Herbal Synergy: How Plants Work Better Together with Sajah Popham

Welcome to the Virtual Herbalism Conference. I'm your host, Lindsey Feldpausch, and I am excited to be welcoming Sajah Popham. Sajah is a clinical herbalist, educator, and Co-Founder of the School of Evolutionary Herbalism. He's also authored a book, Evolutionary Herbalism, and hosts a podcast, The Plant Path. Sajah has an extensive background that bridges self-study and formal training, including time at Bastyr University and apprenticeships with many herbal elders. Sajah brings a unique, vitalistic perspective to herbalism. As a clinical practitioner and educator, Sajah's work centers on transformational healing, combining clinical herbalism, medical astrology, and spagyric alchemy. In this interview, Herbal Synergy: How Plants Work Better Together, we'll peak into a very interesting topic—synergy—what this even means, how plants can impact one another in combination, and how this affects herbal formulation. Sajah, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to share today. Thanks so much for joining us once again.

Well, thanks so much for bringing me on to the conference again this year. It's a real honor to be here, and I'm happy to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is formulation.

Wonderful. Well, we are certainly happy to have you back. Let's dive right in and talk about what herbal synergy even means and how do we recognize this in practice with plants.

Yeah, well, I think it's an important conversation to have, especially when we consider different cultures and traditions of herbal around the world. You look at herbalism, East, West, North, South, wherever we're observing a tradition of herbal medicine, it's really common to see plants used together. Aside from the simpler tradition that we really see come out of the homeopathic tradition and the simplers—the eclectics commonly used more simples. Other than that, though, a lot of practice of herbal medicine really is combining herbs together.

Why is that? Well, I think that happens for a number of reasons. One, I think comes down to the complexity of a human being. We have bodies that are incredibly complex. We have health problems that can be equally complex. Sometimes a single plant doesn't always cover all of the things that we need to address within an imbalanced physiological organism, that there's just too many things going on in too many different organ systems for one plant to really cover it all. This is where the premise of herbal formulation comes in, where we have plants that have different affinities for different organ systems and tissues of the body. They have different actions on those organ systems. They have different energetics. When we start to combine them together, we're able to create a complex compound of affinities and actions and energetics that matches the pattern that's going on within the person.

I like the term synergy here because synergy, to me, that word indicates the creation of something new. It's like herbal formulating. When you put one plant with another plant, it's not like one plus one is two. It's not just, oh, you have the properties of this plant combined with the properties of this plant. It's like you're creating something new. I always like to think of it as like you're almost creating a whole other remedy, in a similar way that one plant can have hundreds of different constituents that synergistically work together to create the property of that one herb. Well, when you put two herbs together, those two herbs are like constituents of a greater whole, in which case the hole is much greater than the sum total of the parts. There's something unique comes into being when you combine even one herb with one other herb. There's an incredible amount of complexity there. I think there's different approaches to how you combine one herb with another herb to create a very specific desired result that you want to have with those plants. I love the idea that one plus one doesn't equal two in synergy. One plus one equals three.

I like how you shared about your perspective on synergy. So how do we recognize it in practice?

How do we recognize it in practice? Well, in terms of utilizing the principle of synergy, the way I tend to think of it when I'm formulating is usually I'm combining one herb with another herb for a very particular reason. The way I tend to think of it is… Synergy is one term I use, but I also like to think of sympathy, a sympathetic reaction amongst two herbs, two herbs with similar properties. Say I have someone that has some musculoskeletal spasm, and I want to give them a spasmolytic. Say I want to give them something like black cohosh. Well, I could add another herb that is also spasmolytic to that black cohosh to amplify that spasmolytic effect. Those herbs are sympathetic. There's a similar quality that I want to further bring out. So maybe I'll combine it with some lobelia. And now, while black cohosh and lobelia are both spasmolytic herbs, they have very different biochemical profiles, they're very different plant families, they have different tastes, they have different other organ affinities. But when we overlay on them, that spasmolytic action is going to be exemplified much more so than lobelia by itself or black cohosh by itself.

Another way that I think that we can recognize it in practice in terms of how we think through a synergistic effect between plants would be, say, balancing the energetics of an herb to make it more suitable for a person. One example I really like with this is, say, in a cough, in a respiratory situation, say we really want to give an herb like Ligusticum, like osha, because we like that it has some antibacterial effects, some antiseptic effects. But maybe the osha is a little too harsh. It's a little too hot, it's a little too expectorant. Maybe it's a little too drying, but we really want to give it to that person. Well, we can modulate that effect with something like licorice or marshmallow, like a soothing, moistening demulcent herb that's going to balance the net humoral effect of that osha to make it more compatible with that person. There we have more of a synergistic effect, a modulating effect, a balancing effect in terms of the energetics of those herbs.

Another way that we can do that is if we think of a juxtaposed action or a juxtaposed organ affinity that we want to address in a person. Say, for example, someone has some digestive problems, and we really want to give them maybe just a simple digestive carminative, say, fennel or peppermint or angelica or something like that. We recognize that we want to maybe bring some blood flow to the GI. We want to maybe relax the gut. We want to stimulate secretion a little bit. But say we also want to bring a quality in for, say, the liver and gallbladder. Maybe we need some increased bile secretions. We would include a bitter herb with that carminative. Now, it's not like two antispasmodics or a hot herb and a cold herb or a dry herb or whatever. This is two totally different. You have a warming, carminative, aromatic with a bitter that's working on a totally different organ system, working on the liver, the gallbladder, whereas the other ones maybe are more intestinal-focused. It's working on a juxtaposed organ system embodying a totally different herbal action, but that ends with a net resultant effect that ultimately benefits the patient.

