Transcription
Well, hello and welcome to this week's episode where I'm talking about a topic that I'm super passionate about, which is effective communication. This episode is called "Stop Being Defensive and Learn to Listen."
So, on the surface, this may sound obvious to you. You may understand it and say, "Of course, being defensive can't be good." But here's the reality: we all do it. And the question is, why do we do it? How can we stop? And why is it so damaging to our relationships?
So, let's start with what it is. When someone comes to you with an issue and you start to defend yourself, you feel threatened. You immediately want to justify, give reasons why you've done what you've done. That is being defensive. Now, there's all kinds of levels, right? There's all different levels of, are you a little bit defensive, which is superhuman, or are you extremely defensive, which is really bad for your relationships? Because what does it do? It blocks intimacy. Because defensiveness, as one of my mental health heroes would tell you, Dr. Harriet Lerner, defensiveness is the arch-enemy of listening.
So, I want you to really think about that because you can't do those things simultaneously. You can't be being defensive and be effectively listening at the same time because it is impossible.
So, let's talk a little bit about why. There's many reasons why people are more defensive than others. And so much of it, of course, has to do with your, where you grew up, the home you grew up in, and what models of behavior did you see? What happened? Did you grow up in a very authoritarian home? And if you made a mistake, was it a big deal? Then you would be defensive. You would be naturally wanting to defend yourself because it was dangerous, because it was scary, because it was hurtful to you. You know, this also breeds codependency, which is a vlog for another time. But there is a reality that if you got into a lot of trouble, if you had a very strict household, it would be very natural for you to even lie to get out of trouble, right? But defensiveness then becomes this ingrained behavior. The moment someone says, "We need to talk," "I'd like to talk to you about something," where you're already feeling like constricted inside, you can't wait to defend why you're doing what you're doing.
A personal story, quick. I learned about defensiveness years ago, many decades ago, actually, I should probably say to be more honest, when I was an assistant at a talent agency. And I remember my boss asked me to do something. I did it. And he went on to say, "Hey, I don't want you to do it this way. I want you to do it that way." "That, that's not what I meant." So that's it. And I, I just launched into this whole story of why I did it that way and that the way he said it made me think. No idea. I had no idea I was being defensive. That's just the way I was. And he said, "You know, Terry, I don't care why you did it the way that you did it, right? I just want you to do it the way I'm telling you to do it. And I'm your boss, and that's your job." And I gotta say that this defensiveness is not very professional, and I really don't like it. And I was so, of course, I mean, I was only 20, you know, whatever I was. So I was like, embarrassed. I was humiliated. I went to the bathroom, I cried. Like, I was also sensitive, whatever. But I learned that stuck with me for the rest of my adult life.
Then I started really doing some research about what is defensiveness and why to not do it. I brought it into my therapist, and I talked about it with her. And this is when I really started getting interested in what I call athletic listening, or deep listening. And really was able to make those connect those dots that Dr. Harriet Lerner said about defensiveness being the arch-enemy of listening. I could suddenly see that there was something very valuable in that conversation that my boss had with me. And I thought he was very generous to do so. Thank you, Scott. The value is learning something. Oh, now I will be a better assistant because now I understand how you want something done, and I will do it that way. So the proper response, especially in a power dynamic where the person, he was my boss, the proper response was, "Okay, thank you for telling me. Going forward, I'll do it the way you just requested." That, that was actually my job. And the proper response. Now, he wasn't being critical. He wasn't accusing me of something, right? He was actually just telling me, as my boss, how he wanted me to do something. And it was my job appropriately to say, "Okay, great."
