Transcription
[Music] n [Music] [Music] today in Christianity we are battling a lot of voices out there and one of those is that the Book of Revelation was not written in 95 AD but rather in 65 AD and someone's going to ask, "Well, why should it matter?" Listen, it does matter. It matters because it changes the outcome of the Book of Revelation completely. Was the Book of Revelation complete at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD? Does it matter between 65 AD and 95 AD? It matters so much that it actually could jeopardize your understanding of the word of God to the point of even being able to interpret the word of God for your own life. It could even come down to the point of salvation. Why? Because do you believe in what God's word says literally? A lot of people want to spiritualize the Bible. That's a dangerous thing to do. The Bible says clearly what it means, and God meant what he said. And so, with what you're about to hear, it is so vitally important that you stay tuned and tune in with all of your attention to this profound argument of these days: that the Bible is as it presents itself, or is it what some want it to [Music] say?
Okay, first of all, it's great having both of you guys here because, uh, you guys come from your very, very specific expertise in certain areas. And so, what I want to talk about is certainly, uh, preterism, but Dr. Paul, also this thing about, um, Christian Palestinianism. And a lot of people may not be familiar with the term, but they have certainly heard about Palestinianism, the plight of the Palestinians, and, uh, all that. So, what do we start with that? Let's look at, at, at what you've experienced. You've written on this, and God is raising you up to be a voice to address this Christian Palestinianism. What is it?
Well, I'll take you to Bethlehem, March 2012, and a conference that was headlined, "The Christ at the Checkpoint Conference." It was organized by Bethlehem Bible College, which is the only professing Evangelical Bible College in the Palestinian, so-called Palestinian territories. And Bethlehem Bible College brought together Evangelical pastors, teachers, theologians from around the world to talk about the whole Israel-Palestinian issue. So, you had on the platform men like Tony Campolo, um, you had, uh, John Ortberg, I know who are very well known here in the States. You had Pastor Joel Hunter, pastor of a mega-church in Florida, who's one of Barack Obama's spiritual advisors. You had, uh, SBOK David Kim, who's the chairman of the World Evangelical Alliance. You had, uh, humanitarian Christian organizations like World Vision represented there, plus a plethora of so-called Palestinian theologians. And what they were saying is, is what we've been hearing for 2,000 years. We've been talking about replacement theology and other programs that God has, uh, rejected Israel because Israel rejected the Messiah and replaced Israel with the church. Now, that is replacement theology. But what these guys, and I'll, I'll throw in a few other names, Gary Burge, professor of New Testament, uh, Wheaton College, Illinois; Steven Chalke, very well-known Evangelical Anglican vicar in the UK. What these guys are saying is, "We don't believe that God has replaced Israel with the church. That the church is the fulfillment of Israel. That Jesus is Israel." And I heard Steven Chalke in Bethlehem say, "When Jesus was hanging on the cross, Jesus was Israel." So, they're redefining terms. They're trying to throw off this label of replacement theology. And, and, and what I heard in Bethlehem was this: "Look, we love the Jews." This is what all the evangelicals were saying. "We love the Jewish people, but, but we don't love Israel. We don't recognize that 1948 was a miracle. It was God's bringing together of the nation again in the land. It was a political accident and a catastrophe."
But the name Israel appears over what, a couple thousand times in the Bible? Absolutely. How can you say that you're, you're, you love God and you don't love the things that God loves? God says he loves Israel. Absolutely. "I have loved you with an everlasting love." That's right. You know, Jeremiah 31:3, Hosea 11, "How can I give you up, O Israel?" Well, Romans, look at Romans 10:9 and 10. Yeah. "Has God forsaken his people?" By no means. It's not possible because God would be denying himself, a faithful, covenant-keeping God. Would you call it heresy? It's absolute heresy. But I would go as far as to say it's blasphemous because you're, you're misrepresenting the very heart of God, basically saying God has rejected a people that he chose. The scripture says God's married to Israel. God the Father is married to Israel. This is an affront against his wife, according to God's word. Absolutely. And we read in the prophetic scriptures how God, despite Israel's rebellion and the rejection of the Messiah, God will woo her back through the wilderness. And that will ultimately be through the wilderness of the tribulation period.
