E251: What’s Your Desire Type? NEW Framework for Understanding What You and Your Partner Really Want

Inevitably, anytime Xander and I are talking to a couple who's struggling in any way with their sex life, there is one partner who's brain first, one partner whose body first. There's one partner who wants emotional connection first, there's one partner who wants physical connection first. And yeah, I can just feel like this absolute gridlock.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa.

>> And Xander Marin.

>> I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

>> And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

>> Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

I am so excited about today's episode because we are going to be sharing a brand new model for understanding desire. We get asked about desire all the time. I... It's absolutely one of like the top three concerns that couples have in long-term relationships.

>> It might be the number one concern that we have.

>> And it's a tricky one because most people try to ask really simple questions: "Oh, how do I increase my desire?" And the unfortunate answer is there's no good individual tip. This is a complex system, really.

>> Yeah. Well, also, I think a lot of times people want the question that we usually get asked is like, "What's the best supplement for increasing my libido, or what's the best pill that I can take?" And, you know, we always say we totally understand the desire for a magic pill. I mean, I have so many...

>> ...the desire for desire.

>> The desire for desire! I have so many things in my life that I would love to have a magic pill for, that I just take it and it solves that problem. But unfortunately, life doesn't work that way, and especially not with something as complex as desire. And I think what you're also saying, too, is that there isn't a universal thing that will work for everybody. Like, if both you and I are struggling with low desire, the thing that might help me might not help you, or vice versa.

>> Yeah. So, by the end of this episode, we can definitely talk about certain things that may work better for certain types of people because you'll have a much better understanding of what desire type you are after this. There turns out, we've come up with four desire types that really run the gamut of all the different ways that our desire can work. And so, once we understand who we are, once we understand who our partner is, all of a sudden that really opens the doors to like, "Ah, okay, now I can actually find some things that really might work for me." 'Cause the crazy thing is that whatever the thing is that you'll find that works for you probably won't work for like 75% of other people. It might actually do the opposite for them. So, it's so important to understand really who you are and how you tick.

>> Yeah, yeah. So, at the end of this episode, you're going to walk away knowing your type, probably having a pretty good guess at your partner's type. You'll have a framework for communicating with your partner about differences in your desire types and what you each need, and some really practical tools for increasing your desire. I feel like we pulled people recently—not recently, but like a couple months ago—asking, "Do you wish you could increase your desire?" And I can't remember the exact number, but I feel like it was like in the 70s, like 77% of people said they wish they had higher desire. So,

>> Well, the episode's for the 70%.

>> If you're one of that—maybe that percentage, 'cuz I can't remember the exact number, but I know it was very high—you're going to have some practical tools for what to do to increase your desire. And I also hope that you walk away from this episode with the relief of knowing there's nothing wrong with you. You are not broken in any way. It's just that we don't get taught about this kind of stuff, and we literally made up this model, so there was no way you could learn it otherwise. So,

>> We didn't make it up. "Make it up" sounds like we just...

>> ...pulled it out of thin air. We developed this...

>> ...based on other research. But actually, I have to give you credit, 'cuz Xander was the original one who had this idea. We'll tell you more about it in a second. But yeah, my point that I want to make is I hope that you walk away from this knowing you're normal. Nothing is wrong with you. It's just that you didn't have the information that you needed beforehand. It's so easy for us—and I will say, especially women—it's so easy for us to so quickly go to the place of thinking something's wrong with me, to beat ourselves up, to, you know, feel really frustrated with ourselves. And I really want people to understand, like, absolutely nothing is wrong with you. And I know this information is going to be game-changing for you.

Okay, so let's get into the model. So, there have been two different ways that we have been talking about desire in our business for the last few years.

>> Yeah. If you've been following closely, you've probably heard us talk about both of these things. The magic, though, is that you haven't heard us talk about them overlaid.

>> Exactly. Okay. So, your desire type depends on two factors: how you want it and when you want it. We're going to go over each of these separately, and then we're going to tell you about the overlay.

So, first, let's talk about how you want it. So, we did not develop this. This is based on research by Dr. Rosemary Bassin, who came up with this in around 2000, and she called it the spontaneous and responsive desire model. So, basically, what she talked about is that there are two different ways that we experience desire, or two different places that we experience desire. We can feel it in our brains. So, that's mental desire. The idea of sex just pops into your head randomly. It sounds good. You're interested in it.

>> It's kind of like classic horniness.

>> Yeah. And then we can also feel desire in our bodies. Our bodies get turned on. They get ready for sex. So, this is physiological changes, like...

>> ...arousal.

>> Yeah. Getting hard, getting wet, heart rate increasing, breath rate increasing, all that kind of stuff. So, her model based created these two types based on where we feel that desire first. So, first up, we have spontaneous desire, which is when you feel mental desire first, then the physical arousal follows. So, spontaneous desire is how you always see desire portrayed on TV and in the movies. It's like the characters just kind of going throughout their day. All of a sudden, they're turned on. They go find their partner. They want to have sex. And so, most of us, because that's the way we've seen it, and also in relationships, in the early stage of relationships, desire often feels very spontaneous to us. Like, it feels like, "Oh my God, I was so into him. I just, you know, he just needed to look at me in the right way, and I was like, woo, I'm thinking about it." Right?

