Transcription
Cameron Bertuzzi, known best for his YouTube channel "Capturing Christianity," has recently converted to Roman Catholicism. When he said he was looking into the Church of Rome's claims, he mentioned to Braxton Hunter that one thing that would persuade him is to find a picture of apostolic succession in Isaiah 22. So today, we are going to be looking at the argument from this supposed typology and whether or not it holds any weight.
[Music]
With me to discuss this very important topic is none other than the president and founder of Good Fight Ministries and pastor of Blessed Hope Chapel in Simi Valley, California, Pastor Joe Schimmel.
Praise the Lord, Brother Chad. This is a sad day. When I heard what happened with him, man, it just broke my heart, you know, because, you know, you hoped he loved the Lord and everything else. And also, he goes from the true faith to a form of godliness, which is spiritually bankrupt, scripturally inept, you know, and very idolatrous. And it's just heartbreaking to see what's happened with some of these guys.
Yeah, and one of the things that we've talked about when it comes to covering other doctrines that is definitely going to be apparent here is the grasping after just about anything you can hold on to. And as a ministry, Good Fight Ministries, obviously being known for the "Solar Social Rock and Roll," "Hollywood's Word on God," this emerging church, and some of these, you know, documentaries of exposing. But another thing that not only Good Fight Ministries but Blessed Hope Chapel has been known for is typology and studying typology. We love typology, man. Preaching typology. It is one of the most beautiful things. In fact, I don't even remember how long it took us when we originally started the Good Fight radio show. How long it took us to just go through Genesis 1. We never even finished the full chapter. Yeah, we got five or six verses, we spent several weeks there, seeing Jesus. And one of the principles when it comes to setting typology is making sure that we actually see it in the New Testament, not making dogmatic statements unless we can see dogmatically that the statements arranged scripture. Jesus was very clear about there being a two-pastor typology, uh, not that he used that word, but in the sense of John chapter 3 with the bronze serpent and so forth. Sure. And so you see that light coming out from darkness in 2 Corinthians chapter 4. We see that. So the man coming from heaven is a picture of him giving his life, John chapter 6. Yeah. Over and over again, you see these. And you go, "Oh, well, this is exactly what God is using over and over again." You see even typology of judgment when it comes to the book of Jude and also first, second Peter as well. But you see that talking about Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, or they indulge in through some moralities and they're a picture of what the eternal flames, the eternal fire, and so forth. But so I say that just to say that when it comes to typology, and I really believe this is part of when we talk about the beauty and and the goodness and the truth, one of the beautiful things in scripture is finding typology. I believe it is one of those things that is objectively beautiful about the word of God, not when you are trying to find a pet doctrine that's found nowhere in scripture, though. Yeah.
And it's interesting you say that because the early church fathers talked about how typology is useful, uh, for a spiritual understanding of scripture, but they also made it clear that we don't base doctrine on typology. Typology can wonderfully illustrate doctrine, but if you can't find a doctrine in scripture and you make one up based on some typology, that can become like, you know, like a piece of Plato, you can make it anything you want. Uh, then you're really wanting. And then you're actually going beyond what is written. So you have to always make sure that our typology and our standard typology isn't harmed in the scripture and illustrates what is already taught in scripture. Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church, and by the way, it's not even official like Roman doctrine. We'll get into that a little bit. If some of the apologists, these overzealous apologists that, uh, would probably be chasing in another era by their leaders that are running amok with, uh, saying the Eliakim, that's a prophecy of Peter. And we should probably subscribe to our audience what exactly they're doing with that prophecy. Yeah.
