Transcription
All right. Uh so, we have another mic in the room, a Mike Winger. So, it's it's your turn then and go ahead.
>> I see lots of books behind you. What Where are you at? Are you in grad school or
>> No, I'm just I'm at home.
>> [laughter]
>> That's just Yeah, I just I don't read those. I just put them there for the sake of how they look. Behind me. Um uh my name is Mike Winger. I'm in uh LA. Uh And I have a YouTube channel with my name, Mike Winger, like a bird. And um I got a few questions for I got four questions, so I'll try to get through all of them. I really appreciate you taking the time to to spend with us today. Really grateful for that.
Um the first one is um what do you think are the essential truths of the Christian faith?
>> I think the essential truths are um salvation by grace through faith. Uh works, you know, have no We have no merit uh to bring to the table with respect to salvation. That involves the work of the cross. Um I I do think atonement I believe in substitutionary atonement. Doesn't mean that other aspects of the atonement, you know, aren't valid. I don't feel compelled to pick a view of the atonement. I think they all have, you know, something worthwhile to say. It's a It's a multifaceted thing. But usually when people would gravitate to one of the other views, they do it to get rid of substitution. I think that's wrong. Um you know, to to me those are the fundamental things. Now, you you could ask yourself, well, could you have somebody who's like a oneness Pentecostal and can they still be a Christian? Uh I I think so. I think if if Christ is the lone object of salvation that then they're clear about um you know, what he did on the cross as being the the the exclusive, you know, means of salvation, their works don't have anything to do with it. I think they can be messed up on, you know, trinitarianism or Christology or whatever uh and still be a believer. Um and that's not a that's not a novel position. That's kind of been an old position, you know, all the way back through church history. So, I I think at the end of the day it's it's the uh it's the story of the cross and and parsing that correctly are the are the core things.
>> Mhm.
Um all right, my second question is um what do you think are the most important apologetic issues right now, but I want to ask it kind of in two on two sides. One would be apologetic issues within the church, and then second apologetic issues outside of the church.
>> Boy, within the church um
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> Oh, apologetics is so broad, so I guess I need to think, you know, broadly here. I think that that the gender and the transgender issue will be a big deal. Uh it it is it will continue to be a big deal in the church. I think the propensity, at least it seems to me, the propensity to redefine the gospel in terms of social justice is a huge issue. I mean, that that's that's our identity right there. Um and along with that, you know, pluralism I think will still be a a big issue. Uh outside the church, there's lots and lots of things that I wish more Christians were thinking about um but they get distracted by other things. I think transhumanism is a huge issue. I think synthetic biology, nanotechnology, all of these sorts of things are are just looming on the horizon to um crush the faith of many if they're not thought about well. Um you know, I think the the, you know, neurotheology, again, the the whole issue of consciousness I would put in the same category. That these these are things that Christians need to think about very carefully and and very well and and uh frame the discussion in in a meaningful way and an honest way as well um and not um not be persuaded that
>> [snorts]
>> they're not allowed to do that. They we are allowed to do that.
>> [laughter]
>> You know, we're thinking people just like anybody else um but the those those things that I just mentioned, they get to the core of and they're going to get to the core, you know, when when we get serious about uh creating humans from scratch you know, through through synthetic biology and and mixing genetic material um you know, that the powers of nanotechnology such as they are all these things are going to they're they're already married together but the the marriage is going to be even tighter. So, it takes us into what is a human. You know, that's even bigger than what's gender. Um you know, what how how do we think about ourselves? You know, should we be going down these trajectories? Are we really trying to be as gods? Should we you know, should we do that? Isn't that the edenic vision, Mike? Isn't that the edenic vision that we should get rid of disease? And you know, that death is unnatural. You shouldn't we be pursuing these things? You know, isn't this our divine destiny you know, to be as gods? To get rid of you know, to restore the the the human condition the human planet to Eden to edenic like state. You know, that that that power is within our grasp if we you know, pursue all these things to to their their their terminal point. Um you know, that those all those things raise theological issues and and obviously significantly um significant ethical issues. So, I think those are a big deal.
>> And you say that I I've actually I'm a youth pastor. I've I've dealt with the issue of uh possible cloning things like that with our youth. We do like Q&A and they're the ones bringing up these questions.
>> Yeah.
>> And um I I I would So we So we wrestle with them and talk about them, and I think that they find comfort in the fact that we're allowed to think about these issues.
>> Well, I I mean I And the question of, you know, if, you know, extraterrestrial life is is a big one. That that's a paradigm changer, uh even though it it it wouldn't necessarily have to be. Um if you found if we discovered intelligent extraterrestrial life, well, then it's an automatic, you know, paradigm changer for a lot of people, but to me that that goes back to a poor understanding of the image of God. I wouldn't I wouldn't be troubled by it, but I think most of the church would be terribly troubled by it, cuz they're they're thinking about, you know, hey, you know, is my favorite latte on on sale at Starbucks this week, you know. They're not thinking about transhumanism. You know, the way the way you would, you know, as a as a as a youth pastor and somebody interested in apologetics, you have your head in this stuff. Well, most Christians don't. But your your youth are going to get a steady diet of this pretty much every week, you know, online, popular movies, TV shows, mov- you know, it These are all big themes. So, it's it doesn't surprise me at all that they're coming up with the questions.
