Joe Rogan Experience #2069 - Dr. Shawn Baker

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day we good, and we're up. Awesome. What's up, Sean?

Good to see you. Good to be back, Joe.

Thanks. You're still alive. You've been eating nothing but meat, and you're still alive.

I am still alive. [__] Doubters be gone.

Yeah, yeah. Hey Joe, before we get started, I just want to say thank you for, one, for the stem cell stuff, but also for, you know, just just having the conversation that other people are not willing to have. And you know, we've I see where they tried to cancel you and all the BS, and and you know, you didn't have to do that, but you you know, let other people have discussions so we're not being censored. So just in case other people—I'm sure you've been told that before.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's a it's a weird time, man. It's first of all, it's a weird time that a guy like me has a show, which is bizarre, that this kind of, you know, that I'm a source of information in some sort of strange way, because that's certainly not what I set out to do. Just along the line, I, you know, I'm curious. I wanted to talk to people, you know, including you, and uh, this diet, and you know, I tell people I uh I'm not strict with the my carnivore diet. Like Saturday night, I had sushi, but I'll tell you I felt like [__] afterwards. I ate a ton of it. I ate so much. I'm a glutton, but uh, all that rice, I was like, oh, it just makes me realize like how much better I feel when I only eat carnivore, when I when I just eat mostly meat. I feel so much better. I mean uh, maybe it's anecdotal, maybe it's just me and you, maybe and many other people that do it, but there's something to it.

But you're an extreme example because you have been doing it now for how many years?

So I'm starting my eighth year.

So just just uh, eighth year. Yeah. So when I came to see you last time, it was almost it was six years ago, so I I'd been just finished seven years now, so yeah, it's been a while. And people should know that you're you're actually a doctor; you're an orthopedic surgeon. And you didn't didn't at one point in time they took your license away because you were providing medical information, but you got it back.

Yeah, it was kind of an interesting thing. So when I was I was practicing medicine, busy orthopedic surgeon, you know, plugging away, doing a thing, and then I started realizing, hey, I can have people avoid surgery by changing their diet; their pain went away. I was like, you don't need surgery. Well, that is not what hospitals want you to do. They want you to, you know, keep the keep the the engines turning, so to speak. And so I, you know, said, hey, look, I want to practice some lifestyle stuff, and that ended up, you know, leading to a long battle with myself in the hospital. The hospital basically suspended my privileges and went to the state. The state said, hey, you can fight this um, you know, in in our in our sort of State Medical Board situation, or you can get independently evaluated. And I said, well, let me just get independently evaluated because I don't I don't I don't see I the hospital. And so that was done. It was like right at the time when I saw you a couple days before, and they came back and said to there's nothing wrong with you; go back to work. And so I got that I got that, and then I had to, you know, reapply to the board, reapplied for a license; they granted my license, and I've renewed it three times since then. So I'm a licensed medical, you know, licensed doctor, you know uh, but I just, you know, right now I'm not actually actively practicing because I got frustrated with the medical system. I think our Health Care system has some serious serious problems, you know, some serious conflicts of interest, some serious I think the the incentives for providing what I think is appropriate healthc care is is misaligned. And so, you know, over the last few years, so we set up a company; it's called Rivero, and we we're licensed in all 50 states. We have Physicians all across the country, and we're basically set up to provide what I call actual healthc care, root cause medicine, get people off the medications, actually, you know, try and fix their their disease and not dism medicate everybody because we have such a s system where everybody's just like, you know, you go to the doctor, you know, here's your diagnosis, here's your drugs; keep stay on the rest of your life, which I think is the wrong the wrong course.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. What what's the name of the company?

So the company's called rivo, R-E-O. And so we raise a bunch of money from from crowdfunding and also a bunch of venture capitalist, and so uh, we've been we've been basically building that. We've got thousands of people that are basically on the waiting list. We launched in a couple weeks, and so uh, you know, so like I said, it's going to be something that I think will provide Healthcare as it should be, you know, instead of like I said, instead of the just the symptom management, putting Band-Aids on stuff, actually getting people healthy, cuz I think a lot of diseases are are reversible, and we've seen that all the time, you know, we see that pretty frequently.

Well, that's one of the most fascinating things about this carnivore diet is how many, albeit anecdotal stories you have of people that had all these different conditions, chronic pain, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic fatigue, all these different issues, skin issues, eczema, all these different things that they were treating with medication; it wasn't working; they were experiencing side effects; they start eliminating everything from their diet except for meat, and all of a sudden these problems go away. I mean, there's too many of those stories for it to be ignored.

Yeah, it's it's I've been astounded by the number of number of, you know, just crazy crazy things that have happened, and again it's not, you know, it's not that, you know, that is the the most profound rigorous type of type of science that you can do, but it's you can't ignore it at this point. There are literally probably hundreds of thousands of people not tried. I go all I've been all over the world now talking about this, and I get people from Germany and Greece and, you know, China and Japan and Africa that have all done this, and they say the same thing: look, I was sick and now I'm not sick anymore. And so whether or not that is, you know, enough evidence to say this is, you know, a a good treatment, you know, I can't say that, but you can't deny it's happening, and I'm I've been trying to get research done. In fact, there was a study done out of Harvard University two years ago; I don't know if you saw that. So uh, there's a guy named David Lwig who is a senior author, and David I've talked to him; he is the most ethical, you know, just like he does not want any money from industry; he refuses to take anything; he's like, I want to make sure I do pure science, and they did a study, and they looked at 2,000 people on a carnivore diet, and basically what they saw was like 95% of the people significant Improvement across the board. Now uh, the thing was interesting to me is the diabetics; we had like 225 diabetics in that population; 92% of them came off all their insulin; these are all type twos, you know, so that's that's, you know, 100% came off all these other injectable drugs, the gp1 receptor Agonist which we've heard so much about lately, you know, the oics and semaglutide, right? Came off uh, something called a pcsk9 inhibitor, no sorry, the sglt2 Inhibitors, uh 84% came off their meformin. So it's just like this is clearly a uh, at least at the very least a therapeutic tool, and that's how I push this. I don't tell like, you know, I wrote a book on this; I didn't say humans are carnivores; I said humans are opportunistic omnivores. If we were if we were living in the middle ages and we came across we're out hunting mammoths and all of a sudden, you know, the ice ages rather, and we came across a tree full of tree full of Twinkies, I mean, we [__] I'm gonna eat that; you we try, right? We'd eat it, right? Because, you know, we would, but I mean it's and you know, there's people there's obviously people that eat plants that aren't dead and are doing okay, so we're omnivores, but from a disease, you know, mitigation standpoint, I mean, a the a therapeutic carnivore diet is tremendously effective. I mean, it's one of the more effective things I've seen across the board, and so at the the very least, you know, you'd say let's explore that aspect of it, because, you know, like I said, there's people that are suffering. We've got so many people. I know we we may talk about vegan, carnivore, all the, you know, everything in between, but I think at the end of the day, everybody's eating processed garbage; we're we're just eating [__], I mean, and and that is really one of the problems in in the one thing, and you said this, Joe, when you eat this meat, you're like, I don't want that other [__] cuz you're actually satiated, and this is a thing that's I think problematic because if you look at inter there was a study that just came out now looking at um the financial incentive for Ultra processed food. Why do we have this stuff? So you look at the big uh asset management groups, you know, you've got BlackRock, you got Vanguard, you've got State Street uh and capital, and I can't remember the full names on these, but but those guys collectively own huge portions of Nestle, PepsiCo, all these other processed food companies, and they also have they also have significant shares in Pharmaceutical manufacturer, so you basically you sicken the population by feeding them garbage, and then you just you you profit on their on their disease, and I think that's what's going on, and I think it's really unfortunate, you know, and I think, you know, some people make an argument, you know, is it is a net is there a net benefit from feeding more people versus how many people are getting sick, and I think there's a point where, you know, the line goes, you know, if if if every most people are getting sick from this and only a few people are benefiting, then you've you've kind of crossed that line of, you know, does it does it is it for the great or good and becomes into the realm of almost evil in my in my mind.

Well, I think it started out with just trying to make money. I mean, that's that's what started out with the processed foods, and I think then they realize, well, now you're selling more medication to these people, so you make more money on top of that, more money. I don't even think it's a conspiracy; I think it's just opportunity. I think they just look at profits, and that's what these corporations are established for; that their bottom line is they're supposed to make as much money as they can for their shareholders; that's their responsibility; their responsibility is to have like a cute cartoon guy that sells you sugar cereal because, you know, when I was a kid, that's what I wanted; I want Cocoa Pops; I wanted Captain Crunch; all that stuff.

Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why all that garbage is like it's so addictive; it's so delicious, you know, and it's clearly targeted for young people; clearly.

Yeah, I mean that paper that I that I talked about, and I think, you know, it's in that list that give Jamie, but um, it basically says this is the whole thing; they they make tremendous short-term profits for their for their shareholders, and that's why they do it. So yeah, it's clearly financially driven; you can't blame them; I mean, this is what any business wants to do; wants to be successful; it's about making money; like everything is really yeah, that's what they do.

I think the cutting the [__] out is the biggest factor in this whole carnivore diet thing; I really do. I mean, I I I definitely think there's there's obviously meat itself, regardless of the [__] in the propaganda; meat is the most nutrient-dense food you can eat. All this crap where they say that meat causes cancer; if meat caused cancer, most people would have cancer. 95 plus perc of the population on Earth eats meat, and all this propaganda you hear about, you know, you're going to get cancer, you diseases are going to go all these different things; it does not seem to be the case in people that just eat meat. When you're looking at my experience, I have not in the again anecdotal; I've never met anybody that went on this diet that didn't have a positive result. Everybody that I know that goes on this diet now, clearly there's genetic differences; some people have definitely there's people that have that um lone star tick issue where a buddy of mine has that; he he got bit by a tick, and he developed an allergy to red meat; it's a real pain the ass for him, and it went away; he he had it for a year, and it went away, and it started to come back again um, that but that's rare. For most people, red meat is a very nutrient-dense food.

Yeah, that's that's that's absolutely clear. I mean, and and your point is, you know, if you get rid of the garbage, you're going to have you're going to have a benefit whatever that you go on; I think that's clear. And you know, when we talk about because you mentioned you're not totally strict; I am, you know, fairly strict, but I'm not religious about it. I don't sit there like, you know, for instance, my my son's birthday was, you know, a couple days ago; thanks. I had some I had a piece of pumpkin pie, man, so I, you know, I had had that in 10 years, but I'm like, you know, no big deal; I didn't die, but it's not like I said, my diet literally is probably 98% red meat; I mean, I just I just eat steaks every day, you know; it's kind of crazy, you know.

Well, the videos are hilarious of you eating steaks, listening to vegan propaganda; just you have a big cutting board and a giant cleaver, and you're slicing off pieces of tri-tip while you're watching vegan propaganda and smiling.

Yeah, it's pretty fun to do that stuff, and I I definitely uh, you know, like I said, if there's anybody that has, you know, like I said, if I'm wrong, I mean, it'll be clear that I've been eating meat like significantly for for for many many years. I put a lot of that on on video, but you know, one of the interesting thing is, you know, because the backlash you often hear is what about cholesterol? Because I think that is a really important thing; I really wanted to talk about that.

Yeah, awesome, cuz there's some, you know, I think you saw that thing about the Oreo cookies? Did you see that?

Yes, I did. Yeah, let's talk about that. So anyway, there's a so there's a little backstory on this, and last time I I mentioned a guy named Dave Felman, and he was he was a guy that, you know, he's an engineer, pretty smart guy, and he like goes on a like a a low-carb, you know, higher-fat diet, and his chest he feels great; he's like, oh my God, everything feels great, but his cholesterol shoots through the roof, and he's like, oh my God, I'm going to die, right? So he's freaked out about this stuff, and he starts looking into it very mechanistically and spending years and years and years studying this stuff and finally puts together this sort of theory, and it's still theory, but it's it's there showing that there's a lot of evidence showing that it's probably likely true, called the lean mass hyper responder, and there's something called a lipid energy model. And so what this Oreo cookie thing was is another guy, another researcher, he's a PhD from Oxford; he's getting he's also finishing his medical degree at Harvard, and his name is Nick Norwitz, and he basically said, look, this lipid energy model works like this: when you cut carbs low and you get lean, right, your body says, hey, there's not a lot of energy in my cells; my liver glycogen isn't full; my muscles aren't full of energy, so I need to get energy there somehow. And so what happens is is the liver starts sending fat out into the bloodstream like to to so you have energy to work, right? And so what what he's showing is that if I just add Oreo cookies or some other energy-dense maybe junk food in there um, the body will say, hey, I've got plenty of energy now, so the liver shuts down; it doesn't traffic the cholesterol anymore or the triglycerides and in the cholesterol. So that sort of validates what's going on here. And so but the question is, is it bad if my cholesterol is really high, but I'm fit, I'm lean, my you know, I don't have diabetes, I don't have pre-diabetes, I don't have insulin resistance, I don't have high blood pressure, you know, I'm otherwise metabolically healthy? Because you see these people, so you see they're lean athletes, you know, they go on a diet like a carnivore diet or even a ketogenic diet, and they're like, I feel great; it's the best I've felt in years, but my cholesterol is through the roof, so I got to stop. And so that's the real question. So on December 8th, there's going to be a landmark study that's going to be pre presented by a guy named Matt Budoff, who's a who's a uh cardiologist out of UCLA; I think he's one of the U he's attached to UCLA somewhere. And basically what they did was they took 100 people, all who have sky-high cholesterol; we're talking like total cholesterol 500, 600, 700 milligrams per deciliter; it's enough to give your your doctor a heart attack; you know, you walk in there with your cholesterol; it's like 600; what the hell? So he's got all these patients that're that they are all otherwise metabolically healthy though; none of them are diabetics; none of them have blood blood pressures; they're relatively lean. And what they did was they did high-level CT angiography these people, looking really detailed at how much plaques in their blood vessel, and they're all older guys; they're like average age like our age, like mid-50s, like mid-late 50s, right? So this is where you'd expect to start seeing heart disease, and when they did that scan, almost none of them had any level of significant, you know, vascular disease; they were like clean clean arteries. And so so what and what they're doing is they're running them for a year, and then they're going to repeat the study, right? Say in one year, has anything occurred? Now the criticism of that will be that oh, it takes 20 years to do that, but Matt Budoff is like the world leading expert on how fast vascular disease develops, right? So he's a guy that designed the study; he he he knows this stuff, so he said a year will show us for sure if vascular disease is going to occur. So what they're doing on the eighth is they're showing the preliminary data that shows all these people have almost no heart disease, and they compare it to something called the Miami Heart uh data set, which is like the the like the the perfect data set for if you want to compare what's going on with vascular disease. And so in February, they'll finish up uh the collection of data, and then we'll get to see what happens after a year. Now I suspect what will happen is they'll show no progression, little progression, or even reversal, which would be shocking because all these people are saying cholesterol causes heart disease, because if you listen, you know, listen to guys like because I know you had Peter on here, Peter A. on here, and he says, look, it's just a matter of how much cholesterol over how much time; if it's high for a long period of time, you're going to get heart disease. But if this turns out to be what what what I think it's going to show, which which it likely will show, then that throws a monkey wrench in that whole whole uh theory, because it's like, wait a minute, maybe it's a dependent variable; maybe if you're not fat, you know, out of shape, have high blood pressure and diabetes, that that LDL cholesterol being high is not as much of a problem as we thought it was, which is I mean, that's really I mean, that's paradigm-shifting quite honestly.