>> Yeah. We can be really tricked into thinking that we have spontaneous desire, or we have a lot of it early on in a relationship, and then poof, like magically it disappears, and we're confused about where it went. Yes, very good point. Okay, so most of us think that is how desire is supposed to work. We think we're supposed to be spontaneous, and we don't even know that this second type exists. But it does, and it's called responsive desire. So, it is the exact opposite of spontaneous desire. We feel arousal in our bodies first, and then afterwards our brain catches up and starts thinking, "Huh, that sound that's sounds good. This is fun." So, one of the classic ways of knowing that you might have responsive desire is if you've ever caught yourself in the middle of sex, or even at the end of sex, thinking, "This is really fun. Why do I never seem to want this?" So, it's not low desire, it's not no desire, it's responsive desire. Your body needs something to respond to. You need to be feeling good in your body before you get that mental desire. So, research shows that most women have primarily responsive desire, and most men have primarily spontaneous desire.

>> Though there are lots of exceptions to that.

>> Yeah, I actually have more spontaneous desire, and in the past—we'll get to this a little bit more—but Xander has identified more as a responsive desire.

>> I thought I had responsive desire, really, until we started developing this model, and I'm very excited to tell you about what that's changed for us.

>> Yes. The other point I want to make about this is these models are not meant to box us in. Like, people can experience more of one type of desire over different parts of their lives. You can be primarily responsive, but sometimes you feel spontaneous, or the other way around. So, it's not this like rigid model. Yeah, I do think that the the challenge with just looking at that model in isolation—which we really, that's really what we've done up until now—is that it can really feel like two members in a couple are at complete odds with each other. And the the gulf is kind of impossible to bridge. And I think that that ends up making this not that helpful. It's like, it's helpful in that it's like, "Oh, it helps you realize, oh my God, I don't have low desire. I just have a different type of desire," or, "Like, I need to be approached in a different way." The problem, though, is that then you start talking about it in a couple, and, you know, one partner is like, "Yeah, but like, this—the spontaneity element is so important to me. Like, it doesn't feel like I can—like, I don't feel like I will be fulfilled if we always schedule it, or we always plan for it, or we always do like 20 minutes of massage first." Um, where, you know, and then the other partner is like, "Well, like, hey, like, if you can't like read the room about when you're initiating, like, I'm not going to be in the mood." And so, it can almost end up like it can be really helpful momentarily, and then it can feel like, "Oh my God, we're just at a deadlock, and like, are we just completely incompatible?" And so, I think that we kind of do ourselves a bit of a disservice by only focusing on that model. So, the important thing is once we get into these four types that we have developed, you'll see how it starts to get a little easier to understand how we can start making smaller shifts towards each other, rather than feeling like there's just this big gulf that we need to cross, or that like we need to make a compromise that's going to result in neither party feeling fulfilled. So, yeah, we have kind of reconceptualized this, um, you know, in terms of thinking, you know, rather than—we're not going to call it spontaneous and responsive in this model. We're thinking about it as, "How does desire show up for you? Does it show up in your brain first, aka spontaneous, or does it show up in your body first, aka responsive?" So, think brain first or body first.

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Okay, now let's get into the second model of looking at desire that we've been talking about in our business for years and years and years. And that's the interplay between emotional connection and physical connection. And very broadly speaking, there are two types of people. There are people who want to feel emotionally connected before having sex. And there are people who want to have sex as a way to open up emotional connection. So, it's like, which which thing do you want first? What feels most natural to you? "I want to connect with you first, and then I feel so open and vulnerable, and hell, vulnerable, you know, intimate with you before I can be physically intimate with you." And, just like what Xander was saying with the responsive and spontaneous, it's so easy for couples to feel at a standstill about this. Inevitably, anytime Xander and I are talking to a couple who's struggling in any way with their sex life, there is one partner who's brain first, one partner whose body first. There's one partner who wants emotional connection first, there's one partner who wants physical connection first. And yeah, it can just feel like this absolute gridlock. I mean, the the classic conversation between the, you know, emotional versus the physical, it's like, "Well, I there's no way I'm going to have sex with you if we're feeling so disconnected." And then the other partner's like, "Yeah, we're disconnected. That's why I want to have sex with you, 'cuz that opens up the connection for me."

>> Yeah. So, this one really comes down to when you want it—when you want sex. Like, do you want physical intimacy first? Is that like the primary thing that you want to feel broader connection, or do you want physical intimacy once you've had enough emotional connection to feel open to it? So, it's sort of like, is it do you want sex first, or do you want sex second?

>> And this has actually, in our relationship, been something that, in the maybe in the last five years, we've become more familiar with our own dynamics. And this has really helped us...

>> ...kind of get past some gridlock that we had had in the past, where...

>> ...we really started to realize we looked at it in really different ways. Vanessa is a physical intimacy first...

>> ...which is the opposite of the traditional gender breakdowns. Like, we do find that the vast majority of women want to feel emotional connection first, and we're talking, of course, heteronormatively here with male-female relationships.

>> But the vast majority of women want to feel emotional intimacy first. The vast majority of men want physical intimacy first. But we are slightly different in that in our relationship.

>> Yeah, 'cuz I am definitely an emotional connection first type, and that can be a confusing experience as a man because you see all of this talk and portrayals on TV and movies and books of men as like just wanting sex at all costs, or like wanting to do it first. "Oh, this is how I open up. This is how I feel comfortable with someone." And so, you know, for me, it was easy to operate in that, to think that that's how I'm supposed to operate. But I kept finding, you know, if when I look back through my sexual history, I keep finding myself in these situations where I kind of push myself into hookups or, you know, into like physical scenarios with people, and then I end up not coming away not feeling very good about what happened, or feeling very good about myself. And then I compare that with times that I have been in relationships with people and having regular sex with those people, and I'm like, "How is it that I feel so good and so connected and so positive about all my sexual experiences in this context, and not good about my sexual experiences in this other context?" Whereas, you know, I talk to friends who are like, "Oh yeah, know I had like such an amazing hookup with this person," or, "You know, oh, we kind of like had a fling for a couple weeks, and it was super fun." Like, "I'm so happy that I did that." And I'm like, "Oh yeah, like, am I just—is there just something wrong with me that like I feel like I'm supposed to be doing this, and all my friends are celebrating me for doing this, but I don't feel good about it?"

