5 Signs You’re A High-Masking Autistic With ADHD | Dr Carly Jones

ADHD and autism are on a spectrum of some sort. Something happens. This kind of drift between neurodivergent and neurotypical, and the dynamics change. As we kind of get older, it can be very, very tricky. Society says I need to have x amount of friends, and it's almost like this friendship is actually really unhealthy for me. However, I'd rather have this really unhealthy relationship than be completely on my own.

Dr. Carly Jones MB is a trailblazing influence in the ADHD and autism space. With over 20 years of experience, she has dedicated her life to making the world a better place for people with ADHD.

When you're on autopilot, you're people-pleasing. And when you're people-pleasing, you lose all autonomy. You've got to say yes because people smile, they grin, they're happy, and then we don't realize what we're getting ourselves into, and it gets deeper and deeper and deeper.

There's a lot of push and pull, a lot of contrasting traits sometimes that can create challenges. But do you have any hacks that could bring them together harmoniously?

I think it's going to differ for everyone. For some people, it might.

Huge announcement just before we start. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theater show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists, and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD. How to process a late diagnosis of ADHD, and of course, the dreaded rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs, and insights, and one that will remind you that you're not broken, just different, and that you have always been enough. It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person.

Dr. Carly Jones, welcome. A huge honor to have you here. This is the ADHD episode I've been waiting a long time to have. I think there's a lot to cover, like what ADHD feels like, how to know if somebody is ADHD and not just ADHD, and also like the risks of being undiagnosed and how if someone is living with ADHD but not knowing it, what are the potential hidden consequences of that? So, to start with, if someone's listening or watching and they have ADHD, how might they know that they are also or ADHD?

Oh, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it? I mean, some academics might say everyone's both. Some academics might say, "No, you're definitely this or definitely that." And I, and I wish I could answer it. And, and I don't know if I can, Alex, because also, just as being autistic, um, you're not kind of fixed somewhere on this spectrum. You might have higher daily care needs at the point of diagnosis or lower daily care needs at the point of diagnosis, but throughout the lifespan, that can completely change. And, um, being a woman that's almost 44, um, hormones have got to have something to do with it. And I've watched a few of your podcasts with some incredible, um, uh, ADHD women and doctors on, and something happens when you're perimenopausal. It's almost like my ADHD, I'm like, "Yes, I know you're there. Just sit down, be quiet." No, no, no. You know, I know you're there. I can manage this. And there's something that happens, and I don't think it's a bad thing. Um, that when you go into perimenopause, it's almost like your ADHD is like, "I'm here." Um, and I don't necessarily, I don't think that's an easy thing, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Um, because it makes you, um, very good at not suffering fools anymore. And I feel actually a bit annoyed with my ADHD traits, um, because I'm like, "Come on, you could have kicked in a bit earlier." Um, because you're, uh, you're quite, you're quite feisty. I quite like you. Um, so I wish I could answer that. I don't know. Um, I think ADHD and autism are, are, are on a spectrum of some sort. And I think it's the way that they're either your enemy or your friend throughout your life and how to navigate them. I'm not diagnosed with ADHD. I was diagnosed as autistic at 32. Um, I've always been aware there's been some hyperactive, inattentive traits. Um, and it's day by day as to what that might look like. So, um, it's a surprise for us all.

It's such a huge conversation on the autism side. Like, do you think there are some traits of autism that are so subtle, like almost unrecognizable, that it could make someone go under the radar for so long?

Yeah. So, um, let's assume we're thinking on the, the academics that think, no, no, ADHD is one thing, autism is another thing. If that were the case, and there were, and there was kind of, you know, what to you would feel different. And I say this in a personal capacity. Part of the diagnostic criteria for being diagnosed as autistic is having, um, daily, uh, daily challenges, um, which, which affect your everyday life with, with social imagination. So, not traditional imagination, you know, there's some great poets, actors, and all, and all that, and dancers, whatever. Um, but that social imagination in a social context. This happens. I say this, someone else says this, this could be the consequence. Um, and that's personally for me, what I struggle with most as being autistic. So, that is my kind of primary, primary challenge, if you like. I've never been able to, in a personal capacity, in a professional capacity, I'm really good at it. Um, but in a personal capacity, I've never been able to mitigate risk for myself. I've only had to make tons and tons and tons of mistakes, been vulnerable tons and tons and tons of times to go, "Oh, the last time this happened, or the last three times this happened." As my mother used to always say, "Carly, you don't learn from your mistakes, you just make bigger ones." Um, is, is I've learned from events, uh, and life experience to go, actually, in hindsight, um, kept in hindsight, as they often say, then this isn't a good idea. So, I actually think making mistakes and failing is a beautiful thing, um, which I think gives you resilience, doesn't it? So, I think it would be the social imagination part for me, and that's one of those things which is so hidden in plain sight to other people observing us, but for us, it's all-consuming.

My granny, she's dead now, but my granny was northern. And I won't try and do a northern accent because I'm rubbish at it. And she used to call me many names. Um, but she used to, in a, in a fun, nice northern way. Um, but she used to always say to me, "Oh, Carly, it's, um, there's nothing wrong with you. It's all them other buggers." We don't know if we can say buggers. I just did. Sorry, Luke. Um, but, um, and she used to sit down and play this game with me as a child, which was the consequence game. Have you ever played that?

No. How, what are the rules of that game?

Um, so you have one, we would have one bit of paper and one pen, and I would write a sentence, first sentence to a story. Fold it up so you can't see what I've just written. Send, send it over to you. You'd write the next sentence, fold it up so I can't see it. We do the whole A4 page of that. So at the end, it kind of looks like a concertina fan. We undo it and we read up the story. And it's funny because it's a nonsense story because I only know what's going on in my head, my agenda for the story. And similarly, you only know the story and the agenda in your head for that story. So, it's a funny story. It doesn't make sense. And social imagination is very, very hard to describe to other people because if someone said to me, "Oh, talk to me about social imagination." It would be a bit like, um, asking somebody that's been blind since birth, "Tell me your favorite shades of purple." I don't know. Right. So, this, this game though, I do sometimes with parents, um, if I'm doing any, uh, talks or training around social imagination, because you really never know where something's going to end up. Um, and if you're playing that game with your granny, or if we were to play it here together, it's, I know it's going to be a light-hearted, funny story. It's not going to be dark and terrifying. Um, but I can't switch that off. That's every phone call, every WhatsApp message, every work meeting, every relationship, every everything. It's just acting on autopilot. Um, and, and hoping for the best. Um, which can lead you into terrible situations. And similarly, you might go, "I had no idea this story was going to be so good." And you have to pick who's in your circle. You think...

I think it's such a relatable experience. You're putting out one version of yourself into the world, and that version is met with various responses. And especially if you're such an internalized person, and you feel like you're living inside your head sometimes, behind your eyes, and what the world is seeing is this version of you, this masked version of you. And I guess it probably, over a time period, does all fall into place and make sense, but it can be incredibly confusing and the source of such a disconnect between, like, how you feel about yourself and sometimes what messaging the world is giving you.

Someone with ADHD, how might masking look like? Say, a typical person with ADHD goes to a party, like, what, what presentation might that look like?

Um, I think it's going to differ for everyone. For some people, it might be. And you see that I'm clasping my hands at the moment. And I know we get a break after half an hour, but I, I'm holding my hands.

Alex.

We can have a break whenever you like.