Where did the theory of LDL cholesterol being bad for you come from?

Well, I mean, that goes back into the I mean, when they started looking at cholesterol, this is in rabbits way back in like the 1920s or something like that; they started feeding rabbits high-cholesterol diets, and the rabbits got heart disease. Well, rabbits don't really eat high-cholesterol diets; they don't they don't really; it's an unnatural diet for them, but they they started looking at, you know, the associational data started out back in the 50s when Eisenhower had his heart attack, and everybody's freaking out because, you know, we we saw a rise in in heart disease, you know, 1940s, 1950s, and it's been, you know, has been a number one killer in Western population since then. And so a guy named Ancel Keys was one of one of the ones that sorted promoting that theory; they did, you know, associational studies where they say, well, look at these countries; they eat a lot of saturated fat, and they have a high cholesterol, and they die more more commonly out of heart disease um, and so that that basically data has been done over and over again; I mean, they've done uh Mendelian randomization studies, which there's some problems with those those types of things; they've done um, you know, studies where they can show that, you know, we can lower cholesterol and cardiovascular disease decreases, so we know that, you know, that's the whole premise behind statin drugs. Some people think it's a pleomorphic effect or it's like a side effect, like maybe it's decreasing the inflammation, and by decreasing the inflammation, you're actually improving heart disease, but there's been I mean there I mean there's a ton of evidence that would point to yes, that is what's going on. Now what I would say is again, you're looking at a general population, and and the other thing is all-cause mortality. So clearly there's a lot of evidence that points to like you like normally they like your total cholesterol below like 190, LDL below 100 something like that, but if we look at like population studies and all-cause mortality, cancer, uh heart disease, uh dementia, infectious disease, so on and so forth, the people with higher cholesterol actually live longer; they they're the ones who live longer. And so the question is, you know, maybe I won't get a heart attack, but I'm going to get cancer instead because my cholesterol is too low, perhaps. Now the critics of that will say it's reverse causality; it's like the only reason your cholesterol was low was because you had cancer, right? And cancer is making your your cholesterol go down because cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and some of the other lipoproteins actually have a function; they participate in our immune response, so it's there for a reason; it's not just for the hell of it, right? We we have our reason for this stuff um, and so that you know, but there's a I mean there's a a plethora of studies on this stuff; some of it's been paid for by the pharmaceutical Industries, which you of course there's a little bit of conflict of interest in in some of that, you know, I would imagine um, but again, if you talk to 99% of the cardiologist, they'll they'll be on board with this, but like I said, this sort of population which we've never studied, we have no data on these people, you know, it's like like like if you go on a carnivore diet, and Joe, I I know you've gotten lean, you feel good, probably your blood pressure is good, probably your you know your your U your glucose is good, is that mean it's dangerous for you? And and the answer is we don't know yet, but this this study will shed a ton of light on this. And so this is coming out like I said, the preliminary data December 8th when Budoff presents to the to the big conference, and then and then when they finish the collecting the all the full data in February, they'll probably publish that, probably spring, summer, something like that.

Are you aware of any of the results?

I'm aware of the preliminary data, right? And and they're I talked to the researchers, and they're

Like man, we don't—they know the results, but they don't want to share it because they don't—they don't want the cat getting out of the bag early. But it's going to—we're going to get it on December 8th. And basically, it's gonna—what I—what I think—I'm—I'm 90% certain what it's going to show is people with super high cholesterol that are otherwise super lean and healthy compared to the average population have less risk for cardiovascular disease based on this data. That's what I think is going to happen. Now we'll know for sure on December 8th when Bud off presents.

There's also an issue with dietary cholesterol and what dietary cholesterol—how it shows up in the body. People have this assumption that when you consume dietary cholesterol, it raises cholesterol that you can measure in the blood. Yeah, that's—that's been shown to be completely—uh, in fact, 2015 USDA said, "No, cholesterol does not cause elevated cholesterol in the blood." That's been shown—not because—now fascinating—which is fascinating. But they'll say what they will say is saturated fat, which often runs with cholesterol because the only reason—only place you get cholesterol is in animal products, and very often you'll get saturated fat in animal products. And so they'll say, "But it's—it's not the cholesterol, but it's actually the saturated fat."

We know that saturated fat was demonized by the sugar industry, yeah, in that [ __ ] study that they put—put out in the 1960s where they paid these guys the equivalent of $50,000 today to lie. Yeah, I mean, that's—that—that's clearly—that clearly happened. That was Harvard University where they basically took a bunch of money to basically demonize fat and—and protect sugar. And I think that's been going on for—which is wild—the sugar industry bribed those doctors, and that information has been the basis that people have been making recommendations on forever—on a fraudulent study. And still to this day, doctors will cite that, not knowing it. And when you tell—tell them about it, they're like, "What are you talking about?" And then you'll show—pull it up on Google, and they just go, "Huh, what is this?" Like, there's so many doctors that aren't aware that the demonization of saturated fat was specifically caused by these papers by these doctors that were bribed.

Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it—it is crazy to think—uh, how much, you know, I—you know, you think that science would be a quest to find the truth or—or to explain the observations around us, but a lot of—of times, you know, Science Now is marketing. I mean, it really is. I mean, it's paid for—companies are going to benefit from this. You—you think about a lot of these academic institutions—a lot of their funding comes through industry, and—and they don't get funding if they don't get the results that they're—they're—they're getting paid for.

It's even more insidious than that because the people that are involved in the FDA eventually go and work for these corporations, which is so wild when you see that happen and you go, "Oh my God, there's a clear revolving door." It's not like shell corporations or some secret hidden money overseas—no, it's like right in front of your face—these people work for the government, they make these laws and they make these recommendations, and then they go on to get these incredible jobs where they get paid lucrative amounts of money.

Yeah, golden parachutes, right? It's crazy—it's—that—that's legal. It's not only—I mean, as you probably know, like the FDA—I mean, corporate capture—I mean, the FD—for new drug—for new drug—uh, approvals, it's like 65% of that budget comes from the pharmaceutical industry itself. So they're like—they're paying to regulate themselves, and so it's like wild. So it's kind of crazy. And USDA is not any different, you know, because we talk about our food stuff—I mean, these guys that go on to become, you know, exec—you know, uh, big people in the USDA often do the same thing—they'll go on these food companies and have—they'll have the same sort of situation.

So dirty business. Yeah, here's—I'll tell you—here's an interesting thing. So I've been trying—so like Harvard recently came out with a study—nonsense epidemiology—that red meat is contributing to diabetes—increase your risk for diabetes, right? Yeah, and this is a study done by Harvard—Walter Willett is—has been the chair—he's been vegetarian—he's been—he's been conflicted for years. But basically what they did was they said, "Well, we're going to count lasagna as red meat—we're going to count sandwiches as red meat—and the people that eat red meat are—they're overweight—they're smokers—we didn't really correct for that." So it's—but the headline is, "Red meat causes diabetes." Meanwhile, you got a study that, you know, that Harvard did a few years ago with David L. says, "Look, these people are eating nothing but red meat, and their diabetes is going away." How can those two things coexist? Well, what I'm trying to do is get an interventional study done, so I—you know, it's kind of interesting—CU—this is how far—what I think the—the problem is. So I went to something called the NCBA—this is the National Cattlemen's Beef Association—this is supposed to represent all the cattle producers in the United States, right? And there's something called the beef check off—you remember that—"Beef, it's what's for dinner"—you remember that thing? It was like Robert Mitchum back in '92, and then I think—uh, Sam Elliott—they got great voices, right?—"Beef, it's what's for dinner"—you know, that type of thing. This is what they're supposed to do. So they collect—that's part of the beef check off—like every time a cow moves in the United States—like if you're a cattle ranch and you sell your cow, you got to pay a dollar—if it goes to, you know, if it goes to Sol facil, it's got to pay a dollar—if it goes to a feed yard, it's got—got to pay a dollar. So this is—so every year—and there's like roughly—we slaughter about 34 million head of cattle every year in the United States—which, you know, interestingly, India slaughters more cattle than we do—which I didn't know that—but it's—they do.

Yeah, they have—they slaughter 38 million head of cattle every year. And you think about India—it's like they're all vegetarian and eating cows—they export most of that—but they have—they have the biggest—herd of cattle in the world—in India—there's 300 million head of cattle in India—that's insane. I thought—so United States—thought they're sacred—well, they are in some—in some parts of India, right? But they—they actually slaughter more cattle in—in India than we do in the United States, um, and they export most—a lot of it—there's something like Southern India—they still eat—they'll eat a little bit of beef. In fact, there's a lot of carnivores in India right now—it's kind of crazy. I—I did conferences in India, and it's just like, "Wow," it's kind of a growing movement down there. But back to the point—so—so we've got this beef check off system—so every cow—they pay a buck, right? And—and then—so at the end of the year, they collect 30, 40, $50 million a year—it's supposed to be to promote beef—like—"Beef, it's what's for dinner"—to do research and all that stuff. And so I—you know, the US Cattlemen's Association, which is—that represents the cattle producers, but the NCBA represents Cargill and Tyson and the packing things, and so there's a little conflict between—between that—um, but they have all the money. And I—and I went to those guys—to the beef check off—and I said, "Hey, look, we want to spend a little bit of money to do a study on beef versus diabetes because we know the results are going to be—the people are going to—they're going to go on an all-meat diet or a close to all-meat diet, and their diabetes is going to go away." It's simple, and it takes all the confusion out because whenever you do—you know, you hear all these dietary studies—it's like, "Oh, but he was eating hamburgers and french fries," and there's all this confounder—so it's like you can't really test it. I'm like, "The perfect way to test if meat is healthy or not is to just put them on a damn carnivore diet and see what happens"—it's the only way to test it. If you do an epidemiology study and you don't account for sugar—sugar—drink Coca-Cola—bread—pasta—lasagna—yeah, that's exactly—that's what Harvard did recently—they didn't account for sugar intake when they said beef causes diabetes—like, "You got to be kidding me—you're not even counting sugar"—that's so crazy, right? But they—but they get this published, and this is really bad science, you know. And guys like—uh, John Ioannidis, who's a—who's a—one of the most cited scientists in the world—has basically said all this epidemiology we're doing—we're just wasting money—it's not telling us anything—it's all garbage—but they keep doing it over and over again because they generate headlines—you know, the headlines I want. But anyway, back to this beef check off thing—so I—I—I said, "Hey, look, you know, every year you award money—you know, hundreds of th—you know, tens of millions of dollars to promote beef"—I said, "Let's get a little bit of money to do a research study on diabetes," and they literally said, "No, we're not interested in doing that." And I'm like, "You got to be kidding me"—the beef industry is taking a beating right now—you know, you—you listen to it—it's like—um, you know, everybody wants to get rid of beef—it's—there—the cow farts are boiling the oceans, and—uh, you know, it's going to kill you—it's going to give you cancer—which all of this is largely nonsense. And this is a—you know, in my view, this type of study would clearly—clearly demonstrate—um, that not only does beef not cause diabetes—in fact, I talked to the CEO of the NCBA two years ago—I sat down—I presented in front of the California Cattlemen's Association—and literally the president of the association stood up and said, "I went on a carnivore diet and cured my diabetes." It's like, "Yeah," it's clear. And the guy said, "Yeah, I get it—we're going to help you out—we're going to get this going." I didn't hear—I hear nothing from these guys. So what I think's going on is the USDA kind of oversees all these check offs, and they just kind of say, "Look, you can't say that because we want to promote"—you know, because again, they have all these processed food lobbies—Nabisco and PepsiCo sitting on the—you know, they're on the board—and they're like, "If we promote this one food and people stop eating all this processed food, right, then what are we going to do? We're going to lose a lot of money." You think about it—you know, not that I'm advocating that everybody go on a carnivore diet, 'cause I don't think that's—I don't think it's necessary, from, you know, for one, but if you significantly cut back on all the people consuming all this garbage, you know, what—what does that do economically to this country? I mean, you think about how much money is spent on garbage food—the drugs are needed to treat—on that—you're talking—I mean, we spent four—$4.3 trillion a year on—on healthcare in this country, and what do we get for it? We got one of the sickest populations in the world—our life expectancy is going down—everybody's fat—everybody's depressed—everybody's on drugs—you know, it's crazy.

It is crazy, and it's crazy that they don't look to diet as being the primary cause of that, or if they do, they look to these epidemiology studies that don't take into account exactly what you're eating with the meat—why is it meat—it's always demonized? Well, I think for a number of reasons—one, if you go back to like dietetics in the beginning—like back in 1917, the American Dietetics Association was formed—this was formed literally by Seventh-day Adventists—so from the very—very beginning, the creation of the nutrition science field—these Seventh-day Adventists who are, you know, religiously vegetarians—you know, you go back to like—uh, the Kellogg Brothers—you know, John Harvey Kellogg—where he's out there, you know, uh, circumcising females and saying, "We got—we can't eat meat because it's going to make you have sex and make you have lust and masturbate." This is all like—this religious stuff—and then it got—people don't know that, but they—they should know that—that he developed this cereal—this bland cereal to discourage masturbation—which is one of the wildest things I have ever heard.

Yeah, that guy was a wacko—man, he was—in there, dude—he was giving himself like high-pressure enemas every day—it was just like [ __ ]—20 gallons a minute enemas because he thought that—he was a wacko—he was a really nutty guy. You read about some of his 20-gallon enemas—it was some ridiculous—like super high capacity—like a super soaker on steroids thing—just—are enemas bad for you? 'Cause I've always wondered if your internal gut flora is important, and it is—isn't that getting washed out? I think to some degree it is—I don't know that anybody's really looked at it from that angle, but uh, I—you know, I—I think in some cases, like, you know, some people's got some problems with constipation—it could be helpful, but I don't think it's generally a healthy practice for most. I know there's people that are like—like putting weird stuff up their butt, man—it's just kind of—it's like—I think probably feels good—flushed out—it might—but also makes you see everything come out of you—I guess I've never done it, but apparently there's a tube and they look at—"Oh, look—here's your problems." Yeah, it's kind of like—these—there's this thing—these crazy vegans do where they—um, they—they consume like—uh, like this charcoal and this jelly and stuff—and they—this kind of goop mix—and then it kind of like fills up their intestines and they poop it all out—and they say that's—that's clearing out all my intestines—I can't remember what they call it, but it's like—there's these crazy—crazy videos where they're just pulling all this like gelatinous black stuff out of their butt—but it's like—you just ate all that stuff—that's what's coming out of you—it's not—"Look—all the toxins"—yeah, exactly—you just ate that stupid—you just ate the same stuff—people are obsessed with that term—like releasing the toxins—you know, they—they really think that that's what's happening—when you sweat—you get in the sauna—you're releasing the toxins—like when you're sweating—your body's regulating your heat temperature—yeah, that's what's going on—you know what clears your toxins—your [ __ ] liver—yeah, that's what that thing's for—yeah—liver—kidneys—yeah, we got a pretty good detox system for sure—you don't—you don't need all the smoothie—juice fast detoxes—you know, it's like—so many people are detoxing—when their teeth fall out—they're detoxing their teeth.