Those are some of the ways that I think of, I guess, different types of synergistic qualities that we can do simply just by combining one herb with another herb. I know sometimes when people hear about formulation, they think, oh, a pair, just two herbs together. That's a really simple form. There's not much to it. Maybe they want something a little more exciting. They want a bunch of herbs together. But I really like to mention this, that the act of combining one herb with another herb is really, really powerful. It also forms a great way to study your Materia Medica. When I'm studying one herb, I'm always thinking, okay, what other herbs would I combine with this one herb for a specific result? You can really see how you can have a lot of fun with it. You can really just take that one herb, take chamomile. Oh, well, chamomile and dandelion root is very different from chamomile and fennel. It's very different from chamomile and hops. It's very different with chamomile and yarrow. Those are four totally different herbal pairs that all feature chamomile, but they all have a totally different effect on the body. I think that's a really great way to not only study Materia Medica, to start thinking through how you might start to build simple pairing combinations. I think that just ends up making you a better herbalist. It's a really fun study tool, too.

I feel like overall, Sajah, you were saying that we see greater efficacy in synergistic pairings or formulations overall.

Yeah, I would agree with that. We also have many traditions that are built on herbal pairings. I think it's so beautiful because I think that the path to really becoming a good formulator is knowing an herb on an individual basis and building that relationship. Just as you said, and I love this practical tip to think about how you build then just one more herb to direct or to create a formulation. I would love to hear, do you have a formulation framework that you work within and how do you ensure that you're building synergy in those formulations?

Yeah. Well, to me, a proper formula really starts with a proper intake. I mean, if you're working with a person and you're trying to create a formula that is specific to that person, it's really important that you make sure that you get all the information that you need to know about that person and the health complications that they're facing. To me, good formulation really starts with good intake, good assessment, good evaluation, excellent interview skills, knowing how to differentiate what information is useful and what information is not useful? Because anyone that's ever done an intake knows lots of words are said, and not everything is always necessarily 100% useful in terms of deciphering our remedy selection. For me, it really starts with a proper intake. For me, there's this translation process between the intake procedure, all my notes, my case notes that I have, and then a way to translate that over into the herbs. That's a process that no one had ever really explained it to me before. It was just, I'm sure a lot of people do a very similar thing that I do, but the way I started thinking it through just myself was, okay, here's the pattern within the person. What are the main organ systems that I need to make sure that my herbs address, and I'll usually list those out. I need to just know where in the body I want my herbs to go. Then I start thinking through, okay, what are the specific herbal actions that I want these herbs to have? Do I need to make sure there's diuretics? Do I need to make sure there's something that's antiseptic? Do I need a demulcent? What exact actions do I need to make sure that my herbs have? Then I tend to think through, What's the net energetic effect that I want the net formula to have. Do I want it to be warming, cooling, moistening, drying? Do I want it to be tonifying, tonic, tightening to the tissue? Do I want it to be relaxant, et cetera. So I think through the energetic. I have my affinities list, I have my actions list, I have my net energetics. And then I tend to think through if there's any specific indications. So when I'm taking the case, it will be, for example, oh, this person has a certain symptomatic pattern that points to a very particular remedy. I try to avoid a use this herb for that disease or that symptom mindset because it's a very allopathic way of thinking. I think in general, it's good to avoid that as much as possible, but there are some instances where it's just there are herbs that are very specific to specific types of patterns. You have an herb like lycopus is really, really specific to a hyperthyroid type pattern. You've got herbs like motherwort are very, very specific to what I call a nervous heart, tension around the heart. I think of it as a cardiac nervine. A lot of times I see things like that. My mind immediately goes to something like motherwort. When I'm doing the case, I'm usually thinking like, okay, are there any herbs that seem to be very specifically indicated based on the presentation, the symptomatic pattern? Even some instances patterns in the pulse or the tongue or psychological indications, emotional indications that might point towards specific remedies. Then I typically will list all of that information out. What that is, is I think of that as like, okay, here's my bridge between all the information I got from the case, the bridge between that and to an actual formula that I hand to the person that they take that will, in an optimal situation, help them. From there, I'll usually try to decipher, is there an herb or herbs that cover a majority of those things? If there's an herb that covers most, if not all those affinities, most, if not all of those actions, and has that energetic composition, that to me is like, oh, that pattern of the plant matches the pattern in the person. I would think of that as a specific remedy. But more often than not, we have to combine herbs. The way I tend to break it down is based on priorities, so what's the main complaint? I think that's a really important thing to remember, too, is it's common in an intake, people talk about a lot of different things. Especially if you're doing a very thorough intake, you're going, say, through an entire body system's review, you go traverse a lot of pathways, and the conversations go in a lot of directions, and that's good so that you can get a sense of the whole person. But therein lies a risk, which is losing sight of the main reason they came to see you in the first place, which was, I can't sleep, or I got a headache, or my tummy hurts, or whatever it might be. You always have to make sure that you're addressing the primary complaint. When it comes to the formula itself, the way I tend to think of it is I have a main portion of the formula or what I think of as the lead or the chief portion of the formula. This is typically, for me, it's usually a pair or a triplet of herbs that usually will take on... It's hard to give hard rules, but usually it's around 50, 60% of the formula. It's usually at least half. Oftentimes, it's usually at least half. Now, I say usually because sometimes I give someone a four-herb formula and it's all in equal parts, or sometimes I give them a six-herb formula and it's all in equal parts. It really varies. But oftentimes, I think of we have a lead portion that covers the primary organ systems, tissues, and actions that I want to cover. Then I have almost like a... I always refer to it as the supportive part of the formula. This is usually herbs that will cover, as I mentioned earlier, juxtaposed organ systems, maybe secondary complaints, maybe things that aren't really primary, but they support or help the lead portion of the formula to better do its job. A really good example of that would be, we see this a lot with alterative formulas. Maybe I want to give someone an alterative formula that's really focused on the liver. But even though the primary focus of the formula is on the liver, it's usually not a bad idea to give them maybe an anti-discratic blood purifying herb, and maybe a lymphagogue herb, and maybe a diuretic herb, and maybe a digestive bitter to aid the main liver herbs in pushing all of those metabolic waste products out to the channels of elimination and actually flushing them out of the system. It's like, yeah, the main portion of the formula is liver, but we're going to add some of these supportive herbs that maybe don't directly affect the liver, but they affect other organ systems that are going to aid those main herbs in doing their job more effectively. Then you have the supportive portion. Then I have what I think of as your synergists. I mean, it's all synergistic, but I think of the synergist there, usually, oftentimes, smaller portion of the formula. These might be herbs that are corrigents. Oftentimes, corrigents are thought of as something to make it taste better. That was the way I was originally taught what a corrigent was. But really, the root of the word corrigent, it means corrector. It's correcting the formula. Oftentimes, this, for me, more often than not, is adding a bit of a moistening herb. This is because many, many herbs are drying in nature. Now, of course, if the person is excessively damp, that's good. But there are many cases a person, if they have dry patterns, a lot of the herbs are very indicated for them, but many of them are drying. Adding a bit of a moistening herb is good to temper that. Sometimes we want to add driving herbs to circulate those herbs. Sometimes we add herbs that are what might be thought of as bioenhancers or something to aid in the absorption—digestion and absorption. We see this a lot in the supplement industry through the addition of black pepper extracts or BioPerine. Oftentimes, they have to add that in because they're standardizing the extract or they're isolating single constituents from an herb that isn't as well absorbed as the whole herb is. We see this with curcumin, we see this with berberine. Those isolated compounds really are not absorbed well at all on their own. But as a whole plant, they typically are. So they end up having to spike it with some black pepper extract to make it actually get in the body. At which point it's like, well, you might as well just use the whole herb. That's the way I tend to think of it. But right, so synergists. Then usually in that smaller portion, too, is if there's any low-dose herbs, so those are going to be if there's any really strong herbs that need lower amounts, maybe some poke or pulsatilla or lobelia or herbs that are just so, you know, cayenne, you don't need a lot of cayenne in a formula, otherwise it just takes over. That's usually the way I tend to… that's kind of my process from intake to the way I think through, I guess, the different sections of a formula. There's different ways of thinking it through, but that's a good general framework, I think, for thinking that through.

