Ex-Wall Street CIO: AI Is About to Reprice Everything You Own

The only thing that AI can't destroy is Bitcoin. In my opinion, AI turns everyone from a growth company into a cyclical company because eventually you get your head knocked off by AI. The easiest part of the AI trade is over officially. It's over. For the first time ever, the demand is coming from digital agents. It's not coming from humans. There is no chance we will ever have enough compute supply.

>> I never thought about that angle. I haven't heard you talk about that.

What Bitcoin solves for me is the distribution of wealth problem. And I don't hear many people, if anyone talk about this. If the safest place to put your money, it becomes Bitcoin, which I believe it will be in a decade. You have a call that Bitcoin is the purest AI trade on the planet. So most people think of Nvidia as an AI proxy. Let's go ahead and start there.

All right, Jordy. H man, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. I got a lot to dig into. We'll see how much we can get through. But you know, you you're you're a wealth of information. 30 years on Wall Street, Morgan Stanley, global macro, multi strategy fund, etc. You talk a lot about two subjects I love, AI and Bitcoin, and you've been talking about how they work together. A lot of people think that they are fighting against each other, but um you have a call that Bitcoin is the purest AI trade on the planet. So most people think of Nvidia as like a as a AI proxy, for example, not the high hyperscalers, but Bitcoin. I guess let's start there. So for my audience that holds Bitcoin, most of them hold Bitcoin because they believe it benefits from dollar debasement. A lot of that's carried over from gold, sort of like this doomer narrative, but you have this narrative of that AI is pushing that. So let's go ahead and start there. Can you break that down for us?

>> Yeah, Mark, it's it's good to finally um finally get a chance to do this. Um particularly since the way you're starting this off is is fun for me. It's good. So, I'm going to I'm going to bring everyone back um to 2012 and 2013 and kind of get your audience a little bit excited about um the pure AI side. And this goes to two events. Number one, I was a global macro person. I grew up in emerging markets. I saw the basement firsthand. I lived in Brazil during the emerging market crisis and I imagined I I managed emerging market businesses at Morgan Stanley in my 20s throughout the 90s beginning with Mexico before they devalued and then ending with Brazil and then coming back and and and coming to the US to run the biggest book for the firm at a time when everyone I knew that was highly educated was literally believing in the dotcom bubble. So I left the depression. I came back to this area and that always that Brazil experience always made me believe that the difference between one country being so wealthy, growing so fast, having such an educated group with technology taking off at the same time that I was leaving a place where people that live just 2 miles outside of a city literally didn't know anything about planes, the world, anything. It always kind of left with me and I think for that was where my Bitcoin journey started even though I didn't get it. So in 2012 and 2013, two things happened. As a global macro person, I who had spent a month of the year in China for the prior eight years as a grassroots let me see what's going on. Let me make money on the biggest trend in the world. Something started to bother me in 2012 because Amazon, a book company at the time, uh was trading at infinity pees. And this is only a decade after we learned our lesson in the dot bubble. And I couldn't figure out how this thing could sit there. And I also realized that China was reaching a point where they were going to have to print money for the rest of time. So they had entered the same world that the US did that Japan did that Europe did which is we have to print our way out of everything. So to me knowing there was no backup that China was the caboose of let's say the printing press I needed to find out how Amazon could trade there. So I traveled to Silicon Valley as a macro person for my first time. I met with people. I talked with them. I did my grassroots and I was blown away but in particular by one group which was Singularity University Peter Peter Diamandis and it hit me hard that oh my god we're not viewing the world the right way. This innovation is accelerating at such a fast pace that they're talking about us reaching the singularity by 2030. So 2013 the most important or 2014 the most important thing in my journey of Bitcoin in realizing what it was which took all the way until COVID was a paper that Mark Andre wrote on why Bitcoin matters and that was where I realized that the convergence between tech and crypto regardless of what people were thinking about Bitcoin the ideologist everything that went on this was an inevitability about the Bitcoin white paper solving the one thing that hadn't happened with the rise of the digital economy which was digital money. We hadn't figured a way to have it. So regardless of your views on Bitcoin, regardless of where it is, it does come from that point in time where innovation had to meet and now we're at this critical point where AI is accelerating the astromatics role even faster.

>> I love that. And and you said, you know, regardless of your views on Bitcoin and so when you think about sort of like problem solutions, right, technology is supposed to solve problems. And today I say supposed to because today we have all types of technology that's trying to solve problems that probably don't need to be solved. I see it all the time. I'm a partner at a venture fund and we look at deals all day and and they're always with all the buzzwords and I'm like can you just tell me what problem you're solving here? And so if you want to say okay we can exclude Bitcoin but what are the problems that need to be solved and think about it from that way. Another book that came out um was uh the sovereign individual which I'm sure you've read that's you know big in the space and that was written you know pre-.com bubble >> and they just talked about it more from a >> I mean maybe a philosophical angle historical angle a global sociological angle of how we would need how the internet would change the world and how we need that internet based money and so I think when you look at it from that perspective and we look at how the world is sort of breaking apart and the global competition and you mentioned China has to print forever we all do we're debasing and it's like I I often tell people the world needs a decentralized ledger and a neutral form of money and if not Bitcoin then what and I think if you take it from that approach then maybe you can sort of shed some of the biases. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Yeah, I I want to fill in a gap on one thing you said because the the moment for me with Bitcoin that goes back to Brazil when I understood what it was for me I'm I'm I believe exactly what you said which is innovation solves problems. What is this solving? So for me the key point and I don't hear many people if anyone talk about this what Bitcoin solves for me is the distribution of wealth problem. Now, that's a big statement. That's that is the major problem in the world. But that goes back to my time in Brazil where I could see people so poor. But how could it possibly It took me time to understand. But the democratization of access to assets, the democratization of access to the benefits that come from innovation because right now it's it's it's in the hands of people that publicly say and I and I remember the first tech individual who said this um I have so much money I couldn't spend it if I lived for a million years. So when you get into the point there's two ways for that to happen. and they can keep handing it down to their kids and that ends up filtering into Bitcoin because they have different beliefs. But the other way it happens is what AI does is it destroys value. It destroys moes. It allows for instant competition of anything which is always at the end the the the law that has dominated capitalism in the distribution of wealth which is scarcity. The value of any asset is based on its scarcity. And so for Bitcoin, when I heard about scarcity and I thought about the fact that, well, what's the value of real estate if AI gets us to a point where the cost of building a house is zero? What is the value of a home? What is the value of real estate if humanoids are building it? I could go down so many different paths. How do you know that a Picasso is a Picasso if you have a million Picassos that all look exactly the same? And if they were tested by anybody, the only thing you have is a piece of paper which unless it's on the blockchain can be doctorred as well. So every single thing for me became, oh my god, that's what technology is. We solved for money. And if you go back to what the money problem was, we couldn't get to the point where it was immutable. We couldn't get to the point where we could solve that what you had was real. And so that's where I go. It's the problem of the distribution of wealth that it actually solves. And it makes the world a different place when we get into abundance.