So, the, uh, Bethlehem conference, what, what did you see in that?
Well, we, the, the whole conference began with an address by the Palestinian, uh, prime minister, uh, who said, "Welcome to Palestine. You have the opportunity to see what it was like to live under occupation." Now, these guys that are at the conference, on the, in their books, on their websites, their blogs, they accuse Israel of genocide, of ethnically cleansing the Palestinian people, of being an apartheid state. I mean, they, they, they even go so far as to say, "Jesus was a Palestinian refugee who lived under occupation." Yeah, Jesus was a Palestinian. Right. I mean, sorry, but the scriptures say Jesus was a Jew, born a Jew, died a Jew, rose from the dead as a Jew, ascended to the Father's side as a Jew, and he's coming back King of the Jews. King of the Jews. Absolutely.
Mark, well, one of the things I think is interesting, most, a lot of these people, uh, who believe in replace, we still can call it replacement theology. They will say, even men like John Piper will say, and they're very reformed, a lot of them very reformed, very Calvinistic, believe in the sovereignty of God. They'll say, "Well, Israel has no right to be in the land today." Well, my question to them would be, "Well, if they have no right to be there, why are they there?" That's right. Did they get there by good luck, or is it just chance? The fact, if God's sovereign and they're there, then what are they? It must be God's will that they be there. I love it. So, if they're there and it's not God's will for them to be there, then God's not sovereign. So, the fact that they're there means God wants them to be there, and Israel is going to be regathered to the land. The Bible, because they, they'll say, "Well, Israel, they, they don't believe in the Lord. You know, they have no right to be there because they're in unbelief." Well, the Bible tells us that they're going to come to belief in the land. So, if they come to belief in the land, they have to be there to begin with in unbelief. Well, even pre-, even predating that, Ezekiel says that he's going to draw them back into their own land in unbelief, and then the scales will fall from their eyes. So, they have, they're going to be regathered first of all physically to the land, and then ultimately they're going to be restored spiritually to the Lord.
Let me be, uh, devil's advocate here, but you guys are believing the Bible literally. You guys are taking it face value for what it says. All these things, you know, we've got, uh, really to do justice, we have to spiritualize these things. You know, you mentioned what John Piper said. I saw that published just recently about they have no right to the land. Well, now you're tampering with, with spiritualizing the word of God, and, and you go off the rails at that point. Nothing is certain, nothing is sure at that. What's the Abrahamic Covenant? God promised Abraham and his descendants. Says Abraham, "Look up, your eyes, look as far as you can to the east, to the west, look every direction." And in Genesis 13, different from Genesis 12 when he just makes the promise, he says, "I will give this land to you and your descendants forever." Yep. And he goes on and gives the borders of the land, which they have never possessed, not yet. In Genesis 15, he gives the borders of the land they've never possessed that land. And so, if they don't ever possess that land, then what God said is not true.
Well, exactly right. Solomon, if I remember right, Solomon came the closest, but even still, uh, we know because we, you, we guys, we come together, uh, from a pre-millennial view of the word of God. We know that ultimately all of those things will be fulfilled in the physical coming of Jesus Christ to the throne of David, which will be in Jerusalem, which will be the Jerusalem of Israel in the last days.
