Transcription
Dr. Wang, I want to thank you so much for joining us on Bloomberg. What is capturing your attention the most today in artificial intelligence technology?
It is the change in the way, actually, how we're doing things and actually how we think about things. Okay. So, you know, and I have a psychology background. So artificial intelligence, as a word, as an area, is not new for me. And as when I was in college, students and we, we already started to do that. Okay. That was in the early eighties. Okay. But if you look at the technology at that time, actually, technology is in a very shaky stage. Okay. So whenever we're talking about all the A.I. at that time, and we are talking about what we're talking about, a toy problem. So the question we try to answer at the time is, articulate answer are basically is artificial problem. Okay. So that's how you're thinking about artificial intelligence to try to solve the artificial problem, basically, it doesn't mean anything. But today, you can see, actually, the technology is getting real. And the problem we're trying to solve is really the heart is a real problem. Okay. So, so big change is, you know, at least from my experience, from an and the shaky technology saw an artificial problem, and we really have a great technology to solve the real problem and our problem. That's a big change.
You mentioned how how AI can also change the way that we think. Yeah. How do you see that relationship?
It's actually very direct. Okay. And when we're talking about, you know, people talking about like computing power, and when talking about computing, how said, okay, we have like ten X times. Okay, we're talking about that. But I was thinking about the time, okay, why? You know, change. We are just thinking. And let me put it that way. And if I give you like a million times of computing power, you would change the way of doing things. Okay? Just like, okay, I'll give you a bike, and you have it, always thinking about how you get from Hong Kong to Shanghai or to Hangzhou. But I give you a car, and you have a different way of thinking how to get there. But if given airplane, it's another story. Okay? And so the the airplane is our, you know, limitation to thinking about how to get from Hong Kong to Hangzhou, unless I give you a rocket, and then just completely in the way I was thinking about how to do things. So as in the computing changed our way of thinking, doing things like that way. Okay. Yeah.
Then how does that relate? If you're saying that this reaches a point where you're sort of like, if you're talking about transportation, rather you've gone from the, from walking to the bike to your car to the rocket. Yeah. What about then, that evolution that people talk about from A.I. to AGI to ASI, general to super? I mean, is that the right way of thinking about it?
A. Certainly, I don't like this kind of, you know, classification. Okay. So the AI is AI. The only thing we could say that we have A.I. to superior or whatever you call superior is okay? It just means, it just means that evolution, it just means you get more capability. That's it. It's really hard to differentiate them, you know. So just like a, you know, even for the human growth. Okay, we from the kindergarten to the PhD, just continuum. Okay. Certainly your capabilities grow. But but it's very hard cause that, you know, really the fundamental difference. Okay, kids has great learning ability. Okay. That's pretty much assumed like a lot of students.
What about the shift to embodied? I mean, a lot of companies are getting into humanoid robots. So, yeah. What's what's your view?
It's also it's a very interesting, interesting phenomena, I would say, because if you look at as three years ago, not mention about a 50 years ago, it's very specific. I would say it's very narrowed area. So at that time, it's AI, nature, languages, nature language, and the computer vision is computer vision. And the robotics global is yes, this is different discipline. Okay. But today that I've become a big basket. Okay. So, so the person will work on the nature of having to say, okay, we're working on the AI, which is due to the. Okay. So, so I think the the, the data that you have to you have to make sure the robotics is a robotics. Okay. And so what I see is robotics, whether you call it robotics, is an, I'm not sure, but whatever AI produced could be deployed. In the robot. That's true. Okay. And so that's different. See, though, I say the robotics is as a very different feel that that says stuff. Fundamental technology is different. And but it it needs AI. So it's more like, okay, the the, if the car is a car, and you have the diesel engine before, but today that we have EV cars. Okay. And so engine is different. As a for me, just a I provide a different engine for the robotics. That's what I what I'm thinking about robotics. Okay. Yeah.
How do you see China's AI landscape then evolving over the coming months or years?
Yeah, I think that we are very interested in for China is we just have opportunity to explore, to explore millions of things. And people are just fascinated by technology. They are doing a lot of different things. Some, you know, probably most of them would be gone, you know, as I said, in five or ten years. But that's not bad. Okay. And just to help us to explore design, that's Wednesday. The second thing is really I about that, you know, how you view the market in China. So, you know, 30 or 40 years ago, when people were talking about the market in China, we are talking about establish a market. So basically, it's basically market for you to sell things. Okay, that's that's typical, you know, it way we are talking about the market. Okay. But but in my experience working under Alibaba Cloud, I would say the market has a very important function is how to make a technology mature. So you can test your technology very quickly in the market. Okay. So technology would never get matured until go to market. So today, actually, China market has a very, very important and our pre a very important role ages how to establish new technology and to make make sure that technology is mature enough, and even a testbed for the new technology. So market is not a traditional market it anymore. It's basically it's in a testbed of our new technology. I think of the China could play a very big role of that value.
Even if the sometimes I mean, we know the innovation cycle in Chinese AI has been very fast. Yeah, yeah. But what happens if that slows down? I mean, sometimes people I'm hearing concerns, for instance, Deep Sea hasn't released the second reasoning model. Is that something that you need to be worried about?
