Transcription
"I'm at the point where it's like, I'm not attracted to you right now."
"That's a difficult thing to say, but there's probably more to say than just that."
"Like, I am just not attracted to her?"
"I don't know if there's such a thing as 'just not attracted.' There's something to say here."
"There has been, like, this sense of entitlement in the past that has been, like, at the core of our problems. And—"
"[Host] Tell me about that."
"Lauren is the breadwinner in our family. In the very beginning, it was like I was her assistant because I didn't have, like, I was figuring my shit out job-wise."
"It's not like we had a conversation and I'm like, 'You are my assistant.'"
"No, I didn't say that. But that's how you treated me."
"But since you're not the one making money, then—"
"Then I should be doing—"
"Do other things. You should help."
"It was expected that, like, I was gonna get up every morning before her and make the coffee and give it to her. And when she came home from work, I was gonna have dinner on the table and, like, I was gonna do all the laundry and, like, that I was gonna be there to do everything."
"I don't think that's totally true. I think there was a bit of, like, I'm trying to help us survive and, like, get this new job and make money, and I needed help. We have struggled with this. I felt, to an extent, that yes, if someone's going to sacrifice some time, it makes sense for the person who's not earning, like, close to as much, like, not even close to as, like, he was not, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't earning, wasn't keeping us afloat even in the slightest, that that made sense. I have—"
"Well, there's not. I mean, you didn't invent that paradigm, right? That money equals power, and money equals some privilege in the relationship."
"And it is something that we have talked through and I have worked on, and it has been very, very, very hard to switch that mindset. In the past, I would say, entitlement, yes. Today, it just feels like it kind of comes from a place of, 'I don't know how to keep up.' I'm nervous when there's dishes around."
"Because you don't wanna do them. Can I ask a question?"
"I mean, like, it's not because I don't want to do them. I don't mind doing the dishes, I just don't have that much time that often. And I don't know."
"[Host] And maybe you don't feel like it's your job because you are more of the breadwinner?"
"Ding, ding, ding! If we're working, let me ask you this: if you and I are both working the same amount of hours, whose responsibility is it to clean the house and to make sure shit gets done?"
"Ideally, we should both sweat it."
"When does that happen?"
"Can I just ask? I know it's not a PC question to ask, but, and does it matter how much money each person is bringing?"
"I think, in my gut, I feel like, yeah."
"He sent me a text last week about our sex life that he's not very happy with."
"How was the text phrased, Dru?"
"I just told her that it's nonexistent. I feel like I'm not wanted."
"Meaning, you're feeling unwanted and—"
"And feeling like I don't even know how to even go about sex with her anymore, because there's been plenty of times where she's denied it or she gives an attitude about it, and she's just like, 'Oh, fine. Okay.' You know, it's not even about the physicality of the sex, it's more of the feeling that you get from your partner from that."
"So, Tashira, how was it to receive this text?"
"Oh, I was a little annoyed, to be honest, and I responded to him two days later and I was honest with him."
"Two days, you just didn't respond?"
"No, I didn't. No, I didn't respond. I didn't respond."
"What was going on inside you during those two days?"
"You know, it's difficult to say out loud that I find that he's more attracted to me than I am of him. And, you know, his weight, and I know that he has an issue with it as well because we've only had sex, maybe three times, completely naked. I mean, I've been completely naked, you know, but he hasn't."
"Dru, you don't get undressed?"
"Yeah, I'm just wearing my t-shirt. I'm just used to it. Not a hundred percent comfortable with my weight, but, you know, down the line, during our relationship, she said some bad things in an argument about my weight, so I don't understand how you could make me feel any comfortable in wanting to get fully naked. So, yeah. But to come to the actual point of it, she's just not attracted to me because of my weight. I don't know if it's because of the weight that maybe I gained a couple of weeks after the baby was born and we moved in, or maybe she's just never been comfortable with it. I don't know. She needs to figure it out. Because if she's not attracted, then that's that. Because, obviously, if there's no attraction, there's no relationship. And I'm at that point where I'm just, every time, it's just a new issue. If it's not, we can't talk about it. She feels like she can't talk to me. Or if it's not, the resentment of having the baby, or if it's not the resentment of moving in together, and now it's the weight thing. So, every time, it's just a new thing, you know? And I'm just tired at this point. I really am."