>> It solves the distribution of wealth because it breaks down some of the monopolies by lowering the barrier of entry. So now as Sam Waltwin said you could have a single person having a billion dollar company. So the barriers used to be capital in the industrial age were capital um I mean still traditionally have been capital but now if a one person can create a software that can sell for billions of dollars then that lowers the barrier I guess is what you're saying.

>> Is that is that right?

>> So that's the that's the distribution of wealth that it solves.

>> Yeah I there's there's more to it than that. I actually believe that what Bitcoin is about is time. And if time with AI goes to the point that competition is infinite, as Eric Schmidt said at at a very famous now um you know meet or not meeting but sat in front of a classroom in Stanford in 2024 I believe with Eric Brolson and he literally said you could create Tik Tok within minutes and replicate what they do. You could send it out and have millions of viewers. just look at how things go viral and then you would take their business and it would be that community that would migrate to this. We've been forming communities with social platforms. So my whole belief was that AI would disrupt capitalism by the function of cost going to zero but at the same time businesses springing up and then collapsing and springing up and collapsing. And that's why for me as someone who grew up in the traditional finance world, when I create a 40name token index with eight verticals, which is what I've been working on for the past six months to prove to people that Bitcoin is just the S&P 500 of the future and I'm starting to merge now public companies with tokens because there's enough public companies now like Circle, like PayPal, like Robin Hood, companies that are half or quarter in crypto and this that's what tokenization is going to bring. So, Bitcoin for me was the end result that if everything moves really fast and competition is instant, then the only thing that's left is a store of value that you know will be here in 50 years. And right now, that store of value in the Trady world is the S&P 500. If you asked 100 people, where's the safest place to put your money? If you're trying to get a 15% return, the S&P 500 is going to be the place around the globe that people are going to say and that's where people have most of their money. Well, if in the future that is Bitcoin, which I will believe it will be in a decade on the path there, there will be lots of realities that come in with what I said, which is about competition and scarcity. If you hold Bitcoin, I want you to think about something just for a second. Not how you store it, but who gets it when you're gone? Most self-custody Bitcoiners have never tested if their family could access it if they were gone. Knowing where the keys are isn't the same as knowing how to use them. That's a technical side, but what they most often miss is the legal side. So, even if your family found the keys and they knew how to use them, there's no legal structure telling them the Bitcoin is theirs or how it's supposed to pass to them. You see, Bitcoin that isn't properly retitled and documented could end up in probate. So, it's not one problem, it's two. Yes, can your family physically access it, but is there a legal framework that says it's theirs? So, if you want to find out, take a short 2-minute quiz and get your inheritance readiness score. Just go to unchained.com/markmoss. Again, that's unchained.com/markmoss. And it's definitely worth two minutes to find out it's actually handled or not.

And and and pulling on that thread just a little bit, I mean, now today with the rise of Marxism and communism and everywhere, you know, Karl Mar said that the the poor the the poor, they have nothing to offer. They have no capital. Because back then ideas weren't valued. All you had was capital. And so, you know, he was mad at the world because he couldn't survive on writing this philosophy. Of course, today you can. Now we see our ideas are there. So to the point that you're making with the AI takes away the need for capital in some exa some some instances where I can now just create um and then Bitcoin takes away sort of the power of the fiat monetary system where we enable companies to become monopolies um and grow but they never fail. They become too big to fail. And so Bitcoin could return risk and could return balance where companies go up and down. And so then that also democratizes that. So it kind of takes away those barriers and being propped up by the government, by the money printer, etc. So I see that from two angles. I like that. Hadn't really thought about that.

But >> can I have one more frame for you though?

>> Yeah.

>> And this is a point that I think is important now because you know as people are focused on the Clarity Act and they're focused on the regulatory side. Tokenization is happening like it's it's happening now and I I was at the New York Stock Exchange last month uh for a tokenization event. And I spoke in front in front of a bunch of Korean brokers and a bunch of other people speaking on tokenization. And tokenization to me is the bridge between these two worlds merging together. It's why I said I have a 40name index with six public companies, 34 tokens. I believe the merge is happening through tokenization. The most important thing of tokenization gets into one other thing about the value of things which is there's let's say somewhere between let's just say $700 trillion of fiat assets on the planet owned by households. Twothirds of that is in illlquid assets. Now right now you can borrow on illquid assets. You can borrow on house. You can borrow on real estate but they are illquid. The thing that will change in my mind with tokenization is those dormant assets will become liquid. when they become liquid. The question is, is that a good thing or a bad thing for those assets? I think they're going to be used as collateral. But one of the things that makes housing go up is if one transaction happens on your block and it's 10% above the prior price, then all the houses on the block go up in value and everyone can go borrow off them. But there's no liquidity if everyone came into the market. The market is going to now evolve with speed of AI and consumer agents where liquidity is going to be valued at a much higher level than it used to be. And so things that are liquid will get a much higher haircut on collateral. And that's where Bitcoin becomes the collateral of the system. And if all of a sudden it has a better collateral, think treasuries in the US, well then there's value to holding them because you can people will lend against them because they're liquid. If you can't borrow against real estate the same way you could or there's a haircut because its bit offer spread is not the same as Bitcoin. I think liquidity becomes a very important thing when agents are making decisions rather than banks. And that's the one part about Bitcoin. It's a very deep liquid assets that trades 24 hours a day. There's nothing else like it on the planet. Liquidity will become a much higher valuable thing as we move forward.

>> Yeah, let's pull on that thread a minute. I hadn't planned to go here, but on the tokenization, uh, for from 2016 to 2019, I wrote a cryptocurrency research newsletter, published like a thousand pages of research. By 2019, I'm like, okay, I'm just going to focus on Bitcoin. And so I've kind of been out of the space, but when it comes to tokenization, we think about if I if I think about we talked earlier about solving problems. So like what problem does tokenization really solve? So for example, I have stocks and now the stocks are on tokens. Um, okay. So that certainly adds efficiency for the brokerage. Sure. Okay. I can see that. And you know the DTCC register is is problem. There was the famous Dole Foods example when they privatized it. There was more shares outstanding. So you know having having easier accounting so it adds efficiency to the broker. Okay. Hey, what do I really care about that? I guess I can burther buy buy the broker stock. It fractionalizes ownership. So maybe it lowers the barrier to entry of owning assets. So if you have a real estate project, $500,000 apartment building, but I could buy a token of it, I guess, right? But by tokenizing it, it adds efficiency to the brokerage. But how does it if I tokenize a stock, how does it make it worth more money? Where's the value creation from that specifically?