Uh, let's see. I would say as just a single organization or single person, you really cannot go there fast for a long time. Okay? You know, you're your class, okay? Like, you know, I can work in, like, for three days and without any sleep. But. But not anymore. Okay? Not anyway. And you have to be. You cannot, like, work 30 days and to have any sleep. Okay? There's no way you could do that work ethic in China. Yeah. Yeah. But I would say collectively we can have an a very fast iteration. Okay. Like that. So that's why I really like a stop start a mindset. So basically, you know, like Deep Sea could do something very fast. Okay. And, and then we also have we. Okay. And then like Kimi, okay. So, so, so collectively, and we can push that fast. I think that's okay. So that's what I that's what I think it's important. Otherwise, why would use that population. Okay. So that's why, you know, when people get together, and it's not just for, you know, competition, whether you win or not, it's basically you can have the very fast iteration of the technology because of this competition, or because, you know, and, and you you work fast this time, and you still are, but then other guy will very fast, and eventually be so tiny bit. And if you're good enough, you can catch them again. And it's, I don't think it's a brutal, but I think it's it's a very healthy because and that, and what we work with the people that is very competitive, that would be make you very much more competitive because that was the way how how accessing the new technology invented it. Yeah, yeah.
You're talking I guess about more of a marathon, not just a sprint race. Yes. Is there space, though, for new contestants to enter that race today?
I would say at least for AI, it's a marathon because I think a nobody could really see, you know, if it's an hour long journey, it is staffing in the very beginning. So in that sense, you know, in a any short term way, it's not important. And it's not like, you know, it again, I will say this a very important judgment are all you have to. But I think we have to make that a judgment is, you know, whether any advantage you have today is a barrier for other people to catch up. Okay. But I personally, I didn't I didn't see any advantage of today will become the barrier for other people to catch up. Okay. It's just not a very early process to not turn it to the next stage. Okay. And so that's why it's very exciting, very exciting time for that. Anything that at any stage, anything that actually every day new things happen. It's exciting time, especially for youngsters. Okay. Yeah.
You mentioned Kimi from Moonshot and, yeah, Alibaba's own model. I mean, is there any of the of the small language models, the large language models that stand out to you in particular in China today?
Actually, there's a I would say there's a lot. And but because of that, you'd really want to get get to know by other people. That's hard. China is really an and and a country that benefit from the stable mindset. So obviously, if you look at the young people, you know, for at least for for the people that I have had a chance to to to to reach. They have very good stab at the mindset of and the particular like in an area like a like a Hangzhou, and also this area, you know, that is just beyond Sderot, that area. I'm not sure they know about some of the saying that in Hangzhou, I don't have the statistics, but but it's basically the people talking about. So if you counting the people in Hangzhou, and every four or five people there was there is a CEO. Okay. So it just means people just love to do some things. So it is a it is fascinating. And I think it's still good for the for the for the. I'd love to say that statistic, one in five on the streets of Hangzhou being a being a, you know, hometown vice. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
When it comes to building an AI model today in China, what's the biggest challenge? And is it on getting it to market and, and getting that that awareness and getting people to to use it? Or is it more on the building side?
And I would say that the creativity is and, and the reason I said I, I really think you know, I have an equation about what's the challenge. You have Internet. And people always said, okay, the computing power probably is the barrier for us to do that. Okay. Actually, I don't think at this moment long term it is, but I just I don't think it is. Okay. So particularly in the in the in the last six miles or 12 miles, that's particularly true in a way. That's what I want to say is, you know, why I say it's the creativity, you know, the foundation models from Qi and a from Deep Sea are good enough. They are already much better than full pond. Okay? So we really need to fund to some some people that with creativity to write applications for that. And so today I will see we are in terms of application, we are so much biased by okay, because the everybody saw that the Chad Djibouti is the only application that can secure. So basically, I would say that's much more a scenario his thinking board and build an application that that we the scale, it just like Chad Djibouti, that would be easier. So the number one is really funded rather than write the application for that. Yeah.
I'm taking a look at the book here that you wrote about. Also the journey around on Alibaba Cloud and your vision for the business. And a foreword is written by Jack Ma. Yeah. And, and he says that the first time he met you, he was shocked by your vision of the future of Internet technology and also that he wished that you've met earlier. What I find interesting, though, is that you actually had to convince him and others that at Alibaba that cloud was the right business.
Yeah, because, you know, fundamentally, I was there. The cloud is is very different Internet business fundamentally. Okay. So but thinking about, you know, almost 20 years ago. The the core Internet of mindset is everywhere. So for the cloud computing is not that fit in that sense. That's one thing. The stagnation of kokumi is very different in terms of business. I always said to my colleagues, I'm very lucky to working on the first. It's a technology, not like any other business. You know, I started with a business, a business business, and a technologist helping a business. Okay. A compete in that case. So you have to have the technology first. That's the key. So it's a it's a technology. The second, you know, not every not every technology could become the business. Okay? That's why I will always say the only, you know, only 1% technology could be at a business. It's actually not even 90% technology, just technology. So we're very lucky. Okay. It's a business. And more important, it's a it's a it's a lasting business. So think of a business, you know, have this life cycle in every ten years, you have to thinking about another opportunity. Okay. The computing is a is a very good, it could last for another, you know, 50 or 100 years. Okay. Because the computing is so fundamental. So when we use it analogy about, you know, between the electricity and a computing, it's me a lot of things, okay. So electricity is a lasting business. It would be there for another 100 years. Okay. So that's the hard part for for, for the people to really understand. So at the very beginning, it is hard. Yeah.