Well, the—the other thing is with—with the smoothie thing is—my God, you're getting so much sugar, and you're getting it in a weird form—yeah—if you're—eating fruit smoothies—you're getting—you're getting sugar in a very unnatural form—fruit juices—we—are—think that fruit juices are really good for you—most doctors would agree that fruit juices are very high in sugar—yeah, and they get it in that sort of liquid dose where it just goes right into your [ __ ] bloodstream and your liver—that's a lot of sugar, man. Well, you think about—because Joe, you like—you're out hunting all the time, and you know—you go—when you go out and you're like—"If I had to get food out here—what would I—what would I have available to—to—to eat"—I can tell you what you wouldn't—you wouldn't have all this processed food—but particularly like—like powder—you know, like we make powdered sugar—we make powdered flour—and we—we—we combine them together—but we've changed the nature of the food so much that—it's interesting—you know, I saw Darius Zafeiriou, who's a researcher at Tufts—he's a guy to put out the study that says—uh, or it's part of the study that said, "You know, like—uh, Lucky Charms are healthier than—than eggs"—you saw that last year—that's total BS, right? Hilarious. But one thing he did point out was that like over the last 20 years or so—we haven't really been eating much more calories than we were—like from the 1960s to about 2000—we ate more calories, and maybe that explains why everybody got fat—but since that time, we really haven't eaten much more—but we've eaten so much more ultra-processed food—and in fact, right now, the US diet is close to 70% ultra-processed—which—you think about that—that's like crazy—and our kids are getting fat—but one thing that's interesting is like—you—'cause you're talking about the microbiome, right?—or our gut flora—um, when you eat like whole food, you know, it goes farther down your digestive tract—and then, you know, our microbiome actually consumes some—up to—up to 22% of our calories can be consumed by our—by our microbiome—but when you're just eating sugar, it goes straight in—you—so those calories—your gut microbiome doesn't get any of that—so you're—you're—it's like you're absorbing more calories—so just by changing the quality of the food—you're changing how many calories you absorb—and that is what some people say is part of what leads to this obesity thing—but we know—like, for instance—well, here—here's another thing—the USDA came out with a study—like, I know three months ago—"91% processed food diet is healthy"—you know, this—this is what they're pushing—trying to—trying to get us—because they're trying to position us to say—this study—this was the USDA put it out—it was probably—I think it was the NOVA study—I think I've got—I might have that on there, Jamie—but—um, it's—um—it's basically because there's—there're starting to be backlashes against ultra-processed foods—I mean, like South America is starting to ban the stuff—which I think, you know, I'm not—I'm not for banning food—I mean, I think that gets into, you know, freedom of choice and things like that—so you shouldn't—just like you can still smoke if you want to—you know, it's not the best for you—so you don't want to do that—but at the same point, you know, they're saying like—this stuff is—there's a lot of backlash—like people like myself and probably you and others just saying, "Look, this ultra-processed garbage is literally killing us—it's making us crazy—it's making us depressed"—all these people with mental health disorders—uh, a lot of that—nutrition is part of that—and we can talk about that—but you know what they're seeing is there's a backlash against that—yeah—so that's a NOVA—NOVA dietary guidelines—meet NOVA—developing a menu for a healthy dietary pattern using ultra-processed food—so they're basically saying—"Hey, how do we make people eat more processed food and make it quote-unquote healthy"—and they showed that they can make a diet that's like 91% ultra-processed foods and still be quote-unquote healthy—look what it says here—it says—"The purpose of this proof-of-concept study was to determine the feasibility of building a menu that aligns with the recommendations for a healthy dietary pattern from the 2020 DGA and includes over 80%—what is that—kcil—calories—kilocalories—from UPF—ultra-processed foods as defined by NOVA"—designed to accomplish this objective—we first developed a list of foods that fit NOVA criteria for UPF—ultra-processed foods—fit within a dietary pattern in the 2020 DGA and are commonly consumed by Americans—we then use these foods to develop a set—was it—what is that—7-day—what does that mean—7-day—7-day—7-day—7-day—2,000 kilocalorie menu modeled on the MyPyramid sample menus and assess this menu for nutrient content as well as for diet—diet quality using the Healthy Eating Index—the results—in the ultra-processed DGA menu—uh, that was created—91% of the kilocalories were from ultra-processed food or NOVA category 4—the HEI 2015 score was 86 out of a possible 100 points—the sample menu did not achieve a perfect score due primarily to excess sodium and an insufficient amount of whole grains—this menu provided adequate amounts of all macro and micronutrients except vitamin D, vitamin E, and choline—conclusions—healthy dietary patterns can include most of their energy from ultra-processed foods—still receive a high diet quality score and contain adequate amounts of most macro and micronutrients"—boy—right? So remember—USDA—the guys that go there—they leave USDA and they go sit on—on the board of directors at Nabisco and PepsiCo—and so this is really—I think what this is—it's positioning us—it's positioning us as a society to accept that ultra-processed foods are our food—it's—it's—it's really human pet food—I mean, you see what happens to our pets—yes—and—and everybody's fat—so we're going to still eat—we're going to say—"Well, it's still okay—if it's okay if you eat your—you know, your human dog chow or your human chow—just keep—keep doing that—don't ask questions"—and oh, by the way—"Here's an Ozempic shot or semaglutide shot"—will—semaglutide shot will give you—to—to kind of keep you chilled out—so it's really—I mean, it's—it's—it's almost sinister in a way—it's very bizarre—it's very bizarre that this isn't challenged—and that shows you how captured our food industry really is—the fact that that's not challenged—the fact that our health guidelines aren't set on—"Hey, what you should be eating is what human beings are designed to eat in nature"—yeah—well, I mean—is real food—I mean, I—you know—my opinion on dietary guidelines—because we have a USDA that meets every five years—and by the way—so USDA dietary guidelines—found—did you see—there's a physician from—from Harvard named—uh—Fatima Stamford, right?—and she went on 60 Minutes and said—"Obesity has nothing to do with diet—it has nothing to do with exercise—it's all gene disease and genetic—and there's nothing you can literally do"—and—really—and she's also sponsored by Novo Nordisk who makes Ozempic, right?—and she's on there—she's also a member of the US Dietary Guidelines panel—so 95% of the people that sit on the US Dietary Guidelines panel today for this next one where they're going to come up for 2025 guidelines—all have financial ties to processed food companies—which—I mean, you think about it—it's just like—this is crazy—so—so wild. So if you go to like Brazil—like Brazil's dietary guidelines—at least the ones they released a few years ago—it was like—"Here's what you should do—um—cook at home—don't eat processed foods—and—and eat with people around that—that you love"—and that—that's their—literally—that is their recommendation—which I think is better than our guidelines—because, you know, I mean, if left to our own—you know, I mean, we are now being told—we got to eat all this garbage—and it's just making us—it's just making us sick—it's crazy. And I think, you know, like—you know, I mean, it's like—this is the most—can you remember a time—'cause you and I grew up the same time—we like—I turned 50 in 6 weeks—so we grew up the same time—back when we were kids—I mean, it's like—when we were kids—we all watched the same [ __ ] shows—'cause there was nothing else on, right?—there was—what—CBS—ABC—NBC—and maybe like PBS, right?—and maybe a local news station—that's all you had—so we're all watching Gilligan's Island and The Brady Bunch and Dukes of Hazzard and Charlie's Angels and stuff like that—and everybody had the same thing—but now it's so fractionating—everybody's divided—I mean, I don't—if I can't remember a time when this country has been more divided—I mean, can you? I mean—it's just like—every single issue—Palestine—Israel—uh, you know—co-shot—not shot—um—climate change—no climate change—it's like—everything's a war—it's like crazy—but I think part of that is—I mean, I don't think half people's brains work anymore—I mean, because we're just so nutrient deprived—I think that's really true—and it sounds crazy to say—because people—"Oh, that's not it—no—it's social media—it's this—"

I think the mental health aspects of social media, which are significant, are real mental health issues involved in these posts and commenting and seeking things that outrage you. I think it's exacerbated by people's poor physical health. Oh sure, sure, it's, it's, you know, like I'm going to go back to mental health a little bit. So there is another guy at Harvard, name is Dr. Chris Palmer; he's a good dude. He's like an Indiana country boy, but he's at Harvard, and he just wrote a book called *Brain Energy*, where he talks about how nutrition and metabolism significantly affect mental health disorders. And you know, we've got something like 25% of Americans are on a drug for mental health, which is insane. I mean, it's like, how the hell do we, do we make it through millions of years as a species, you know, or hundreds of thousands of years rather? But what they've shown in one study, they showed that, you know, they took like, uh, 30 people that were impatient, like psychotic, I mean schizophrenia, manic bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, and they changed their diet. They put them on a, you know, Clean Diet, you know, kind of a lower carb diet, and all of them, every single one of them saw significant improvement in their mental health. And so, but you know what do we do now? You know, if you go to like rehab, drug rehab, or you put somebody in an institution, they just feed them garbage, and they just keep them perpetuating this horrible…

Go to hospital. Yeah, the hospitals are horrible. Hospital food is terrible; they give you garbage, they give you little [ __ ] things, applesauce and cheeseburgers. Yeah, like pancakes with syrup and orange juice and some Jell-O, like the crappy Jell-O that they… yeah, it's all bad for you. You don't get grass-fed steak. No, not at all. No, it's fiber. This is, this is another thing that always comes up when, when I tell people that I eat only meat: What about fiber? Yeah, yeah. So that's a, that's a good, that's a good topic. And, and so what I would say is fiber is conditionally beneficial. So if you're eating a standard diet, yeah, you're going to need… if you put fiber… fiber really is a marker for diet quality, right? So if I'm, if I'm some poor guy and I'm eating potato chips and cookies, I don't get a lot of fiber. If I got a little more money, I'm probably buying the fruits and vegetables, probably out of guilt, but it, but it generally represents higher socioeconomic status, better overall diet quality, and, and I think it's beneficial in that situation. But if you go like, is it providing anything that I can't get from meat? So there was a study that, uh, a guy named Tommy Wood and the other researcher, Maor—I can't remember her first name—is female; they did a study looking at, um, what happens to the microbiome, because we're always hearing, oh, you need fiber to feed your microbiome, right? You need those short-chain fatty acids, you need the, uh, the butyrate or the butic acid. Well, they looked at that and they said, look, the gut has… our gut has incredible metabolic flexibility, and so even in the absence of fiber, you can get the same short-trained fatty acids from protein; you can get it from being in a low-carb state where you have, you know, more ketones being produced, because, you know, the main ketone in our blood is called beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is very similar to butyric acid; it's only one, you know, hydroxy molecule away. It reverses all the time. So they, at that… that, you know, we don't need fiber for that particular aspect. And the other thing, there was a recent study… CU… I see what I see is so many autoimmune conditions, you know, you know, like I know you've talked to Jordan and Michaela, and you know, you've seen these crazy autoimmune conditions, which I've seen in the thousands now; it's crazy, like Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, eczema, asthma, uh, you know, anything… that there was a study looking at fiber actually exacerbating problems with rheumatoid arthritis because of its interaction with a particular bacteria called *Pratella copri*, I think, or something like that. And so we're seeing… yeah, so high-fiber diet synergizes and exacerbates rheumatoid arthritis. So basically, you know, it's showing that, yeah, I mean, there's, there can be problems with fiber for a lot of people, particularly if they have these issues. And so, so when people say that fiber is beneficial, what they essentially, essentially saying is that if you have a poor diet, if you have a diet that's rich in ultra-processed food and garbage, fiber would be beneficial to you because it would help… what does it do? It helps… I think it's, I think it's displacing the garbage off the plate, right? So if you, if you load your plate up with fruits and vegetables, which I think generally… I'm not a guy that says vegetables are trying to kill you, and… and nobody… I know there's other people… it's kind of funny, the car… you talk about cults, and Carnivore kind of become a cult, right? And it's not because of me. I'm like, I tell people, hey, we're omnivores; this is a therapeutic protocol; use it for as long as you… if you want to do it for a lifestyle, have at it; it's fine. I'm not going to… but I'm, but, but what I think was happening with fiber in a lot of ways, and because this fiber goes back to… oh, what's the researcher's name? I'm blanking on his name; he had a cancer named after him, but anyway, from the 1920s, 1930s, goes to Uganda in Africa and notices like, oh, these people aren't fat and sick like they are in England. And, uh, Burkitt… Dennis Burkitt is the guy's name—and he says, well, oh, they're eating a lot of fiber, but they weren't also… they weren't eating a lot of sugar, and they weren't eating a lot of garbage like they were in the UK, because sugar's been around since about the 1600s, and, and progressively has increased. I mean, the US right now, it's kind of interesting, like compared to like the early 1800s, the average kid by the age of something like eight has eaten more sugar than they would have in a lifetime back, you know, 150 years ago. So it's kind of crazy. By the time they're eight… by the time they're eight years old, the average eight-year-old has eaten more sugar than somebody would have eaten in their entire life, you know? And that's just the normal kids. You… you see some of these kids are just like… I mean, I got Jamie… I got a picture… I got to show you; this is so incredible. Jamie… there's a, there's a gal, before-and-after picture. We got this food addiction stuff, so I interviewed a gal; she was 800 lb. Right? It's like, how do, how do you get to 800 lb? It's like impossible. Like, I could… I don't think I could do it if I tried, right? I mean, I don't… you know… food addict… couldn't stop eating chocolate and ice cream and all that stuff. And this is her… she's 8… almost 800 lb, 350 kilos, which is the most I've ever deadlifted, so that's, that's kind of an interesting weight. But 22 months, she goes on Carnivore, right? I interviewed her a while back, and she's now lost almost 500 lb on Carnivore when nothing else would work for her. I mean, she literally… I mean, she told me it was like, I finally found the off switch. She tried Weight Watchers, she tried like gastric bypass surgery, she tried vegan diet, she tried juicing, she tried weight loss, she tried every single thing you could think of, but could never stop… stop. And finally, for the first time in her life, she's like, I finally found freedom from this food addiction. And you know, recent studies show that, uh, that other guy in the hat… this is a funny guy… this guy in the hat, right there, his name is… what's his name? I'm blanking on his… Todd… he's a dude out in Montana, right? He was 770 lbs, right? Same sort of situation; started drinking Cokes when he was… he… when he was 14 years old. I'm doing an interview, and he… he goes, yeah, you know, I didn't… I didn't know who he was, and he starts… goes, yeah, I was 14, I was 600 lb. I'm like, what? 600 lb at 14? It's like, how the hell can you get to 600 lb? You know, their poor family, and his mom and sister and everybody in the family was, you know, very obese, and they had tried gastric bypass, and it didn't work for them. But same thing with this kid, I mean, he's just like… I call him a kid; he's 40. He went Carnivore, and for the first time in his life, he's like, I don't need the sugar, and I don't need the Coke. He was drinking like 20 Cokes a day or some ridiculous stuff, and he just blew up and blew up, and he could not stop until… and this is why… one of the reasons I think… I think they know this. I mean, the food industry knows they're making addictive food; they clearly know that. In fact, I had a gal who worked for one of the major food manufacturer companies, and her job… she was… she was a chemist, uh, and her job was to design food to be as addictive as possible, and she literally told me that. She goes, I can no longer live with the guilt, and I want to come work for you guys. And you know, she was just so… just beside herself. She says she realizes what she's created with this epidemic of disease and suffering, I mean, because these people are suffering… Did you see that movie *The Whale*? Did you ever see that movie?