So, Mark, not too long ago, you were involved in what is, I think, now called "The Great Debate." It took place at Dallas. I saw this. It was amazing. Um, Hank Hanegraaff was there representing the preterist view. And preterism is encroaching upon so many in the world today. I'm going to want you to speak to that. But you were debating Hank Hanegraaff, and I felt terrible for Hank. I mean, it was just a tough time. You did an amazing job. You, you came at it not only from the, from the pastor's perspective, a little bit, but you came from the researcher's side. Your attorney, the Mark Hitchcock, the attorney, kicked in. And, uh, we all watched how Hank actually just folded. He had nowhere to go. And I think that's key. I'm not, I'm not picking on Hank, but Hank became fully aware of the fact that he was standing in Jell-O. And, um, so I just want to ask you, what's the big deal? Why is, uh, the dating of the Book of Revelation so important? What's that all about? Why does it matter?
Well, because preterist, the word preterist, preterism, from the Latin word *praeter*, which means past. And so, they believe that most or all of the prophecies in the New Testament have already happened. And so, they believe the Book of Revelation is a prophecy. So, if it's prophesying the events of 70 AD, the destruction of Jerusalem through the Romans, they actually believe that was the coming of Christ. Christ came through the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. Does that place us then in the Millennium? Sure. Yeah, that's right. We would be in the Millennium. Yet now, according to their, uh, Paul, we're in. That's right. Well, they would say that the Book of Revelation, if it's a prophecy about events in 70 AD, had to be written in 65 AD. Sure, because obviously it can't be written after that. So, if Revelation is written after 70 AD at any point, it can't be a prophecy of events in 70 AD. But the traditional view that's been held through church history, the dominant view, is Revelation was written in 95 AD, near the end of the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian. And so, that's what I wrote my, my PhD dissertation at Dallas Seminary on that. In fact, if people want to read my dissertation or see the debate, they can go to preterism.org, and they can see both of those things there. Because if the Book of Revelation was written in 95 or anytime after 70, then preterism can't be true. That's right. And, you know, the old idea is that any theological, uh, point is only as strong as its weakest link. Yeah. And the weakest link for preterism is the dating of the Book of Revelation. It's the Achilles' heel of that view. Yeah. Everybody has to watch that debate. I was there in 20, uh, 2007 or 2008. 2007, December. Yeah. And, and it was just a privilege to see the Lord use a man like Mark with a, a, a gracious heart, but to present the truth. And that's what he did. When you present the truth of scripture and the truth of history, error falls down every time. And I felt very sorry for Hank Hanegraaff. It was embarrassing the way he crumbled in that debate.
Well, and I got to tell you, and this is almost terrible to admit, but when I saw his wheels come off his chariot, I was, I wanted to jump into the, you know, in there to give him a Band-Aid or something. Though I totally, completely disagree with what he believes, but you stayed at it. I mean, it was amazing. I love what you just said, Paul, because you, you stayed on the kill, so to speak, and, and he, the poor man, just came apart. But he was representing, uh, such a, a terrible false doctrine that undermines, uh, ultimately, for me, the blessed hope. Yeah. I mean, it is really serious. And yet churches are teaching this stuff, and the pastors are not walking up to the pulpit and saying, "Hey, everybody, we're going to pollute you this morning with the preterist view." They sow it like tears in the field. It's being planted, and people, it's there. A lot. Yeah. And the problem with that is too, when you develop it, when you don't, when you don't interpret the Bible with a consistent literal hermeneutic or consistent literal method of interpretation, and one of the keys there is consistent, because they do it a bit, and then when it doesn't fit, they lapse back into an allegorical, spiritualizing. When you do that, the problem is that bleeds over then potentially to other areas, sure, of our interpretation. It's really, it, it can be very, it's very dangerous. It's almost, uh, as the, the dam is opening up. It's open. You're not going to be shutting it. It's, it's opening up. And, and so, you're right, it, it translates itself into other areas, and then you start going askew. Because Hank and those that are holding to the preterist view, they, they're askew in other areas. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I listened to Hank, um, interviewing Gary Burge, and they, they really wanted to promote this new DVD documentary called "With God on Our Side," that was produced by Porter Speakman Jr., an Evangelical Christian, uh, that was shown in, in Bethlehem at the conference. It's toward the States, it's toward the United Kingdom. And, and it's basically slamming Christians that take a literal hermeneutic, that just believe what God has said concerning his purposes and concerning the events relating to the, the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord has a throne, that's his right, and he's coming to claim that throne. He's coming to, you know, receive the, the glory of the nations. And, and, and what Satan is doing through preterism, through all these strands of errant theology, replacement theology, fulfillment theology, liberation theology, he is getting the church completely distracted from what we're called to do, which is to look and wait and expect and right and recognize the signs of our Lord's coming. You know, I, I came to know the Lord simply. Um, there was no external weirdness. And I guess what I'm saying by that is, I had no church upbringing that was askew or stranger word. I had no church upbringing. If you sit down and just begin reading the Bible without any external input, the Holy Spirit will teach you from the word of God. And if you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it's very clear to the reader that Jesus is King. He's coming back, and he's going to return to a country called Israel that has a capital called Jerusalem. And we're not drumming this up right now. Well, you guys are just a bunch of pro-Zionists. What does that have to do with anything? I guess if we are pro-Zionists, it's because the Bible is pro-Zion. That's it. And, you know, we're not, we're not bringing in some sort of a bent twist or or political agenda. It's what the Bible says if you take it literally. Mhm. Yeah. And so, and what these guys will do is say, you know, "We are relegating the church. We are putting Israel in such a place that the church is secondary. The church is just a parenthesis in God's plan." But no, what we're saying is, God has not finished with Israel. He's got a great plan. He will be glorified, as he says to Israel through Ezekiel in the end chapters 36, 37, 38, 39. He will be glorified in the sight of the nations. But we, as Christians, we're saying, "No, Jesus is coming. We're going to be caught up. We're going to be taken out of here to the Father's house. Tribulation is coming. God's wrath is coming. And the epicenter of that tribulation period is Jerusalem. It is Israel. It's the Temple Mount." So, we're putting the church first, trying to get the church to be ready as the bride for the bridegroom, and then give this message to Israel and the world: Jesus is coming back to his own people, to his own nation, and they will be restored.
Two things: Why would someone embrace preterism, and then what's the fruit of it? Ultimately, is the, what's the hope of it all?
Well, preterism, I, you know, it's been gaining a lot of popularity. You get on the internet, and you put in preterism or preterist, there are thousands upon thousands of websites. I get emails all the time, literally, I get them weekly from preterists sending them to me and, you know, challenging me on this or that. There, there, it's, it's very popular out there today. And I've asked myself that question, what's, why is it popular? I think several reasons I've come to. One is, there are a lot of people who claim to be futurists, you know, to take these prophecies futuristically, who didn't really understand the futurist view. And so, they hear some of this, and it's easy then for them to to come into that. I'm not sure a lot of people, they say, "Well, I used to believe this way." I'm not sure how well they understood it. Another reason I think that that people go this direction, some people just kind of have a natural bent of whatever's popular. Like, you know, "Left Behind" is out there, and they kind of get the idea that, you know, whatever's popular like that, I don't really want to be a part of that. They're kind of drawn to other things. And I'm not saying everyone's that way, but I think there can be that psychological element. Another thing is, you know, there are some well-known people who are espousing this view. R.C. Sproul is a partial preterist. He still believes in a future Second Coming, resurrection, and a judgment, anyway. Yeah, that's right. But, but, uh, you know, when men like that take a view like that, it, it influences people. So, those are some of the reasons why I see, you know, people kind of being drawn to this view. Um, but, you know, as far as the dangers to it go, one of the things is, is it does it totally blunt the, the hope of the Lord's return at any moment? Right. Exactly. They don't, they don't talk about prophecy really. They don't talk about the Lord's coming. They, they talk about all these things in the past tense. And we are to live looking, according to the scriptures. I mean, and, you know, you, you live for what you look for in life. You know, when you're getting ready to get your driver's license, or you're getting ready to get married, or you're going to have a