>> Well, this is there there's a bunch of things in this that I I've thought about. The first one is in the United States um right now the majority of money that humans have in the banks gets no interest and that's because they're in the too big to fail banks. Why is there so much money in zero yielding instruments? Why isn't everyone moving to money markets? I mean it's happening slowly but why is it not happening? And I remember when SVB was going out of business and I was managing uh a bunch of portfolio managers and the guy managing the banks, I said, "So there's withdrawals happening. What's going to stop them at all the banks?" And he said, "Oh, very simple. These companies can't take their money out of the banks. They can move them all into JP Morgan and and and and Bank of America, but they can't move them out because they got to pay bills."

>> So the first thing is Mark on this. If you have tokenization and you have stocks that settle the same day into cash, well then if you're in a Starbucks and you buy a coffee, you can pay with it with anything that you own in your wallet. It doesn't have to be just a credit card with money. So it not only breaks down the intermediaries, it brings instant cash settlement to everything. The second thing it does, it brings instant price discovery, which should eliminate what we're watching with private credit right now. what we've watched with private equity, what we've watched with people forget this. We're watching one of the biggest unwinds in history of things being mismarked. So, when you're in a fund and you hear, "Oh, I'm picking you. I'm giving you payment in kind." It gets rid of all of that stuff. Tokenization clears up one of the biggest things that people don't realize that why when you invest in a hedge fund should you not get your money back for a year? Why should you have it locked up for five years? Well, that's because we're in illlquid assets in tokenization. Theoretically, there'll be price discovery for every asset. And if everything has a bid offer spread, then you no longer can hide behind the marks of just marking it to some model thing. So, I think there's a lot more nuances to again this thing of time. And all that you have with illquid assets is I don't need to sell it now, but if I needed to sell it, I'll send out pieces. And so, it hurts retail in the end. And we're seeing that with private credit and all the times that they go to retail for to to borrow money.

>> So then, you know, I uh I spent a lot of time in Mexico. I I have a house down there. And uh it's getting better, but the real estate market is not efficient at all. There's no MLS system down there. You don't know what one piece of land sold for versus another. And so I have no way to price anything. Kind of what you're saying. Now it's getting better. They're starting to get MLS. We're starting to get some of the data. So now you can start to see that market. And and so similarly what you're saying is like a venture fund or a hedge fund or whatever I have equity in that but I own it as shares. So I do have fractionalized ownership of that and that fund or whatever could allow me to sell my shares to somebody else. So technically I do own a fraction of the fund and technically well potentially they could allow me to sell the fractional ownership. So that market seemingly sort of already exists.

>> Yeah. Except for the fact that you have to you can't get your money before a certain amount of time. So delay

>> if they have rules that prevent me from doing that. Right.

>> Almost. I mean I there aren't many funds that you get your money the same day. And if you do, especially for like private credit. That's why BDC's trade at a 30% discount to the private credit funds because there's daily liquidity on those.

>> Yeah. I guess the point that I'm making is I already own I can own a I can own a piece of real estate in a in an LLC or a CC corp and I can have as many fractions of ownerships that I want in there and I could say that all my investors are free to sell their shares to other people, you know, bearing some sort of approval process or something like that. And so we already have fractional ownership. Whoever sets up the real estate project or the fund could allow the fractional ownership to sell within itself. tokenizing it would make that process more efficient, but does that create a lot more value? I guess is the point because because I started my career in real estate and it would be very hard for me to evaluate or price like how do I take a forplex in Indiana, a share of a forplex in Indiana versus a Aclass building in New York City for example.

>> So I I guess this is the part democratizing asset ownership to anyone meaning no matter how much money they have. So, if I'm a young person and I make $100 a month because I'm still in school, but I want that money to earn interest, like I want to be able to invest it and I've got a long time horizon. I can't go invest in a hedge fund. I can't go invest in a private equity fund. I can't go invest in any of this stuff. With fractional ownership and consumer agents or agents and you put your money in and then you say, "Here's what I'm targeting over the next decade. I'm targeting. I want to have a high-risisk portfolio that makes 15 that airs on the side of 15%. I'm only take a little bit of leverage. Go distribute this in the most risk. You can see where this gets like the optimization that'll be done by an agent to just put that money to work. So theoretically, you should always be optimizing for the return to risk ratio that the person putting the money in is there. A a person who's poor can't get out. They can't do anything with it.

>> Yeah. No, it's a great point. And so the problem is the information gap. uh and where funds make their their their gain is information asymmetry. And so when you have agents, they have access to all the information. So now you have the digital intelligence and they have liquidity. And so now it starts to open up the market. I could see how that would work. Um so, yeah, that makes sense. Um I hadn't meant to go down the the token rabbit hole, but it's an interesting conversation. You know, obviously the Trump administration is very bullish on tokenization, so they push through, you know, several acts they're trying to get through. Obviously, one is which stable coins and the banks have been fighting that because they don't want people to earn yield and disrupt their business model. But the other one is I, you know, the Trump administration wants companies to be able to spin up much faster on a tokenized platform and offer that liquidity. So, it's an important piece, especially when you think about how AI comes together in that. So, let's jump over to one of my favorite subjects. Bitcoin has been my favorite subject, but man, all day, every day, 24/7, I'm in AI. You know, I got the G-Brain going now. You know, I got the GStack running the Gbrain. You know, we have these fly It's like, you know, I'm talking to it on my phone everywhere I'm going. Uh I'm wearing I have I have two different AI wearable devices that I'm that I'm I'm testing out, you know?

>> Um so, you know, I look at this as uh I mean, look at me. I'm a fanatic, right? Um and you know, as somebody who kind of started my career at the beginning of the com boom and um I you know, a lot of people want to draw parallels to that. I look at the par the the.com boom as somebody who launched an e-commerce company in uh 2001 and was laughed out of the door. No one will ever buy anything online. They told me but you know we had this big buildup and we had all these websites that were built web.com pets.com webban etc. But there was no buyers less than 10% of people had ever bought anything online by the year 2000 and and the tech the technology didn't exist right the internet was too slow. People were afraid of putting credit cards in. So we had we had the supply but no demand. Today I see people calling the same bubble, likening it to 2000, the same AI bubble, but it seems like we have way more demand than supply, which seems completely inverted to me. So, what's your take on that?

>> Well, this is the um this is literally the most interesting thing and I I probably have had five or six discussions on that today with hedgeon people. So whenever um there's any kind of an unwind in a space then humans brain goes to the anxiety world they start worrying about things well maybe there's not and they come to me as the guy who constantly says there is no chance we will ever have enough compute supply for the demand and the reason is and to your point Mark the the internet was a human being thing meaning the demand was coming from human beings adopting things which we know takes time. I mean all of us have the story of the iPhone comes out and three years later people still have Blackberries and they refuse to get off their Blackberry and the reason was because I can hear the click of the keypad. Now you literally have to think that that's not even a possible argument with something that has apps and all of these tools on. So the difference this time is very simple. The demand for the first time ever in this type of situation is coming from digital employees or digital agents. It's not coming from humans.