Sajah, that was so fun to hear your brain mapping of how you move through formulation. Thank you for sharing. I want to go a little further into energetics for our audience. I feel for many folks, energetics is just a term that we know so well, we don't need explanation, and you started to speak towards it a little bit, but how do you use energetics to support formulas working synergistically, and if you could just give an overview of energetics.

Yeah, absolutely. This is a really important topic in herbal medicine. To clarify, energetics is speaking to the... I always like to define it as the ecological influence of the herb in the tissues of the body. It's based on temperature, it's based on moisture, and it's based on tone. When we say the energetic of an herb, we're not really talking about an esoteric property or a psychospiritual property. To me, that is real but different from energetics. Energetics is really, is the herb heating, cooling, moistening, drying, and then what I think of as tonic or relaxant or stimulant. There's a four-fold energetic pattern with temperature and moisture, hot, cold, damp, dry. Then there's a three-fold pattern of stimulant, relaxant, and tonic. The importance of energetics is that it gets you significantly more specific in your remedy selection for a person. It has to be coupled with the action. If we're speaking in Western herbal terminology, we think of an herbal action, say, I always like to use expectorant as an example because lots of us have had a cough. Lots of us can differentiate a different type of cough. Many of us have experienced different types of coughs. Let me just illustrate this one a little bit. This is an example I always like to use because it helps paint the picture of why energetics is important. Someone has a cough. Well, we've all heard different types of coughs. Someone can have a cough and the mucosal membrane can be really dry. They cough and they cough and they cough and they cough and they cough and they cough and nothing comes up. Conversely, you can have a really damp cough. They cough and you can just hear it's all gurgly and phlegmy, and they're coughing up all of this phlegm and mucus. That would be a differential between a wet cough and a dry cough. That differential, from an herbalist perspective, is really, really important. From a conventional medical perspective, they may not see really any importance in that. It's just like, oh, give an antitussive herb to basically suppress the cough. As herbalists, we actually want to support the cough. We see the cough is a vital, intelligent response of the body to a perturbation to its homeostasis. We want to support the cough. We want to aid the cough in trying to do what it's trying to accomplish, which is clearing the mucus. So we use expectorants. Now, if you were to just use an herbal action to select After a remedy, you would say, oh, this person has a cough. I'm going to go to my list of expectorants, pick one, and it should work. So you go to your herbal expectorants and you see a huge list of herbs. There's lots of herbal expectorants out there. But I think three that we might see on that list would be something like osha, Ligusticum porteri, I mentioned earlier. You might see licorice root, or Glycyrrhiza glabra, and you might see say something like lobelia, Lobelia inflata. Well, those are three expectorants for sure. Those are three really, really different herbs. If you were to just base it off of the herbal expectorant list, you may not catch the difference between these three plants, between osha, licorice, and lobelia. Because of that, you might make a mistake. The difference between these herbs can really be further differentiated by their energetic. Osha is a hot, pungent, volatile oil, resinous herb that we might call a stimulant expectorant with a hot, dry, energetic. Licorice is demulcent. It's sweet tasting. It has a sweet demulcent soothing. It coats the mucosa. It brings a moistening effect to the respiratory system, so we might refer to it as a demulcent expectorant or a moistening expectorant. Then lobelia has a very acrid taste to it. It's an acrid, relaxant, spasmolytic expectorant. We use these three types of expectorants for very different types of coughs. We use osha for the really cold, phlegmatic mucusy cough. We use licorice for the dry, harsh, hacking cough. Then we use lobelia for the really spasmolytic cough, the constricted cough. Sometimes people get that with an asthmatic condition or wheezing. We want to open up the airways. Now, if you give the osha to the person with the harsh dry cough, it's going to aggravate it. If you give the licorice to the someone with a really phlegmatic cough, there are some instances where it might aggravate it. This is why I say energetics is really important because it allows you to get much more specific, first off, in your assessment of the person, because energetics applies not just to the plants, but to the people. You want to have an energetic or a humoral model in the way that you assess the state of the tissue that gives rise to the symptom. You don't just look at the superficial symptom, the cough, the headache. You want to say, what is the underlying state of the tissue that is generating that symptom? Oh, it's not just a cough, it's a cold, damp cough. It's not just a headache, it's a hot, excess, explosive tension headache. That then is going to lead you down a much more specific path towards choosing remedies that are much more specifically indicated for that person, which ultimately increases the likelihood of you choosing the right remedy and not the wrong remedy. Because obviously, as herbalists, we don't want to give the wrong remedy because either, A, at best, it won't work. At worst, it'll make them worse, which we don't want to do. It's like every herbalist's worst nightmare. I think this is one reason behind herbs not working. Sometimes you hear people, oh, yeah, I tried herbs, and now it didn't work, it didn't do anything. There's a lot of reasons that that can happen. It can be a dosage thing, a frequency thing. That's a big one. I took a dropper full of that and it didn't do anything. It's like, well, yeah, of course not. You didn't take enough for long enough. But it can also be just choosing the wrong plant. One way we can choose the wrong plant is this piece—is the energetics. I think that's one way that we can see aggravation of symptoms is because of that energetic incompatibility of the herb to the person. I'm not sure if that was that brief, but that's just a little overview of energetics there and its importance in formulation.