No, no, no, no. I'm having a great time. I, I'm clasping my hands because that's my natural, very subtle masking because otherwise, I'm like this all the time. Um, and as a kid, I can remember, um, I remember my mom saying to someone, I was Italian, I think she said, or something. "Oh, she's just Italian." Because people are constantly flapping her hands. I'm not Italian. Part Swedish and, and Welsh, actually, but, you know, those sort of things. And that do, oh, do advert and peace goes do me all day. And they used to say, "Cuz I used to flap my hands. Had dark hair." But anyway, I, I'm rambling. Um, it could be something as small as, I'm not going to flap my hands. I'm going to sit on my hands. And what happens after that? Start rocking because I'm trying to not show my autistic self. And that has become very subconscious for me, actually. Um, I'm getting more insight as I go along. It could be avoiding eye contact, or trying to do eye contact, but instead of the, I mean, when do you look and when do you stop looking? Okay. So my doctor taught me to always look at people's noses. So, I could probably identify people just by their noses. Now, I'm face blind. Anything else? Just show me the nose because I'm only looking at noses or foreheads, you know. Um, those, those sort of things. So, it could be as simple as trying to hide your stems. Um, trying not to talk too much about your special interests. Now, I just, you know, talk to me about black Labradors all day, trains, planes, um, which is ironic because they're very stereotypical male autistic interests. Um, and, and those sort of things. Uh, and also, it can be quite physical as well, you know. Um, it could be, I'm trying more now in my 40s to go, "Okay, well, I like this outfit, so therefore I'm going to wear this outfit." And there are occasions where you have to go, "Well, out of politeness to the host, I'm going to dress in a particular way because that's obviously what the dress code is." Um, and I say obviously, Alex, I can remember getting my first black tie event invitation, and I wore a black tie.

That's the why, why would you not? If that's what it says, and if you're a literal thinker.

Yeah. Why would that make total sense?

Yeah. I wore, I wore a black tie and a white shirt because I was like, "It's a black tie event. Better find a black tie." No idea what that meant. So, not obviously at all. I've made quite a few mistakes. Put that one in the mistake book so I don't repeat it. Um, you know, or it could be, uh, makeup, or it could be anything. And a lot of the time when I see particularly younger, um, younger people, um, and they might be kind of, uh, very gothy, or or have a very certain, quite pronounced, uh, cool, absolutely cool. I think goth is cool, um, dress sense, I'm like, "Yeah, they're probably autistic or or ADHD because it's, that's a, you know, a really strong physical mask." Um, so it can look different for everyone. Masking is a tricky thing though. It used to be a big enemy of mine, in a way, because, a, it's exhausting if you're going to do that on a physical level. Um, and it's also exhausting if you're covering up your stims because we're doing it for some sort of reason, be that the ADHD and the hyperactivity, or if that's an autistic stim, or perhaps both. U maybe this hand does the hyperactivity and this hand does the autism. Who knows? Um, but exhausting mentally because every time you mask yourself, you erode a little bit more of your self-esteem. And if you're eroding your self-esteem, you're eroding your sense of self. And if you erode your sense of self, then you're going to be really depressed. And I guess when you don't have a sense of self, it's very hard to know what jobs are good for you, what jobs are good for you, what relationships are right for you.

I very much relate to the masking and specifically the eye contact. Um, and I think when you struggle with eye contact and you force yourself to maintain it, and then when it's your turn to speak, you just blank.

And you don't know what to say. You genuinely feel like you're stupid. Or I certainly do. And I feel like that over years and years and years, it can really erode your self-confidence and your ability to put yourself in social situations. Like, I, I have a pen in my hand doing this chat today, and I think that is certainly my stim. If I don't have a pen, I panic.

What do I do with my hands now?

And I guess that's probably masking. For me,

wearing the same clothes every day, or I have multiple versions of this outfit. For me, is unmasking. For, for I used to feel like I had to wear different outfits every single day. And the amount of effort that that took in my brain to decide what to wear every day actually, like, took me away from my ability to think and to strategize and to and to grow my business and the podcast. But when I actually just said to myself, "Actually, no, I'm going to, I found an outfit I like. It feels nice. I like the materials. I'm going to wear that every day." And I could just wake up, put it on. The amount of friction that was erased from my morning routine just, just by that making that tiny adjustment. But I feel like if you don't have an awareness of all of these things we're talking about, and you, you carry on masking, you carry on putting that extra effort into, into deciding what to wear, or or maintaining eye contact, and you go on and on and on feeling broken, feeling misunderstood, feeling like there's genuinely something wrong with you because the consequence of, of not knowing what to say when it's your turn to speak in a conversation is met with an eye roll, or "Did you hear what I just said, Alex?" again. Like, what do you think are the long-term consequences of somebody being undiagnosed or ADHD?

Well, the first point I'd like to say before that, I think you are exceptionally intelligent. I think you're really, really bright. And I saw this thing because I spend too much time on Instagram for women in her 40s. Um, I just love all the funny things and I communicate by like sending them to friends and things. Um, and my daughters sent each other some horrific things. Um, but, uh, you, I saw this kind of real, and is that the word? I'm trying to be cool, Alex.

Yes, that's the one.

And it was, uh, something about, "Oh, I masked myself to be just like them, and now they're calling me stupid." "Don't dumb yourself down for the world." I think would be a good message to particularly younger, younger adults or listening. You don't have to. You know, I, I, I know of one autistic woman, and I'm not dissing Love Island. It's not my type of show. I'd like to watch the House of Commons live because I'm that cool. Um, but, um, there was, I know of one autistic woman that noticed the girls at work, in the lunchtime, all they spoke about was Love Island. So, she hated Love Island, but she went home every night and watched Love Island and took notes and researched to then pretend that she liked Love Island so she could make friends at work. Um, and she was like, "Well, actually, I wanted to talk about science, or I wanted to talk about this bit of tech that I'm really interested in." If I'd done that, it would have gone, "Oh, she's a bit weird or a bit different." Um, and so, yeah, I think, and I'm not saying that people watch Love Island are dumb. I know some very intelligent people that watch Love Island, but, um, but don't, yeah, that that makes me really sad. So, I, that makes me really, really sad that that, you know, you felt stupid. Um, and I think it's living authentically. You have to be, it takes a lot of bravery because you've, particularly in the past, if there's been bullying, or if there's been, um, times where being yourself has made you really vulnerable, takes an awful lot of bravery to, to authentically be yourself and decide who, who, who's safe to do that around. And the question around, around the risk of that, I think there's a huge safe, and obviously safeguarding, special interest, even above black Labradors, um, which I don't have a black Labrador, by the way, um, one day, one day it will happen, um, is, um, you, when you're on autopilot, you're people-pleasing. And when you're people-pleasing, you lose all autonomy. And it's so much easier if you're people-pleasing and your only focus is to, uh, survive this act, if you like, around people, to fit in. You've got to say yes because saying yes, people smile, they nod, they grin, they're happy, and all you're thinking is, "Yeah, I'm winning at social, being social." Um, no, no comes with perhaps a loss of friendship. No comes with, um, you know, "Why not?" And then this huge debate around, "Why not?" or potentially not being invited somewhere. And so people just say yes, right? And then we don't realize what we're getting ourselves into, and it gets deeper and deeper and deeper. Um, and you fall too far in to fall back out. And I think there's a huge safeguarding there issue with masking as well. I'm just, I'm thinking about the, the, the lady you mentioned who went home and watched Love Island, and so she literally changed her viewing habits in order to feel like she had some kind of input into the conversation at work. So she probably pulled herself away from a special interest or something that she really wanted to do that evening.

And that is really sad. Do you think that people-pleasing element, that tendency to say yes and put yourself in situations that aren't aligned with what you are really passionate about, but you're saying yes to it? You're turning up to that event because you don't want to let people down. Can that particular characteristic create a vulnerability? And what might that vulnerability be towards? If you're an ADHD woman, is that a risky area to be in?