"Tashira, it does, it does seem like you— I don't actually get a real sense that you're invested in the relationship. Am I wrong?"
"No, not to— No, you're not wrong."
"So, what are we doing?"
"I mean, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to work on this. I mean, like I said before—"
"I think your way of bringing yourself into, let's say, this kind of therapy might be similar to what you're doing in the relationship, which is, you show up and your entire message seems to be, 'I got nothing.' 'I have no wish here.' Which might be, simply, that indeed you've got nothing, you don't have any interest, or it might be your way of positioning yourself. And I think that's something for you to think really hard about."
"Okay."
"[Host] Hi."
"Hi."
"[Host] How are you two?"
"Could be better. I'm feeling a little bit cooped up. You know, most kids' schools are closed, so they're home all day, every day."
"Oh, boy!"
"I felt like it was just going crazy. And then he told me he would be here all day with me working from home, and I was just so happy. But my frustration level with him hasn't changed. I still feel like I wanna kill him. (kids shouting) I feel like, definitely, because he's home, I have more direct contact with him, so I see what he's doing, like, every day, all day. And he's been spending a lot of time wasting his time. And at the same time, you know, I'm working on my company, and then there's the kids, and the house cleaning, and just everything that goes along with that. And then when I, like, see that, you know, he's spending hours watching TV or talking to his friends, I just feel very taken advantage of."
"Okay. We'll get back there. I wanna hear Michael's perspective on this."
"She doesn't know what exactly it is I do, and she doesn't know what I'm able to do while I'm doing that. I just feel so annoyed that, like, why do I have to go into the weeds as to what I'm able to do?"
"You literally do nothing. Do you realize that right now, if I worked one day a week, which I'm doing now, I would make more than you make in an entire week? You literally do nothing. You are so lazy. Your existence is worthless right now. It's absolutely worthless."
"I wanna make a suggestion."
"The kids are all dirty. Like, I don't understand, did you give Livia a bath today? He seemed to be wearing the same thing as last night. Surprise, surprise. Not a surprise at all, actually."
"Michal."
"You know what that means? Anything that wasn't junk."
"Michal, I need you to engage with me in a way because we can't have you just keep repeating yourself. I really get it. But do you want some help in changing things?"
"Yeah, but I don't think that things are gonna change by him just constantly saying, 'I disagree. I disagree. She doesn't see me. She doesn't see what I do.' You know what? You want me to not see what you do? Stop doing everything, because you literally do nothing. So, just stop working. Stop it. I don't need you anymore. Okay? That's what you can actually give to this family."
"Michal, you are unraveling. Michal. Can you engage with me? I understand what's frustrating you. But the way you're doing it is not working. It's really not working. But Michal, what if you were, for a while, not in the business of handling Michael? Hold on."
"What if we did it the opposite and he tried a little bit to be more like me and see how hard it is to do all the things that I just do for him and for this family?"
"Honestly, I think that I probably do more for the family than she does. I think that she's—"
"[Michal] I'm sorry, but this is like such a bullshit."
"Hold on one second."
"Like, when I hear something like that, I literally wanna smack him."
"I'm not managing to have much of an impact. And I don't know if it's partially due to this technology, but it's very difficult for me to intervene at all. I feel like either you don't hear me or you're not interested or you're too invested in this thing that the two of you do and you don't actually want help from the outside."
"I do want help. I wanna try, I would be happy to try to do this."
"Okay. So, if you started doing a few things that you're watching Michael doing and you're feeling envious of, what would that be?"
"Well, I feel like he spends a lot of time watching TV, talking to his friends, not really taking care of the kids, but just kind of hanging around and playing with them. So, I wanna do all those things."
"Okay. So, can I now give you kind of a doctor's prescription that every day, you're taking two hours a day to do that? Two hours a day. (Michal laughs)"
"How am I gonna fit it into my schedule?"
"I'm serious."
"[Michal] Okay."
"And whatever you want done during those two hours, dump it onto Michael, and Michael will have to do it his way."
"[Michael] Right."
"[Michal] Okay. Fine."
"Okay."
