and they run experiments on each principle. They're like, "Oh, this week we are going to make decisions based on this principle," and then we're going to report, "Did it work or did it not work?" Yeah. And that lets people refine them and understand them better and be educated on them, or educate people on them. And then, and then when all that's done, then they go back and say, "Okay, maybe we need to change the principles a little bit." And then that, that kind of a process happens regularly, where there's a regularly wrestling with the principles. Yeah. Where people are experimenting with them, because that's the other thing is, values often, you know, it's like this thing in the background because they're not relevant to your everyday. Sure. And so then, when I'm in companies, often times people will like make special emojis for each of the principles, or it comes up in conversation. One of my CEOs that I work with, they have a principle called "Open the Drawer," which means, "We talk about [ __ ]." Yeah. And, um, and if you're in a meeting, it would be surprising not to hear somebody during every meeting go, "Let's open the drawer on that." Yeah. And so that's the other thing. And if you're working in principles, it's also really good to make them really catchy, like to have like good marketing in your principles. So, principles, you typically, because I think it's such a foundational concept that when you have principles, though, you talked about a value as like a, a statement. So, do you think of a, a good principle as typically it is a word, like a virtue, like connection? Or do principles ever have?
Oh, yeah. No, we have princip, like "Open the Drawer" was is a principle that they use. A principle that I have, "Everything is an iteration" is a principle that we use. Um, uh, "What are you curious about?" is a principle that we use. So, there's all sort, um, "Embrace Intensity" is a principle we use. So, it's, it's, it's named so that it's remembered. Yeah. And, and it inspires action. Yeah. And connection is just one of those things that does that. Connection. And it's not connection, it's connection. Connection. Connection. Cool. Yeah. So, what are your principles?
So, I just named, "Embrace Intensity," "Connection," "Connection," "Connection," "Everything is an iteration," "Loving Accountability," and "What are you curious about?" They change names from time to time, but generally that's what they are.
I have a, a fun experiment that I'll often do with people that I find is a, a more pragmatic touch point to tap into principles or values, whatever they are. But it's, if I were to ask someone, like, for anyone who's listening to this, think about the last time in your life where you were operating at, like, your absolute peak. Like, you were having the most fun, max enjoyment, max contribution. Yeah. And if you look at that moment in your life, yeah, I guarantee you that your values or your principles were being expressed, perhaps not all of them, but that if you just go back into that moment, that's so [ __ ] cool. Rather than kind of theor, like getting theoretical about, like, "What they could be." Yeah. You just look at, like, "Well, what was being expressed?" Yeah. In that moment, and you just see that any of those key moments, pivotal moments in your life, like your values were just being expressed. Right. Right. It's like a fun way to, yes.
I'm doing it in my mind. If you like, looked, I looked away and I like, did the process, and I think about all those moments, and I was connected, and I was embracing an intensity, and I was not trying to get it perfect. So I was, everything was an iteration. And there's a corollary, which is, if you look at the worst moments of your life, your values are often suppressed in those moments as well. And so it's like another way where it doesn't just have to be the peaks, but the valleys as well.
I'm checking it out. I'm just, it's, valleys are a long time ago. Um, but yeah, let me, yeah, that, that tracks. Oh, wow. That totally tracks. Cool. Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a really cool. I may, I use that? Of course. Absolutely. Peaks and peaks and valleys. Yeah. Cool. Love it. Absolutely. All right. So, we've talked about the aversion to things. We've talked about principles and values as a pathway to, uh, make better decisions. And then, you know, what I'd really love to touch on here is just to get your take on a little more deeply, like, what is the, the value of emotions and developing a more fluid relationship with the emotions. Yeah. To make clearer, kind of, more honest decisions. Yeah.
So, we have a course called "The Great Decisions Course," and one of the things that, what people don't understand, they're like, "I, I think I read this testimony once where they were like, 'I came in expecting to make better decisions, and what I got was emotional clarity,' and that makes great decisions." So, if you think about that thing I was saying about all of our decisions are emotional. Sure. It means that we are, um, making decisions to feel some way, or to not feel. We think we're making a logical decision, but the logic is all constructed instead of to build a bridge to feel a certain way. Right? I've used all this logic to construct a bridge. I've used all this logic to construct that I feel like a winner, or whatever the thing I want to feel like is, or not feel like is. And so, if you love all the emotions, yeah, then you make really clear decisions. If you're like, "I, I have no problem feeling like a failure. I have no problem. I love feeling like a failure. I love feeling angry. I love feeling sad." If you actually have that deep embrace of all those emotions, where it's like, "I'm not avoiding any of this stuff. That all this stuff is totally, uh, valuable and and teaches me and I learn and, and actually is, is just another sensation moving through my body that I can find pleasure in." Then, then you're like, your emotions, your decisions are super clear. Just super clear.
So, then let's just double-click on that. Like, how do you start to welcome all of your emotions and even enjoy them?