I, I think it can be. I think we're so misunderstood anyway. Um, we're so misunderstood, particularly when masking a lot, be that through appearance, or be that through the way that we might talk to talk with other people. Um, and then that, that misunderstanding just gets wider and wider. And that was, that was particularly tricky in my, in my 20s. Um, you know, thinking, "Oh, well, this is what everyone else is doing, and I should go along with this." And, and, you know, even more so in my, in my early teens as well, um, because you're not really living authentically. And just like that example of someone that's going to watch something they don't want to watch, that's then kind of absorbed into their downtime, to their recovery time, their processing time. Um, and so vulnerabilities to mental health, for sure. Um, vulnerabilities to happiness, and vulnerabilities in perhaps not meeting all the people you should have met. You know, there's that great quote, isn't it? Um, "I was blue, but I didn't tell anyone else I was blue, and there was somebody else that was blue, and they didn't tell anyone else, and we never met each other." Um, you know, yeah.

So, just go out there and, and be your weird, weird, authentic self. And you've got to meet the right people that should be in your world. Um, because you're not people-pleasing. You're, you're being yourself. And that's tricky. And I say that as something that's still rubbish at it. Not saying I've cracked that one, like, no way, you know. Um, but, yeah, huge, huge vulnerabilities to, to safe, personal safety to one extreme, and, and, and unhappiness.

Putting yourself in front of a TV show that you don't want to watch, but you're doing it to please someone else, seems like a a type of behavior that could escalate into more vulnerable situations. I mean, if you're an ADHD woman or an ADHD man, and you have this tendency to put other people's first, you put other people's needs ahead of your own, like, how severely dangerous could that get?

But it's self-erasure, isn't it? You're erasing yourself. Um, and kind of thinking, "Well, if you're around, I'm not saying that another person might be particularly bad person, but somebody that's not suitable for you for XY Z reasons." You're kind of erasing yourself and thinking, "Well, I'll be less. I'll be less because they need more. I'll be less." Then you're going to end up in some really sticky situations because when does that stop? At what level does that stop? And if you, boundaries are a hard thing to learn for, for any person. Um, but I think particularly for, um, autistic or women of ADHD, it's, um, I mean, we're so vulnerable as it is. 91% of us experience sexual violence for the, um, you know, within our lives. Um, I think it was 52% of those before the age of 15. You know, we're so vulnerable anyway. It's, I just think boundaries should be taught at school from a, boundaries and consent should be taught from a really, for everyone, from a really early age. And, you know, that the power of the word "no," um, in small situations, so then when larger situations happen, it's, it's not as new, like, not this new world of, "Oh my gosh, I just set my first boundary." You know, "Wow, let's get a cake." Um, you know.

Very tricky.

I suppose if you are somebody who's, who feels different, who feels broken, who has been told by probably so many people in their early years that, you know, "What's wrong with you? Why are you so sensitive? Calm down." You feel like you're almost starved of praise and positive comments and nice messages. If you're someone like that, and, and we know that's heightened in the neurodivergent community, are you more susceptible to being love-bombed? Or gosh, like, if someone...

Are you more, like the low-hanging fruit, or a toxic person who might prey on that vulnerability?

I, I tend to make jokes at inappropriate times because it's my coping mechanism. But, um, I have said to colleagues before who work in law enforcement, I've said, you know, "If you're trying to find a local predator, and you're not sure who it is, just put us both in the nightclub at the same time. They'll find me in five minutes. It's almost as if it's on my front, you know, on my forehead. Pick me." And I don't know why. And other autistic and, and ADHD women will have had very, very similar experiences. Um, I can't see the sign. Um, red roses. You know, someone come up to me with a bunch of red flags, or look like red roses to me. And I think there's this, from an autistic perspective, I do not know if someone's flirting with me. At all. I'm not reading any body language. I'm, I'm not understanding that. I mean, first of all, I have no concept why anyone would, would want to flirt with me. I don't, because that's in their brain. That's not in my brain. I, and then I have no idea what flirting is. So the only way I'm going to know that, say, you know, and gentle might think, "Well, I've done enough, and she's obviously not interested. I'll back off." Yeah, because that's what gentlemen do. That's what nice guys do. The only way for me to know somebody is interested in me is that love-bombing. Love-bombing to me is kind of like mild flirting. "Oh, that's quite, oh, they must like me because they've literally directly said, X, Y, Z." Um, "Right, let's, let's get a house together." "Oh, we only known each other three months." "Sure, I'll sell my house." Um, you know, and I'm so love-bombing for me would would feel like that, "Oh, they're interested." So, I would not understand the subtleties. So, um, I'm not saying that men that are gentlemen should also become love-bombers. Please don't. But it, you know, direct comms. Can we just go back to like, when we were seven, and, um, a boy at school would write you a note and you had to like, tick yes or no. I mean, it's the most autistic-friendly time to be alive, right? It's so clear. Um, kind of sweet, but if you ticked no, they wouldn't do it again. If we could just go back to that as adults, that would be great. Um, so I think it makes us incredibly vulnerable to that. And that kind of conditioning as well, completely unintentional conditioning. So in, in my, um, book, "Safeguarding Autistic Girls," um, in there, I, I write about this timeline of vulnerability, and I made a chart for it for the, uh, the Autism Act review that went through, um, for, for the House of Lords, and they very kindly published it on, on the government website. So, it's kind of like the five stages of vulnerability. And I think this would absolutely apply to, to ADHD, uh, women as well, and, and men. Um, and, and within that timeline, that starts with the early years, and let's say that you're the child in the, the car that's, uh, either fidgeting a lot. So, it's, you know, um, you can see, "No one else is doing that. Stop being so dramatic," or whatever it might be. Um, or, or the child is like, "The radio's really loud." "No, it's not. You're overreacting." Um, because other people aren't experiencing it that way. And it's completely unintentional conditioning, unintentional gaslighting.

But you go into the world, and you go into school, kind of five, going, "I'm too much. I'm too loud. I'm too annoying," maybe because I'm spinning around to Kate Bush with ring lights. Still do that. Still with a pair of scarves in my hand. I'm so excited about the film. I cannot tell you. Um, so, um, that wasn't a plug, by the way. Unless anyone wants to give me free tickets for Jacob Lardie, that would be fine. Far too young for me, but maybe line them up for my kids. Um, so, um, sorry, I was now thinking about Jacob Lardie.

I'm sure most of the audience are too.

New special interest. Forget Black Labs. Um, so, but you kind of go into the world going, "I'm the problem. Everyone else is right." So, it's very easy for that to then turn into, um, not recognizing and reporting any forms of abuse from, you know, from that age on. And, uh, and that's a real worry. And, and it's not parents' or carers' fault because we've all gone, "Oh my gosh, no, it's not. Pipe down. You know, we've got to be Auntie So-and-so at this time," or whatever. We've all done it. I have. Um, I hope the kids are all right. You know, 28, 23, and 18 now. Um, but, big hammock is very, very bumble.

Can, if there's an ADHD woman listening, can having an awareness of their vulnerability to being love-bombed protect them from it? Because I've got an awareness of RSD, I know that I'm vulnerable to criticisms, but even with all of the awareness that I have, it doesn't protect me from the visceral reaction in the moment. So if you are a vulnerable woman who is susceptible to dealing with dopamine and almost having an instant connection with someone if they love-bomb you because that messaging is so in contradiction to how you feel about yourself because of so many horrible messages that you've experienced. Can having an awareness of that protect you from the probably instant reaction which might make you gravitate towards that person? You deep down you know they're toxic, and you can see your intuition is telling you like, "This is that's a red flag," but it's such an instant visceral reaction that you go there anyway.

