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WHILE NOT TRYING TO ENDANGER THEMSELVES AND TRUMP, I SAY THAT AS INTRODUCTION TO A STORY THAT SOUNDS BIGGER THAN IT IS, BECAUSE TODAY, AFTER QUITE A DELAY, HOUSE REPUBLICAN LEADERS SAY THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO SUBPOENA THE INDIVIDUALS YOU SEE ON YOUR SCREEN, BUT THEY CERTAINLY DELAYED ISSUING SUBPOENAS. THEY ANNOUNCED THIS A WHILE BACK AND NOW FINALLY SIGNED IT. AND WHAT YOU SEE LOOKS LIKE A SMORGASBORD OF SPREADING BLAME AROUND THE CLINTONS. FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL ROBERT MUELLER. WHY IS HE IN THERE? NO ONE KNOWS. BARR, WHO ACTUALLY WAS ATTORNEY GENERAL OVERSEEING THE DOJ AND THE BUREAU OF PRISONS WHEN EPSTEIN DIED, AND WHEN, OF COURSE, THOSE VIDEOS DISAPPEARED. THE COMMITTEE ALSO SAYS THEY'LL SUBPOENA THE DOJ FOR THE DOCUMENTS, WHICH DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES AND PAM BONDI CLAIMED THEY WOULD RELEASE AND NEVER DID. ON THE DOJ SIDE, THEY'RE DISCUSSING WHETHER TO RELEASE AUDIO FROM THEIR UNUSUAL INTERVIEW WITH EPSTEIN. COCONSPIRATOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL, ONE OF THE ODDITIES AND VICTIMS FAMILIES, SAY HYPOCRISIES OF THIS ENTIRE REPUBLICAN OBSESSION IS THAT SO FAR, THE MAIN THING THAT'S HAPPENED WITHIN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS LENIENCY FOR MAXWELL GOING TO AN EASIER PRISON. SO REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO USE THE SUBPOENAS TO FEED HEADLINES THAT THEY MIGHT WANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, BUT THEY DELAYED SIGNING THEM, AND THEY HAVE SUBPOENAED INDIVIDUALS LIKE MUELLER TO KIND OF MAKE A MOCKERY OF THE WHOLE THING. NOW, HERE IS HOW IT'S PLAYING OUT IN RED STATES.
>> WHY ARE YOU COVERING UP THE EPSTEIN FILES?
>> WE'RE JOINED BY NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE WRITER EMILY BAZELON. WELCOME BACK.
>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>> I MENTIONED FIRST THE SUSPICIOUS TIMING. I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH HERE, BUT WE KNOW HOW IT WORKS. SO SOMETIMES OUR JOB IS TO MAKE SURE WE TELL VIEWERS WHY WE'RE SEEING HEADLINES. IF YOU GO ON THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW, YOU SEE REPUBLICANS SUBPOENA ALL THESE PEOPLE. BUT WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG FOR COMER, FOR EXAMPLE, TO EVEN SIGN THESE SUBPOENAS?
>> I MEAN, ONE CAN IMAGINE THAT HE WAS HOPING AND REPUBLICANS ARE HOPING THAT THE STORY WAS GOING TO DIE. RIGHT. BECAUSE TRUMP WANTS TO PUT IT TO REST, HAS MADE THAT VERY CLEAR. HE'S VERY IMPATIENT WITH HIS SUPPORTERS, WHO ARE INSISTING THAT THEY WANT MORE INFORMATION AND IT HASN'T DIED. REPUBLICANS KEEP HEARING ABOUT IT FROM THEIR CONSTITUENTS, AND THEY MADE A DECISION THAT AS A RESULT, THEY HAD TO RESPOND IN SOME WAY. I THINK THAT LISTS THAT YOU PUT ON THE SCREEN SHOWS THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO PUT AS MUCH OF THE BLAME OF THIS AS POSSIBLE ON FORMER DEMOCRATIC OFFICIALS. THERE ARE ONLY TWO REPUBLICANS OR MAYBE SORT OF ISH THREE, IF YOU COUNT BOB MUELLER ON THAT SCREEN.
>> AND YOU KNOW.
>> WHY SUBPOENA FORMER PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON AND NOT PEOPLE WHO WERE MORE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE LAST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, OTHER THAN BARR AND SESSIONS, THE ATTORNEYS GENERAL FROM THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?