Yeah. So, there's a couple, there's, there's a lot of steps actually to get there. And so, jumping, I'll just say this for anybody who's listening. Jumping to just try to love them often won't work. Sure. So, it's a polyannish. We've all met that kid in college who's like, "Everything's great! Oh, it's wonderful! Oh, it's good!" Yes. Exact. So, that won't work. Um, the f, the first step typically is to understand that if you have an emotion that you feel like is oppressing you, that it's really hard to welcome or love it. So, that's, so you have to get out of that relationship. That's one of the things to do. Um, the second thing to do is get really curious about the emotion. So, typically, we have an emotion. Can I, can I actually invite you to, to go back on step one and take a little more time there? Yeah. Of because I think that for me, I think that, you know, shifting that ecology with the emotions of like thinking that it's damaging us or it's against us is like so big for me. And so I'm curious, like, could you say more about how you start to identify the true intention of emotion or purpose, like shift that kind of relationship where that happens eventually? But the first step is just to understand that it can't oppress you. Like, it, it's to dominate the emotion. It's like, get really angry at it. It's just to, to see that you have choice, that you're not actually oppressed. So, for instance, this happens for a lot of the people that we work with, is they were told that they couldn't get angry. Yeah. As an example. So, either they told themselves that because they had like a violent parent, or an emotionally abusive parent, or they, all the love was removed from them when they got angry. Um, and so they went to a whole bunch of things, but what they can't do is get angry. Yeah. And they feel like when they have that anger, they've done something wrong. Um, that they, they feel ashamed of it. And if they can just basically see, "Oh, anger is not an oppressor. Anger, that anger is actually care and love." And I might have to get really pissed to do that. And usually, anger is a great way to see that something's not oppressing you is to dominate it, just one, one time, and then you, "Oh, okay." Because if, so, for instance, if you look at Gandhi, Gandhi couldn't treat the British Empire the way he treated it if he actually thought that they could oppress him. You can't love something that you feel like oppresses you. It's really, really difficult. Yeah. So, that's the first stage. And then you don't have to worry about the wisdom of it, because that just shows up. The second stage is just a deep curiosity of it. Yeah. So, typically, this emotion rises, and I don't want to feel it, so I jump on my phone. Yeah. This emotion arises, I don't want to feel it, so I get angry at somebody. Whatever that my reaction is. But if I ask somebody, "That thing that you're avoiding, where is it in your body? Yeah. What color is it? How does it move? Where is it densest in your body?" And, and we know now that you can take heat, like heat pictures of people with emotional experiences, and they have different heat maps for different interesting emotions. So, we, we, we get sensations in our body. So, it's to get really curious about the emotions. So, if, like, think about it like a little kid picking up a frog and going, "What, what's going on with this frog?" and smelling it, and, you know, and then like watching it. It's like, nobody does that with their emotional experience. It's just like, "I want it," or "I want it gone." But nobody, nobody's ever like, "What is that thing actually?" And so, that, that is another step. And then another step is, "Oh, play experiments with it." Well, so, if I'm, if I tell this emotion to go away, how does it react? If I tell this emotion, uh, if I sing show tunes to this emotion, how does it react? If I distract this emotion, how does it react? If I hug this emotion, how does it react? If I, And so you just run some experiments, and then that actually teaches you, because at some point you realize that the emotion, if you react to it in a loving, welcoming way, the emotion changes. That, the, the discomfort of so many emotions, if not all of them, is the resistance to them, not the emotion themselves. It's like going to the bathroom. Going to the bathroom is not uncomfortable. Resist it. It's really, really uncomfortable. And that's similar with an emotional experience. Yeah. And then after that, then you start to see the wisdom of what the emotion's actually doing. "Oh, when I'm angry like that, I need to draw a boundary." That's what it's telling me. Yeah. "Oh, when I'm that anxious, it's telling me that there's a way I'm not taking care of myself." Or, "Tell it's telling me I'm actually really [ __ ] excited, and I am not allowing myself to feel that excitement." Right. So, and then you, that all becomes apparent later. But emotions, trying to get the mind involved in the emotional, the only thing that you need to convince the mind of in, in an emotional experience is to just shut the [ __ ] up. Because the mind trying to understand it is the opposite of feeling it. Yeah. The mind deciding what's a good emotion, what's a bad emotion, or when to have the emotion, or when not, like that, all really gets in the way. Your body is the thing that knows emotional experience. And so,
I'm curious as an access point to start to run experiments. So, my exposure to somatic work was really kind of natural, just through sitting in men's groups and just getting weird. "What do you feel in your body?" and "Let's give it a voice," and "You know, scream it into a pillow," like, whatever, and kind of figuring out what seemed to resonate. And so I'm curious for you, do you dabble in like parts work, or like, what, what's the most efficient way to connect with an emotion and start to run those types of experiments of like, "What does it do when I listen to it, or hug it, or all those different things?"
We have a thing we give it out for free on our website called "Emotional Inquiry," and there's a, we have a podcast on it, and that's the most accessible, easy-to-use tool. Yeah. So, we'll use that. Um, and anybody can download it. It's just like this quick visualization, the 10-minute visualization. Uh, oftentimes, and the other thing that's really, really useful is expression. So, when we're doing "The Great Decisions Course," there's places where we get to express it, where people get to express the emotion, and then there's emotional inquiry that they're actually doing every day.
What would be, what would be some of your favorite questions in emotional inquiry?
Um, yeah. "Where is the, where does the emotion, the sensation of the emotion end and you begin?" Well, hold on. Let me. "What is it? What does the sensation look like if you're from the, if you're in the inside of the emotion? Instead of looking at it from the outside, what is it to step into the center of it and look out?" I feel weird things in my body. Yeah. Considering that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it, it's creating both space and depersonalization on the emotion, but it's also creating deeper connection with the emotion.
Can you keep going actually, if you're open to it? Like, I'm, I'm, I'm loving the questions. Yeah.
Uh, well, you're, you're semantically fluid. So, me doing it quickly will work for you, but my fear would be that the most people in the audience, they couldn't process it as quickly as I would throw down. But I'll just do a couple, three more. Um, "What color is it?" is a great one. Uh, "Where is it densest in your body?" is a great one. Um, "How, how is it moving?" It's, they're all moving. Even at the most dense part of an emotional experience, there's movement. And is that like a vibration, or is that a, like, what's the movement of the, and how does the movement differ from the center of the emotion to the edge of the emotional experience?
Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It just begets curiosity. Yeah. Exactly. Wonder, even. Yeah.
Someone once said to me in a sauna, they said, "It's very difficult to be afraid and curious at the same time."