grandchild, right, or you're looking to retirement, or whatever it is, you live for what you look for. And they're not looking for the blessed hope and the coming of Christ. And, and to me, it changes the way I live to get up in the morning and say, "Perhaps today could be the day that Jesus comes." It affects how we live. You know, I love that John in First John, John says that, um, "It does not yet appear what we will be like, but we know this: that when we see him, we will be like him. And all those who have this hope purify themselves, even as Christ is pure." It affects how you live. I love how you put that. Yeah. Yeah. That, that is the whole purpose of, of, of the scriptures. It's not just to inform us. It's not just to, to fill our minds with a doctrinal system. It's to touch our hearts. It's to tenderize our hearts towards the Lord. And, and to be, you know, having our hearts filled with the things that are in his heart. And that's what we're talking about. The things that are dear to the Lord, uh, he is impressing upon us. And, you know, when we're talking about preterism, we're talking about Christian Palestinianism, replacement theology, we're not, we're not condemning these, these guys. You know, many of them are brothers in Christ. We, we're saying this is dangerous. This is, this is an end times agenda that Satan is, is playing out in the church. And we are trying to appeal to our brothers and sisters in Christ to say, "Get out of that. Get out of that and get back into the scriptures and let the Lord by his Spirit show you."
I love what you just said, Paul. This is a big deal, Mark. Pastor in the church, this is a big deal because do we really believe we're living in the last days? And you will say, "Oh, yes, we do." Okay. Part of the last days, a great danger of the last days is deception. And but we don't want to, you know, we don't want to talk about deception. You know, it's kind of like, what if we have to point fingers? So, we shy away from it. We're almost, we teach it, but we avoid the pastoral mandate to, uh, to protect the flock. And so, in, I think, in the name of tolerance, in the name of love, uh, pastors are allowing this kind of junk to creep in. And it all starts with, I mean, we've seen this. We've had to defend our churches against this, where it starts with maybe a men's group, somebody, somebody shares in the men's group, or maybe in the women's ministry, someone shares in this devotion. It just wiggles its way in in the slightest area and begins to become some sort of a, of a word among the church. And this is what we've experienced. Is eventually the pastor's got to step in. If he's a real shepherd, he's got to step in and and address it. That causes division. The church will split. And the, the church that's being led by the word will continue. And then that group goes off. And what do we see happening? Within a year or less, they dry up and fade away. And Satan rejoices. He's got a victory. He'll take some. If he can't take all, abolish.
The problem, one of the key problems with preterism, I see as well, is again, a lot of people start out as being what's called a partial preterist. They still believe in a literal Second Coming, a literal resurrection, literal judgment. But the problem is, they're inconsistent. Because those partial preterists, they catch it from the full preterists and from our side as well. They're kind of, they're inconsistent. And what I see happen, many people start out as partial preterists, and they start to inch more to full. And the problem with full preterism is they don't believe in a literal Second Coming. They think it's already happened. That's it. They don't believe in a future resurrection. They think when you die and go to heaven, that's the resurrection. There's no final judgment. And that's, that's heretical. Heretical view. That's where it can go. Absolutely. It's like having a little rattlesnake in your house. Yes. Okay. It's a rattlesnake. It's going to grow. It's going to grow. It's going to affect the way that you, it's leaven, isn't it? You don't get that leaven out when it's there. And when it appears and you recognize it, then it's going to spread. It's going to spread. And then the more it spreads, the more difficult it is to get it out. And that's the problem. When people get sucked into this, they really get rooted into it. It's very hard. There's a blindness, a spiritual blindness, that only the Lord can remove. And that, and that's what we pray for. We pray in our church. I'm sure you do. I know you do in your church. Is I'm the only non-pastor around this table, but my pastor, a true shepherd, has stood and he said, "No, we will not allow leaven. We will not allow this error." Because he loves the sheep. The beautiful thing about your pastor, and what we're doing too, is when you release that information to the body, we will not allow this. You know what's great? It empowers the godly believers in the church to also be watchmen. They're caring, they're helping you tend the flock. And that's, that's a glorious thing.