>> RIGHT. THE LIST IS INCREDIBLY UNSERIOUS AND UNTARGETED, WHICH MAKES IT LOOK LIKE TO THE VERY END, EVEN AFTER ALL THIS, A LOT OF REPUBLICANS SEE THIS AS POLITICAL CONTENT FARMING RATHER THAN DEALING WITH THE REAL QUESTIONS. THERE ARE QUESTIONS SURROUNDING HIS SUSPICIOUS DEATH AND THE SECRECY. THERE'S QUESTIONS AROUND HIS ORIGINAL SWEETHEART DEAL, WHICH SURVIVOR AND WOMEN'S ADVOCATES HAVE TALKED ABOUT ON THIS PROGRAM AND OTHERS FOR A LONG TIME. I WANT TO GO BACK. IF WE CARED ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE PROSECUTOR, ALEX ACOSTA, WHO'S NOT SUBPOENAED BUT CUT THE ORIGINAL SWEETHEART DEAL THAT WAS SO CONTROVERSIAL. THIS WAS BACK IN OH EIGHT. I'M READING FROM AXIOS. HE REACHED WHAT THEY CALL THIS NON-PROSECUTION AGREEMENT. SO EPSTEIN HAD BASICALLY FAKE TIME. AND IT ENDED WHAT WAS A FEDERAL PROBE THAT COULD HAVE STRETCHED FARTHER. WE KNOW, BECAUSE LATER IT DID. IF YOU CARED ABOUT GETTING TO THE BOTTOM OF NOT ONLY THIS, BUT YOU SAY, OKAY, THE GUY IS DEAD, BUT OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE GETTING AWAY WITH THINGS. IF YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT SEX TRAFFICKING AND THE MISTREATMENT OF WOMEN AND GIRLS, ISN'T THIS SOMEONE YOU'D WANT TO TALK TO?
>> YEAH, FOR SURE. I THINK YOU WOULD WANT TO TALK TO ALEX ACOSTA, WHO WAS THE FEDERAL PROSECUTOR RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS. AND YOU MIGHT WANT TO TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WHO HAD SOME KIND OF OVERSIGHT OVER THOSE DECISIONS AT THE TIME, INSTEAD OF HILLARY CLINTON, FOR EXAMPLE.
>> YEAH. AS FOR TRUMP'S RELATIONSHIP WITH EPSTEIN, THIS WAS A PERSON WHO WAS, AS THE SUBPOENAS REFERENCE, A HIGH FLYING INDIVIDUAL. SO THE FACT THAT HE CONSORTED IN BUSINESS OR EVEN SOCIALLY WITH VARIOUS PEOPLE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A CRIME. WE HAVE A MUCH HIGHER RIGOROUS STANDARD. BUT TRUMP HAS TRIED TO TELL THIS STORY THAT HAS GOT HIMSELF TIED UP IN KNOTS WHERE, OH, MAYBE HE KNEW ENOUGH OR HAD ENOUGH OF A FALLING OUT. MAYBE HE DIDN'T KNOW THE REALLY BAD STUFF, BUT HE KNEW SOME BAD STUFF. SO HE KICKED HIM OUT OF MAR A LAGO. THAT'S THE STORY.
WELL, NEW HEADLINE FROM THE DAILY BEAST. EPSTEIN WAS STILL A MEMBER OF TRUMP'S MAR A LAGO LONG AFTER INDICTMENT. THE REVELATION EPSTEIN WAS ALLEGEDLY STILL A MEMBER OF THE CLUB YEARS AFTER HE THEY USED THIS TERM POACHED. YOU COULD USE DIFFERENT TERMS HIRED AWAY OR KIDNAPED, RIGHT. SEX TRAFFICKED THIS VICTIM FROM THE SPA AT MAR A LAGO IN 2000, THEY SAY, RAISES QUESTIONS OVER TRUMP'S, QUOTE VERSION OF EVENTS. IT'S A SEVEN YEAR GAP. DO THINGS LIKE THIS AGAIN WITHOUT PRESUPPOSING ANYONE'S GUILT, BUT DO THINGS LIKE THIS ADD EVIDENCE TO WHY TRUMP MIGHT BE SO SECRETIVE ABOUT ALL THESE FILES?
>> I MEAN, SURE.
>> BECAUSE THE TIMING SUGGESTS THAT ACTUALLY HIS RELATIONSHIP OR SOME INVOLVEMENT OF EPSTEIN LASTED LONGER INTO THE TIME PERIOD COVERED BY THE INDICTMENT OF EPSTEIN. RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT'S A CRUCIAL PART OF THIS PICTURE. AND WHO KNOWS WHAT EXACTLY WAS GOING ON, BUT ALSO THIS WHOLE IDEA THAT.
>> SOMEONE, QUOTE.
