Transcription
You're listening to Psych with Mike. For more episodes, or to connect with the show with comments, ideas, or to be a guest, go to WWH I quit my comm. Follow the show on Twitter at Psych with Mike, or like the Facebook page at Psych with Mike.
Now, here's Psych. Welcome into the Psych with Mike library. This is Dr. Michael Mahon, and I'm here with Brett Newcomb. I am so glad to be here today because finally, we're gonna talk about this topic. I want to do it tomorrow. No, good. Today. I will be here long. What topic are we gonna talk about? Across the nation. I'm off mic. I keep on moving. Why do I keep doing that? Cuz you're kind of voice. Yeah, I'm trying to avoid accountability. I don't want to talk about this. Yeah, yeah.
So, we are gonna talk about procrastination. And something that, while we were researching this, I had sent you a couple of articles. And what, so, can I tell people that? Yeah, normally, when we prepare for these things, Mike comes up with some topics, or people suggest them to Mike, and then he does a little bit of research, and he sends that to me as a package that I review before I come over here, and then we talk about whatever. And he sent them to me this morning. I sent him last night. I sent them last night at nine o'clock. Have you checked the, the tag on your email? And, and, and what it's last night at nine o'clock. And what did it say? I think one of these links is broken. No, well, yes, one of the links in the packet was broken, which I resent. Yes, I know. But the original email said, "I am very sorry that this is so late." And I said, "I'm used to that." Okay. Don't worry about it. You didn't say that. But I did to myself. But you are used to it. Because why? Why are you used to it? You are one of the best procrastinators I've. I don't. Matt. Uh-huh. And your experience with that is when I had you in class for the very first time, twenty-five, four, seven years ago. Yeah. I had to give you an incomplete because you had to turn in your seminal paper that that was required for the finishing the class. Mm-hmm. And I think it was two years before I got that. Good times. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what you were doing those two years. It wasn't research. What I was doing was avoiding. Off and going back to the university and having the person who ran that program at the time take my transcript to the actual Board of Trustees to have part of it expunged so that I could be eligible to graduate. Yeah. Because they had a one-year limit on an incomplete, and you had to resolve. But somehow we managed to get around that. Well, what ended up happening was that the university at that point was really, really invested in their matriculation ratios. And so, I want to say that in English, they wanted people to graduate. Okay. Yeah. And so that's what's our goal. Yeah. Guy, that that was running the program came to me and said, "Hey, look, we really like these graduates." And is that, "Would you be willing to do this work if I could make you eligible?" And I was like, "Mmm, I really don't want to, but sure, whatever." And so he did his magic, and then, and then, and then I did the work. And I did, I got every single bit of the work that was required of me. And he came to me and he said, "If this guy does his pay, will you grade it?" Yeah. And I said, "Of course." You know. And so that's, that's how it happened. Yeah.
So, which brings us to the clear line discussion that we wanted to have. What's going on when somebody procrastinates like that? And one of the arguments is a fear of failure, right? If I try this and I'm not successful, I will fail, and then I have to own my failure. Again, hope people know I have a big F on my forehead. Another argument is fear of success. What if I jump over this hurdle and land on the other side? Then what do I? And I think those are both underlying motivators. And therefore, the concept of procrastination. Why, why do people procrastinate? And, you know, the cultural arguments are also love because are often because you're lazy. You just don't want to do anything. You just rather sit around and brand not accomplish this task or reach this goal or whatever the thing is. But there's a term that we learned years ago studying to be therapists was called a flight into sickness. One of the conditions that you need to be aware of is if people make progress in therapy until they reach a point of being ready to go. Yeah. We're finished. And you can go away. And they have developed a dependency on you as the therapist. And then once they connect to me, and so just before when they sense that you're starting to maneuver and say, "Well, you know, I think we're about finished here," they will have a relapse. Yes. Of some kind into negative or dysfunctional behavior that will then require them to stay in tune. And so it's a little dance. And it's called a flight into sickness and a, or a flight into failure. Because if I set myself the goal of being the only person in my family to ever graduate from college, and I'm within, you know, one or two activities of being able to graduate, and then I, that's beyond me. I'm out of college now. What do I do? Mm-hmm. I'm a sabotage my success. I'm gonna get kicked out of college. I may fail out of college. I may, you know, the dog ate my homework. Now, my fault had just happened. And therefore, I wasn't able to finish college. Right.