>> Mhm.

>> And like, yeah, how is it that I feel so much better? You know, it's just like that simple matter of like, "Oh, I'm like getting to know this person, and now we're in a relationship," and I'm like, "Oh yeah, no, like, I love having sex with you. I'm not having any performance challenges. I feel great about this." Sounds like, "Oh, well, that's because I want emotional connection first." And we found that in moments where Vanessa and I were in some kind of disagreement, or the vibes felt off, like Vanessa would be more inclined to say, "Hey, like, why don't we have sex? Like, we're going to feel so much better." And I would find myself resistant to that idea. And that would create even more disconnection, or even more kind of like headbutting, because I wasn't able to describe until relatively more recently why it was that I wasn't open to sex. So, it would feel to Vanessa, "Oh, he just doesn't want me. He doesn't want it. Something's wrong with him."

>> Mhm.

>> And I would feel like something's wrong with me, too, until I realized, "Oh, I don't feel safe until we've just had a little bit of time to reconnect emotionally." Mhm.

And that really opened things up, and we realized, "Oh, if it..." You know, I think for Vanessa, it was like, or, I mean, you could describe it. "How did it feel to you when you heard me conceptualize it as like a safety thing?"

>> Yeah, that totally changed my perspective. You know, it was so powerful for us to be able to finally put words to it and to realize, you know, we just didn't have the language to talk about it before. We didn't understand it. And then once it finally got crystallized, I was like, "Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense to me now." So, it was it was really game-changing. I mean, both of these these different models have been game-changing for us in their own ways. Just having an understanding of how our bodies work, how desire works, having an understanding of like what we're each looking for and needing from each other. It was so helpful. But, like I said, you know, these models are, you know, the first one 26 years old at this point. We started conceptualizing the like emotional versus physical, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago or something like that. We've been talking about it for a while. And we eventually got to the point where we were realizing, like, it just feels like there's something missing. Like, there's still there's some piece of the puzzle. There's some way that like we haven't quite nailed it down. And this guy over here was the first one to have the idea of, "What if we combine these two things?"

>> Yeah. "What if we layer one on top of the other," so to speak?

>> Mhm.

>> So, if you think about basically like a 2x2 grid, or like a graph where you have one of these on one axis and the other on the other axis—doesn't matter which axis you put it on, that's why I didn't say X-axis, Y-axis—you can think of a box, right? Like a 2x2 box. So, on one side you have brain first and body first, and on the other side of the box you have emotional connection first and physical connection first. Then that results in four possible combinations. So, yeah, I wish I could tell you a great, exciting story about how I came up with the idea to actually put these two things together. You know, I think we—you we we've talked a lot about, you know, the challenge of feeling like we don't really have a an overarching like model or personality type or archetype type thing to really categorize people into distinct groups. And I was just thinking, like, "God, like, is there really nothing that we have that that really can, you know, kind of get at the range of people's experiences when it comes to their sex drive?" And I was like, so, you know, I'm thinking, "Okay, well, you know, what what do we have currently?" Like, "Well, you know, we have the the brain first, the body first. We have the the physical first. We have the emotional first." And it was—and I guess I was just kind of like, "Wait, well, could we just put them together? Or like, what would the resulting combinations of those be?" And so, I just kind of like wrote it up like on a whiteboard, basically, of like, "Okay, so, you know, when we have this 2x2 box, you know, we have all the resulting combinations." And once I saw it up there and started thinking about, "Okay, so like, what would someone that thinks or that that experiences their sex drive and experiences sex in their relationship with each of these attributes? Like, what would they think? How would they approach different scenarios?" All of a sudden, I was like, "Oh, this actually is really helpful." Um, you know, it does it it gets at, you know, as we talk through them, you'll see it gets at there. Two of the resulting four types are the very stereotypical gender roles, basically. And then there's two types that are a little bit different, possibly a bit more rare, but still really important. And the coolest thing was that I realized, "Oh, [ __ ] I am one of these outlier types."

>> Mhm.

>> I am one of these outlier types. And it actually explains everything about my past experience with sex—before being with Vanessa, after being with Vanessa. And it totally opened my eyes to like, "Oh, [ __ ] like I have been not understanding myself until like this last year."

>> Yeah, in a way that really like gave me a lot of empathy for myself. I feel like it's been really healing, honestly. And so, we can talk about that when we get to talking about my specific type. So, I'll make you wait for that.