I did not. It's good; it's an interesting movie. So it's… you… Brandon Fraser, and he… it's like a 700-lb dude. It shows he lives in his cou… he lives in his recliner; he can barely get up; he can barely go to the bathroom; refrigerator next to him, and his whole life is in… and this guy did the same thing; said he spent like… he said he went… he fasted one time for 40 days trying to lose weight, just… and he never left his chair; he just sat there for 40 days and didn't eat. Wow. Can you imagine? That's like hell… that's like hell on Earth, you know? But now he's like… now he's going back to work; he's getting out in the field, and he's working, doing like electrical work or something like that. But I mean, it's just the sugar… in one way, you know, I know there's people out there saying, listen, not sugar's fine; it's all seed oils and stuff like that. But I think clearly there are people that are addicted to either sugar or sugary foods, you know? It's like, you know… cuz you… like would you eat chocolate if there's no sugar in it? I mean, it's like, you know, that 100% dark is kind of like… have you tried it? Have you? It's kind of gross. It is. It's like the only reason you eat that stuff because the sugar's in there. So people say, well, no one's… no one's mainlining bags of sugar. But I mean, actually, I know people that have actually done that. I mean, it's kind of crazy. You figure… you see these people that are so addicted to this stuff, but they mainline… well, I mean… well, I mean, they just eat it out of the bag, you know? It's kind of like… they're not sho… they're not like heroin addicts, but I mean, they're… they're like, you know… cuz there… there are people that say they'll do that if they can't get anything else, and you just eat a bag of sugar… they'll see… they'll sit down… well, there's the lethal dose for sugar is about like 5 lbs. If you like sat down and ate a 5-lb bag of sugar, it would kill you; it would literally cause you… going to liver failure. So there is like an LD50 on sugar. So it is… over what time period? Just like… whatever… maybe a day or something like that, you know? If you just sat down and ate… you know… and some of these people… you see some of these… have you seen like, uh, they call them fat fluenc… like these body-positive… I mean, it's, you know, influencers, but they're fat, right? And they're… and they're literally out there, and the processed food companies actually pay these guys, right? They do. Oh yeah, it's the same thing. They… they… they're getting kickbacks to promote all this unhealthy behavior and unhealthy food, and they're going through… what I eat in a day… and it's like, you know… you know everything… it's like Doritos and cookies and Cokes and all the garbage that they're… they're… they're chowing down on. And you know, we got this whole… the body-positivity movement is being funded by the processed food industry. I mean, if you didn't know that, I mean, it's like… they're… they've clearly shown, directly… directly they're paying these people to do this. The other thing, processed food companies… they're paying diet… on social media also to recommend processed foods. So it's… it's just like… it's… it's… I mean, it's… it's clearly corrupt. I… it's so dirty; it's such a dirty… but it's like a war against your health, and they're the enemy; they're the propagandists. Well, and then they want… I mean, you've seen this stuff, like… like, you know, they come off to you; they say, oh, he's a racist or he's a right-wing fascist or something like… because… because you're like, I don't want to be sick and fat, you know? That's what they come out and say. It's… it's, you know… there was… there some article like, you know, working out is a right-wing conspiracy. Do you see that?

Yes. It's wild. It's wild, cuz some people read that, and people that are like extremely averse to being labeled right-wing or being labeled racist or xenophobic or whatever it is, they're… they're terrified of those labels; they don't… they don't want that smoke. And so they see these things, and it does affect the way they view the world, as ridiculous as it sounds. And maybe one article won't do it, but if you see enough of them over time, you will associate that activity with some sort of problematic label that could be put on you, which is incredible that we're so easily influenced… some of us. Yeah, I mean, it's… you know… I saw like… uh… I know you had Elon… on… Elon Musk on several times. I know he said like, look, I was a middle-of-the-road dude, and that's me too. I was like, I'm just kind of middle… let people live; I'm not political one way or the other. And all of a sudden, the whole spectrum just shifts way over, and it's like, if you're not promoting like craziness, you're all of a sudden this racist, crazy person. I've always been left-wing, which is really crazy, but the left moves so far away from what the left used to be, and now you're… now you're a fascist. Now I'm an alt-right influencer. Yeah, I've… I've seen people label me as an alt-right person. I'm like, that is so wild that they can do that with a straight face, because I've always… I've… I've said, hey, maybe we should look into Universal Basic Income; maybe we should look into Universal Healthcare; I think education should be free; you know, I think we should subsidize the schools, and we should fix the roads, and we should [ __ ] fix inner city, and we should… if you're going to use tax dollars, that's that. And if I thought my tax dollars were being used very appropriately in that way, I'd be 100% in favor of all that stuff if I thought it really was an overall benefit to society. The problem is bureaucracy and big government is insanely inefficient. Like if you were talking about… if there was some sort of, uh, Private Industry, and the Private Industry only profited if something was successful, and they got involved in these particular activities, if they got involved in education, if they got involved in dietary health, and the only way they were profitable is if their methods were effective, because there's a free market, that would probably work. But when you get the government involved, all it does is make the government employees more wealthy; it makes the government larger, and it makes them protect that industry. We covered that with the homeless thing in, in California. If you're not aware, there's people that are working on the homeless; there's like a shitload of them, and some of them… they're making a quarter-million dollars a year, and they are not putting a [ __ ] dent in it; they're not effective at all. In fact, the only thing that I saw that was effective at all in stopping the tents and the homeless situation was when Xi Jinping visited San Francisco; they [ __ ] cleaned it up like that. Like you could have done this the whole time. What do they do to those people? Where do they put those people, you think?

I don't know. But what are they going to do now, now that Xi is gone? Are they going to like take down the fences and let people camp again? Like you showed that the overall quality of life of the people that live in that city is not important to you; what's important is the view… the optics when a [ __ ] dictator comes and visits, which is so wild. Yeah, I saw… you know… the governor, Gavin Newsom… do you think he's… I think he's gonna run. I think… I… I'm just… you know… I try not to get political, but I'm just like… what's going to happen in the next election? I mean, are… is Biden even going to be able to run? I think at this point they kind of have to run him unless he dies. I don't… we don't have… we have one year now; we're in November; we're in late November; we have less than a year. Like what… how… what are they going to do? I mean, you could look… if Biden died tomorrow, and then what do they do with Kamala Harris? They're going to put her on the moon. Like what are they gonna do? She's the vice president, so if he dies, she becomes the president, which is [ __ ] wild when you hear that lady talk. What if… what if… what if, like Biden says… like in, I don't know, May… he says, you know, I'm… I'm just not feeling up to it, and then… and then they say Kamala is now the president; she's the first female president, and then she steps down at the convention and they say, let's give it to… to Newsom. I mean, you think that's a plausible scenario? It's possible, but it would be a real problem for people that are Kamala Harris supporters, and believe it or not, they exist. Yeah, but I mean… how… I mean, I'm sure that… I'm sure the Democratic Party is just like calculating… how big is this, and what's… what's the thing? I think they have [ __ ] no cards, and they're looking at this… this game, and I don't know. I think they're depending upon party loyalty, and they're depending upon Trump getting convicted and arrested, I mean… and, um, imprisoned rather. I don't know if that's going to happen; I don't think it is. It doesn't seem to… it seems like it's a bunch of trumped-up charges; no pun intended. Yeah, I mean, I just… again, I… I… I'm not a political commentary; I'm not exp… but it does seem like really… like why are they going after him so hard right now when they could have done it, you know, like the… the… the whatever the hotel thing or the valuation of the property from 20 years ago? It's bananas. The valuation of the property is so obviously off what it should be. $18 million from Mar-a-Lago. I'd [ __ ] buy it. I'd [ __ ] buy it immediately if that [ __ ] was $18 million, and you were the only one that was able to buy it; you'd be a fool not to scoop it up because you could sell it right away. You get a loan, and you can sell that [ __ ] right away for who knows how much. I mean, I think Forbes valued it… I think it was like… well over 700 million, and Trump thinks it's worth over a billion, and he might be right. That's what's crazy. It's a giant piece of property in one of the most valuable pieces of land in all of America. I mean, a house next to him down the street, a much smaller place, sold for 50… yeah. So it doesn't make sense; it doesn't make… it does make sense if you… if you want to look at banana public republic tax… I mean, when you're imprisoning and, and trying to convict your political opponents, which is… the problem with that is even if you think Donald Trump is a crook, even if you think that he should be arrested, this sets a precedent for future presidents. If we get someone who is not just Donald Trump, who has a lot of people in the center that say, hey, his economic policies were effective, his foreign policies were effective, even if I think he's a jerk, maybe that would be better to have a jerk run the country in a way that's better overall than what's being done right now. Even if you looked at that… what if someone further right than him steps in? What if war breaks out? What if things get even crazier? What if nationalism really upticks? Then you have someone who is now in power that is far right, like has happened all over the world. If that happens, and that person… if that precedent has been set for prosecuting your political opponents and going after them with trumped-up charges, we have a horrible situation. And that's one of the reasons why we have to stick with the rule of law; we have to stick with the… the way this country was founded on these princip… were set up because they wanted to mitigate corruption at its base level, at every step of the way; they wanted to stretch it out so no one could be an authoritarian dictator and run America. Yeah, because you talk about the backlash because… you saw like, right recently in Argentina, you know… gu… there's a Libertarian one, and then just in the Netherlands, which is kind of interesting because they were like… in the Netherlands, they're trying to get rid of cows; they're like, oh, these cows are farting; they're killing the atmosphere, and the farmers were like, we don't like this. And so they had this, I guess, this PVV or PPV party, Freedom Party, and they… they won that by a landslide. And so… and you saw in Italy, Meloni takes over. So you've got this… I think backlash coming back. It depends how… how far does a pendulum swing back the other way? And you kind of like… I don't know. I mean, day-to-day to me, it doesn't really affect me that much because I'm… I'm not like a political crazy person, but I'm just like… how does it affect my day-to-day stuff? I mean, a little bit of the COVID stuff, I was a little annoyed by that. I don't… I know I was very annoyed by… I don't know… you know… I was… I just spoke in a conference in Florida, and I had… I had Robert Malone sitting next to me in the… in the car when he was going out there. I just kind of saw some of the craziness there, and I know that's a… that's a really sensitive issue, but… um… it's sensitive, but it shouldn't be; it… it should be sensitive the other way. You should… everyone at this point in time should realize that we got hoodwinked. Yeah, everyone should realize that it was an overall net negative for children that got kept out of schools, masks, all… all the [ __ ] that we saw that went on. Forget about just the vaccines, the lockdowns, just what they did… the closing of businesses… the essential businesses that they had big chains labeled as essential, but these small mom-and-pop stores were forced to go under. People had worked their whole lives to develop these businesses, and they took them away from them, and it's [ __ ] up. And the fact that no one is outraged still, and that this narrative has been allowed to be portrayed through the… the mass media that this isn't a major problem, and that this cannot happen again… like this is [ __ ] madness, man. Yeah, it's like… you… like see the shirt I'm wearing here? This is from my Jiu-Jitsu coach; this guy's name is Greg Anderson. He was a… he was a… I know that dude; follow him on Instagram; he's a good guy. So he… uh… Special Forces or Special Operations rather, Army Ranger, 15… 145 tours overseas, comes back as a Seattle cop, and during the pandemic, and they were like, hey, you need to go arrest this lady for doing people's nails at her home, and he's like, I'm not doing that. This…

Is total [ __ ] right, and he and he and he made a video, and it went viral. Yeah, and the cops, the Seattle Police commissioner, said, "Hey Greg, we agree in principle with what you're saying, but you've got to take down the video." Like, we, we, and he just said, "No [ __ ] you, I'm not going to do it." So they fired him. And so he got like, like a GoFundMe page, and he raised much money, and he opened a Jiu-Jitsu studio in a CrossFit gym. He's like, "I make more money now as a Jiu-Jitsu guy than I ever did as a cop." So he's great online too; he's very wise; he's he's a, and he he always beats my ass whenever I roll against him. He always armbar that [ __ ] man. This is like, this is like, I try one time, one round; I got to like within 2 seconds of the round ending. He didn't got me, and he got me in the last second. So it's kind of like, "Well, that's the process."

Yeah, exactly. I mean, one day you'll be doing that to people. Stay hopeful that's what the stem cells were for today. Ex, and appreciate that. Was I guess we may chat about that. So you've been doing stem cells for for a while, right, Jo?

Oh, I've cured some really serious injuries with stem cells. Yeah, that that I was told needed surgery. Yeah, that's that's that's the interesting thing. CU, I'm an orthopedic surgeon, right? I operate; I replace knees and hips and shoulders and all that stuff over the years, and the orthopedic surgery Orthopedic, you know, academy, uh, says stem cells don't really work. And so but the question is, is it because, again, there's a conflict of interest here because if you're not getting surgery because you're getting stem cells, I'm losing out on, you know, shoulder arthroscopy money, right? So I mean, there's a little bit of conflict of interest there. So I go into it with a little bit of skepticism, but I'm open-minded, and we'll see. Like I said, if I, you know, if I notice because I want to get back to rolling. I mean, the key is you have to not roll for quite a while. Yeah, you have to really let that thing heal.

Well, what I'm planning on, you know, like I said, I'm like I got one of those iron neck deals. You're a fan of that? I talked to the guy, Robert, I think is the the, you know, the head of that company, and it's pretty cool. I was doing it in the hotel room this morning, but I mean, it was just like I want to because I got a long neck. I don't know if you can tell, I got a pretty long neck. I'm pretty big, strong guy, but my neck is an area where I didn't really like spend a lot of time developing because I, I mean, when I played rugby, I did I do some neck bridges and wrestlers bridges and like you neck bridge and start bench pressing with the weight on there, but I hadn't done that in years, you know, cuz I just like so then know when I got into Jitsu and I've been do you know two two years into it basically, and then I just got dumped, man. I was just like, you know, we're talking about that. I just got landed on my head, dropped on my head, and flexed under me on my way cuz I'm about 250, 260, and the other guy was like, I don't know, 220, and it was just like that combined weight, it was just like a lot of weight.

Yeah, so it's one thing. So necks are a real problem. John Jo Machado always said, "Never trust your neck."