Thank you, Sajah. That was an excellent overview of energetics, and I think it'll be so helpful for many, and the respiratory system is certainly the perfect example to explore that. Really, when we look at it, herbal energetics are a framework within which we, herbalists, can effectively apply plants to unique humans, so thank you. I wonder, do you feel that flavor has a role in creating synergy in herbal formulations?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, on the one hand, the taste of an herb indicates a lot of its properties. You'll notice how I was talking about those expectorants, the taste of osha indicates its property. It indicates its energetics. It indicates its affinity. It indicates its action. I always tell people, people that are studying herbalism, taste your remedies. You've got to taste your plants and get to know them on that level so that you can experience their effect, so that you can start to really refine your palate. I think herbalists should be like a sommelier. I mean, an herbalist should have a very sophisticated palate to decipher the layers of taste within a plant. I think that's a really important skill to develop. That's a practice that I have every day, which I'll talk about probably a little bit later. But I also want to note that taste is important from a compliance perspective, especially when it comes to formulating your herbal teas. My opinion on this has changed over time. I always have my thoughts and opinions about things, and I always am willing to admit when I'm wrong or when my thoughts and opinions can evolve and change. I think that's an important characteristic to have. This is one where I've changed a bit. I used to be a little bit of a stickler in regards in that I basically was like, tough. It doesn't taste good, tough, too bad. I'm not giving you this herb because it's supposed to taste good. I'm not telling you to sprinkle it on your cereal in the morning. Obviously, I can't say this to clients, but in my mind, it's like, it's medicine. It's medicine. Take your medicine. It's not food, it's medicine. It's not meant to taste good. People don't like that. If you give them something just horrendously bitter to take every day, they might do it for a little bit, but people end up getting tired of it. I think people almost experience, I don't know, bad taste fatigue. I don't know what to call it, especially if it's teas. Tinctures can be foul tasting. You could put it in a little water, you could dilute it down. There's ways around it. Put it in with a little syrup or whatever. That's actually a pretty traditional way amongst North American traditions. They use syrups a lot, compound syrups. But tea formulas, man, you got to reserve your good tasting herbs for teas. I always like to tell the story of a student I had who couldn't figure out why her client wasn't drinking her herbal tea. This is in class, and I was like, well, what was the tea? She's like, well, she's really anxious and nervous. I gave her tea of motherwort and skullcap and blue vervain and hops. I was just like, okay, let's brew a cup. We had all the herbs, and we brewed a cup, and passed it around, and everybody was just like, oh! Those are some horribly bitter herbs. Even the diehard herbalist is not going to be able to drink that in copious amounts every day. That was a really good learning in that moment for that student and then for the whole class of like, yeah, if an herbalist isn't going to be able to drink a cup of it, your client's definitely not going to be able to drink a cup of it. This is something where I have flexed a little bit more, integrate a little more flexibility over the years and been more mindful of in my formulations, in that if there's herbs that I know are decidedly foul tasting, I will make sure they go in the tincture formula. If there's herbs that taste really good, I actually don't really compound them that much in tincture formulas. I don't use lemon balm that much in tincture form for clients anymore because it tastes so good. If I want my client to take lemon balm, I'm going to have them put it in their tea. Same is true for things like peppermint or linden. There's all these herbs that actually are pleasant on the palate, and I try to reserve those ones for the teas. I think taste, to me, there's the two sides of it. On the one hand, as an herbalist, it's really important to get to know your herbs. You can decipher their properties from taste, but then from a client perspective and a formulation perspective, having it be somewhat palatable does increase compliance. And then know which herbs taste good. And put a few of them into your teas. It's good to keep those ones in your back pocket. Know which herbs taste real good. A lot of your carminatives are really great like that. Fennel, peppermint, anis, holy basil, cinnamon, cardamom, clove, a lot of those mulling spices, a lot of those ones. Use those to make your stuff taste a little bit better. The sweet herbs, your licorice, stuff like that. Good to know those ones.