>> Okay. So, yeah, like Xander's saying, it's a grid with brain and body on one end, emotional versus physical on the other end. So, they combine. So, we've got like a brain-plus-emotional type, a body-plus-emotional type, brain-plus-physical type, and body-plus-physical type. Okay. So, I think that probably by listening to our descriptions, you you're probably starting to get a good sense of which categories you fall into, but we'll run you through a couple of quick little, uh, qualifiers to see like which one. Okay. Okay. You probably have a good sense for yourself, but listening to this, you'll probably start to get a good sense of of being confident in what your partner is.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, you might be a brain-first type if you think about sex randomly throughout the day. You often feel in the mood before any sort of physical touch happens. You're usually the one who initiates sex in your relationship, and you feel like you could get turned on in a lot of different situations. Yeah, this is this one was interesting because like I'd said I thought that I was a body-first sex drive type. And that was because long ago in our relationship, when we got into sort of a spell where we were not having as much sex as we used to, and I was finding myself turning down—you know, I was not initiating sex very often, and I was finding myself turning down Vanessa's initiations fairly often. And back then, all Vanessa knew about was the was that model of sex drive types. She didn't—there was no conception of the emotional first, physical first back then. There was definitely no conception of the combination of these two. And so, it was like, "Okay, well, obviously Vanessa is spontaneous. She's thinking about—she's, you know, she's spontaneous. She's brain first. She's thinking about sex regularly and then wanting to initiate it." And I must not be because I'm turning it down, right? But the thing that always bothered me was—and honestly made me feel horrible about myself when I was struggling like that—is that it wasn't that I never thought about sex. In fact, I thought about sex a lot, and I wanted sex a lot, but I would find myself in moments where initiation was happening. I would find myself not open to it, and I didn't know why. And so, later I would realize, "Oh, well, it's because I'm a emotional connection first type, and I need there to be a certain level of emotional connection." And back when we were having this struggle, I was really responsible for us not having a lot of emotional connection, 'cuz I was working my ass off. I was never home. We were disconnected. I was totally beat and, you know, physically exhausted, and disconnected is a, you know, a recipe if you're an emotional first for not feeling open to sex. And so, yeah, once I started realizing, "Oh yeah, like, I actually am a brain-first type because I do think about sex all the time." The thing is, it's that emotional connection piece that can be a blockage to me taking action.

>> Okay. So then let's go into, you might be a body-first type if you rarely think about sex unless something physical is already happening. Like I said earlier, like during or after sex, you catch yourself thinking, "This is fun." You rarely initiate sex with your partner, or it feels like you need the situation to feel just right to get you in the mood. And then, with the physical versus emotional first, you might be physical first if physical touch is how you express and receive love most naturally. When you feel disconnected from your partner, sex is one of the first ways you want to reconnect. You feel more emotionally open and close during sex or after sex. Or regular sex helps you feel secure and connected in your relationship. That's a big one for me, personally. There's something about like the regularity of intimacy that that's like the barometer for me of how we're doing in our relationship.

>> Yeah. Which is so interesting, 'cuz for me, it's really not like if we had—like, I could be like riding high on like us having had amazing sex like a week ago or two weeks ago. And if I'm like, "Oh, well, there's been stuff that has come up in between them. We've been really busy at work. We maybe had some family stuff that we had to deal with." I'm like, "Yeah, no problem. The stuff has been in the way, but I'm still, you know, I'm still riding high on this. You know, this—we had some really great sex the week before. We were really consistent the week before, whatever." It's like it doesn't really compute to me. Whereas for you, even when there are reasonable explanations for why we haven't been having regular sex, for you, it's sort of—it's almost like an alarm bell ring. Not like, you know, not like things are falling apart, but like,

>> ...you know, you will be like,

>> ...you know, Vanessa will lead with, "Oh my God, it's been a while since we've had sex," whereas I lead with, "Oh, we've had all these things in the way."

>> Mhm.

>> And so, it's just a different way of looking at it. And I think the other thing I want to call out, too, is like, you know, the first one that she read, "physical touch is how you express and receive love most naturally," or like physical touch and sex. Um, I interestingly I am a physical touch kind of love language type. Like, I love physical touch, but I don't really, personally, I don't really relate with the rest of the bullets. So, yeah, I am much more of a connection first type. And but yeah, so I want to call that out that just because you might identify as a physical touch love language person, that doesn't immediately qualify you as a as a physical first type.

>> Yeah. Okay. So then let's talk about how you might know if you are a connection first type. You want to feel emotionally close with your partner before you're open to being physical. When you feel disconnected from your partner, you want to reconnect emotionally first. You struggle to want or enjoy sex if something feels off between you and your partner emotionally. Or meaningful conversation, quality time together, helps you feel ready for physical intimacy.

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Okay, so now let's get into more detail about each of the four types. So, we're going to start with brain-first, physical-desire-first type. Okay, so here is how we describe this type: You think about sex often, and sex is how you feel close to your partner. So, for you, desire comes out of nowhere. When you want to feel connected, your instinct is to be physically intimate first. Or if you find yourself seeming disconnected, you're thinking, "Ah, it's been a while since we've had sex. If we could just have sex, then this this feeling of lack of connection would go away."

>> If you're not having sex regularly, you probably find yourself feeling disconnected from your partner, or feeling like something is off in your relationship.

>> This is you.

>> Obvious this type is—this is me. And for you, sex is not separate from emotion. It is the emotional gloom.

>> Yeah, 'cuz like, it's so interesting. Like, if there's been a period where, you know, for good reason or for bad reason—or let's just say for good reason—we haven't been having a lot of sex, if Vanessa, you know, Vanessa might be like, "Oh, it's been so long, like..."

>> ... "Oh, I'm feeling, you know, I'm feeling concerned," or, "You know, I'm feeling like I would really like it to not have been so long." For me, I can be like, "Oh, but like, but we've been feeling so, you know, we've had a bunch of tough stuff coming up, but we've been feeling really emotionally connected." And it's like, for me, I'm like, "Yeah, I feel great about the emotional connection." Vanessa's like, "Not like whatever," but she'll be like, "Yeah, I know, but like, the sex." And so, it's just like it's just such an interesting difference in ways of looking at at it.