No, that is, we do. I believe it's a typology, but it's not pointing to Peter. That is really important. We are going to do that. We're going to let them out of their own words do it. So it's not just our opinion. And as Joe mentioned, this is more of a modern kind of apologist, uh, argumentation for this. And like you said, it's one of those things that when it comes to these things, they gotta grasp at something. And they're dealing with these questions, "Hey, we're not seeing this in the scripture. We're not seeing it." So like, "Well, let's see how we can kind of like you said, with Plato, mix around and and and find it here." And I've found it interesting, Joe, because you mentioned even the early church fathers, but even from, I would say that's probably the most important, at least in the Western, uh, version of the Roman Catholic Church, Thomas Aquinas. Even talked about this, that you are not supposed to make a doctrine out of something like typology without it being literal. So even from those who were, they would get a lot of their doctrines. If you talk to apologists, most of them are Thomas. I mean, this is a lot of those apologists that we're finding, uh, online and so forth. But Roman Catholics, Chad, do not have scripture to refute biblical doctrine on so many levels. And they're trying to prove the papacy and try to establish Roman Catholic authority over the world, ultimately from Rome, you know, as though he's some kind of prime minister. Peter was, which wasn't the case. And they can't find that in scripture that he was some kind of prime minister and was supposed to have a physical kingdom before Christ came rolling from Rome. So they have to find something to establish that authority. That's what cults do, by the way. In fact, Joseph Smith, they can't find any scriptures that talk about Joseph Smith, you know, and then they can't, don't know scriptures about the, the Book of Mormons. They say, "Oh, these two sticks." You know, that we read about in the Old Testament prophet, uh, the two sticks come together in Ezekiel and they're brought together as one. One once the Bible and one's the Book of Mormon. It's like, "No, the two sticks are are Judah." Look at the context, read before and after. It's, it's Judah and it's the northern kingdom being brought together. Or Joseph Smith, his new translation of the Bible, chapter 50 of the Book of Genesis, he puts a new translation. Joseph Smith new translates the Bible. He says, "Oh, by the way, there was a prophecy about me and his father's name, we call Joseph, and his name will be Joseph." Which was true in his life, but he puts it and says, "This is a missing prophecy that was in the original manuscripts, but it's gone now, and I'm going to put that there to establish his cultic authority." Well, the Roman Catholic Church wants authority over people, and they, they don't have it biblically. So it's like, "What scripture can we use to twist to make it look like?" And they just twist it all out of shape. We're going to prove that exactly.
And what we're talking about here, and we've discussed this, and we encourage you to check out our series, "Catholicism Examined," and specifically part two of that, where we examine just papal authority as a whole, where it came from, if it's scriptural, and so forth. And obviously, we believe a thorough disproving took place on that series. But, but what this one is talking about is specifically the succession that supposedly took place. And they're using a text in Isaiah 22. And I want you to hear this. This is Trent Horn, he's one of the most popular online apologists for Catholics today. And I want you to hear him illustrate this, and he's doing this on Ruslan's channel, trying to express to him how the papacy, how we can find the apostolic succession through this picture that we find or he found there in Isaiah 22.
My point is that if we look at Peter's role in the early church, that if he has this authority, he's not, he's not a tyrant, of course, but he has that authority so that you can provide unity. And for me, one of the most powerful evidences for this is that when Jesus says to Peter, "I give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven," "What you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven." He gives him the keys in particular. And the binding that goes back to Isaiah 22:22. Okay? So he's echoing some more. If you look up in Isaiah 22:22, we see that you have the king of Israel, but the kingdom of Israel also has a prime minister, a vizier. And that would have been the wicked Shebna, who was later replaced by the righteous man Eliakim. And it says, and it says there in Isaiah 22:22, "Eliakim, you will replace his office. What you what you open, you will get the keys to the kingdom. What you open, none will shut. What you shut, none will open." So what I see in that Matthew 16 is that Peter is essentially the prime minister. Jesus is the king of the kingdom of God. Peter is the prime minister. So that we have as Christians, we can look to to those who continue that apostolic authority to teach. And I think it's Hebrews 13. It says, "Submit to your elders." Who should I mean, I look out, there's a million churches out there. Which one am I supposed to submit to? But the Bible says, "Submit to them."
So, Joe, basically, what he's saying is you can find this succession. And actually, before we even get to that, I, I just want to, that last comment at the end about, "Well, what elders are you supposed to follow, Joe?" I mean, when you're reading Hebrews 13, what what elders is he talking about there that you're supposed to follow? Because obviously, you need somebody in Rome, you need a bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ in Rome, so that you can actually follow your elders. Uh, how does that work?