>> So until I'd say November of last year, we didn't know when that inflection point would happen. So you told me before we started about a keynote speech that you gave in Abu Dhabi about agents.

>> Yep.

>> And again, I followed this all last year. I wrote about it. I was hearing Andre Carpathy, literally one of the best guys that I would ever listen to on when we'd hit these certain inflection points. And I remember listening to it on an interview with Dwarash Patel in October, basically saying it would be another decade before agents would be with us in the form that were necessary. Now, the form I cared about was exactly the moment that has happened now because agents speed up adoption from humans because they're doing it for the human. So we don't need to wait for them to adopt. And that's the difference between the internet is that the demand side is being driven by billions of effectively Einsteins by the end of this year that are being created by companies that will be created by humans once Apple and once Meta put them on the devices. You're testing out devices. They're not ready yet, but eventually Amazon will have Alexa ready. Siri will be ready. And that will happen sometime this year or at least it'll be to the point where people are like, "So wait, I can now order things verbally on the phone." And by the end of next year, we'll certainly be there. So once that happens and someone says, "Will you book a trip to Disney for me and my family? Will you book a trip to Italy?" the amount of compute needed to go to all these apps, check them all, do that all for 24 hours much more than a human would. That is the reason why the compute side is going up exponentially is because we finally have something for the first time, which is a parallel world where demand is being created by computers, not by people.

>> I never thought about that angle. I haven't heard you talk about that. That's interesting because the the computers are obviously naturally uh native to that and so there is no learning curve and I remember as I said in 2000 people were so afraid to put their credit cards in the computer online and it's like you're protected with your with your credit card. What are you even afraid of? But but they were afraid of that and um you know the AI agents don't have anything to be afraid of. They're native to that. So I hadn't really thought about that. Okay. So I got to tell you what I've been doing with my money lately. I moved my cash over to River. And before you ask, yes, I still pay all my bills and dollars. Everything works the same. But here's the real difference. You see, River pays me 3.3% on my cash and they pay it in Bitcoin. So my money that was just sitting there doing nothing at all in the bank, it's now stacking Bitcoin while I sleep. So I started thinking like, my bank takes my deposits, they loan those deposits out, they make 12, 17, 24%, and they pay me 0.04%. I mean, honestly, that's kind of a shakeddown when you think about it. Now, River's FDIC insured. They use full reserve. They charge no fees. So, I don't know why I didn't do this sooner. So, click the link down below. Get $100 in Bitcoin just for getting started.

So I do see this demand and you know, we can look at Metaf's law and how fast technology scales. And so, then that kind of shows us the demand for the energy and for the hard parts etc. the the the memory etc. But what about the capital? So then we have a capex problem and it seems like uh these companies are spending a lot of money and at some point maybe the bond market might want some of that money coming due. Is that going to be sort of a a break on this explosion?

See this is something I I don't understand um this is where it gets a little a little difficult for me when I'm talking to people as to how they don't see this. So I'm going to just take you through this. So if this with anthropic and open AI, I can understand where people are skeptical. These are brand new businesses and even though their revenue is growing, it's not even close on a r basis to what the amount of debt they have to take. So I I get it. But at the same point, OpenAI has 100 plus billion in cash. Like we've never seen fund raises with equity that we've seen. I mean, OpenAI raised 122 billion and Google raised 80 billion in equity.

>> Yeah.

>> And the debt to equity of these companies of the MAG 7, the hyperscalers at this point is close to zero still. Like they can borrow for the next whatever years. If this was 2009, to me it's a big problem because they're not big enough. Their market cap as a combined group was 1.5 trillion in 2013. But the problem is you're dealing with companies that have tens of trillions of dollars and the total capex buildout we're talking about is not that far. And oh by the way, how much did SpaceX just prove the value of all of that buildout by offering the compute to Anthropic at levels that made Meta say, "Oh my gosh, we should be doing this until we can use the compute ourselves." So I'm not worried about using that. But there's one other thing. When you take Microsoft, Google, and Amazon plus Oracle and take their most recent earnings reports, those four companies combined have $2 trillion of contracted orders for compute. So RPOS are sitting there. The reason they can't monetize them is because they don't have the compute. So what I don't understand is if you had orders where they're already there and you're borrowing money not on 10-year orders, but on one-year orders.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't think you're I don't think there's going to be a problem borrowing the money unless this is all circular and they all go out of business in terms of no one uses AI. And that's where I said I think the agent side solved that problem if the agents hadn't caught up quickly and if Anthropic hadn't made this breakthrough and forced the the flywheel to go with adoption, I could have seen a window. But I think the agents solved that problem for everyone in in January of this year.

Yeah, I I spent part of my early career in creative finance as a finance lender and we were doing um invoice factoring and purchase order financing and I can tell you if somebody had purchase orders outstanding for those amounts, uh there's financing typically for those things. I can tell you that from experience. So, so I think that makes sense. You know, it seems easy and our our brains are are comparing mechanisms. We're always just trying to compare it. And so, you know, one way I look at and I I guess the question I would ask you is where do you see the value being created when you think about investing in the space? So, you sort of have the LLMs obviously, then you have like the chip manufacturers, the memory manufacturers. Uh because when I look at some of the big LLMs, I think about building the necessary utilities, if you will, but I think back to like Cisco, you know, from 2000 that like never really recovered and and and certainly, you know, some of these companies went and put the fiber optics in the ground. Didn't really work out real well for them. it was it was much better for the people that came and built on top of that. So as you look at this sort of being built out and sort of a repeating of a cycle, where do you see the value being acred?