Oh, it's impossible. It is impossible to have wonder. You can be curious and scared, but there's this great experiment that we do where, and so you can just do it, like, close your eyes for a minute and imagine you're running from a tiger. Yeah. You're in India, and it's coming after you, and you can feel the, it's landing on the ground, and you can hear it's, it's snorting, and it's coming up, and it's getting closer, and it's getting, and you're just, "Oh my God." And now, "Wonder, how much does it weigh?" You just totally can't do it. Yeah. Wow. And that's why "What are you curious about?" is one of our principles. Yeah. Because if you are in wonder, if you're not in the knowing, if you're in the not knowing of something, your heart opens. Fear can't exist in, in wonder. Fear can't exist in wonder.
And you said something there as well about resistance, which is another kind of touch point that just brings me into a place of curiosity, is this idea that, like, often times what I, and what I think a lot of people experience as an emotional experience is more so the resistance. Yes. To the emotion. Yeah. Yeah. And when I ask myself there is, "Am I feeling shame? Am I feeling fear? Or am I feeling the resistance to feeling that thing?" Yeah. And almost always, it's more so the resistance to doing it. Yeah. And that's cool. Yeah. And then when I get curious, it's great. And so you talked about wonder, and so like, maybe it's a good time to think about VIEW, because I think it's, it's such a helpful framework. And so I'd love if you could introduce that, that framework, and how you use it to kind of evaluate situations.
Yeah. So, um, so what I would say is that VIEW, if you're, if we use it as a, for, for the most part, for how to communicate with, um, with people most effectively. Yeah. And it's because it creates a deep sense of connection in yourself and in the other person. And the acronym says V is for Vulnerability. Yeah. I is for Impartiality. E is for Empathy. W is for Wonder. And we have strange definitions potentially for them, or not what normally people would call them. So, vulnerability for us is saying the scary thing that's true to you. That's you. That's vulnerability. It's not weakness. It's, "Oh, there, there's my truth, and it makes me pucker a little bit to think about saying it. I'm going to say that thing." That's vulnerability. It's asking the challenging question. Yeah. Uh, impartiality means that I, I'm not trying to get you anywhere. I'm, I am following your river. I'm not trying to, like, damn your river or move. I'm not trying to get an outcome in this conversation with you. I'm, I'm exploring your world. Um, empathy means being with somebody in their emotional state, but not being in somebody in their emotional state. So, if you're angry at your wife, I'm not like, "Yeah, I'm angry at your wife, too." It is, "Oh, yeah, I'm totally happy to be here with your anger at your wife, or at me." Like, that's, that's fantastic. Let's do that. Um, and then wonder is curiosity without looking for an answer. Yeah.
Let's double-click on wonder for a moment. But I think that as we're talking about decisions again, like each of these as in a way just again, principles of how to evaluate kind of like our decisions, what it is that we want. Um, so wonder. Could you say a little more about how to tap into that state effectively? Because I think about it again, of oftentimes what you talked about is like fundamentally a decision requires like discernment, deliberation. There's a perception of a loss or threat on one side of the equation. And so I'd love to hear like, how you bring wonder in when there's potential threat.
Yeah. Yeah. So, luckily, most of our potential threats are slow-moving. So, like, you know, so there's time, which is good. But, um, a really cool little experiment that we can do is, um, pick, and it'll help you experience the wonder. It'll help the audience experience the wonder. Great. Um, pick, uh, something that, if, if you feel comfortable, pick something that you're wrestling with right now, and state it in a question that's a "how" or "what" question. Maybe like having a third kid. Yeah. The third qu, the third kid is very alive right now. So, I'd say it's like, um, "Do I want to have a..." Has to be a "how" or "what" question, 'cause closed-ended questions aren't...
I got it. I'm wondering. "How can I maintain the abundance and freedom that I desire while also having a third child?" Yeah. What?
And so, all we're going to do is just ask questions back and forth. Sure. And they're all going to be "how" or "what" questions. Yeah. Um, uh, "How what makes it that you don't ask, 'How a third child can make you more free and more abundant?'"
Patterned scarcity.
No, no answer. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So, we're in wonder. The machines were not looking for the answer. Great. Yeah. So, how does asking myself...
Could you repeat what you said?
Yeah. I said, uh, "What makes it that you don't ask the question, 'How can a third child make me more free and more abundant?'"
Yeah. So, "How could having a third child make me more free and more abundant?" How, what's the freedom that's found in choicelessness? What is the freedom that's choicelessness?
And is so, what you're doing right now that is wonder. Your brain is like, I call it the 404. Your brain's like, it's the same feeling you get when you're watching a sunset, or you're in awe. There's like an awe in...
Yeah. I mean, I think that what it's pointing to again is just that, like, the mind is just naturally programmed to detect threats versus, like, be in that space. So, it's like, even where I was like, "I don't have anything to say," and I was like, "Oh, like, good." Like, that's where you're supposed to be, right? Is actually just scanning for, like, the, "What does the upside look like?" Yeah. And like, the, for me, it always shows up is, like, "Do you remember, like, old-school computer games like Myst and stuff like that, where you like, you'd be on the corner of the map, but the map only goes so far?" Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to walk to the end, and then, like, the map gets bigger. You know what I mean? And so, it's like, for me, like, that kind of wonder is like, just doing that. It's like, "I'm at the edge of the map." Yeah. And I just, like, being in there in the unknown is kind of...
Most problems are a context problem. Meaning that you, you know, you're, you're believing in a context. You're believing in a set of assumptions. Yeah. And wonder allows you to question the assumption. Yeah. Oh, wait. What, what even makes it that one more kid is less free, less abundant, or, or, uh, what, what is more free than a two-year-old? Yeah. Like, how could you not learn about freedom by having a two-year-old in your... Totally. You know? So, there, so there's this, yeah, there's a fear that's creating a dichotomy, and wonder shifts that. Yeah.
I, I love that idea of, one of my mentors is, I imagine you know Diana Chapman. Oh, yeah. CLG. And so, like, their whole thing is that idea of like, most of our suffering or problems are not content issues of like, something that was said or something that's happening. Yeah. It's all context. How you're thinking and relating to the thing that has happened or is happening. Yeah. And I so often find that that's true. Yeah. That's, that's the intellectual side of it. But the emotional side is, "Oh, I'm actually, the heart of it is, I'm actually moving into wonder," that sense of awe. Yeah. With it. And so, you can do the first one all intellectually, but without the awe, it's very much less powerful, because the transformations only happen in one of your brains. Yeah.