Yeah, yeah. So so my goal is to make it as strong and as flexible and as bulletproof as possible before I go back, you know, CU. I may go back to just doing some like drilling and stuff like that, but not the actual live rounds for a while. But um, yeah, you just have to avoid aggravating it while it happens. My buddy Shane Dorian, who's a big wave surfer, he just went down to the CPI in, uh, Tijuana, and they could do some wild [ __ ] down there, and they they inject because that's part of the problem with it not being completely approved by the FDA is they're limiting their applications. So but in Mexico, they're not. And so they've had tremendous results, and they inject directly into the discs. They put you under under anesthesia; they inject you directly in the discs, and they told them, "Don't I want you doing anything for eight weeks, nothing. Yeah, you're walking; that's it. No, no nothing straining." That's hard to do, man. It's hard to do, but it's it's important. It's so hard for guys like you and I that work out all the time, but it's so important. And one of the things that I realized I was getting, uh, a lot of stem cells in my left knee in particular. I had a torn, uh, MCL, and I just wasn't letting it heal properly. I would I would get the stem cells, and then four weeks later I'd go back to Muay Thai, and I'd be smashing the bag and kicking the pads, then my knee would swell up again. I was like [ __ ], and I was thinking, "God damn it, I don't want to get surgery," and then I would go back again, get more stem cells, do it again, and then I finally got the stem cells, and I said, "Okay, I am going to take a year off of kicking," and I didn't do any kicking at all for a year. Now it's back to full strength; I have no problems with it. I'm slamming the bag, no problems. It doesn't it's still I'm missing meniscus in there cuz I had it scoped in 2003, I believe it was, and so there's a chunk of I had a bucket handle tear; it was a real problem; it was a nasty meniscus tear that I had, so they removed some meniscus, which can contribute to arthritis if you're not careful, but um, it just gets a little sore sometimes, but the structure is not it's not a problem at all anymore. And I did a lot of that knees over toes stuff, you know, that guy, that guy's amazing.

Yeah, he's amazing, and I love that he puts all that information out there for everybody. He just lets you know for free; he shows his mom doing it; he shows how he had all these knee surgeries and all these problems, and now he can dunk; he can run; he can sprint; do all these different things. So I started incorporating all those knees over toes things, the Nordic curls, the Tib bar raises. My knees are significantly stronger than they've been in years. Yeah, I do some of the backwards stuff that he does. I've got a h I've got a hill at my house; it's about 8. You still doing right Hill Sprints, Joe? You still do that?

No, I haven't done those, but I do a lot of sled work. I do a lot of pushing the sled, and I still run a little bit. Um, I do, uh, I I have one of those, um, uh, treadmills that is self-propelled.

Yeah, like an AR one.

Yes, those are great. Those are great. I've got one; I've got one in the garage cuz you're on the ball of your foot; it's, you know, it's fairly cushioned, and it that doesn't irritate me at all. Yeah, it's supposed to sort of I guess provide better feedback for better correct running technique. I like the assault air Runner is one I've got at home.

Yeah, I think that's what I have too, and it's uh supposedly like I think it's 13% more difficult than running regularly.

Yeah, I've heard it's a little harder.

Yeah, yeah. So it's nice, so it gives you real good cardiovascular benefits, and it doesn't hurt my knees, and it doesn't [ __ ] with you. Run, do you run sprints, or do you what do you kind of run?

I mostly just do distance, you know, I'll do like, you know, time and keep my my heart rate at, you know, in the high 140s something like that. What percentage of like when you say because you're doing what percentage of your training is Jiu-Jitsu versus striking or grappling versus striking? You I haven't been doing much grappling lately, so I've been doing more striking than that, but it was mostly because of my knee because I just wanted to give it time off, and now that it's better, and then I was going through elanti season and elcon season, I didn't want to [ __ ] anything up because, you know, when you Elon, you have to, you know, you're doing 10, 12 miles a day, and you're doing it in the mountains. So most of my work was I was doing rocking; I was doing do a lot of farmers carries; I was doing elevated treadmill with weight on my back; I was doing a lot of things like that that is just designed StairMaster; I was doing all the different knees over toes stuff, box steps, all these different things just specifically to condition my legs for the mountains, and I didn't want to [ __ ] my knees up on, but that's over, so now I can go back to jiu jit.

Got it. I was just wondering like, you know, cuz you cuz you got a black belt, you've been doing it for what 30 years or something?

Forever.

Forever. Yeah, so you kind of like you figure out like I'm still in learning face. I'm like the biggest problem for me is like I can't get in as enough as I want to to to hit that learning curve, and so I'm just like the big thing is drilling.

Yeah, drilling is everything, and everybody loves to roll cuz it's so fun.

Exactly, it's so fun, but really drilling and live drills, you know, like, you know, you and especially if you get good training partners. Good training partners are everything, someone who gives you like 50%, 60% resistance, and then you go through a pass phase, you know, you go through a guard pass phase, or you go through a back mount pH, you know, whatever your routine is that you do. Just [ __ ] do that over and over and over and over again. I made my biggest leaps when I was a blue belt because, uh, I'm good friends with Eddie Bravo, and he and I would drill twice a week. We would just get together and nothing but drill, nothing but drill, and it made massive leaps in my improvement because I was conditioned to hit those my my my body knew what just like tying. He he would describe it like tying your shoelace. You don't even think about H your shoelace, right? You get it once you know how to do it, and you're you just it just does that. You want that with your Jiu-Jitsu techniques, and the way to get that with Yu Jiu-Jitsu techniques is to drill, just drill over and over and over again.

Then practice on white belts.

Yeah, that's I because I find like, well, you know, you because I'm still white Bel I mean because I just I didn't I don't go as much, but I mean it's just like when I go another white Bel, it's like it's like war, man. It's just like you want to kill each other, right?

Right. You got to learn how to be playful. That's what the Gracies always say. Keep playful. I I try to play like I have my better roles with the with the higher belts like the black belts, I mean, cuz they know like they can dial it back in there, you know, it's just kind of like they they kind of let you work a little bit, so that's really, and I always but I always try to get the harder ones because I'm like, you know, I'm like I'm big guy, and I like, you know, that's a problem two is that you're so big, you know, when big guys it's hard for them to learn. That's like a big guy that has a guard is so [ __ ] dangerous. That's why Fabo verom was so dangerous because he was a heavyweight, a giant guy who had a lethal guard. CU, it's so rare cuz big guys can just get on top; they get on top and smash the smaller people, and that's fun, and so they do that more often than not, and it's very rare that you get a big guy that has really sharp sharp technique. Most people say the best Jiu-Jitsu to learn is learn Jiu-Jitsu from a smaller person; you learn Jiu-Jitsu from, you know, like one of the Mendes brothers or hoer Gracie or someone who's a smaller person physically, Marcelo Garcia. So their technique is just sharp; has to be; has to be. You you there's no options; you can't muscle your way around things. You how many times have you been caught in an arm bar you could just [ __ ] yank your arm out?

Yeah, it's a white belt putting on. I usually get out; us usually I like it cuz then I'm like I'm going to get out and land on you. It's like but if it's somebody good like Greg, I'm F you know, there was a period where I was kind of figuring I was like pushing his lower leg down and catching between my legs, and I was doing that for a while, and I was kind of defeating him a little bit, then he then he of course figured that out, and yeah, still armar me anyway, but that's what know black belt's all about. How much does he weigh? He Craig's he's 200ish something like that, so decent size, you know, decent size, but you have a significant I'm usually like I'm I'm like 260 right now; usually I'm about 250. I'm a little fat right now, but you got to learn how to not use that. So counterintuitive. Well, what he says is, "Use it when you need it." I mean, there's times when strength is important, and you don't want to it's like it's like telling a fast guy, "Don't be fast." I mean, it's like you want to use what you have to some degree, but that's in competition what you're with what learning and training is supposed to be about is drilling those techniques into your central nervous system, drilling those techniques into your mind and your body so that when the opportunity arises like when you hit an arm drag, your body immediately knows what to do; it's just instantaneous. It's not like, "Oh, okay, I got the elbow, and I pull now what?" It's just just I mean it makes total sense because it's like, you know, like it was kind of funny before I hurt my neck. I got all these Dana hair videos. I'm like watching like, "Oh, yeah," cuz John is like he's funny. I mean, it's just like you listen to talking on his videos and'll just say something off the wall. It's like, "Oh, yeah," it's like when you're at the if you're hanging out at the strip joint last night. I'm like, "What?" You know, he throws these funny things in there, and he's such a good explain, you know, he's such a good just, you know, guy describing what you're supposed to be doing, what you're supposed to be thinking, why you're doing it. I I enjoy that, but but again, then you go to a live role, and you're like, "Wait a minute, it's it's changing too fast for me to keep up." You can't really picture that's why drilling is so important. Drilling is everything. When you f you meet guys that drill versus guys that don't drill another it's a giant leap in their improvement. The guys who drill another thing that really helps is teaching. Um, when my friends who realized that they really love Jiu-Jitsu and they started teaching lower belts to make a living, they didn't want to do their job anymore, so they got a job teaching private lessons. Those guys got so much better.

Yeah, it's really incredible; it's extraordinary the leap that they make because they're concentrating on the basics, and they're they're explaining it to me to people. So when they're explaining these things to people, it's like cementing it in their mind, like really carving those grooves deeply in their mind and their body, so their body knows exactly what to do in those situations. Yeah, we used to have a saying in surgery, "See one, do one, teach one." I mean, you it wasn't exactly that, but I mean, if you could teach it, then you really had it down. And that's 100%, that's when I got really good at martial arts when I was teaching. When I was a kid, I started teaching very early on. My instructor realized that I had some potential, so he told me at like a very young age, I think I was like 16 when I started teaching. He said, "Look, we need someone to teach white belts; you're good, and you're very dedicated. If you teach, you can train here for free." So I was great; I was like, "This is awesome; now I don't have to pay dues; all I have to do is show up and teach," which I love to do anyway, and it helped me; it made a big I I got big leaps in my improvement from teaching.

Yeah, it makes sense, you know, you know, you know what really shocked me is because, you know, I doing this Carnival stuff. A lot of people are reaching out to me, and I had, uh, the first time I met like a professional MMA guy, his name was GE Georgie caran, and he F in Bell Bellator, and he very good fighter, and he goes, "Hey, would you mind if I came to your house and trained?" I was said, "Yeah, sure, come on over," and he's such an I I was like, "This is a killer; these guys are assassins. I mean, their job is literally to beat people up, right?" The nicest people I've ever met. I've been I've been amazed at how just super nice all these guys. I've met a lot of them now, and it's just like nothing to prove.

Yeah, I mean, it's just like that's that's the one thing, one of the reasons I Like About You Jitsu is like it puts the rest of your life in perspective. You know, you go there, and literally like someone's literally like trying to kill you, trying to if they choke you to death, you'd be dead if they like continue. You literally die, and so you're like you're fighting for your life, and then the rest of life is like, "Well, at least I'm not getting fighting for my life," so much easier. It's well, the hardest thing you do is always the hardest thing you do. If the hardest thing you do is parallel parking, like I can't do it, you know, it's like it becomes a [ __ ] a real issue, but if you're used to jiu-jitsu, the rest of the life is easy, right? You know, you're just trying not to get your arm broken; you're trying not, you know, like literally I mean, how many people are running around all day where multiple times a day you're trying not to get your arm broken, right?

Yeah, it's pretty rare, but in Jiu-Jitsu it's insanely common. Yeah, it's like like 10 times in half an hour some trying to break also it's such an insane stress reliever, and it's a moving form of meditation because it's so engrossing and it's so all-encompassing. You your all your thoughts thoughts are on that movement at that time. If you're training, you're rolling; all your thoughts are completely locked in; you're not thinking [ __ ] my electric bill; I forgot to pay it; oh my God, I got to do this, and what about the end of the month? I owe taxes. You're not thinking of any of that [ __ ] if you're thinking any of that stuff; you're quickly going to be choked, right? It's just like, you know, it's kind of funny because and this is trying to explain that to like my, you know, my my spouse is like she sees me coming in; my face is all scratched up; I got black eyes. She's like, "Why the [ __ ] are you doing this stuff?" Doesn't she it doesn't compute to her, but I'm like, "It's so fun; it's just like it's so there's such a pause of tradeoff for that." The only like like I said, I'm just thinking about for like, you know, think about longevity and stuff like that, and it's like, yeah, if I get hurt, then I can't train, and then that's going to have a negative impact on me, so it's kind of balancing that out so that you can still continue to do the things that keep you healthy and still enjoy this this thing. Training smart, finding good training partners, like if you train with Greg, I guarantee you it's safer than training with someone who's like a a brute of a blue; he's never hurt, you know, he's never hurt me, but he's he's submitted me like a gazillion times. I'm just like, again, that's what being a black belt's all about. But if you can just find training partners like that and then also drill, you'll be able to train well. I mean, ELO Gracie was training well into his 80s, yeah, you know, but but if you watched him train, he was training with his sons, and they were just they were flow rolling, you know, so he's always going over the techniques, but there's no spiking him on his head; there's no, you know what I'm saying, like that that the problem is the actual chaos of rolling where knees get yanked and, you know, [ __ ] backs get [ __ ] up; that's where the problem lies. But if you can train smart and train with other people that are also dedicated to training smart, you can continue your improvement.

Yeah, that's what I I look forward to getting back. I'm thinking probably with this neck thing, probably, you know, you know, 3, 4 months down the road, I'll be back. It's so addictive. I remember I was like I guess I was probably like 20, 7 or 28 the first time I got hurt, and, uh, I went to a doctor, and the doctor's like, "Well, you got to stop doing Jiu-Jitsu." I was like, "Okay, fix this, and I'm getting right back in there. I don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about." Like, all I was thinking is like, "How long do I have to recover from surgery before I can get back to rolling again?" That's all I was thinking; I was not thinking like, "Oh, I have to stop now." I was like what he was saying stop; I was like, "Stop what? Stop the one thing that keeps me sane," like cuz, you know, especially if you're a person that deals with other high-press things, it makes those other high-press things so much easier.

Yeah, it really does, and it elevates your human potential; like whatever you do in life will be easier to do because you do something that's so much more difficult than anything else. Yeah, so it's kind of like, you know, taking the cold the cold plunge or the cold showers. It's like if I get up and do that, the rest like you you said you that first thing in the morning.

First thing in the morning. So the rest of the day is downhill from there.

Exactly. I get up, and the first thing in the morning, I'm [ __ ] cold. I go out there; I'm in a bathroom; I'm like [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ]. I don't it never feels good; I never want to do it every single time. My my [ __ ] ass brain tries to find some way to override my discipline and tell me, "You don't have to do it today; you you've done it three days this week; I about take a day; let's go inside and get a cup of coffee and watch TV." I'm like, "Shut up [ __ ]; let's go," and then you get in there, and I just stare at my stopwatch; I stare at the watch, and I go, "When 3 minutes is over, I'm going to be so happy I did this," and every time 3 minutes over, I get out; I feel amazing. Yeah, cuz you got I think you've got this crazy like you said Rapid River like it keeps circulating water, so it's called the blue cube; we have it in here.

Yeah, that thing sucks, but it's awesome, but you don't have to have it on; you can turn it off; it's still cold; still cold as [ __ ], but if you really want to experience the suff the real suffer, crank that [ __ ] up, and it's a raging River. Yeah, this it pushes the thermal layer away from you, and it's also like really well built; it's an awesome machine. I can't recommend it enough. Blue cubes are the [ __ ]. I also at my home I have a Morosco Forge, which is amazing too.