So, let's get into a little bit more scientifically based evidence as to why defensiveness is really bad for your relationship. So, if we look at John Gottman, Dr. John Gottman, who many of you know, he is the originator of the Love Lab. So, but for about four decades, probably more, he's been doing actual studies, scientific studies on couples. And he became well-known because he was able to predict within like a 94% accuracy, by spending a short time with couples, who would actually get divorced and who wouldn't. So he talks a bit about the Four Horsemen to the Apocalypse. Oh my god, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, I think it is. Heaven causing. So, what are the four things that you want to really not do in relationships? And what he saw were the things that the couples who ended up calling the love disasters instead of the Masters. What were those Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? So, these are patterns of behavior within the relationship. So, criticism is the first one. And we're going to get to that right after this, defensiveness, because they really do go together. Contempt and stonewalling. So, stonewalling, for those, if you don't know, that means being withdrawn in anger, using silence to punish the other person, knowing that you need to have a conversation. But when the person says, "We need to talk," you're going, "What? What are you talking about? What do we need to talk about?" All of those are ways of stonewalling.
So, let's, since this is actually, I'm actually focusing this episode on defensiveness and listening, let's get the connection between defensiveness and criticism. You can get into the cycle in a relationship. And in fact, in any relation, but it doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, where the person, you feel attacked, the person is coming at you with a harsh criticism, and you're defensive. And then your defensiveness might make them be more critical. And it becomes this sort of never-ending cycle of nobody listening, everyone's feelings being hurt. And slowly but surely, these are the behaviors that actually scratch away at the foundation of any relationship. A love relationship in particular, but any relationship when you think about it, right? Who wants to always be in this kind of a conflict? And that's what it breeds.
When we look at defensiveness and the way of the childhood stuff that I said before, there may be many reasons why you are naturally defensive and afraid to do anything wrong or to have anyone think you did something wrong. But it's important that you understand what is your stuff in any relationship. What is your stuff that you came into, sort of like the Louis Vuitton baggage that you came into this experience with? We need to be aware of that because you may be responding to your partner or to a friend as if they are this punitive and critical parent, and they may not be being that, right?
So now, I'm going to move into some tips that I have for you so that you can sort of clear your relationship of this criticism, defensive dynamic. Let's start with, you have to understand if you have a lot of resentment right now in your relationship, like past resentment stuff, you really need to get clear. So you gotta do an inventory. Ask yourself some questions. Am I harboring resentment from past experiences? Maybe it's things you haven't talked about. Maybe it's things you need to talk about. So that's the first thing. And in that, I don't have, I'm giving you a downloadable. It's like a little guide. So the questions will be on there for you to actually be able to answer so that you can sort of clear your side of the street, right?
The second thing is, I want to make the distinction. It's a super important distinction that a dialogue is not the same as a debate. And I find that in the public sphere, online, everywhere, it almost feels like there's no dialogues going on. And that debating, which is all about winning. So, what's the difference between a dialogue and a debate? A dialogue, you are listening with the intention of understanding. A debate, you are listening with the intention of basically crushing the other person's theory or what they're saying. With a debate, there's a winner and there's a loser. With the dialogue, this is a coming together consciously, mindfully, wanting a deeper understanding.
So, there are questions, and I'll put this in your little guide. There are questions that you can ask. If your partner is saying something to you like, "I don't like the way that, you know, you always come home from work in a terrible mood and take it out on me." Instead of being defensive and potentially saying, "Well, if you did more, I'd be in a better mood," or "If dinner was ready when I got here," if we were talking about heteronormative stuff or whatever, like the blame then goes back. Or if you're actually looking to have a dialogue, there's got to be a softness, right? We can start it with softness. And if the other person starts it, you can bring the softness in. Find something you can agree with the person on. And I don't mean lie. I mean, think about it and be honest. You could say, "You know, you're right, honey. I have been in kind of a bad mood lately." And then you can move into, if you have a simple request that you would like them to do something differently, "Can I make a simple request that when I come home, the first 15 or 20 minutes that I just get a chance to decompress? I do want to hear about your day. I do want to talk about this. I don't want to be in a bad mood, but I sort of need to shift hats from work hat to home hat," or whatever it's gonna be. This is a softer way of responding to the person. But you can only do that if you raise your own awareness about how defensive you might be being in the relationship.