>> Um okay, I've another question here. Um What in your mind um I'm I'm trying to think how to word this correctly, but but I've been envisioning in my mind as a pastor, like what kind of variety of people would I be comfortable with fellowshipping at a church that I pastor?
>> Mhm.
>> And that my So my question to you is, what issues are not worth dividing over in the sense that all these people should be able to fellowship together?
>> Yeah, well, the the first thing you run into there is is my my um list is not going to be the same as anybody else's list in the groups. [laughter] So it has the great potential to implode uh from the beginning. Uh I do have to think about this a lot because um you know, of different media opportunities that I'm asked to do and you know, should I do this and should I not do that and you know, it's a little bit different, you know, in a church. But there are there are a number of sort of silly things that if you have I I would say even even something that's not terribly silly. If you have someone in your church that just can't fellowship with you or anybody else because let's say they're not a Calvinist. Okay, well, you you can you can put that on the nice list all you want, but that person's going to make it an issue of division. So, I would say at close to the top of the list are are not having not having divisive people. People that that division just floats their boat. I mean, this is what they're about. Uh they they they're insecure and they need the conformity of ideas to to feel accepted and welcome and comfortable. Um you know, whatever their insecurities due to is obviously a whole different, you know, issue, but it just the issue of division itself I think is something that we need to be very wary of and and keep out of you know, our own fellowship community. And I'm not saying you just write the person off the first time, but if you know this is a pattern of their life and they and they literally just need and want and and believe that they're contending for the faith that everybody else needs to think like them. That is just poison. So, I think that's a big deal. But as as far as like issue issues, I go back to the core ideas of the gospel. Do you understand what the gospel is? Okay, do you understand what the gospel isn't? Um that that has to be right near the top of the list because if you can if you can look at the the person who disagrees with you and understand that this person is in the family of God right next to you. You know, this might be a little Pollyannaish, but that ought to make you treat the person well even when you disagree with them.
>> Amen.
>> And if you can do that, if you can do that, that takes a lot of things off or it leaves a lot of things on the table. You know, the creation thing, the eschatology thing. Um even if if people are struggling with the role of of of works in the Christian life, again the the the the point is zero in on there is is merit. I I've I've I try not to talk to to any Christians about faith and works. I I try to get them to think of of the of the the struggle as faith versus merit. I change the work to merit. Because even if they're they're thinking, "Well, God doesn't like me as much now anymore because I went off and did this sin." Well, if if they realize that okay, you're right, you know, this this that which cannot be obtained by moral perfection cannot be lost by moral imperfection. I get that. They can still be troubled. They can still struggle and they they can still have questions, but at least you know they understand the gospel. But if if they're in there talking about how hey, we can be perfected and perfectibility and we've all got to do this. We've got to have these ducks in a row and the rest of your going on your way to hell because you don't see you know, the the role of of this behavior or that be again, that's poison. So, I think the the gospel is really the core of that, but you can have that all worked out in your head. And the people you're you're wishing had it worked out in their head, they can be viewing you like as you know, Judas Iscariot. So, yeah, it's it's tough.
>> Okay, I got I this is this is to me a really important question because I think it will apply to a lot of the people who well, some of the people who really follow your work. So, um here's the question. What advice would you give to a believer um who has some uncommon views and it's hindering them in fellowshipping in a local congregation with a local group of people?
>> Mhm.
>> Well, I would try to convince them that that this this thing that you really value, this doctrinal position or whatever, this interpretation of a passage, again, is peripheral and subservient to the centrality of the gospel. In other words, it's not a hill to die on. Um this is this is not dying If you If you die for this cause, are you really dying for your faith? Well, you know, not really. You're dying for this position. Okay, positions on interpretations of specific passages are not the faith. Now, they may have tethered their idea to the gospel. You know, they they may be defining what it means to be a Christian by, "Okay, you know, we have to be the believer of the flat earth now." or something, you know. You know, that that that's what it means to have a high view of scripture. We can't be Christians if we don't have a high view. You know, all this this concatenation of of, you know, logic that they go to. So, I would say, again, try to to say, "Well, you can have this position. It can be important to you, and we're going to we're going to try to honor its importance to you, but to really, you know, be here and and not be divisive, because scripture is very clear that we shouldn't be divisive. Um to avoid that, you need to see this as secondary to, you know, to the gospel itself. And And just just try to get them to to separate some of the links that they've created in their head without necessarily attacking the idea that that you might sit there and think, "Dude, you don't have a prayer being correct here." Um but instead of of attacking that, try to sever some of the links so that they can they can distinguish between something that's truly essential and something that, you know, is is related but not that thing. These two things are are related, but they are not the same thing.
>> Awesome. Thank you very very much.
>> Mhm.