I've been in one of those.

Yeah, it's great; it's cold as [ __ ]; the whole thing is just suffering; the whole thing is getting your body to adapt to this insane environment, making more brown fat, elevating your cold shock proteins, and also ramping up your dopamine in a significant manner. When you get out of there, your dopamine ramps up for

200% and it's like that for hours. I remember I, I can't remember like I used to do ice baths, you know, back way in the day, and I would sit in there for like 30 minutes. I mean, it wasn't as cold as it is now, but I'd get out and I'd be euphoric. I mean, I would literally be like, euphoria. It was like I'd shiver, but I'd be like, it was like I was happy for like hours after. That's what it is.

I have a group of comedians that I'm running in like a little comedy, like a comedy training boot camp. Get on Carnivore too. I am trying, yes. They're all, they're going to do it in January. I'm working them up to it now. World Carnivore month, when I first did it. So I've got them now where they're cold plunging uh, after workouts and eventually, like within the next couple weeks, we're going to start with the cold plunge, which is that's next level; that's that's when it gets hard.

Then I'm saying, look, we go through, I start them off; every workout starts out with 100 body weight squats, 100 push-ups, we do, and I tell them, if you can only do five, do five. You don't have to do 100, you know, like I'm doing sets of 20. If you want to do sets of five, do five. The most important thing is we want to build a base. So, so if you get to like five and you're struggling, stop right there. I'm not trying to kill anybody; I'm just trying to give you guys a base so you have a good time. So we're all laughing, we're having a lot of fun. I'm running through these workouts; we're doing it three, four days a week, and then we get in the cold plunge. We get in the sauna first, which is the way I've been doing it with them, so they get to the point where they're actually kind of looking forward to the [ __ ] I don't [ __ ] around with the sauna. I get that [ __ ] up to 185°, we're sitting there for 20 minutes. If anybody complains, I throw water on the rocks, like, come on, man, this is this is the whole, I know you can do this. I know you don't want to do this, but the whole idea is when it's done, you're going to feel better because you did a thing that you didn't think you could do, or you think you had to quit, and you don't have to quit. Because sometimes they'll be in there like, I got to get out. Like, no, you don't; you have four more minutes. You can do anything for four minutes, almost, but just [ __ ] concentrate, concentrate and relax and just deal with it. Count to 10 and then count to 10 again and then keep doing that, and eventually it'll be four minutes; just do it. And then afterwards, I get them in the cold plunge, and when I get them in the cold plunge, they get out, they're like, oh my God, I feel amazing. I go, don't you feel great?

So by doing it this way, where I'm just introducing them first to body weight exercises, then to very light kettlebells, you know, like 12lb swings, cleans, presses, some windmills, uh, then I've, now I've got them doing Renegade rows, a little bit more difficult, you know, and then now I've got them doing, you know, like um, the Rogue uh, glute ham machine. So I've got them doing like those sit-ups where you hang low and come all the way up. I'm like, if you only do three, do three. I'm doing sets of 15; you don't have to do what I'm doing, just do, because I've built up to this. We're going to do those, then we're going to do some back extensions. I'm going to strengthen your core; going to do some reverse squats with the the pulley machine. So we're going to do those with 50% of your body weight. If you can only do two, do two. I want you to get up to 10, and we're going to do sets of 10 eventually, but we're going to build a base. And so we build this base, and now these guys are [ __ ] happy; they're confident. They come into the green room before the shows like, dude, I feel [ __ ] great. Like, yes, because I mean, imagine, like, I mean, you've been a comic for a long time, right, and and that's got to be a love-tough lifestyle though, in a way, cuz you're out late at night all the time, drinking, smoking, partying. I mean, are these guys, because I mean, obviously the UFC fighters are a different breed than the comics, and are you finding that like, like in your own personal experience, that being in shape helps you with your your your craft?

I mean, I think it helps you with everything in life because it makes your mind function better. People want to think that the mind and the body are two separate things; they're not. You're an entity. Your existence is all symbiotic; it's all working together. If you eat better, if you rest, look, if I'm tired, like if for some reason I, you know, I had to travel or this or that or something woke me up and I'm not getting any sleep and I have to do stand-up and I have four hours' sleep, I don't have as much juice, you know. I have to drink like a couple espressos, I have to [ __ ] do some jumping jacks, get my brain fired up, and then at night I'm significantly more tired that day. If I sleep eight hours and I eat really good food and I come in there, I have more energy. If you have more energy, you'll be better at everything you do. There's not a thing you can do other than sleep where when you have less energy you do it better; nothing else. So if you have more energy, you'll be better at comedy, you'll be better at talking to people, you'll be better at whatever the [ __ ] it is you do, whether you're an accountant or a [ __ ] songwriter, you'll be better at it if you have more energy. It's not like mutually exclusive that you have to be a drunk fatso in order to be a funny comedian; it's just not true. A lot of drunk fatso's are funny comedians because they're wild, impulsive people and that's fun to watch, but they can still be all those things and be healthy.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, I not not a comic, I did some stupid skits were kind of funny, but it takes a lot of creativity, intelligence to be funny. I mean, I mean, you would know that. I mean, it's like it's something that a lot of comics are very, very intelligent people. I mean, I would, you know, yes, there's a lot of a lot of my friends are surprisingly funny; a lot of them are uneducated, but they're also very smart. They're very smart; they're very, what you call it, street smart or wise. They get things; they understand people; they're armchair psychologists; they understand what makes people think and behave. Patrice O'Neal is one of the greatest comics of all time; he was diabetic and he was a a big, overweight guy, but he was brilliant, and he had an understanding of human psychology that came from life experience and whatever [ __ ] he went through when he was younger that he brought to the stage, and he would have been better if he was healthy, which is crazy 'cause he was so good already.

So, so these guys that are training with you, are they all, they all live in Austin or local comics? And so, so they're, you've got like a new like a club or something like that, right? The Comedy Mothership that's in that's downtown or something? Yeah. So these guys are all guys that I work with all the time. So if I'm doing shows there Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, I'm doing shows with these guys. So there's like a really cool camaraderie and brotherhood with all these guys, and we all work out together, and you know, it's like I don't like that term team building because I don't think about it as like a corporate environment, but there's something to that, like we're all brothers, and we get together and we have fun together, and they're learning; they're learning. They like, oh my God, this actually makes me feel better, and I was never, they were never involved in anything like this before; they never had like organized workouts on a regular basis. But the fact that they're all going through it together as beginners and that they're getting guided by someone like me who loves them and who is already fit and they can see the benefits, and I'm telling them, dude, keep going; you will have a [ __ ] six-pack before, no, but before you know it, you will be better; you will feel healthier. Change your diet, change what you do, change how you live your life, make sure you get your sleep in, start taking vitamins. You just start; Athletic Greens is the [ __ ] easiest thing to take; take a scoop, put in water, spin it up; you got vitamins; do give your [ __ ] body the nutrients it deserves; do these things, and you will feel better.

Yeah, I mean, is there ever like, I mean, there's some like I can remember through the years like John Belushi, John Candy, these giant, you know, they all died early, right? You know, drugs or whatever, probably the [ __ ] didn't help them, but is there a danger of like, once you become that role, like you're the big, heavy guy, you got to stay that way to get the jobs? I mean, like maybe in Hollywood and stuff like that. Yeah, in Hollywood, if you want to be a big, fat guy in movies, yeah, my advice sucks; you know, lose your job. But you don't have to be the big fat guy. Like what's the guy that he's like, I guess Seth or something like that? He's like a redheaded kid; he was uh, Seth Rogan, no, not Seth Rogan, was another, no, I can't remember the guy's name anyway; he was a big chubby kid and he lost a lot of weight, and I can't remember what his name was, but he was in like Superbad or something like, oh yeah, um, Jonah Hill. Yeah, yeah, him. So he's like leaned out, but he's still, he still has a career. I guess, of course he does; talented, but also those movies that he used to be in, they don't [ __ ] make those anymore, cuz the the woke, PC culture just [ __ ] threw water on that fire. I mean, they used to make movies like Tropic Thunder; if you made a movie like Tropic Thunder today, everyone's going to jail. Meanwhile, it's one of the greatest comedies of all time, or Superbad; he couldn't make Superbad today. Jesus Christ, the backlash would be insane. Yeah, it's it's crazy how like, I don't know, I mean, I guess I guess I like like Generation X is the toughest generation, you know, it's kind of like, you know, yeah, but there's a lot of like really funny guys like Andrew Schultz is a perfect example; one of the best comics alive; he's fit, he's thin, he's smart, he doesn't party, and he's, you know, he's still hilarious. You don't have to be dying to be a good comic; it's not necessary.

Yeah, there's uh, I saw there's a there's a comedian, his name is Brent Pellet; you know who he is? Have you ever seen him? He does like a lot a lot of like these carnivore diet things and stuff. They did a, are you, do you know a place called Hopdoddy? Have you heard of that place? It's a burger, Hamburg Place, hamburger place. So my friend is one of the executives over there, and they had they had like Impossible Burger and Beyond Meat on their menu for a while, and he was like pissed off about it 'cause he's kind of carnivore leaning. They were kept trying to get get rid of it, get rid of it, and I think one of them paid like a million dollars to keep it on the menu; it was like it was like ridiculous; they were just, you know, obviously forcing this on the population. And Beyond Meat is just like tanking; nobody wants that stuff. You is it crazy how the stock went from like 250 like three years ago; now it's like five bucks; it's like, you know, not only that, they're [ __ ] getting sued, like people that are that were shareholders are suing, oh, for for yeah, and it's it's like, so Hopdoddy made a video, like, we're getting rid of Beyond Meat, and they threw it in the garbage, and this comic, Brent Pellet, making this funny little, it's like a three-minute funny video, and and Beyond Meat actually sent them a cease and desist; stop making fun of us, which how can you say that? I don't know; I guess they did; they said, see, don't make fun of us anymore. How can you send a cease and desist for making fun of something? That's what they did; it was just funny. So yeah, I don't think you have to obey that. Well, I don't know if it's part of culture; kind of fun; you could you can make fun of anything in culture. It's uh, in America, you see what they're doing in what is it, Ireland? Ireland is re, they're trying to pass some law where if you have memes on your possession, so if you have something in your possession that could be used to marginalize or incite violence, which is very open-ended, like something funny could be used to incite violence in their ridiculous ideology, that you could be arrested for that.

Yeah, wasn't there a guy that would was was sentenced to jail for having a meme about Hillary Clinton recently? No, he created um, he created a parody meme about Hillary Clinton, and he went to jail for it, though; something happened; it's like it's like crazy. I don't know if he went to jail or if he was convicted of something; I don't know what the sentence was, but yeah, and this was because that they were what were they saying that was like, Jamie will find it, but it's something egregious because it was a very subtle parody where you could say that this was just not true; these are falsehoods. So here it is: Man who spread misinformation on Trump's behalf sentenced to seven months. The man, Douglas Mackey, spread internet memes meant to fool people into not voting for Hillary Clinton in 2016. So what were the memes? Let's find out what the memes were. Show, okay, but let's find out what the thing, evidence show, hold up. Scroll up a little bit. Evidence show that the participants discuss generating interest in emails stolen from the Clinton campaign by Russia, portraying Miss Clinton as a warmonger and promoting the claim that she had cheated during the primaries to get supporters of Senator Bernie Sanders to hate not just Hillary but the Democratic party itself. Mr. Mackey published uh, pushed the hashtag uh, #WRinBernie, #WRinBernie. Evidence showed and stated that women and naturalized citizens should not be allowed to vote. He also wrote that Black people were unintelligent and gullible and suggested spreading a hashtag, #NeverVoteBlack, in Black social media spaces. Yeah, but here's the thing, like this was all parody; this I'm 90% sure. Let's find out what he actually made, but it I remember looking at the things that he made and going, well, that is, if you didn't know any better. Well, I mean, you think like today with the AI stuff, I mean, I know you've had like fake AI Joe Rogans, right? [ __ ] there's going to be stuff that are just like they're going to take something and make you say something that you never would have said, and you, they're already doing that; they're already selling, I don't know what to do; I don't know what I can do; they're, I'm selling big dick pills, and I'm selling all kinds of stuff online; rappers are using me to promote themselves, like I'm talking about this is the hottest rapper alive, and you know, it's it's an AI generated; you can't if you can't do anything against that, I don't know what you can do. What, what can anyone do? I mean, it's, well, I guess you could ask Instagram to take it down, but Instagram has some wild [ __ ] up in the algorithm now. I I see murders every day now. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry has this thing where every day we send each other the worst [ __ ] that we can find, and because of that, my algorithm is now conditioned to show me the worst. Oh my God, like every day it's people getting pulverized. Yeah, but they're banning like, I saw Chad Mendes, you know, Chad Mendes, the UFC guy, they took down his hunting photos, saying you can't put up hunting photos; you're showing murders and all this other crap on there; it's crazy. Well, I think they're doing it from these like really sketchy accounts, and they just make thousands of these accounts, put put that up there. It says, Twitter user convicted for false voting information, not Hillary Clinton memes; fact-check. Okay, but this is like, who are the fact-checkers? USA Today; it's just [ __ ] mainstream. Go back to that, please. Oh, sorry, the pop-up popped up. Um, so scroll down, and what what is it saying? Uh, Instagram post, direct link. Scroll back up. Let I can read that. Um, includes a screenshot, a post on X, formally Twitter, that claims a social media user is being imprisoned for political memes; breaking: Twitter user Douglas Mackey sentenced to 7 months in prison for being found guilty of election interference from making memes disparaging Hillary Clinton, reads the post, which links to a post-millennial story making the same claim. It received more than 7,000 likes in two days. Another version of the post shared on X by right-wing commentator Dinesh D'Souza received nearly 1,300 shares. And scroll that down. Okay, our rating: false. Making memes disparaging political figures is not illegal. Mackey was sentenced for posting memes that encouraged Clinton supporters to vote via text message, which is not a valid way to vote. Let's can we let's see if we can find the memes. I mean, that's I had a link for it, but okay, but no, no, that's that's that's them doing that; that's different. Let's see if he can find what his memes were that he made; Douglas Mackey memes. There, there they go. Okay, that's not really a meme though, either; kind of is. Save time, avoid the line, vote from home; text Hillary to 59925 and we'll make history together this November 8th. Okay, that's borderline, right, because that is kind of misinformation. I don't think the guy should go to jail for it, but like, click on that one in the upper right-hand corner. Yeah, that one says, Vote for her, vote from home, post Hillary using #presidentialelection. Yeah, this is definitely not true; there's nothing funny about that, right? Right. That is, yeah, that's different. This one, avoid the line, vote from home, text Hillary. Yeah, okay. So I wonder how many people got fooled by that; it said over five, like somewhere in the range of 5,000 people texted one of those numbers or something like that. I'm sure I'm sure they did because if you saw that and you go, oh, all I have to do is this and I don't have to vote in person. Yeah, if you're not aware, I could see how that could could get you. So that's that's yeah, that's a little different than a meme; I mean, it's kind of a meme, but it really is, mean, that kind of falls under misinformation. I don't think the guy should go to jail for it, but it pro, you probably shouldn't be allowed to, maybe lose your account or something like that.