"We've met within the context of an open relationship at a time in our lives where, you know, I was exploring things and he was exploring different things, and we kind of met."
"Generally, what kind of things?"
"A more open sex life."
"More sexuality."
"Yeah."
"Sexuality. We're both exploring sexuality."
"So, he and I are, separately, serial monogamous, right? From one relationship to another, to another. And I think, for both of us, we realized sex doesn't have to mean one person for the rest of your life. It can happen within the confines of an emotionally committed relationship. And I think that's what attracted both of us to each other. Right? And created that bond."
"Did you bring other people into your shared sex life?"
"Yeah."
"Yeah."
"And how did that work for the two of you?"
"Yeah, I think, at the time, like, I always looked at it as we were kind of our exploration buddies, you know, and that's kind of where the relationship flourished from there."
"And did that stop at some point?"
"So, boundaries became a huge issue. And we did—"
"So who wanted what kind of boundaries?"
"I think when we first got together, the boundaries were that we only dated other people together as a couple. And then, you know, just scheduling issues became difficult, whatever, and so, she started dating someone on her own. So then, you know, we decided to try that for a while."
"But then his boundaries were, 'Okay, you can't go on long walks with them, you can't cuddle. You can't do this—'"
"Well, that's going way back."
"—you can't do that."
"Hold on, hold on. Meaning, you can't do things that are—"
"I can't do monogamous relationship things with other people."
"You can do pure sexual."
"Just pure sex. Show up for the sex, put your clothes on and come home."
"[Host] Got it."
"And for me, that's not sexy to me. I don't operate, you know, like that. So, he had a problem with how I was going to be intimate with someone else. But then when we were looking for other people to date, he was having a hard time, because most guys will respond to me, but for guys, it's much more difficult. So, sometimes, I would help him write the notes to the prospects, right? And it worked. But I think when he started seeing other people, there was that switch that flipped, and all of a sudden, 'Oh, I can do this with them. Oh, I can do that with them. Oh, that's okay. This is okay.' So, it's a free for all now. So, he would disappear for three to four hours, not check-in, no text, nothing. And I think, at that time, it wasn't so much I was jealous, it was just, 'Hello, we're in a relationship where we have other people, so you need to be more mindful of who your primary is.' This is someone who told me I can't do X, Y, and Z, and all of a sudden, he's out doing X, Y, and Z."
"You were upset?"
"Yeah. The deeper issue is really—"
"Feeling left out."
"I feel fucking left out. And that's not what this relationship is about. That's not what—"
"You're smiling because—"
"Because the irony is, like, she's saying she feels left out. It's always people trying to include her."
"I love how you don't take any accountability for how you make me feel. It's not about them. Okay?"
"What would you want Will to say? What would be a way that he could convey to you that he is taking some responsibility? What would it sound like?"
"I guess I would love it if he says, 'You know what? You are more important to me than all these other people.'"
"Is there a way that you can communicate to her that she is important? That she's actually the most important?"
"I feel like anytime I tell her how I feel about her, she just says, 'No, you don't. That's not how you feel.'"
"So, part of you feels defeated?"
"Yeah. I try to reassure her with words. She either calls it bullshit or says, 'No, you don't.' I, you know, try to show her with small actions and things and she says that's not enough or that's not good enough. This is what causes me probably the most stress and anxiety is this relationship is just trying to always figure out how to make her happy and always failing at that."
"[Host] Yeah."
"And yeah, I feel like I've racked my brain in this again, have lost countless hours of sleep over it and just trying to think of things to do and always coming up short."
"[Host] What are you hearing, Ping?"
"Honestly, this whole lot of whining."
"Oh, shit. Yeah. I think that's why I hear a lot too."
"Yeah. Because, you know, he makes it seem like I'm the shrew running around, 'Pay attention to me, pay attention to me. I need this, I need that.' And I don't."
"I don't think I said that."
"I'm a little concerned about what's happening right now. Are you thinking, for a second, about what Will is saying to you about his experience?"
"Yes."
"And your response to that is that is a whole lot of—"
"Whining."
"Whining? It's hard to know what to do in my seat with that response. If I can't rely on the two of you having some concern for each other, I don't know what we're doing here."