Sajah, we know that when people are starting out as herbalists creating formulas, they tend to create things we refer to as kitchen sink formulas. How do you avoid stacking herbs like dishes in the sink and instead creating formulas that have overlapping actions that add value instead?

Yeah, that's a good question. It's so easy to just throw herbs willy-nilly into a bottle and call it a formula. I always like to say that formulation needs to be approached strategically—that word to me is key. Your formula should be strategic. In order for it to be strategic, I think it needs to follow a process. I outlined my process a bit earlier. I think if you follow that process, it helps you choose your herbs more intentionally. Every herb needs to fulfill... I think one of the best ways to avoid a scattered formula or a kitchen sink formula is that you should be able to justify why an herb is in that formula with at least two reasons, optimally more than that. It should serve multiple functions in the formula. So that's, I think, one good thing to keep on your radar. I think another thing that's good to keep on your radar when you're putting formulas together is, are you adding that herb in there because it fits the person or not? Sometimes people just put an herb in there like, oh, well, I always put this herb with that herb. And it's like, well, but does that really fit the person? I think it can be a little easy to get... I mean, especially when you've been doing it a while, I think sometimes it can be easy to get a little lazy with formulations. Like, oh, yeah, I was just going to have your pre-done things. And this is my digestive formula. And it's just like, give it to them. And it's like, well, no. Make the formula fit the person. The formula has to match what specifically is going on for the person. So that's important. I think one of the best things for a newer herbalist to keep in mind when they're starting to put together formulas is think in terms of pairs and triplets. Don't think in terms of needing to build out this ginormous, massive thing all at once. Think through, what are you trying to accomplish? Really think that through. What are you trying to accomplish? Where in the body does your herbs need to go? What do they need to do when they get there? Your affinities and actions. Now, go and study those herbs. Go to those actions. Look at your Materia Medica listings. Don't just pick an herb with that action willy-nilly. Really think and always think when you're reading that, when you're studying that herb and trying to decipher if it's good for that person, that's the question you needed to ask. You need to ask, does what this herb does match that person? If not, then don't use it. Go find another herb that has that property, as I mentioned, with the expectorants. If you're reading about osha and you're like, oh, osha, this might be a good herb, and you're like, oh, osha is hot, pungent, stimulant expector, and it's warming and drying, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, oh, wait a minute. This person's got a really hot, dry cough. That's not the right expectorant for them. Okay, we're not going to use that. And now that helps you refine, okay, I need to find more of those moistening expectors, those soothing expectorants. Now you can refine it from there. I think you should be able to accomplish what you need to accomplish, in my opinion, with seven herbs or less. I tend to formulate not much more than seven herbs. That, to me, should be sufficient. I think if you select your herbs really well, you should be able to get it done with seven herbs, like in a tincture formula, for example. Sometimes we do tinctures and teas. Sometimes that might be four or five herbs in a tincture and maybe three to five herbs in a tea. That's fine. But usually in one from. I usually don't use more than seven herbs in a tincture formula or more than seven herbs in a tea formula. I like to keep those simple. I think as simple as possible, you can make your formulas, the better, so long as they cover all the needs of the person.

We are absolutely on the same page there. I rarely ever formulate with more than seven herbs, and it's because I feel like I lose track of what the herbs are doing in the formula and where the formula is going.

Yeah. Sajah, I am wondering if you are up for playing a little rapid fire game of favorite herb pairings for body system.