Yeah, because I've been, you know, I got banned; remember I got banned from Twitter for like a year, you know, just for what? I don't know; I mean, it was they said they said there was like a a copyrighted music, like music playing in the background on one of my videos; we're going to ban you for life, and I was like, ban me for life; what did I, you know? It's like there's people out here putting, you know, promoting murder and death, and they're on there, and I'm like, the Taliban's on there, right? Exactly. It's kind of, it's not that it was that you were promoting this alt-right lifestyle of eating meat only, well, an exercise, exercise. Very problematic, Sean; it is; it is problematic. You can't have people eating meat and being healthy and working out; that's [ __ ] up. I don't know why you did, and I hope you've changed your ways. Well, I'm working on that. So like I said, we talked about that debate with the wacko vegan. Oh my God, that was my favorite one you've ever done. So I don't know when this took place, but I just discovered it; it was like two weeks ago. I just discovered it a couple of days ago, but you are debating this guy, and uh, you, by the way, you played this brilliantly where you just had this like little smile on your face, and you let him talk, and this guy was saying that you've never met a vegan like me. Not only do I not think that you should eat me, cuz you were talking about the animal kingdom, a little about the animal kingdom, like in, he like, oh, I don't think the animal kingdom should exist; I think we should replace it with human infrastructure. He was saying that he thinks that all animal predators and prey, that's all problematic, and we shouldn't have any of that. So he's for eliminating all animal life. Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of bizarre; it's like I was just like, I don't even have to say anything; it's not even a debate; all I got to do is just let you talk. For, by the way, where does this [ __ ] think fertilizer comes from? Where, where, how you going to grow your vegetables? Like, what are you going to do? He doesn't care about that; he he he said basically, I don't care if you kill billions of creatures to grow avocados; it doesn't matter to me; that that's fine. Um, even if they were, he said even, he went as far as say, even if they were humans you were slaughtering to produce crops that I eat, that's fine, but if you feed it for a cow and then kill the cow, that's a rights violation; that's a problem. I'm like, and then he was like, he said he won the debate because I said I probably wouldn't eat a homo erectus, you know, like, he said, well, if we could bring back something that's close to human, homo sapien, but not exactly, trying to get me to say it's okay to eat humans, but but that's the only that's how he won the debate; that's, well, that's how he claims he won the debate because so if you say I don't think you should eat orangutans, right, right, right, then you're, he won; then he won; that was the whole thing; it was just like it was just it was just bizarre; I was just, it was funny; I mean, it was hilarious, but well, he's in a cult, you know, whether he realizes it or not, he's in a cult, and this cult is not, it's it's not based on any objective assessment of the reality of biological life on Earth; it's just not. It's like to say that you think all animal life should die; are you including insects? Because if you include insects, then you're including bees; then you're, there's no pollination; you know, like what are you saying? Well, I mean, we our species, we if there were no animals, we would all be dead too; everything would be gone. So it's like, you know, it's almost like, well, you don't really seem like you fit too well on this planet. You well, I think that's a deeply unhappy person that's probably very depressed and and also a contrarian to the point of complete illogical thinking. Like the idea that you would think that all predator and prey animals that exist on Earth, including Africa in the wild, like areas where there are no human beings ever, and these animals all coexisted in this very balanced food chain where you have predators and prey, and the predators keep the prey animals in check, and that there's this like balance in terms of population; the fact that you think that human beings should somehow or another stop that and replace it with human infrastructure; that's basically what he's saying, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah; pave it all over with a parking lot and and grow food in a factory and, what, see if you can find that guy; it's hilarious because I don't think he understands like plants literally survive on biological material that is being broken down by the natural process and converted into fertilizer; it's liter, there's this symbiotic relationship; they breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen.

We breathe in oxygen; we breathe out carbon dioxide. The more carbon dioxide, which is a real problem with the whole climate crisis thing. The Earth's literally never been greener in observable history. Right now, with the higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, you literally have a greening of the Earth. The whole thing is super complicated, and to try to boil it down into some very easy-to-follow way because it supports your ideology is what most people are doing.

Yeah, Jame, if you go to my Instagram, like a couple back, like uh, there was that I think it's like I, I take on the final vegan boss or something like that. It was like, did you put those seed oil bottles behind you? No, he did that. That was his because he, he's a big proponent. He thinks, you know, there's a whole argument about, you know, you should be drinking gallons of canola oil, and it makes you healthy. So he did this. Give me some volume and refresh this so I could hear what this guy says, because it's, it's really funny.

World into non-existence, right? Like I think the wild, I think the natural world is actually morally problematic, and I advocate for its non-existence. Go, can you expand upon that? What does that mean, you advocate for getting rid of the natural world and we live in... Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the natural world is filled with death and destruction, things I find morally problematic. So I wouldn't... What would you replace that with? Human infrastructure. Human infrastructure, and we do a... And you're saying we would do a better job as humans? Yeah, I would even go so far as I think the end goal should be to ditch this ball because it's a liability in and of itself, but a lot of people might find that problematic. Fine, people are free to think that. I have a weird position just on that. See, like, do you see where he's coming from there? I haven't given this... I can, I can see his argument. I would disagree with that pretty... I don't think that if you make human infrastructure over where there is usually a huge amount of suffering and death and rights violations, most likely this... So I guess if we're calling a rights violation a lion eating a zebra, is that, would that fall under your definition of a rights violation? On my definition, you... Okay, interesting.

So who's the other guy? Obviously, that is a... I'll tell you this. So the other guy's a name; he's a, he's a vegan activist. His name is James Aspy, and he just, he'd be like a drug addict and a vegan, and he was like, he made this like rap video saying I wouldn't, I was afraid of him and wouldn't debate him, and I, I was like, okay, whatever. So, so he, he wanted, but he wanted a partner to, to debate with me, and I said I'm not going to bring somebody on, and this, this is the other guy he picked as his backup, as his... I'm like, he's probably regretting he brought this guy on now because he's like such a wacko. But uh... Well, that the guy that you're, the other guy, not the final vegan boss, but the other guy is like, don't you see his point? Exactly. Exactly. Rights violations. Exct. Rights violations. So a mountain lion eating a mule deer is a rights violation? Well, then I asked him, I asked him, 'cause I, then I go on to ask him, I say, "Well, what about the lion that needs to eat? Doesn't he have any rights?" He goes, "Oh, I don't care about them." I'm like, "Oh, God." So let's eat them. Let's eat the lions. Let's only eat predators. No, that's a rights violation too. A rights violation too. Yeah, they're, they're, they're bizarre. It's kind of... Well, it's just a complete, it, it's convenient thinking that's not based on facts. And if you mean, it's one of the things that's been discussed ad nauseum, but Ted Nugent covered it. Yeah, that if you want to kill the most things, eat a vegan diet. If you're thinking, like you made this argument that one cow, like one cow is one life, and it's probably better to eat cows because if you eat a cow, that's an enormous animal, and you could eat that cow for like six months. Yeah, how long, how long's an elk last you, Joe? Months. Yeah, months. It's... I was just... Hundreds of pounds. Yeah, I was just in Oregon, and that's the end of the Lewis and Clark Trail, right? And you read back there, if you ever read like the history of the Lewis and Clark Exposition, those guys were eating up to 9 lbs of meat a day. When they had a lot of game, they would, like they had 31 dudes, and they would go through, like every day they go through four deer or an elk and a deer or buffalo, bear, stuff like that. Have you ever eaten bear? I've never had it. How's it taste? I got some here; you can have some. I'd like to try it. Be awesome. I'll, I'll give you some. Awesome. Yeah, Cam Han shot a bear, and he turned it into pepperoni sticks. What kind of bear was it? Black bear. Black bear. Yeah, but you can eat grizzly bears too. The problem with bears is, well, not the real problem in society is that people view them as what, uh, my friend Steve Rell likes to call charismatic megafauna. Yeah, because we think of it as like Yogi Bear and "Only you can prevent forest fires," and you know, teddy bears and all that [ __ ]... Not teddy bears, but yeah, they're [ __ ] giant predators. But when you eat uh, Grizzlies, and you eat um, particularly brown bears that are coastal, which are the really large ones, they're eating a lot of fish, and they might taste like [ __ ], whereas if you get a black bear that is munching on blueberries, they're sensational. Steve Rell says it's some of the best meat he's ever eaten in his life, and when there's a video of him... See if you could find uh, Steve Rell blueberry bear um... So they specifically target these fall bears that are eating blueberries, and when he opens it up, he says they smell like blueberries; their fat is purple, and he said the meat is delicious. So this is an interesting thing because this is like, watch this. So that's uh, so this is him, right? What he's doing now, this is Steve after he's shot the animal, and these are pieces of meat that he's corded up, and so he's taken this fat, and um, this fat has a blue... See how it has like a blue hue to it? Yeah, that's from the berry. See, give me some volume. Does it say anything? Oh, good stuff right there. So he's going to start... See, he's up in Alaska or something, like, is he? Well, he uh, he lives in Montana, but he has a fish shack in Alaska, and uh, I think I believe he was hunting them in uh, Alaska, 'cause that's where, you know, like you just... He's, he'll specifically target them where they're eating blueberries. Getting in the C-line here, but want some rare, some red meat. There's some good stuff. And so what he's doing now is he's going to use a jet boil, right on the hip. Yeah, yeah. And he's going to cook the meat in the fat, kind of. So that fat, if you look at it, it's got like a blue hue to it, like a, a reddish-blue hue to it from blueberries. So he cooks that down there, gets the oil, gets it fat, and then he dunks... Way you can do this, you can actually put... So he gets a bunch of hot melted fat, and then he cooks... It's like cfy, like a cfy duck. Yeah, you have to make sure you cook it to 150-plus degrees to avoid chosis. I forget what the number is. That fat will line up sitting on top of the water, but for deep-frying meat, it's better to have pure oil. But if you just wanted oil out to drink, just if you needed like, you know, a quick energy charge, you can do it that way, a lot faster than rendering it like this. My brother one time, I watched him, like, render a mug full of bear fat and just drank it, like, coffin. That's how good that stuff is. And hunters like Daniel Boone, I mean, that guy would shoot bears just for oil. You could sell the stuff; it was a marketable commodity. You can continue to cook these fat pieces down, down, down, and they just want to be crispy little treats, like little pork rinds. How hard is it to bear, to get a bear tag? Like, it's not that hard, depending on where you go. They're overpopulated in a lot of areas. Okay, you want to hear something crazy? What state would you think has the largest population of bears per capita? Per capita? Yeah, take a guess, per capita. Wyoming? New Jersey. New Jersey. New Jersey has a real bear... A lot of people live in true Jersey. I know a kid a few years back who was going to Rutgers got killed by a bear out there. Wow. Black bears or black bear? Yeah. Black bears are more likely, for some reason, to kill people for food, whereas brown bears and grizzly bears, generally, they kill people because they get startled, or it's a mama and her cubs. I had a black bear walk through my backyard; it was, like, got it on video, like, up in Washington. Pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty good. My, my uh, my spouse is taking a bath; she heard the dogs bark, and she looks out, there's a freaking bear walking around. I was out of town. She's like, "Oh, my God, there's a bear!" But the interesting thing, you know, it's about the blue you said about the blue stuff in the fat. So, so, and I Jam, I've got a paper, I think it's from Stephan van, about phytonutrients in meat. So we talk about phytonutrients, right? You got to, you got to get all your plants, get your phytonutrients. Meat actually contains thousands of phytonutrients. So when those animals graze, they actually absorb that phytonutrients, and it goes into their fat, into their tissue, and so you actually get it in, in almost as much or even more than you can get in plants, because we all, we ignore that. But meat, like uh, Stephan van Vliet, who is a researcher out of, initially out of Duke, he's now at Utah State, um, showed that meat has something like 50,000 unique compounds. It's not just amino acids and a little bit of, you know, vitamins and minerals; it's 50,000 unique compounds, and many of them are phytonutrients. So it's pretty amazing. So 'cause like a bear can eat a hell of a lot more than I can, right? Yeah. Health-promoting phytonutrients are higher in grass-fed meat and milk, but you don't necessarily gravitate towards grass-fed. I do both, you know. It's one of those things that, you know, I mean, I don't know what your opinion is on taste. I mean, I know you like a lot, a lot, a lot of elk, and so I, you know, I get it's kind of funny 'cause I become like the Meathead guy, right? Like everybody... I get a lot of ranchers to send me stuff. They're like, "Here, have some, have some, have some free meat." I'm like, "Yeah, I'll eat that stuff." And I get, you know, I get a little bit of everything. I get some really crazy... There's a, there's a well, one in Colorado... Colorado Craft Beef, which Jao has invested in, they're part of that partnership, um, they got really good meat, but it's, it's, it's, you know, it's pasture-raised, and then they feed it, they finish it out themselves, and they have their own facility. But there's like one in, like, Mont... They, they finish their cows out on uh, sprouts, which is kind of interesting. And sprouts can grow like, you don't even need light; all you need is water, and you grow, and they, they grow very massively. And so this guy said in a building that's like 40 by 60, he can grow enough sprouts to finish out 400-headed cattle, which takes up almost no room; it's like amazing. So it's called Maffy Ranch Beef up in Montana, and they're trying to, you know, trying to spread this because you think about... We're talking about how do we sustainably feed people more meat, because I think that's a real issue, and that's, you know, one of those things that's, that's out there. So it's kind of... Because I, I think, you know, again, I don't think everybody needs to be on carnivore, but I do think we should probably eat less junk food and more meat. I mean, I think that would be a clear win for, for society in general. And it's like, well, how do you do that? I mean, we used to have, you know, this is, this goes back to the beef checkoff. I mean, their job is to promote beef, but since 1977, our beef consumption in the US is down like 30, 40%, and yet diseases are going up. So it's like the exact opposite direction, and literally like half a million ranchers have gone out of business since the 70s. I mean, it's like, you know, we talk about 3,000 ranches or 3,000 farms closing in in the Netherlands; half a million have gone out of business here in the US, which is crazy. So I'm always trying to support your local rancher, you know, whatever your preferences, but you know, get these guys out there, because I don't know, I mean, these guys are good. I mean, just like everybody else, I mean, the ranchers are hardworking people. I think they're one of the backbones of this country. I mean, you know, you get people that, that feed you. I mean, what, 'cause it used to be back in, you know, 200 years ago, everybody had to produce their own food. Now you got like 2% of the population feeding all the rest of us, and I mean, you, you know, I mean, I had Walt Harris, uh, Will Harris, Will Harris, Will Harris and his uh, sorry, Will and his daughter uh, Jenny on recently, and they explained, and I've had Will on twice, and he explained his uh, situation where he developed this regenerative farm from what used to be an industrialized farm, and how difficult it was. I'm reading his book right now, by the way. Yeah, I've interviewed Will before. I've talked to all these regenerative guys, and I'm totally for that. I think it's wonderful; it's great; it improves the ecosystem; it's like something we need more of. It's just, you know, incentivizing the guys, because a lot of the guys are on like more kind of a, a commodity beef, as he likes to call it. He doesn't like it anymore, but a lot of those guys are like, "I, I just, I'm worried I'm going to go out of business if I try this," because maybe they're, maybe they're up in North Dakota where it snows all the time, and they're like, "Where am I going to get the alfalfa and the hay to feed the stuff?" And it's just, it's kind of a, you know, it's what you have to do. Yeah, he's lucky he's in Georgia. Well, he's in a good place; he's like, he admits, "I've got perfect land for this," and not everybody has that. So, but he's also recreating nature in a contained environment, which is really what we should all be striving for. What we want is these animals to exist in a way that's ethical, humane, and that they exist in a way that they have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Yeah, and that's how they're healthy, and you, if you eat that, you will be healthier. There's no pesticides, herbicides, no no [ __ ] involved. Well, that's the... 'Cause you've heard of glyphosate, right? They spray it on everything. They've been spraying it on everything since, I don't know, the 1980s or something like that. Now it's showing up in your urine. Yeah, and it's, most of it accumulates in like grains and legumes and stuff like that's where it's most densely found. So if you want to avoid that stuff, don't eat that stuff. Eat, you know, more of a meat-based diet, because because mammals basically, you know, break it down, so it doesn't really show up in their meat and their milk very much. It's very, very limited, but it's, you know, it's like these, these guys that are do regenerative, they don't, they don't need any herbicides; they don't need any pesticides; get rid of all that stuff; saves them money in the long run. But it's, it's, it's like, like they said, you got to go through the threat of going out of business for five years or six years before you can make it, which is... Well, it took him like 20 years to convert that farm. Yeah, which is an amazing task that he achieved. And but because of that, he's like a shining light to all these people. We should, I mean, we should subsidize that stuff; that's what we should do instead of subsidizing all these wheat and grain and corn commodities, which go into, you know, potato chips and garbage. Yeah, well, that's what's crazy about, you know, we, we demonized Russia, but Putin banned GMO foods. Well, do you see what they did in Italy? Maloney said, "No, no lab-grown meat," 'cause that's another thing, you know, that's 'cause, you know, the plant-based, like people have caught on to the Beyond Burgers and Impossible Meat; it's just all ultra-processed garbage, and nobody... And the people are speaking with their, with their wallet. Which is, when I look at, you know, when I look at all the corporate sort of malfeasance and the, the corporate influence, you know, the corporations own the politicians... Would you, you got to know that, I mean, they're, they're paying the politicians, and you know, more in one way or the other, and it's like, what can I do as a, is a... What can I do as a lone individual? And it's like, all you can do really is vote with your pocketbook, and just every time you go to the store and you buy that [ __ ], that crappy food, you're putting more money in their pockets, and they, they have more power over you. And so I'm just like, you got to, you got to turn it around. So in a perfect world, they would invest all their money into regenerative farming, and they would change if people change their... And they realize, "Look, the only thing people are buying is grass-fed meat and organic vegetables, all from regenerative organic farms." If that really became something that was sustainable, they would try to pursue that. Yeah, no, I think, I think the market will dictate where things go, and it's just convincing the market that, hey, look, you know, if you want to continue to be sad and depressed and miserable, keep doing what you're doing, but you got to change it. You know, you got to make a big change, and that's what, you know, I mean, we're told not to do it, just like that USDA study: "Hey, 91% processed food diet." That's, say, "Okay, keep eating this way." So crazy. It is crazy. It's, that's what, what makes that sort of propaganda so insidious; it's like you're literally holding back people from gaining health and gaining control of their health, and you're... The evidence is clear in terms of, you just look at what people used to look like and what they look like now; something's wrong, something's really wrong. And all that comes from diet. Yeah, 100%. Secondary style and diet. Well, that's, but I mean, I will say this, and because you, I mean, I'm sure you agree that what distinguishes healthy people that age in a very healthy manner... I mean, diet is important, and I'm a huge proponent of diet, but physical activity and and exercise is such a huge... I mean, I don't care what diet you are; you need to be taking care of your health, and, and I think, you know, because I hear, because I, I hear it all the time, "Oh, you're in your 50s; you need to slow down; you need to, not, you need not be doing that stuff because you're going to get hurt," and "It's time to get down." But I, I mean, I've heard that since I've been 20, 30. "Oh, you're 30; you got to slow down." Yeah, I think once you lose capacity, like, you know, if, if you say like my 100% was here, and then you say, "I'm not going to do 100% anymore; I'm just going to do 90%," well, that 90% is now your 100%. Yeah, and then you keep doing it, and all of a sudden it's like, you know, walking down the street is now a chore, you know, right? And you see so many people, it's like uh, I had a guy talk to me about, I thought it was a good... This guy, Nam, Ted Naun, he's a doctor that I interviewed one time, he said, "You know what happens is over life you have this sort of spectrum of things you can do; this is me laying in bed, and this is me doing back flips," right? And then it gets smaller and smaller and smaller; eventually you're like, "All I can do is walk around the house," and then I can do the laying in bed, and then you're dead. So you need to keep this as broad as possible, and that's why I say when people say you need to slow down, I'm like, "[ __ ] man, I'm going to..." You know, you got to be trained; you got to train smart; you don't get hurt, but you need to push yourself. Well, also, if anybody watches your workouts, clearly you don't need to slow down, 'cause you're doing some pretty extraordinary stuff, and you're deep into your 50s. Yeah, just like you, same thing, right? Yeah, and we were kids; we were told that when you get into your 50s, it's over, you know? It's... Have you ever seen those images where they show like Archie Bunker and Judith Bunker when they're like in, they're like, they're like 38? I'm like, "[ __ ]." Sanford was like 48 when he was Sanford and Son. Crazy. Big belly, gray hair. I can't believe that stuff. Yeah, they weren't healthy; they didn't take care of themselves; they didn't, they didn't work out. But if you look at some people today, like yourself, and it's like... Will you look at like guys like Stallone and and Schwarz, in their 70s now, and they're still like... I mean, granted, you know, they're taking stuff, but I mean, at the same point, we've never had a time in human history where we've experienced people that are pushing it that way and still training hard into the late years. And I've seen, you know, I've seen people like in their 90s. I saw a guy who's 91 years old; he's deadlifting 405 for a triple at 90, and he only weighs like 148. That's incredible. It's like, where did this guy come from? So it's like, what is going to be possible? And you know, you know, like I said, I don't know; I always the longevity stuff, I was like, "I don't know." I mean, I don't think anybody really, really knows; I think you're just speculating. And my thing is like, let's get healthy today; let's stop being sick, and then, and then just keep doing that, and then if, if you live extra long, great, but you know... Because a lot of people say, "Well, if you eat a carnivore diet, you're going to die, have a heart attack at 60." I'm like, "I don't know that that's true." I mean, maybe I will, but I don't think that's, I don't think we have enough data to support that. What I can say is like, if you're sick, you're diabetic, you're fat, you're high blood pressure, I can fix that by diet; let's just do that. And I think we would just focus on that instead of like, protecting people from cancer when they're 90, yeah, which is like, you don't even know. It's just the evidence is so bad on that stuff. Well, what we know, what you can do for what you are right now, where you are right now, that if you change your diet and you eat healthier foods and you exercise, you'll feel better; you'll be better. That's a fact. Yeah, whether or not you're looking at like... Look, clearly these people that are eating off the Twinkie tree, they're not worried about being 100, 150 years old either. Like, that's this is nonsense, and that's a [ __ ] argument. Like, "You're going to get a heart attack; you're going to die young." And, and what? You're sedentary lifestyle, eating [ __ ] Oreos, you're going to be okay? Well, you... I mean, there's some people that say we've only got a limited number of heartbeats, and I don't want to... You've heard that argument? I'm just like, "What? You got to be crazy." But that's based on who and what, like, based on what? Says who? That doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Do, do we have a number of calf contractions that you're allowed to have? Your heart is a muscle, like, who says... If your heart is healthier because your whole body is healthier, you're more metabolically healthy, I would imagine that everything's healthier, your brain... You're like, people that are fit and older, their brains...