And so the articles that I had sent you made this, the articles that I had sent you made this argument that laziness is the psychological construct that is blamed for procrastination in our society. And I have clients who come to me all the time and say, "You know, I, I'm really lazy." Or, "My parents am really lazy." Or the parents say, "My child is really lazy." So you have an alarm that goes off. Yeah. Or something I say all the time. There's nobody. There isn't a lazy person in the world. You know why? Lazy people are dead. I mean, it's all about survival. Yeah. I mean, people are gonna do whatever you have to do. What they have to do to survive. And if you do what you have to do to survive, you're not lazy. Yeah. And then what we come to is whose rubric are we using? And his yardstick are we measuring with now? You may believe that your child is not living up to your expectations. That may be true. But that doesn't mean that they're lazy. My parents told me on a regular basis that, and actually a couple of my teachers did as well, in high school, "You're not smart enough to go to college. You need to find another career path. You need to go find this job or this job or this job." That you might have the competency. That was a real challenge to not internalize those messages. I was as bailed from my high school, and my principal, who was, he was a spitter. He doesn't close talk. A spitter. Yeah. And so he'd get right in your face, and he'd spit. It would come out of his mouth, and he was wagging his hand and his finger in front of me, telling me, "I've never called a full-time job. I'd never go to college." Right. Yeah. And then he expelled me. So maybe we need to be that way with our children more and tell them that they're gonna be failure, so they don't have any competency, that they're just awful. Well, I can tell you from experience that those repeated messages make it more difficult for you to succeed. At least I've made it up more. I mean, it may be my stubbornness. Going to say that you say that, and I have no idea. Yeah. Right. And, and, and you say that that gave you an incentive. Absolutely. And for some people, that may be true. For me, it made it harder for me to feel comfortable being able to embrace the reality of my own potential. Yeah. I've seen that with clients. Seeing both sides of that. Thirteen class over. So I think either one, not those messages, they were determined to overcome them. And then I've seen other clients that embrace those messages, and they were determined and managed to fail. To prove the message. Well, it goes back to the Johnny Cash song, "A Boy Named Sue." You know, at the end of the song, his dad tells him, "You ought to be thankful for the, you know, the guy and the greater all." Yeah. Because I'm the boy, I'm the sob that named you. See, right. And, and so for, yes, some people that does give them grit and determination. And then, you know, the parent can, at the end of their lives, take responsibility for that. Well, I'm the reason that you are the person you are today. But I think that's hollow. Along there, those people achieve in spite of their parents, not because of their parents. But I also think the opposite is true. So I don't think we should inspire at as a parenting technique. Oh, right. And I know, and I know you weren't, but I'm just saying that, you know, for everybody out in the audience, we're not saying that that is a good thing. Some people use that as motivation, but a lot of other people suffer from it. I was one person who suffered from it. It made it harder for me. I grew up thinking, "Oh, you know what? I think I'm smart enough to actually do some things." But the messages I got were, "You don't know who you are. You're a no-good sob. You don't have the right to believe in yourself." And it made it harder for me to be able to succeed. And I've always said that procrastination is a fear of success, not a fear of failure. And the reason that I believe that that is true is because if you are procrastinating, you are, by definition, failing. You are not hitting the targets that are making that would make you successful. So I believe it's easier perceptually, psychologically, for people to fail. I believe it's like climbing a ladder. And if you climb to the top of a ladder and you fall off, you're gonna get really hurt. If you fall off the first rung, you're fine. I believe that psychologically, people feel more comfortable falling off the lower rungs of the ladder. But they believe that they're gonna fall off. So do they learn to avoid ladders? Exactly. Yeah. They learn to, you know, ignore these ladders that were handed them by other people. Yeah. So we had a previous. Right. Exactly. So just me. So because if it's important to them, like playing video games, they may be very adept. Right. And they may climb way up high on the ladder. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
So we talked in a previous podcast about how our society sets standards and goals and tries to imbue us with them. So we internalize those and markers by which we measure our success. And one of those is how much money do you have? How do you make? One is what job do you? How do you acquire status that our culture values? And that we try to propagandize our children from birth to buy this set of standards and measure themselves against it. Mm-hmm. So we spend a lot of time in therapy dealing with people who cannot fit the silhouette that son was drawn for them, or who don't want to fit this silhouette. What if I'm different? What if I don't want to be a physician? My parents want me to be a doctor, but I'm phobic in response to blood. Can be a surgeon? So now what am I? Failure? My life over? Have I no value? You know, what do I do? A good example would be Kris Kristofferson, who was a major in the Army, who was a ranger helicopter