>> Okay, so here are the strengths for this type: We we bring heat, excitement, energy into the relationship. Your passion reminds your partner that intimacy can feel alive and invigorating even in everyday moments. You have the ability to initiate spontaneously to keep the spark alive.

>> Yeah. And I think that that can be can be really fun to be with that type of person because it's, yeah, they're they're bringing—yeah, they're bringing a lot of sexual energy to your relationship. So, when you are open to receiving that sexual energy, if that's—if you're not that type, it can feel really exciting. Who's like, "Oh yeah, this person is, you know, it's like someone who runs hot, kind of like, oh yeah, they're bringing the heat with them."

>> Yeah.

Okay. And then here are some areas where you can improve.

>> Yeah. 'Cuz everyone, they got superpowers, they got areas for development, they got their kryptonite.

>> So, you have to stop taking rejection personally. When your partner says no to sex—and truly this is the case in like, you know, any circumstance—but when your partner says no to sex, it's almost never about you. Like, it's about the circumstances going on. It's about what's going on within your partnership,

>> ...but it sure as hell feels like it's about you. If you're this type, by default, if you don't understand this,

>> ...any no is like it's basically like saying, "No, I don't want to be connected to you."

>> And if if you don't understand that this is the way that you're wired, when you hear a no, you're like, "Wait, what? You don't love me. You don't care about me. You don't care about our relationship. What's wrong? Like, what's wrong?" And so, yeah, it's it's so important to be able to realize, "Okay, this is just the way that my brain is wired. My partner saying no, like, my partner very much does love me. They do care about me, and they are not saying no because they're not into me..."

>> ...at all. There must be something else going on."

>> Mhm. Okay. So, yeah, you have to learn to separate your self-worth from your partner's sexual responses. Find other ways to feel emotionally close.

>> This is so important.

>> Yes. I mean, yeah. I I will say, when when we first started talking about the, you know, physical intimacy versus emotional intimacy first aspect of it, my inclination was so like, "Yeah, like, I want the physical intimacy first."

>> "Just give me the physical intimacy. Just give it to me."

>> And what...

>> ...everything will be better if you just give it to me. What I had to realize, um, which we actually wrote about in our book, "Sex Talks," is that we realized both physical and emotional intimacy are equally important and equally valid. But in relationships that are really struggling with disconnection, we think that you should focus on emotional intimacy first. It's it's too much for somebody who's feeling disconnected and unsafe to push themselves to be physical when they're not feeling close and, you know, connected to their partner. Whereas, you know, for somebody who wants that physical intimacy first, it's not pleasant to have to focus on the emotional intimacy first. "I'd rather my thing come first," but it's also about feeling safe, you know. So, I think one of the great things that we can do is, yeah, find other ways to feel emotionally close. Yes, you absolutely can feel that through sex. And this is not invalidating that. It's not saying like other ways are better, but it's just the more ways that you can feel emotionally close with your partner, the better.

>> Yeah. I think maybe a parallel to this, and I don't mean this as as a knock because we just did talk about a bunch of the superpowers of this type. And, you know, all of these types have areas for improvement, but it's it's almost like—it's almost like you are a super picky eater, and you have like one food that is like your go-to food. I like this comparison.

>> So, let's say you're like, "I just—I just want to eat chicken fingers like all day. That's, you know, it's my food, you know? Hey, it's got protein. It's got carbs. There's some fat in there. Like, you know, like I can survive off of that. I just want those [ __ ] chicken fingers," right?

>> And that can be fine. Chicken fingers are great. I love chicken fingers. I eat a lot of chicken fingers, I'm not going to lie. However, if you are having symptoms of malnutrition or you're having digestive issues—well, let's just say malnutrition or something. Maybe you're like, "Yeah, you're you're losing weight uncontrollably. You're malnourished." Like, your instinct might be like, "Oh, well, I need to eat more, so more chicken fingers." But it's probably best if you expand your diet a little bit. You need some vegetables. You need a whole variety of things. This is the important thing: You can still eat chicken fingers. You can't just eat chicken fingers. You like that? I came up with that on the spot.

>> Okay. So, yeah. Explore quality time, verbal affirmations, shared activities. So, sex isn't the only way that you connect because it also it puts a lot of pressure on your partner if sex is the only way that you can feel connected.

>> Yeah. 'Cuz it's not. It's not. The bottom line is, I think we can all agree, sex is not the only way that you can feel connected. I get that before understanding this, it can be just your default. That's why that's what my brain goes to without me thinking more rationally about it. But rationally, I think we all would agree that there are a variety of ways to feel connected within a relationship.

>> Get comfortable with planned intimacy. So, if your partner does not have brain-first desire, scheduling sex might feel unsexy to you, but it can actually create a ton of anticipation and excitement if done the right way. We have a whole podcast episode on how to do this. So, just scroll back. It was just a few weeks ago. Navigate spells with grace. So, learn to channel your sexual energy into other areas when sex isn't happening as often as you would like. Yeah, I think that that's that's a good one because it's like, yeah, we can also it can...

>> ...feel like, I imagine you feel like this, almost like pent-up energy. It's like, "I have this pent-up energy that needs a release," and there are a whole variety of outlets...