Work better. Everything works better. Just good. Let me—hey Jamie, there's a picture of a gal with blonde hair. Do you see that one? I just want to—I just want to show this gal because it's quite interesting because people are asking, "Where's the people that have been doing Carnival for a while?" So this is—there's a rancher; her name is Maggie. I can't remember—maybe Maggie White or something. She's up in Alberta. Can—she's been doing, supposedly, a carnivore diet since she's like 15. She's now 82, and if you can find a picture, she just looks like that's her—she's 82. That's insane. And she's busting her ass working on a ranch every day. Uh, she's learning Spanish because she's getting tired of how the Canadian government is screwing a ranch. She—she wants to move down to Bolivia and start a new ranch in Bolivia. She's 82, learning—starting a new ranch in Bolivia at 82. That's—that's a current picture. And a friend of mine went to go visit her and like looked at her birth certificate and her driver's—like she—that—and that's literally what she looks like at 82. So it's like, well, that's 82 years of no [ __ ] in your body, being physically active. It's amazing. It can do that for you. So we'll see what happens. You know, like I said, if the vegans are right, we're—you and I are dropping dead of a heart attack in six months. And—and you—they're going to drop dead too. Listen, that's—that's the funny thing. So I had a—you know, talking about debating vegans—well, I—I used to not do it because it's such a waste. I find out it was a waste of time, but now I'm kind of humoring it just because I don't know. I guess I'm bored. But well, listen, if you can get a result like the guy with the canola oil behind him, that's amazing entertainment. It was—I thought it was—it didn't—I didn't learn anything except how crazy these people are. But I had a guy that I was like, you know, he's saying, "Well, you know, you're going to get cancer, heart disease," and I said, "Hey, well, what—what do you think vegans are dying of, right? What—what do you think they die of?" And he goes, "Well, I don't know—skiing accidents." And I was like, "That's [ __ ] man. They're all tied skiing." So if they didn't ski, they'd live forever, right? Right. So I—I go, "That's—" So I looked it up, and I looked—I—I looked up studies that actually had endpoints of death on vegans, and number one cause of death is heart disease and cancer. It's like, you guys have the same thing everybody else. So all you gotta—all those years of suffering and farting and pretending you know virtue—like, for what? Dro de anyway.

Well, another part of the problem is they've become attached to an ideology that's very difficult for them to escape. And when they do try to escape that ideology, they get attacked. Oh, it's amazing by their people. Oh my god, there was this one vegan influencer who ate a piece of salmon and just felt amazing, I believe, so—and then they started [ __ ] attack—hacking her, and she was crying. And oh, but immediately started feeling better because she's giving her body what she needs. How many of these people are suffering? And how many—like, if you think of the vitriol that comes from the vegan community and so much anger and so much hate and—and hor—just horrible things they say about people—what—how much of that is based on like, hurt people hurt people, right? How much of that is based on them being in pain and them being in agony, whether it's mental anguish because they're brain's not functioning well, their body's not—they're overwhelmed with inflammation, their guts are filled with fiber? Well, I mean, if you imagine like, if you literally like believe the ideology really hard, you literally hate almost all of humanity. It's like every 99 out of 100 people you see, you're like, "I hate you because you're a murderer," right? You know, it's just like, how do you—how do you even live in that society where you literally hate every human being around you? I mean, it's got to be crazy. It's not good for you. Yeah, that's not good. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, there was a guy in that movie, *Game Changers*, you know, that vegan sports film, and uh, he was—he was—he was going to be in the movie. They had—they had filmed all the stuff. His name was Team—Tim Sheath. He was like an obstacle course—like, you know, those obstacle race guys, right? Ninja guy—American ninja type thing. And he was like the vegan prince—like they loved him. And then he said he got sick and he was like, "I couldn't do it anymore," and they like literally threw him out of the movie.

Well, there's so many stories of that. That's what's fascinating. There's so many stories of people who were vegan that had to abandon it, including a lot of celebrities that have come out. And when they do that, they get attacked. They get attacked viciously. Instead of people going, "Interesting, that's an interesting point of data," instead of saying it that way, you're going against an ideology. It's not about facts. It's not about the reality of the science or what we know about nutrition in the human body. It's about being attached to this ideology that makes you superior morally to the people that are around you. Yeah, that's—I always laugh when they say, "I'm going to eat this guilt-free whatever salad." I'm like, "No, there's a lot of things that die to get that salad," but they just like, "Oh, that—that doesn't count," or you know—it's kind of—kind of crazy. But I mean, you know, but they'll point out there are some—I mean, there literally are people that do reasonably well on a vegan diet. I mean, you probably see—they always—I don't know if you know—I mean, I'm sure you know him—they talk about Nate Diaz, you know, he's a UFC—not vegan. That's what I heard. He eats fish and stuff like that. But they always point to Nate Diaz, right? They point to him as the—the guy—like Novak Djokovic, who also is not vegan, but they keep pointing to him. It's just kind of like—as he also eats fish and stuff like that. How about when they put athletes on vegan diets, they get these catastrophic injuries? Yeah. Yeah. Cam Newton was—was the prototype for that. I mean, there's a bunch of those guys because you're not getting a lot of the things that you need. You're not getting creatine unless you're supplementing. You're not getting—you're not getting taurine, carnosine, carnitine. I mean, all these things that are either conditionally beneficial or absolutely needed, and—and you're just not seeing that. So we see that—like there was a—a depression study, Stanford University, 2018—people had major depressive disorders have low levels of carnitine. Where do you get carnitine from? You pretty much only get it from animal products. And so just like—it's like your brain turns back on. People say like their brain reset when they got the right food. So yeah. Well, listen, man, uh, I'm glad you're out there preaching the gospel, and uh, I'm glad you're still alive all these years later. He's still healthy, and everything's fine. And uh, I think what you're doing is important, cuz I think uh, people need to understand that we've been kind of hoodwinked in more ways than one, and that there's a—you can kind of follow the chain of evidence, and you can figure out how this happened and why this happened, and it's not to preserve your health, and it's—it's not—it's not evidence-based. And when you look at the real evidence that supports vegan diets and—and supports that meat is bad for you, find out that that's a bunch of chicanery too. There's a lot of [ __ ] going on there. And so I'm glad you're out there, Sean. Appreciate—appreciate giving me the platform to talk on this joke because I think it—like I said, it's literally—it's helping people, and I think anything that helps people we should be in favor of. And—and like—like I said, I think when—because we're seeing people are like saying, "We need to shut down meat. We can't eat it anymore," and I think that's a really—it's going to have some really bad unintended consequences back. So tell everybody where they can find your content and your social media.

Yeah, yeah. So uh—uh, first thing, companyriver.com. Re—if you want to, you know, get—get your health taken care of—all 50—50 states. Um, I'm on social media—Instagram, Sean—S-E-A-N Baker—B-A-K-E-R 1967. On Twitter, I'm at SBakerMD. Uh, I've got a YouTube channel; it's Sean Baker MD. And that's—that's—that's mostly where I'll be. All right, brother. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you. Apprciate. All right. Bye. [Music] [Applause] Everybody