pilot, who went to West Point, who taught English literature at West Point, and his father was a general. And he was moving along the progression in his family supported that goal in his life. And that's how they worked on the measure of success. When he generally was successful, he quit it all and went to Nashville to write and sing and perform music. And his mother wrote him off. She said, "You don't bother coming for Christmas. Right. You're not part of the family." Right. So this is completely. This is tangential. But he's still alive. He's still alive. Yeah. And I didn't know that. I mean, yeah, it was a lot. Yeah. I mean, I know Kris Kristofferson, man. Come to St. Louis. I just recently. Everywhere. I think watched a movie. My wife loves Christmas movies. And watches them all year long. Yeah. And I know people like that. Yeah. And she loves them. And that's totally fine with me. But I'm not gonna watch him in July. But you know, when it gets to be the Christmas season, then. Seasonal affective disorder. Yes. Absolutely. That's the definition of it. But we just watched a movie that he made with Harry Connick Jr. and Willie Nelson, and there were all kinds of drop-in cameos for all kinds of country stars. And I'm blanking on the name of it. And I wish that is not helpful. But if you look up Kris Kristofferson and the Harry Connick Jr. holiday movie, Willie Nelson, you're gonna find it. And it had really, really bad reviews. But I just watched it because of the names that were in it. I really, really enjoyed it. But I was surprised that he was, he was still kicking. So were you procrastinating while you were watching that movie? Where you're supposed to be doing something else? No, actually. So for whatever reason, and for whatever reason, but I'm actually really good now today of meeting deadlines. Like I don't miss deadlines. I am spot-on. I may procrastinate up until 15 minutes before the deadline, but I never miss a deadline. And that's what I tell people is, you can't be a procrastinator if you hit your important deadlines. So when I used to study and teach sociology, there was something that we studied called the Peter Principle. Mm-hmm. And the Peter Principle was an argument that said, work will expand or contract to fit the amount of time in which you have to do it. I believe in it myself. I give you a term paper right at the beginning of a term and say, this is due at the end of the term. You'll put the same amount of time in it, the same amount of literally clock minutes, doing it, whether you start day one and get it done and do 10 minutes a day, or whether you start the night before it's due and do it for 12 straight hours. I've seen evidence of that throughout my teaching career. You know, if you structure an assignment for four people, they will use the amount of time you give them. They haven't done. And some of them will try to push that envelope and use more time than they were given. But very few and will come in the next week and hand it in. Right. Yeah. I mean, they don't even realize it's an option. Mm-hmm. And some would ask me, like, "What if I get it done this week?" My son turned in. Turn in. But they would not systemically. They wouldn't get it finished until. But would you agree with that statement? That if you hit your major deadlines, that you can't be a procrastinator? Well, if you hit your major deadlines, you're not procrastinating around those deadlines, but you may be procrastinating somewhere else. Because I think your original premise, are we doing it to avoid things or to approach failing at things? Like what channel are you on? What are you talking about? Right. You know, my deadline or goal is to lose weight for my daughter's wedding so I fit in the dress, or to get slim enough so I can go on the beach and not embarrass myself. Mm-hmm. But I'm, you know, I'm three months out. So I say, well, my goal is to lose a pound a week. I probably won't really start trying to do that until I'm about two weeks out, and then I just won't eat for two weeks. Dropping. Mm. There's a way people do that all the time. Right. For those kind of things. All right. Or pay off my student loan. You know, I'm gonna send five dollars a week to my student loan. But then I find another use for that five dollars. Hmm. And I procrastinate paying the student loan. But as long as. So, and one of the things that I am very aware of as I get older, I would like to believe more mature and wise, is the wooden wheel extent of my own countertransference in in what I do. And so I'm very aware that a lot of my own life experiences informs the way in which I do therapy, in which I perceive it. And so for this particular issue of procrastination, because I do have some history with that, you know, I want to make sure that my countertransference doesn't. That may have been true for my experience, but may not be true universally or even majority. So what I tell my clients is, if you actually hit your deadlines, if you do it the night before, that's perfectly fine. That can't be procrastination. And don't buy into anybody who tells you that it is. Because I still hear people who say, "Well, my parents tell me that if I'm up all night the night before, you know, something's due that I'm procrastinating." And that upsets them. And I say, "You, you do you. Don't worry about what you pay." So one of the questions I always ask my clients, "How's that working for you?" Mm-hmm. "Does that work? Are you succeeding?" Exactly. I think that's it. Acceptable. And if it's not working for you, let's, let's look at it. Yeah. I think that's absolutely true. Right. So, but, but what shouldn't happen is that an external message, so the parents saying, "You're bad because you're doing this," should not inform their opinion of themselves. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. Yeah.