>> ...for that type of energy. And I'm not just talk—like, I'm not just talking about like sexual energy or sexual frustration. And like, yeah, obviously sex is the thing that is going to relieve sexual frustration, but think about, hey, like, I, you know, my body kind of builds this energy or this electric charge. I need to find a way to release that. Maybe that's through, you know, going to the gym, a physical activity, something that you can really pour your energy into.

>> And initiate with confidence and flexibility. Practice initiating in ways that honor both your desire and your partner's needs.

>> Yeah. Because I think one of the things that can really happen for this type is that after a certain amount of rejection, you can feel like, "Well, screw this. I'm just not going to initiate anymore because my partner like doesn't like me. They don't care about me. They don't want sex." And I think this is kind of like a very—the stereotypical male concern is we hear from so many men who are like, "Oh yeah, well, I just gave up initiating 5 years ago. I was first—I stopped initiating to see if my partner would even notice." They didn't notice, and I didn't tell them, and I just don't do it anymore because I can't take the rejection. And so, yeah, it's about—I'm not saying, "Oh, if this is your situation, you just have to start initiating overnight." Again, if you're in that kind of a hole, there's a lot of conversation that needs to happen, and maybe some therapy, some help. But the the key here is that it's learning that you can continue to initiate with confidence even if the last time your partner said no. Because it's—it's, you know, it is that learning of, "Okay, a no doesn't mean that they hate me. A no doesn't mean that they hate sex with me. A no means something else." And you can talk about what that no means such that the next time you...

>> ...don't have like, you know, this negative self-worth feeling where you're like, you're initiating in a roundabout way or without confidence. It's like, it's realizing, "Hey, my superpower is that I want sex out of nowhere, and that I can initiate with confidence and with, you know, energy." And so, it's learning, "Hey, I can continue to do that even if not 100% of the time. The answer is yes."

>> Okay, let's get into the body-plus-emotional desire type.

>> Another highly stereotypical—the stereot—this is the stereotypical woman.

>> Yes. Okay. So, you don't think about sex until you're already feeling emotionally close to your partner. Desire doesn't come out of nowhere for you. It slowly builds when trust, connection, and affection are all in place. Sex feels like a celebration of connection, not a tool to create it. And you need meaningful conversation, quality time, or emotional safety before your body is ready to be intimate.

>> Yeah, I think that that feeling like a celebration of connection is a big one. We hear that from a lot of people that it's like sex feels like the cherry on top. It's not the means to an end. It's like it is the end—the end result or the culmination of all of this other stuff.

>> So, here are your superpowers: Your ability to lead with heart create sexual experiences that feel deep, meaningful, and alive. Your emotional depth can melt your partner's defenses and help them feel completely safe to open up. And when you feel connected, you respond warmly, and you bring incredible presence into intimacy.

>> Yeah. So, I think I want to call out the importance of these superpowers because I think that, you know, one of the challenges with just the body-first, brain-first model is most people hear that and go, "Oh, I'm body first. Brain first sounds so much better." And I and I there's probably a temptation after we read the last one to think, "Oh, that last one sounds so much better, too." If we were just both that that type, all of our problems would be solved. But the thing is, if two people are that type—and yeah, there are probably some rare relationships where you do have, or, you know, some rare opposite-sex relationships where you have two people of that type—the reality is, if you were two of that type, it is much more likely that you are probably going to be having a lot more sex, but probably it's going to be more like just hot, steamy, quick sexual experiences, rather than deep and meaningful ones. And so, I think that there really is a magic to, you know, to having sex that feels really meaningful, and having someone where, yeah, it's like when I am open to have sex, it is because everything feels really harmonious, and we've reached a certain level, and it's like, "I'm open to this bigger experience."

>> ...and so, I think the magic here is realizing that, "Oh yeah, this is a really important type to be. It's a really important kind of counterpoint to the the other more stereotypical type, because when you get it right, you can really create these magical experiences." And so, it's not like, "Oh, well, we always have to do it my way, or we always have to do it their way." It's realizing, "Oh yeah, no, we are shooting, you know, and yeah, you're not going to have those big..."

huge, meaningful, like fireworks types experiences every single time. But it's, hey, we're shooting for having these on a regular basis. And sometimes maybe we have sex that's a little more the way that my partner would like it. Sometimes we have it a little more in the way that I would like it. But the, but the, if we're shooting for giving up, you know, each trying to to, you know, meet each other a bit more in the middle, we can create these really magical experiences.

Okay. So, here are some ways that you can improve. Initiate. Of this type often does not initiate. But even if you don't feel that like brain-first desire, you can still start the physical touch, start the activities that help you warm up. Like, you are still responsible for initiating in the relationship, too.

Yeah. And it's just, hey, just try initiating a little bit more than you normally do, because likely your default is to initiate rarely or almost never. So, just a little bit more. And, yeah, remind yourself, because I think this is the, so, so important piece for this type is that they will say, "Man, when I'm in the middle of sex or at the end of sex, I ask myself, why am I not doing this more? I [ __ ] love this. This is so great." And so, you have to remind yourself of that. Oh, yeah. Once, once we got started, I love this. I told myself last time we were doing this that I wanted to do this more. So, even though there's a part of me that feels hesitant, I can initiate an activity that I know is going to warm me up.

So, don't say, "Hey, like, hey, like, let's get down to business right now." You can say, "Hey, let's make out for a couple minutes." Um, and like, slowly take each other's clothes off. So, like, literally initiate the thing that is going to get you there.

Distinguish between close enough and perfect. I, I think sometimes this type runs into feeling like the stars have to be in alignment to be open to sex. So, it can be really helpful for you to identify, like, what do you actually need versus what feels nice to have.