If you have something you want to say to your partner, start it with softness. Start it with a positive. Be aware of what your intention is. Do you want to be right, or do you want to be understood? There's a very famous saying we've all heard it: "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be loving?" Because you can't be both. Wayne Dyer has a version. Harville Hendrix has a version. There's many people who are relationship experts who all agree that it's pretty much impossible to be super wedded to being right, to winning, and to be lovingly communicating with a partner. Those two things, you can't do them at the same time because they're basically polar opposites, right?
So, moving to really working on getting clear about your own desire and really trying to get a dialogue going and keeping that going. And a good relationship, hopefully, you're having a dialogue for all eternity. Or you can get into this defensiveness, criticism thing, and you can do that for all eternity, or until you get divorced, right? It's so exhausting, unsatisfying, and it builds up so much resentment that it's really bad. It's very toxic for your relationship. For your friendships too, though, because what I'm talking about, this really does apply to more than just romantic relationships. It applies to friendships, sibling relationships, even parents. So I want you to think about those at the top too.
So, let's move on to what is the third one. Oh, this one always struck me as so profound and so important. That if we have a complaint about something, instead of just saying, "Wow, that sucked. You suck. That situation sucked. That was so wrong." That is past-focused. Like, it already happened. And it's okay to say, "Hey, I was really upset about that thing that happened, and I'd like to make a simple request." And now we become future-focused because that's how we can actually problem-solve and not just be complaining or making the other person run. So, you make a simple request, which also requires you to be a part of the solution in your own life. You make a simple request that they, whatever their simple request is, call you if they're going to be late, not share information you asked them not to share, whatever, whatever your beef is. It's like making a future request because that is where the possibility of something positive happening lives is in the next time. So, yes, we have to let the person know that we had a problem with what happened this time. Sure, that's valuable. That's valid. It makes sense. But belaboring that really breeds defensiveness because it is just criticism. If you're not willing to get into solution mode, it really is just simply criticism and nothing more than that. And what does that breed? Defensiveness. And hence, there is the cycle.
So, I didn't give you a lot of strategies because actually, this is very deep work. And I just gave you my three top ones because honestly, in one video, in one episode, in one podcast, I feel like that's enough information for you to work on. But let's talk one last time. Let me just make one more point about athletic listening. Why do we care? Why does it matter that you actually value becoming an athletic listener in your life? Because that is the road, the doorway, the bridge to intimacy. When you can listen as much or more than you talk, if you can be secure enough to encourage the people you're talking to expand on what they're saying, if you can encourage them, "Is there more you want to say about that? What do you think you should do? How do you feel about that?" Without therapy-zing someone, but it is an actual question. And people will tell you the truth about the way they feel if you are a soft and open receptacle, basically, for their information. And if they sense that it's like an inquisition or that you're waiting for them to make a mistake, you know, the whole thing with the debate. And you know when you're in a conversation or a conflict with a debater because they're literally waiting for you to make a technical error in your data. They can't wait. You're saying something super important and they're like, "Yeah, but it was not last Wednesday, it was last Tuesday." Hello? You're like, "How does that change what I'm saying?" But that's when you know you're talking to someone who's really into winning and less interested in actually coming to a resolution, not interested in building a dialogue.
So, I am going to do more episodes on really gaining this skill set of being a fantastic conversationalist, slash dialoguer, slash problem solver. Because this is what we need if what we're really seeking are healthy, vibrant, flexible, durable relationships. Whoo! Well, that was it. So, I hope that you got value out of this episode. And if you did, and if you're a friend of the show, please share it with the people in your life. I would love that. If you have not already subscribed to my YouTube channel, please do because I'm starting my Terry Cole Live Q&A show on YouTube in April. Stay tuned for details. But in order to know when it's going to be, you need to be subscribed. So please do that. I want to say, as always, thank you so much for being here, for caring about your relationships and your own mental health, for sharing this work in the world with other people. I so appreciate you. And you guys who are on my channel, if you listen to my podcasts, you know I answer all your questions myself. So feel free to drop a question and let's get this conversation going. As always, take care of you. You.