I think we will never be able to control our feelings or our chemical responses. I think that's just within us. Be that as humans, probably magnified times a thousand if you're neurodivergent. I think the, the safeguarding aspect, particularly as a, you know, as an adult, would be to surround yourself with other women with the same neurotype, or other male friends of the same neurotype, because it's, and I, I work a lot with, um, sexual violence, domestic violence charities. I'm a patron of a great one called Lotus, who specialize in neurodivergent women. And, uh, speaking to friends, um, personal experience friends, and also the, the charities that I work with, we really struggle to safeguard ourselves sometimes, lifelong. But we're very, very good at safeguarding our fellow, uh, tribe member, our autistic or ADHD, or both, um, friends. And I really, really now rely on, on a close circle of friends, both male and female, to go, "What do you think of this?" And they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, that's, that's, that's quite sweet," or "Absolutely not." Um, and, and vice versa. I do that, that for them. Um, and then really having to trust them. And, and actually, it's not trust because they're your friends, but it's having to go, "This feels, just because something feels right, it might not be right."

Uh, let the chemicals go through. Let the chemicals pass, right? Go find a good book.

Why are we good at protecting our friends but not ourselves?

I think it's because we haven't got that chemical imbalance going on for, because if it's them, because that's happening to them. Yeah. But that, that huge dopamine rush, which feels a lot like love, um, and sometimes is, and sometimes sadly isn't. Um, they're not experiencing that. So they're able to be rational and go, "Okay, I'm coming with this from a rational point of view." And obviously, you don't have a friend that's like, "Well, I don't want her not being single anymore because she's really good fun and she's single." You have a friend that genuinely wants you to be happy. Yeah. Um, I think that's why, because they're not, and you, and you can kind of recognize it, or you might have had similar experiences and gone, "Okay, well, I'm not going to say absolutely not, full stop, but I'm going to say, just, you need to slow it down a bit."

Is it possible for an ADHD woman to be abused in a social context? In other words, from people that she perceives to be friends, but actually they're walking over her and taking advantage of her kindness?

Absolutely. I think we see that quite clearly, even probably before, even in secondary school. And a lot of, um, autistic women, or, or ADHD women, and, and boys as well, um, friendships start to change around about 9 or 10. And sometimes, if a, if a parent was to message me and go, "My daughter," and they don't give any age range, and say, "You know, she was doing all right with friendships. It's all falling apart." And I'll go, "Is she in year six of primary school?" And they go, "Yeah, how did you know?" And I'm like, "It's just the age it happens." Something happens, this kind of drift between, uh, neurodivergent and neurotypical girls, because it's like the talking behind your back stuff, which to us is like, "Oh, just say it to my face, you know." Um, and, and the dynamics change in, in that part. So that happens. And as we kind of get older, it's, it could be very, very tricky for people because it might be, "Okay, so I want to have a friend," or society says, "I need to have x amount of friends." And particularly in secondary school, you know, um, to be popular, I have to do this, or, or I can't be seen not to have any friends. And it's almost like, "Well, actually, this friendship is actually really unhealthy for me." Um, however, I'd rather have this really unhealthy friendship relationship than be completely on my own. So, it's friendship at any cost. And there's gender dynamics around that as well. Um, which, which can be very, very challenging because it might be, "Well, this boy has been my friend, and I really like this boy being my friend." All of a sudden, he's now boyfriend. Because from their perspective, it might be, "Well, she obviously fancies me hanging around me for for ages, actually, just really like being your friend." And then it's like, "Well, do I go along with it? Because do I go along with this? Because actually, it's better to go along with that, even though I'm not really into it, because it's better than being alone?" And, and I think loneliness has got a lot, a lot to answer for in that. And also those kind of societal expectations of, "Well, you're in your 20s, aren't you? Going out to the pub every night, you know, and the clubs?" Or, "Oh, you're in your 30s, shouldn't you be married? And shouldn't you be doing this?" And, you know, and all of these kind of things. There's that societal expectations which can make us quite vulnerable to that. I've known some horrific, um, one of the worst ones I've known of, um, is cuckooing. Um, and do you know what cuckooing is?

No. Explain what that is.

So, it's, it's a term often used by, um, by the police and, and safeguard users. And it's after the cuckoo bird, which will go into a nest that's not his, kick out all the chicks to take over the nest. Not a very nice bird, actually. Sorry, bird lovers out there. Um, and I, I, but in, on a human, in a human way. So, um, what these particular people will do will, um, find a home that isn't theirs. Um, let, uh, pretend to be completely in love, and sometimes even not move themselves in, essentially throw everything up in the air, just because they want to have that particular house, or that particular lifestyle, or, or whatever. And I know of a woman, oh gosh, it was awful. She, um, lived alone. She had a disabled child, and this man had, um, moved in. And she was, you know, fantastic. Obviously, the woman's neurodivergent as well, but a child had physical disability. And, um, started off lovely, and within kind of six months, her and her disabled, physically disabled daughter were literally sleeping in a shoe cupboard. He had the whole house for him, for his friends, for his hobbies, for his, um, equipment that he used to have in the house, having parties every night, and they were in a shoe cupboard. Um, and that was the cost of, um, of that social vulnerability, and also, "Well, this is better than being alone." And it's absolutely heartbreaking. And, and the woman did get out of it, and her child got out of it, but it was, yeah, horrendous. I mean, she, this particular woman, um, she married him. A charity supported her to get that annulled. It was horrendous. Horrendous. And that's obviously a very extreme case. It could be as simple as, "Oh, um, I've got these friends, but, um, I'm always the one that pays when we go out." Yeah. And, you know what? I'm all for feminism, and I'm all for everything being 50/50. But I've also been in, in relationships or in dating situations where it's like, "It's interesting. I'm the only one that ever pays." But that's maybe that's because I'm a really independent woman.

That's truly heartbreaking. And in, in that woman's example, I mean, when she got the awareness and was able to retrospectively look back at that situation, who does she blame? Because even though there's a clear villain there, the guy who was doing the cuckooing, is there a tendency to, even with that clarity of who the villain is, to blame yourself?

I think for, for this particular woman, it was primarily getting over the heartache of it, because there's part of you that wants to hold on to that, you know, wants to hold on to that, uh, first good six months, first good year, thinking, "He can get back to that." And we don't know, often be that social imagination, or just be that blind faith, or be that trauma bonding. Trauma bonding and neurodivergency, goodness me, what a pet peeve. Um, going, "Things will get better. Things will get better. Just a phase. Things will get better." And it's not until it's so bad that you're like, "And now I can't get out of it because I've got no friends left." You know, um, my, where's my support team? And again, going back to why, um, all of us as neurodivergent people need to have some really good friends around us to be quite blunt. But also within that, going, "Okay, I'm going to say this, but I'm also going to give you this to help you. Come and stay in mind for a bit. Come and do, you know, those sort of things." It's very good for us just going, "No, don't do that." Well, how are you going to support me? "Nothing. Absolutely nothing." You actually have to back that up with going, "Here's a plan."

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Is it part of the journey post-diagnosis, or post-awareness and recognizing that you are neurodivergent? Is there a huge amount of like self-forgiveness that goes on when you retrospectively look back and see some of the decisions that you made, particularly if you have a tendency of blaming yourself?