>> STOLE A PERSON WHO WAS WORKING AS A MASSEUSE AT MAR A LAGO, THAT SHE WAS A VICTIM OR COULD HAVE BEEN A VICTIM OF SOME OF EPSTEIN'S SEX CRIMES. THAT'S ALSO SUPER FISHY AND MAKES YOU WONDER WHAT EXACTLY THE FOLKS AT MAR A LAGO KNEW ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING. JUST THAT WORD STOLE IS SUCH A STRANGE WORD TO USE IN THIS CONTEXT. AND YET THAT WAS WHAT TRUMP SAID.
>> SO IF HE KNEW MORE, THEN WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY DO? NOT JUST LEGALLY, WHERE WE'VE ALL BEEN REMINDED PRESIDENTS AREN'T PROSECUTED IN OFFICE NO MATTER WHAT YOU FIND. BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN THE WIDER SPECTRUM, WHERE LIFE IS UNPREDICTABLE? THAT'S WHY READING THE NEWS CAN BE INTERESTING, BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY FIND, GOSH, WHO KNEW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE THING? BUT HERE WE ARE IN AUGUST, AFTER A LOT OF TRUMP SCANDALS AND PROBLEMS, SELF-DEALING, CRYPTO ABUSE OF POWER, CUTTING 9 MILLION PEOPLE OFF OF HEALTH CARE. BUT THIS SEEMS TO BE THE THING THAT IS DRAGGING HIM DOWN MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE THIS TERM.
>> BECAUSE IT MATTERS A LOT TO SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS, RIGHT? IN THEIR NARRATIVE, THERE'S THIS CONSPIRACY INVOLVING THE MOST POWERFUL GLOBAL ELITES, AND DONALD TRUMP WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE HERO WHO SAVED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FROM THESE LIES AND CORRUPTION. IF IT TURNS OUT THAT HE IS INSTEAD REALLY IMPLICATED IN THIS STORY, THEN THAT'S A DIFFERENT SET OF FACTS. IN A SENSE, IT'S STRANGE THAT THERE IS SO MUCH RESISTANCE TO THE IDEA THAT HE'S IMPLICATED, BECAUSE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY, WE'VE HAD THESE PICTURES OF HIM WITH EPSTEIN, THIS KNOWLEDGE OF THEM KNOWING EACH OTHER SOCIALLY QUITE WELL FOR A LONG TIME. SO THE IDEA THAT HE'S COMPLETELY UNSULLIED BY ALL OF THIS IS, LIKE, HARD TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT WAS PART OF HIS SUPPORTERS VIEW. AND YET THEY REALLY DID PRESENT HIM AS THE PERSON WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO SOLVE THE WHOLE PUZZLE. AND NOW I THINK IT'S HARDER TO KEEP GOING WITH THAT VERSION OF EVENTS, THOUGH THEY SEEM REALLY DETERMINED TO BLAME OTHER PEOPLE, LIKE ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI, FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING, RATHER THAN LAYING IT AT TRUMP'S FEET HIMSELF.
>> AND POLITICALLY, THERE'S A BLUEPRINT AND A MUSCLE MEMORY FOR THAT, RIGHT? WHICH IS WHAT'S SO STRIKING. IT HAS OFTEN WORKED ON THAT SIDE TO SAY, REMEMBER OBAMA, REMEMBER BIDEN, HEY, HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP. YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST LIKE ITS OWN LANGUAGE, BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT HERE, THE ULTIMATE DISCOVERY THAT THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD LUKE SKYWALKER AT THE HEAD OF THEIR TEAM, AND IT'S ACTUALLY DARTH VADER. WHAT COULD CHANGE THE TRAJECTORY OF THE SECOND TERM?
>> I MEAN, MAYBE YOU CERTAINLY COULD IMAGINE IT SHAKING THE FAITH OF SOME OF TRUMP'S OWN SUPPORTERS. AND THAT'S WHY I FIND THIS LENIENCY FOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL PUZZLING. I MEAN, I GUESS IF SHE EXONERATES TRUMP SO MUCH OR GIVES THEM SOMETHING ELSE THEY THINK IS USEFUL, THAT THAT IS MEANINGFUL, BUT WHO IS GOING TO BELIEVE THAT IF SHE IF THERE'S A QUID PRO QUO, IF SHE GETS PARDONED OR SOME KIND OF BETTER TREATMENT IN PRISON, WHICH IS ALREADY HAPPENING BECAUSE SHE'S NOW IN MINIMUM SECURITY WHEN SHE WASN'T BEFORE, ALL OF THAT SET OF QUESTIONS SURROUNDING HOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DEALING WITH HER, I FIND QUITE PUZZLING. IF THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO SHOW HOW