Um, guys, it's great, uh, Dr. Paul, Dr. Mark, having you guys. I'm the only non-doctor here, so I'm your patient. I take it. But it's, it's just great. God is using you guys mightily. I mean, I think I travel a lot, and it's nothing compared to what God is using you guys to just reach the world. And Mark, your books, God has just taken your books and made them bestsellers. It's amazing. Great. And, uh, you're, you're the young guy, you're the baby at this table. And God is just raising you up and doing great things. And we're just trying to serve the Lord as part of his body. And, um, yeah, it's a privilege, isn't it, to belong to Jesus and just represent him wherever he would take us? And you're doing a great job. I love the way the Lord providentially brings people's lives together. I met you at the pre-trip conference a few years ago, and God has brought our lives together and encouraged us. It's wonderful. I meet so many men like that over, over time, and our hearts are knit together, and it's a wonderful thing. And you are a blessing to us. You're an encouragement to us, Pastor Jack. You know, we're praying for you, and you just keep standing. That's awesome. We'll do this together. Yeah. God bless you guys very much. It's [Music] great.
So, it does matter what you believe, and it matters how you believe, and what you do with what you believe. Jesus said that we need to be careful not only what we believe, but how we believe what we hear and how we hear. And so, maybe now's the time when you see how such detailed information the Bible gives us, how critical salvation is. Now, if you don't know God personally through Jesus Christ, maybe you're very religious. You need to stop and and kind of think for a moment. God is specific. He, he wants to know you personally. And I want to ask you, you ask yourself, "Do you know God intimately and personally?" You can know him right now by simply asking the Lord Jesus Christ, who the Bible says not only came into this world based upon the prophetic word of God, the prophecies of the Bible, on the dates that God had prescribed, in the very town, in the very manger, that God had pre-ordained by the ancient Hebrew prophets, but that he would be the one who would die on the cross for your sins. He said that if you called out to him, you would experience salvation. Pray this prayer with me and mean it: "Dear Lord Jesus, come into my life. I believe you died on the cross and rose again from the grave. I'm receiving you now. I confess my sins. Thank you for dying for me, Jesus. Live your life through me now. In your name, I pray. Amen." Listen, this is a vital, forever, life-changing commitment that you just made. We'd love to hear from you. And remember this: it's our hope that through Jesus Christ, you will know real [Music] life.
In the Bible, God is clear. He says to Abraham, the father of the Jewish people, "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you. And in you, all the families of the earth shall be blessed." The United States, a nation who has historically been a supporter of Israel, is perhaps the greatest example of God blessing a nation. However, as of late, do you feel that the tide is changing? Will our political leaders continue to support Israel? What about our churches? We hear some pretty influential voices stating that God is finished with Israel. Will there be consequences? In this timely, relevant message, Jack Hibbs opens the scriptures to reveal God's heart toward His chosen people and the land of Israel. Order the DVD now, "Stand with Israel," by visiting reallifewithjackhibbs.org or call 877-777-2346. That's 877-723-46. Or write to Real Life with Jack Hibbs, P.O. Box 1273, Chino Hills, California 91709. Jack Hibbs truly believes we are living in some of the most exciting days in history, which brings some great opportunities to share with the world a powerful, no-nonsense presentation of the Gospel to this generation who is searching for answers and truth. Will you stand with us in sharing this message in real and practical ways? We ask that you commit to support Real Life each month with a gift of your choosing. In return, our gift to you for becoming a Real Life partner, we'd like to say send you this worldview DVD. It's titled "What You Believe Defines You." Call now, 1-877-777-2346. That's 877-723-46. Or by mail, P.O. Box 1273, Chino Hills, California 91709. Or simply go to reallifewithjackhibbs.org. Your gift will be faithfully put to work because it's our desire that through Jesus Christ, you will know real [Music] life. [Music] n [Music] [Music]
are allowing this kind of junk to creep in, and it all starts with. I mean, we've seen this. We've had to defend our churches against this, where it starts with maybe a men's group. Somebody, somebody shares in the men's group, or maybe in the women's ministry, someone shares in this devotion. It just wiggles its way in in the slightest area and begins to become some sort of a, of a word among the church. And this is what we've experienced. Eventually, the pastor's got to step in. If he's a real Shepherd, he's got to step in and and address it. That causes division. The church will split, and the the church that's being led by the word will continue. And then that group goes off. And what do we see happening within a year or less? They dry up and fade away, and Satan rejoices. He's got a victory. He'll take some if he can't take all.