I think, I think that's probably the most vital part of a diagnosis, or at least self-awareness, self-identification, if, if we all know diagnosis is a, is a huge privilege. Um, is being able to kind of put those new lenses on and go, "Okay, that wasn't you. I'm not a bad character, or that's not my shame to carry." Or, "Yes, I, that was difficult. Um, but now to, to learn from it and, and move on." I often think about particularly masking, and after a diagnosis, and trying to get back to your authentic self. There's a great quote. I don't know who said it. It was on the internet. Could have been anyone. Um, but there's a great quote that says, um, "Remember who you are, who you were before the world got its hands on you." Love that. Just kind of, "Who am I?" And you need time alone to really think about that and to remember that. Um, and, and it's a bit like buying a house, buying an old house after diagnosis. And you get these keys, and you open the door, and, uh, you look at the wallpaper, think, "Oh, I'm not really sure I like that wallpaper." And this was always meant to be your house, right? It was like your dream house. Dreamed for this house since childhood. Open the door. Don't like the wallpaper. I'll take that off. Oh, gosh, there's another layer of wallpaper under it. Take that off. And you finally get past all these different layers down to the bare bricks of this house. You're like, "Why would anyone plasterboard and wallpaper on that? Look at those exposed beams. Look at those bricks. This house is fine." Just, it's better than fine. It's beautiful just as it is. And that to me is how I'm masking. And I don't think my unmasking is finished yet, but that to me is how it felt post-diagnosis, going, "Why were those layers of wallpaper put on there?" To please the next owner? To go with a certain trend? To, um, so-and-so's got that wallpaper, so I better have it because that's the thing that everyone does, so I better fit in. And actually, like, fine as it is, what on earth? And I think the longer it is before you either self-identify or get your diagnosis as, um, of neurodivergency, it can, the more layers, the more exhausting, the more tears, the more revisiting you have to do.

Does the amount of grief go up the later you're diagnosed? Do you think, "Oh my gosh, I have lost so many years to masking?"

I was diagnosed at 32, and I can remember thinking, "Oh, yeah, I'll probably be able to unmask, maybe like, six months or something." But actually, if you've been doing something for 32 years, or at least, you know, I'm pretty sure I was masking by the age of about three or four from some hilarious stories from my mother. Um, I think, I think so. Yeah. Think so. I think with masking as well, though, not to see it as the enemy, although it can have really significant impacts on, on our, on our well-being. Um, because I struggle with that social imagination and, and kind of knowing that social vulnerability, and I don't mind using vulnerability. Some people don't like the word. I don't mind using about myself. Um, masking can be my friend because the moment that I notice that I'm really masking, I don't have a gut instinct. I just don't. I, I rely on facts and fact-finding at work. It makes me really hypervigilant and to do doing the right thing and making, doing due diligence because I'm not just going to naturally have a feeling. I'm going to go, "What I need to know, black and white, show me everything." It's good at work. Personally, I can't go, "Right, I'm going to, uh, ring your ex-partner and ask for a reference." Might not be very reliable. Um, so, so work, but in personal life, not. And so instead of that gut feeling, I can't predict that. But now I know a lot more about myself and how I mask, I'm starting to mask my gut feeling because I wouldn't be masking if I didn't feel safe. And therefore, kind of gone, "Right, I can't get rid of this masking thing, but I can make it my friend because I'm going to put it to work."

So interesting. One of the key drivers or motivators for masking seems to be to be almost bulletproof and invincible.

Or at least shielded from RSD.

If I put out this version that's different to the, the inner child, the, the version of me that's been told 20,000 times that I'm too sensitive, not enough, too much, too dramatic, then I almost protect myself from criticisms.

RSD is brutal. It's a big conversation at the moment. How have you had RSD been described to you by people in the community?

So, other, um, friends and colleagues who, um, are diagnosed ADHD and either aren't autistic or don't quite yet have that diagnosis, she says, winking and nudging. Um, uh, the way they've described it is, you know, that kind of sense.

Of what's the point of of even putting that job application in or that promotion in, what's the point? Um, or I couldn't bear it if it was a no. So, I'll just stay stagnant where I am because it feels safer. Um, or I won't, you know, on the negative side.

But then also on the plus side with with that kind of rejection, I and I've I've obviously struggled with that myself. The way that I I I'm going to lie if I say that I've sorted it. I haven't. Um, because what I'll do is go, "I'm going to apply for everything and I don't care if I get rejected." Um, "I'm just going to, you know, the 10% rule. If you apply for 100 things, you'll get 10. If you apply for a thousand, you'll get 100." You know, all of that kind of and I and I that's the kind of lie that my ego does. But actually, my inner child, um, is, "I'm going to apply for it and then I'm going to self-sabotage it by by applying for something else and going for that." So then I wouldn't have the time even if they did. So I haven't got over it. I've just learned to go to the next level of, um, I, you know, feel the fear and do it anyway and then self-sabotage it so it doesn't happen. Um, and I if I apply for roles and I know it's a big jump, I know I can do it, and that's not out of, um, arrogance. It's out of, I've done this work before, but not under this label. I know I can do it. And I'll send my covering letter to some really trusted colleagues of mine that already at that level and I'll say, "What do you think?" And they were like, "You've just literally spoken badly about yourself for the first three things." And I was like, "Oh, that's because I just wanted to be honest." And they're like, "No, you're not honest in a in a job interview. You don't have to be that honest." I'm like, "Oh, okay."

Um, or I've been in interviews where it's been down to the last two and and somebody asked it was about safeguarding and, uh, I really wanted this job. Anyway, the panel said to me, you know, "There's you and there's the person in the waiting room. Why why should we pick you?" And I said, "Well, I just care about this role so much. I want the best person for the job. If I'm not the best person, then please bring the other person in to to do to have this job." And they did. But I was just being honest, you know, but also I was being honest, but I was also self-sabotaging because I couldn't fight for myself. That's where I need to kind of bring in my, uh, my my trusted tribe. I can't really call them guide dogs. That would be probably not the good thing. But that's kind of, you know, to come in and go, "She's not going to say anything nice about herself, so we're going to do it." Um, I I don't think that will ever change.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that a representation of the push and pull and the many internal contradictions that can come with having an ADHD mind? I suppose on one hand, you've got like the impulsivity of the ADHD and the, "Oh, that person perhaps said I couldn't do something, so I'm going to now make it my entire personality to prove them wrong," and you you go for it. You you you in the moment apply for that job. But then the other part of your brain takes over after some time has passed, and you get very anxious and perhaps, as you said, you self-sabotage. Is that an example of that push and pull that can come with having the complexities of an ADHD mind?

Um, absolutely. I'm so glad you mentioned the push and pull. Uh, I often describe it as having to wake up and deciding if I'm going to be autistic or hyperactive today because my my routine hates my hyperactive side, and my hyperactive side hates my routine. So, I just have to be quite transferable in in those. And and that push and pull as well. Think about vulnerability in relationships. Yeah. So, a lot of, uh, um, toxic relationships start with that that push and pull, push and pull, push and pull to get you addicted. If your brain is like that every day, that's just normal. Yeah. You're just like, "Ah, this relationship understands my brain. I've got to come out of this with no hair, completely traumatized and in tears." But actually, dopamine's kicking. So, I'm really glad you mentioned the push and pull because that was on my my notes of things to say. And now I've forgotten the question.

>> Yeah. I mean,

>> Hyperactivity's taken over, Alex. The mask is wearing off.

>> I think you answered it perfectly. I think it it was a brilliant example. I think I was I was going to ask you what what problems that push and pull could create, but I think you've set the stage perfectly with with with the relationship example. And have you do you know anyone who's had that, >> who might be undiagnosed or not aware that they are ADHD or perhaps just ADHD or autistic and like those push and pulls have caused such a crisis that actually it's been that point of crisis that's led them to seek an assessment for being neurodivergent?

>> Yes. Yes, I have, um, uh, I have seen that, um, and I've seen that end in somebody going for support to the doctors where it's evidently this double neurotype push and pull for them to come out with some extremely powerful anti-depressants. Um, and it's like, "No, no, what what the sadness and the confusion that this person having is because this push and pull needs some support." This is it's almost like having a flower. They're only seeing the petals. They're not seeing the root cause. And and that's very, very tricky. Um, particularly by waiting lists as well, and and people to be in that absolute crisis before that being recognized either by them or by people that are are trying to take care of them.