Yeah, notice he didn't say, "You know, uh, says in Hebrews 13, follow the popes." You know, there's no Pope's message, there's no Cardinals mentioned, there's no, no this magisterium of Roman Catholics. As I mentioned, and it's talking about obeying or submitting the elders of the local church that we should all be involved in Christian fellowship and submitted to the elders, the leaders of the church. And it says that that lead you. There's two different verses actually in Hebrews 13 that mention the leadership to follow their example and so forth. Obviously, they're around you. Uh, we don't, does, and a pope is from, you know, the papius, the, uh, the father, Holy Father, he's called. And Jesus said, "I'm calling you man father." I mean, it's time on a spiritual level where you're submitting to someone as your Holy Father. That's even worse than calling them, going around calling me Father. No, don't do that. I'd say, "Wait a minute, man." And it's just so unscriptural.
I want to read from Hebrews 13. I'm gonna start at verse 7, because I found it very interesting when I'm thinking about that. That's a verse that Joe, as, as fellow elders, which, by the way, that's what Peter actually mentioned when he writes letters, you know, to his fellow elders, not make sure you're listening to me, I'm the core bishop of Rome, the Vicar of Christ. But nonetheless, uh, starting at verse 7 in chapter 13, that Chen Horn mentions there, he says, "Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you, and considering the result of their way of life, imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be misled by varied and strange teachings." Varied teachings? You mean like all the different councils? Vatican I, on that, Han is putting on right now. Yeah, that's exactly right. "Do not be misled by varied and strange teachings, like taking typology out of context and so forth. For it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited. We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin are burned outside the camp. Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the gate that he might sanctify the people through his blood. So then, let us go out to him outside the camp bearing his reproach. For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. Through him, then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is the fruit of lips praising his name. And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for which such sacrifices God is pleased. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account, so that they may do this with joy, not groaning, for this would be unhelpful for you."
Now, Joe, I wanted to read all that context because, at first, it is, imitate those who taught you the word, then he talks about obeying your leaders, submitting to your leaders. When we read Ignatius, actually, one of the early church fathers, we see he probably has maybe even too high, I would say, of an obedience to the bishop as if it is Jesus Christ himself and so forth. But what we see over and over again is the fact that we do submit in the scriptures to our leaders, the leaders of our church who watch over our souls. We're told that many people should not be teachers because they are judged harsher. That's what James said. The one who led the Jerusalem Council in Acts chapter 15. But we see all this, Joe. We just see, once again, that just a misunderstanding of scripture being applied by an apologist, let alone when they're misapplying a text from Isaiah 22:22. And let me read from that, Joe, before we get into the points in Isaiah 22:22, which is what he specifically quoted. And I'll give you guys 20 through 25 so you see the whole context.
"Then it will come about in that day that I will summon my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah. And I will clothe him with your tunic, and gird him securely with your sash. I will entrust him with your authority, and he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. Then I will set the key of the House of David on his shoulder. When he opens, no one will shut. When he shuts, no one will open. I will drive him like a peg in a firm place, and he will become a throne of glory to his father's house. So they will hang on him all the glory of his father's house, offspring and issue, all the least of vessels from bulls to all the jars. In that day," declares the Lord of hosts, "the peg driven in a firm place will give way, it will even break off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off, for the Lord has spoken."
So, Joe, they are applying Isaiah 22. And this is Trent Horn, this is Scott Hahn. This is the key argument, uh, in his analysis, the Bayesian analysis that Cameron Bertuzzi said he used that basically confirmed that he needs to convert to Catholicism. And they would say this text in Isaiah 22, this linchpin argument, seems like this is the thing that points so clearly in Matthew chapter 16 when the proclamation is given by Peter that "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God," to Jesus. And Jesus said that he will build his church upon the rock, and the and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And then in verse 19 of chapter 16, he says that he will give the keys of the kingdom, and what you bind on Earth will be bound, and what you loose on Earth will be loosed, and so forth. And they would say that that proclamation in in Matthew chapter 16 was referred to in Isaiah 22 because people would say, "Hey, we don't see succession here. Why is Peter just getting the keys? And why is no one else getting these keys? There's no succession." They would say, "Well, this prophecy here in Isaiah 22 gives us the succession."