Do you think that you knew, though, when you were starting it that it would become the key growth pill that it is today? I mean, it started as sort of a support to e-commerce. Today, this is one of the brightest spots of the company.
I can't say I can say that actually as an apprenticeship. You know, today, actually, the AI is the big customer of the company. Okay. I can say I have that prediction. Okay. But that but that I'm I'm sorry. I said I'm sorry. I said I did. I did expand on the AI's come so soon. Okay. I'm sorry to see that. Okay. Yeah, but I do believe that that was the only coming so that would come in, But. But I just. It's just too good. Too is too good for me. Okay. Yeah. And but, but I do believe that actually it is not good business and because the Internet. So so you can see it as a there's a very interesting if there is a new internet, there was no business like called computing. But as of Wednesday, that's actually what I what I put in this book is the Internet to bring the date together. So it's not a traditional business, okay? It didn't bring together the Internet to bring the date together. And so I truly believe that the data would change fundamentally for us to in the business. Okay. But what I didn't realize is the data combined, the model that actually created something called the AI and the change the way of doing business. Okay, that's the easy. So we put it to the data, but we failed to realize early on that actually, you know, when computing and data together with the model, then actually change the way that we're doing the business. Yeah.
It was a really tough challenge for you. I think that people sometimes maybe just just brush over the fact like starting a whole cloud business from scratch when it didn't exist in China at that time. And there's obviously a handful of companies in the US doing it. I know you look to some of them for inspiration, but. But what were the biggest challenges that you faced?
Uh, first I want to say how lucky I am now. So I like, you know, believe or not. Okay, I never wrote in that business proposal. 40 5:00 Really? Yeah. So that basically means you have no way to run a business. Although you had push back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. That basically you had no way to run a business. For what? Okay, so personally, I don't like this proposal. So when they're talking about innovation, I don't like business proposal. Okay. First of all, I guess that's why I said I'm very biased. And so so basically, you know, way you can write business. So the only way you can do that is don't like that. Okay, let's see why people have issues with it. That was so that's that's why I'm I'm very lucky. Okay. So if you're talking about how hard it is, it's everybody think they are doing the the of business. Okay. So even with Alibaba, and because it was so new, and you really can cannot tell what it is. Okay. So that's a that's a that's a very that's a very challenge. But a certainly again, I'm very lucky. And, and when I started business and the Internet, China is booming at the moment, and we have a Starbucks. Okay. So. Actually, the first the money I got is is actually about a stab a look. Yeah, that was that was really it was really memorable. Yeah. For so that's why I love the small companies. Yeah. I love the present day. I don't have anything that's, that was, that was, that had it out there. But I think something that we see right now is, is certainly money that's being directed at strong talent. Yeah. And, and there's stories of course in the in Silicon Valley, we see people that are getting hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. What do you think about that?
I think it's a I don't think it's it's the. Let's see. It's a typical way of doing things. How is it that the reason? Very simple, you know. Example, when I when I started that that that even like cloud, you know, the first thing I did that was in Tucson eight, the first I did it to get to Silicon Valley and to try to get ten and okay, Well, and, and after talking to all the people and realize actually, we don't have much attention there because you okay. Yeah. So and also with some of the terrain, it just too expensive. Okay. And to itself, basically means okay, you don't know whether the cannabis is there, when is high, when is high people. So it's really about innovation. So when you are in the early stage of innovation, I don't think a patent is a problem because, you know, the only thing you need to do is to get the right person. Not really is expensive person, because if the new business, if this is true innovation, that basically means you talent and nobody cares about them. Okay? And I was working working on that. So for the today what happened for the like of matter is because they are very much a focus on the existing success of the business and existing. It's Aboriginal all the technology, that's the that, that's that's my view. Okay. So I think we have a tremendous opportunity to look at technology. Nobody knows today. And these talent, these are current, but, but these are I can say it's cheap, but it, but it's, it's available for you. Okay. So that's really about a vision, you know, where you want to, where you want to go. And there's a lot of similar scenes, you know, happened during the last 20 years. Also, whenever everybody knows that these are talent, and it's better for you not to Getty and Edison, that that's not new. That's that's my that's my So like personally, that I hide that's okay. You know, he's had he's a leader for the king, you probably met him, you know, when you're in your hands or, you know, a present to interview him. You know, 15 years ago, I would got ten. And now he's reading the Cree. Yeah, but so that's so there's not really any justification then it sounds like you think so. Yeah. So now you that's now you know what the Met, you know. I'm sorry. What, what the what happened in Silicon Valley is not the the the, the the winning formula. That's what I, that's what I believe, you know. Yeah.