>> Um, yeah, really, it's really, really sad. Absolutely. 85% of the viewers and listeners of this podcast, Carly, are are women, and many have been let down and feel really angry at the fact that they were missed for so long. Why do you think women have been let down and missed for so long in this conversation?

>> Um, great question. It's very much that kind of male, I mean, psychology as a whole has been very male-centric for millennia. I don't know when psychology started. Whenever it started, it's it's been quite male-centric. I think also as women, you know, we go to, you know, if I went into the GP and I've got a broken leg, they'd be like, "Okay, and when was your last period?" I don't know why periods are like the the epicenter of all our ailments, um, which which is always quite entertaining. Or or, you know, if you're, um, a slightly bigger woman, you go into the hot spot of a broken arm, "Have you considered losing weight?" "No, I've just got a broken arm." And I don't know why. I don't I don't think that generally happens to, um. So, for for women, it's always probably an us problem, I think, just medically.

>> Um, so definitely. And and also that gender societal gender roles, you know, if you've got, um, if you've got a neurodivergent girl that comes home from school, runs upstairs and reads, gets into bed and reads Matilda, you'll be like, "Oh, how studious." If a boy was going, "Right, mask upstairs, reading my book, and all his friends are outside playing football," like, "Come on, you know?" So, it's kind of those expectations. And I think also, um, for women and girls, the the expectation to be the fixer, the expectation to keep the peace, the expectation to, um, the expect there's different expectations growing up, I I believe, uh, for, uh, a sister as opposed to a. And and a lot of that can also, I think, lead us to our neurodivergencies looking different. Yeah, I think there's a lot of things. And also the the diagnostic tools being completely skewed towards, um, younger males, and not necessarily or, um, for women. And I think neurodivergent people, we're all fixers, actually. Some of us, uh, regardless of gender. Some of us, um, might be technicians, some of us might be engineers, um, some of us are psychologists, some of us are are nurses or, um, or volunteers. So, sometimes people are fixing things literally, and some people are fixing the social fabric of the world. Saw this great thing again online. I must get a life. Um, and it said, uh, and it's really kind of stereotypical, and I actually really like trains because I work for Department of Transport, but, um, it's it was like, "What do autistic men want?" And it said, "Trains." "What do autistic women want?" "Complete judicial and police reform." And I was like, "Yeah, nailed the head for both of those."

How big of a difference do you think having a a diagnosis or just an awareness makes to somebody's journey? Because I've spoken to many neurodivergent people and pre-diagnosis, they struggled with addiction, bad relationships, and post-diagnosis, they had an awareness and then they were able to start making changes and mitigate some of the challenges, and life got considerably better. How severe can that pre-diagnosis car crash >> compared to the post-diagnosis clarity? How extreme can those two get?

>> I I believe it can be black and white, day and night.

>> But then I would say that as a black and white thinker, right? But, um, but oh, all this insight, this is it. You get the insight to go, "Okay, well, I would think like that because that's my neurotype." And I I think it's it's so, so important because you can you can ask for support, you can ask for help. You actually know what you're dealing with. You've got a word for it, whatever that word or words may be. Um, very, very important. But it's really also important that self-awareness, self-identification, I believe, is a human right that people get their diagnosis. But let's just say diagnosis didn't exist, right? Hopefully, that will never happen, but let's just say they don't. Um, you're still protected by law. So, the Equality Act 2010 is needsled, not diagnosis. You don't legally need a diagnosis or to show your diagnosis, which is quite good because mine's about the size of Yellow Pages, I think. Um, to to someone to get those reasonable adjustments at work, those reasonable adjustments in education. So, from a very logical, this is my autism side, my very logical part of my brain, don't feel that it's going to be a magic wand and don't wait for that support. Don't wait to ask for those reasonable adjustments. My, uh, other side of my brain would say, you you need to know because then you can kind of put for yourself. And that emotional, that emotional side, you need to know. And that's why I think it's it can completely change. And say, I when I was diagnosed, I sent a, uh, bunch of flowers to my doctor and said, "Thank you for the first day of the rest of my life." And it was absolutely was. There's still been vulnerabilities and and and horrible experiences past post-diagnosis, but, you know, what? It didn't go on for years. It was, "I'm out. This is done." Um, I learned boundaries. I learned why you I learned everything because I knew. And, um, and was very, very lucky to have a great doctor. So, it's it saves lives. Yeah.

>> Have you got any advice, Carly, for for somebody watching or listening who is going through that moment of clarity now? Perhaps they've known for some time that they are ADHD and then they're going through that new journey now of realizing actually autism is there too. Any emotional advice for somebody dealing with that transition?

>> I think it depends on the age as well. I hear from a lot of teenagers, really sadly, that, you know, um, autism's become like this derogatory term in the playground, and they're quite happy to talk about their ADHD amongst their peers, but they're not going to tell them that they're autistic as well because that's kind of seen as weird, whereas ADHD, um, in in the playground is is not seen as weird and sometimes a bit cool, you know, and not to say it's trendy. M it's very debilitating a lot. But so I think if either they've got that and they don't feel that they can talk about that, or they don't know that they're autistic as well yet, um, just be really, really kind to yourself. Um, and with their maybe one day we'll know, but is it kind of 70% overlap between autism and ADHD? Something like huge, isn't it?

>> You're not going to be the only one of your ADHD friends that finds out a couple of years later you're autistic. In fact, perhaps maybe 70% of them. You're not going to be alone in that. And, um, and I I still get, I think I'm quite good at, uh, spotting a fellow autistic or ADHD. Uh, actually, I always get it the other way around.

>> So either I'm really good at it and they don't know yet, or I'm really bad at it and I just get it the other way around because I'm like, "Oh, you're autistic." Right? No, I'm ADHD. Okay.

>> What do you think some of the biggest tells are if if if someone's speaking to you and they you think you or ADHD?

>> Oh, okay. I can't say body language because I'm really bad at reading that. Um, normally, if we start a conversation and we're both at the same time having a having a moving conversation, but we're both at some points bringing our special interest back into that conversation, I'm like, "There's some autism, isn't there?" And I actually really enjoy that because I love I love being around other autistic people with special interests because, um, I'm like, "I've just learned loads." And I like in friendships or working relationships to either be the student or the teacher. Otherwise, we're just breathing the same air. How dull. I'd much rather be going, "Right, tell me everything about this thing that you're really into." "Oh my gosh, that's so cool." Or similarly, have someone that's going, "Tell me everything about this." And I love that, you know. I love that that learning. It's exciting. It feels like it's got purpose. Um, sometimes, uh, kind of like a lot of stemming going on. Sometimes people that hold pens. I'm joking, Alex.

>> Ding, ding, ding, ding. Diet Coke is another one. I shouldn't say a brand name.

>> Fizzy cola. If I tell people, if I just say Coke, it's going to be a really bad edit, right? Oh, yeah. Coke. Um, there's It's like really weird things. There's nothing that would be scientifically measurable. Um, it's just it's really, really odd things. And if it's in women, although I actually don't have this special interest, although I do work in it as well, there's too many jobs. Um, the minute someone says horses to me, I'm going, "Here we go. Everything's matching. It's horses. Horses." I think for younger girls could be like the top of the diagnostic, >> of the diagnostic list. "Do you like horses?" "Yep." "Okay. Right. Hold on." Um, those sort of things. There's so many, but they're like really weird, obscure things. I've noticed, and I'm not a, obviously, a professional assessor, but having observed many people that do have ADHD, it seems to be like in the absence of alcohol. And I think that's important. In the absence of alcohol, when I meet someone for the first time, >> the the version of them that I see straight away, like the handshake, the good posture, the almost like perfect annunciation, about an hour later, they're almost like non-verbal.