Yeah, they're saying because the king gave the key to the key to Eliakim, and he represented the king then and had the authority of the king. Jesus is giving the key to Peter. And Eliakim is really a prophecy or prophetic picture of Peter. And therefore, we have scriptural authority based on this typology to say, "Ah, look here's the authority we've been looking for for Peter to have." And that definitely speaks of Peter alone because like him is one person, therefore he represents Peter. The problem with that is tragically, you know, these guys obviously don't study typology often and recognize its referent to the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage in in Isaiah chapter 22 is Messianic. Okay? It has Messianic all over it. We'll develop that as we make, we're going to make 10 points that refute their belief system here and their interpretation. Uh, by the way, I think it's quite interesting, uh, when you look at this prophecy, and it is a prophetic picture. We know it's a typology. We would just say, "Oh, we know it's a typology unless we had New Testament scriptural, uh, uh, parallel to it that's quite exacting." We're not talking about something like you're trying to squeeze Matthew 16 into this, "Hey, there's keys." Yeah, well, that's one of the things we'll mention a little bit. One of the points is he's given a key. Peter's given keys. Okay? And it's not just Peter that's given the keys. You'll see too, it's all the disciples. Okay? So it's so easy to refute this. But first of all, so since you mentioned that, he's given a key, right? And it's interesting, the scripture itself shows who this, who Eliakim is a picture of, because you have Judah, who's going to reign in Jude in the future, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to represent the Father, and all power and authority is given to Him. Jesus, all power in heaven and earth is given unto me. It's been given into His hands to judge. Jesus fulfills that role. And we know that we don't have to guess about it because when Jesus was addressed in the Church of Philadelphia, as you know, Chad, we both know this, it's a beautiful typology. It refers very clearly to the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, I'll read the text, Revelation chapter 3, verse 7.
"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of him who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David—by the way, singular—who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens.'"
Says this. In other words, Jesus says this. Who has the key of David? He's the one that has the key of David. He's the one that is given by the king. Eliakim was a picture of him. Like he was never the Messiah. He was a picture of Jesus as Messiah. There's all these Messianic pictures of Jesus throughout the Old Testament. And He is the one who has the Key of David. And by the way, the association with David is important. I mean, it's Christmas time. Most, many of us Christians celebrate Christ's birth. And we associate his birth, he descended from King David. And he has the Key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens. Says this. I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door, because he opened it, which no one can shut. Because you have a little strength, and I have kept my word and have not denied my name."
So, Chad, the first point we'll have to make is that the scriptures are really, really clear that Eliakim is a picture in Revelation 3:7 is a clear reference to Eliakim, and Eliakim as a prophetic type, a prophetic picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah.
And just to point out something, Joe, because some people, you know, "Hey, of course Jesus has the keys and so forth." Guys, this was written after Peter's death. Peter was dead. And guess what? Jesus was holding that key. Absolutely. And Peter wasn't given to another pope, and there was no pope in the first place. But, amen, when this was written, Revelation chapter 3, and we know the, we know that things were written specifically to the churches. And the encouragement that He's given to Philadelphia, who is being persecuted by the local Jews there, who are not really Jews, right, as He calls them. Amen. And He says, "What? That He's ultimately the one that can shut doors that no one could open. He's the one who can open that no one can shut." And these people might be shutting it out to their own family members, and that was basically a death sentence to them. And Jesus is saying, "No, no, I'm ultimately the one."