So, if you hit your major deadlines, and that works for you, I remember when I wrote my dissertation. So I was originally going to do my dissertation on addiction as an attachment disorder. So a lot of the research on that was, you know, from 20, 30 years ago, because it was very heavily psychodynamic. Right. And so my dissertation theory cycle done. Yeah. So it should be. Yeah. Well, then, so my dissertation committee loved the idea, and they were all over it. And so as I started working through, I got about a third of the way done, and they said, "Oh, no, this research is way too old. Start over." What? So I had to start from scratch. And I did the biological differences in similarities between depression and anxiety because I knew that I could get ancillary research. Yeah. I mean, this research was written tomorrow. Yeah. And I actually like that topic. So it wasn't, it wasn't horrible. But because now I was already, you know, I had already burned a third of my time, I ended up writing in it was like 120 pages long. I ended up writing that thing literally, I'm not even joking, the two or three weeks before the deadline. But I got it done. Yeah. And I graduated right on time. For the first time in my life. I have to say, I'm impressed. Yeah. So, you know, that's my experience that if you hit those deadlines, that you're not procrastinating. It doesn't matter how you do it. Now, I'll tell you, man, that was a lot of late nights. And there were times when I would get up and say, "Why am I doing this to myself?" But when I got it done, I felt so great. That was an epiphany moment for me. I was like, "You know what? If you hit your deadlines, that isn't procrastination." But am I just kidding myself? Would you agree with that? Or am I just kidding me? And that isn't a good message to give to the masses. That worked for me, but isn't a good thing to say to the general population. I think I agree with the concept. If you hit the deadlines, if you hit the mark that you set for yourself, then how have you got there? Right. The question becomes, are you satisfied with that? Exactly. Are you happy with that? And rather than giving yourself a pejorative label of some kind and saying, "Oh, I'm just not as good as I hoped." Under here, be honest with her son. Are you okay with that? Is it right here? I got it done. So I finished it, and I obtained the goal, which was the degree, or the financial pass, the licensure test. So then what? I mean, who gets to say otherwise? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I used to ask medical students who were clients. And so when you graduate, you know, they were upset about some got this class and I'm struggling in it. So when you graduate from medical school, what are gonna call you? Yeah. Yeah. Doctor. Yeah. And no matter where you end up in the class, your patients, and I against come in and say, "Can I, can I see your grade?" Right. Intestinal fortitude. Right now. So if you reach the goal and you pass the licensure, and you're a doctor, then the goal is to become a good doctor. Hmm. And, you know, help people. Mm-hmm. So don't waste time and energy on these sort of perjury of self-definitions that lead to failure activities. Right. One kind or the other. But I think that a societal message would be, "Hey, if you write your dissertation two weeks before the due date, then you didn't do good work." And I don't believe that. I think some people, that's how they operate, and they do their best work when they're under that deadline. Proof is in the pudding. That's right. And, and what I think what you said is the most important thing for me, which is, is it working for you? If it's working for you, it's not a problem. Don't allow other people to inform your opinion of yourself. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Hopefully, this was a conversation that people enjoyed. I know that for me, it was extremely therapeutic, and I enjoyed it a great deal. So hopefully, you guys liked it. If you have any questions or comments, again, always get us through the website, psych with Mike.com. The music that is inside with Mike is written and performed by Mr. Measurement Ooh Clue, and I thank him for that. And as always, if it's Friday, it's Psych with Mike.
[Music]
[Music]