AB, yeah, the problem, one of the key problems with prism, I see as well, is again, a lot of people start out as being what's called a partial prist. They still believe in a literal Second Coming, a literal Resurrection, literal judgment. But the problem is, they're inconsistent. Because those partial predus, they catch it from the full predus and from our side as well. They're kind of, they're inconsistent. And what I see happen, many people start out as partial predators, and they start to inch more to full. And the problem with full prism is, they don't believe in a literal Second Coming. They think it's already happened. They don't believe in a future Resurrection. They think when you die and go to heaven, the resurrection, there's no final judgment. And that's, that's heretical. A heretical view. That's where it can go. Absolutely. It's like having a little rattlesnake in your house. Yes. Okay, it's a rattlesnake. It's going to grow. It's going to grow. It's going to affect the way that you think. It's leaven, isn't it? You don't get that leaven out when it's there. And when it appears, and you recognize it, then it's going to spread. It's going to spread. And then the more it spreads, the more difficult it is to get it out. And that's the problem. When people get sucked into this, they really get rooted into it. It's very hard. There's a blindness, a spiritual blindness, that only the Lord can remove. And and that's what we pray for. We pray in our church. I'm sure you do. I know you do in your church. I'm the only non-pastor around this table, but my pastor, a true Shepherd, has has stood and he said, no, we will not allow leaven. We will not allow this error because he loves the sheep. The beautiful thing about your pastor, and what we're doing too, is when you release that information to the body, we will not allow this. You know what's great? It empowers the godly believers in the church to also be Watchmen. They're caring, they're helping you tend the flock. And that's, that's a glorious thing.
Um, guys, it's great. Uh, Dr. Paul, Dr. Mark, having you guys. I'm the only non-doctor here, so I'm your patient. I take it. But it's, it's just great. God is using you guys mightily. I mean, I think I travel a lot, and it's nothing compared to what God is using you guys to just reach the world. And Mark, your books, God has just taken your books and making them bestsellers. It's amazing. Great. And, uh, you're, you're the young guy, you're the baby at this table. And God is just raising you up and doing great things. And we're just trying to serve the Lord as part of his body. And, um, yeah, it's a privilege, isn't it? To belong to Jesus and and just represent him wherever he would take us. And you're doing a great job. Well, I love the way the Lord's providentially brings people's lives together. I met you at the pre-trip conference a few years ago, and God providentially brings people into our lives to help us and encourage us. And it's wonderful. I meet so many men like that over over time, and our hearts are knit together, and it's a wonderful thing. And you are a blessing to us. You're an encouragement to us, Pastor Jack. You know, we're praying for you, and you just keep standing. That's awesome. We'll do this together. Yeah. God bless you guys very much. Believe what God has said concerning His purposes and concerning the events relating to the the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord has a throne, that's His right, and He's coming to claim that throne. He's coming to, you know, receive the the glory of the nations. And and and what Satan is doing through preterism, through all these strands of errant theology, replacement theology, fulfillment theology, liberation theology, he is getting the church completely distracted from what we're called to do, which is to look and wait and expect and and recognize the signs of our Lord's coming. You know, I, I, I came to know the Lord simply. Um, there was no external weirdness. And I guess what I'm saying by that is, I had no church upbringing that was askew or stranger word. I had no church upbringing. If you sit down and just begin reading the Bible without any external input, the Holy Spirit will teach you from the word of God. And if you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it's very clear to the reader that Jesus is King. He's coming back, and He's going to return to a country