So that's a great question and I and I I want to um I want to take it back for people because I'm sure people aren't convinced on what we talked about with the the revenue already being there. So, I do want to give people again one visual which I showed in my video this past weekend and and then I'll get into where we're already seeing it happen and it is happening. It's just not happening the way that people think. Um, so when you look at the fracking boom, let's forget the.com bubble. Let's go back to fracking and all of the money we spent to build oil and that eventually the price of oil went down and all these companies were left with debt and um and literally their equity fell violently. So theoretically the hyperscalers if they spent all this money in a similar way token prices are going down the cost of AI I mean it's going down 90% a year and so one of the fears that people may have is this side of okay well we've seen this before if the price goes down and that's the commodity and you're borrowing money on that you may not actually be able to sell what you have for anything of value. The difference is and this is why when people hear Jevans paradox the curve of demand is exponential. So the amount of tokens needed even if the cost is declining relative to the value you get from it the we're going from one user to a trillion users to 10 trillion to it's the law of exponentials and the supply of this side is linear and that's what I always like to say is that you have to remember that the supply is based on the constraints of physics and it's based on the ability of human beings to build that until we get humanoids and until we get AGI none of that's going to get solved that's what will solve it eventually That's why I'm 100% confident that we will always have more demand for compute. Now, back to your exact question. So, this is happening. We're seeing it with private companies. And this is the thing. I I worked at Morgan Stanley. I I had the fortune at at 30 years old to be living in Brazil. I was running an office. I ran up the ranks very quickly. I came back. I took over a book and I was now managing director in a firm. I'm a partner. I'm an I get to talk to everybody about the expenses of the firm and the one thing I know having managed hundreds of people enterprises have bureaucracy like government it is very difficult to pivot it's very difficult to make changes so the only way I see any of these companies getting the revenue is honestly a little bit of revenue on the top line most of it's going to come through their ability to cut expenses plain and simple but the companies that are growing rapidly Google has 200,000 employees. Anthropic has 200 employees. So revenue per employee at at Enthropic at the end of this year is dramatically bigger than at Google. And as you go across cursor, you go across MKER, you I could name a 100 private companies that have gone from zero to a unicorn in a matter of months. And so what we're seeing is the ecosystem of AI native companies growing rapidly. They may never go public. I don't consider SpaceX an SpaceX an AI company. I do Anthropic and OpenAI, but their model companies, they need to borrow money. These other companies are growing so rapidly. And as someone who started a business, left Wall Street, and is growing, my business has grown violently since I launched it in February of this year. And I can just tell you that ARR without needing to add human beings, without needing to take debt, is something that people have to start to adjust to. And this is where tokenization fits in. I think most of the value in the US will be small private companies. I think we'll be we will be growing hundreds of millions of small businesses of entrepreneurs having the ability of growing a business rapidly. Right now it's just the tech people that have the experience and they have the ability using it. But every day I have new people building a Jensen Yuang knowledge brain, building something else that I'm showing them how to do. So I think what's going to acrue is that the bigger enterprises are in a race to somehow not lose their revenue as fast as they've reduced their expenses. And I think eventually that 2030 level use talked about you said it for a reason. I'm sure that is effectively when most smart people thought AGI would hit when we hit that point in time I actually think most enterprises are going to be completely disrupted and I don't think they know what's coming. And that's why in the end I've talked about the reason we need tokenization is because I don't know if public companies are going to produce the returns that people think they will be once we get to 2030. So that's the way I kind of line it all up.

>> I'm glad you dropped that last line there because that was exactly the sort of the aha moment that I had as you were talking about it. Uh I mean we've already seen the public company participation rate declining over the years already and kind of the the picture that you're painting back to the um Sam Alman one person billion dollar company more and more small businesses being created not as many public again that's a trend we're already seeing this only accelerates the trend so then how does the average person get to invest if they don't have all these companies to invest into and then it clicked for me before you said it but then that's where the tokenization comes into place

>> exactly because you can invest in anything. And I think that's what's going to happen over time. And that's the beauty of Bitcoin. It's the it's the way that I connect it back that people that try to separate Bitcoin from crypto are making a mistake. People that are trying to say, well, Bitcoin is a scam on the Trady side. And I'm like, well, Bitcoin is the sum of the ecosystem right now of crypto, but eventually it will be the sum of the ecosystem of tokens and all things will be tokens. So, Bitcoin becomes the sum of every asset that you have in some framework. And at the end of the day, that's really what the S&P 500 is. You ask anyone that invested in 2010, their biggest mistake. Their biggest mistake was not investing in the S&P 500. If you invested in venture, if you invested in all, and you add up the 15 years, almost nothing is beating the S&P 500. Nothing is beating the NASDAQ. So you may have for three months, for six years, for nine years, but once you got to 2022, all of these things have kind of worked out that no assets are actually beating not only Bitcoin, but they weren't beating the S&P 500. They certainly weren't beating the NASDAQ. And I think over time, you'll see the NASDAQ and S&P start to give up the ghost to Bitcoin. And that that is been the moment that I thought would be the acceleratory point is once AI gets there. And that's why I say the purest AI trade is the only thing that AI can't destroy. The only thing it can't destroy is Bitcoin. in my opinion.

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So, let's pivot into Bitcoin. Um, I definitely want to talk about that. So, you know, every year I go speak at this conference up in Vancouver, uh, VR, Vancouver Resource Investor Conference, like 10,000 people. It's like, you know, gold and silver miners basically. And I'm the token Bitcoin guy that go speak there, you know, and, uh, and and when I'm there, it's just constant doom and gloom. Constant doom and gloom because that's how you sell gold, right? Uh the financial system is going to collapse, the dollar's going to die, we're all going to go back to a MadMax scenario. We're going to shave our gold to pay for our food or whatever, right? And uh I get tired of that, you know, like I I'm an optimist. Like I believe in this like, you know, abundant future. And so to hear that that's the way to sell gold. It it kind of gets, you know, depressing and discouraging. And I and and it kind of made me flip and realize like Bitcoin doesn't need that. We don't need death and destruction. We don't need uh the end of the dollar for Bitcoin to survive. And I recently one of many people who got to debate Peter Schiff on Zero Hedge a few months ago. And I just said, "Peter, your whole argument comes down to gold's been money for 5,000 years, and that's fine." And and Bitcoin can't overcome that, but let's talk about the future because how does gold work in an agentic world, right? And I think that's that's where we have them.

So, let's talk about that. Um, it seems like for whatever reason, we can we can call it the four-year cycle. Many people are still calling it dead for some reason when it seems to be right on Q. Uh we can call it a four-year cycle. We can say that AI has sucked all the oxygen or all the capital out of the market and that's caused Bitcoin to to decline. Um but you say that AI can't survive without it for the valuation reasons etc. So what does this mean for Bitcoin? Are we going to continue to see it bleed while AI continues to boom as you're saying for a long time? Um or where does that sort of equilibrium start to sort of transfer back to Bitcoin?

I I act so I'm trying to figure the best way to answer this that in a way I as people get to know me and you've you've watched enough of me at this point. Um my father at a very early age told me everything you will ever hear in life from any person is an opinion not a fact. >> Yeah. >> And so >> I saw you talk about your dad taught you how to bet on horses too, right? >> Yes. He did that. And and that was the whole thing is I think in a in a two-part system which is everything to me is a bet meaning I could be wrong I could be right and a basian philosophy that any new information in an unbiased way you have to change your opinion or at least change your odds. You don't have to change the opinion but if something goes from an 83% chance to a 49% chance you better have changed that whole thing. And I I've written a a paper in Substack about how the most asymmetric bet I've ever seen in my life is Bitcoin. And the reason I came to that, that doesn't mean it will happen, but I'm going to get to your the answer to the question of what you're saying right now for people who are depressed on it.

