Transcription
Assalamu Alaikum, friends. Nowadays, you must be seeing a lot on social media and also quite a lot of news coming on national media about how, in the name of the IMF and in the name of inflation, due to the increase in oil prices at the international level, the lives of electricity and gas consumers have become miserable. An extraordinary increase in electricity prices. Similarly, a levy of around 117 rupees was imposed on petrol. It is called the Petroleum Development Levy. Its basic purpose was to explore oil and gas reserves within the country. But the government has made it a source of income. Now, to discuss these matters with great scrutiny, we have troubled Engineer Arshad Abbasi sahib once again. So, Arshad sahib, Assalamu Alaikum. Yes, Wa Alaikum Assalam. So, tell us, you have done a lot of research in Pakistan's energy sector, whether it is electricity or power plants running on gas, so what is the problem here? What is Pakistan's public being punished for, and why are those who should be punished not punished? First, let me give a disclaimer that I am a professional engineer. For 38 years, the biggest problem in Pakistan is that the sanctity of our engine has ended. No one is telling the nation correctly what is left. Why is this levy imposed? How is it imposed? And if you talk about the public, let me tell you, I am very ill these days. I want to say one thing. People are coming from villages these days, and believe me, it is with great sadness that I have to say this. People are saying that we bought a measure of lentils, and it has become dry in a week. This is the situation. Now, if we read the IMF documents carefully, even the Prime Minister of Pakistan's speech at the World Economic Forum, they are saying the same thing: that this is circular debt, which is causing a crisis. So, the entire nation should know that this is basically its cause. This levy has increased so much, and if you see today's news, they say, increase its prices by 18%, increase electricity prices. The reason for this is circular debt, meaning the circulation of money, which has descended upon us like a torment. Now, I will tell you one more thing. I am the same person who did work in NAB for one and a half to two and a half years, and I went there because in 2013, our support debt was 480 billion, and Mr. Dar had paid a lot of foreign debt. Later, it was found out whether it was right or not, that's a separate matter. In those two years, neither NAB nor anyone else cooperated on how we paid the money. Now, let's come to another point. In 2013, the gas supply debt was zero. No one had ever heard of domestic gas. What was the rate of domestic gas? You will see, at $5 per MMBTU. Then a gentleman came here and said, no, I will bring LNG. He brought LNG. After LNG, let me talk about 2022. How much is the supply debt? 3400 billion. And according to their calculations yesterday, it is 3600 billion. All these benefits, all these blessings we have received are because of that LNG we brought from Qatar at expensive prices, then FSRU, that floating unit which liquefies gas, it comes in liquid form. See, its capacity is one thing, compulsion is another. Now let's come to the power sector. How much money have we paid for the power sector? How much have we paid? No one knows the correct answer. I want to say this with great sadness. Obviously, I am a bit of a debater. I watch TV. Believe me, as much as women are doing these days, so much work is being done, so much research is happening. Imtiaz, I want to tell 260 million people, we have not done this much work on circular debt. We have not done this much research. How is it possible that there is so much circular debt? Pakistan has become a beggar bowl in the whole world, and look at the impact on people's lives. It's a long story, but we have not yet done what is called unlocking the IPPs. Let me tell you, we haven't done that. Believe me, if there is an open audit today, it's a good opportunity to talk on your program. Believe me, this can end. This can be managed. But I will say one thing here. I will continue to say this. When we have two very good communicators here. They are present on every television channel. Obviously, our face is like this, we can't speak that well, nor do we have anything to offer, any catchy phrases. Who is sitting there? S.P. Ghaffar, Shahid Khan Abbasi, and S. Iqbal. When 2013 came, I myself told S. Iqbal, "Sir, please guide me." I booked and gave him a room at the Marriott Hotel. I said, if you want to install coal plants, then look, look, this is the option: ultra-supercritical. Then I said, one thing, because it is unsaid, which no one tells. In 2000, a Chinese company, Shua, came. They were initially installing 300 megawatts, then they said they would do 3000 megawatts. Its tariff was 5.4, meaning 5.4 cents. Nepra and BAP said, "No, no, no, sir, you give us five cents, five cents." We lost that opportunity at 0.1 and did not do that work. This same S. Iqbal was found. I said, look, pressure the same company. Look on their website. Sir, everything was mobilized, all the work was done. They had to dismantle the camp office. Okay, tell me, this is what happened. You also mentioned in your article that the Chinese also advised that you should take advantage of solar energy, hydropower here. And this is when we are talking about 2013-14. Why were power plants running on coal, diesel, and gas prioritized in this country? What was the fundamental reason? Imtiaz, since this is your program, I want to make some corrections, some disclaimers. When the first meeting of 2000 was held, they also invited me and later said, "Sir, please wait. You work in energy. We will give you all the visits to the core power plants." All those rents came back, and there is a 40-page detail on your