And the second point we'll make is this is, man, Chad, I love this. Isaiah 22, Eliakim being given the key, uh, and so forth, as a picture of Jesus. It's so much a picture of Jesus, not Peter. It's, it's a Messianic prophecy. It has, uh, Messianic flavor all throughout. And I'll just mention a couple of points because we have to hit each of these points quick. This is our second point. First of all, we read that "I will summon my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah," and "I will clothe him and so forth, and he says, 'I will entrust him your authority.'" A little bit later, in verse 23, he says, "And he will become a throne of glory to his father's house." So Jesus is going to sit on the throne of David because we're talking about Judah. He says, "I'll entrust him with your authority." We read in verse 22, "Then I will set the key of the House of David on his shoulder." Does that not sound just like the Throne of David in Isaiah 9? Year nine, "the government sits on his shoulders." It's amazing. And it's interesting, "I will drive him like a peg," as Chad read, "in a firm place, and he will become a throne of glory to his father's house." So they will hang on him all the glory of his father's house. But just before that, I think it's quite interesting that we read this, and "he will become a father." Whose inhabitants of Jerusalem? In Isaiah 9, he's called Everlasting Father. Father. So we have the power, authority put on his shoulders. He's called Father. He's got the Throne of Israel. He opens, no one shuts. All this is Isaiah 9. It's the same Messiah being prophesied in Isaiah 22 through typology, through Eliakim. And then we see a very, very clear reference that you don't have to stretch that specifically references Jesus. And that's number two.
Number three, we'll have to go through these quick. Catholic apologists, they love to use these anachronistic texts. I mean, they like to read "prime minister." Ah, so Peter was a prime minister in the first century. And they're applying something to Jesus and the first century to Peter that then applied to him. We know that Peter was not a leader at Rome. There's no text. Paul wrote to the Romans, he's not greeting Peter as the leader of Rome and so forth. And he wasn't leading this, this, you know, he wasn't leading this civil situation because they want to say, "Hey, this was, you know, Peter being given authority to the physical government to the world through Rome." And this is just a bold-faced lie. Typology, and Catholics love to twist typology. Chad, you had mentioned earlier, Revelation chapter 12, when it's speaking of Israel, the woman with the 12 stars, the son of the moon. You go back to Genesis, the last few chapters, you see that clearly Israel. And we see it's Israel in Revelation chapter 12. Or they say Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, a type of Mary because she brought Jesus. Scott Hahn stuff right here. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, on and on and on, you have all these kinds of fake types. Or Moses sitting down when he thought he said that's a picture of *ex cathedra*. They just try to pull these things out of a hat, and it's absolutely unscriptural. So point three, Chad, is that Roman Catholicism is a is a world religion in search of a scripture. You know, and they're misusing, obviously, uh, scripture and misusing typology.
At point number four is that I said, "Johnny-come-lately" interpretation. Even the counter, the counter-reformers in the, you know, back in the 16th and 17th century, they were all over on this issue, you know. They were not saying, "Hey, this is Peter, and he's prime minister," and so forth. They don't go back. You notice they don't quote Jerome and Eusebius on this subject matter because they can't.
Number four is that, you know, basically, it's a "Johnny-come-lately" interpretation. Number five, we're having to hit this quick, is that it's riddled with inconsistencies. And we already alluded to one. And since we're going to hurry, I'll just mention obviously we're talking Jesus, not Peter. Uh, that'd be a radical inconsistency. Would they love to give glory to man, whether it's Mary or Peter or someone else, into the church, rather than their Jesus? That's one of the problems with Catholicism. But it's quite sad because here's one consistency where he brought up, which I'll just label under number five, is we're talking about a key. And Jesus has the key. And when Peter talks about, when Jesus talks about to Peter about the keys of the kingdom, he's talking about keys. And it's under his authority. And all the apostles have keys to the kingdom, not just Peter, under the authority of Jesus.
Number six, okay. And this is where we have this anachronistic tendency in Roman Catholicism where they take him as the Vicar of Christ and and the prime minister of Rome, and they read in two different eras these different titles, and they have to search for scriptures to back them up. And it's absolutely unbiblical.