So, one of the reasons that I was so excited to, to speak with you is I really...
Do you think that you're a powerful force in the world right now? Where I would say, like, two of the most visible kind of models of success and achievement in the world would be like Elon Musk and Donald Trump. Yeah. Like, they have achieved at the highest levels. Yeah. And they also model, uh, kind of like a mode of communication of leadership that, you know, has a lot of downside and it's like quite, like vitriolic. And, and I think that what I see in your work is just that you really showcase what a more soulful, thoughtful, aligned approach to achieving at the highest levels looks like. And, like, you know, there was this extreme recently of Sam Altman talking about like you working with him directly and his entire team at OpenAI. And so, what I'd love to really focus on is like, how do you, this process that we're going through right now, like, it has a cadence even right here, which to me feels like really smooth and slow. Yeah. And I think about achievers at the highest level who are just operating with this degree of like urgency all the time, it seems. And again, like, so many of us just convince ourselves that this is what is required to change the world, to operate at that level. And so, I'm just curious, like, how do you, how do you make the argument that, again, like, this form of, in a way, like slowing down and going in, is like a tactical imperative and a benefit for peak performance? Yeah.
So, the, the first thing I'd say is, like, like on the Donald Trump and Elon Musk thing, I think there's a way of thinking that doesn't serve us. And, and it's, I, I, I'll make it like a forest fire. Right. So, for 100 years, people thought forest fires were bad. That's really screwing with us right now. If you live in California, or apparently North Carolina, like, it's really, or is it South Carolina? One of them's burning right now. Um, or Oregon, or, you know, because we've been stopping these forest fires for an extended period of time. It's the same thing. And we said, that's bad. And so we stopped it. And then that creates an imbalance. We've also said, like, the angry person is bad, but, but the passive, but the victim is good, as if they're not in a, because I know if you know Diane Chapman's, you know about the drama triangle. And so, so we have this tendency to say, oh, this thing that is, is bad because it makes us more uncomfortable than this other thing. That's generally how we do it. And so, I don't see, um, Elon Musk or Trump as bad. I just see it as a forest fire. I see like, oh, the underbrush is thick, and this is apparently the thing that needed to happen.
Do you see it as ethical leadership? I don't. I'm not, I'm not a huge, I'm not, I'm not a huge fan of the word ethics. Mmm. Um, do I think that, um, there is a great amount of, uh, like peace, joy, or, and, uh, contentment in them? No, I don't think that that's, that's the truth. Um, ethics, I don't know. Ethics again, puts me in this place of right or wrong. Do I think that, but, but the mo, the more important part for me in this is that just that the calling, like saying one thing is good or one thing is bad, or ego, like ego is bad. Not that doesn't ever help me solve a problem. So, I'll just start with that. And then, why is it an imperative? I would say it's not an imperative for, for performance. Meaning that you can perform at the highest level. There's evidence without any of this. I don't think you can have a life you want. Yeah. And, and I do think performance is easier with it. Yeah. So, the people who I see who get their success without introspection, without understanding themselves, without the emotions, they have to use a lot more fuel. The fuel is a lot dirtier, and they don't ever end up satisfied. And they're constantly acting out in such a way that's creating a tremendous amount of drama around them. Yeah. And a lot of hatred. And they, and there's a lot of, you know, density in their lives. And, and they're not happy people. Yeah. So, the question isn't, you know, do you have to do it to succeed? The question is, do you have to do it to have the life you want? Yeah. And so, the side benefit is that if you understand yourself well, then you're a lot more efficient. Because then you understand how to enjoy yourself. And the thing about enjoyment for me is, enjoyment is, um, it's like the best measure of efficiency. Like, if I have a fast car, it doesn't mean it's an efficient car. An efficient car is one that uses less energy. If I'm enjoying my life, I, it takes me less energy to do the things that I want to do. And since I, and you, I think both of us have had the ability to hang out with a lot of billionaires. What you and I both get to see is there's ones that are who've made their money who are really content. Yeah. Great people keep on building stuff. And then there's ones that are [ __ ] miserable who are constantly at war, constantly fighting. Yeah. Like, it just, it's just not correlated. Yeah.
I love, I love where you started there again, of like the, what you posed there is that the question is like, you're not defending or debating whether you can achieve using, you know, dirty fuel. Yeah. Obviously, you can. And there's a lot of good that has come from that, like unquestionably. Yeah. But it's just that if you're talking to someone, I think that, like, definition of success, or you talked about, like, to live the life that you truly want. Yeah. And is it possible if you're just relying on the dirty fuel? Yeah. You know, and coming back to that. Yeah. Yeah.
No, like, that's where, like, it's absolute misery. And the, and the coolest thing about it is that it doesn't take long to figure it out. You know, I've had folks who work with me because they're, because of my name or my reputation, thinking that it's all about getting performance. And then they find out what the hell, what work we're really doing. And they're very skeptical. But it takes like, one or two steps for them to go, "Oh [ __ ] like, I, I can now get so much more done with so much less effort." Yeah. And so, you know, I think again, like, uh, probably one of my top five recommended books is "The Surrender Experiment" by Michael Singer. And it's like, there's just like, feels that there's some wisdom in that book that's only like, receivable by so many. I work with CEOs and founders too. And it's like, that's just only receivable when they see someone who's building a billion-dollar business while also doing that. You know, it's like a lot easier to go and meditate for an hour when it's like, you know, directly that there is a guy who is actively doing this and has created a massive, you know, empire. Yeah. There's lots of them.