Oh, okay. Yeah, let's do it. That sounds like fun.

All right, let's start nervous system.

Oh, well, my favorite pair in the nervous system definitely is milky oats and skullcap or milky oats, St. John's wort. I use those, I use that triplet a lot. Yeah, very nice.

Yeah, trophorestorative triplet there for the nervous system. Love that. All right. Musculoskeletal system.

Yeah. Well, if we're talking about musculoskeletal pain, one of my favorite herbs there would be Piscidia erythrina, or Jamaican dogwood. I like Jamaican dogwood with black cohosh. It's nice. I also like Jamaican dogwood with Pedicularis—densiflora is the species I've used the most there for musculoskeletal. Yeah, love those two. Those are good.

I'll piggyback off of that with corydalis and Jamaican dogwood.

Yeah, that's a really good pair, too. Yeah.

All right. How about cardiovascular system?

Well, I like hawthorn and Tilia. Yeah, that's a good pair.

All right. Respiratory system.

I like the osha licorice combo. I've used that one quite a bit, but I'm also a real big fan of mullein. I like mullein a lot. I think it's a nice, complex remedy. Mullein and elecampane is quite nice. I like those two together.

I love it. Thank you, Sajah. That was so much fun.

Yeah.

All right. So back from our rapid fire break, let's talk a little bit more about catalysts and how you use them to synergize a formula. Can you define what you mean by catalyst?

Yeah, absolutely. When I think about a catalyst, I think about that third component in the formula. You did call it earlier a synergist. For me, a catalyst is something that is bringing the formula together, also to create greater efficacy within. Yeah. I tend to think of that... Yeah, I guess as I explained it earlier, I tend to think of that bit as, well, circulatory stimulation. The way I was taught at Bastyr was they refer to it as a driver, like an herbal driver, something that will basically typically enhance digestion and absorption, but also drive circulation. I just think of circulatory stimulants here quite a bit. In very small amounts, like 1-2% of the formula oftentimes does the trick. I think the universal here would be something like cayenne. It's very nice. I also like ginger there. It's nice. I use prickly ash a lot. I like prickly ash because it is also a bioenhancer, so it will aid absorption as well. But it's just a very nice circulatory stimulant. But sometimes I'll add a circulatory stimulant that has a specific area of the body that it targets. For example, if I want to move a formula to the kidneys, I might use a small amount of juniper because it moves blood. If I want to stimulate blood flow to the lungs, well, osha, again, is a good circulatory stimulant. A lot of people think of it just as a lung herb, but it moves blood pretty good. If I want to drive blood to the brain, I really like rosemary. If I want to move blood to the abdominal region, I like angelica. I also think of circulatory stimulant to a particular organ system is a nice way of thinking about it. Then oftentimes, the moistening effect, again, is one that I think is really, really important to think about because so many herbs are drying. I think this is why licorice is called the great harmonizer. A lot of times people will say, oh, licorice harmonizes the formula because it's sweet and makes it taste good. Yeah, that's part of it. Honestly, I think it's because most herbs are dry. They make you sweat more, they make you pee more, they make you poop more, they make you secrete more. It's just like they make things leave the body, which leaves you more dry. I always like to quiz people, like name me 20 drying plants, and it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, no problem. Name me 20 moistening plants, and it's like that's a little bit of a tougher one to do, right? I mean a lot of people can do it, but it's a little tougher. I think it's really cool herb in that way because it is a profound plant, in my opinion. I think licorice is a very profound plant. It has a universal constitutional effect on the entire system, whereas some other moistening agents maybe are a little more organ-specific, or maybe they're... Or in the case of tincture formulas, incompatible, really, or not incompatible, but less compatible for tincture formulation if we think of something like marshmallow root, it's thick, it's slimy, it's demulcent. Yeah, you can make a tincture out of it. I just think it's better as a tea. I like licorice, too, because it tinctures very well. Anyways, yeah, catalyst. Catalyst, that's a good word. I've never thought of using that word, but I like that word. It's good.

Yes, it's very nice. All right. Well, I'm glad to share it with you. I do think that that catalyst though, everything you said really hit home for me, too. I think that it is an important balancer in some ways where it's like, oh, if this formula is too warming, we can add a cooling herb in there, too, or obviously, as you spoke, the moistening component. I'd love you to share about phytochemistry in relation to formulation and synergy. Obviously, we have some components and constituents that don't really play well together. How do you work with phytochemistry in your formulation for synergy.