Number seven, uh, there's no supporting scripture. We have supported scripture. Hmm. Let's see. If we had a debate with, uh, Hahn, you know, or one of these Roman Catholic apologists, and the debate was whether Matthew chapter 16 or Revelation 3 best shows who fulfills the Eliakim prophecy. There's no contest. Jesus quotes it directly and refers to himself. Amen.
So number eight, really quickly here. Eliakim is called in verse 20, "Then it will come about in that day that I will summon my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah." By the way, Chad, I was pointed out on these other Messianic illusions, "my servant." Does that ring a bell to you? I know. Are you going to say we haven't talked about this? It refers to Jesus. It's Jesus. Amen. He's a picture of Jesus.
Nine. Whenever we see David referenced throughout the New Testament, and he's almost always, there's this, uh, connotation of a Messianic flavor, prophetic flavor of the Messiah coming from him and so forth. And just as some of those, some of those would be Matthew 1:1, 22:20, 42-45, Mark 11:10. We can go on and on and on. Romans 1:1-4, uh, Second Timothy 2:8. So, oh, on and on. But it's important. I want to reference just a few of the Book of Revelation. Chad, we've already read Revelation 3:7. Is that Jesus says this is me. I'm the one that opens and no one shuts. But in Revelation 5:5, we read this of Jesus.
"Then one of the elders said to me, 'Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed, he is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.'"
Then Revelation 22:16, one more. "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."
And there we see He's the Alpha, the Omega, and all these other things. In Revelation 22, the point is that Jesus is coming back. "I come quickly. My reward is with me," He says in 22:12. So what's heavy about this is as He's coming as the coming conquering King, as the rightful heir of the kingdom of David, as the one who opens and no one shuts. So it's fitting that this, this is throughout the Book of Revelation, and that this is used in Revelation 3:7 and 8, because it refers to Jesus.
And the tenth and last one, and this just destroys Catholicism's understanding of Revelation, not just Isaiah 22:22, but also it destroys the Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew chapter 16 being the pope, because it mentions Peter having the keys of the kingdom and be able to bind and loose and and to loosen, bind and so forth. But it's interesting because when you go to Matthew chapter 18, Chad, and I'm sure our brothers will bring that up when these brothers see the video and our sisters see the video, is notice that Jesus addresses His disciples, all of them, not just Peter, in verse one. And then He speaks to them in verses 15 through 18. And then what follows, and He says, "He gives to them," plural, "He says, 'I give you,'" right, "the power to bind and loosen, the power of the keys of the kingdom." The keys are divine. Loose and the loose and binding is using the keys. The Apostle Paul used them when he exercised church discipline in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, because they weren't, they weren't binding this, this brother who was in wicked fornication with his father's wife. So He makes it really clear. And by the way, I just was looking at the text in the Greek, and He says, "I give you," it's always, it's in the second person plural, three times. But He's giving them the keys. It's not speaking of just Peter. So it's not just Peter that was giving the keys to the kingdom. It's all the apostles. So all the apostles have the keys to the kingdom. All the apostles, uh, can, can bind and loose. And by the way, they're given, they've given the church. They've passed on. But now church leaders are able to bring church discipline and admit people into fellowship when they're walking with Jesus and to excommunicate them if they're rebellion to Jesus and have the keys to the kingdom. That's really, really clear, brothers and sisters. So Jesus is the Eliakim to come, not Peter. Amen.
If you want true apostolic succession, make sure to read the writings of the Apostles and dig into God's Word. Amen. Disprove nonsense, nonsensical, and varied strange teachings. God bless you guys.
Hey, Joe Schimmel here. We want to thank you for watching. We also want to encourage you not to forget to sign up or subscribe to Good Fight Ministries YouTube channel. We have the most amazing content. We also have the very popular Good Fight radio show where we examine all kinds of things in light of scripture, as well as 511 News, which is also very eye-opening. And we also have mind-blowing video exposés that you won't see anywhere else at our 24/7 online radio station, the Good Fight Radio Network, as well as my sermons from Blessed Hope Chapel over on the Blessed Hope Chapel YouTube channel. And this week's featured product is "A Shack of Lies," which you can get at goodfight.org.