Well, that's honestly, I, I'd love to hear, like, who are your favorite examples? Who, to you, because I certainly have some. You know, the godfather of my son is John Mackey. And I always look at it's like, how much money do you need to make? Like, when I sell your company for $14 billion, like, go look at John Mackey, right? It's like, like, how, what, how much of an impact do you need to have? Like, so for you, who are your examples of this kind of success, of like, not just having an impact in the world, but really kind of like living what occurs to you as a principled way of being?
That's a good question. I noticed that there's something in me that's uncomfortable about it because I, I'm very quiet about my, um, so, I'm, I'm very quiet about who I coach, right? And so, I don't. And then everybody else, I could assume, like, I could assume the guy from Boeing who, who then moved to Ford. I could assume that he has a lot of that. But, um, but I don't know for sure. So, I, so I, I wouldn't want to speak to it unless I know them. And if I know them, then I don't, I'm, it's more confidential than.
Are there ones who are more public-facing that you look at or who have inspired you personally?
Oh, yeah. Um, one, one, one person who inspired me deeply is, um, Munger, Charlie Munger. Cool. I loved. Well, I love reading his work. And I, and the way he looks at it. And it's like, intellectually so, so profound. Yeah. Uh, emotionally, not so much, but intellectually, like, deeply profound. And I really love his work. There was also, I think there was a book named "Maverick," and it was a CEO of a, um, a CEO of a meat company in Brazil. Cool. If I have it right. And, uh, he was the earliest person that was running a company in this, like, really unique way. Open, open, so, everybody knew each other's salaries. And like, a very transparent way. Um, also love, um, I love the principled way in which, um, Bridgewater worked. And, um, don't agree with all of it, but definitely there was some great stuff there. And then, if you want to look at unique ways of running the business, I think "Reinventing Organizations" has a list. You know, have you ever read the book? No. I don't know. It's a great book. Um, they basically talk about human development. And when a consciousness gets to a certain level, this is how they run organizations. Cool. And, um, it's a great book. And, um, again, don't agree with all of it, but there's a lot of examples in there as well. Yeah. And, um, "The Everyone Culture" by, uh, a Harvard guy, is another book that has a, a good, a lot of examples of leaders who have run their companies. Cool. In this way with massive success. Yeah.
So, you know, just while we're on the subject of kind of inspiration and like people who've had an impact, I'm just adding like a, a bookmark to come back because I, I really, I, for me, I feel like there are two decisions on a massive scale for people that tend to be some of the most difficult to make. And so, I'd love to move into practical about like career and relationship. Yeah. Yeah. But also, I'm just curious of getting you to this point. I gave you a hat that says, "Holy [ __ ] we're alive" on it when you got here. And you're with one of your friends. And I was like, "You can only wear this when you're tapped into the holy shitness of your life." And she just goes, "He's there." And so, but who, who have been the biggest influences on you and your work and your approach to really like personal transformation and leadership? Yeah.
Um, so, so I was, uh, raised to have authority issues. So, I didn't trust any [ __ ] authority at all by the time I was, you know, 20 years old. So, it took me a long time to even accept anybody was my teacher. So, what I would do, which, and, and this is, is what makes my work what it is today, is I would read somebody and think to myself, "Prove it." And I would run experiments to see if it was true. Yeah. So, one of the things that I just noticed people do is that they read some sort of self-help book and they go, "I don't believe in that," or "I believe in that." But they don't actually go, "What's the experiment I can run in the next five minutes or 10 minutes that can tell me if this this shit's true or not?" Yeah. And so, some of, some of the experiments I've ran, ran for weeks. And so, so that was, that was what actually, and, and what I find is it's incredibly useful modality to run experiments to say, "What's true for me? And how do I find out? And what's an actual experiment I can run to do it?" Yeah. So, that, and so all of the things that, like, all of our courses are just series of experiments that people get to learn for, what, what, what's true for them. Yeah. Um, so, but with that said, and then the other thing is, a lot of the teachers that I've had have been are dead, unfortunately, and never wrote books. They were pretty esoteric. But the ones that are, that have written books that have been incredibly profound for me, outside of like the dozens of non-dual teachers. I went through this eight, seven, eight years of meditating in a room by myself and worrying. I worried about money, meditated, and read non-dual teachers. So, I had a, like, I had a bookshelf full of them at a time. Um, the most accessible one, the one that I talk about often is Adyashanti, who's now retired. He's amazing. Um, uh, "Hand-in-Hand Parenting" by Patty Wipfler. The book is, listen, totally, most profound spiritual practice I've ever had is that way of parenting. I cannot recommend it enough.
How, how so? It was the one that under, taught me about emotions. Mhm. It was the idea in the parent is that, um, that your child is naturally a connected human being. And then when it feels disconnected from zero to eight years old, it means it needs to have a big emotional experience. And then it'll get back to connection. So, a kid who's like, "No, I don't want to do that. No, I don't want to do that." It's actually just a kid who's like, "I'm not connected right now. I need to have a big emotional experience." Yeah. So, to sit in loving attention with my children while they're having big emotional experiences is what taught me to actually fall in love with my mo, own emotions. And that was, that was my journey into it. And it was lovely. And to, to this day, if I'm on a plane and a kid starts crying, I can stand up, I can turn around, I can look, and I'm like, "That person wasn't allowed to cry as a kid. That person wasn't allowed to cry as a kid. That person wasn't allowed to cry as a kid." That, you know, they, they get all twisted by having to be confronted with that emotion. And you can see it on their faces. And so, beautiful me falling in love with emotions was, was all Patty Wipfler's work, who was a tremendous woman.