Yeah, totally. Well, I don't really think too much of phytochemistry when I'm compounding formulas, when it comes to the medicinal effect. I'm not like, oh, this formula really needs some rutin and hesperidin. You know what I mean? I don't really like, oh, I really need this compound in there. I don't often think in those terms. I think it's really exactly what you said is that there are certain biochemical incompatibilities amongst constituents when you are formulating them, especially in tincture formulas. The main ones that I am always trying to keep in mind, well, as I mentioned, you have herbs that are very rich in polysaccharides, like mucilaginous polysaccharides, like we find in Althaea officinalis, or marshmallow root. Those polysaccharides will precipitate out if the percentage alcohol gets too high. If you're wanting to put marshmallow in a formula with other herbs that have very high percentages of alcohol, you do run the risk of precipitating those polysaccharides out, i. e. they turn solid, they drop out of solution, and the whole thing just becomes ruined, essentially. The other one that happens there would be the biochemical incompetence compatibility between astringents or tannin-containing herbs and alkaloid-containing herbs. Tannins tend to bind to alkaloids. This is something that we want to be cautious with. This is why many times when herbs that are rich in tannins are prepared as tinctures, oftentimes, the person making the preparation will add, say, 10% glycerin to that tincture in order to keep those tannins in solution. But that doesn't necessarily prevent them from binding to the alkaloid. One example of this—actually, this is something I came up against the other day—I was working on a monograph for my program, Materia Medica Monthly on meadowsweet, Filipendula ulmaria, which definitely has some astringency and some tannins to it. One thing that herb is very commonly used for is gastric ulcers. As an astringent and as an herb that can provide a bit of pain relief, the salicylates and things like that. Another herb very commonly used for gastric ulceration is goldenseal. And goldenseal is quite rich in alkaloids, berberine, amongst others. Meadowsweet has some tannins in there. It's very tempting to want to put meadowsweet with goldenseal. Meadowsweet does not combine very nicely with goldenseal. If you get the ratios, if the ratios are not right, those tannins will bind to the alkaloids and you'll end up with a little bit of a biochemical incompatibility. Those are the main ones that I tend to think of in terms of putting herbs together in a bottle. There are some other incompatibilities that are important to consider. Again, with things like tannins and some polysaccharides, we want to take it separate from other medications that may be affecting absorption and things like that. But as far as actually compounding, those are the main ones that I tend to think of. There might be others that I can't think of them off the top of my head. I do think that preparation plays a role here, too. When we're utilizing marshmallow root, a cold infusion is going to be high in mucilage. We're not going to add a high astringent plant to that. Obviously, there will be a problem. We may be able to then instead, if we want to see an astringent action, work with a tincture formula instead.

Exactly. If you do want to use herbs that are incompatible, that's where differentiating your tincture from your tea or your tea and your powder capsules or whatever it is that you're giving them can be a good way. That is where powders and capsules can be pretty nice because you don't run the risk of that problem in the putting together of those herbs in some menstruum.

I think that's a really important point, Sajah. Thanks for bringing that up. My next question to you is, do you see any risk of unintended potentiation in herbal synergy? Unintended potentiation amongst herbs themselves? Yeah, I think, can you take an herbal action of a plant far beyond what your expectations are? So that unintended potentiation, which we usually see more so in herb-drug interactions, but have you seen that risk in plant formulation?

Yeah, some. I would say the main one that I've seen the most is people just taking too strong of nervines during the daytime and feeling kind of tired. Maybe they some anxiolytic type formula, and maybe the herbs are just a little bit too hypnotic or sedative, and it calms them down a little too.. you know, they're taking it at 9:00 AM, and lo and behold, they're feeling a little tired all day. I've seen that some. Definitely seen some in the respiratory system. It can sometimes be easy to overdo it on stimulant expectorants and irritate the cough a little bit too much. Seeing that in timing of also an example of this would be taking herbs that maybe have a diuretic property too late, and then that interferes with sleep because you've got to get up to urinate frequently. Let's see. Certainly, I've seen this, too, with bitter herbs. Sometimes if you combine bitters that are way too strong and you make the bitters a little bit too strong, you can lead to some gastric upset. If you do too much gentian, it's like if you got gentian and artichoke and organ grape and all these really strong bitters and you take too much of it, sometimes that can upset the stomach a little bit. I do think there is the ability to do that. I think it just comes down to... I think a good general rule of thumb for herbalists is if you can accomplish a task with a mild herb, don't use a strong herb. If you can get it done with dandelion root, don't use gentian. If you can get it done with cleavers, don't use poke.

root. I think that's a really good rule of thumb to follow. If you can get it done with diet, don't even use herbs. I think there's scales of intervention, and I think this is in accordance with the principles of vitalism, which is use the mildest intervention possible to get the desired result. Because the stronger herbs that you use, they tend to have an impact on the vital force of the person more strongly. Especially if someone's really, really sick, you want to preserve their vitality as much as possible. So that can be a factor there with that.

It also can be a matter of dosage, too. So sometimes if people, you know, oh, this had too strong of an effect, yeah, maybe it comes down to the herbs selected and the way they're formulated. It can also just come down to, hey, you just took too much of it. Drop your dose down.

Yeah. Absolutely. I think that was a really important point you made, though, Sajah. We want to use the gentlest remedy possible for the person. Sometimes that looks like food interventions, right? Or eating more strawberries to tone your cardiovascular system, your venous system, versus a low-dose botanical that may do the same.

My last interview question for you is, do you have any case studies you could share where changing just one herb synergistically transformed a formula's effect, revealing this formulatory synergistic principle in action?

Yeah. Oh, boy. Let me think through here. Well, I think a more recent one I had was just in an acute situation with an acute urinary tract infection, where the... Let's see. I can't remember the whole formula that was being used, but what I would say was... And what I've noticed with acute infection of mucosal membrane organ systems, like the respiratory system or the urinary tract, is that sometimes the energetics can change quickly depending on the herbs used.

I had administered a formula to someone with an acute UTI. I was being a bit aggressive with it because they were starting to show a bit of flank pain, which would indicate that that infection might be starting to creep up into the kidneys. It was still quite low, so I was having them keep an eye on it. It was like, if you start to really experience kidney pain, you need to go to the doctor because a kidney infection is really serious, and they, at that point, generally just need to get on antibiotics or need to be very aggressive with the herbs. But I usually treat those things pretty seriously.