Communicate your needs clearly. Help your partner understand the specific types of emotional connection that make you feel open. So, if you have that, like, stereotypical male partner who's, you know, brain-first and physical connection-first, sometimes just hearing something like, "Well, I want to feel closer to you."

They're like, "Well, but what does that mean? I don't understand." You have to help your partner understand.

Yeah. It's so important to be able to give specifics, talk about specifics, identify the little things that move the needle the most, and focus on those first. And if that, and you know, if you're, they're doing that and it's not feeling like enough, then figure out, okay, what else is missing. But, yeah, it's like, you have to understand to you, when you say, "Oh god, I, I want to feel more connection," that feels like a very clear thing to you, and you expect that your partner will understand it in the way that you do. But assume it's almost like a foreign language, or it's like, if you just say a sentence in a language that they have, like, you know, a year's worth of proficiency at, probably not going to understand. But if you give it to them, you know, a word or a phrase at a time, they might start to get it.

Remember that sex creates emotional connection, too. So, your default is to think of emotional connection first, but it's also really important to recognize that sex can create that as well. And challenge yourself to say yes more often. Of course, like, within reason, but try to be open to intimacy, even if you're not fully in the mood yet. I think you might be surprised by how your desire can follow when, again, you give yourself something to respond to.

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That's vmtherapy.com/spark, because a little spark goes a long way. Now, let's get into. So, you know, the first type was the more stereotypically male type. The second type is the more stereotypically female type. Now,

it's like the double male, double female, cuz it's like on both of those elements, it's the stereotypical male. So, it's like the male-male and female-female.

Now, we have the ones that are like a little bit of a mix. So, first up, we have the brain plus emotional desire type. So, you think about sex often, but you need emotional alignment in order for it to feel fulfilling. If something feels off between you and your partner, you are probably not going to act on your desire, even though you feel that desire. When everything aligns emotionally and physically, the sex can feel incredible and deeply fulfilling. But this type and the next type, you know, doesn't really fit that traditional gender stereotype. So, it can feel a little bit confusing to you to have these seemingly conflicted needs.

Yeah, this is literally my life that you've just described here. Like, I felt, I felt like something was so wrong with me until I just conceptualized it in this way. And it's like, oh, yeah, I think about sex all the time, but I don't always act on it. I think about sex in this idealized way of, oh, yeah, like assuming that we have this certain level of connection. I'm like fantasizing about what that kind of sex looks like. So, it's like I can literally be in the same room as Vanessa, we're feeling disconnected, and I can be thinking about literally fantasizing about having sex with you in this idealized way, and there's a 0% chance that I, before I understood this, would take action on that, cuz I'm like, the vibes are off. Like, why would, why would I do that? I'm, I'm fine just fantasizing about it. And then I would feel horrible, like, wait, what? But what's wrong with me? I'm supposed to be, I'm supposed to want it. I clearly have all the signs of wanting it, but I'm not doing anything about it. And it's like, oh, no, I just need to have, invest in a little connection. Cuz that's the other part as a man. It's like, I, even though I want that connection, I've been socialized and I've developed in a way where I don't always know how to initiate those emotional connecting activities.

So, it can be so powerful to realize that and then think about, oh, okay, yeah, what would feel good to me? What is like, one small thing that we could do to laugh a little bit more? For me, it's like, literally once we start laughing a little bit, boom, it hits me like a ton of bricks. Oh, I'm ready to go.

So, your superpower is that you bring passion and depth. You can experience brain-first desire while also valuing that emotional intimacy, which brings a rich, multi-dimensional connection, just incredible energy and presence into intimacy.

Oh, thanks, babe.

But here's where you can improve. Make sure to express your emotional needs clearly. Help your partner understand what feeling off actually means and what would help you feel more aligned. That specificity that we mentioned earlier.

Yeah, cuz it sucks. It sucks for me. I'm like, "Oh, something just, the vibes feel off." And to me, that feels like something meaningful. To Vanessa, that probably just feels super shitty to hear. Like, what the hell is that supposed to mean, dude? Like, what can we do about that? Right? So, it's like, yeah, I think it's just, yeah, it's so important to be able to express what is feeling off, what is missing, what could we do instead?

Um, identify your off threshold. So, like, is it slightly off where actually physical intimacy might help you reconnect, or does it feel majorly off where you need to talk about it first, or there's some like recalibration here?

Yeah, cuz spoiler alert, very often physical intimacy will help you feel more connected. Like, the reality is, unless things are really, really off, like, there is a way to, to, to learn that physical intimacy will make you feel more connected. Just like for someone that is a physical connection-first type, they can learn to invest in connection first and reap the benefits of that before having sex. Like, we can all push ourselves a little in one direction or the other. And like, we can learn to, to value both sides of these.

Okay. Be ready with suggestions. If your partner initiates and you're not feeling it, suggest a specific emotionally connecting activity instead of just saying no. Make sure to pay attention to the emotional connection and closeness after sex. So, if you have like a physical intimacy-first partner, remind yourself that physical intimacy can be a pathway to the connection that you crave. That was one of the first things that I started doing before we actually, probably in like the year or two before discovering this combination of things, was I started thinking after sex, "Oh man, I feel so close to Vanessa right now. This feels so good." Um, and once I started saying that to myself, acknowledging that and validating that, I would find myself thinking the next day, the day after, "I want to feel like I did right after we finished yesterday. That felt so good."