website about which core power plants you should install. But let me tell you one thing, the best visit was when they took me to the Three Gorges Dam. They said, "Sir, stay for five days. Write a review on this. Look, 22,000 megawatts from this dam." It is better that you advise Pakistan that Pakistan, as they say, is a basket of hydropower. Look at KP, Gilgit, some of your dams. Then how can I say that they said, "Look, Basha Dam, which has been under construction since 2006, tell them to do these three: Basha, Dasu, and Bunji. You will not need any energy in Pakistan. You will not have to do any energy work. Neither island nor coal. You go and advise them." There was a mistake by the Chinese here. They don't know, brother, which government of Pakistan is mine. But they tried their level best. They also convinced the government of Pakistan that look, you get this work done by us. Who is a bigger master than China in hydropower in the world? Meaning, in that, you, whose dams you have named, Diamer Basha and Bunji, those were three dams. If about 15,000 to 16,000 megawatts of electricity could have been generated there, and on that, you have written in your article that if attention had been given, prioritized, and financial resources had been allocated for it, then today we would have been close to preparing the cheapest electricity with a capacity of about 15,000 to 16,000 megawatts. But they did not do this work. Tell us the fundamental reason for this. Why did they prioritize coal, oil, and then solar panels? Many solar panels came into it. Who knows whose business it was. Look, one, one, one, and the most striking thing that struck me was that the Chinese said, "Look, when we build the Basha Dam for you, and you know their speed, that's Chinese speed, not local speed. They said, you will get 8.2 million cubic meters of water, and you will have at least two to two and a half million jobs from Punjab to Balochistan, even in KP and Sindh. Tell me, this will be an agricultural revolution. You import wheat from abroad. You import lentils from abroad. You keep these, and we will build this for you." But there was an advertisement that said, "I, like S. Iqbal and some others, said, 'No, sir, we have to take these core plants.'" And let me tell you a very simple thing. It's like sending an incompetent person to a big shopping mall. He will select things. They said, "It's open, you select." They bought old coal power plants. This is their mistake. These big people are writing here that they were trapped by the Chinese. No, this is completely false. This is completely wrong. You know Dr. Li. You know Dr. Tang, who has received the Nishan-e-Pakistan. I know they came and told them, and then they told me, "Brother, explain to them, brother, that they should do this work. Our funding should be used correctly so that we also get money. Their debt has created this situation, making them capable of paying them. Just yesterday or the day before, they are after them again, "Revise, brother, you took the technology." The sorrow is that these same big faces sit on television. These same people invite them to your TV channels. Smile, who made the agreement as Chairman Board SSGC with Engro, in which the force majeure clause was not included. Now, what else can be said about what mistakes were made? What does a force majeure clause mean? Ordinary people don't know. See, the purpose of a force majeure clause is that if an act of God occurs, a war, an earthquake, something happens, a storm, then that penalty or continuity, suppose the gas that is coming from that shock or that impact is protected. Like what happened now, the plants in Qatar, South Pars, were destroyed, they could not supply, so force majeure was applied. See, sir, we cannot give it to you. We will not charge you either. But before this, in Algeria and America, in 1942, 1982, very big incidents had happened. In fact, I think I told Khansy that in Algeria, 36 people died when it happened. Is there a force majeure clause or not? They did not include the force majeure clause. They say, what else can you remember? Who would do that? You have shown great courage by telling the nation, "Look, these ministers who come on television say, 'What can we do about the IMF?'" It's not the IMF, it's their fault. It's their problem. We chose this path with our own hands. Why did we choose it? Who can say that in 2012, a PC-1 was made, and it was mine too, that all existing plants running on fossil fuel, oil, gas, should be retrofitted. How to retrofit? Just like when a person in Pakistan goes to a mechanic and says, "Brother, put a new engine in my car." In India, 1800 megawatts, 18,000 megawatts have been done. If those same power plants, instead of LNG, the four power plants that were installed, on which four billion dollars were spent, if those same power plants were retrofitted, meaning their turbines were changed, I even have the original PC-1 of K-Electric. They said, "We will take it from 26% to 54%." This is the estimate of GE. But they said, "No, we have to take a new site." So, fundamentally, you are saying that in 2015-16, four new projects running on LNG were brought, four to five billion dollars were spent on them. In return, to manage, store, and re-gasify that LNG, we pay about $500,000 daily. And your proposal was not accepted. The proposal was that you should convert all diesel-powered engines and turbines to gas, but you have written in your article that at that time, the total cost would have been $500-600 million, and new turbines would have been installed, and all our work would have been done through gas, instead of coal and oil, which is dirty diesel. Is that correct, Imtiaz? That is absolutely correct. Near Sharaqpur, Lahore, in Muzaffargarh, they have now built this power plant for 25-30 