Um the trady component that I probably underestimated in the last I want to say year and a half cuz last year I was shocked at how well Bitcoin had traded in kind of the six months leading into when we got up to 120. And the reason was we had two sell the news events in in Bitcoin. We had the ETF launch and then we had something unthinkable to me which I I'm sure nobody really truly thought maybe someone in one of the the super PACs but um the fact that the US government had a president elected on a crypto positive stance was shocking to me. The fact that I lit read a paper with Scott Besson you know at the New York Economic Club six weeks ago that basically talked about the future is the digital assets. the future. Like to think that we'd be at a point where someone I know very well and Scott Besson and someone who's been in the industry a long time would say this. I I would not have thought that would happen in 22 2022 uh as of 2022. The reason that's important is if you take those two events, Bitcoin is basically back to where it was or just above when the ETF launch happened or at least in the very time after. That was a sell the news event. the Trump presidency, the memecoin, that was a sell the news event and somehow it's been able to go sideways during this period. If this was a stock like Apple or Google, there were plenty of times where Apple was unchanged for two years. So, this four-year cycle thing to me, I view it very differently, which is I look at it as how much was run into it, where is the money coming from? We all know it has to come from the fiat system. So, this is the most positive thing I can say to you today for everyone paying attention.

When I say AI is going to dominate things, the easiest part of the AI trade is over officially. It's over. And I said that um in May of this year when I called the when I started doing my videos on the AI midcycle slowdown, the midcycle slowdown in in AI was all about the second derivative. When you hit the second derivative of new news, when all of a sudden people realize that memory is something we need forever, as they did with Micron, SKHix, and Samsung, I was buying Micron at 60 to 100 all last year going, "How are you guys missing this?" I haven't had a 20 bagger in my career. I didn't ride it all the way to a 20 bagger, but I ran it to a 10bagger. And the thing is, it's over. Like, if someone said, "Now, you still believe in memory." Yeah, but we just went from 60 to 1,200. We've pulled back to 850. If we're lucky, we'll get to 5,000. That's now over the next 5 years, 6 years. We're not doing another one. So, we've hit the second derivative with Bitcoin. That's not the case. The AI trade, the volatility right now on a 60-day rolling basis is 100 mark. That's where we are. 60 days 100 Bitcoin 30 we have taken an asset which everyone thought was too volatile we've put people into a trade where they rode something from 100 say to 1,200 and now back to 800 that is like Bitcoin that they are adjusting the way that they have to make money in AI to speed and these parabas parabas these hockey stick charts are what crypto was built on well now it's happening in the public markets for what you have to do to invest It's over though. From this point, the enterprises are now entering a new field. You never again get the chance to buy a bunch of infrastructure companies where they're getting trillions of dollars from the hyperscalers. From this point on, this is not about that. They've built in that next three years that we talked about. It's not going to be unfinanced. But no company is going to get revenues growing big enough because the enterprises can't do that. We already have 30 multiples on a lot of big ones. So what'll happen is it's going to get boring in AI. It's going to be 20% a year in the S&P 500. That's not sexy enough for people. They need to find some beta. And that beta doesn't exist from health care companies like insurance companies knocking off 5% of their expenses and then getting a 20% earnings growth because of the the leverage that comes on reducing your expenses. So we're actually entering the boring part, which is the productivity part. The exciting part is the buildout part. And the only thing left in the buildout is the financial guardrails to deal with the AI agents. That is the next trade. And I believe fully by the time we get into a year from now, if you got if we have an anniversary one year of this and you and I get do this again, consumer agents will be the story. And the amount of transactions that will be happening will be enormous. And just think about Stripe wanted to buy PayPal. Why did they want to buy PayPal? What's happening? We are at the point now where we're getting ready for consumer agents. Apple breaks to all-time highs. Why the AI trade is going down. Meta starts to say that they're getting closer on this front. Everything is starting to change now in the AI trade. And I think the easy money's over and now it's the productivity gains and some boring 20% a year in the S&P.

>> I chuckled when you said that because 20% gains being boring. the, you know, Ray Dallio's all-weather portfolio is chugging along at, you know, six percent or six and a half percent and the 6040 portfolio is lucky to do six and a half percent and a 401, you know, or your your typical 401k is at about 7.2%. So, oh, so it's a boring 20%. That means your money doubles every three and a half years, by the way. >> Yeah. But over the last five years, we've had what three 20 plus percent corrections. So, unfortunately, there is no free lunches. So, the sharp ratio is not that good. But uh you you are you are compounding. >> Yeah, you are compounding. You are compounding.

So I guess to bring that back uh I think what you said about the four-year cycle with Bitcoin is that you don't look at the timing like Bitcoin doesn't study a calendar. Um you're looking at the underlying mechanics of what's driving the market. So liquidity flows, etc. Back I told you when I wrote the cryptocurrency newsletter, u my partner at the time, he was a master technical analyst. Like he was a wizard on that stuff. I don't put a lot of credit into that. I'm a fundamental analyst, right? I'm looking for the underlying mechanics of what moves the market. Um, and he reads the tea leaves, as I would consider, but he was really good. And it was always shocking to me how the tea leaves seemed to match up with the underlying fundamentals. It just seemed uncanny. And so, going back to the four-year cycle, the mechanics of each cycle have definitely changed. At the peak of 2021, Jerome Pal came on TV after saying, "We're not thinking about thinking about raising rates." And he announced and went into the fastest rate cycle in history. which brought the price of Bitcoin down and this cycle it seemed like we're going into a rate cutting cycle. So it's like certainly different mechanics but sure enough 18 months after the having right on Q you know the price the price cratered and it looks like it looks like the low based off of just cycle theory again and I don't believe that Bitcoin has a calendar but you know the low should be in September October and when you look at let's move on to the Fed. So now when you look at what the Fed's doing, what Worsh is doing, the way they're changing the way they calculate um inflation, which gives them cover to now be more accommodative to allow this this economy to grow, all that seems to be ramping up and looks like it's probably going to be pushing Bitcoin higher right around September, October of this year. So um it just seems maybe it's uncanny. Again, it's not obviously the calendar, but it's just the underlying mechanics.

But what is your you mentioned the the Trump administration so obviously Trump but Howard Lutnik and Scott Basant and uh Kevin Worsh now all of them are proponents of Bitcoin. I mean Kevin Worsh was on on the news what a month ago saying that for under 40 people Bitcoin is your is your gold. Um obviously Scott Bent is is very bullish on it as well and Howard Lutnick of course billions of dollars into that through his canour funds. So back let's go back to just like the the global macro picture. So with the Trump administration uh with Scott Bant and Warst there, it seems like this regime change at the Fed is trying to be more accommodative and we can see the Trump administration's push to bring you know onshore a lot of the manufacturing, robotics, automation, energy, etc. So looking from a macro lens and sort of what's been shaping up the Trump policies and the team that's been assembled to put that together, are you bullish on the economy over the next couple of years? And does that help this whole boom, the AI and Bitcoin boom sort of take off?