"But this growing resentment that I have for him, it's not from any one incident, it's from all of these incidents where I see him choosing himself, choosing his needs, putting his needs, putting someone else's needs in front of mine. So, you know what? Fuck you. All I hear is whining. I don't fucking care. I am the person that he can come home to, he can get comfortable, sit around and fart, and be himself. But he won't do that with other people. You know, he puts on his best self for other people, not for me."
"Right now, we're at a state where we haven't been intimate for a while. I think it's almost a year now."
"Yeah."
"So, I just looked at it as, you know, we have three options. One is that we just split up, and that's the worst case scenario. Open marriage would be the second route. She doesn't want that. So then the third case would be that we, you know, reconnect, and that's what we're hoping for."
"Reconnect physically?"
"Physically everything."
"Yeah. Kind of like rebuild everything, you know, find our way back to each other in a sense."
"Like, when we first met, I didn't think it was gonna get to this point, you know."
"What do you mean?"
"I didn't think that I was gonna marry you."
"She just thought she was gonna go around, get romantic."
"I thought it would still be a hoe. That's literally, I thought I was just gonna go out there and just party, and then I ended up meeting her and I was like, 'Oh, she's great.' And she's like, she fits, like, the ideal type of, you know, this is what a good wife would look like. And then, we both finished nursing school and it got more serious. You know, the next step was to get married, so we got married. The next step after that came the children. And then, I hit 40 and I just reflected back and I was like, 'Oh, shit, this is where I'm at.' Like, I want to see what else is out there, but she sees a marriage as, or a healthy marriage, as being just monogamous. I think a healthy marriage can be both, but she doesn't feel that way."
"I just feel like, to be intimate with someone, it takes a lot. So, for her, just to be like, 'Oh, I can be with you, I can be with you, I can be you,' it's like, where's the intimacy? Where's the real connection? Like, you're just gonna go and basically spread your legs anywhere you can, and that's okay, you know?"
"You're hurt by that?"
"That's why I always say, 'Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm the issue.' Because if you look at our marriage externally, it's great. Like, everybody sees her like she's an angel, (laughs) like she's so motherly. She just engulfs everything and is able to take care of everyone."
"But something about it is affecting—"
"Us."
"Us."
"Yeah."
"Yeah."
"Desire?"
"Yeah. I'm at the point where it's like, I'm not attracted to you right now."
"That's a difficult thing to say, but there's probably more to say than just that."
"Like, I am just not attracted to her?"
"I don't know if there's such a thing as 'just not attracted.' There's something to say here."
"I don't know."
"I feel like I'm, like— How do you say this? Those sleeping bags when you go camping, right? Okay. I'm just trying to get out the sleeping bag. That's exactly how it feels like. Like, it's nice, it's comfy. It's like, it keeps me warm. I can sleep in it, you know? It's safe."
"[Host] Yeah. I see. It's too safe. Too safe."
"I just wanna get out."
"Yeah, yeah. How are you feeling?"
"I feel hurt. I feel—"
"Hurt."
"Lost. I don't know."
"Lost, like you don't know what to do about all of this? Well, that's why the two of you're here."
"I think we're doing pretty well, pretty good, pretty well."
"It's weird. I feel like we are in a really good place. I do wonder if being in a really good place is just another way of pushing down, again, like the stuff that we don't wanna continue to look at."
"You know, we've had these really wonderful moments together. We had a lovely date the other night. You know, physically, things have been really very intimate and good. Good. Very good. But with that comes this, I think, a little bit of, like, 'Oh, is this too good to be?'"
"I think, for me, I guess I don't trust or know when I'm gonna feel fully forgiven by you. I don't know when it's all gonna come up again. Right? Like, I feel like when we're in a really good place, I wanna get comfortable, but then I'm not sure when all of a sudden, everything's gonna be thrown back at me."
"It seems to me that you are looking for a point that then we move past."
"I'm not looking for a point, I'm just anticipating that while we're good now, it doesn't mean we're not gonna have moments where we're not good. So, I'm anticipating that it's going to bring back, 'I don't trust you and...'"
"It might."
"Right. So, that is not, I'm not interested in doing that for the next 50 years."
"Right."