called Israel that has a capital called Jerusalem. And we're not drumming this up right now. Well, you guys are just a bunch of pro-Zionists. What does that have to do with anything? I guess if we are pro-Zionists, it's because the Bible is pro-Zion. MH. That's. And you know, we're not, we're not bringing in some sort of a bent twist or or political agenda. It's what the Bible says if you take it literally. And so, and what these guys will do is say, you know, we are relegating the church, we are putting Israel in such a place that the church is secondary, the church is just a parenthesis in God's plan. But no, what we're saying is God has not finished with Israel. He's got a great plan. He's going to be glorified, as He says to Israel through Ezekiel in the end, chapter 36, 37, 38, 39. He will be glorified in the sight of the nations. But we as Christians, we're saying, no, Jesus is coming. We're going to be caught up. We're going to be taken out of here to the Father's house. Tribulation is coming. God's wrath is coming. And the epicenter of that tribulation period is Jerusalem. It is Israel. It's the Temple Mount. So we're putting the church first, trying to get the church to be ready as the bride for the bridegroom, and then give this message to Israel and the world. Jesus is coming back to His own people, to His own nation, and they will be restored.
Two things. Why would, why would someone embrace prism? And then what's the fruit of it? What ultimately is the, what's the hope of it all? Well, prism, I, you know, it's been gaining a lot of popularity. You get on the internet and you put in prism or pred, there are thousands upon thousands of websites. I get emails all the time, literally, I get them weekly from predus sending them to me, and, you know, challenging me on this or that. There, there, it's, it's very popular out there today. And I've asked myself that question, what's, why is it popular? I think several reasons I've come to. One is, there are a lot of people who claim claim to be futurists, you know, to take these prophecies futuristically, who didn't really understand the futurist view. Yeah. And so they hear some of this, and it's easy then for them to to to come into that. I'm not sure a lot of people, they say, well, I used to believe this way. I'm not sure how well they understood it. Another reason I think that that people go this direction, some people just kind of have a natural bent of whatever is popular. Like, you know, Left Behind is out there, and they kind of get the idea that, you know, whatever's popular like that, I don't really want to be a part of that. They're kind of drawn to other things. And I'm not saying everyone's that way, but I think there can be that psychological element. Another thing is, you know, there's some well-known people who are espousing this view. RC Sproul is a partial prist. He still believes in a future Second Coming, resurrection, and a judgment. Anyway, yeah, that's right. But but, uh, you know, when men like that take a view like that, it it influences people. So those are some of the reasons why I see, you know, people kind of being drawn to this view. Um, but, you know, as far as the dangers to it go, one of the things is it, it does it totally blunts the the the hope of of the Lord's return at any moment. Right. Exactly. They don't, they don't talk about prophecy really. They don't talk about the Lord's coming. They they talk about all these things in the past tense. And we are to live looking according to the scriptures. I mean, and, you know, you you live for what you look for in life. You when you're getting ready to get your driver's license, or you're getting ready to get married, or you're going to have a grandchild, or you're looking to retirement, or whatever it is, you live for for what you look for. And they're not looking for the Blessed Hope and the coming of Christ. And it, and to me, it changes the way I live to get up in the morning and say, perhaps today could be the day that Jesus comes. It affects how we live. You know, I love that John in First John, John says that, um, it does not yet appear what we will be like, but we know this, that when we see Him, we will be like Him. And all those who have this hope purify themselves, even as Christ is pure. It affects how you live. I love how you put that. Yeah. Yeah. That that is the whole purpose of of of the scriptures. It's not just.