And that unlocked something for me. Then I was like, "Oh, I know how we can feel that way. We can have sex again. I could initiate that, even though I'm not wildly horny right now in this moment. I'm horny for that feeling that I know that I will get."

And so, that really opened things up for me. So, that was, I, weirdly, I kind of discovered the workaround here before actually discovering, like, this type specifically. And that one is so meaningful if you are, if you are of this type, like, just find yourself, just remind yourself to think afterwards, "Man, this feels so good." Think about what it, like, really almost like take a picture in your mind of what it looks like, what it feels like afterwards, and and tag that with, "This is what I feel when I have sex."

And initiate. It is your, your responsibility to initiate, too, even when things aren't perfect and perfectly lined up.

All right. And let's bring it home with the body plus physical desire type. So, you are not someone who walks around thinking about sex, but once something intimate gets started, your desire builds and can become surprisingly strong. You need a warm-up to get interested, but once you do, regular sex is your pathway to deep connection. While you might typically find yourself being a bit guarded, when you're with a partner who gives the physical push that you need, you find yourself feeling more open, connected, and secure.

So, your superpowers, you have an incredible ability to respond and open up once you are physically engaged. You bring depth, presence, and emotional security when intimacy is regular. And your partner gets to experience a side of you that few others see, and that is a gift.

Yeah, I think this is an interesting one. It's really exemplified by someone that almost becomes a new person, or a better version of themselves, once they start opening up with the physical intimacy with their partner. They can seem kind of guarded or closed down. And I think this can be a great person to be in a relationship with, cuz it's, it's, it's like, you know, there's people on the outside see this person in a certain way, and it's, you get to see the side of them that nobody else sees.

Okay. And some areas where you can improve, understand and communicate your warm-up needs. Again, this is all about getting specific. Initiate. Even with that response of desire, you can still start the physical touch or the activities that help you warm up. You can develop subtle signals, like little ways to let your partner know you're open to intimacy. Verbally reinforce how sex makes you feel. Your partner may not realize how important sex is to you since you typically don't initiate often, so telling them can be really beneficial. And don't feel ashamed of your slower start. Like, your desire style is normal and valid. It doesn't mean a lack of interest. It's just how desire works.

So, those are our four types. When we were putting together this model, we were trying to, like, think of different ways to, like, conceptualize them. And actually, what came up for us, and this might date us a little bit, but we thought about Sex and the City. So, we have Samantha in that classic, like, stereotypical male-male type, the brain plus physical desire.

Yeah. She just wants, yeah. She hooks up with a lot of people. She feels great about it. Her default is, is sex in order to get to know someone.

Then we have Charlotte, who's that more stereotypical female-female, the body plus emotional desire type, where, you know, she wants to feel that emotional connection first. She has responsive desire.

She's, she's sort of the, the chronic long-term relationship of the group, right? Like, she's not hooking up with a lot of people, but she does open up sexually once she's in long-term relationships with people.

Then we have Carrie as the brain plus emotional desire type. So, she has spontaneous desire, but she wants to feel that emotional intimacy, emotional connection with partners first. And then Miranda as the body plus physical. So, that responsive desire, but wanting to have physical intimacy first.

Yeah. Like, you kind of see her bloom almost in the rarer moments in that show where she is in a long-term, like, comfortable relationship with people.

All right. And then let's just wrap this up with a couple of quick notes about what to do if you and your partner are different types.

Because you probably are. That's probably where you're at now. You're like, "Okay, great. Like, I understand me. I think I have a sense of who my partner is, but what the heck do we do now?"

Yeah. So, really, like, we hope that this model just creates a new shared language. That, have them listen to this episode, pause it, and, you know, have conversations about it, but create this language where you can talk openly about your needs with no blame or shame. Practice empathy. Like, try to see things from your partner's perspective. Their type isn't better or worse than yours. It's just different. And find that sweet spot of ways that you can honor both of your needs. So, like, for example, let's say one of you is a brain plus physical desire type and the other is body plus physical desire. Like, you can start with extended cuddling or kissing. So, that gives the body plus physical desire type that physical buildup that they need, while still providing the brain plus physical desire type with physical connection.

Yeah. And then the biggest suggestion that I can give you, which I think is the, the way that this model can really help, is, you know, you each have these two aspects of your type, right? And I think that where people get hung up or at a standstill is thinking, "I have to completely change this area of me in order to meet my partner where they are." What I would focus on rather instead is look at, okay, so you have these two, you know, you have the, you know, the body and brain axis, you have the, the emotional and physical first axis. Rather than trying to change, like, everything about yourself, like, "I got to jump to a completely different box," think about how can we as a couple, how can we both try to make subtle adjustments on just one of these at a time? Let's work on one of these areas. So, okay, maybe one of us is brain-first, maybe one of us is body-first. How can we, you know, one day try to move a little bit in one direction? How can we the next day try to move a little bit in the other connection so that we're both working on just making subtle adjustments on one element. So, you might find that if you each share an attribute in one area, then it's like, great, we don't need to make any adjustments in that area. Let's just focus on trying to play around with the energy in the other area. Or if you find that you guys don't share any of those attributes, rather than being like, "Oh my god, one person has to jump from one corner all the way to the other corner of the box." Let's just try to make little movements in one area or in the other area.

All right. Well, that is it for our model. We would love to hear your thoughts. So, please leave us some feedback. You can comment on Spotify.

Yeah. Let us know what type you are. Let us know what your partner is.

Yeah. Come over to Instagram. Camera at Vanessa and Xander. That's Xander with an X. And thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release episodes every Thursday.