"I'm not interested in hearing about all the things that I've done wrong. Like, I am not interested in that being what is brought to the surface every time we are in some sort of a difficult situation. What needs to happen for you to have this not be part of our present anymore?"
"I might be thinking too much about the past."
"What are your thoughts about the past?"
"Why are you shaking your head?"
"Because it's frustrating, honey."
"What's frustrating?"
"He won't—"
"He won't what?"
"He won't talk about—"
"But he is talking."
"Well, you just rolled your eyes. But this is typical of us, right? That you're like, 'I'm ready, here we go. Let's get on my timeline. I'm ready to move on. I wanted this healing to happen. What does it take, let's do it. And I won't have to be responsible for, you know, about the pain that you feel, or whatever.'"
"No, that's not it is. Just that I don't like being caught off guard. Right? Like, I don't know—"
"But Molly, what my suggestion to you would be to create good conditions for talking or opening up a dialogue."
"So, like, I guess something that we could get into is that you have kind of said for a long time that the decisions that you made were about you and they weren't about me. And then, the other morning, to have you say, basically, some of your choices were kind of an 'F you' to me, were a way to, like, get me to react or get me to respond."
"What was your reaction hearing that?"
"I kind of felt included in a weird—"
"Not weird."
"—fucked-up way. Oh, it feels fucked-up that you're included in my infidelity."
"That's not weird."
"Right. Okay, I guess in my mind, I felt like the kid is sitting in the window totally by myself. And so, that's where I emotionally was. Like, okay, Molly is not thinking about me."
"Yeah."
"She's doing these things and not thinking about me, and that means she doesn't care about me."
"[Host] And that she will ultimately leave."
"And that she ultimately could leave, yeah. Yeah, to feel like kind of included was a different kind of feeling, which was welcome."
"It breaks you out of the narrative that you had as a kid."
"Yeah, that I'm—"
"And into this story and this family?"
"Yeah."
"We just signed a lease on a new apartment together."
"Yep."
"Not now, it'll happen in a few months."
"Yeah. Excited."
"And now, we're like—"
"Also nervous."
"[Kristi] Nervous. (laughs)"
"Very nervous."
"Can we just backtrack a little bit? So, the decision to move back in together, tell me about that."
"I think that, like—"
"I mean, have you been talking about it?"
"Not really, honestly."
"Not really."
"But, like, honestly, a lot of it's financially driven."
"Which actually, like, that's the primary motivating force for me too."
"Yeah."
"And that's a little scary that that's the motivating force."
"Yeah."
"That freaks me out a little bit. I'm thinking a lot about, like, this feeling I've had of independence, right? Of freedom. Like, how do I maintain that now in a shared space? And so, like, I felt good about the unit, I liked it, but I definitely saw in my head separate living spaces. Like, I saw that."
"What do you mean?"
"Like, a place for me to go at night and sleep, and, like, have my night routine. And that's why we kind of argued, we were arguing yesterday 'cause I really wanted a Murphy bed. I want a bed that I can pull down, and it's my bed, right?"
"But it's still one bedroom. It's still not a ton of space. Like, I don't know if I want a Murphy bed taking up a quarter of the one shared living space. And I was kind of envisioning that, like, we sleep in the same bed again. Like, if you don't wanna live with me, then why are we getting this one bedroom apartment?"
"Well, I do wanna live with you, but I don't really see a problem with having a separate bed space."
"Yeah. I don't know."
"Well, are you open to being flexible on that? Or is it I can only sign the lease if we—"
"No, I just don't think that makes a lot of— I don't know. I just don't— That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like, are we coming together or not?"
"Can you tell us something about how you're feeling about what Brock is saying? That he's suggesting that you sleep separately? How are you feeling about it?"
"I'm feeling sad that, like, you're not excited. It sounds like this is gonna be, like, what? You plugging your nose and swallowing this decision down. Like, I didn't think that it would be this huge negotiation to, like, sleep in the same fucking bed."
"I mean, you're getting mad but you're saying that underneath, it sounds like you're hurt?"
"Yeah."
"Because you're understanding it as a statement that Brock is—"
"I mean, it definitely feels like a rejection, obviously."
"A rejection of?"
"Being with me, loving me, wanting to be in partnership with me."