billion. Sell it as scrap. Brother, imagine and tell me, which plants are these? Here, sir, near Sharaqpur, Lahore, in Muzaffargarh and Faisalabad. And one more thing, look, it's a simple matter. We tell you, it took one and a half years to bring electricity from many LNG plants and to build them. Believe me, if electricity were generated from water, would we have to bring fuel, that is, water, from anywhere? Then Pakistan has made a lot of noise in the whole world about climate change, climate change. That's a long discussion. Shame on you, you are talking about climate change in the world. You have done this to yourself with your own hands. You have done this to your energy with your own hands. When this fuel burns, what happens? Imtiaz, what mistakes have we not made? But the sorrow is, believe me, if you talk about mistakes today, is this a mistake, or did these people have their own personal interests in it? That they bought and installed old coal-fired plants, some information we have received. In this, you cannot say that a mistake was made by someone. This is an act, an act that everyone knows about. Coal is being decommissioned worldwide. That is, plants running on coal and diesel are being phased out. And at a time when very advanced technology has also come for running coal and diesel, instead of buying that technology, we bought 8-10-15-year-old technology and installed those plants. On one hand, there is imported coal. Our foreign exchange is being destroyed. Second, there is its inland transportation. And third, how much the environment is spoiled by it. And continuously, the losses that Pakistan suffers, the common people have to bear the brunt of it in the form of expensive electricity. It's not just expensive electricity. Expensive electricity, expensive gas, levy, this is their gift. The people of Pakistan don't know that they have given this gift. They have signed it with their own hands. If these coal power plants had not been installed, or the LNG ones, would Pakistan have had to go to the IMF? Absolutely not. They would not have gone, nor would they have taken it. But there is one more thing. That is another long discussion. This was our own choice. Should they not charge you money? Should they not return the money? It is very sad. If only the ministers sitting here would say, "What can we do?" It's the IMF. They did this. But no, listen to the last thing. You said, "Sir, who will ask how much?" Listen, this was the job of the National Accountability Bureau, but the law there has been changed. Who will ask? The people whose names might have come up, whose investigations you also conducted, they themselves changed the laws for themselves so that they would be out of NAB's reach. Now, we are talking about the PLD levy. This levy had a different purpose. That was to collect money for exploring oil and gas reserves. And this is the only country where a Petroleum Development Levy is imposed. And per liter, about 114, 15, 16 rupees per liter. No, no, what was the development in 2013? It was very normal. It was hardly four or five percent. But another answer to your point is that the paths of justice are not closed. They are still not closed, okay? The biggest thing is that look at the Power Purchase Agreements they made. The arbitrator they have kept is the London Court of Arbitration. Go there. But one path is not closed. What is that path? International Criminal Court. Class four. Among the 260 million people, the suffering they have created, believe me, people are crying tears of blood. A person like me, like you, will go and say, "Wage war on them. They have committed great injustice." Believe me, great injustice. And what is more regrettable is the perception among our people, or what is being created in the media, that look, it's the IMF, what can we do? We have defaulted. Why did they not default? Because you didn't have the money to pay the IPPs. That's why you went to the IMF. Because you didn't have the money to pay Engro's FSRU. You didn't have the money to pay the power plant IPPs. You brought money from there and put it in their pockets. But my, I don't know if you will cut it, my appeal is to whom? Perhaps people will ignore this. I think I should see a marshal. Brother, the thing is, people don't know them. When they go public, they say, "What are they doing? All this is done by the army." I am saying this in brackets, and it is a bow. They should consider that with their support, what game is being played with the public. And one more thing, how regrettable it is. Seven Bangladesh, India, what is the price of petrol there? What is the price of diesel? People also say one more thing. This project started in 2006. How much biodiesel have we produced? This was not an easy path. It has not been started yet. No answer was received. How much ethanol, which comes from sugar mills, 600 million liters. Send it abroad at 100 rupees per liter. Mix it with petrol. See where the price of petrol goes down. Alright, sir. They didn't do the work either. Okay, sir. Thank you very much. We will arrange another session on this matter so that we can benefit more from your experiences, and it is certainly a matter for others to think about that the government has imposed a levy of Rs 17 per liter on prices so far, and the IMF is again demanding to increase its revenue further. Meaning, the funds that were to be used for the exploration of oil and gas have been used to increase the government's income, and the emphasis has been on the people of Pakistan who, despite their extremely limited majority, are forced to pay heavy electricity and gas bills. I don't know when these people will develop the fear of God, and I don't know how long the IMF will continue to sponsor the luxuries of Pakistan's ruling elite like this. Thank you very much.