>> They It's the polar opposite. Yeah.

>> In terms of the energy. And it's you can't say it, but it's it's quite sad because you can see how much of a disconnect there is between probably what's going on inside and and the the version that they feel they need to present as a first impression. And who they really are is probably somewhere in the middle. But because they've gone full steam with the handshake, the good annunciation, the good posture, they've worn themselves out so quickly.

>> And in about an hour, they're you. And also, you can tell they're anxious because they're suddenly super aware of the the contradiction within like how they present now compared to how they presented an hour ago. And they don't know how to get out of the situation. They don't know how to leave without coming across as rude.

>> And no one's yelling cut. Yes.

>> Right. It's like someone yell cut, I'm done now. Yeah. Gosh, it's fascinating. Do you have any life hacks, Carly? Um, for somebody who perhaps is ADHD that would enable them to live with both of these conditions harmoniously because we know there's a lot of push and pull, a lot of contrasting traits sometimes that can create challenges, but do you have any hacks that could bring them together harmoniously?

>> Yeah. Um, well, I'm still kind of becoming aware of my own. Obviously, I'm aware that I've got hyperactive traits, but becoming aware that I'm probably both. Um, and maybe that's just because I'm like just so rigid. I'm like, "No, my loyalty. I'm like, is it being an autistic toan? Super loyal, super rigid. I'm autistic and that's where I'll be." Um, so, uh, I've obviously got ADHD traits. Um, with that though, I I kind of find if I know I'm having a super busy day, um, out of the house, here, there, and everywhere, I try to go, "Oh, that was a really great, uh, hyperactive day." Um, so maybe I need to book in a a really autism-friendly day. Um, and kind of pace it like that. Know obviously I I'm not going to know who's going to have the uh who's going to have the the controls up there at any point, and that could change even midday as to how that looks. So, um, but trying to make sure that I don't sign up for something which whilst I'm in that frame of mind. And so what I try to do with that, so let's say I was going to go, "Right, I'm going to get this job and I have to be up at 4:00 every day, um, and and I'm not going to get home till really, really late, and I'm going to sign up on a three-year contract to do that every day, five days a week." If I was doing that whilst I was in like being super hyperactive, >> I'd be like, "Dream job." >> And then little autism comes knocking on the door going, "Woohoo!"

>> Yeah.

>> "What about our cozy days in bed with the cat?" Yes.

>> You never agree to something when you're in a good mood.

>> Yeah. So, I think Yeah, exactly. They say never sign a thing if you're if you're angry or or sad or happy, don't they? So, um, I will if I get an invite to something, um, I tend to go, um, "I'm going to check and I never used to do this, but I've learned through bitter experience. I'm going to check my diary and I'm going to get back to you within two days." I am checking my diary and I'm going to get back to you in two days, but actually what I'm doing >> is a looking at not just the diary, have I got something in there, but how's what's that week, two weeks going to look like back to back? Um, but I'm also kind of processing with myself, is this what I want to do, or am I saying yes? Is this what I want to do? But I'm worried about, I'm so, so hyper-aware of that sense of rejection that I don't want to reject someone. So, I'm just going to say yes to it. And I just need that time to process all literally pros and cons list, you know, and I have I'll hide my phone over there. A pros and cons list, you know, literally have those as to these are the reasons why I should, these are the reasons why I shouldn't, and then see what outweighs it and just give yourself don't reply straight away to anything.

>> Yes. Such good advice. Putting that pause between someone asking you to do something and you replying to it is so important because I feel like obviously the people-pleasing element plus the fact that how we feel about ourselves and the energy we have fluctuates from day to day. Also, like all the masking that we've done, we often don't have a good understanding of self. So it almost feels under those circumstances and in the pot of all of those ingredients impossible for me to accurately say yes to a demand of my time in the moment because I don't know how I'm going to be feeling in a week's time. And chances are in the next seven days, I'll probably realize that actually I don't want to go to that party or I don't want to do that work assignment. And it's a lot easier, right, to change a a no to a yes than it is to change a yes to a no.

>> You know what? I've never even thought of that. That's brilliant. You're so right. Because then hopefully people are pleasantly surprised. Actually, I can make it.

>> That's that's really good. I'm going to use that now.

>> I'm not going to say no to everything. And then go, "Actually, it's a yes." But I think that's it. It is easier to turn a no to a yes than a yes to a no. Or at least it feels easier for us, maybe.

>> I wouldn't have even thought of that. That's really good.

>> I want to move on to the most popular part of the show, Carly, which is audience questions, which is always unpredictable.

>> I'm loving the washing machine. I used to have one of those for my dolls when I was little.

>> That size?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Yeah. I mean, this is this. And so your dolls must have been bigger or the same size as the machine?

>> No, that was just this that was just the size of the. No. Oh, yes. So, no, the idea was that you put the dolly's clothes in it.

>> I see. I see what you mean. Yeah. So, it was just one I used to have one in my room. Can you put water in it? I suppose you don't want to if there's questions.

>> Well, when I bought this, it did say on the item description that it is usable as an actual real mini washing machine, but I don't believe them because it's got loads of holes in it.

>> Like a. It's got great drainage.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's a washing machine. The regular viewers will know that the audience questions go in the washing machine, and they are the audience's woes, and it's called the washing machine of woes for that reason. Um, also because it represents memory loss for me because I always forget to empty the washing machine after the cycle has finished, >> and then have to run it again.

>> Yes. Yeah. Which the ADHD tax. Do do you do did do you suffer with this ailment?

>> I my biggest problem. So my long-term memory is really cool. Um, so I and this isn't a fear, this is this is the good honest truth. I can remember my earliest memory is 18 months of age and and I can remember like Live Aid. Um, not just things I've seen on TV. Recommend what we ate and where I sat at the table, and that there was potatoes in the curry, and I don't like potatoes in the curry, like on the side. Anyway, so my short-term memory, absolutely shocking. So pizzas, there is no point me ever cooking a pizza because I put it in and then the smoke alarm's going off. So that food is the biggest one for me and cooking, unless I'm literally watching it. I mean, I've had jacket potatoes burn into flames because I'm just like, "Oh yeah, uh, forgot about that." Um, so I I food is the biggest one, and I hate wasting food as well. So, um, that's the biggest one for me, or like having a phone contract that I was paying £60 a month for. U, but I had to make a phone call, which I don't like. Um, and then I kept forgetting to make this phone call to get it down to £17 a month. So, I just did that for like 5 years. I wasted so much money because I kept forgetting and then not want. So, the ADHD is like, "I've forgotten." The autism's like, "I don't do phone calls." Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, I just overpaid by thousands for years.

>> Gosh.

>> Fun times.

>> Yeah. The ADHD tax, the ADHD tax is it's the cost that we pay for the extra that it's the financial penalties for being who we are.

>> Yeah. Sucks.

>> Yeah.

>> Maybe they should have just let us off.

>> Yeah. I get chopped vegetables now, though, to be fair. Uh, frozen chopped vegetables is is, um, yeah, it's such a game changer for me because I remember I would just, I you know, I go on a health kick, decide to eat fresh, buy the cabbage, buy the broccoli, and then it just goes moldy in my fridge, whereas I just buy pre-chopped ones in the freezer. I eat them when I want, and they don't go off, so I don't need to buy new ones. I'm gonna start doing that because I think I've got like three lettuces at the minute for my Caesar salad. Gonna have Caesar salad tomorrow night and then go, "Oh, I didn't have that Caesar salad." And now I've got like a, >> not as fresh. I need a rabbit. I think maybe I need a rabbit.