Do you remember a moment in your life where you feel like you got that download, where you like were able to receive your kids' emotion like fully in the midst of an outburst? Like, if you go back? Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can tell a good story about when that was definitely there. I was in a Whole Foods, speaking to John Mackey. And, uh, I was in a Whole Foods and, uh, my kid wanted the chips or whatever it was. And I was like, "Yeah, no. I see that you really want the chips, but we're not going to have the chips." "I want the chips!" Just starts wailing and kicking and screaming. I sit down on the floor and I'm just like, "Yeah, you want the chips. I understand." And this, well, I live in a somewhat hippie town. This little hibby-bitty lady, 70 years old, comes over and she's like, "Are you okay?" My daughter goes, "Ah, I'm just having my emotions." She just like looked at her and said, "I'm just having my emotions." And the woman just like, "What? What just happened?" Yeah. And I just sat there. It lasted like, seven minutes. And totally. Yeah. And I was just a full loving presence. I knew at that point I had gotten it. I was like, "Oh, yeah. That I, I'm there." Yeah.
Like, my, my call back for that again, it's like, my discomfort with your emotions because my son's only seven. Yeah. Is my own discomfort with my emotions. Yeah. That's right. Like, straight up. Straight up. Exactly. It's like, there's nothing, there's no issue there. Like, my discomfort, like, just my own stuff there. And now my girls are, you know, 16 and. Yeah. And I, so I get to see the outcome. There's a, we have a, I don't know if you've listened to it, but there's a podcast with my daughter and I where my daughter is interviewing me. Oh, cool. If you like, want to see the result of Hand-in-Hand Parenting, listen to that podcast because it's just, it just totally [ __ ] shows you what the deal is. And, and I'm also familiar with Adyashanti. And so, I'm curious, you know, again, because you're you're working with kind of leaders on the cutting edge, right? Really pioneering folks. And, yeah, how do you, like, and I, you're not like putting people into like pursuing non-dual states, you know, like necessarily, but it's part of your own path. And so, I think that what brings up for me, and I imagine like a lot of the types of people that I get to work with, is that their motivation to perform at the levels that they would like to, Yeah. will go away if they start to access those frames of consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to that?
That's what I would say. I'd laugh hysterically. Um, yeah. No, not true. I, so the thing, so what I found is that pursuing non-dual states is a very inefficient way to get to non-dual states. Yeah. That's the one thing. And so, it's really common in our work that people find non-dual states that we never talk about it. And also, it might be helpful, could you just define what a non-dual state is for people who are listening? Yeah. Uh, intellectual level, a non-dual state is the, is the recognition that you are one with everything. Yeah. So, uh, on, and so it's a, a place of, of unity. And what it allows you is this access point where you can always find a spacious awareness. Or, there's always access, or it's always there, some version of that. Yeah. And so, that's, and, and it is one step in a, in a, in a, in a thing. And it's not an end. A lot of people think it's an end. It's not an end. It's just one more step in a journey. Yeah. Um, and, and anyways, and it, and it can happen. I, it's, I would say it's our birthright. That as long as, like, if we allow ourselves to continue to develop, just like we will walk at some point, we will be in a non-dual state at one point. And so, again, you know, when I hear that, that we are one with all things, that, yeah, if so many of us are motivating to achieve and do because we are not enough, and we'll be enough when we do the thing, or, you know, have the love. Yeah. Dirty fuel. Dirty fuel. That's dirty fuel. So, if you, if you, there's this idea that like, mice aren't going to do stuff. Like, that's how that's so, oh, once I actually understand who I am, I'll stop doing. Makes as much sense as, "Once a dog understands what it really is, it'll stop doing." Like, dogs are going to do, and, and, and mice are going to do. And like, they're going to do based more on their environment than they are their state. Meaning, you put 20 mice together in like, a mice paradise, and they're all going to be active. And you put one mouse alone in a hut, and they're going to be, you know, yeah, there. So, I think there is also some wisdom to it. Meaning, if you're running on dirty fuel for a long time, then you're running on adrenaline. When your adrenaline, on a nervous system level, when your adrenaline goes out, then you go into depression, and you do, do nothing for a while. And I don't know, I cannot tell you how many CEOs I've seen when they retire, they do like the two, three years of hanging out in their pajamas. Yeah. Because they're depressed. And then they're beating themselves up for not doing anything, which only extends the depression. Yeah. So, that happens. And so, there is something that they're like, "Oh, if I actually stop pumping adrenaline into my system, I might slow down." And on a nervous system, there's some truth to that. Um, and at the same time, I, I, like, I work, I work generally. I always make time for my kids. I always put my phone down when my kids show up, or whatever I'm doing. I always make time for exercise and family. Yeah. Outside of that, I'm working from 7:00 in the morning till 10:00 at night. And I [ __ ] love it. Yeah. So, I, I, that's why it makes me laugh. Because we, we're born to, to have purpose and meaning and, and, and, and do things. Like, you know, kids, like, kids don't go, "I got to build a better Lego thing. I got to build a better Lego." What? What's wrong with you that you didn't build enough? Why can't you get more Legos? Yeah. No, they're just like, "Oh, cool. [ __ ] Lego." And somebody just asked me that the other day. They're like, "I know that you could retire. You're coming onto this scene right now, and like, what gives you the ambition?" And I was like, "I'm just playing with Legos, man. I'm just like, I'm just following the enjoyment." Yeah. Following the enjoyment. Yeah.
Which I think again, you know, you, that's what I love about the enjoyment. And even just like, you talked when we were talking about principles, that there's just such a, you can trust that. Like, similarly, like, I, my access point is more values right now, but it's that if you were to live your values or your principles for the rest of your life, to the best of your ability, if you were to fail, Yeah. at what you set out to do, what else could you have done? Right? Right. Yeah. Exactly.