"I understand that when you interpret something as rejecting, it can make you kind of tight and protective of yourself. But I don't know if that's what's going on. So, maybe you can ask openly if that's what it's about."
"Yeah."
"It feels stupid to even ask 'cause I know you're gonna say that's not what it's about that you literally, it's so surface level for you that you just wanna sleep in your own space."
"Wait."
"Damn. Damn, girl."
"Okay."
"That's quite an assumption."
"Is that what's it about?"
"No, but what it is about is, like, the last couple years, I feel like I've grown so much as an individual and I know that you have too in our own spaces. And part of it is me, kind of, just being afraid of, like, losing that. And so, it's not a rejection of you. Like, I'm trying to, like, I'm really trying to preserve that part. Does that make sense?"
"Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. But I'm saying, like, moving into a one-bedroom apartment with me feels like us both compromising, us both agreeing to give up our individual spaces to come together. And it feels like I'm willing to do that, but you are not. And so, I'm here now, being like, 'What gives?' I'm just confused."
"Wait, do you feel like you're giving up autonomy too?"
"[Kristi] Yes. Yes. Willingly."
"But would you like to have that?"
"No, I'm giving some up to move into an apartment with you and it feels like you don't wanna do that same thing."
"Because we don't have to make that sacrifice. So, I don't really see it as a sacrifice 'cause it's not something we have to make."
"Oh my God. (sighs)"
"I've been wanting to connect Josh and my other partner, but having this nervousness of not doing it right, and, like, when I bring up things that hasn't gone well, and, like, feeling all the ways that I feel like I've let him down and I've let her down. And a situation happened again recently where my other partner had invited Josh to a party and asked me whether she should directly invite him or if I should do it. And like, instead of just saying, 'Aviva wanted to invite you,' I freak out, like, internally, and I don't know what to do, and it feels super stressful."
"It's interesting. The text message was literally like, 'I'd really like Josh to come. Do you wanna invite him or should I invite him directly?' Right? And now, we're here, the day of, and zero action has been taken, and it's like there's something here. Like, how do we resolve it? Are you sure you even want this? Like, actually, I'm not even upset anymore. I'm just trying to understand, like, what is the block here? And me getting upset, because I've been reflecting on it, I was like, 'It's definitely not gonna help anymore,' trying not to do that."
"And how did that go, that conversation?"
"I mean, I think it was a very good conversation even though it was incredibly painful and challenging. I really feel like I hit a bottom, actually, maybe two weeks ago or a week ago, or whatever, recently."
"What do you mean a bottom? What was there?"
"What was there? (Josh chuckles)"
"What was there?"
"I think just a perspective shift. I'm just in this very challenging, very dark place. I'm isolating myself. I'm very much stuck in this cycle of overwhelm. And then I feel like, from that point, I was like, 'Oh my God, I don't have plans with anyone at all going forward, period.' So, like, trying to make plans, being like, 'Oh my god, my relationships, I'm doing this in both of them.' I feel like I detached from being the main character of my own life. I was just kind of, like, completely in the froth flotation of existence."
"And what are you thinking?"
"I was really proud of, like, why did this for so long in terms of, like, this deeper reflection and pause that Josh is able to create. And then it makes me think, 'Okay, great, a lot of things that I wanted to solve are gonna be easier to solve.' Like, him and Laura, my girlfriend, they were like fire and fire together. They went through a messy breakup with each other and don't wanna really engage with each other, and that's hard for me."
"And do you have any thoughts about Lorena talking about not being kind of the main character of her own life?"
"Oh! Yeah. I mean, that happens. Sorry."
"Laura is on her mind, apparently, pretty clearly."
"Oh yeah, she just came back and I got to see her and I was okay."
"You are laughing because?"
"We are laughing because, like, you were, like, what am I thinking? And I was obviously thinking about Josh and Laura, like, my partner, my other partner, you know. And then you're like, 'Okay, how does that have—' And then you're like, you drew me back to how does Lorena not being the main character of her own life. I was like, 'Oh, wow! Okay.' Refocusing."
"It might also be playing out exactly what you're talking about."
"Interesting."
"Can you elaborate?"
"Which is that you very easily recede. The question to you is, what do you want?"