>> Yeah, I I I am bullish on it and to me it's it's an obvious thing and I'll I'll I'll take you through it. I do >> it's not obvious for everybody. I know I and but when I say this I I I I hope people will will be able to kind of forget the AI side for a second in terms of the productivity gains. I'll actually go through why at least for the up into the next election people should should be positive and even after I I just don't see unless someone says we're not in a race with China which I'll I'll go through. I just want to make sure on on the four-year cycle because I do think this is important for people to to hear. First of all, for people who are baseball fans, if someone comes up to the plate and they're three for three, it doesn't mean the fourth time is going to happen again. We have three data points on this four-year cycle. This is a new asset. So, it's like the fact that people actually talk about this is I'm not superstitious, but I can see where people fall into it. Number two, I I I have learned something in my years of now finally going to conferences and speaking, getting to meet the community. I love the community. It's such a better place for me than Wall Street. It's the way I grew up. It's it's what I understand. But the number one thing for me in kind of hanging around in the community is the community is still the energy of of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not about the ETF. There's no energy in the ETF. That is put in half a basis point a week type garbage. The energy is from the ideologists who got involved. And I can see where they would be angry with the US government basically getting involved and with everything that oh this is going to be a decentralized thing. now it's going to become like I get it. So if you bought into it because of this and you've made a ton of money, why not get rid of a bunch of it? If you believe as a technology person does that quantum can break it, I could see where you'd be reducing the amount of your assets as AI speeds up. But most importantly for the energy, the people around the globe that dominate the movement if they buy into the four-year cycle or they see signs of it, this is like PTSD. There's no way they're not going to run for the hill. So I have >> a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? >> Yeah. because there's just not enough energy coming from Trapfi yet. For that energy, there needs to be fundamentals. For the fundamentals, there needs to be revenues in the tokens. That needs consumer agents. So again, I'm going to say it again. The agents are the most important thing for for people to be positive on the economy. First of all, the economy is booming. Like I don't know how to say this to people. It's not happening on the consumer level, but when you have a 5 to 6% deficit at the government level, meaning they're spending five to six more than the receipts they're taking in every year, as Lyn Alden has say, there's nothing to stop. You can't stop the train. >> So to fight that is one thing, but then to add in that this year there's a trillion dollars of capex just from the companies we know. going forward every capex number has to be much higher because it's a global thing because it's a enterprise thing they're going to need sovereignty they're spending money so if you want AI what we've realized is you have to spend lots of money for compute lots of money for cyber lots of money for all of this and so there's a race and that race is capitalism competing with other people can't not do it and Morgan Stanley does it China can't if if China's doing it the US has to do it because we all believe AGI. So if you've ever taken a thing and you've gone, you know what, I'm going to wait. I'm going to be patient on this. If you're patient, you believe in obsolescence. Every single company I've met, every single hedge fund, every single person believes they are in a race against obsolescence. And that is why I feel confident in this capitalism is breaking down theory. But in China and the US, there is no way that they can allow the other country to win for fear of military. And so this is much bigger than just us. This is much bigger than the bond market. This is much bigger than the stock market. And oh by the way, the data supports that because the profit margins and the companies are rising. The stock market is going up relentlessly regardless of the bad news. So sometimes you just look at it and you go, am I hearing too many people making money off this? And the answer is I'm not hearing people bragging about it. The people that are making money are actually the people that are at risk of obsolescence and they don't want to lose their money. So they're banking on this happening. So that's my take on why it has to continue at least for the next two to four years.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The the market is uh extremely resilient and um it never ceases to amaze people apparently that keep making these calls that everything is going to come crashing down posting charts about the hor you know the Hormuz Canal and like uh if these ships don't pick back up it's all collapsing down. But yet somehow we've managed to figure out ways to reroute and reduce oil and it seems to just kind of keep going on back to your point that nothing stops this train. So you wouldn't put all your money in one stock. So why have your whole life in one single country? Now if you've thought about another passport, Italy and citizenship might just be what you've been looking for. Italy has one of the most underrated golden visas in all of Europe. Just a 250,000 euro investment threshold. And with citizenship, you can make that investment into Bitcoin, not some risky business venture or real estate that you don't actually want. Approval times are usually about 3 to 6 months, and you don't put any money in until your visa's approved. Plus, with the Golden Visa, there's no physical residency that's required. You can get full Shen access from day one, and it's renewable forever. Now, Italy puts you at the heart of Europe, and with Shenan access, it gives you flexibility across 29 countries. If you want another passport and you want your investment to have Bitcoin exposure like me, then citizenship may be the answer you're looking for. So go to citizenship.com/markmos and check it out.

You said for the rest of this term, so for the next couple years, you see the accommodative Fed, you see the economy humming along, you see the buildout continuing, um, which continues to push the economy. >> Uh, yeah, for the next two years. And the way that I kind of live my life is we don't know what'll happen three years from now. normally um let's just invest based on the next two years everything I've seen is that the market is the discounting vehicle but it usually discounts 3 to 6 months ahead and if we started seeing the stock market acting poorly and just so people hear this I've built a lot of models over my my years the number one thing I care about when it comes to the US economy is the stock market drainer said it I'm the same way and it's the yearoveryear performance right now whether it's year-over-year price or it's year-over-year earnings things. They're both massive. So, until we start seeing that roll over, meaning the pace slows down, the second derivative starts to slow, if the S&P 500 at the end of the year is the same price it is today, then guess what, guys? That means the six-month rate of change will be close to zero, and that'll be a warning sign. We had one of those warning signs recently, um, last year, obviously, when we had the liberation day, but it also happened in the first quarter of this year. We had private credit blowing up. And I was on my videos. is I was like, "Hey guys, we got to pay attention to this because this thing is warning that if AI is this good, why is the S&P 500 the same price it was 6 months ago and then we immediately came out of that. We took off again and so there's no warning signs in my opinion right now."

Somebody who's come on hot and heavy, at least on my on my radar on on X on Twitter, is James Thorne and I recently talked to him and he believes that when you sort of compare where we're at in this market cycle to other market cycles that um things are actually cheap and we need to rerate things and so that PE ratios should probably be much higher for this part of the cycle than we're in right now. Um, so you know, when we think about maybe the markets are overheated, a lot of these names are are are too expensive, do you think it's possible that maybe for where we're at and what's about to happen that maybe they are too cheap and maybe we should rerate some of these higher and so maybe they they they're not as bubbly as they may look in today's terms.