Well, that's actually the way I experience life. And that's probably why I have a problem with ethics. And it, which is like, my life is in, like, feels like a state of choicelessness. Like, there are some things that are like, "Oh, I want to do that. That's awesome. That's cool. And I'm doing it." There are some things where it's, I don't want to do that, but I know I'm going to do that. I know I have to do that. Like, not have to. Like, I have a choice, but I know that if I make that choice, it's going to be misery. I, I've lived long enough in my principles to know that if I don't follow them, yeah, it's going to, it's going to hurt eventually. And so, there's a, there is a feeling of choicelessness in, in my life. Of, man, there's just nothing, if I do anything differently, it's, it's not being who I am. It's not, it's not following that call. And it feels like a call. It's like, oh, there's this call. And that is the cleanest fuel so far that I've come by. And going into like an ethical, trying to be good, that whole thing distorts the call. I think, I think the way it works in my system is that somewhere along the line, I saw the inherent goodness in myself and everybody. Yeah. Under stress, we might do some [ __ ] things. Yeah. But not under stress, but like, there, there's just an inherent goodness in us. Yeah. And so, somehow ethics takes me away from that call and that inherent goodness. I think it's again, it's like, for me, semantics. Yeah. But it's also, it's understanding like, I use the example of, of Trump and Elon, and it's like, um, to avoid the idea that they are bad, like some hyperbolic assessment, but that there can be, if my principles deem that an action is causing harm. Yeah. To just apply like, these are my principles, but not because they are good, but because they are me. And it is aligned to express like displeasure or disdain for an action that I think is causing harm in the world. Right. But it's just again, can I, can I trace that back to, I must do this because it's for me, in my own correct connection to principles, and not because anything is any specific way. Yeah. Exactly. That's how it works in me too.
So, I walked, it's, you know, we were talking about how you live your life is this choicelessness. And I walked out of the, the house today and I, uh, had been listening to some of, uh, one of your podcasts with Chris Williamson, which I'll, I'll recommend to everyone listening to this. And it's an incredible podcast, it's really quite brilliant. And my introduction to you and Chris, I believe. Um, and so I said, "Here, what question should I ask Joe?" And he said, "What's like, what's like your life goal?" So, from hero, what's like your life goal? It's, that's a good question. Yeah.
So, I would say, um, this is the Lego set I'm playing in currently. So, what I noticed is that, um, humans are stressed and they're not enjoying their lives in general. Yeah. And so, that is bad because that isn't, that, that is sub-optimal for a personal reason, which is you don't learn as much. You don't, you don't grow as quickly. You don't transform. You're worse to your kids. You die quicker. There's a whole reason, a whole bunch of reasons not to be stressed and not enjoy yourself. Yeah. But on a societal level, there's a bigger issue. Society, what it means is that people feel like they're under threat, which means they treat people like they're a threat. If I'm under stress, I'm going to treat people like they're a threat. And if you treat people like a threat long enough, they act like a threat. Yeah. And you can see this in geopolitics, you can see this in politics, you can see this in marriages, you can see this in the way that people raise their kids. Yeah. Is that they're in a fight all the time because they feel like there's a threat all the time because they're stressed. Yeah. And society and most thinking thinks about stress as, um, you know, too much phone, too much work, a whole bunch of external things of, "I'm too busy." All those things are making me stressful, making life stressful, and they're contributing. No doubt. But the actual thing that's happening, I would say, is three. One is the negative self-talk makes us constantly under attack, makes it so that we are, um, feeling stressed all the time because it's like, whatever it is, 50, 60,000 thoughts a day just coming at us, and most of them negative and attacks. Um, the second thing is a lack of connection. The longest study that Harvard ever did just shows that a deeply connected person with other people is a happy person, lives longer, has less, is more successful in life. Yeah. Um, and then, um, emotional repression. So, like, right now, if I said to you, "Stop feeling every emotion that you have," you have to constrict your muscles. And that is tension. This is what [ __ ] tension is. Yeah. And so, to have that emotional clarity and fluidity, to have that connection, and to have a different relationship with the voice in your head is the actual solution. So, what I want to do is create, um, a force in society that does those three things.
What does it look like? What's the dream? Um, so, my dream is like a 300-year dream. It's not a, it's not a, like a, my lifetime dream. So, my dream is that, um, there's this, a place in Africa. [Music] Where, when, um, they have a whole bunch of rituals and ways of handling, without, without, let's not call it the religious connotation, but they have a ways of handling different things that happen in society. So, for them, if there's a divorce, Yeah. Or if there's a husband and wife are having a problem, that is not a problem with the husband and wife, that's a problem with the community. That means that is a, that is a symptom of a communal community issue. And so, the community comes together to help. And they have a ceremony, a healing thing that they do. Um, what I, my vision is that we live in a world where we have th, that those are prevalent. And that, it doesn't matter what story you believe about God. It doesn't matter what religion you are, but we have these shared ways of like, "Oh, here is what happens when kids hit puberty that allows them to learn how to be a man or a woman in a more profound way." This is the act. And so, these, these are the experiments that can be run for someone to understand what's useful when they're starting their first job, or when they're transitioning work, or all the things. Because our, you know, we've all been to a wedding that's healing. We've been to weddings that suck. And we've been to that wedding that it's like, "Oh my God, I feel healed in that wedding." I want to see that for graduating from high school. I want to see that for, for, and that, there, there's these ways that we commune with one another where we have a society that supports us. Yeah. And, and, and actually transitions. The thing about, we, we do this thing called Groundbreakers, which is, you know, only people who've done a lot of our other work can do. But the, but they, um, it's a week-long thing. And we've measured the results of it. And it's like, reduction in negative self-talk by like, a standard deviation, reduction in neurosis by a standard deviation. Yeah. And, and so, if that's possible, Yeah. Then, like, let's make 50 of those things and put them all over the world. Yeah. In different, and in, in those big moments of transition. Yeah. Where we can all feel like loved and supported. And it doesn't matter. Sex, color, creed, wealth. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not happening most likely in my lifetime. But I, because you need a really strong foundation of, Yeah. An incredibly principled way of living to, to start that. And then, then hopefully, that would be my dream. Yeah. And like I said, it's a loosely held goal.