Anyways, I had administered the formula. That net formula had a pretty warming effect. It was a much more net warming, stimulant, diuretic, antiseptic type formula. After a few days, they started to experience a bit more of heat in the urine, more of what some might refer to as scalding urine. I ended up swapping some of those remedies out. I definitely pulled juniper from the formula. I definitely... What else was in there? Juniper is the only one I can really quite remember off the top of my head. But I ended up increasing the amount of urinary demulcents to soothe and cool things down. We ended up adding corn silk, Zea mays. We ended up adding a separate powder of marshmallow to moisten the mucosa. I remember also at that point, there was a small amount of pink tinge to the urine, which would indicate a small amount of bleeding. From that, we added yarrow to aid in the minor amount of bleeding, to astringe the urinary tissue. Let's see. Zea mays, yarrow, that's what I can remember off the top of my head. I'm really not great at remembering specific formulas used. But I can remember those were some of the swap outs that I did, and that really improved things for sure. Definitely within a day, scalding urine went away. Oh, cleavers, too. Cleavers, very specific for scalding urine. Within a day, the scalding urine decrease, the flank pain started to decrease. Within a few days, the infection was clear. They didn't end up having to get on antibiotics.

It's just encouraging that downward bearing quality is really, really important for UTIs. Urinary tract and the respiratory system are mirror images of one another. If you think you have your kidneys, your ureters, your bladder, your urethra, start with urethritis and then cystitis and then coming up the ureters into the kidneys. It's like you want to discourage the upward movement in a UTI. You want to move the vital force down. That's why flushing treatments, diuretics, really, really important. But that's a mirror image of the respiratory system where here you have the lungs, you have the bronchials, you have the trachea. With the respiratory system, you want to encourage the upward movement. You don't want it to move farther down. That's usually how I assess the progression of those types of situations. Is it moving up or is it moving down? And is that the direction I want it to move?

That was a recent one where definitely the energetics of the tissues changed pretty quickly in the response to warming, pungent, volatile oil containing herbs, and then swapping those out, more cooling, soothing demulcents. I think this is the key thing that herbalists have to keep in mind is that situations change. It's not uncommon for formulas to need to be modulated as the case progresses. Don't get stuck on, This is your formula, and this is what you need to take. As the case changes, your formula should change with the person.

I think it's important to mention that just because your formula has to change It doesn't always mean you've failed. Sometimes it does. Sometimes you just don't get it right. Sometimes you're just not going to get it right, and that's okay. I've been doing this for 15 plus years. I still don't always get it right the first time around. So go easy on yourself for all the listeners out there. If you mess up, just know that, guess what? Everybody messes up every once in a while. That doesn't mean you're a failure. It doesn't mean you need to throw in the towel and quit. It doesn't mean you're unqualified. It means you're a human being that made a mistake and you alter your theory of what's going on for this person. You adjust your formula, you see how they respond to it. Actually, that's part of the intake process. How the person responds to your formula further clarifies and refines your understanding of what's going on for them. If they respond really well, great. That further solidifies your understanding of what's going on. If it aggravates it, I mean, not great, but great in terms of, well, now you've got some more clarity about what the proper direction to go into should be. Sometimes that happens in a matter of days with really acute situations. Sometimes that happens over a period of six weeks for maybe more long-standing chronic conditions. But I think the premise of knowing that you should modulate your formula, you should adjust your formula to match the changes that are occurring within the person? That's an important principle because you're following the vital force. You're following how the vitality is moving through that person as your herbs are adjusting things, as certain things resolve, as certain things improve, as certain things maybe get aggravated, you're just going to finetune it. You're going to dial it in. I think that's just part of the process.

Absolutely. I think that we are continuing our information gathering. Post that initial consult, the follow-ups are the most important parts. We are learning what is working, what is not. Then we're moving forward from there, tweaking things as necessary to support those individual peoples with the beautiful properties that plants have to offer.

Sajah, that was really informative and lovely to hear a case study of yours. I am hoping that now you will share for our audience members where they can find you out in the world to learn more from you and your school.

Oh, yeah. Well, we are on Facebook, Instagram, @evolutionaryherbalism. We have our podcast that can be found on your favorite podcast channel, Spotify, Apple, whatever, which is The Plant Path. Then our website is EvolutionaryHerbalism. Com, where we've got tons of free content over there available, more in-depth workshop series and things like that you can sign up for. We do a weekly, generally weekly free content to the herbal community. Then we have certain periods of time where we do more in-depth free workshops and enrollment periods in our courses. Then we also have our product line, which is Natura Sophia Spagyrics, which is our spagyric product line, which is all the alchemical preparations of the plants. That's at NaturaSophiaSpagyrics. Com

Thank you so much, Sajah, for your teachings and sharing all of your wonderful herbal knowledge with us today. I think that our audience members got so many great takeaways from this session. It was a real awesome opportunity. I'm just super stoked to be here and stoked that we got to meet at the International Herbal Symposium and got to hang out. It's just really cool to be a part of the event. I just really appreciate everything that you all do over there at Herbal Academy, and I just feel honored to be a part of your conference this year. So thank you so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Sajah.