>> Personally, I think that um would probably happen if the demographics were not the way they are. And I think this is um a mistake that everyone makes which is the reason the country is voting socialism in the cities is mainly from college educated people whose parents have made money and they haven't made money yet. As long as the parents are alive, that money is going to sit in index funds. It's not going to go into individual names pushing multiples up. It's not going to be through leverage. They already own their houses. like you need some leverage to come into the system to move things at higher levels. It's just very difficult. So I don't see that happening and I could see the argument. But there's another reason why and this gets into my skepticism. I've talked that I believe that we will be in constant multiple compression that the enthusiasm that people see for AI has a very very painful ending for public companies. As I've said, like I think five, four years from now, 5 years from now, whenever AGI hits, if I if we sat here, Mark, for another two hours, I know I could convince you as someone who understands finance and understands the way companies work that at the end of the day, it's about Moes. It's about competition, it's about efficiency, it's about productivity. We know smaller companies like never before can compete with bigger companies. We've seen it. We've seen what Anthropic's done. It's never happened in the history of the world. So we know that it's happening. The problem is this concept of cyclicality. Like gold for example, Peter Schiff basically runs a gold company. So whatever he says about gold, he's speaking his book. This is how he makes money. So we know that. >> But the problem with gold is a gold miner has traded cheap forever. Why do gold miners always trade cheap? >> They trade cheap because gold could fall and then the price would fall. There's no diversity in the company. There's no it's cyclical. It just goes down or up with the price. If AI disrupts all businesses, eventually they should all trade to some degree like an uncertain future, like cyclical. So, the reason software stocks came down so much is not because their business today sucks, they're still printing money. It's because the market is building in a disruption or an uncertainty on the future value of their business, which instead of calling it terminal value, what I've said is they're making every company a cyclical company. AI turns everyone from a growth company into a cyclical company because eventually you get your head knocked off by AI. And so I actually believe what's happening in the market and the reason we're not going to get enthusiasm is part demographics, but it's also part this concept of there's no more terminal value outside of three years, meaning take all those future cash flows and put them at some probability that's much lower. There's no more modes. And then secondly, once you do that, you're turning everything into a cyclical company, which means it should trade at a singledigit multiple. And I think that's where we're headed for a good majority of the companies.

>> You don't need two hours to convince me. I'm I agree with you on that. I think we're on the same page. Uh I think we could wrap it up with that. Uh uh there's a whole another conversation we get into and I'll plant the seed for the next one. But you know, you just kind of talked about how the whole finance industry is built off this discounted future cash flows and how you think now that should all sort of be disrupted because of, you know, the risk that's being that that AI is presenting. And so when you think about whether I buy a Google bond, you know, will they have the money to pay me back from that investment, the data center investment or whatever they did with it, or you know, if I'm buying a PE ratio, but if all these companies future at risk past three years or whatever, like what does that mean to the discounted future cash flows versus like what Sailor's done over at Strategy is doing something differently where when when he takes your money, he buys the asset. So he's paying you off of the asset. He has it today. It's not like I hope to have the cash flow in the future. And that is something that's breaking most people's brains, but that's a whole another rabbit hole we can come back to at some point.

>> Can I leave Can I give you one thing on that? Just two minutes because Michael Sailor is the reason that >> he convinced me on a bunch of things. He connected my Brazil experience back to Bitcoin. But I I do want to say to everyone, for all the stuff Michael Sailor gets, the thing I most appreciated on this concept that we just talked about, >> he lived it. Yeah. >> Meaning he lived that he was getting destroyed by the Mag 7. He had a software company. He had a billion dollars of cash sitting on it and he had the choice. Okay, I was at least receiving 5% a year on my money or 4% of my money. But now you've taken it to zero. Yeah. >> So now you as the government have said rates will be zero. So now here I am a company that's competing on the one side against Microsoft. Replace Microsoft with AI >> and at the same point you're letting me have zero money on this. So I can either just collapse, I can try to compete with Microsoft. There's no chance I can do that. The same way getting an enterprise to compete with AI. Every enterprise under the scenario you just described will be in Michael Sailor's spot at some point in my opinion. So the reason I realize that this would be the endgame is Michael Sailor's already lived it. He already had to make that choice and he is always going to be the person who made the choice first. There will never be any company that owns as much Bitcoin as Michael Sailor does. So he made the choice back then. That's why I have tremendous respect for what he did. But it also filled in that hole for me of the winners versus losers because he was David verse Goliath. He gave into this. And so his phrase of you don't find Bitcoin, Bitcoin finds you. It's going to be that story for the rest of time.

>> Yeah. When you seek the sol when you when you when you understand your problem, the solution will appear. And he definitely understood his problem and and then he found the solution that way. Um, I know we I know you got to uh go so we can cut this off here. Um, man, like I said, I've been looking forward to this for so long. Uh, you're a wealth of knowledge. I watch your shows. You have your own YouTube channel. You're on Pomp show every week. You have your Substack. I'm on all that. We'll link to that down below. But you talked about your companies are blowing up. Do you want to shout anything out or draw attention to anything?

>> Yeah, if if people are interested, um, ai.22vresearch.com 22vresearch.com is where I basically take everyone through on not just the YouTube, but then I give them the names in the portfolio that are best suited for AI. I take them through and I do writings specifically to the subscribers. I create a ton of content, a lot of AI generated stuff, videos on trying to help people. The knowledge brain thing that I gave, I I've broken this down very simply for people. There's signal, how you get through all the noise of AI and all the things that we talked about. Mark, I'm trying to be rational and trying to give people the thoughts of someone who is deep in the weeds in it. Number two is alpha, like which name should you focus on as part of the buildout? And if you're looking to outperform, what names can you invest in AI? And then the final thing is the agency side, which is the thing I'm most interested in, which is how do you make sure you and your kids are not going to feel in, you know, losing power as AI accelerates. Empowerment is a really big thing. Uh I grew up poor. I didn't go to the best school. I worked my way through. I know everyone doesn't have the same ability to do that. But with AI, you're democratizing education. You're democratizing the ability to catch up to everyone. And if you take the chance and you go spend it, if everyone builds a Jensen Yuang knowledge brain, and I've had so many people do this, you are shocked at how much you can do in AI. The problem is no one has that one thing to do. And it takes people 30 to 45 minutes. So they can go to that site, they can sign up for it, or they can just watch me for free on YouTube and Substack and just stay on top of things that way, too.

>> Dang it, Jody. Jordy. I mean, now now I'm going to have to go join that and something else to do. I just got Gary Tan's GBrain set up and now I got to go get knowledge. Like, I can't keep up. Okay. Anyway, uh, man, thanks so much. I'm going to make sure we link to all that down below and I'm going to have to go join it and start following along. Uh, thanks so much. Great to finally do it, Mark.