Sounds like a religion. Uh, yeah, it is like a religion. Here's where it's not like a religion is that I don't say that. I say that with a lot of love. No. Yeah, I can see that it would sound like a religion. The difference is, and so, I, I would be happy to call it a religion or a cult or anything, actually. But the, the thing I would say that's important is that current, every religion so far, except for maybe one or two, the authority is is removed from the person. Yeah. So, so that, I think that's like a really important thing. Totally. I think it's also not like a religion in that it doesn't, uh, require a story. I don't want it to have a particular story. Because right now, what I see in religions is that nobody believes the story. Even if I am like, the most devout Catholic, which I was raised as a Catholic, I'm not going to believe the entire Catholic story. Yeah. And the story I believe, the Catholic story I believe, is going to be different than the Catholic story that the, Yeah. Other folks believe. And so, for me, it's like, I, this is, I don't want the story. And I don't want, for the vision. And I don't want a story. And I don't want the, um, and I don't want the authority being removed from the person. Yeah. It's just empowering people to come back to their own understanding of their principles. Right. Exactly. Yeah.
But the community aspect, very religious. The ceremony aspect, that, those, those are things that religion has. Yeah. There's, there's an interesting example I think be pulled in the realm of men's work, where I spend a lot of my time. Yeah. And it's like this idea, if you look at these quintessential rites of passage that were kind of baked into society for so long, that transitioned our kind of egocentricity or like focus on the self into like a focus on like other, in many ways, where like child-rearing and marriage. Yeah. Which was like, again, I'm looking at someone else, like serving, versus just focusing on myself. And like, that those have been like pushed back like later in life. And so, you see a lot of like young men who are struggling. And I got curious about like, rites of passage. Yeah. So amazing. And it's so amazing. And I just like, so what is it? It's like, it's any experience that helps someone to transition from a set status in their community into another. Yeah. And like, a new identity of like, if you look at like, boy into man. Yeah. But just like you said, it's that the way that those existed in like early civilizations was that the status you were stepping into, or the new identity, was predefined. Yeah. And that, like, I think that one of the biggest opportunities for like mass transformation is just that it's where you can look at the value of a rite of passage to like shift your identity from like, "I was this, and now I'm this," but not defined, but self-defined. And then even more powerfully, because it's like, because you can do that work on one of your courses, like on a Zoom, and it's going to be probably life-changing. Yeah. But when you have a group of people who are doing the same thing for themselves, and then reflecting back to you the new version, it just stamps the new identity. All of our courses are designed in that exact way and with that group, um, thing. And the, the other thing to say about it is, yoga in America today. Yeah. Is it a religion? Like, it came from a religion. People are all over the world doing yoga. I was just in Thailand, and they're doing yoga. They weren't doing yoga in the last place. Yoga is an example of the thing that I would want to create. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing about it is, you go into yoga class, you get to pick your yoga teacher. You get to figure out, do I want to believe in, does it mean one thing to me? Does it mean another thing to me? And so, I, I feel like it's far more like that is the place I want to go. But you have that community of, of yoga. You have that support group, and that's important.
Beautiful, man. Um, I think I, I have to go in six minutes. Great. Okay, perfect. Sorry to, sorry to. No, no, you're good. I, I appreciate that. Well, I mean, um, if I have five minutes left of your time, like, what, what I'd love to even just like, start to land the plane a little bit on decisions. It's like, so what I've taken out of it again, it's like, to make clear decisions, emotional fluidity. We can start there. We can come back into like, feeling our feelings fully. We can come back into principles. Yeah. Of like, making decisions from a place that is aligned. Yeah. We can look at pursuing enjoyment. Yeah. What else would you say, like, just to synthesize some of these major points that go into great decisions?
There's a whole bunch of little hacks, you know, like, uh, if I'm looking back on this decision 10 years from now, what would I be proud that I made? There's all sorts of, like, there's dozens of those things that can help you get clarity in the moment. Um, but the only other major one is a community of practice, you know, like the accountability of your men's group. Yeah. Where everybody gets to see the decisions that they're making, that, you know, that there's, um, you have other people to reflect. That's how we're, you know, big decisions. That's how we were built to make them. Yeah. In groups, not in as individuals.
So, as a way for us to close this, it kind of just came through. Yeah. But I'll just invite you to like, if you can imagine it. Yeah. A little experiment. Yeah. To use your lingo. Yeah. A big decision that the listeners, viewers are grappling with. And so, for that person who's taking this in, like, what would you want that person grappling with a really big, challenging decision? What would you want them to know or consider?
Yeah. I would, I can tell you what I'd want them to do because great, because it's without having everything, you know, all the emotional inquiry and stuff in your belt. So, I would want you to think about the decision. And I want you to think about a scenario where it went the worst [ __ ] possible way. And I would want you to slowly visualize that entire process and feel every emotion that comes up, from your boss firing you to your wife leaving you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Feel it all. And then I want you to think about the very best way it could go. And then do that in slow motion and feel all of that. Because once you've fallen in love with both of those things, once those things, just like the samurai and the Stoics and the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying helps you overcome fear by visualizing your death and decomposition, it's the same thing. It just allows you, if you totally feel the emotional states of both the success and the failure, emotion becomes super clear, or the decision becomes super clear. Welcome it all. Yeah. Yeah.
Beautiful, man. So, for the people who want to go deeper with you with AOA, what's the best place to find you?
Art of Accomplishment, uh, is the website. And it is the podcast. Yeah. Highly recommend. And we have a YouTube channel. And, um, and I highly recommend either going to the YouTube channel or going to the podcast and just like going through and saying, "This is what I'm wrestling with," and listen to something because it's not a normal podcast. And we're not interviewing people. It's, we're deeply talking about a topic like being stuck, or making decisions, or anger, or. Yeah. Yeah.
I'll say, as a, as a fan of yours, it also felt like in recent memory that there's a very obvious, like, up-level in the quality of the content, like, not just of there, but just production and everything that you guys are doing. And like, yeah, I just very happy to see what you're putting into the world, like scaling and getting the recognition it deserves. And so, personal stamp of approval. Check it out. And thanks so much for the time today, brother. Really enjoyed the chat.
Yeah, what a joy. All right, y'all. Thanks for joining. All right, bye.