>> I should say I have been using the Teemo app, which does help me remember to empty my washing machine.

>> Oh, I haven't heard that.

>> Work in progress.

>> I have to, uh,

>> They're the sponsor of the show. They're really, really, really, really good.

>> I will, uh, I will have a go at that. I like a good app. What I did, Kari, was the last Aud episode I did, I looked at the top questions in the comment sections and the three questions with the most likes >> from the audience. The first question, "My RSD is absolutely awful and sometimes it's made me do the unthinkable. How can I combat this?"

>> Oh, gosh. Um, I I think it's one of those things when when we're trying to combat something, we then really, really focus on it and focus on it more, which can make it even trickier. And I think maybe if if you know that that's your your biggest struggle is is that rejection sensitivity, perhaps own it and perhaps try the, um, the 10% rule, which which is to go, "Okay, well, I'm going to apply for, you know, if you apply for 10 things, you're going to get one yes. If you apply for 100, you're going to get 10 yeses." That sort of thing. I'm rubbish at math, so I'm not going to go any higher than that, even though it's a round number. And because if you kind of go, "Okay, well, rather than really, really overthinking on this one thing that I might get rejected for, I'm going to hedge my bets a bit and and actually plan for rejection and then be pleasantly surprised." And a great So, I used to do some acting when I was younger. I was rubbish at it. Um, but, uh, the one of the things that was also taught was, um, for for every no leads you to the yes.

>> So, um, you know, and and if you if you quit, you'll never get your yes, type thing. It's quite pyramidy schemy actually, isn't it? In the entertainment world, keep going. Keep going. Next one's a yes. Next one. Yes. It's not been a 40 years, you know. So, um, but but kind of just accepting that it's going to happen. And, uh, it but it the rejection is going to lead you to it. Redirect what's it? Reje redirection, not rejection.

>> Rejection is a redirection towards what you really should be doing.

>> Yeah. And also, it's a bit like, I love that film Sliding Doors.

>> Yes.

>> You know, sometimes Yeah. And I think rejection sometimes can be a blessing, blessing that we never save us from something we didn't know we need were going to need saving from as well. So sometimes to to learn to love it.

>> I like to name my RSD. I call it Dave the Dragon because I feel like RSD is very real. Obviously, the pain is very true, but it's also not based in reality. I'm not I'm not actually upset by what you've said today. I'm upset because what you've said has reminded me of all of those 20,000 horrible comments. So, it's very real, but it's not based in reality. And I feel like if I name it a dragon, you know, I can see a picture of a dragon, but I also know dragons aren't real. And when you sort of name it, you can disarm it and take away a lot of its power.

>> I love that because, you know, it's mythical.

>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Next, Carly, the second most asked question. "All DHD has been hell for me. How can I get these conditions to be my friend, not my enemy?"

>> I think it's a bit like the discussion about masking and apply that to whichever part of, um, of being autistic and and and ADHD, which which is the biggest challenge for you. And obviously, there's a, there's great abilities and great challenges, isn't there with kind of mixed neurotypes. Um, so a bit like how we said the masking is, I I'm never going to be able to get rid of it. So I'm going to have to make it my ally. Uh, and if it can't be your friend, at least it could be an ally, you know. Um, and and put it to work. And and trying to perhaps reframe that into, "This is part of who I am. How can I make it work for me rather than being a host? Make it an employee."

>> Yes.

>> Right. Come on. What are you going to do? We've got we're in this for life. So, uh, start if you're in my head rent-free, start paying the rent, dude. You know, um, and and whatever that's going to be different for whoever wrote it, but their biggest challenge going, "Okay, how am I going to make it work for me?"

>> Brilliant advice. Thank you so much, Carly. And finally, the most sought-after question. "I'm undiagnosed, but I know I'm ADHD. However, assessments are a nightmare. What can I do in the interim to stop my mind worrying out of control?"

>> Okay. So, I understand that worrying out of control feeling because it's almost as if the the waiting list weeds out the the ones that aren't anyway, you know. Um, because it's, uh, is that frustration. I mean, maybe maybe when you're waiting and you know, like if you're ringing up or sending in an email, right, who sends in the most emails not to get them, just you don't need to come in, we just know because you're really hyperfocusing on it. Um, I think knowing that the the diagnosis isn't unfortunately going to be a magic wand. If you're looking for medication, or if you're in need of medication, then obviously absolutely. But if you're not, then, um, you know, ask for those reasonable adjustments that you need now. Don't feel that you have to wait. Don't feel that you have to prove it. And I think that's really interesting in that that kind of waiting, what we call in the NHS waiting well period, is if you've got rejection sensitivity and then you go in to an assessment that you've waited for and you're then not diagnosed, even if you are, because it might be clinical inexperience, or it might be that the bar's too high for that particular area, or all sorts of different things, or it might be somebody that isn't understand the expression in women, for example. I mean, it's just going to be, you know, a punch in the stomach, isn't it? You know, to to say the least. It's going to be horrendous.

>> Um, so try and don't worry about the rejection of asking for help now or asking for reasonable adjustments now. And don't feel that you have to prove it. The only person really that should ever see your diagnostic report is you and your doctor. Um, and and that's it. Um, we don't need to prove it. I mean, education system, uh, in employment sectors, and obviously if people are in receipt of benefit as well, are led to believe that I have to show everyone this report to prove it. And there's part of you that wants to prove it, but you absolutely don't have to prove it. Um, but you are worthy, um, in in anything that you need to make life easier for you as a reasonable adjustment in education, employment, etc., and in a in a personal capacity. Um, but, you know, just go, "Well, I'm on the pathway to this diagnosis." Or you don't even have to tell them about that. Or just simply say, "This is what I need for this to work for me, and this is where my boundaries are, and this is where where I I might need some support." So, just own it already.

>> Fantastic. Life-changing advice, really, Carly. Thank you ever so much.

>> Thank you.

>> Just finally, every guest writes a letter to their younger self.

>> Oh, wow.

>> And what then happens is I deliver the past guest letter to the current guest, which is yourself. So I'm going to deliver to you a letter.

>> This is beautiful.

>> I'm going to deliver to you a letter which the previous guest. It's green. Oh, yeah. On brand.

>> Are they all green?

>> They're all green. Yes.

>> There was me thinking I was just really lucky.

>> I thought it was red.

>> Oh, I forgot. Sorry.

>> I'm joking.

>> Oh, this is so cool. Um, so the previous guest wrote, "To my younger self, remember that the most difficult challenges will lead you to great go great growth. Put one foot in front of the other and trust in the process." That's gorgeous.

>> Very nice. Very nice.

>> I'm loving the cards, Alex.

>> Thank you. That's where the budget goes.

>> That is absolutely. And what a lovely reminder as well. Yeah.

>> Absolutely. Thank you, Carly. On behalf of everyone grappling to understand their brains. Thank you ever so much.

>> Thank you for having me and thank you for making this show. And, um, how many thousand views is it now? 100,000 or was that last year? Did you say?

>> Subscribers? Subscribers?

>> On YouTube. I think it's like nearly 300,000 now.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. It's it's really quite overwhelming. We get like 450,000 downloads a month, and on YouTube, it's about the same. So nearly a million people every single month. I didn't tell you that at the beginning. No.

>> I try and forget about that when we're in this nice little quiet room.

>> Gosh, that's that's incredible. It's amazing work and helping so many people. Um, and and and me as well. Now do the ponder of the, uh, duality of neurodivergence. Try not to be as black and white.

>> Amazing. Karly, thank you so much.

>> Thanks, Alex.